RE: t-and-f: Oregon coach claims sex bias
"Also, notice that they didn't really specify if the "comparable assistants" were in different sports. My guess is the assistant track coaches aren't getting free cars and double her salary. Football, quite likely. Apples and oranges, though." >From memory of a grad school paper according to the Equal Pay Act (EPA) relating to >coaches in educational institutions the comparator does not need to be in the same >sport to be "substantially equal" as the EPA requires. A comparator does not have to >teach the same physical skills. The comparator only has to have substantially equal >skill, effort, responsibility and working conditions. Skill includes things like >education, training, experience, and ability. Effort deals with the amount of work >that actually has to be done such as administrative duties, coaching the athletes, >recruiting, fundraising, etc.. Responsibility deals with the accountability in the >job such as being responsible for X number of athletes, being responsible for the >budget, being responsible to produce a winning record, being responsible for bringing >in X dollars or fans to events, or any number of other items. Working conditions >deals with basically what it says, the conditions you work in from f! acilities to having a staff to help. Even then if those are all considered to be substantially equal the comparators marketplace value and previous employment wage can be a defense for paying a coach more. Market rate value can not be used though. However I don't think Lance Deal could be a comparator for pay discrimination since he did not work at Oregon as a paid assistant when she did. A football coach would also not be a comparator for her too because their jobs are not substantially equal for lots of reasons besides being in different sports. Specifically for her at $35,000 she was making about $17,000 above the NCAA average assistant coaches salary for a female coach and about $5000 above the average for a male asst. coach. She was only about $3000 below the average head coaches salary for a female head coach and with her new salary at $50,000 she was going to be making well above the average. It looks like she was being paid well compared to the averages but w! ho knows what averages are at Oregon. Only the practices at O! regon ca n be used in this case because the EPA works on comparisons only within the workplace in question, not with industry averages. Employers are more than free to underpay their employees as long as they are underpaying all of them fairly not based on gender. Overall in the NCAA males are still bringing in 76% of the NCAA assistant coaches salaries and 60% of the head coaches salaries. Although a lot of the discrepancies likely come from the large salaries of football and men's basketball coaches who have jobs that would not be legally deemed substaintially equal to very many women's sport coaches for many reasons. In the hiring discrimination claim as long as Oregon can give a defense not associated with gender for hiring Deal over the previous women's coach then they will likely win the case. Some things that help him get paid more include his marketplace value which I would think is high because of his name recognition in recruiting. Other than that I would need speci! fics for each coach to determine the rest. In the long run whether the former women's coach wins the case or not most people who file a claim like this and leave their current job have a hard time finding a new job. That's just the cold, hard reality of filing a sex dicrimination case. Her best hope is that they force Oregon to re-hire her. I'm no lawyer, but I hope all my facts were straight and this was interesting. --- tafnut <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > If she was paid less than comparible assistants, then she has a good > claim regarding past compensation; however, she probably should lose her > claim on losing out on the weight event coach position based on Lance's > longer, better, and more current athletic career. > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Nov 13, 2003 10:20 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: t-and-f: Oregon coach claims sex bias > > Former Oregon coach and national javelin champion > claims she got a raw deal when Lance Deal was named > throws coach for the recently combined men's and women's > track program. > > full story at: > > http://www.registerguard.com/news/2003/11/13/a1.sp.sallyharmoncase.1113.html > >Jim Tysell > = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design & Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity
Re: t-and-f: Headline - Games opened to transsexual athletes
Do you have a name? If so, use it. tafnut wrote: Are you a doctor? Let the medical experts decide. Open your mind a bit: if the experts say they will be competing on a equal footing, then we should trust they have the best of the Olympic movement in mind which means that everyone should have the opportunity to compete. -Original Message- From: "Wayne T. Armbrust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Nov 15, 2003 7:36 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: Headline - Games opened to transsexual athletes This is absolutely absurd, terminal political correctness. A male to female (so-called) transsexual, even after undergoing hormone therapy, will still have much higher strength indexes than women. Can the IOC cram this down the throat of the IAAF? Stella Franci wrote: Dear Track & Field, Stella Franci wants you to know about a story on http://www.smh.com.au. The online edition of The Sydney Morning Herald brings you updated local and world news, sports results, entertainment news and reviews and the latest technology information. Click here to sign up for early morning news alerts from The Sydney Morning Herald newsroom. http://www.smh.com.au/newsletters/subscription.html Personal Message: Games opened to transsexual athletes November 15, 2003 URL: http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/11/14/1068674387895.html -- Wayne T. Armbrust, Ph.D. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Computomarx (TM) 3604 Grant Ct. Columbia MO 65203-5800 USA (573) 445-6675 (voice & FAX) http://www.Computomarx.com "Know the difference between right and wrong... Always give your best effort... Treat others the way you'd like to be treated..." - Coach Bill Sudeck (1926-2000)
Re: t-and-f: Headline - Games opened to transsexual athletes
You know what I meant about "everyone having the opportunity". Even you at 47 have the opportunity: if at 47 you can meet the minimum standards (qualifying and finishing in the top 3 at the trials), you should be able to compete (assuming you don't test positive for THG). Hell, Edwin Moses is giving it a shot. What if they find out a certain race of people have a physiologically significant advantage in a certain sport or event? Should they be disqualified from competing? And before you say that if it is a natural advantage, all the power to them. Transsexual people don't feel natural as the sex they were born as, so they need the sex change operation so they can feel comfortable with their own gender like the rest of us. That is what is natural for them. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Nov 15, 2003 1:22 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: Headline - Games opened to transsexual athletes On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 11:42:38 -0800 (GMT-08:00), [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >Are you a doctor? Yes, as a matter of fact Wayne IS a doctor! >Let the medical experts decide. Open your mind a bit: if the >experts say they will be competing on a equal footing, then >we should trust they have the best of the Olympic movement >in mind which means that everyone should have the >opportunity to compete. People have to earn my trust- I don't give it away. And lately the IOC isn't exactly on a hot streak of proving that they have ANYBODY'S best interest in mind except their own wallet and political power. >which means that everyone should have the opportunity to >compete. Hey that means I can compete next year in Atlanta too, at age 47! After all you don't want politically incorrect age discrimination do you? Or discrimination against the fitness-challenged? No, let EVERYONE compete. Just give everybody world wide the same day off every four years, to go out to the nearest track, and call it an 'everybody participates' Olympics. This is garbage and you know it. Life is full of choices. If Michael Johnson chose to have somebody chop off his Johnson, he could no longer compete as MJ. ..h RT
RE: t-and-f: Oregon coach claims sex bias
Actually, you're missing out on the subtext here. The University of Oregon's athletic department has become increasingly under attack by disgruntled ex-coaches - mostly women. They claim inequality, threaten to file suit unless they get a raise, then University backs down. The end result is the University becomes stuck with expensive, disgruntled coaches and it affects performance. On the other hand, the U of O has made their own bed malmo -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of tafnut Sent: Saturday, November 15, 2003 2:51 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: Oregon coach claims sex bias If she was paid less than comparible assistants, then she has a good claim regarding past compensation; however, she probably should lose her claim on losing out on the weight event coach position based on Lance's longer, better, and more current athletic career. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Nov 13, 2003 10:20 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: t-and-f: Oregon coach claims sex bias Former Oregon coach and national javelin champion claims she got a raw deal when Lance Deal was named throws coach for the recently combined men's and women's track program. full story at: http://www.registerguard.com/news/2003/11/13/a1.sp.sallyharmoncase.1113. html Jim Tysell
Re: t-and-f: Oregon coach claims sex bias
Also, notice that they didn't really specify if the "comparable assistants" were in different sports. My guess is the assistant track coaches aren't getting free cars and double her salary. Football, quite likely. Apples and oranges, though. Dan --- tafnut <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > If she was paid less than comparible assistants, then she has a good > claim regarding past compensation; however, she probably should lose her > claim on losing out on the weight event coach position based on Lance's > longer, better, and more current athletic career. > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Nov 13, 2003 10:20 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: t-and-f: Oregon coach claims sex bias > > Former Oregon coach and national javelin champion > claims she got a raw deal when Lance Deal was named > throws coach for the recently combined men's and women's > track program. > > full story at: > > http://www.registerguard.com/news/2003/11/13/a1.sp.sallyharmoncase.1113.html > >Jim Tysell > = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design & Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree
Re: t-and-f: Headline - Games opened to transsexual athletes
On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 11:42:38 -0800 (GMT-08:00), [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >Are you a doctor? Yes, as a matter of fact Wayne IS a doctor! >Let the medical experts decide. Open your mind a bit: if the >experts say they will be competing on a equal footing, then >we should trust they have the best of the Olympic movement >in mind which means that everyone should have the >opportunity to compete. People have to earn my trust- I don't give it away. And lately the IOC isn't exactly on a hot streak of proving that they have ANYBODY'S best interest in mind except their own wallet and political power. >which means that everyone should have the opportunity to >compete. Hey that means I can compete next year in Atlanta too, at age 47! After all you don't want politically incorrect age discrimination do you? Or discrimination against the fitness-challenged? No, let EVERYONE compete. Just give everybody world wide the same day off every four years, to go out to the nearest track, and call it an 'everybody participates' Olympics. This is garbage and you know it. Life is full of choices. If Michael Johnson chose to have somebody chop off his Johnson, he could no longer compete as MJ. ..h RT
Re: t-and-f: Oregon coach claims sex bias
If she was paid less than comparible assistants, then she has a good claim regarding past compensation; however, she probably should lose her claim on losing out on the weight event coach position based on Lance's longer, better, and more current athletic career. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Nov 13, 2003 10:20 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: t-and-f: Oregon coach claims sex bias Former Oregon coach and national javelin champion claims she got a raw deal when Lance Deal was named throws coach for the recently combined men's and women's track program. full story at: http://www.registerguard.com/news/2003/11/13/a1.sp.sallyharmoncase.1113.html Jim Tysell
Re: t-and-f: Headline - Games opened to transsexual athletes
Are you a doctor? Let the medical experts decide. Open your mind a bit: if the experts say they will be competing on a equal footing, then we should trust they have the best of the Olympic movement in mind which means that everyone should have the opportunity to compete. -Original Message- From: "Wayne T. Armbrust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Nov 15, 2003 7:36 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: Headline - Games opened to transsexual athletes This is absolutely absurd, terminal political correctness. A male to female (so-called) transsexual, even after undergoing hormone therapy, will still have much higher strength indexes than women. Can the IOC cram this down the throat of the IAAF? Stella Franci wrote: >Dear Track & Field, > >Stella Franci wants you to know about a story on http://www.smh.com.au. The online >edition of The Sydney Morning Herald brings you updated local and world news, sports >results, entertainment news and reviews and the latest technology information. > >Click here to sign up for early morning news alerts from The Sydney Morning Herald >newsroom. http://www.smh.com.au/newsletters/subscription.html > >Personal Message: > > >Games opened to transsexual athletes > >November 15, 2003 > >URL: http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/11/14/1068674387895.html > > > > > -- Wayne T. Armbrust, Ph.D. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Computomarx (TM) 3604 Grant Ct. Columbia MO 65203-5800 USA (573) 445-6675 (voice & FAX) http://www.Computomarx.com "Know the difference between right and wrong... Always give your best effort... Treat others the way you'd like to be treated..." - Coach Bill Sudeck (1926-2000)
Re: t-and-f: Headline - Games opened to transsexual athletes
No problem, just let them in then suspend them. Turn positive PR into negative PR ... best of both worlds. Dan --- "Martin J. Dixon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Won't some of the drug tests be skewed? > > "Wayne T. Armbrust" wrote: > > > This is absolutely absurd, terminal political correctness. A male to > > female (so-called) transsexual, even after undergoing hormone therapy, > > will still have much higher strength indexes than women. Can the IOC > > cram this down the throat of the IAAF? > > > = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design & Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree
RE: t-and-f: Headline - Games opened to transsexual athletes
Also, wasn't gender testing stopped years ago? I suppose the ultimate political correctness would be to eliminate separate male and female events. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Martin J. Dixon Sent: Saturday, November 15, 2003 9:01 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: Headline - Games opened to transsexual athletes Won't some of the drug tests be skewed? "Wayne T. Armbrust" wrote: > This is absolutely absurd, terminal political correctness. A male to > female (so-called) transsexual, even after undergoing hormone therapy, > will still have much higher strength indexes than women. Can the IOC > cram this down the throat of the IAAF? >
Re: t-and-f: Headline - Games opened to transsexual athletes
Won't some of the drug tests be skewed? "Wayne T. Armbrust" wrote: > This is absolutely absurd, terminal political correctness. A male to > female (so-called) transsexual, even after undergoing hormone therapy, > will still have much higher strength indexes than women. Can the IOC > cram this down the throat of the IAAF? >
Re: t-and-f: Headline - Games opened to transsexual athletes
This is absolutely absurd, terminal political correctness. A male to female (so-called) transsexual, even after undergoing hormone therapy, will still have much higher strength indexes than women. Can the IOC cram this down the throat of the IAAF? Stella Franci wrote: Dear Track & Field, Stella Franci wants you to know about a story on http://www.smh.com.au. The online edition of The Sydney Morning Herald brings you updated local and world news, sports results, entertainment news and reviews and the latest technology information. Click here to sign up for early morning news alerts from The Sydney Morning Herald newsroom. http://www.smh.com.au/newsletters/subscription.html Personal Message: Games opened to transsexual athletes November 15, 2003 URL: http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/11/14/1068674387895.html -- Wayne T. Armbrust, Ph.D. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Computomarx (TM) 3604 Grant Ct. Columbia MO 65203-5800 USA (573) 445-6675 (voice & FAX) http://www.Computomarx.com "Know the difference between right and wrong... Always give your best effort... Treat others the way you'd like to be treated..." - Coach Bill Sudeck (1926-2000)
Re: t-and-f: NYTimes.com Article: Results of Steroid Testing Spur Baseball to Set Tougher Rules
If he is, he needs a new captain! :-)bob >From: "Wayne T. Armbrust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >This meaningless exercise in public deception should be exposed for >the hypocrisy it is at every opportunity. Are you listing, Craig? Frustrated with dial-up? Get high-speed for as low as $26.95.* * Prices may vary by service area
t-and-f: Headline - Games opened to transsexual athletes
Dear Track & Field, Stella Franci wants you to know about a story on http://www.smh.com.au. The online edition of The Sydney Morning Herald brings you updated local and world news, sports results, entertainment news and reviews and the latest technology information. Click here to sign up for early morning news alerts from The Sydney Morning Herald newsroom. http://www.smh.com.au/newsletters/subscription.html Personal Message: Games opened to transsexual athletes November 15, 2003 URL: http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/11/14/1068674387895.html
