Re: [Talk-us] Rail westerly
this is where we need rail fans or rail professionals to correct us where we are wrong, as the structure of the network is what we are defining with these tags (main and branch), Oak Ridge National Laboratory: ... Railroad Network is a representation of the North American railroad system that contains every railroad route in the US, Canada, and Mexico that has been active since 1993. It is intended for logical network programming, traffic analyses, and mapping applications. Corporate structure, a key to the simulation of routing, is explicitly temporal, allowing historical studies and comparisons. Supporting data on interlines and corporate ancestry allow the construction of routable networks for a specific target date. The network is an extension of the Federal Railroad Administration's strategic network. Michael Patrick Geospatial Analyst ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Rail westerly
Michael Patrick writes: (about the Oak Ridge National Laboratory: ... Railroad Network data). I found these at: http://www-cta.ornl.gov/transnet/RailRoads.html And have downloaded (~10 megabytes) a zipped shapefile of the entire network (as well as the simplified 7 megabyte one which omits inactive lines and contains only current operators, but incorporates interlines as network links.) I knew there had to be something like this in the public domain, and I say thank you very much, Michael. I examine these in JOSM right now. First they need to be unzipped, and it looks like the (provided on that web page) PRJ file to change from WGS 84 (default) to either NAD 27 or 83 projection is required. I haven't done that to these data in the instant case, but I've fiddled these before and I think it is doable. Results in JOSM (after many seconds of load time) -- and JOSM MUST have the Shapefile plug-in -- do indeed display a nationwide network of rail lines. A sample one I chose (UP's Coast line in California, which I believe I have gotten mostly correct in OSM recently) has 30 rather cryptic (at first blush) tags, but these indeed look to be usable data. Geographically, yes, the rail line looks about correct though the tag structure will have to be seriously harmonized to become something to import into OSM. This starts to move (quickly) into the direction of a major import (and all its required vetting, etc.) into OSM. I ask others to help me determine the suitability of whether we might want to use these data. I imagine a fair bit of work would be required to harmonize the 30 tags into those we might deem appropriate for USA rail in OSM, as well as strategies for conflating them with existing TIGER rail data. It's a big, big, BIG job. On the other hand, I could see small segments in these data that interest local mappers being used to confirm names or actual track locations for existing data on a line-by-line basis, too. Thanks for really good discussion about this, Charlotte stepping up to make a wiki page, Michael's reference to these data and the great volunteer, cooperative and collaborative spirits we find in OSM here in the USA. SteveA California ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Rail westerly
Steve, Thanks to Michael for a great find and to you for trying to make it usable in OSM. It will be interesting to see what comes out of it. Sounds like we should hold off on any wiki work for a while. There is much data to examine, and I'm already doing stuff for HOT. I'd like to take a look at the materials for Arizona just to see if their names for lines correspond to what I'm seeing already from TIGER. Like I said before, we have time to make sure we're doing this right. Charlotte At 11:24 AM 12/31/2014, you wrote: Michael Patrick writes: (about the Oak Ridge National Laboratory: ... Railroad Network data). I found these at: http://www-cta.ornl.gov/transnet/RailRoads.html And have downloaded (~10 megabytes) a zipped shapefile of the entire network (as well as the simplified 7 megabyte one which omits inactive lines and contains only current operators, but incorporates interlines as network links.) I knew there had to be something like this in the public domain, and I say thank you very much, Michael. I'll examine these in JOSM right now. First they need to be unzipped, and it looks like the (provided on that web page) PRJ file to change from WGS 84 (default) to either NAD 27 or 83 projection is required. I haven't done that to these data in the instant case, but I've fiddled these before and I think it is doable. Results in JOSM (after many seconds of load time) -- and JOSM MUST have the Shapefile plug-in -- do indeed display a nationwide network of rail lines. As a sample I chose (UP's Coast line in California, which I believe I have gotten mostly correct in OSM recently) has 30 rather cryptic (at first blush) tags, but these indeed look to be usable data. Geographically, yes, the rail line looks about correct though the tag structure seriously will have to be harmonized to become something to import into OSM. This starts to move (quickly) into the direction of a major import (and all its required vetting, etc.) into OSM. I ask others to help me determine the suitability of whether we might want to use these data. I imagine a fair bit of work would be required to harmonize the 30 tags into those we might deem appropriate for USA rail in OSM, as well as strategies for conflating them with existing TIGER rail data. It's a big, big, BIG job. On the other hand, I could see small segments in these data that interest local mappers being used to confirm names or actual track locations for existing data on a line-by-line basis, too. Thanks for really good discussion about this, Charlotte stepping up to make a wiki page, Michael's reference to these data and the great volunteer, cooperative and collaborative spirits we find in OSM here in the USA. SteveA California ___ Talk-us mailing list mailto:Talk-us@openstreetmap.orgTalk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us Charlotte Wolter 927 18th Street Suite A Santa Monica, California 90403 +1-310-597-4040 techl...@techlady.com Skype: thetechlady ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] [Imports-us] Rail westerly
On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 11:24 AM, stevea stevea...@softworkers.com wrote: I examine these in JOSM right now. First they need to be unzipped, and it looks like the (provided on that web page) PRJ file to change from WGS 84 (default) to either NAD 27 or 83 projection is required. I haven't done that to these data in the instant case, but I've fiddled these before and I think it is doable. Michael, Thanks for the info! You always can be counted on to find data, even if it is obscure. SteveA, I'd be happy to convert the shapefile to an .osm file for importing. It could be broken into smaller chunks to use the tasking manager. Maybe by county. Someone needs to create a import page on the wiki and announce it on the import mailing list. Let me know what you think. Clifford -- @osm_seattle osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] [Imports-us] Rail westerly
Also good data can be retrieved from time tables, division maps, and track diagrams. Nathan Proudfoot Tel: (425) 835-3638 email: n.pf...@gmail.com On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 12:36 PM, Clifford Snow cliff...@snowandsnow.us wrote: On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 11:24 AM, stevea stevea...@softworkers.com wrote: I examine these in JOSM right now. First they need to be unzipped, and it looks like the (provided on that web page) PRJ file to change from WGS 84 (default) to either NAD 27 or 83 projection is required. I haven't done that to these data in the instant case, but I've fiddled these before and I think it is doable. Michael, Thanks for the info! You always can be counted on to find data, even if it is obscure. SteveA, I'd be happy to convert the shapefile to an .osm file for importing. It could be broken into smaller chunks to use the tasking manager. Maybe by county. Someone needs to create a import page on the wiki and announce it on the import mailing list. Let me know what you think. Clifford -- @osm_seattle osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
[Talk-us] Rail USA
Also good data can be retrieved from time tables, division maps, and track diagrams. That is true, thank you Nathan Proudfoot. For the Union Pacific, I was disappointed that their web site requires a (UP employee?) login and password to gain access to their geographic rail data. BNSF seems a bit better (providing high level rail maps at a nationwide glance), and other railroads are probably somewhere around you get what you get, but please do take Nathan's good advice and seek data directly from a rail entity as a good first strategy for obtaining track/lead/line/subdivision names, for example. I'd be happy to convert the shapefile to an .osm file for importing. It could be broken into smaller chunks to use the tasking manager. Maybe by county. Someone needs to create a import page on the wiki and announce it on the import mailing list. Thanks, Clifford. I want to make it clear that it is very early first blush that we (OSM) examine these Oak Ridge rail data as a POTENTIAL import into OSM. We are still in the beginning evaluation phase of examining the data, and no decision has been reached as to whether we will or will not formally import them. I do cross-post to the import-us list as a preliminary heads-up that at least some folks in OSM are considering this. But we are a ways away from beginning a formal import process until we (I, others, please share your feedback) examine the suitability of these data and begin to formulate strategies about how they may best be used/imported. Or if indeed they or a subset of them DO get imported. Conversion from zipped shapefile to .osm is fairly straightforward: simply unzip, fiddle the geospatial coordinate system to be proper (I'm still working on this), open in JOSM with the Shapefile plug-in enabled, and there you go. Saving to .osm is straightforward after that, but right about here in the workflow is where it might make sense to break up data (say, state-by-state). As for a tasking manager breaking up the data, yes, perhaps a state-by-state approach is a good first whack at this. 49 (Alaska data are included, Hawaii, no) is a manageable number of sub-projects but around 3000 at a county level, whew, not so helpful. But before we do that, I think I'd like (us, me, others...) to take a look at those 30 or so tags on each line and see if we can begin to make sense of them and how they might turn into useful OSM data. I believe that's an important sub-task to start to do first. Some sort of a table lookup from the abbreviations used in those tags to something that is more human-readable is going to be required, I can determine that already. BTW, the actual track data might actually be better expressed by OSM's existing TIGER import of rail data. (And I think that is a GOOD thing, as would remove the requirement for conflation of the two). The Oak Ridge track data, while there seem a bit sketchy in comparison to OSM's TIGER rail. Jury still out, evaluation of Oak Ridge data continues. We could use that wiki to have these conversations, but Charlotte (while she did volunteer to begin it) has a full plate now. Perhaps someone else could plant the initial seed for a USA Rail WikiProject? If you wish to do so, contact me or Charlotte for a Draft 3 that Charlotte, Alexander and I evolved in the last few days. SteveA California___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Rail westerly
Yes, WGS84 because that’s what’s used by GPS (which was, after all, the original data source for OSM). Of course, then there’s the question of *which* WGS84 definition we’re talking about. You actually can’t assumed that current definitions of WGS84 and NAD83 are 1m difference. You can dip your toe into the complexity here: http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/CORS/Articles/WGS84NAD83.pdf Also note, that the satellite photography used for a great deal of OSM mapping has much less than 1m accuracy, and as you note, unless you’re using expensive GPS, you’re not likely to get 1m accuracy anyway. Relatedly, I’m curious if anyone has used one of these guys: http://gps.dualav.com/explore-by-lifestyle/outdoors/ d. On Dec 31, 2014, at 13:56, Dave Mansfield mansfie...@chartermi.net wrote: That brings up a good question. What datum is used by OSM? I would assume it's WGS 84. NAD 83 is within about a meter of WGS 84. That’s closer than the GPS units most of us have so would not cause much of an error if any. NAD 27 on the other hand could be off by as much as 180 meters. Dave -Original Message- From: stevea [mailto:stevea...@softworkers.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2014 2:24 PM To: talk-us@openstreetmap.org Cc: imports...@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Rail westerly I examine these in JOSM right now. First they need to be unzipped, and it looks like the (provided on that web page) PRJ file to change from WGS 84 (default) to either NAD 27 or 83 projection is required. I haven't done that to these data in the instant case, but I've fiddled these before and I think it is doable. SteveA California ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
[Talk-us] NAD 27 data to OSM's native WGS 84 data
I wrote: I examine these in JOSM right now. First they need to be unzipped, and it looks like the (provided on that web page) PRJ file to change from WGS 84 (default) to either NAD 27 or 83 projection is required. I haven't done that to these data in the instant case, but I've fiddled these before and I think it is doable. OSM uses WGS-84 as its default, and I erred in not realizing these data are in NAD 27, so a conversion does seem to be necessary. When you open them as-is with JOSM (+ Shapefile plug-in), you get an alert: Unable to detect Coordinate Reference System. Would you like to fallback to ESPG:4326 (WGS 84)? This implies that a fix string (perhaps via a .prj file, see below) is required to get JOSM to convert (or re-project) from the native NAD 27 to WGS 84. This is truly required, I believe. Dave Mansfield writes: That brings up a good question. What datum is used by OSM? I would assume it's WGS 84. NAD 83 is within about a meter of WGS 84. That's closer than the GPS units most of us have so would not cause much of an error if any. NAD 27 on the other hand could be off by as much as 180 meters. The Oak Ridge Page http://www-cta.ornl.gov/transnet/RailRoads.html does say this: Geographic accuracy is roughly equivalent to a scale of 1:100,000, but is object-specific (see documentation). Comparison to a set of 70,000 FRA inspection car GPS locations showed a lateral offset of 20 m root mean square, so a reasonable estimate of the geographic accuracy of active lines in CONUS would be 25 m RMS. The geographic coordinate system is decimal degrees, datum NAD27. No ESRI PRJ file is included with the shapefiles, but if there were, it would look like this (cut and paste if needed): GEOGCS[GCS_North_American_1927,DATUM[D_North_American_1927,SPHEROID[Clarke_1866,6378206.4,294.9786982]],PRIMEM[Greenwich,0],UNIT[Degree,0.017453292519943295]] Any magic incantation that will just do this (for shapefile data) is appreciated. I don't know if copy-pasting the above string into a .prj in the shapefile folder will direct JOSM (via Shapefile plug-in) to adjust the data to WGS 84, or if something different is required. It is even possible that clicking on JOSM's alert button of Yes is all that is required, but I'm not sure. Thank you in advance. SteveA California ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] NAD 27 data to OSM's native WGS 84 data
Any magic incantation that will just do this (for shapefile data) is appreciated. I don't know if copy-pasting the above string into a .prj in the shapefile folder will direct JOSM (via Shapefile plug-in) to adjust the data to WGS 84, or if something different is required. It is even possible that clicking on JOSM's alert button of Yes is all that is required, but I'm not sure. Thank you in advance. Well, just clicking “Yes” will definitely not work, since JOSM won’t know what to convert from. I don’t know if JOSM doesn’t reprojection. But if you want to just do it before loading the data into JOSM and you have OGR/GDAL installed: ogr2ogr -s_srs EPSG:4267 -t_srs EPSG:4326 output.shp input.shp d. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] NAD 27 data to OSM's native WGS 84 data
Any magic incantation that will just do this (for shapefile data) is appreciated. I don't know if copy-pasting the above string into a .prj in the shapefile folder will direct JOSM (via Shapefile plug-in) to adjust the data to WGS 84, or if something different is required. It is even possible that clicking on JOSM's alert button of Yes is all that is required, but I'm not sure. Thank you in advance. Well, just clicking Yes will definitely not work, since JOSM won't know what to convert from. I don't know if JOSM doesn't reprojection. But if you want to just do it before loading the data into JOSM and you have OGR/GDAL installed: ogr2ogr -s_srs EPSG:4267 -t_srs EPSG:4326 output.shp input.shp I do have OGR/GDAL installed (for this and other reasons!) and have done exactly this before (for example, during my US Forest Service data harmonization in Region 5/California a couple years ago). Thank you, Darrell, for confirming this. To be clear to anybody else who wishes to use the Oak Ridge Rail data, a re-projection from NAD 27to WGS 84 absolutely IS required, and one way to do that is to use the ogr2ogr command above. For those new to this, the quickest way is to install GDAL appropriate to your operating system. Thanks for the quick response! SteveA California___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] NAD 27 data to OSM's native WGS 84 data
On 12/31/2014 2:14 PM, stevea wrote: OSM uses WGS-84 as its default, and I erred in not realizing these data are in NAD 27, so a conversion does seem to be necessary. Not just by default - OSM is defined as only being in WGS84. When you open them as-is with JOSM (+ Shapefile plug-in), you get an alert: Unable to detect Coordinate Reference System. Would you like to fallback to ESPG:4326 (WGS 84)? This implies that a fix string (perhaps via a .prj file, see below) is required to get JOSM to convert (or re-project) from the native NAD 27 to WGS 84. This is truly required, I believe. To properly convert from NAD27 to WGS84 a grid shift file is required, but as you point out reasonable estimate of the geographic accuracy of active lines in CONUS would be 25 m RMS any differences from a crude conversion and a proper one are going to be swamped by the RMS error. This also means that the differences between NAD83 and WGS84 are immaterial within the CONUS for this dataset, and that decently rectified imagery is much more accurate than it. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
[Talk-us] Routing on Ferries
A Scout note, http://www.openstreetmap.org/note/294192 complains of routing problems when a ferry is required. A user of the OSM-based Scout app reported the following possible map error: will not use ferry route. avoid ferry not checked. Is that a problem limited to Scout, or is there something we should be checking for? BTW - I've taken this ferry from Edmonds to Kingston, WA a number of times. It is a great trip during nice weather. Clifford -- @osm_seattle osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Imports-us Digest, Vol 24, Issue 1
(cross-posting from imports-us to talk-us) On 12/31/2014 1:48 PM, stevea wrote: That is true, thank you Nathan Proudfoot. For the Union Pacific, I was disappointed that their web site requires a (UP employee?) login and password to gain access to their geographic rail data. BNSF seems a bit better (providing high level rail maps at a nationwide glance), and other railroads are probably somewhere around you get what you get, but please do take Nathan's good advice and seek data directly from a rail entity as a good first strategy for obtaining track/lead/line/subdivision names, for example. Paul Norman writes: In my experience these types of companies seldom provide anything under a usable license - is this different for US-based rail company databases? This is a very important consideration; all data entered into OSM (from such sources) must be ODBL compatible. As I look at, for example, the BNSF (carload_map.pdf) file that Nathan Proudfoot pointed to, it definitely says © 2011 BNSF Railway so this is the sort of source OSM cannot use to originate data. However, federal data or data from states where there are liberal public records law (for example, the California Public Utilities Commission Rail Crossing List listing Primary Rail Organization as top-level entities and the names of their subdivision), I believe these public sourced data origins are perfectly OK as they originate as public data at the nexus of a Citizen of that state placing the data into OSM as a volunteer who has agreed to the Contributor Terms. Be careful, everybody. Public data in a public record data friendly state? OK. Copyrighted data directly from (say) the website of a rail company? Not OK. What I'm not quite sure about are federal records such as FRA records (as I believe Oak Ridge data are). These would be covered under, say, a FOIA request, and so are quite similar to the same nexus argument as state records, only under federal law, not state law. Happy New Year, SteveA California ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Routing on Ferries
On 1/1/15 1:39 AM, Clifford Snow wrote: A Scout note, http://www.openstreetmap.org/note/294192 complains of routing problems when a ferry is required. A user of the OSM-based Scout app reported the following possible map error: will not use ferry route. avoid ferry not checked. Is that a problem limited to Scout, or is there something we should be checking for? BTW - I've taken this ferry from Edmonds to Kingston, WA a number of times. It is a great trip during nice weather. the one routing issue i'm familiar with is that frequently ferry access uses highway=service, and some routing applications try to avoid service roads as much as possible. richard -- rwe...@averillpark.net Averill Park Networking - GIS IT Consulting OpenStreetMap - PostgreSQL - Linux Java - Web Applications - Search ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Routing on Ferries
Clifford, When talking to the Scout team this summer it was mentioned as an issue. Also Scout wont route across access roads and if there is an access road leading up to the dock/portal then no route. you will notice that it is listed as primary road in Edmonds and Kingston. Nathan P On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 10:39 PM, Clifford Snow cliff...@snowandsnow.us wrote: A Scout note, http://www.openstreetmap.org/note/294192 complains of routing problems when a ferry is required. A user of the OSM-based Scout app reported the following possible map error: will not use ferry route. avoid ferry not checked. Is that a problem limited to Scout, or is there something we should be checking for? BTW - I've taken this ferry from Edmonds to Kingston, WA a number of times. It is a great trip during nice weather. Clifford -- @osm_seattle osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
