Re: Times ARE changing

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

When a tiny boy near the middle of a previous century I secretly hid with a 
book with words in it. I was not able to puzzle the words, but I could look at 
the pictures. Believing it to be a fun tale mothers told children in a far off 
land, I studied the pictures to learn a lesson such mothers might have for 
their children. (I was not allowed to look at books with pictures or magazines 
or newspapers until I was in 1st grade, though I could look at pictures cut 
from them, a cold-war thing.)

Dar Scott


My forthcoming work in five volumes, `The Neglect of Cheese in European 
Literature,' is a work of such unprecedented and laborious detail that it is 
doubtful whether I shall live to finish it. -- G. K. Chesterton

> On Jun 7, 2020, at 5:24 AM, Richmond via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Well put, good point.
> 
> On 7.06.20 11:06, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
>> Richmond wrote:
>> > If some of these types who go on endlessly about anything that might
>> > be vaguely construed as 'racist' were capable of slightly more subtle
>> > thought they might examine intentions: after all if we all judged
>> > people on what they looked like most of us would be out of a job and
>> > starving.
>> 
>> There is also the problem of linguistic false cognates. Similar words from 
>> different regions often have very different etymologies.
>> 
>> While the stories of the old British Empire can be charming (I love the two 
>> hard-bound volumes of Kipling my father gave me), the Indian tale is 
>> unrelated to both the origins of the American word "sambo" and its 
>> colloquial use.
>> 
>> On this continent, much of our language is influenced by the Spanish who 
>> were among the first Europeans to explore and settle most the Americas.
>> 
>> From Wikipedia:
>> 
>>The word "sambo" came into the English language from the Latin
>>American Spanish word zambo, the Spanish word in Latin America
>>for a person of mixed African and Native American descent.[3]
>>This in turn may have come from one of three African language
>>sources. Webster's Third International Dictionary holds that
>>it may have come from the Kongo word nzambu ("monkey") — the
>>z of (Latin American) Spanish being pronounced here like the
>>English s.
>> 
>> Complicating matters further is the difference between etymology and popular 
>> usage, as Ms Gay has reminded us with good humor over the years. :)
>> 
>> English-speaking people in the US didn't use the word until after the 
>> American Civil War, popularized mostly by the losing side of that conflict 
>> as a derogatory term.
>> 
>> Though the war was long ago, the legacy is evident. We needn't go any 
>> further on that here in this programmer's list.
>> 
>> It is indeed unfortunate that those who used the word most commonly in the 
>> States have cast an unfortunate pallor on a tale from the other side of the 
>> world, and that Samuel Battistone and Newell Bohnett found themselves in an 
>> awkward spot with their restaurants well known for excellent pancake 
>> breakfasts.
>> 
>> Indeed, the Santa Barbara restaurant is still family-owned, and the current 
>> manager Chad Stevens has expressed a hopeful note about the name change that 
>> goes into effect this Friday:
>> 
>> "With the changing world and circumstances, the name isn’t just about what 
>> it means to us, but the meaning it holds for others. At this point, our 
>> family has looked into our hearts and realize that we must be sensitive when 
>> others whom we respect make a strong appeal. So today we stand in solidarity 
>> with those seeking change and doing our part."
>> 
>> Maybe best of all, the new temporary name they'll be using while the family 
>> decides on a permanent one is: "☮"
>> 
>> https://www.noozhawk.com/article/bizhawk_sambos_santa_barbara_to_change_name_20200604
>>  
>> 
>> By any name, the restaurant at 216 W. Cabrillo Blvd in Santa Barbara is well 
>> worth making a point of visiting whenever you're passing through that part 
>> of California's coast.  The pancakes are truly awesome.
>> 
>> 
>> This is quite off-topic, and I hope this momentary indulgence in etymology 
>> and pancakes doesn't stray too close to cheese.
>> 
>> Back to our regularly-scheduled LiveCode discussion, where I'll post a 
>> question about the Browser widget next...
>> 
> 
> 
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Re: Apps to fight COVID-19

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

Covid Watch (where I'm working) is decentralized. (of course) 

> On May 14, 2020, at 10:35 AM, Mark Wieder via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Updated news: Germany steps up to the plate
> 
> https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-52650576
> https://github.com/corona-warn-app/cwa-documentation
> 
> -- 
> Mark Wieder
> ahsoftw...@gmail.com
> 
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Re: Apps to fight COVID-19

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

I don't think Coronika is made with LiveCode. However, it might be inspiring. 
For some reason downloading never completes on my old Android phone.

> On Apr 18, 2020, at 11:56 AM, JeeJeeStudio via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> That's not made with livecode right?
> 
> Op 18-4-2020 om 15:45 schreef David Bovill via use-livecode:
>> The app looks a good start, but basic. I took a closer look at the cartoon 
>> images, they are quite specific, but a good base for a discussion about 
>> privacy issues. Not so good for an app.
>> 
>> My suggestion regarding taking this forwards is that we have a creative 
>> workshop on Earth Day this coming Weds, as part of an in-line in conference 
>> that we are organising with a few folk. There will be plenty of other thing 
>> to drop into. I’ll send some info to this list on Sunday.
>> 
>> It’s pretty informal, so we can organise our own breakout open space meeting 
>> when we like - so it should be no issue organising a Livecode workshop on 
>> making a CORVID-19 app.
>> 
>> My focus is on doing an interactive sound piece and helping convene some if 
>> the breakout discussions, but doing a workshop on Livecode would be a fun 
>> part of that.
>> 
>> I could do with some help though :)
>> On 17 Apr 2020, 17:09 +0100, dsc--- via use-livecode 
>> , wrote:
>>> Here is a cool app from Kreativzirkel Design Studio. It is a contact diary 
>>> as mentioned here.
>>> 
>>> https://www.coronika.app/en <https://www.coronika.app/en>
>>> 
>>> I say "cool", but I haven't tried it. it looks good. Should it be done 
>>> better?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Apr 15, 2020, at 4:57 PM, dsc--- via use-livecode 
>>>>  wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Meanwhile at Covid Watch there is talk of moving the provider-facing at to 
>>>> a web app of some sort.
>>>> 
>>>>> On Apr 14, 2020, at 1:37 PM, dsc--- via use-livecode 
>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Jonathan Rothberg is looking for brilliant people who can code whatever 
>>>>> your domain.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Apr 13, 2020, at 6:52 PM, Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode 
>>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Thanks!
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Apr 13, 2020, at 11:42 AM, Mark Wieder via use-livecode 
>>>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On 4/13/20 10:14 AM, dsc--- via use-livecode wrote:
>>>>>>>> 1. Covid Watch needs expertise in making HIPAA compliant apps. (We 
>>>>>>>> have changed COVID Watch to Covid Watch.)
>>>>>>> This any help?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> https://www.healthcareblocks.com/hipaa/developer_guidelines
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Mark Wieder
>>>>>>> ahsoftw...@gmail.com
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> ___
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Re: Apps to fight COVID-19

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

Thanks!


> On Apr 13, 2020, at 11:42 AM, Mark Wieder via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> On 4/13/20 10:14 AM, dsc--- via use-livecode wrote:
>> 1. Covid Watch needs expertise in making HIPAA compliant apps. (We have 
>> changed COVID Watch to Covid Watch.)
> 
> This any help?
> 
> https://www.healthcareblocks.com/hipaa/developer_guidelines
> 
> -- 
> Mark Wieder
> ahsoftw...@gmail.com
> 
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Re: Apps to fight COVID-19

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

Is this normal?

Guideline 5.1.1 - Legal - Privacy - Data Collection and Storage
We found in our review that your app provides services or requires sensitive 
user information related to the COVID-19 pandemic. Since the COVID-19 pandemic 
is a public health crisis, services and information related to it are 
considered to be part of the healthcare industry. In addition, the seller and 
company names associated with your app are not from a recognized institution, 
such as a governmental entity, hospital, insurance company, non-governmental 
organization, or university. 
Per section 5.1.1 (ix) of the App Store Review Guidelines, apps that provide 
services or collect sensitive user information in highly-regulated fields, such 
as healthcare, should be submitted by a legal entity that provides these 
services, and not by an individual developer. 

Next Steps 
To resolve this issue, your app must be published under a seller and company 
name of a recognized institution. If you have developed this app on behalf of 
such an institution, please advise your client to add you to the development 
team of their Apple Developer account. If your client does not yet have an 
Apple Developer account, they can enroll for one as an organization through the 
Apple Developer website.

Resources
For additional details, please refer to the update on the Apple Developer 
website about Ensuring the Credibility of Health & Safety Information.

> On Apr 11, 2020, at 3:37 PM, JeeJeeStudio via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Next to the Dutch sites, you can also write your Tender(Idea) to 
> covid19-...@minvws.nl
>> 
>>> On Apr 11, 2020, at 1:35 PM, JeeJeeStudio via use-livecode 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Don't know if it was said already...
>>> 
>>> The Dutch government is asking for app ideas for this Covid virus, so 
>>> people are alerted if they are to close to another, that's one thing.
>>> 
>>> Any other ideas are welcome.
>>> 
>>> Further, it has to be absolutely privacy safe for civliians.
>>> 
>>> Any idea can be dropped within the next 2 weeks and then they will decide 
>>> where they go for, or who can build it.
>>> 
>>> As Livecode is rapid development, you could win with time. Don't know how 
>>> Bluetooth is supported in LC, but probably it will be one of te major 
>>> things.
>>> 
>>> It does not has to connect, you can (if i'm total correct) see who is 
>>> nearby and even read the address of the other bluetooth. So maybe there is 
>>> some kind of tracking, albeit privacy safe.
>>> 
>>> You have to Google where you can register yourself, cause i don't know.
>>> 
>>> note that Google and Apple are already putting heads together to create an 
>>> app for both platforms.
>>> 
>>> Ciao!
>>> 
>>> Jerry
>>> 
>>> Op 11-4-2020 om 20:34 schreef Dev via use-livecode:
 Countdown of the hours left in purgatory?
 
> On Apr 11, 2020, at 12:32 PM, Mark Smith via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> What would it be designed to help you with?
> 
>> On Apr 11, 2020, at 4:51 PM, dsc--- via use-livecode 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> App idea: 14 days of self-quarantine
>> 
>> 
 On Apr 11, 2020, at 8:35 AM, dsc--- via use-livecode 
  wrote:
>>> Maybe a diary app can be enhanced to include "Talked with this person 
>>> in person for a few minutes" and "Lingered at this location for a few 
>>> minutes" checkboxes that might be an aid when interviewed in 
>>> traditional contact tracing. Those might be used for filtering.
>>> 
>>> This does not add to anything lost when Big Brother steals your phone; 
>>> it only helps you or daughter-spouse-caregiver to answer contact 
>>> tracing questions.
>>> 
>>> 
 On Apr 11, 2020, at 7:34 AM, dsc--- via use-livecode 
  wrote:
 
 I like it. And it can give kids a chance to show grandma how to 
 download apps.
 
 And this can be added to the COVID-19 button of current apps, too.
 
 
> On Apr 11, 2020, at 1:03 AM, David Bovill via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Personally - especially after reading the links below on Apple + 
> Googles initiative - I’d go for story telling based around the comic 
> in an app that we could add contact tracing functionality too. I 
> think emphasising in the story telling privacy issues would be 
> something that would be an important aspect and a strong point with 
> regard to adding to the mix - rather than duplicating efforts by 
> other groups?
> On 10 Apr 2020, 18:05 +0100, dsc--- via use-livecode 
> , wrote:
>> And it doesn't have to be just contact tracing related.
>> 
>> Jonathan Rothberg's team is working on a simple test at home that 
>> needs an app.
>> co...@4catalyzer.com 
>> 
>> Anybody want to talk about a containment game? Or 

Re: Apps to fight COVID-19

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

Maybe it can also be something like Facetime and give you a "gregarious-ity" 
score.

Maybe it can even work based on Bluetooth classic inquiry. If this works, this 
would work even with older Androids, but I'm not sure about iOS.

1/128th baked: Audio and audio control protocols...


Are there Bluetooth libraries for LC mobile? I expect that serial might be 
there but that might not be very privacy preserving. 


Oh, Google and Apple are not putting together an app (yet), they are making an 
engine so we can make cars. Well, I don't know that they are. I have trouble 
keeping up. The API that they are describing is very much like what folks at 
Covid watch, Eastcoast PACT and DP-3T have been describing. Two of those have 
libraries available right now. 

Build a car!




> On Apr 11, 2020, at 1:35 PM, JeeJeeStudio via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Don't know if it was said already...
> 
> The Dutch government is asking for app ideas for this Covid virus, so people 
> are alerted if they are to close to another, that's one thing.
> 
> Any other ideas are welcome.
> 
> Further, it has to be absolutely privacy safe for civliians.
> 
> Any idea can be dropped within the next 2 weeks and then they will decide 
> where they go for, or who can build it.
> 
> As Livecode is rapid development, you could win with time. Don't know how 
> Bluetooth is supported in LC, but probably it will be one of te major things.
> 
> It does not has to connect, you can (if i'm total correct) see who is nearby 
> and even read the address of the other bluetooth. So maybe there is some kind 
> of tracking, albeit privacy safe.
> 
> You have to Google where you can register yourself, cause i don't know.
> 
> note that Google and Apple are already putting heads together to create an 
> app for both platforms.
> 
> Ciao!
> 
> Jerry
> 
> Op 11-4-2020 om 20:34 schreef Dev via use-livecode:
>> Countdown of the hours left in purgatory?
>> 
>>> On Apr 11, 2020, at 12:32 PM, Mark Smith via use-livecode 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> What would it be designed to help you with?
>>> 
 On Apr 11, 2020, at 4:51 PM, dsc--- via use-livecode 
  wrote:
 
 App idea: 14 days of self-quarantine
 
 
>> On Apr 11, 2020, at 8:35 AM, dsc--- via use-livecode 
>>  wrote:
> Maybe a diary app can be enhanced to include "Talked with this person in 
> person for a few minutes" and "Lingered at this location for a few 
> minutes" checkboxes that might be an aid when interviewed in traditional 
> contact tracing. Those might be used for filtering.
> 
> This does not add to anything lost when Big Brother steals your phone; it 
> only helps you or daughter-spouse-caregiver to answer contact tracing 
> questions.
> 
> 
>> On Apr 11, 2020, at 7:34 AM, dsc--- via use-livecode 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> I like it. And it can give kids a chance to show grandma how to download 
>> apps.
>> 
>> And this can be added to the COVID-19 button of current apps, too.
>> 
>> 
>>> On Apr 11, 2020, at 1:03 AM, David Bovill via use-livecode 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Personally - especially after reading the links below on Apple + 
>>> Googles initiative - I’d go for story telling based around the comic in 
>>> an app that we could add contact tracing functionality too. I think 
>>> emphasising in the story telling privacy issues would be something that 
>>> would be an important aspect and a strong point with regard to adding 
>>> to the mix - rather than duplicating efforts by other groups?
>>> On 10 Apr 2020, 18:05 +0100, dsc--- via use-livecode 
>>> , wrote:
 And it doesn't have to be just contact tracing related.
 
 Jonathan Rothberg's team is working on a simple test at home that 
 needs an app.
 co...@4catalyzer.com 
 
 Anybody want to talk about a containment game? Or take the concept and 
 go in one's own direction?
 
 Nicky Case's phone size comic is now available in several languages, 
 so if you include that in _anything_ you do, can localize a little.
 
 Dar
 team COVID Watch
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Re: Apps to fight COVID-19

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

14 day devotional? Daily quarantine tips? Daily jokes? ...


> On Apr 11, 2020, at 12:34 PM, Dev via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Countdown of the hours left in purgatory?
> 
>> On Apr 11, 2020, at 12:32 PM, Mark Smith via use-livecode 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> What would it be designed to help you with?
>> 
>>> On Apr 11, 2020, at 4:51 PM, dsc--- via use-livecode 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> App idea: 14 days of self-quarantine
>>> 
>>> 
> On Apr 11, 2020, at 8:35 AM, dsc--- via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
 
 Maybe a diary app can be enhanced to include "Talked with this person in 
 person for a few minutes" and "Lingered at this location for a few 
 minutes" checkboxes that might be an aid when interviewed in traditional 
 contact tracing. Those might be used for filtering.
 
 This does not add to anything lost when Big Brother steals your phone; it 
 only helps you or daughter-spouse-caregiver to answer contact tracing 
 questions. 
 
 
> On Apr 11, 2020, at 7:34 AM, dsc--- via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> I like it. And it can give kids a chance to show grandma how to download 
> apps.
> 
> And this can be added to the COVID-19 button of current apps, too.
> 
> 
>> On Apr 11, 2020, at 1:03 AM, David Bovill via use-livecode 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Personally - especially after reading the links below on Apple + Googles 
>> initiative - I’d go for story telling based around the comic in an app 
>> that we could add contact tracing functionality too. I think emphasising 
>> in the story telling privacy issues would be something that would be an 
>> important aspect and a strong point with regard to adding to the mix - 
>> rather than duplicating efforts by other groups?
>> On 10 Apr 2020, 18:05 +0100, dsc--- via use-livecode 
>> , wrote:
>>> And it doesn't have to be just contact tracing related.
>>> 
>>> Jonathan Rothberg's team is working on a simple test at home that needs 
>>> an app.
>>> co...@4catalyzer.com 
>>> 
>>> Anybody want to talk about a containment game? Or take the concept and 
>>> go in one's own direction?
>>> 
>>> Nicky Case's phone size comic is now available in several languages, so 
>>> if you include that in _anything_ you do, can localize a little.
>>> 
>>> Dar
>>> team COVID Watch
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Re: Apps to fight COVID-19

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

You are right. We must remain diligent. 

> On Apr 10, 2020, at 7:16 PM, Mark Wieder via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> On 4/10/20 3:58 PM, Trevor DeVore via use-livecode wrote:
> 
>> Here are some additional details. Seems like a good thing they are doing.
> 
> It *is* a good thing, no doubt about it.
> But the opportunities for misuse are rife.
> TSA: "You can't fly unless you have a RealID and a green indicator on the 
> official Covid19 app."
> 
> -- 
> Mark Wieder
> ahsoftw...@gmail.com
> 
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Re: Apps to fight COVID-19

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

Alright, Richard!

But, uh, before you hit the streets, put on your mask and download a contact 
tracing app from a competent freedom-loving source.


> On Apr 10, 2020, at 4:58 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Mark Wieder wrote:
> > Of course, a "standard" app will soon become compulsory for tracking
> > and permission to be out on the street, as it did in China.
> >
> > https://twitter.com/ashk4n?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1248659874679902210
> 
> If compulsory, the first thing I'll do is throw my phone away.  The second 
> thing I'll do is join the millions in the streets reminder our leadership 
> that we don't do things here like they're done in China.
> #BillOfRights
> 
> -- 
> Richard Gaskin
> Fourth World Systems
> Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
> 
> ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com
> 
> 
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Re: Apps to fight COVID-19

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

The illustrations from Google in that article are goofed up. I don't know 
whether Google did it or TechCrunch.

The gray background confuses things. The "few days later" goes left to right 
not top to bottom.

The order should be...

Alice and Bob meet...
Their phones exchange...
A few days later...
Bob is positively...
With Bob's consent...
Alice continues...
Alice's phone...
Sometime later...
Alice sees a notification...
Alice's phone...

I'm not saying that is the best way, only that the description of the procedure 
outlined by Google is confusing.




> On Apr 10, 2020, at 4:58 PM, Trevor DeVore via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> On Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 5:07 PM Mark Wieder via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
>> On 4/10/20 11:56 AM, Mike Doub via use-livecode wrote:
>>> Apple and Google adding contact tracking to their OSs
>>> 
>>> 
>> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/10/business/stock-market-today-coronavirus.html#link-418ae121
>> 
>> From my limited understanding of this, Apple and Google are creating an
>> API which will be part of the OS. And then it's up to developers to
>> create apps and convince users to download them (Apple gets their 30%
>> off the top, no?). So at best we have reporting from the set of users
>> who have decided to opt in, download an app, and accept the app's
>> permissions.
> 
> 
> Here are some additional details. Seems like a good thing they are doing.
> 
> https://techcrunch.com/2020/04/10/apple-and-google-are-launching-a-joint-covid-19-tracing-tool/
> 
> -- 
> Trevor DeVore
> ScreenSteps
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Re: Apps to fight COVID-19

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

Don't know what "list like that" you are referring to. Currently, Android (and 
maybe iOS, too, I don't know) requires Location as a prerequisite to using 
Bluetooth. My impression is that with the new API, this is not required. So, 
the list for any app is smaller.

I believe currently COVID watch only needs Bluetooth, Location (because of 
Bluetooth), notifications (but I'm hoping that can be made optional) and 
Internet. I haven't looked at the akp, uh, apk uh, whatever it is. 

A concern that I have is that what was open source and peer reviewed is now 
pushed down into the API. And will that API be available on all Android 5.0 up? 
iOS 11 up?

COVID Watch is not stopping to see how this plays out. The team is testing this 
weekend. The same with DP3T. So, maybe we don't need no API improvements. Maybe.

I hope an app by one of the teams concerned about privacy will beat "to market" 
any government app. I would be very upset of Big Brother mandated the use of 
COVID Watch. I knew a fellow who worked hard for liberty in Cuba only to have 
the work stolen by Castro in a power grab. 

Maybe this is where you can contribute, Mark. You can help protect us.

Maybe you can come up with some ways to test apps and APIs.
Maybe you can come up with methods to help with contact tracing that don't rely 
on a long list of permissions.

Of course, the 4Catalyst project is pretty cool, too.

> On Apr 10, 2020, at 4:06 PM, Mark Wieder via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> On 4/10/20 11:56 AM, Mike Doub via use-livecode wrote:
>> Apple and Google adding contact tracking to their OSs
>> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/10/business/stock-market-today-coronavirus.html#link-418ae121
> 
> From my limited understanding of this, Apple and Google are creating an API 
> which will be part of the OS. And then it's up to developers to create apps 
> and convince users to download them (Apple gets their 30% off the top, no?). 
> So at best we have reporting from the set of users who have decided to opt 
> in, download an app, and accept the app's permissions.
> 
> I can just imagine what that permissions list will look like. And if I ever 
> see a list like that on an app I'm about to install, it goes straight in the 
> trash. This sounds like a long shot.
> 
> Of course, a "standard" app will soon become compulsory for tracking and 
> permission to be out on the street, as it did in China.
> 
> https://twitter.com/ashk4n?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1248659874679902210
> 
> -- 
> Mark Wieder
> ahsoftw...@gmail.com
> 
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Re: Apps to fight COVID-19

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

Hi, David! Hi, Mark! Hi, Everybody!

There are several teams that need help in a variety of ways. 

Several teams are in the TCN Coalition <https://tcn-coalition.org/>. These 
teams respect privacy and use the TCN Protocol. COVID Watch is there with help 
from around the world, but with a USA focus. You can see a list with links on 
that very simple page. Volunteers might want to seek out those whose location, 
philosophy or neediness seem to be appealing.

Other organizations include Private Kit: Safe Paths (GPS) and "Eastcoast" PACT 
out of MIT.  You can probably find more. If you have a direction or need you 
want to focus on, I can try to help.

A group in Europe is forming around DT-3T, triggered by work by Carmela 
Troncoso of EPFL and folks at ETHZ. (Even though DT-3T is considered to be 
under the umbrella of PEPPPT, the later group includes teams whose methods that 
require trusted servers. DT-3T does not.) This project has some nice features. 
https://github.com/DP-3T <https://github.com/DP-3T>

Artist/explainer Nicky Case has created a comic in a phone format that explains 
contact tracing. The details look a little more like DT-3T than what COVID 
Watch is doing, but one tweaked for COVID Watch is in the works. You can 
incorporate this into your current apps or make a new education app. The 
education app might remind people how they downloaded that app and how to 
download the kind of app described in the comic. You can run with this on your 
own.
https://ncase.me/contact-tracing/ <https://ncase.me/contact-tracing/>

Everybody should look at that comic anyway. It explains a lot in just a few 
minutes.

There is a need for both phone and desktop apps used by healthcare providers to 
validate "I'm sick" reports. Many organizations need some means of making sure 
there are few false reports. Maybe some sort of cryptographic signature or 
something. While groups are focusing on the user app, the hospital apps are 
seeing less work. 

And then there are the servers. Maybe Firebase will work but I suspect that 
there might have to be more, depending on the team. Server? Look at the Nicky 
Case comic. 

I have some for a containment game that includes contact tracing. I can give it 
to somebody and even (in my copious spare time) provide some handwaving. 

One problem is that auntie does not know how to download apps. Encouraging 
friends showing friends how to download is a good thing. Rapid adoption will 
become important. And even education about contact tracing in general. 

You might be coming up with ideas I didn't even think about.

Contact me if you need any help.

Dar





> On Apr 9, 2020, at 4:46 AM, Mark Smith via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Happy to contribute as well. 
> 
>> On Apr 8, 2020, at 3:17 PM, David Bovill via use-livecode 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> I’d be interested in volunteering to make a Livecode app for this. Anyone 
>> else?
>> On 7 Apr 2020, 00:41 +0100, Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode 
>> , wrote:
>>> Hi, everybody!
>>> 
>>> I apologize for the drive-by email.
>>> 
>>> And I miss everybody on the list. Been busy all that.
>>> 
>>> I am a strong believer in contact tracing as an implortant part of COVID-19 
>>> containment.
>>> 
>>> There are several teams out there working on voluntary privacy-protecting 
>>> contact tracing apps to deploy before Big Brother mandates some central DB 
>>> app usage. Those include COVID Watch, CoEpi, Private Watch Safe Paths, and 
>>> others. Most have already started and are using swift and kotlin. Only Safe 
>>> Paths has something out. However, there might be some room in creating some 
>>> instant apps in LiveCode or in supporting in other ways. Also, some teams 
>>> are just getting started and need something fast. I think we need some 
>>> education apps done quickly.
>>> 
>>> Also, 4Catalyzer is making a home test and needs some app development.
>>> 
>>> For myself, I am on on the COVID Watch team.
>>> 
>>> If you want to do something, take a look around at privacy preserving 
>>> contact tracing projects. And also look specifically I the ones I mentioned.
>>> 
>>> I might be rehashing what has already been discussed. Sorry. Like I said, 
>>> "Drive by email".
>>> 
>>> And remember what the Beatles said, "You wanna wash your ha-a-ands!"
>>> 
>>> Dar Scott
>>> 
>>> I am using Private Watch: Safe Paths on my iPhone to fight COVID-19..
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
>>> Please visit this url to

Re: Apps to fight COVID-19

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

:)

> On Apr 8, 2020, at 8:17 AM, David Bovill via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> I’d be interested in volunteering to make a Livecode app for this. Anyone 
> else?
> On 7 Apr 2020, 00:41 +0100, Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode 
> , wrote:
>> Hi, everybody!
>> 
>> I apologize for the drive-by email.
>> 
>> And I miss everybody on the list. Been busy all that.
>> 
>> I am a strong believer in contact tracing as an implortant part of COVID-19 
>> containment.
>> 
>> There are several teams out there working on voluntary privacy-protecting 
>> contact tracing apps to deploy before Big Brother mandates some central DB 
>> app usage. Those include COVID Watch, CoEpi, Private Watch Safe Paths, and 
>> others. Most have already started and are using swift and kotlin. Only Safe 
>> Paths has something out. However, there might be some room in creating some 
>> instant apps in LiveCode or in supporting in other ways. Also, some teams 
>> are just getting started and need something fast. I think we need some 
>> education apps done quickly.
>> 
>> Also, 4Catalyzer is making a home test and needs some app development.
>> 
>> For myself, I am on on the COVID Watch team.
>> 
>> If you want to do something, take a look around at privacy preserving 
>> contact tracing projects. And also look specifically I the ones I mentioned.
>> 
>> I might be rehashing what has already been discussed. Sorry. Like I said, 
>> "Drive by email".
>> 
>> And remember what the Beatles said, "You wanna wash your ha-a-ands!"
>> 
>> Dar Scott
>> 
>> I am using Private Watch: Safe Paths on my iPhone to fight COVID-19..
>> 
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Apps to fight COVID-19

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

Hi, everybody!

I apologize for the drive-by email. 

And I miss everybody on the list. Been busy all that.

I am a strong believer in contact tracing as an implortant part of COVID-19 
containment.

There are several teams out there working on voluntary privacy-protecting 
contact tracing apps to deploy before Big Brother mandates some central DB app 
usage. Those include COVID Watch, CoEpi, Private Watch Safe Paths, and others. 
Most have already started and are using swift and kotlin. Only Safe Paths has 
something out. However, there might be some room in creating some instant apps 
in LiveCode or in supporting in other ways. Also, some teams are just getting 
started and need something fast. I think we need some education apps done 
quickly.

Also, 4Catalyzer is making a home test and needs some app development.

For myself, I am on on the COVID Watch team.

If you want to do something, take a look around at privacy preserving contact 
tracing projects. And also look specifically I the ones I mentioned. 

I might be rehashing what has already been discussed.  Sorry. Like I said, 
"Drive by email".

And remember what the Beatles said, "You wanna wash your ha-a-ands!"

Dar Scott

I am using Private Watch: Safe Paths on my iPhone to fight COVID-19..

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Re: Is there a command to display number of seconds as hrs:min:seconds?

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

I would +1 a deltaTime format, but we might not agree on hours over 24 and 
fractions of a second.

> On Oct 17, 2019, at 10:25 PM, Bill Vlahos via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> All great suggestions.
> 
> I mostly wanted to see if there already was such a function - which there 
> obviously isn’t.
> 
> But it is great to see several easy ways to built your own.
> 
> Thanks all.
> 
> Bill Vlahos
> 
> 
>> On Oct 17, 2019, at 8:51 AM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> The problem with one-liners is that the genius is implicit, not explicit. ;-)
>> 
>> Bob S
>> 
>> 
>>> On Oct 17, 2019, at 08:44 , J. Landman Gay via use-livecode 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Show-off. :-)
>>> --
>>> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
>> 
>> 
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Re: Is there a command to display number of seconds as hrs:min:seconds?

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

Perhaps the dateItems format would get you part of the way there. 

It seems like I have reinvented this in the past several times.

> On Oct 16, 2019, at 6:41 PM, Terry Judd via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Not built-in but...
> 
> function formatRemainingTime pTime
>   put trunc(pTime/3600) into tHours
>   put pTime mod 3600 into tTimeX
>   put trunc(tTimeX/60) into tMins
>   put tTimeX mod 60 into tSecs
>   if tHours < 10 then put "0" before tHours
>   if tMins < 10 then put "0" before tMins
>   if tSecs < 10 then put "0" before tSecs
>   return tHours&":"&":"
> end formatRemainingTime
> 
> On 17/10/19, 11:24 am, "use-livecode on behalf of Bill Vlahos via 
> use-livecode"  use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
>I’m writing a countdown timer application and want to display the 
> remaining time not as the number of seconds but in the format of HR:MIN:SEC 
> left.
> 
>For example 75 seconds would display as “0:1:15”.
>130 seconds would display as “0:2:10”.
> 
>I know how to do the math to figure it out but I’m wondering if there is a 
> built in function to do this.
> 
>Convert wants to deal with actual time so I would get something like 
> “0:1:15 PM”.
> 
>Thanks,
>Bill Vlahos
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Re: Catalina and stuff other than 32bit—USB broken

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

No, I haven't tried QUEMU.

However, I downloaded a new xCode and, when I ran it the first time, my little 
board started working and showed up as a virtual serial port and as a disk 
drive. 

The good news is that it works. Perhaps xCode swapped out something, maybe 
drivers.

The bad news is that I have no idea whether something that runs on my machine 
will run on another without xCode installed.

Dar
Mad Scientist
Sad Scientist


> On Oct 16, 2019, at 2:31 PM, hh via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> @Dar.
> Did you already try to use QUEMU?
> https://www.qemu.org
> 
> 
> 
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Re: Catalina and stuff other than 32bit—USB broken

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

I'm not sure how this addresses my concern. Uh, rant. Lament. 

If this is an OS problem, then a Hackintosh system would not solve it.
If this is a driver problem, then perhaps Clover will work, but maybe not.
(When I build a machine, I would use Windows or Linux, so—for me—Hackintosh is 
not a solution.)

I like working with USB gadgets on the Mac, but if "Works with Catalina" has to 
become a de facto standard for USB, then Apple is going to lose a market. A 
virtual Windows machine is of no help here. 

Oh, and I said AdaFruit has a fix for Feather boards. It doesn't work for me. 

This also means my advice to use virtual machines for Windows is flawed.

Maybe this is Apple's way of saying I should get a new Mac, but I hear even 
some new Macs have the problem.

> On Oct 14, 2019, at 2:10 PM, Erik Beugelaar via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> That is why I rely for the last 10 years on myself built Hackintosh systems. 
> They run faster for less money and they are modular and easy to upgrade. 
> With the introduction of Clover it has never been a problem to use hardware 
> components (especially graphic cards, wifi/bt cards, sound cards etc.) which 
> were not supported by Apple anymore.
> 
> On 14/10/2019, 21:58, "use-livecode on behalf of Dar Scott Consulting via 
> use-livecode"  use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
>Catalina does not recognize the bootloader for atmega32u4 Arduino boards 
> such as Leonardo. The IDE 1.8.10 avr toolchain works (64-bit); this is not 
> related to 32-bit. 
> 
>Catalina does not recognize the AdaFruit Feather ...BOOT drives. Actually 
> this started with macOS 10.14.4. According to Dan Halbert, "Apple changed how 
> USB devices are recognized on certain Macs", creating a timing problem. 
> AdaFruit has a fix.
> 
>There are some indications that some USB devices made with Jan Atkinson's 
> examples are having problems on Catalina on some hardware.
> 
>I don't know if Apple is stepping outside USB specs or is pushing the 
> specs. Or whether the small board community has been spec-lax. 
> 
>Not directly LiveCode related, but more reason to hesitate, especially for 
> gadget folks like me. 
> 
>Dar Scott
>Mad Scientist
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Catalina and stuff other than 32bit

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

Catalina does not recognize the bootloader for atmega32u4 Arduino boards such 
as Leonardo. The IDE 1.8.10 avr toolchain works (64-bit); this is not related 
to 32-bit. 

Catalina does not recognize the AdaFruit Feather ...BOOT drives. Actually this 
started with macOS 10.14.4. According to Dan Halbert, "Apple changed how USB 
devices are recognized on certain Macs", creating a timing problem. AdaFruit 
has a fix.

There are some indications that some USB devices made with Jan Atkinson's 
examples are having problems on Catalina on some hardware.

I don't know if Apple is stepping outside USB specs or is pushing the specs. Or 
whether the small board community has been spec-lax. 

Not directly LiveCode related, but more reason to hesitate, especially for 
gadget folks like me. 

Dar Scott
Mad Scientist




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Re: Catalina

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

Yes!

We need a cool name like that, too. 
Code32 
MoreMojave
CantLetGo
TimeScope
macWrap32
32Palms
Wrap32with64
DoubleMy32
Sand

It looks like I can't come up with anything as cool as WineBottler

Dar Scott



> On Oct 10, 2019, at 11:51 AM, Richmond via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> This sounds a bit like WineBottler:
> 
> http://winebottler.kronenberg.org/
> 
> On 10.10.19 20:48, Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode wrote:
>> Being a mad scientist causes my mind to wander. I implied some sort of 
>> application that would take a 32-bit macOS app and turn it into a 64-bit app 
>> suitable for delivering to customers in the interim. But I gave solutions 
>> only for a sophisticated user to run 32-bit applications from Catalina (or 
>> so) desktop.
>> 
>> My immediate thoughts: Bundles might make a conversion for the macOS easier. 
>> Dependent 32-bit dynamic libraries would have to be moved into a folder in 
>> the bundle, and file I/O will do redirection. The app's program would be 
>> moved and replaced with something else that uses some sort of 
>> hyper-something to catch the INTs or that will use ptrace() as a debugger 
>> would. In the latter case the INTs might need to be translated statically by 
>> the converter. I have not made a modern debugger, tracer or hyper-thing, so 
>> I'm just guessing.
>> 
>> Dar
>> 
>>> On Oct 10, 2019, at 8:34 AM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Mad scientist indeed! ;-)
>>> 
>>> Bob S
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Oct 9, 2019, at 16:59 , Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode 
>>>>  wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Oh. That looks hard. I don't even know how to take control of the 0x80 
>>>> interrupt.
>>>> 
>>>> However, here are some ideas for alternatives.
>>>> 
>>>> Virtual
>>>> 
>>>> Parallels has Coherence; Virtual Box has Seamless Mode; VMware has Unity. 
>>>> (I don't use these, so check out what I say.) The capability is roughly 
>>>> the same. You can run an application on a client OS in a window on the 
>>>> host. So, if you have an older macOS running on a virtual machine that can 
>>>> run your app, you can set things up so that you can double-click on your 
>>>> desktop and run a 32-bit app.
>>>> 
>>>> Real
>>>> 
>>>> Another method is to set up little "servers" you can remote into. For 
>>>> example, instead of upgrading to Catalina on your old Mac Mini, get a new 
>>>> Mac Mini with Catalina and remote desktop into the old Mac Mini. Or have a 
>>>> Mac that is running several virtual machines you can remote into (use 
>>>> memory ballooning to share it well). The Apple EULA has constraints, but I 
>>>> think this is OK.
>>>> 
>>>> Now, what if you can run an app on a remote machine like 
>>>> Coherence/Unity/SM? You can readily run a single app in a window for a 
>>>> linux server using several programs such as nomachine and (I think) xpra. 
>>>> But I don't know about macOS. Maybe you can make a single-window app full 
>>>> screen and adjust the size of the client window. I haven't tried this.
>>>> 
>>>> Dar Scott
>>>> Mad Scientist
>>> 
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Re: Catalina

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

Being a mad scientist causes my mind to wander. I implied some sort of 
application that would take a 32-bit macOS app and turn it into a 64-bit app 
suitable for delivering to customers in the interim. But I gave solutions only 
for a sophisticated user to run 32-bit applications from Catalina (or so) 
desktop. 

My immediate thoughts: Bundles might make a conversion for the macOS easier. 
Dependent 32-bit dynamic libraries would have to be moved into a folder in the 
bundle, and file I/O will do redirection. The app's program would be moved and 
replaced with something else that uses some sort of hyper-something to catch 
the INTs or that will use ptrace() as a debugger would. In the latter case the 
INTs might need to be translated statically by the converter. I have not made a 
modern debugger, tracer or hyper-thing, so I'm just guessing.

Dar

> On Oct 10, 2019, at 8:34 AM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Mad scientist indeed! ;-)
> 
> Bob S
> 
> 
>> On Oct 9, 2019, at 16:59 , Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Oh. That looks hard. I don't even know how to take control of the 0x80 
>> interrupt.
>> 
>> However, here are some ideas for alternatives.
>> 
>> Virtual
>> 
>> Parallels has Coherence; Virtual Box has Seamless Mode; VMware has Unity. (I 
>> don't use these, so check out what I say.) The capability is roughly the 
>> same. You can run an application on a client OS in a window on the host. So, 
>> if you have an older macOS running on a virtual machine that can run your 
>> app, you can set things up so that you can double-click on your desktop and 
>> run a 32-bit app.
>> 
>> Real
>> 
>> Another method is to set up little "servers" you can remote into. For 
>> example, instead of upgrading to Catalina on your old Mac Mini, get a new 
>> Mac Mini with Catalina and remote desktop into the old Mac Mini. Or have a 
>> Mac that is running several virtual machines you can remote into (use memory 
>> ballooning to share it well). The Apple EULA has constraints, but I think 
>> this is OK. 
>> 
>> Now, what if you can run an app on a remote machine like Coherence/Unity/SM? 
>> You can readily run a single app in a window for a linux server using 
>> several programs such as nomachine and (I think) xpra. But I don't know 
>> about macOS. Maybe you can make a single-window app full screen and adjust 
>> the size of the client window. I haven't tried this.
>> 
>> Dar Scott
>> Mad Scientist
> 
> 
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Re: Catalina

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

Oh. That looks hard. I don't even know how to take control of the 0x80 
interrupt.

However, here are some ideas for alternatives.

Virtual

Parallels has Coherence; Virtual Box has Seamless Mode; VMware has Unity. (I 
don't use these, so check out what I say.) The capability is roughly the same. 
You can run an application on a client OS in a window on the host. So, if you 
have an older macOS running on a virtual machine that can run your app, you can 
set things up so that you can double-click on your desktop and run a 32-bit app.

Real

Another method is to set up little "servers" you can remote into. For example, 
instead of upgrading to Catalina on your old Mac Mini, get a new Mac Mini with 
Catalina and remote desktop into the old Mac Mini. Or have a Mac that is 
running several virtual machines you can remote into (use memory ballooning to 
share it well). The Apple EULA has constraints, but I think this is OK. 

Now, what if you can run an app on a remote machine like Coherence/Unity/SM? 
You can readily run a single app in a window for a linux server using several 
programs such as nomachine and (I think) xpra. But I don't know about macOS. 
Maybe you can make a single-window app full screen and adjust the size of the 
client window. I haven't tried this.

Dar Scott
Mad Scientist

> On Oct 9, 2019, at 3:50 PM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> On 10/9/19 2:03 PM, Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode wrote:
>> I just use macWrap32. Oh. Wait. There isn't one.
> 
> :) Write one for us.
> 
> -- 
> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
> HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
> 
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Re: Catalina

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

I just use macWrap32. Oh. Wait. There isn't one.

> On Oct 9, 2019, at 12:17 PM, kee nethery via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> I’m not so concerned with the latest version of Catalina as I am with some of 
> the software I use ceasing to function. Want to make sure I either update 
> everything to 64bit, find a replacement, or convert documents into a format 
> that will work with the 64bit apps that I do have.
> 
> Kee
> 
>> On Oct 9, 2019, at 11:09 AM, Richmond via use-livecode 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> As far as I know, Catalina "exists" inside its "own protected space", which 
>> means that it
>> is like that awful conversation you have with your embarrassing relative who 
>> is banged
>> up in one of those American prisons we see in Movies with a thickened 
>> plate-glass window
>> and 2 retro telephone handsets . . .
>> 
>> . . . I remember having a conversation in 1993 from Connecticut with my Mum 
>> (for her birthday)
>> in England with one of those cheapo phone cards that went in for fancy 
>> signal-sharing (or something) where,
>> by the time the person heard what you'd had to say at the other end you'd 
>> had time to regret saying.
> 
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Re: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer.

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

Pro. 

If a customer wants you to test on Home, buy it at that time. 

If a customer wants you to test on lots of Windows platforms, get Visual Studio 
Pro and build as many virtual machines or real machines you want (for 
development).

If you are the customer, uh, well, it still applies.


> On Oct 6, 2019, at 2:08 PM, Ralph DiMola via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> I would go with pro. You can defer updates with pro so that Monday demo does
> not go sideways because of a Sunday night forced update.
> 
> Ralph DiMola
> IT Director
> Evergreen Information Services
> rdim...@evergreeninfo.net
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com] On Behalf
> Of Martin Koob via use-livecode
> Sent: Sunday, October 06, 2019 12:21 PM
> To: How to use LiveCode
> Cc: Martin Koob
> Subject: Re: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer. 
> 
> Hi
> 
> I am just setting up Virtual Box now on my iMac.  I need to purchase of copy
> of Windows 10.  I am just wondering whether people would recommend Windows
> 10 Home or Pro.  Any real difference when it comes to developing or testing?
> Is it best again to stick to the lowest common denominator principle and go
> with Windows 10 Home?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Martin Koob
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Oct 4, 2019, at 12:33 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode
>  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> All that said, I've enjoyed the convenience of VMs for decades, and a few
> years ago Mark Wieder suggested I try VirtualBox - never used anything else
> since.  It's free and open source, and when I last used Parallels I found
> VirtualBox was able to restore sessions in a fraction of the time.
>> 
>> With a VM you can share the Clipboard across OSes, as well as folders,
> hardware, and more.  Being able to copy code from my dev OS into the test OS
> has been a godsend of a convenience more times than I can count.
>> 
>> Running a second OS within your main OS will eat some RAM;  Min. 8 GB, 16
> GB feels luxurious.
>> 
>> Whether virtual or physical, the OS choice is no choice: Windows 10 is the
> present and future of Windows.  What I personally prefer doesn't matter for
> testing.  I need what my customers use, and while it can be useful to spin
> up VMs with older Windows versions, Win10 is where the action is today, and
> tomorrow.
> 
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Re: ...and a challenge

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

It doesn't have to be text strings. It could be data (byte strings). This would 
be handy for using the base-16 method for computing pi. In my personal "slow 
math" library, I have tinkered with binary data, float encoded data, and number 
arrays, usually using a decimal point. Division is hard. I tinkered a bit with 
interval arithmetic and want to explore that more. That way I can have 
indefinite precision decimal intervals. Add complex and I will have to change 
my library to "very slow math".

One problem is readability.

> On Oct 5, 2019, at 11:43 PM, Mark Wieder via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> On 10/5/19 8:34 PM, Colin Holgate via use-livecode wrote:
>> Pi is a reserved work, so I used pie. I haven’t seen this way of producing 
>> Pi before, and in both JavaScript and LivceCode it seems to be 
>> instantaneous. I think it’s a rewording of 4*(1-1/3+1/5-1/7+1/9…)
> 
> the Taylor algorithm is similar but different.
> 
>> Anyway, see for yourself
> 
> ...the javascript implementation is *very* fast, and one reason is the BigInt 
> support. You're not going to be able to do this in LC without resorting to 
> string chunks.
> 
>> BTW, I haven’t seen JavaScript using ‘let’ before, or having ’n’ to indicate 
>> a floating point number. That could be a dot net thing.
> 
> See Peter Wood's response.
> 
> -- 
> Mark Wieder
> ahsoftw...@gmail.com
> 
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Re: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer.

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

The original question mentioned testing and debugging. 

I tend to develop on the Mac and test on Windows. At times I need to develop on 
Windows because there are unknowns in the environment or I'm using some Windows 
specific hardware. Especially internal hardware.

It is a big pain to have multiple programming stations, so I set up Windows 
workstations with monitors, keyboards and mice as needed. I prefer to have my 
big wide monitor on my Mac and then remote in. I currently use no-machine to 
access Windows machines.

The focus in the discussion has been on processor, RAM and disk. For me 
however, other hardware is important. That is, that which makes it hard to test 
with virtualization needs to be in the real hardware. And often one needs real 
hardware. Virtual Box has been good to me as far as emulating hardware, but I 
need to test on real stuff.

So, for me, the most important part is not so much processor-RAM-disk, but I/O. 
I want lots of USB and a variety of such, front and back. I want board slots. I 
want multiple NICs. RS-232 is a big plus. A powerful GPU is a plus, but I hope 
to build a computation server someday. Multiple kinds of video is good as well 
as handling multiple monitors. I want Bluetooth and Wifi. I want WoL. Though I 
use no-machine, I want to be able to remote desktop in, so W8.1 needs to be 
Pro. As soon as I get a computer, a customer will come up with something I 
neglected, so those slots are important. I get Pro for everything if I can.) 
For a different machine, I might want something with a touch screen that I can 
carry around.

In my last buy, I compromised. I did not get high performance or slots.

And speaking of Pro, Windows 10 Pro is, out of the box, friendly to us old guys.

As far as development on the Mac, Bootcamp does not work well for me, I want to 
see all of my screens on all of my computers. Parallels is good, but I have 
found that when Parallels and VMWare say no, Virtual Box says yes. What good is 
higher RPM when you can't get it into reverse? In general, virtualization 
allows me to swap out hardware or display sizes quickly, bing, bing, bing. 
Network configuration testing? No searching for switches, routers and cables. 

Just going by my memory (I recommend against trusting it), I do not see a big 
performance hit. I think LiveCode on Windows 10 Pro on Virtual Box 6 on Mac 
Mini runs slightly faster than LiveCode on macOS on MacMini. That could be my 
imagination. Disk I/O might be a lot slower, but it did not affect me. I 
typically use a LAN drive for such testing, anyway, unless the tests directly 
involve a local drive.

I have used MSDN Operating Systems to build a variety of virtual machines and 
to load on real machines. However, things seem to be different. Now the best 
way seems to be Visual Studio Pro, $1200 for the first year, $800 for 
subsequent. 

Dar
Mad Scientist


> On Oct 4, 2019, at 2:34 AM, Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> For anyone truly interested in the original question of "Recommended specs 
> for Windows Development computer"
> 
> (... as opposed to any OS-partisan virtue signaling, or avoiding Windows 
> hardware, or maintaining a single computer as the rule, etc ...)
> 
> here's my take, from many years of often "Windows first, but not Windows 
> only" experience:
> 
> - Biggest OS difference/biggest factor: anti-virus. I've literally seen a Mac 
> running with software techniques similar to today's PC antivirus, and similar 
> results.
> 
> - I don't trust my PC to run Mac, nor my Mac to run PC. I get my hands dirty 
> on both, with dedicated hardware for each. You notice more
> 
> - PC doesn't require a huge investment. I use a budget (but not bottom) 
> laptop with as much hard disk and RAM as possible. Currently an i5 chip and 8 
> GB memory, 1 TB RAM.
> 
> - The specs I listed are quite adequate for professional LC dev. Any extra 
> power feels great, but remember that it also could cause you to overlook 
> issues affecting some of your end users. I intentionally use budget hardware 
> to make sure software is snappy for everyone.
> 
> - Again, with Windows 10 it's all about managing antivirus and various other 
> software/settings to be allowed to use the inherent performance of your 
> machine. The power is in there, but you have to remove the ball and chains.
> 
> - Any OS-partisan biases (in other words reliving the 80s and 90s, which felt 
> so good) will tend to be confirmed by their own cognitive influence on your 
> perception of your limited experiences on another OS. Using a system 
> efficiently takes experience and learning, built into habits. (There once was 
> a system called MacOS that for a number of years pretty much broke that rule. 
> And during those bygone years, I was proudly "Mac-first, but not Mac only.") 
> Whatever OS you use, just realize that many everyday users are equally 
> efficient on the other operating systems.
> 
> I like having and using both 

Re: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer.

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

I have used Parallels, and am now also using Virtual Box on my Mac. I use 
No-Machine to connect to hardware Windows test platforms, and plan to use it 
for other platforms (Linux, iOS, Android, Raspberry Pi). I use MiniWoL to wake 
one machine and plan add Wake-on-LAN to another Windows machine. Even when 
testing on Windows, I edit on Mac and use a network drive for projects. If need 
be, I sit at the Windows hardware. 

> On Oct 3, 2019, at 11:48 AM, Martin Koob via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi
> 
> I need to buy a new desktop PC to be used for LiveCode development including 
> using the new camera control and the player as I am working on a cross 
> platform application for Mac and Windows. 
> 
> I have been developing the application  on on a Mac to this point but need to 
> have the PC for testing and debugging in a Windows environment. 
> 
> Being a Mac guy I am not sure what I should look for in a PC— processor, 
> speed, RAM, etc. I bought a cheap desktop  PC, an Acer AXC-230 a year or so 
> ago for that purpose but that is painfully slow. So I don’t want to make that 
> mistake again. 
> 
> With the comments on speed problems on Windows in the earlier thread I don’t 
> want to get something underpowered. 
> 
> Any suggestions? What are people using?
> 
> Thanks in advance. 
> 
> Martin Koob
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
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Re: open process

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

I'm glad that was helpful. For me, when using open process as a background 
shell is knowing when things are done. In my example, I can wait for non-empty 
read results and then wait for a few empty read results. There is probably a 
better way.

> On Sep 28, 2019, at 11:57 AM, JB via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> It works for me too, Thanks
> 
> Name  Mtu   Network   AddressIpkts IerrsOpkts Oerrs  Coll
> lo0   16384  82239 082239 0 0
> lo0   16384 localhost   ::1  82239 -82239 - -
> lo0   16384 127   localhost  82239 -82239 - -
> lo0   16384 localhost   fe80:1::182239 -82239 - -
> gif0* 1280   0 00 0 0
> stf0* 1280   0 00 0 0
> en0   1500  34:15:9e:26:fa:60  1633080 0  1207358 0 0
> en0   1500  jb.localfe80:4::3615:9eff  1633080 -  1207358 - -
> en0   1500  192.168.0 192.168.0.2  1633080 -  1207358 - -
> en1   1500  7c:6d:62:a4:64:ab0 00 0 0
> fw0   4078  34:15:9e:ff:fe:26:fa:600 00 0 
>     0
> 
> 
> JB
> 
>> On Sep 28, 2019, at 10:24 AM, Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> This works for me, LC 9.5 Mac.
>> 
>> on mouseup
>>  set the cursor to watch
>>  put "netstat -i" into p
>>  put p -- flash
>>  open process p for read
>>  wait 1 seconds with messages
>>  read from process p until empty
>>  close process p
>>  put it
>> end mouseup
>> 
>> 
>>> On Sep 28, 2019, at 8:05 AM, JB via use-livecode 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> In a shell command I can execute a external program
>>> using the following code:
>>> 
>>> on mouseUp
>>> set the defaultFolder to desktop
>>> put “myPic.jpg" into tFILE1
>>> put “myPic copy.jpg" into tFILE2
>>> put shell( "./copy" && quote & tFILE1 & quote && quote & tFILE2 & quote) 
>>> into pData
>>> answer question pData  —will be success or failed
>>> end mouseUp
>>> 
>>> The code above will execute a program that has two arguments which are
>>> the source file and destination file.  It is a simple copy program.
>>> 
>>> I was reading about open process:
>>> --open process appName [for [text|binary] {read | write | update | neither}]
>>> 
>>> I can open a process and execute the above mentioned external program
>>> but I am not able to supply the arguments.
>>> 
>>> Is it possible using open process to execute a program with arguments
>>> and if it is would it be better to use the shell command or open process?
>>> 
>>> I know if you use a shell command it takes control until it is done and
>>> open process might run in the background which I do not really need
>>> that I know of in this instance.
>>> 
>>> JB
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Re: open process

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

This works for me, LC 9.5 Mac.

on mouseup
   set the cursor to watch
   put "netstat -i" into p
   put p -- flash
   open process p for read
   wait 1 seconds with messages
   read from process p until empty
   close process p
   put it
end mouseup


> On Sep 28, 2019, at 8:05 AM, JB via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> In a shell command I can execute a external program
> using the following code:
> 
> on mouseUp
>  set the defaultFolder to desktop
>   put “myPic.jpg" into tFILE1
>   put “myPic copy.jpg" into tFILE2
>   put shell( "./copy" && quote & tFILE1 & quote && quote & tFILE2 & quote) 
> into pData
>   answer question pData  —will be success or failed
> end mouseUp
> 
> The code above will execute a program that has two arguments which are
> the source file and destination file.  It is a simple copy program.
> 
> I was reading about open process:
>   --open process appName [for [text|binary] {read | write | update | neither}]
> 
> I can open a process and execute the above mentioned external program
> but I am not able to supply the arguments.
> 
> Is it possible using open process to execute a program with arguments
> and if it is would it be better to use the shell command or open process?
> 
> I know if you use a shell command it takes control until it is done and
> open process might run in the background which I do not really need
> that I know of in this instance.
> 
> JB
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Re: LC Garbage Collection?

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

I don't think that is large. If you are processing data the same size and 
somehow leaving the previous data around, that might build up. That might build 
up in queues and stacks, in a message storm and in appended data. But, I am 
guessing that that is not likely.

> On Sep 26, 2019, at 1:54 PM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> On 9/24/19 2:39 PM, Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode wrote:
>> Sources of memory leaks are LC, LC scripts, OS, libraries, LCB and (I 
>> suppose) compilers. I don't think we can assume the problem is not in the 
>> user script. I have seen script memory leaks like these:
>> 1. Leaving large data in script locals
> ...
> 
> Is 2.5MB considered large data? I'm having issues on my Pixel that I think 
> may be memory-related.
> 
> -- 
> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
> HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
> 
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Re: LC Garbage Collection?

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

Yeah, "GUI recursion" is a little obtuse.

I'm referring to a style of using wait with messages inside an event handler so 
that other events (especially keyboard and mouse) can be handled. Sometimes 
this is done to allow a "background" task. It is easy to do this in a way that 
makes a mess of things. One scenario is loading a large file at the start of a 
mouseUp and then use lots of wait with messages sprinkled throughout, but the 
task somehow gets started several times and memory usage is a problem.

Of course one can be very careful and consider what problems might happen, so 
this is not a hard and fast admonition. The use of busy flags can help.

I do this occasionally when experimenting with move, but I move away 
immediately.

And I do like the idea of writing a "background" the way one thinks of it and 
sprinkling in some waits, but as soon as things expand (you want to do two 
things in the background), then this falls apart. 

I encourage embracing event programming.

> On Sep 24, 2019, at 2:43 PM, Tom Glod via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> HH...yup I know.. Dar, thanks for those hints and tidbits, I'll be
> putting those right into my pocket as i optimize code going forward.
> 
> I have pretty good cleanup habits, so  I am getting good results with how
> it is (in 9.05) . but sometimes its scary.  It like the GC happens only
> when things are idle and quietmaybe there is a threshold.
> 
> When you say GUI recursiondo you meanif i draw interfaces using
> functions that call themselves?
> 
> On Tue, Sep 24, 2019 at 3:40 PM Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
>> I don't know where you will find details. (Maybe if we keep this
>> conversation going, we will get a response in a half day.)
>> 
>> I believe it is reference-counting with lazy cleanup for high-level
>> objects, but with carefully crafted destructors for low level objects.
>> Because of the lazy cleanup, it is sometimes hard to see when memory
>> problems occur or to infer GC behavior
>> 
>> But, to me it doesn't matter. I like the memory management of LiveCode. It
>> cleans up. It doesn't have astonishingly-long pauses that I remember. It
>> would be nice to know that cleanup is not delayed forever, though, and for
>> that I am not sure. I have only run into memory problems with some ML
>> projects, so my experience might not shed much light.
>> 
>> Sources of memory leaks are LC, LC scripts, OS, libraries, LCB and (I
>> suppose) compilers. I don't think we can assume the problem is not in the
>> user script. I have seen script memory leaks like these:
>> 1. Leaving large data in script locals
>> 2. Indefinite log variables
>> 3. Poor range checking in recursive functions
>> 4. mouseUp recursion*
>> 5. Queue/stack bugs
>> 6. Bad parsing
>> 
>> *GUI recursion is a root of all kinds of evil. If tempted, leave your
>> cloak and run.
>> 
>> Dar Scott
>> Mad Scientist
>> 
>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:36 PM, Tom Glod via use-livecode <
>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi folks, I'm wondering if anyone can help me to understand Livecode's
>>> garbage collection.  I am developing an application that is intended to
>>> stay in memory and so I must watch memory consumption carefully. I've had
>>> some instances where memory ran way out of control but I found a
>> couple
>>> of reasons for that.. one of them being the dozen or so memory leaks
>>> that were fixed in 9.05.
>>> 
>>> When I build the standalone in 9.04 its a disaster. When I build with
>> 9.05
>>> I am very impressed with my application clearing its own memory. even
>>> to the point where it consumes less than what it does when the standalone
>>> first starts up
>>> 
>>> But it seems arbitrary.  Where can I go to find out more details about
>> the
>>> engine's GC?
>>> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> 
>>> Tom Glod
>>> Founder & Developer
>>> MakeShyft R.D.A (www.makeshyft.com)
>>> Office:226-706-9339
>>> Mobile:226-706-9793
>>> ___
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>> subscription preferences:
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>> 
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Re: LC Garbage Collection?

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

I don't know where you will find details. (Maybe if we keep this conversation 
going, we will get a response in a half day.)

I believe it is reference-counting with lazy cleanup for high-level objects, 
but with carefully crafted destructors for low level objects. Because of the 
lazy cleanup, it is sometimes hard to see when memory problems occur or to 
infer GC behavior

But, to me it doesn't matter. I like the memory management of LiveCode. It 
cleans up. It doesn't have astonishingly-long pauses that I remember. It would 
be nice to know that cleanup is not delayed forever, though, and for that I am 
not sure. I have only run into memory problems with some ML projects, so my 
experience might not shed much light.

Sources of memory leaks are LC, LC scripts, OS, libraries, LCB and (I suppose) 
compilers. I don't think we can assume the problem is not in the user script. I 
have seen script memory leaks like these:
1. Leaving large data in script locals
2. Indefinite log variables
3. Poor range checking in recursive functions
4. mouseUp recursion*
5. Queue/stack bugs
6. Bad parsing

*GUI recursion is a root of all kinds of evil. If tempted, leave your cloak and 
run.

Dar Scott
Mad Scientist

> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:36 PM, Tom Glod via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi folks, I'm wondering if anyone can help me to understand Livecode's
> garbage collection.  I am developing an application that is intended to
> stay in memory and so I must watch memory consumption carefully. I've had
> some instances where memory ran way out of control but I found a couple
> of reasons for that.. one of them being the dozen or so memory leaks
> that were fixed in 9.05.
> 
> When I build the standalone in 9.04 its a disaster. When I build with 9.05
> I am very impressed with my application clearing its own memory. even
> to the point where it consumes less than what it does when the standalone
> first starts up
> 
> But it seems arbitrary.  Where can I go to find out more details about the
> engine's GC?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Tom Glod
> Founder & Developer
> MakeShyft R.D.A (www.makeshyft.com)
> Office:226-706-9339
> Mobile:226-706-9793
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Re: Android architectures

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

friended

> On Sep 22, 2019, at 5:07 AM, JJS via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> What's the meaning of hibernated on the quality site?

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Re: Guess encoding for text file...

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

And I thought 2 bits was a quarter. 

> On Sep 19, 2019, at 1:23 PM, Jerry Jensen via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> On Sep 19, 2019, at 11:53 AM, Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
>> 
>> Yeah. I love the smell of burning bytes.
> 
> 4 bits is called a nybble, and
> 2 bits is called a snyf.
> 
> 
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Re: Guess encoding for text file...

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

Yeah. I love the smell of burning bytes.

> On Sep 19, 2019, at 12:19 PM, Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> 'Cuz I don't even plan to use a loop if it ain't strictly called for
> 
> What's that smell? Oh yeah, burning bytes. :)
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
> Curry Kenworthy
> 
> Custom Software Development
> "Better Methods, Better Results"
> LiveCode Training and Consulting
> http://livecodeconsulting.com/
> 
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Re: Guess encoding for text file...

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

UTF-16 and UTF-32 are not needed in your list. Those are BE unless indicated 
otherwise by a leading BOM. That is, the BE and LE versions are sufficient. 

ASCII encoding is a subset of CP1252, MacRoman and UTF-8, so that can be 
classified as UTF-8 if there is no advantage to knowing that it is ASCII. 
(Printable ASCII is a subset of ISO-8859-1). 

A couple thoughts in creating a custom function. Your special codes in ASCII 
files of 1, 2, 3 and 4 can be considered in a custom function. You might have a 
good idea in just 128 bytes or maybe a few iterations of 32 bytes. You can 
consider an a priori ordering of likelihood, related to the question of which 
tests provide the most information in the least time. And if you can't tell the 
difference, then maybe it doesn't matter. 

I considered some methods of adjusting probabilities but the overhead means the 
test chunks should not be trivial. Also, the probability might be simplified to 
"maybe" and "nope". (However, if there might be errors in the text or 
discernment needs to rely on text probabilities, the numbers might be best.)  
Tests move probabilities from maybe to nope.

One method might do a batch of unsigned 32-bit int decodes and do logic 
operations on each of those. That can only do partial elimination tests on 
UTF-8, but detailed tests can be done afterward. I am not sure about 
performance, it might be that byteToNum() would be much faster.

I'm guessing that one can get some good probabilities from the first four bytes.

So, I agree with Curry. He might not use anything I mentioned, but he can 
optimize your code for longer files, if you need full checking.

> On Sep 17, 2019, at 2:05 PM, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> I started this post of the DEV-LIST. Mark Waddingham kindly responded and 
> smartly suggested I should move it to the USE-LIST, so that is what I am 
> doing. I have also pasted Lark's reply below my original post.
> 
> -- ORIGINAL POST 
> 
> I have a LiveCode Script (LCS) routine that attempts to follow industry 
> common algorithms for guessing the encoding of a text file.
> 
> It's performance can be slower than I would like.
> 
> This has led me to wonder in a LiveCode Builder (LCB) library may be the 
> route to go. Does anyone know the OSX and/or Windows APIs for guessing a text 
> file's encoding?
> 
> I have done a number of google searches, but I am not a C programmer (not in 
> many decades) and wading through the huge doc sets at MSDN or Apple is 
> daunting.
> 
> I found reference to a windows API:
> 
> BOOL IsTextUnicode( const VOID *lpv, int iSize, LPINT lpiResult );
> 
> Which suggests to me that such APIs may exists. Does anyone who is better at 
> finding OS APIs know where to find such APIs? Can you point me to the right 
> online documentation?
> 
> I also found this: 
> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/3825390/effective-way-to-find-any-files-encoding
> 
> Of course, it would be wonderful if the mothership delivered this. At one 
> point Frasier said he would back around LC7 something.
> 
> https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=14474
> 
> It seems an LCB library that uses OS APIs to return best guess for file 
> encoding that match up with the textEncode/Decode functions would be a great 
> addition to LC
> 
>  * "ASCII"
>  * "UTF-16"
>  * "UTF-16BE"
>  * "UTF-16LE"
>  * "UTF-32"
>  * "UTF-32BE"
>  * "UTF-32LE"
>  * "UTF-8"
>  * "CP1252"
>  * "ISO-8859-1"
>  * "MacRoman"
> 
> and I suppose "Binary" as the default if none of the above can be detected
> 
> - MARK'S REPLY 
> On 2019-09-13 16:44, Paul Dupuis wrote:
> > I have a LiveCode Script (LCS) routine that attempts to follow
> > industry common algorithms for guessing the encoding of a text file.
> >
> > It's performance can be slower than I would like.
> 
> If you share your code perhaps we can help speed it up...
> 
> > This has led me to wonder in a LiveCode Builder (LCB) library may be
> > the route to go. Does anyone know the OSX and/or Windows APIs for
> > guessing a text file's encoding?
> >
> > I have done a number of google searches, but I am not a C programmer
> > (not in many decades) and wading through the huge doc sets at MSDN or
> > Apple is daunting.
> >
> > I found reference to a windows API:
> >
> > BOOL IsTextUnicode(
> >   const VOID *lpv,
> >   intiSize,
> >   LPINT  lpiResult
> > );
> >
> >  Which suggests to me that such APIs may exists. Does anyone who is
> > better at finding OS APIs know where to find such APIs? Can you point
> > me to the right online documentation?
> 
> Libraries certainly exist: Mozilla has a 'universal charset detector library' 
> for example, which appears to use various statistical heuristics to tell 
> between all kinds of encodings.
> 
> The 'IsTextUnicode' API seems to just tell you whether a sequence of bytes is 
> likely to be UTF-16 or not UTF-16; 

Re: Sorting strangeness

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

I love puzzles.

The dictionary says the "text" sort is a codePoint, which I understand as raw. 
I did a codePoint dump on the original text and got this (decimal):

67 104 105 110 101 115 101 32 20013 25991 10

71 101 111 114 103 105 97 110 32 4325 4304 4320 4311 4323 4314 4312 10

65 114 97 98 105 99 32 1593 1585 1576 1609 10

71 114 101 101 107 32 917 955 955 951 957 953 954 940 10

82 117 115 115 105 97 110 32 1088 1091 1089 1089 1082 1080 1081 10

78 111 114 119 101 103 105 97 110 32 78 111 114 115 107 


You can see the first codePoint is in the ASCII subset and should sort ASCII 
based on the dictionary description. I even dumped each line separately and got 
consistent results.

I tried removing all lines except the two interesting ones and then removing 
the Russian from the Russian line. That sorted as expected. 

I think the dictionary description is wrong. 

My locale is US English. 


Dar Scott
Owner
Dar Scott Consulting [Services]

Mad Scientist
darzLab

> On Sep 16, 2019, at 10:10 AM, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Okay, here is a Monday morning puzzler for folks:
> 
> Take the following text:
> 
> Chinese 中文
> Georgian ქართული
> Arabic عربى
> Greek Ελληνικά
> Russian русский
> Norwegian Norsk
> 
> "sort lines of  ascending international" produces exactly what 
> is expected:
> 
> Arabic عربى
> Chinese 中文
> Georgian ქართული
> Greek Ελληνικά
> Norwegian Norsk
> Russian русский
> 
> However, "sort lines of  ascending text" produces:
> 
> Arabic عربى
> Chinese 中文
> Georgian ქართული
> Greek Ελληνικά
> Russian русский
> Norwegian Norsk
> 
> Now, WHY should Russian appear BEFORE Norwegian with R before N in treating 
> it as a straight ASCII sort ("text")???
> 
> Try it yourself in LC9.0.5rc1. Is this a BUG? or should unpredictable results 
> be expected if using a default (as "text" is the default) sort of text in 
> LC9.0.5?
> 
> 
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Re: LC Server UT08 Encode Error

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

Yes. A0 looks like the middle of a sequence of UTF-8 bytes for one character. 
Hitting that will cause an error.

I wonder why the db complained about CA and 59.  

> On Sep 13, 2019, at 4:10 PM, Rick Harrison via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi Bob and Dar,
> 
> Thanks for getting back to me on this.
> 
> After going through the LC list archives,
> I came across a helpful tool called
> "Unicode Checker” that was originally
> suggested by Richmond Mathewson.
> (Thanks for that by the way.)
> 
> There is a nice little utility inside of it that
> allowed me to compare the string from
> Pages that I pasted to the the string that
> I had cleaned with BBEdit.  The only
> differences found was a 000A 
> and a few 00A0 (NO-BREAK SPACEs).
> 
> I suspect it is the control character really
> screwing things up. (I don’t know how
> it got into the string.)
> 
> I am not using the accept-charset attribute
> in the  statement.  If not specified
> it is supposed to use the default which I’m
> guessing is UTF-8.  I supposed I could try
> a test with the attribute specified to see if 
> it makes any difference.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Rick
> 
> 
>> On Sep 13, 2019, at 5:36 PM, Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> When you Zap Gremlins, are you removing non-ASCII or converting to ASCII? 
>> Maybe you can do the same thing before saving to the db. 
>> 
>> Codes 0xca 0x59 do form an invalid UTF-8 sequence. They are good letters in 
>> both Latin-1 and CP1252, so I'm not getting a hint.
>> 
>> Wild, wild guess... Are you using an accept-charset attribute in ? 
>> Maybe fiddling with that will help.
>> 
> 
> 
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Re: LC Server UT08 Encode Error

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

When you Zap Gremlins, are you removing non-ASCII or converting to ASCII? Maybe 
you can do the same thing before saving to the db. 

Codes 0xca 0x59 do form an invalid UTF-8 sequence. They are good letters in 
both Latin-1 and CP1252, so I'm not getting a hint.

Wild, wild guess... Are you using an accept-charset attribute in ? Maybe 
fiddling with that will help.

> On Sep 12, 2019, at 7:21 PM, Rick Harrison via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> I am having a problem with LC Server
> posting data to my Postgresql database.
> (LC Server version 9.0.4)
> 
> If I type into a form field such as for
> a field named “description”, and submit
> the field, it goes into the database without
> any problems whatsoever.
> 
> If I compose a description in an application
> such as Apple’s Pages or in Text Edit, and
> then copy and paste the text into the
> description field.  It throws an error.
> 
> ERROR: invalid byte sequence for
> encoding "UTF8": 0xca 0x59 (0)
> 
> Of course due to this error the
> record never gets written out to
> the database.
> 
> I know this error is due to gremlins
> in the text because if I zap gremlins 
> with BBEdit and then copy and
> paste into the field, everything
> works fine!
> 
> I’m sure that other users will
> probably use a copy and paste
> method at some point, so I need
> to scrub the data somehow to
> prevent the error from occurring.
> 
> Or is this an encoding/decoding
> problem requiring some other
> solution?
> 
> Suggestions?
> 
> Rick
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Re: OT: Catalina - the end of ad hoc & in-house development?

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

Keeping a clear look at things... That $100/yr does include "beta OS releases, 
advanced app capabilities, technical support, and tools to develop, test, and 
distribute apps." At one time one could get past OSs, but I don't think it is 
the case now. And you could go down to the test warehouse and test on old 
machines.

On the Windows side, I have used MSDN Universal ($2200/yr) and MSDN Operating 
Systems ($700/yr) in the past. The latter might be comparable to the Apple 
Developer membership. Well, it was when you could get past OSes from Apple.

I have seen ads for codesigning certs that work for both Apple and Windows. I 
don't know what that means. And I don't know why the fees for 2nd and 3rd years 
are so high.

Dar

Senior Consultant
Dar Scott Consulting

Mad Scientist
darzLab

> On Sep 11, 2019, at 2:38 AM, JJS via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> The ratio of money asked from devs is also of course: (considered mobile)
> 
> Mobile Operating Systems  Percentage Market Share
> Mobile Operating System Market Share Worldwide - August 2019
> Android   76.23%
> iOS   22.17%
> KaiOS 0.59%
> Unknown   0.26%
> Samsung   0.21%
> Windows   0.2%
> 
> So apple iOs is somewhat increasing this year, in 2018 it was 15% worldwide.
> 
> Apple asks 100$ yearly --iOs/ (and macOS)
> 
> Google ask 25$ one time fee -- Android
> 
> Amazon is FREE ! (for the time being) -- Kindle which is just Android
> 
> You can also use other platforms for free like Fdroid
> 
> Beats me why Apple charges so much yearly while the gain i think is to lower 
> that cost as they earn money from your sales anyway.
> 
> Is there an alternative platform for iOs/macOs ?
> 
> 
> Op 11-9-2019 om 07:57 schreef Peter Reid via use-livecode:
>> I've been reading the responses to my original posting with interest. My 
>> thoughts are as follows:
>> 
>> 1. Matthias Rebbe's tutorial and helper stack seem to be excellent and 
>> appear to be the best way of complying with Apple's requirements, for now. 
>> Let's hope that Matthias can maintain this as Apple move the goalposts over 
>> time! If Matthias is unable to sustain these aids I'd hope that the LC 
>> mothership would adopt them.
>> 
>> 2. A lot of the apps I develop are used by immediate friends and family (and 
>> a tiny circle of customers). They are private developments for use in closed 
>> communities. Apple have no right to be involved in these and the extended 
>> development cycle caused by their involvement is just unnecessary pain.
>> 
>> 3. If Apple's measures really did provide bullet-proof protection the pain 
>> could be justified given the gain. However we know that this protection 
>> process is continuous and it becomes more and more onerous over time whilst 
>> still providing partial protection for a limited time.
>> 
>> 4. If the Apple measures were a simple switchable setting I could switch 
>> them off whilst I check the user experience for a new user. Then I could 
>> switch the features back on to see the fully Apple-ised experience. As it is 
>> now, using the current Catalina beta on my development Mac, I see no 
>> blocking or warnings. So I've no way of testing the user experience on my 
>> development Mac. I have to find another Mac to act as my newbie user. Even 
>> then if such a Mac has been a previous newbie, how do you neutralise it to 
>> relive the newbie experience?
>> 
>> 5. The $100 charge each year is inexcusable. Basically Apple are saying 
>> "We'll make any app development more tedious unless you pay up $100 every 
>> year.". Even the development of the simplest app, to be used as a temporary 
>> tool by a couple of friends will be blighted by warnings,  etc. if you don't 
>> pay $100 per year and jump through the hoops! Apple are deliberately making 
>> life more difficult and charging us $100 a year for the privilege!
>> 
>> 6. I wonder how much developer time world-wide is wasted jumping through 
>> Apple's hoops, especially those developers without the benefit of LC and 
>> Matthias' tools?
>> 
>> 7. If a new-to-LC developer wants to do the usual "Hello World" trivial 1st 
>> app (making an executable standalone app), they have to understand 
>> code-signing, notarising and stapling, DMG/ZIP creation and be 
>> signed/paid-up Apple developers.
>> 
>> Thanks to Matthias, you're a life/sanity saver, but I still find the 
>> prospects as an app developer rather depressing!
>> 
>> Peter
>> --
>> Peter Reid
>> Loughborough, UK
>> 
>> 
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Re: Merge and unicode

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

Because htmlText does not set the metadata to interesting characters, you can 
consider this workaround:

Change the quotes in tCONCEPT to  and . And, thus, in tMETADATA.

> On Sep 10, 2019, at 12:47 PM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> :)
> 1. Jacque is very confused too, but is afraid of big sticks.
> 2. Encoding should be identical throughout. I'm working with a large text 
> block, pulling out sections to create a list. All data is retrieved from othe 
> same variable, which is UTF16 native LC text.
> 3. The metadata is only set at the "paragraph" level, which I need instead of 
> "line" because there is a soft return in each entry.
> 4. I did try to textDecode the metadata, but since it was already decoded in 
> the source, decoding came out as garbage. I even tried encoding it too, 
> knowing it wouldn't work, and I was right.
> 
> Solution: urlEncode the metadata before merging, and urlDecode after 
> retrieval. When my example is urlEncoded it becomes a simple string:
> PP04_The+%D2Mystery%D3+of+Marriage
> 
> I suppose anything that makes ascii out of the text would work, like base64.
> 
> On 9/10/19 1:04 PM, dsc--- via use-livecode wrote:
>> Jacque, these are my latest thoughts as far as possible problems.
>> 1. Dar is very confused and off in the wrong direction. Use big stick.
>> 2. Binary data is in an 8-bit char set encoding causing problems with UTF-8 
>> decode. Check encoding.
>> 3. Field, line and character metadata are interfering. Clear all, then set 
>> and get consistently.
>> 4. Merge is not handling binary data as text. Use textDecode first.
>> Dar Scott
>> Mad Scientist
> 
> 
> -- 
> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
> HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
> 
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Re: Merge and unicode

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

I looked at this some more on OS X. I'm not seeing a problem with merge. And 
I'm not seeing a problem with metadata per se, I don't think. But I am seeing a 
problem with setting metadata with htmlText. 


> On Sep 10, 2019, at 1:32 PM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> On 9/10/19 1:47 PM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode wrote:
>> :)
>> 1. Jacque is very confused too, but is afraid of big sticks.
>> 2. Encoding should be identical throughout. I'm working with a large text 
>> block, pulling out sections to create a list. All data is retrieved from 
>> othe same variable, which is UTF16 native LC text.
>> 3. The metadata is only set at the "paragraph" level, which I need instead 
>> of "line" because there is a soft return in each entry.
>> 4. I did try to textDecode the metadata, but since it was already decoded in 
>> the source, decoding came out as garbage. I even tried encoding it too, 
>> knowing it wouldn't work, and I was right.
>> Solution: urlEncode the metadata before merging, and urlDecode after 
>> retrieval. When my example is urlEncoded it becomes a simple string:
>> PP04_The+%D2Mystery%D3+of+Marriage
> 
> Blah. URLEncode/decode works fine on desktop (Mac) but on Android it fails. 
> For some reason on Android I get this:
> PP04_The%2B%253FMystery%253F%2Bof%2BMarriage
> 
> All tests are in LC 9.5 so there should be no difference, right?
> -- 
> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
> HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
> 
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Re: Merge and unicode

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

Trusting...

Also, interpreting Latin-1 as UTF-8 can generate some weird characters and lots 
of ?-diamond symbols.

> On Sep 10, 2019, at 8:36 AM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Trust me it's better than a feral gander persuit. 
> 
> Bob S
> 
> 
>> On Sep 9, 2019, at 17:23 , Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Sorry, if I am off on a bunny trail...
>> 
>> Dar
> 
> 
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Re: Merge and unicode

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

This quick check seems to work for me.

on mouseup

put "A" into field 1

set the metadata of char 1 of field 1 to "é"

put the metadata of char 1 of field 1 after field 1

end mouseup


> On Sep 9, 2019, at 8:32 PM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Well, I've made some changes to the code since I started urlEncoding the text 
> before merging so I'll check that again. Paul is right that unicode in 
> htmltext needs to be in hex, but the numbers I'm getting back are very high 
> (8,000+) and render in the field as strange pictographs. Elsewhere where 
> there is no merge, curly quotes translate to the named quote or apostrophe 
> entities and are correct.
> 
> By metadata I mean the LC term (see the dictionary) that allows you to attach 
> some text to a field text chunk. The metadata isn't displayed in the field 
> but you can use it for anything you want. In my case the field is a list of 
> clickable entries in a table of contents, each with its own metadata attached 
> that provides a path to the stack and card the entry needs to open.
> 
> When I use normal LC text as metadata, diacriticals aren't rendered correctly 
> (curly quotes become question marks,) the path is therefore incorrect and the 
> click goes nowhere.
> 
> Since LC is supposed to be unicode throughout, I'd expect metadata to be 
> compatible. The same text appears correctly when not used as metadata.
> --
> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
> HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
> On September 9, 2019 7:25:28 PM Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
>> I think you are trying to think too much about the LC implementation of 
>> text. Maybe.
>> 
>> Text in LC is an abstraction of a sequence of code points. Whether it is 
>> UTF16 or not is hidden to me. (mostly)
>> 
>> So,
>> 
>> get textDecode( binaryFromServer, "UTF-8" )
>> 
>> should put that into the correct form, if it is really UTF-8.
>> 
>> A data (binary bytes) is interpreted as native encoding if one tries to use 
>> it as text. I recommend against this. I try to always textDecode() 
>> everything coming in, but I make exceptions at times for ASCII.
>> 
>> I'm not sure what you mean by metadata. Are you referring to HTTP 
>> content-type?
>> 
>> Sorry, if I am off on a bunny trail...
>> 
>> Dar
>> 
>>> On Sep 9, 2019, at 4:38 PM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> It's UTF8 text from a server, which I textDecode to UTF16. When I use the 
>>> UTF16 text in a merge, diacriticals and/or curly quotes get mangled. (Same 
>>> with setting metadata on field text too.)
>>> 
>>> On 9/9/19 4:16 PM, Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode wrote:
>>>> I'm not sure I understand.
>>>> Do you mean "encoded to UTF-16"? In that case you should decode that to 
>>>> convert it to internal text. And then try merge. (Which still might have 
>>>> problems, I suppose.)
>>>>> On Sep 9, 2019, at 12:08 PM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode 
>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> It seems that the merge command doesn't respect unicode. Does anyone have 
>>>>> a workaround? The text I'm inserting is already decoded to UTF16.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> --
>>>>> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
>>>>> HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
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>>> 
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>>> 
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>>>

Re: Merge and unicode

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

I think you are trying to think too much about the LC implementation of text. 
Maybe.

Text in LC is an abstraction of a sequence of code points. Whether it is UTF16 
or not is hidden to me. (mostly) 

So,

get textDecode( binaryFromServer, "UTF-8" )

should put that into the correct form, if it is really UTF-8.

A data (binary bytes) is interpreted as native encoding if one tries to use it 
as text. I recommend against this. I try to always textDecode() everything 
coming in, but I make exceptions at times for ASCII. 

I'm not sure what you mean by metadata. Are you referring to HTTP content-type?

Sorry, if I am off on a bunny trail...

Dar

> On Sep 9, 2019, at 4:38 PM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> It's UTF8 text from a server, which I textDecode to UTF16. When I use the 
> UTF16 text in a merge, diacriticals and/or curly quotes get mangled. (Same 
> with setting metadata on field text too.)
> 
> On 9/9/19 4:16 PM, Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode wrote:
>> I'm not sure I understand.
>> Do you mean "encoded to UTF-16"? In that case you should decode that to 
>> convert it to internal text. And then try merge. (Which still might have 
>> problems, I suppose.)
>>> On Sep 9, 2019, at 12:08 PM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> It seems that the merge command doesn't respect unicode. Does anyone have a 
>>> workaround? The text I'm inserting is already decoded to UTF16.
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
>>> HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
>>> 
>>> ___
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> 
> -- 
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> 
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Re: Merge and unicode

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

I'm not sure I understand. 

Do you mean "encoded to UTF-16"? In that case you should decode that to convert 
it to internal text. And then try merge. (Which still might have problems, I 
suppose.)


> On Sep 9, 2019, at 12:08 PM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> It seems that the merge command doesn't respect unicode. Does anyone have a 
> workaround? The text I'm inserting is already decoded to UTF16.
> 
> -- 
> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
> HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
> 
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Re: OT: Catalina - the end of ad hoc & in-house development?

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

Thank you for your work in this. 

I like the idea of identity signing of files, documents, programs, messages and 
links. I was all PGP at one time. I am making a shortlist of Electronic Lab 
Notebooks, and automated time-stamping and easy page/paragraph signing are 
important features. I encourage customers to sign documents and I am pleased 
to. In principle, I like codesigning. I like the idea of customers far away and 
great grandchildren knowing that I wrote something and they can be assured. 
However, I dream of an ideal world in which I can establish an identity once 
and then check a box in the preferences in my IDE. 

For every person there is a cost, both in the learning curve and in money ($100 
per year for Apple IIRC and about the same for Windows). The yearly vetting is 
a racket; I can assure folks I rarely turn into somebody else. And the Apple 
patronizing is a high cost psychologically. But it is like taxes and typhoons, 
it is the adventure I am handed in life and I address that.

So, I'm ready to renew my Apple Developer membership (cheaper than MSDN) and 
jump into the fray. I will take heart and enter the next decade.

I skimmed over the lesson. I'm going to go rest.

Dar Scott
Mad Scientist


PS: Wasn't Stuxnet codesigned? 


> On Sep 9, 2019, at 12:07 PM, Matthias Rebbe via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Although i understand anyone´s concern about Apple new requirement for 
> notarization, i welcome Apple´s effort to make Mac OS X apps more secure for 
> the users. I was also not very happy when i first heard that  10.14.6 will 
> not start unnotarized apps right away. 
> 
> But what are our options here?
> Either we stop developing for Apple or we fulfill Apple´s requirements. 
> Everyone has to decide for her/himself, if the extra work for this 
> Notarization is worth it.
> 
> Even if there is a way to run unnotarized apps under Mojave by going to 
> security control panel and allow the app to be opened, i think this is not 
> very user friendly and also not not very trustworthy, regardless if it is a 
> free or a commercial app.
> 
> 
> Under  Windows developers have to purchase a CodeSigining Certificate which 
> costs from 79,- to 300,- USD, depending on where you buy from and depending 
> on the type of the certificate, to be able to codesign.  And if i remember 
> right, also under future Windows versions it will be more difficult to run 
> unsigned Apps. At least there will be a popup with a warning message, this is 
> currently in Win10 the case. That is also not very trustworthy, isn´t it?
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway, some weeks ago i´ve posted a link to a Livecode lesson which not only 
> describes the required manual steps to notarize and staple an app for 
> distribution outside the Mac Appstore , but also includes an helper stack 
> which does all the needed steps.
> 
> You´ll find the lesson here: 
> 
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Matthias
> 
> Matthias Rebbe
> 
> free tools for Livecoders:
> InstaMaker 
> WinSignMaker Mac 
>> Am 07.09.2019 um 13:18 schrieb Peter Reid via use-livecode 
>> mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>>:
>> 
>> I've been using LiveCode as my development platform since 1999. Practically 
>> all the apps I've developed have been for in-house use by my family, friends 
>> and customers - all very low numbers of copies distributed in an informal 
>> manner. I've no interest in App Store distribution and the users of my apps 
>> trust me such that they do not need my apps to be "approved" by Apple. 
>> What's more important to them is how quickly I can release new apps and new 
>> versions of existing apps.
>> 
>> Up to and including macOS Mojave my users can run my apps with the minor 
>> inconvenience of having to right-click an app and approve its use, just 
>> once. With macOS Catalina, if I understand things, it's not so simple, 
>> instead these are the options:
>> 
>> 1. Code-sign and notarise my apps – I'm not interested in this for my kind 
>> of apps which are essentially in-house/at home developments.
>> 
>> 2. Using an active Internet connection, go through the right-click technique 
>> as now not just once, but EVERY time the app is opened.
>> 
>> In the past the 'Security & Privacy' General tab had a 3rd option for the 
>> setting 'Allow apps downloaded from:' which allowed you to install and use 
>> apps from any source. It seems that this is not possible with Catalina.
>> 
>> So with Catalina my users will need an Internet connection and will have to 
>> go through the right-click authorisation process every time they open one of 
>> my apps.
>> 
>> More seriously, it is becoming increasingly difficult to recommend the 
>> combination of the Mac plus LiveCode for app development. Up to now I've 
>> done all my app development on Mac+LC, even where the 

Re: OT: Catalina - the end of ad hoc & in-house development?

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

Maybe developers should have been pushing for code signing some time ago—on 
their own terms. 

> On Sep 8, 2019, at 8:10 AM, Rick Harrison via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> That may be exactly what happens next if the big guys continue with their 
> nonsense.
> More developers will rebel and leave their platforms altogether in favor of 
> Linux.
> 
> Just my 2 cents.  :-)
> 
> Rick
> 
>> On Sep 8, 2019, at 2:55 AM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> If you want a developer platform use Linux
> 
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Re: Checking the host OS

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

Oh...

1. Yes, one way is to parse the exe. (offset, offset, check for "PE\0\0", next 
two bytes)

2. Check for WoW64 redirection. (I'm not sure how, though.)

> On Aug 30, 2019, at 6:10 PM, Tom Glod via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> I think he is asking to find out if the BUILD is 32 or 64 bit.  In that
> case the platform() function really has to be updated. but there is
> porobably a way by reading the magic (file header) bytes of the
> standalone.  But can't be sure.
> 
> On Fri, Aug 30, 2019 at 5:43 PM Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
>> 1. Check for files and folders that are are required on one or do not
>> exist on one.
>> 
>> Program Files (x86)
>> SysWOW64
>> 
>> 2. systeminfo
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Aug 30, 2019, at 1:22 PM, Devin Asay via use-livecode <
>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi all,
>>> 
>>> I know we can get all manner of information about the host system our
>> stack or application is running on, including platform(), processor(), and
>> machine() but is there a way to check to see whether the host OS is 32 or
>> 64 bit? The platform function on Windows always returns Win32 regardless of
>> which version of Windows is running, and the processor reports x86_32 or
>> x86_64, depending on the host machine’s CPU.
>>> 
>>> Now that we can build both 32 and 64 bit applications for Windows, it’s
>> important to be able to tell whether the host OS is 32 or 64 bit. But I
>> can’t work out if these functions let us get that information. For
>> instance, on my Windows 10 64-bit system I get:
>>> 
>>> The platform: Win32
>>> The processor: x86_64
>>> The machine: x86_64
>>> 
>>> But I just had a user report that they were unable to run a new build of
>> one of my Windows applications, which I had built as 64 bit. I’m sending
>> them a 32-bit build, but I got to thinking, would there be a way to check
>> that from within LiveCode?
>>> 
>>> Any ideas?
>>> 
>>> Devin
>>> 
>>> Devin Asay
>>> Brigham Young University
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Re: Checking the host OS

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

1. Check for files and folders that are are required on one or do not exist on 
one. 

Program Files (x86)
SysWOW64

2. systeminfo



> On Aug 30, 2019, at 1:22 PM, Devin Asay via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> I know we can get all manner of information about the host system our stack 
> or application is running on, including platform(), processor(), and 
> machine() but is there a way to check to see whether the host OS is 32 or 64 
> bit? The platform function on Windows always returns Win32 regardless of 
> which version of Windows is running, and the processor reports x86_32 or 
> x86_64, depending on the host machine’s CPU.
> 
> Now that we can build both 32 and 64 bit applications for Windows, it’s 
> important to be able to tell whether the host OS is 32 or 64 bit. But I can’t 
> work out if these functions let us get that information. For instance, on my 
> Windows 10 64-bit system I get:
> 
> The platform: Win32
> The processor: x86_64
> The machine: x86_64
> 
> But I just had a user report that they were unable to run a new build of one 
> of my Windows applications, which I had built as 64 bit. I’m sending them a 
> 32-bit build, but I got to thinking, would there be a way to check that from 
> within LiveCode?
> 
> Any ideas?
> 
> Devin
> 
> Devin Asay
> Brigham Young University
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Re: OT: I just bought one of these

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

I got this for the lab bench (and Windows 10 testing).
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01AT394A4


> On Aug 29, 2019, at 10:06 AM, Mark Wieder via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> On 8/24/19 3:58 AM, Pi Digital via use-livecode wrote:
>> Wow! What an amazing form factor. It’s beautiful. The only down side is it’s 
>> only got 128MB of memory. That means it’s going to be flip-flopping on 
>> virtual memory all the time. So make sure you use a micro U3 SDXC >150Mbps 
>> card. I’ve seen a hack to mount it inside the case.
> 
> No worries. It can handle up to 2TB storage. I'm looking forward to getting 
> my hands on this thing.
> 
> -- 
> Mark Wieder
> ahsoftw...@gmail.com
> 
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Re: Unicode is not "everywhere"...

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

The added parameter approach looks very similar to an enhancement suggestion 
that has been around for a while. I'd mention the bug number, but I and bugs 
are not getting along at the moment.

Dar

> On Aug 27, 2019, at 5:54 AM, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> On 2019-08-22 20:53, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode wrote:
>> I just want it consistent and documented and able to return more than
>> just ASCII data
>> Currently, OSX shell returns UTF8 which may mean that it is returning
>> binary as it is returning 8-bit bytes where Unicode text has been
>> encoded as UTF8
> 
> The encoding returned by the terminal commands on macOS are UTF-8 for two 
> reasons:
> 
>  1) Various environment variables make it so (the 'system encoding')
> 
>  2) The terminal commands you are calling are written to respect the system 
> encoding and emit text encoded in that way - because they are actually 
> emitting text.
> 
> In contrast - 'cat' will just dump the contents of the file you specify byte 
> by byte - and files could contain data in any encoding.
> 
> There is absolutely no way to tell whether a command is 'ls' like and thus 
> emits text, or 'cat' like and thus emits binary.
> 
>> Windows returns CP1252 text, not binary and any Unicode results, which
>> DOS displays as Unicode just fine, can be returned without elaborate
>> work-arounds.
>> That by definition is a bug.
> 
> No - that isn't the definition of a bug - it is a difference of behavior 
> because you are dealing with platform-specific details.
> 
> The /U switch which Dar suggested (and appears to work for DIR and friends at 
> least) seems to be only applicable to 'internal commands' (according to 
> https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-server/administration/windows-commands/cmd)
>  so it isn't clear what, if anything, it would do to an arbitrary windows 
> terminal command.
> 
>> I would advocate that shell should return binary data. Text being
>> returned should be UTF8 encoded, that way people expecting ASCII do
>> nto need to o anything, they can just work with teh returned text.
>> People expecting Unicode can use textDecode to get the UTF8 converted
>> to LC native 16-bit Unicode, and people extcting binary can use the
>> byte chunk to process what comes back however they want.
> 
> The problem here is that it is up to the command being called what it outputs 
> - nothing else - so this isn't an achievable goal. You have to know what the 
> commands you are calling do, and how they work - and ensure you set the 
> environment up when calling them to return what you want.
> 
> The current situation with shell is irksome though - the internal 
> platform-dependent code returns binary data and does nothing to it but the 
> higher-level wrapper (i.e. the 'shell()' function implementation) will 
> basically leave it as binary data (converted to a native string - native 
> strings and binary strings are essentially interchangeable) and then will 
> perform EOL conversion on it on Windows and in server engines. This means it 
> kinda returns text but not really. Unfortunately this behavior has existed 
> for so long that it is 'just the way things are' so it isn't going to change.
> 
> Moving forward, a second parameter to shell() would probably be the best way 
> to resolve the above anomaly - empty would mean legacy behavior, binary would 
> mean do nothing at all.
> 
> It would be nice to be able to specify 'text' as well...
> 
> On UNIX-based systems it is clear what that should do (textDecode the output 
> based on the 'system' encoding, which is determined from the environment 
> variables of the calling process).
> 
> On Windows it is not clear to me what such a setting could do - /U certainly 
> doesn't sound like it helps arbitrary processes, but it might be there is 
> some way to change the codepage (analogous to the 'system encoding') of the 
> command being called so some attempt can be made to text decode and EOL 
> convert appropriately.
> 
> Warmest Regards,
> 
> Mark.
> 
> -- 
> Mark Waddingham ~ m...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
> LiveCode: Everyone can create apps
> 
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Re: another list test

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

I still don't see this:
http://quality.runrev.com 



> On Aug 27, 2019, at 4:22 AM, Heather Laine via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hooray, we are back. Thanks to Robin's dedicated work and excellent detective 
> abilities in figuring out the problem. 
> 
> Apologies to all for the outage of the lists, they didn't make it over 
> correctly to our new server and diagnosing the issue was tricky!
> 
> You can all now go about your business again.
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> Heather
> 
> Heather Laine
> Customer Services Manager
> LiveCode Ltd
> www.livecode.com
> 
> 
> 
>> On 27 Aug 2019, at 11:16, Matthias Rebbe via use-livecode 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> I can read you loud an clearly. ;)
>> 
>> 
>> Matthias Rebbe
>> 
>> free tools for Livecoders:
>> InstaMaker 
>> WinSignMaker Mac 
>> 
>>> Am 27.08.2019 um 12:12 schrieb Heather Laine via use-livecode 
>>> mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>>:
>>> 
>>> maybe this one arrives...
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Heather Laine
>>> Customer Services Manager
>>> LiveCode Ltd
>>> www.livecode.com 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
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Re: Unicode is not "everywhere"...

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

If shell returns text, does that mean shellCommand has to go away?

> On Aug 23, 2019, at 9:05 AM, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> On 8/23/2019 10:30 AM, Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode wrote:
>> SHELL()
>> 
>> Related:  https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=22334 
>> <https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=22334>
>>  
>> I was on the fence concerning whether shell() returns a text string or 
>> binary data. I have fallen to one side: BINARY.
> 
> I concur with the general idea of returning a 8-bit byte stream from Shell 
> (i.e. binary)
> 
>> Here is a summary of my position. Tomatoes are welcome.
>> 
>> The shell() function is on the edge of LiveCode. All I/O on the edge is 
>> binary and is either used that way or is text decoded. The text decoding can 
>> be part of the I/O operation or explicit. I see shell() this way. LiveCode 
>> has no control over what command line tools will do, or what the executable 
>> in shellCommand will do.
>> 
>> Some I/O operations have optional text decoding built-in. This can be added 
>> to shell(), but I don't think it is needed.
>> 
>> LEGACY: For my part, I have used shell() with an underlying assumption of 
>> ASCII. This assumption works OK with the ASCII subset of Latin-1, UTF-8 and 
>> most Windows codepages. I think most uses of shell() make this assumption 
>> plus the assumption that a text decoding is not needed. For this to be 
>> preserved, the text interpretation of a binary data should continue to be a 
>> sequence of single byte characters from an ASCII superset, and the default 
>> values for shellCommand should ensure that for each OS.
> 
> Well this is why I advocate that the encoding should be UTF-8 rather than 
> UTF-16. (1) this matches shell() on OSX which returns results from the shell 
> command UTF-8 encoded, or would you suggest changing OSX?; (2) UTF8 encoding 
> means that people expecting ASCII can just work with the returned results as 
> they always have. People expecting Unicode, will need to perform a 
> textDecode(shell(),"UTF-8") and if the results were just ASCII, they 
> they are still fine, since UTF8 decoding ASCII = ASCII.
> 
>> My recommendation:
>> shell(x) is strictly binary data
>> A textDecode example is provided in dict for shell.
>> shellCommand is reference in dict for shell.
>> The "cmd.exe /u" example is provided in dict for shellCommand
>> Correct the default for shellCommand in dictionary.
> 
> My recommendation:
> Fix Windows shell() to UTF8 encode results
> Add a textDecode example to the Dictionary entry for BOTH Windows and OSX 
> (and Linux, where I have no idea what Linux does)
> Correct the CMD.EXE vs Command.exe reference in the Dictionary as well
> 
>> Dar Scott
>> Mad Scientist
> 
> Paul Dupuis
> Mad Wizard
> :-)
> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Aug 22, 2019, at 9:37 AM, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I have filed two bug reports that are in LC905rc1 and go back to 7.0 where 
>>> LC functions that should deal with Unicode properly do not.
>>> 
>>> These are:
>>> https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=22213 -- The "detailed files" 
>>> function fails for any files with Unicode in the name, returning the 
>>> filename with %3F (?) instead of the Unicode characters properly URL 
>>> encoded (they should be UFT8 encoded and then URL encoded)
>>> and
>>> https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=22334 -- the shell command is 
>>> not Unicode aware in returning it's results. On OSX, the results are UTF8 
>>> encoded (discovered by accident) and so an extra step is needed to text 
>>> decode them, but on Windows it is a complete failure and any Unicode 
>>> results of the command line - SHOWN 100% correctly is executed in the 
>>> command line - are returned NATIVE encoded, causing all Unicode characters 
>>> to become question marks.
>>> 
>>> I have written work-around for both of these bugs that can be found in the 
>>> bug reports. My work-around for the "details files" is slow, due to 
>>> repeated calls to shell to fetch file properties one at a time.
>>> 
>>> If anyone else out there has run into these bugs in your own code and 
>>> developed a faster work-around for the "detailed files" and would care to 
>>> share, I would welcome a faster fix.
>>> 
>>> Of course, I'd welcome a fix from LiveCode, Ltd. to these bugs even more!
>>> 
>>&g

Re: Unicode is not "everywhere"...

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

SHELL()

Related:  https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=22334 
 
 

I was on the fence concerning whether shell() returns a text string or binary 
data. I have fallen to one side: BINARY.

Here is a summary of my position. Tomatoes are welcome.

The shell() function is on the edge of LiveCode. All I/O on the edge is binary 
and is either used that way or is text decoded. The text decoding can be part 
of the I/O operation or explicit. I see shell() this way. LiveCode has no 
control over what command line tools will do, or what the executable in 
shellCommand will do.

Some I/O operations have optional text decoding built-in. This can be added to 
shell(), but I don't think it is needed.

LEGACY: For my part, I have used shell() with an underlying assumption of 
ASCII. This assumption works OK with the ASCII subset of Latin-1, UTF-8 and 
most Windows codepages. I think most uses of shell() make this assumption plus 
the assumption that a text decoding is not needed. For this to be preserved, 
the text interpretation of a binary data should continue to be a sequence of 
single byte characters from an ASCII superset, and the default values for 
shellCommand should ensure that for each OS. 

My recommendation:
shell(x) is strictly binary data 
A textDecode example is provided in dict for shell.
shellCommand is reference in dict for shell.
The "cmd.exe /u" example is provided in dict for shellCommand
Correct the default for shellCommand in dictionary.

Dar Scott
Mad Scientist


> On Aug 22, 2019, at 9:37 AM, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> I have filed two bug reports that are in LC905rc1 and go back to 7.0 where LC 
> functions that should deal with Unicode properly do not.
> 
> These are:
> https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=22213 -- The "detailed files" 
> function fails for any files with Unicode in the name, returning the filename 
> with %3F (?) instead of the Unicode characters properly URL encoded (they 
> should be UFT8 encoded and then URL encoded)
> and
> https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=22334 -- the shell command is 
> not Unicode aware in returning it's results. On OSX, the results are UTF8 
> encoded (discovered by accident) and so an extra step is needed to text 
> decode them, but on Windows it is a complete failure and any Unicode results 
> of the command line - SHOWN 100% correctly is executed in the command line - 
> are returned NATIVE encoded, causing all Unicode characters to become 
> question marks.
> 
> I have written work-around for both of these bugs that can be found in the 
> bug reports. My work-around for the "details files" is slow, due to repeated 
> calls to shell to fetch file properties one at a time.
> 
> If anyone else out there has run into these bugs in your own code and 
> developed a faster work-around for the "detailed files" and would care to 
> share, I would welcome a faster fix.
> 
> Of course, I'd welcome a fix from LiveCode, Ltd. to these bugs even more!
> 
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Re: Unicode is not "everywhere"...

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

All encoding is binary, but not all binary is valid Unicode encoding. 

> On Aug 22, 2019, at 6:53 PM, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Currently, OSX shell returns UTF8 which may mean that it is returning binary 
> as it is returning 8-bit bytes where Unicode text has been encoded as UTF8

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Re: Unicode is not "everywhere"...

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

But that isn't the issue. Well, not what I thought the issue was.

If shell() only returns binary, as suggested by the mention of textDecode(), 
then binary data must always have an interpretation as a string to keep from 
breaking legacy code. Currently, that is interpreted as an 8-bit character of a 
character set of which ASCII is a subset. So, I'm OK with shell() being 
clarified to return binary data, which might be pure byte stream, some Unicode 
encoded data, or other character encoded data.  That is, unless one is using 
ASCII, then textDecode should be used, and even with ASCII, it may be used.

I'm also OK with shell() returning a string with no loss intermediate 
conversions.  I can use "open process" for binary data, if fixed.



> On Aug 22, 2019, at 2:17 PM, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> On 8/22/2019 4:08 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
>> Dar Scott wrote:
>> 
>> > If the result of shell() is run through textDecode, should then
>> > shell() return binary data? This puts it outside the scope of
>> > "everywhere". I like the idea, as long as simple ASCII characters
>> > work transparently.
>> 
>> Isn't that the goal of UTF-8, which is why so many programming languages 
>> uses it as the default?
>> 
> 
> Richard is correct. UTF8 encoding does not change readability of ASCII 
> characters.
> Encoding the results from shell as UTF8 does mean that ASCII characters can 
> be used in a return values without text decoding. shell() under OSX, at least 
> tested under LC905rc1, actually returns UTF8 and probably no one using shell 
> on OSX has noticed if you've just been working with ASCII characters as the 
> output of your shell comamnd.
> 
> 
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Re: Unicode is not "everywhere"...

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

You can't have it both ways.

Either shell() only characters of the broadest character set, Unicode, or it 
returns binary. If it returns characters, then it will not work for binary 
responses; that will have to be documented as excluded.

If Unicode is returned then textDecode is not needed and even should not be 
used.



> On Aug 22, 2019, at 2:08 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Dar Scott wrote:
> 
> > If the result of shell() is run through textDecode, should then
> > shell() return binary data? This puts it outside the scope of
> > "everywhere". I like the idea, as long as simple ASCII characters
> > work transparently.
> 
> Isn't that the goal of UTF-8, which is why so many programming languages uses 
> it as the default?
> 
> -- 
> Richard Gaskin
> Fourth World Systems
> Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
> 
> ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com
> 
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Re: Unicode is not "everywhere"...

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

If the result of shell() is run through textDecode, should then shell() return 
binary data? This puts it outside the scope of "everywhere". I like the idea, 
as long as simple ASCII characters work transparently. 

Currently, "is strictly" says it is a string, not a binary string.

As far as the question, perhaps a rhetorical question, there are some binary 
streams that are not UTF-16 or UTF-8. 

> On Aug 22, 2019, at 1:24 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Dar Scott wrote:
> 
> > Concerning 22335...
> >
> > 1. I wonder if anyone uses shell() to return binary values.
> 
> In the modern Unicode world, what is "text" and what is "binary"?
> 
> I believe MacOS' HFS+ and Win's NFS use UTF-16 natively, Linux  EXT4 uses 
> UTF-8.
> 
> It might seem simple to have a habit of running file names through 
> textDecode, but since fopen uses ANSI I'm not sure what the implications are.
> 
> -- 
> Richard Gaskin
> Fourth World Systems
> Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
> 
> ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com
> 
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Re: Unicode is not "everywhere"...

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

Concerning 22335...

1. I wonder if anyone uses shell() to return binary values.

2. I wonder about whether using the shellCommand property would help.

> On Aug 22, 2019, at 9:37 AM, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> I have filed two bug reports that are in LC905rc1 and go back to 7.0 where LC 
> functions that should deal with Unicode properly do not.
> 
> These are:
> https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=22213 -- The "detailed files" 
> function fails for any files with Unicode in the name, returning the filename 
> with %3F (?) instead of the Unicode characters properly URL encoded (they 
> should be UFT8 encoded and then URL encoded)
> and
> https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=22334 -- the shell command is 
> not Unicode aware in returning it's results. On OSX, the results are UTF8 
> encoded (discovered by accident) and so an extra step is needed to text 
> decode them, but on Windows it is a complete failure and any Unicode results 
> of the command line - SHOWN 100% correctly is executed in the command line - 
> are returned NATIVE encoded, causing all Unicode characters to become 
> question marks.
> 
> I have written work-around for both of these bugs that can be found in the 
> bug reports. My work-around for the "details files" is slow, due to repeated 
> calls to shell to fetch file properties one at a time.
> 
> If anyone else out there has run into these bugs in your own code and 
> developed a faster work-around for the "detailed files" and would care to 
> share, I would welcome a faster fix.
> 
> Of course, I'd welcome a fix from LiveCode, Ltd. to these bugs even more!
> 
> ___
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> preferences:
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Re: set the textColor

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

Have you had a dalliance with a floozy programming language that allows you to 
do such things?

> On Aug 17, 2019, at 3:51 PM, Richmond via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> A long time since I studied Logic. :-[
> 
> Richmond.
> 
> On 17.08.19 23:00, Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode wrote:
>> And what would you expect the value of the parenthetical expression to be?
>> 
>>> On Aug 17, 2019, at 1:42 PM, Richmond via use-livecode 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> setthetextColorof(line XOUNT offld "fPROC") to"red"
>>> 
>>> Disnae wark . . .
>>> 
>>> Erm?
>>> 
>>> Richmond.
>>> 
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Re: set the textColor

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

And what would you expect the value of the parenthetical expression to be?

> On Aug 17, 2019, at 1:42 PM, Richmond via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> setthetextColorof(line XOUNT offld "fPROC") to"red"
> 
> Disnae wark . . .
> 
> Erm?
> 
> Richmond.
> 
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Re: Is this broken (set the cursor to watch)

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

This works for me:

on mouseUp pButtonNumber
   set cursor to watch   
   wait 2 seconds
end mouseUp

> On Aug 14, 2019, at 2:14 AM, Rolf Kocherhans via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Is it just me, or are all "set the cursor to xx“ broken ?
> 
> -> I use LC 9.5 on macOS
> 
> Regards
> Rolf
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Re: is it possible to readfromfile line x to y

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

Oh, and that repeat will take a very long time. Fixing that might be better 
than the other solution.

Use repeat for each line this_line of unicode_file_to_parse

and don't forget to clear unicode_file_to_parse after the repeat if it is not 
handler local

> On Aug 10, 2019, at 11:26 AM, Tom Glod via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi Dar, thanks for the tips.  However I am loading the file locally.
> 
> The file is 48mb, so it loads fine and fits fine.
> 
> I am attempting to parse just 1 line at a time, but it still doesn't work.
> 
> This is my code and even this freezes it.
> 
> -
> 
> local number_of_lines
> local this_line
> global TempArray
> 
> put the number of lines in unicode_file_to_parse into number_of_lines
> 
> repeat with x = 1 to number_of_lines
> 
> put line x of unicode_file_to_parse into this_line
> 
> put this_line into TempArray[x]
> 
> end repeat
> 
> 
> 
> On Sat, Aug 10, 2019 at 1:16 PM Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
>> Remember to unload after load and parsing (if you use load).
>> 
>> Also, look for variables you are leaving full of big things.
>> 
>> If that doesn't help enough, look at the httpHeaders property. Use the
>> Range request header. Unfortunately, that might be limited to byte as a
>> unit. If so, you might also want to add a Accept-Charset header to limit
>> the charset to utf-16 so you don't split a character in a read.
>> 
>> A quick scripting but slow running interim alternative might be to URL the
>> file, get the lines you want, and then empty the variable containing the
>> file.
>> 
>>> On Aug 10, 2019, at 9:18 AM, Tom Glod via use-livecode <
>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I am trying to parse this massive html page of unicode characters.
>>> 
>>> https://unicode.org/emoji/charts/full-emoji-list.html
>>> 
>>> and livecode is choking up when I read in the whole file and try to parse
>>> each line using a loop.  I get a hard crash in the debugger and a endless
>>> loop when debugger is off.
>>> 
>>> I will report this afterwards.
>>> 
>>> But as a workaround I'd like to
>>> 
>>> "read from file line 1 to 5 of file"
>>> 
>>> The examples are just not helping me to get the right syntax.  Can
>> someone
>>> help me?
>>> 
>>> I'm parsing lines.
>>> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> 
>>> Tom
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Re: is it possible to readfromfile line x to y

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

Sorry about that. The https reference threw me off.

Use open file, read file with range (repeatedly), and then close file.

open file myBigFile for UTF-8 text read
read from file myBigFile at myOffset for myNumLines lines
close...

Adjust myOffset with the length of what was read each time.





> On Aug 10, 2019, at 11:26 AM, Tom Glod via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi Dar, thanks for the tips.  However I am loading the file locally.
> 
> The file is 48mb, so it loads fine and fits fine.
> 
> I am attempting to parse just 1 line at a time, but it still doesn't work.
> 
> This is my code and even this freezes it.
> 
> -
> 
> local number_of_lines
> local this_line
> global TempArray
> 
> put the number of lines in unicode_file_to_parse into number_of_lines
> 
> repeat with x = 1 to number_of_lines
> 
> put line x of unicode_file_to_parse into this_line
> 
> put this_line into TempArray[x]
> 
> end repeat
> 
> 
> 
> On Sat, Aug 10, 2019 at 1:16 PM Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
>> Remember to unload after load and parsing (if you use load).
>> 
>> Also, look for variables you are leaving full of big things.
>> 
>> If that doesn't help enough, look at the httpHeaders property. Use the
>> Range request header. Unfortunately, that might be limited to byte as a
>> unit. If so, you might also want to add a Accept-Charset header to limit
>> the charset to utf-16 so you don't split a character in a read.
>> 
>> A quick scripting but slow running interim alternative might be to URL the
>> file, get the lines you want, and then empty the variable containing the
>> file.
>> 
>>> On Aug 10, 2019, at 9:18 AM, Tom Glod via use-livecode <
>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I am trying to parse this massive html page of unicode characters.
>>> 
>>> https://unicode.org/emoji/charts/full-emoji-list.html
>>> 
>>> and livecode is choking up when I read in the whole file and try to parse
>>> each line using a loop.  I get a hard crash in the debugger and a endless
>>> loop when debugger is off.
>>> 
>>> I will report this afterwards.
>>> 
>>> But as a workaround I'd like to
>>> 
>>> "read from file line 1 to 5 of file"
>>> 
>>> The examples are just not helping me to get the right syntax.  Can
>> someone
>>> help me?
>>> 
>>> I'm parsing lines.
>>> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> 
>>> Tom
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>> subscription preferences:
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Re: is it possible to readfromfile line x to y

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

Remember to unload after load and parsing (if you use load).

Also, look for variables you are leaving full of big things.

If that doesn't help enough, look at the httpHeaders property. Use the Range 
request header. Unfortunately, that might be limited to byte as a unit. If so, 
you might also want to add a Accept-Charset header to limit the charset to 
utf-16 so you don't split a character in a read.

A quick scripting but slow running interim alternative might be to URL the 
file, get the lines you want, and then empty the variable containing the file.

> On Aug 10, 2019, at 9:18 AM, Tom Glod via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> I am trying to parse this massive html page of unicode characters.
> 
> https://unicode.org/emoji/charts/full-emoji-list.html
> 
> and livecode is choking up when I read in the whole file and try to parse
> each line using a loop.  I get a hard crash in the debugger and a endless
> loop when debugger is off.
> 
> I will report this afterwards.
> 
> But as a workaround I'd like to
> 
> "read from file line 1 to 5 of file"
> 
> The examples are just not helping me to get the right syntax.  Can someone
> help me?
> 
> I'm parsing lines.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Tom
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Re: Any recommendation which GitHub client to use for Livecode contributions?

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

I have not used it yet, but I have been considering Sourcetree because I work 
best with visualization and clear workflow opportunities. 

> On Aug 8, 2019, at 7:57 AM, Brian Milby via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> I use SourceTree.  It also has a Windows version.
> www.sourcetreeapp.com
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> Brian
> On Aug 8, 2019, 9:52 AM -0400, Matthias Rebbe via use-livecode 
> , wrote:
>> Hi,
>> 
>> there are currently 25 GitHub Gui Clients for Mac OS listed at 
>> https://git-scm.com/download/gui/mac 
>> 
>> Are there any recommendations which one should be used for Mac for LC 
>> contributions?
>> 
>> 
>> Regards,
>> 
>> Matthias
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Matthias Rebbe
>> 
>> free tools for Livecoders:
>> InstaMaker 
>> WinSignMaker Mac 
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Re: DragDrop for Datagrids

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

No, way! You can't pin this on me! I've been framed!! I didn't do it.

Well, not in recent times. Somebody else deserves the applause.

> On Aug 6, 2019, at 8:59 AM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi all. 
> 
> Since being enlightened by Dar (I think it was) about setting the dragAction 
> to "copy", I have entered into a new world of possibilities! One of them is 
> drag and drop for datagrids. I'm sure that for those well versed in both 
> datagrids and dragDrop, this will seem elementary, but for those who are not: 
> 
> on dragEnter
>   -- this code will select datagrid records as you drag over them! 
>   set the dragAction to "Copy"
>   put the mouseControl into tControlID
>   if tControlID is empty then exit dragEnter
>   put the dgDataControl of tControlID into tDataControl
> 
>   -- trap for no control
>   try
>  put the dgIndex of tDataControl into tIndex
>   catch tError
>  exit dragEnter
>   end try
> 
>   set the dgHilitedIndex of me to tIndex
> end dragEnter
> 
> on dragDrop
>   put the mouseControl into tControlID
>   if tControlID is empty then exit dragDrop
>   put the dgDataControl of tControlID into tDataControl
> 
>   -- trap for no control
>   try
>  put the dgIndex of tDataControl into tIndex
>   catch tError
>  exit dragDrop
>   end try
> 
>   -- put your custom stuff here
> 
>   --
> end dragDrop
> 
> 
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Re: Help with an algorithm...

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

I know this does not attend to the question, but my feelings are like this: if 
one has control, go back and use arrays from the start.

Now, to your comments on robustness in parsing the files. I suppose any 
whitespace at the start of a line could be considered a child.  Also, it is an 
error if the first line is a child.

> On Aug 5, 2019, at 3:59 PM, dunbarxx via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hmmm. I had mentioned earlier:
> 
> "You cannot just find matching lines between the two lists, because some
> children 
> AND some parents may be present in both...
> 
> The discussion has focused on array lore, and that is fine, but are we all
> in agreement that the main task is to isolate the parents, regardless of
> whether the names of those parents might be duplicated?  I mention this
> because everything depends on the reliability of those spaces. The parsing
> of parent "groups", in one way or another, is essential.
> 
> Craig
> 
> 
> 
> --
> Sent from: 
> http://runtime-revolution.278305.n4.nabble.com/Revolution-User-f278306.html
> 
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Re: Help with an algorithm...

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

My mistake. I was thinking arrays.

> On Aug 5, 2019, at 3:34 PM, Mark Wieder via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> On 8/5/19 2:24 PM, Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode wrote:
>> Yikes! I wasn't aware of duplicate keys being a problem. How does that 
>> happen?
> 
> Marx
> Groucho
> Chico
> etc.
> Marx
> Karl
> etc.
> 
> -- 
> Mark Wieder
> ahsoftw...@gmail.com
> 
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Re: Help with an algorithm...

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

Yikes! I wasn't aware of duplicate keys being a problem. How does that happen?

> On Aug 5, 2019, at 2:28 PM, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> I'm a great fan of, and user of, arrays - but we always need to be careful of 
> losing data with duplicated keys.
> 
> You haven't said that the parent names in LISTNEW are guaranteed to be 
> unique. This simple code assumes they are - if they're not, it's easy to add 
> a check ...  (And it also assumes the inputs are properly formatted!!)
> 
> (inputs are in fields "FNew" and "FOld", output in field "FOut")
> 
> on mouseUp
>local tOld, tNew, tOut
>local tA
>local tLastParent
> 
>put the text of fld "FNew" into tNew
>repeat for each line L in tNew  -- convert to array
>   if L begins with space then -- a child
>  put L  after tA[tLastParent]
>   else
>  put L into tLastParent
>   end if
>end repeat
> 
>put the text of fld "FOld" into tOld
>put empty into tLastParent
>repeat for each line L in tOld
>   if L begins with space then -- a child
>  if (tLastParent is not empty) \
> AND (L is not among the lines of tA[tLastParent]) then
> put L  after tA[tLastParent]
>  end if
>   else
>  if L is among the keys of tA then -- a Parent we need to deal with
> put L into tLastParent
>  else
> put empty into tLastParent
>  end if
>   end if
>end repeat
> 
>-- and then collect the expanded outptu
>local tKeys
>put the keys of tA into tKeys
>sort lines of tKeys
>repeat for each line K in tKeys
>   put K  & tA[K] after tOut
>end repeat
>put tOut into fld "fOut"
> end mouseUp
> 
> Alex.
> 
> 
> On 05/08/2019 16:53, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode wrote:
>> Today is not my coding day. I have a problem I should be able to design a 
>> solution for an am struggling. Clearly I am missing "something"
>> 
>> I have 2 lists (LISTNEW and LISTOLD) of the following format:
>> 
>> ParentA
>> Child 1
>> Child 2
>> etc.
>> ParentB
>> Child 1
>> etc.
>> etc.
>> 
>> The parents are in alphabetical sorted order, the children may not be in 
>> sorted order
>> 
>> I need to hunt through LISTOLD comparing the LISTOLD Parents to the LISTNEW 
>> Parents
>>   FOR any LISTOLD Parent present in LISTNEW, check the Children of the 
>> matching Parents and add any Child for the LISTOLD Parent that is not 
>> already under its matching LISTNEW Parent
>>   FOR any LISTOLD Parent NOT in LISTNEW, I can ignore the Parent and its 
>> Children
>> 
>> I can not seem to write an approach to solve this today. Does any body have 
>> some code so solve this they may be willing to share?
>> 
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Re: Help with an algorithm...

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

I'm pretty sure I goofed somewhere, but maybe something like this?

intersect ARRAYNEW with ARRAYOLD into temp
union temp with ARRAYNEW recursively


> On Aug 5, 2019, at 9:53 AM, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Today is not my coding day. I have a problem I should be able to design a 
> solution for an am struggling. Clearly I am missing "something"
> 
> I have 2 lists (LISTNEW and LISTOLD) of the following format:
> 
> ParentA
> Child 1
> Child 2
> etc.
> ParentB
> Child 1
> etc.
> etc.
> 
> The parents are in alphabetical sorted order, the children may not be in 
> sorted order
> 
> I need to hunt through LISTOLD comparing the LISTOLD Parents to the LISTNEW 
> Parents
>   FOR any LISTOLD Parent present in LISTNEW, check the Children of the 
> matching Parents and add any Child for the LISTOLD Parent that is not already 
> under its matching LISTNEW Parent
>   FOR any LISTOLD Parent NOT in LISTNEW, I can ignore the Parent and its 
> Children
> 
> I can not seem to write an approach to solve this today. Does any body have 
> some code so solve this they may be willing to share?
> 
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use-list formatting (was Re: Help with an algorithm...)

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

I agree that the lack of formatting makes it hard to communicate. I would favor 
changing the list settings to allow for it. I don't think we have a spam 
problem that would discourage that.

And to help support this, LC copy should include types easily pasted into mail 
clients. 

> On Aug 5, 2019, at 11:49 AM, dunbarxx via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> I really do not like the use-list. It is difficult to format one's answers.

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Re: Help with an algorithm...

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

I'd tend to look for ways to do this with functions that work on whole 
collections and avoid loops. 

If that is not found, or is hard to work with, I'd change the lists to be 
arrays.

Each array is is keyed by parents. Each parent is an array of children. 
Children can be represented as an arrayed indexed by children. The elements of 
those might be ignored or have data.  

Loop on keys in LISTNEW...

> On Aug 5, 2019, at 9:53 AM, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Today is not my coding day. I have a problem I should be able to design a 
> solution for an am struggling. Clearly I am missing "something"
> 
> I have 2 lists (LISTNEW and LISTOLD) of the following format:
> 
> ParentA
> Child 1
> Child 2
> etc.
> ParentB
> Child 1
> etc.
> etc.
> 
> The parents are in alphabetical sorted order, the children may not be in 
> sorted order
> 
> I need to hunt through LISTOLD comparing the LISTOLD Parents to the LISTNEW 
> Parents
>   FOR any LISTOLD Parent present in LISTNEW, check the Children of the 
> matching Parents and add any Child for the LISTOLD Parent that is not already 
> under its matching LISTNEW Parent
>   FOR any LISTOLD Parent NOT in LISTNEW, I can ignore the Parent and its 
> Children
> 
> I can not seem to write an approach to solve this today. Does any body have 
> some code so solve this they may be willing to share?
> 
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Re: Making "read from file" less blocky.

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

OK. Skip "cat" for now.  Everything else should work on Windows.


To load a file in one swoop...
put URL("binfile:" & ThisFile) into IntoThisVariable

And if you saved the file with compress, then decompress it.


To load portions of a file just-in-time...
Use "at" and "for" in "read from"

That wont help if you immediately want to find the average or something. But it 
might help if you want to read a header and first record, then move to another 
record as needed.


I am awful at explaining things so twist my arm until I do it right.


> On Aug 4, 2019, at 5:28 PM, Tom Glod via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> heheh its always a fun exercise.
> 
> Dar, these are linux based solutions right? using windows here at the
> moment, so I can't test, but when I test and optimize my application for
> linux i will try these.
> 
> On Sun, Aug 4, 2019 at 4:43 PM dsc--- via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
>> Even more "really out there" of the "really out there".
>> 
>> Don't read in the file.
>> 
>> Access portions JIT, that is, lazily.
>> 
>> Create a function that pulls in segments of the file. Kinda like this:
>> 
>>function segmentOfFile pStartIndex, pEndIndex, pThisFile
>> 
>> Or this:
>> 
>>function segmentOfCurrentFile pStartIndex, pEndIndex
>> 
>> Dar
>> 
>>> On Aug 4, 2019, at 1:22 PM, dsc--- via use-livecode <
>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> More "really out there".
>>> 
>>> I like the idea of trying to speed up an upfront foreground load.
>> Something simple like this:
>>> 
>>> put blah-plah into IntoThisVariable.
>>> 
>>> where blah-blah is nana-nana or decompress( nana-nana )
>>> where nana-nana is one of these:
>>>  URL ("binfile:" & ThisFile)
>>>  shell("cat " & ThisFile)
>>> 
>>> Function decompress() makes two RAM hits and requires control over the
>> loaded files.
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Aug 4, 2019, at 12:47 PM, Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode <
>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> I love "really out there".  I wanna play.
>>>> 
>>>> At the start of any solution, try this. It might speed up any method
>> but would take some time at the start.
>>>> 
>>>> get shell( "cat " & ThisFile & " > dev/null" )
>>>> 
>>>> I think that is likely to pre-load the system file buffers for you.
>>>> 
>>>> If one is feeling adventurous, one can try open process (cat) to avoid
>> the wait; it will probably move through the file faster than the script and
>> sectors will already be loaded when you ask for them.
>>>> 
>>>> Dar
>>>> 
>>>>> On Aug 4, 2019, at 7:59 AM, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode <
>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> OK, here's a "really out there" suggestion 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 1. Run a local web server  to serve files (locally only).
>>>>> 
>>>>>   Can be done various ways, including (easily) via LC and the httpd
>> library,
>>>>> 
>>>>>  (build that server as a standalone and have it running - started
>> from your app if need be...)
>>>>> 
>>>>> 2. in your stack, just do
>>>>> 
>>>>> load url ("http://localhost:8080/myfilename;) with message
>> "mycallback"
>>>>> 
>>>>> and handle the file once it has been read in the "mycallback" handler
>>>>> 
>>>>> -- Alex.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 04/08/2019 01:56, Tom Glod via use-livecode wrote:
>>>>>> Hey folks,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I'm having trouble finding a combination of settings that allows my
>> file
>>>>>> loading  to seem to happen in the background.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> repeat while read_result is not "eof"
>>>>>>   read from file ThisFile for (1024 * 1000) bytes
>>>>>>   put the result into read_result
>>>>>>   put it after IntoThisVariable
>>>>>>   add length(it) to amount_read
>>>>>>   TSTProgress amount_read,Expect

Re: [OT] Weighted distribution of Numbers

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

Oh, good. I was worrying that you might have a bad customer. 

> On Aug 4, 2019, at 3:05 PM, Ralph DiMola via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> I'm not plotting this but using it for searching.
> 
> I'm not really lying. I'm trying to come up with the raw numbers from many
> individual components. It's like "Gone with the Wind" and "Apocalypse Now"
> both getting 100 on Rotten Tomatoes. But if you looked under the hood and
> added up components such as sound, costumes, artwork, casting... and applied
> a weight to each then "Apocalypse Now" might get a raw rating of 800 and
> "Gone with the Wind" get a 790. But they are both so close to the top I
> would want them to both get 100. I can do this via the "human factor" by
> manually adjusting some of the results(mostly at the top) but I would like
> to somewhat automate it so when the components change I will do a
> re-calculation run and say the top number goes up by 25 all the manual
> adjustments go out the window. I want this to be somewhat automated.
> 
> Ralph DiMola
> IT Director
> Evergreen Information Services
> rdim...@evergreeninfo.net
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com] On Behalf
> Of Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode
> Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2019 4:33 PM
> To: How to use LiveCode
> Cc: Dar Scott Consulting
> Subject: Re: [OT] Weighted distribution of Numbers
> 
> I was thinking the same, but was to afraid to say it. Yes, the actual name
> is "lying".
> 
> However, there might be an honest attempt to display crowded dots or icons.
> 
>> On Aug 4, 2019, at 2:19 PM, hh via use-livecode
>  wrote:
>> 
>>> Ralph D. wrote:
>>> I'm sure there's an actual name for doing this in the statistician's 
>>> world but I don't know what it is.
>> 
>> This has nothing to do with "statistics".
>> This is simply "try to lie by data cheating".
>> 
>> 
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Re: [OT] Weighted distribution of Numbers

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

I was thinking the same, but was to afraid to say it. Yes, the actual name is 
"lying".

However, there might be an honest attempt to display crowded dots or icons.

> On Aug 4, 2019, at 2:19 PM, hh via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
>> Ralph D. wrote:
>> I'm sure there's an actual name for doing this in the statistician's
>> world but I don't know what it is.
> 
> This has nothing to do with "statistics".
> This is simply "try to lie by data cheating".
> 
> 
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Re: [OT] Weighted distribution of Numbers

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

Perhaps what you want is histogram smoothing or histogram curve fitting.

Is this for a dot or icon display? Or for a plotted curve?

> On Aug 4, 2019, at 1:38 PM, Ralph DiMola via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Dar,
> 
> Thanks for looking at this...
> 
> These numbers are quality ratings. The raw numbers range from 0 to a max of
> 800 or so. The customer wants to see a rating from 0-100 so I normalize them
> into a range of 0 to 100 where the raw 0 is 0 and the raw 800 is 100. This
> works perfectly. When looking at the resulting 0-100 ratings is where they
> see the distribution anomalies. They would like to see the top numbers(say
> from 94 to 100) to go to 100 and then the original 93 to be 99 and the
> original 90 to be 97 or so. And also smooth out any gaps in the distribution
> so there for example if there are almost no numbers in the 40s to bump up
> the 30s a little and bump down the 50s a little. I'm sure there's an actual
> name for doing this in the statistician's world but I don't know what it is.
> 
> Ralph DiMola
> IT Director
> Evergreen Information Services
> rdim...@evergreeninfo.net
> Phone: 518-636-3998 Ex:11
> Cell: 518-796-9332
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com] On Behalf
> Of Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode
> Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2019 3:03 PM
> To: How to use LiveCode
> Cc: Dar Scott Consulting
> Subject: Re: [OT] Weighted distribution of Numbers
> 
> Just to clarify... Is this right?
> 
> The max of the raw numbers maps to 100.
> The min of the raw numbers maps to 0. (Or is it 0 maps to 0?) The middle
> number maps to something like 70. (Or is it half of the max maps to 70?) The
> mapping is smooth.
> 
> Where 70 might be something else.
> 
>> On Aug 4, 2019, at 12:49 PM, Ralph DiMola via use-livecode
>  wrote:
>> 
>> I have a set of raw numbers(6,000 of them from 0 to 800 or so). It was 
>> easy to normalize these numbers from 0 to 100. But as I look at the 
>> results I see that there is one at to top(100) and a few in the 90s 
>> and many more in the 70s and 80s. I need to make these numbers more 
>> evenly distributed and weighted towards the top(so the top few are 
>> 100) based on the current distribution of the raw numbers. I'm not a 
>> math whiz and not afraid to admit that going beyond linier equations 
>> is way over my head. From some searches I see the some sort of 
>> nonlinear regression is in order(I think)? Or a apply a log (like an 
>> audio log taper of a potentiometer)? I don't know... Can anyone point me
> in the in the right direction?
>> 
>> Thanks!
>> 
>> Ralph DiMola
>> IT Director
>> Evergreen Information Services
>> rdim...@evergreeninfo.net
>> 
>> 
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Re: [OT] Weighted distribution of Numbers

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

Just to clarify... Is this right?

The max of the raw numbers maps to 100.
The min of the raw numbers maps to 0. (Or is it 0 maps to 0?)
The middle number maps to something like 70. (Or is it half of the max maps to 
70?)
The mapping is smooth.

Where 70 might be something else.

> On Aug 4, 2019, at 12:49 PM, Ralph DiMola via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> I have a set of raw numbers(6,000 of them from 0 to 800 or so). It was easy
> to normalize these numbers from 0 to 100. But as I look at the results I see
> that there is one at to top(100) and a few in the 90s and many more in the
> 70s and 80s. I need to make these numbers more evenly distributed and
> weighted towards the top(so the top few are 100) based on the current
> distribution of the raw numbers. I'm not a math whiz and not afraid to admit
> that going beyond linier equations is way over my head. From some searches I
> see the some sort of nonlinear regression is in order(I think)? Or a apply a
> log (like an audio log taper of a potentiometer)? I don't know... Can anyone
> point me in the in the right direction?
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Ralph DiMola
> IT Director
> Evergreen Information Services
> rdim...@evergreeninfo.net
> 
> 
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Re: Making "read from file" less blocky.

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

I love "really out there".  I wanna play.

At the start of any solution, try this. It might speed up any method but would 
take some time at the start.

get shell( "cat " & ThisFile & " > dev/null" )

I think that is likely to pre-load the system file buffers for you. 

If one is feeling adventurous, one can try open process (cat) to avoid the 
wait; it will probably move through the file faster than the script and sectors 
will already be loaded when you ask for them.

Dar

> On Aug 4, 2019, at 7:59 AM, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> OK, here's a "really out there" suggestion 
> 
> 1. Run a local web server  to serve files (locally only).
> 
>  Can be done various ways, including (easily) via LC and the httpd 
> library,
> 
> (build that server as a standalone and have it running - started from 
> your app if need be...)
> 
> 2. in your stack, just do
> 
>   load url ("http://localhost:8080/myfilename;) with message "mycallback"
> 
> and handle the file once it has been read in the "mycallback" handler
> 
> -- Alex.
> 
> 
> On 04/08/2019 01:56, Tom Glod via use-livecode wrote:
>> Hey folks,
>> 
>> I'm having trouble finding a combination of settings that allows my file
>> loading  to seem to happen in the background.
>> 
>>   repeat while read_result is not "eof"
>>  read from file ThisFile for (1024 * 1000) bytes
>>  put the result into read_result
>>  put it after IntoThisVariable
>>  add length(it) to amount_read
>>  TSTProgress amount_read,ExpectedSize,"%","Loading File ..."
>> (Progress Indicator Handler)
>>  wait 10 milliseconds with messages
>>   end repeat
>> 
>> no matter what I try, its still sluggish, and it seems like messages are
>> still accumilating instead of being processed by the engine.
>> 
>> Am I missing something?  Normally waiting with messages sufficiently frees
>> the engine to allow the UI to remain responsive.
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> 
>> Tom
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Re: Making "read from file" less blocky.

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

Alas, only read from socket allows a message to be sent upon completion. The 
step siblings read from file, read from process and read from driver do not.

Here are a few things you might do:

1. Try making the file loading very fast and don't do it in the background. 
Change the cursor if need be.  Try using URL with file: or binfile:, maybe that 
is fast.

2. Use a "send loop" to read in portions and update a progress bar. You can get 
help here on how to do that.

3. Process the file lazily and bring in parts as needed.

4. Figure out how to make the file read through networking. Somehow. Maybe.


> On Aug 3, 2019, at 6:56 PM, Tom Glod via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hey folks,
> 
> I'm having trouble finding a combination of settings that allows my file
> loading  to seem to happen in the background.
> 
>  repeat while read_result is not "eof"
> read from file ThisFile for (1024 * 1000) bytes
> put the result into read_result
> put it after IntoThisVariable
> add length(it) to amount_read
> TSTProgress amount_read,ExpectedSize,"%","Loading File ..."
> (Progress Indicator Handler)
> wait 10 milliseconds with messages
>  end repeat
> 
> no matter what I try, its still sluggish, and it seems like messages are
> still accumilating instead of being processed by the engine.
> 
> Am I missing something?  Normally waiting with messages sufficiently frees
> the engine to allow the UI to remain responsive.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Tom
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Re: Challenge: who can background this shell command?

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

And an especially nice thing (I'm dreaming) would be callbacks for process and 
device I/O, maybe even some sort of unification with sockets. That would remove 
the need for polling in a send loop.



> On Aug 2, 2019, at 8:40 AM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> This is a fascinating thread. When all this is sussed out, a nice thing to 
> have is a function that takes arguements for all the heretofore literals, and 
> does the deed. It can be added to the master library. 
> 
> Bob S
> 
> 
>> On Aug 2, 2019, at 07:13 , Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> I'm assuming you can send the ^c down the process connection. That is, write 
>> to the opened process. Wait a bit after that or look at the response, and 
>> then shut down the polling send-loop and then close the connection if it is 
>> not already closed, 
>> 
>> It might be that simply closing the connection to the process will cause it 
>> to shutdown gracefully. However, it would be nice to see the graceful 
>> shutdown.
>> 
>> I'd collect the reads and put them in a field on a stack just for monitoring 
>> the output. You can make it development only or you can make it part of your 
>> thing. This will allow you to see what is going on. It also allows you to 
>> see why Dar's idea of sending ^c doesn't work.
> 
> 
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Re: Challenge: who can background this shell command?

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

I'm assuming you can send the ^c down the process connection. That is, write to 
the opened process. Wait a bit after that or look at the response, and then 
shut down the polling send-loop and then close the connection if it is not 
already closed, 

It might be that simply closing the connection to the process will cause it to 
shutdown gracefully. However, it would be nice to see the graceful shutdown.

I'd collect the reads and put them in a field on a stack just for monitoring 
the output. You can make it development only or you can make it part of your 
thing. This will allow you to see what is going on. It also allows you to see 
why Dar's idea of sending ^c doesn't work.

> On Aug 2, 2019, at 7:13 AM, David Bovill via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Yes - ^c to shut down... but why for update?
> 
> On Thu, 1 Aug 2019 at 19:27, Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
>> I am not familiar with hugo. Do you type a ^c to shut down hugo server? In
>> that case you might want to consider open for update.
>> 
>>> On Aug 1, 2019, at 12:19 PM, David Bovill via use-livecode <
>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> OK - I managed to get it to work with:
>>> 
>>>  - open process "/usr/local/bin/hugo server" for read
>>> 
>>> which I did not think would work due to the two word shell command.
>>> 
>>> Timing was an issue - so I had to use the method found here (thanks
>> Mark) -
>>> 
>> https://github.com/livecode/livecode/blob/develop/builder/installer_utilities.livecodescript
>>> -
>>> which uses a send in 20 milliseconds when there is a timeout. basically
>> it
>>> is complex timing logic, but more direct and probably robust than using a
>>> bunch of shell commands we put into the background. Still we have tow
>>> methods that work - restores my faith in the flexibility of Livecode!
>>> 
>>> On Thu, 1 Aug 2019 at 17:15, dsc--- via use-livecode <
>>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> I feel foolish. From the dictionary:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Note: On OS X systems, you can use the open process command to start up
>> an
>>>> application, but not a Unix process. To work with a Unix process, use
>> the
>>>> shell func instead.
>>>> 
>>>> When I saw this in the Dictionary, I thought, "Oh, when did this break?"
>>>> 
>>>> I should have thought, "Oh, yeah?"
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On Aug 1, 2019, at 10:03 AM, Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode <
>>>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> So, this is a documentation problem?
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Aug 1, 2019, at 9:27 AM, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode <
>>>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 2019-08-01 17:12, David Bovill via use-livecode wrote:
>>>>>>> OK - so I have it working by writing to a temporary file.
>>>>>>> Trying to redirect the output to stdout - so that shell() return the
>>>>>>> information of the background process - but this freezes:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Okay so given you want to read/write to the process you launched it
>>>> seems...
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> What's wrong with open process? The *only* difference between open
>>>> process
>>>>>> on macOS compared to Linux (and Windows) is that if you try and open
>>>> process
>>>>>> an app-bundle (i.e. something ending with '.app') it will do the same
>> as
>>>>>> launch (as .app bundles aren't executables).
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The installer uses open (elevated) process to communicate with an
>>>> instance
>>>>>> of itself with elevated permissions. You can see the code for that
>> here:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> <
>>>> 
>> https://github.com/livecode/livecode/blob/develop/builder/installer_utilities.livecodescript
>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The key routines are installerRun and installerMonitor (the latter is
>>>> used
>>>>>> to poll every 20 milliseconds to check if the child process has
>>>> anything to
>>>>>> say).
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Warmest Regards,
>>>>>

Re: Transparent layer between pdf widget and field?

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

Maybe your rectangle can have its blend level and ink tweaked to provide the 
look you want.

> On Aug 1, 2019, at 5:31 PM, doc hawk via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> As I’ve had to build every form myself in the past, they were constructed of 
> fields, lines, and boxes.  As such, with them not being opaque, I could put a 
> rectangle behind the group that was turned visible when the group was active, 
> as a visual  cue.
> 
> Now that I’m using pdfs, this isn’t working as well, as I have fields laying 
> over the pdf in many cases.
> 
> Is it the colorOverlay property I need to do, with my rect above the pdf and 
> below my fields?
> 
> I want the pdf visible enough to read, but the fields in front of it.
> 
> 
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Re: Challenge: who can background this shell command?

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

I am not familiar with hugo. Do you type a ^c to shut down hugo server? In that 
case you might want to consider open for update. 

> On Aug 1, 2019, at 12:19 PM, David Bovill via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> OK - I managed to get it to work with:
> 
>   - open process "/usr/local/bin/hugo server" for read
> 
> which I did not think would work due to the two word shell command.
> 
> Timing was an issue - so I had to use the method found here (thanks Mark) -
> https://github.com/livecode/livecode/blob/develop/builder/installer_utilities.livecodescript
> -
> which uses a send in 20 milliseconds when there is a timeout. basically it
> is complex timing logic, but more direct and probably robust than using a
> bunch of shell commands we put into the background. Still we have tow
> methods that work - restores my faith in the flexibility of Livecode!
> 
> On Thu, 1 Aug 2019 at 17:15, dsc--- via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
>> I feel foolish. From the dictionary:
>> 
>> 
>> Note: On OS X systems, you can use the open process command to start up an
>> application, but not a Unix process. To work with a Unix process, use the
>> shell func instead.
>> 
>> When I saw this in the Dictionary, I thought, "Oh, when did this break?"
>> 
>> I should have thought, "Oh, yeah?"
>> 
>> 
>>> On Aug 1, 2019, at 10:03 AM, Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode <
>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> So, this is a documentation problem?
>>> 
>>>> On Aug 1, 2019, at 9:27 AM, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode <
>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> On 2019-08-01 17:12, David Bovill via use-livecode wrote:
>>>>> OK - so I have it working by writing to a temporary file.
>>>>> Trying to redirect the output to stdout - so that shell() return the
>>>>> information of the background process - but this freezes:
>>>> 
>>>> Okay so given you want to read/write to the process you launched it
>> seems...
>>>> 
>>>> What's wrong with open process? The *only* difference between open
>> process
>>>> on macOS compared to Linux (and Windows) is that if you try and open
>> process
>>>> an app-bundle (i.e. something ending with '.app') it will do the same as
>>>> launch (as .app bundles aren't executables).
>>>> 
>>>> The installer uses open (elevated) process to communicate with an
>> instance
>>>> of itself with elevated permissions. You can see the code for that here:
>>>> 
>>>> <
>> https://github.com/livecode/livecode/blob/develop/builder/installer_utilities.livecodescript
>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> The key routines are installerRun and installerMonitor (the latter is
>> used
>>>> to poll every 20 milliseconds to check if the child process has
>> anything to
>>>> say).
>>>> 
>>>> Warmest Regards,
>>>> 
>>>> Mark.
>>>> 
>>>> --
>>>> Mark Waddingham ~ m...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
>>>> LiveCode: Everyone can create apps
>>>> 
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>> subscription preferences:
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>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
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Re: Challenge: who can background this shell command?

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

So, this is a documentation problem?

> On Aug 1, 2019, at 9:27 AM, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> On 2019-08-01 17:12, David Bovill via use-livecode wrote:
>> OK - so I have it working by writing to a temporary file.
>> Trying to redirect the output to stdout - so that shell() return the
>> information of the background process - but this freezes:
> 
> Okay so given you want to read/write to the process you launched it seems...
> 
> What's wrong with open process? The *only* difference between open process
> on macOS compared to Linux (and Windows) is that if you try and open process
> an app-bundle (i.e. something ending with '.app') it will do the same as
> launch (as .app bundles aren't executables).
> 
> The installer uses open (elevated) process to communicate with an instance
> of itself with elevated permissions. You can see the code for that here:
> 
> 
> 
> The key routines are installerRun and installerMonitor (the latter is used
> to poll every 20 milliseconds to check if the child process has anything to
> say).
> 
> Warmest Regards,
> 
> Mark.
> 
> -- 
> Mark Waddingham ~ m...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
> LiveCode: Everyone can create apps
> 
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Re: Challenge: who can background this shell command?

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

This is one approach I would explore. 

1. Create a window group of one custom window using Terminal. Set it up to run 
the process and have distinctive colors and title. And, most importantly, to 
run the process.

2. Use open process to launch, not Terminal, but the group. This is the part 
where I'm very unsure. Or maybe Terminal but somehow specify group. I do have a 
vague feeling that groups are apps, but I might be off in some parallel 
universe. If not then maybe "do ... as AppleScript".

The window would have the process output, logs and so on. Maybe.

I'm not sure what the best way to shut it down would be.

> On Aug 1, 2019, at 5:55 AM, David Bovill via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> The challenge is to figure out a technique we can use in Livecode to be
> able to call long running shell processes (typically something like an http
> server process) without blocking Livecode.
> 
> To test this without asking anyone to install some cli I thought we could
> try it with an existing long running process that everyone should have in
> their terminal - vi
> 
> So how do you:
> 
> *put* shell ("vi")
> 
> I've tested this and it does not crash here on latest OSX. You do have to
> type command-period a few times to unblock things - but it is more or less
> safe to try in the message box.
> 
> I've also tried:
> 
> *put* shell ("vi &")
> 
> The aim is to out the process in the background, or some other technique -
> like make a bash script that contains the line that launches vi (ie "vi") -
> or perhaps uses screen or tmux, or some trick in Livecode (open process
> does not work for this on OSX)...
> 
> Who can crack this tricky nut :)
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Re: Launching a cli server as background process in OSX

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

Random thoughts, all untested, most goofy, some incoherent:
telnet or ssh
shell() open a customized terminal app window group that has a script
do  as applescript
enhance/repair open process
launch service at startup, but tweak parameters elsehow
Use a tool to turn a shell script into an app  and use open process
use a command-line tool to launch the service as a demon





> On Jul 31, 2019, at 9:24 AM, David Bovill via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> I have a server that I would like launch from Livecode. I've tried shell(),
> launch, open process, and then creatign bash scripts ending with "&" or
> using screen... no joy so far...
> 
> In the terminal I run:
> 
> hugo server
> 
> and a little go server runs and does it's magic. But try as I can nothing I
> do let's me launch the server from Livecode - without the script waiting
> for the never ending process to end and interface freezing.
> 
> Was about to launch into the world of tmux, or trying Applescript :( Any
> ideas?
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Re: darzTimer

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

Thanks! That is helpful. It makes sense.

Does this impact LiveCode Builder and foreign routines?

> On Jul 30, 2019, at 11:35 AM, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> On 2019-07-30 19:32, Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode wrote:
>> The ancient (but free) darzTimer plugin for precision performance
>> timing does not work on LiveCode 9.5.0 RC 1 64-bit on Windows 10. It
>> uses an embedded external for Windows timing and that might be where
>> the problem is.
> 
> It will be - as it won't be built for 64-bit...
> 
> Whilst 64-bit OSes can run 32-bit applications still - processes can only
> load shared libraries which have been compiled with the same bitness.
> 
> Warmest Regards,
> 
> Mark.
> 
> -- 
> Mark Waddingham ~ m...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
> LiveCode: Everyone can create apps
> 
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darzTimer

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

The ancient (but free) darzTimer plugin for precision performance timing does 
not work on LiveCode 9.5.0 RC 1 64-bit on Windows 10. It uses an embedded 
external for Windows timing and that might be where the problem is.

It still works on 9.0.5. 

It is due for a redesign. I think another digit can be squeezed out for macOS 
and jitter can be reduced slightly for both Mac and Windows.  I don't know when 
or if that will happen.



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Re: 9.5 rc1 copy file lag

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

I seem to be getting silent failures with externals and "unexpected libffi 
error" with LiveCode Builder libraries that use foreign functions.

I wonder if we are doing something wrong with 64-bit LiveCode.


> On Jul 26, 2019, at 11:00 AM, Stephen MacLean via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi All,
> 
> Just downloaded the LC 9.5 RC1 (Business) 64 bit yesterday and am now seeing 
> a lot of lagging or hanging when using revCopyFile that I haven’t seen in 
> past releases. It’s really noticeable when I have this running in the 
> background in the IDE, and doing something else in the foreground.
> 
> Once the current run is complete, I’ll try 9.05 RC1 as well. This wasn’t an 
> issue with 9.02.
> 
> If you’ve seen this as well, please let me know.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Steve MacLean
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Re: [ANN] Release 9.5.0 RC-1

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

Yes. Yes.

> On Jul 25, 2019, at 9:47 AM, JJS via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Indeed! I love it.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Jerry
> 
> Op 25-7-2019 om 18:47 schreef Richard Gaskin via use-livecode:
>> Panos wrote:
>> 
>>> We are pleased to announce the release of LiveCode 9.5.0 RC-1.
>> ...
>>> - some long standing problems with serial port commands are now fixed
>> 
>> Super - thanks!
>> 
>> 
>>> Last, but not least, the Android Barcode Library and the Android
>>> Barcode Scanner widget are now moved from the Business Edition
>>> into the Indy Edition.
>> 
>> Excellent move, much appreciated by Indy licensees. Thanks.
>> 
> 
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Re: Rocky islands

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

In trying to take a positive view on this...

Voice command and Sidecar might make it easier to step aside in a demo or 
presentation.  

Sidecar might be handy as a sketch input. Maybe. You know, like an alternative 
mouse.

Sidecar might be a handy place to put the Message Box or a debug window.

Screen Time might be handy for those of us who feel we goof off too much. (I 
use Qbserve for time management.)

Color filter options can help those with color vision deficiencies and help 
others see problem colors on a broader context. 

The Notes enhancements look interesting. (I am readying for an electronic lab 
notebook, but Notes might delay that; I'll try it.)

Being able to run some iOS apps on the Mac is cool, but I wish it could run 
all, transparently. It is frustrating to find just the right app and, oh, it is 
iOS only.

Isolating the system from stuff I try is cool. 

Metal!


However, crowd-sourced Bluetooth locating is scary. 

And the first time to run an app can take a while, it seems, but maybe that is 
really a good thing.



> On Jul 22, 2019, at 8:43 AM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Sounds like you are inferring a lot more into that PR fluff piece than is 
> warranted. I didn't see anywhere in the statement the word, "only". Are you 
> saying that Catalina will ONLY do those things listed in the statement, and 
> nothing else? That seems extreme to me. 
> 
> Bob S
> 
> 
>> On Jul 21, 2019, at 14:31 , Richmond via use-livecode 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> "macOS Catalina gives you more of everything you love about Mac. Experience 
>> music, TV, and podcasts in three all-new Mac apps. Enjoy your favorite iPad 
>> apps now on your Mac. Extend your workspace and expand your creativity with 
>> iPad and Apple Pencil. And discover smart new features in the apps you use 
>> every day. Now you can take everything you do above and beyond."
>> 
>> Wow: I can translate that into far, far easier language:
>> 
>> macOS Catalina gives you more of a plastic bathtoy; an extended gramophone 
>> player, TV, fancy telephone and pornogram, and less of what I was brought up 
>> to believe a computer really should be.
>> 
>> Mind you, the "mene, mene, tekel, up-yours!" was there for all to see when 
>> Steve Jobs killed off Hypercard.
>> 
>> "Enjoy" . . . Cor! John Calvin was right.
>> 
>> Love, Richmond.
> 
> 
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Re: Android 64-bit?

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

Wow!  

Perhaps the constraint for August 1 is that all NEW apps and all UPDATES need 
to include 64-bit. Maybe, they will still serve your apps.

> On Jul 15, 2019, at 2:14 PM, Dan Friedman via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Greetings!   I got some notices from Google (android) that my apps need to be 
> updated to 64-bit by August 1, 2019.   Does LiveCode generate 64-bit Android 
> apps?  If so, can I do that with Indy 9.0.4?  If so, what versions of Android 
> Studio and Android SDKs do I need to install?   Any guidance will be greatly 
> appreciated and surely help keep my hair in my head.
> 
> -Dan
> 
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Re: Catalina is a small, rocky, and largely unprepossessing island.

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

I wonder if there is a way to get rid of it. What would happen should it be 
ripped out of the bundle? Would LC die of heartbreak?

This should be fixed in LC 9.0.6 RC1, but as Mabel told Frederick "It seems so 
long."

> On Jul 14, 2019, at 9:47 AM, Matthias Rebbe via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Richmond,
> 
> is it possible that you´ve enabled one or all options in LC´s 
> preferences->updates?
> 
> If i remember correctly then Panos mentioned in a post that this might come 
> from updater tool.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Matthias
> Matthias Rebbe
> 
> free tools for Livecoders:
> https://instamaker.dermattes.de 
> https://winsignhelper.dermattes.de 
> 
>> Am 14.07.2019 um 15:55 schrieb Richmond via use-livecode 
>> mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>>:
>> 
>> So it would seem.
>> 
>> One of the main factors that is stopping me switching my 2018 MacMini over 
>> to MacOS 10.15
>> are the continuing messages I am getting about LC 9.0.4 and 9.5 DP1 not 
>> being optimised for
>> MacOS 10.14 . . .
>> 
>> Richmond.
>> 
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Re: math on widths doesn't add up

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

Perhaps warmth, strength, wealth, breadth, greenth.
Maybe forth, growth, faith, health.

> On Jul 7, 2019, at 4:07 PM, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> I've just been teaching my youngest about the 4th - nth dimensions. Time is
> not the 4th but the 1st temporal dimension. If the 3 spatial dimensions are
> Length, height and width then the 4th is depth, ie, going inwards and
> outwards as the easiest way to picture it (but not truly representative).
> That being the case, how would you describe the 5th spacial dimension.
> That'll twist your noggin if it's not something you've thought of before :)
> 
> Sean
> 
> 
> On Mon, 17 Jun 2019 at 21:55, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
>> Heh! That reminds me, I knew a British professor once who used the
>> illustration that a two dimensional being, confronted with a line would
>> perceive it as impassible. He then went on to explain how it might be that
>> a 3 dimensional being, when needing to see into the future might perceive
>> it as impossible, whereas to a 4th dimensional being, that is not bound by
>> time, would not.
>> 
>> Bob S
>> 
>> 
>>> On Jun 17, 2019, at 13:24 , Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode <
>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Sure. I do it all the time and everybody knows how 1D I am.
>>> 
>>> Some random thoughts:
>>> 
>>> A Turing machine might be considered 1D. It can draw x,y.
>>> 
>>> This past month, I was working in very high dimensions. I was not able
>> to visualize that very well and used dimension reduction techniques such as
>> PCA, UMAP and t-SNE to help. I would guess the 1D being might have to do
>> something similar for "visualization". Maybe.
>>> 
>>> Lewis and Clark went on a path or route, 1D, and took measurements that
>> allowed them to create a 2D map. That is, the space of the 1D path was
>> assumed to bend in a 2D space.
>>> 
>>> The floor of my lab looks 2D to me, but I have latitude and longitude
>> marked for the center. That labelling assumes a curving into 3D.
>> 
>> 
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Re: DELETE url

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

And an aside. Off topic.

I guess I am old-school. I know it is the fad, but using DELETE to logout seems 
goofy. Yeah, you can make a URL that looks like a session and you are deleting 
the session. But it seems that is like using HEAD to indicate what direction 
you are going or OPTIONS to set up options.  

I know. I'm a cranky curmudgeon. I survive by recognizing that this is no 
longer HTTP, but a wolf in sheep's clothing to get past firewalls, a whole new 
protocol where we make it up as we go.

Now, given that, and I join the 21st century, DELETE returns a status code and 
an optional content. The status code is normally 204 (but maybe 205, which 
might be appropriate for log out) when no content is returned or 200 if content 
is returned. If the item is not there, the same applies, but perhaps 404 or 410 
can also apply. If DELETE is used to mean logout, then the session is 
permanently gone and 410 on a repeat is appropriate. A 303 is OK (content is 
URL), but is probably handled by the underlying library.  

Now, for proper symmetry, if DELETE is used to log out, then PUT must be used 
to log in. Both are idempotent, so logging in multiple times should be OK and 
logging out multiple times should be OK.  That is, a login returns 200 and a 
logout returns 204.  Every time.

I have not seen it implemented that way. We play the hands we are dealt. 

Dar Scott


> On Jul 5, 2019, at 4:23 PM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> The server lady wants it that way. I create signed AWS URLs that are secure 
> and which access her APIs. So far we've only used POST, PUT, and GET. Now 
> we've added a "log out" function and I'm supposed to send the URL with 
> DELETE. She is floored that I can't do that:
> 
> "I can change it if you really don’t have DELETE, but I would find it 
> surprising. If you do have it, I’d prefer to keep it as DELETE since it makes 
> the most sense for the action."
> 
> Then she suggests using cURL but that won't work on mobile where we can't use 
> shell.
> 
> I wouldn't know where to start with tsNetCustom(), but I'll investigate. 
> Suggestions welcome, provided it works on mobile.
> 
> On 7/5/19 3:30 PM, Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode wrote:
>> Testing DELETE is scary. Consider httpstat.us <http://httpstat.us/>, 
>> httpbin.org <http://httpbin.org/> or others for safe testing.
>> I haven't tested, but I'd think that 'delete URL 
>> "http://www.example.com/oldthings.txt 
>> <http://www.example.com/oldthings.txt>"' should work.
>> You might need to pass along some auth:
>> delete URL "http://badwolf:swordf...@www.example.com/secretthings.txt 
>> <http://badwolf:swordf...@www.example.com/secretthings.txt>"
>> If not, you can directly use TCP. It is as easy as a simple GET. It is as 
>> hard as figuring out simple HTTP.
>> Or consider tsNetCustom() and use "DELETE" as the request.
>> Dar Scott
>> darzLab
>>> On Jul 5, 2019, at 1:55 PM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I need to send a DELETE to a server. I only know of PUT, GET, and POST 
>>> options. Does tsNet support DELETE? If not, how would I do that?
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
>>> HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
> 
> 
> -- 
> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
> HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
> 
> 
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Re: DELETE url

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

You know where to start with tsNetCustom(); look in the dictionary. From there? 
Maybe compare that with tsNetGet() and make changes as needed.  

> On Jul 5, 2019, at 4:23 PM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> The server lady wants it that way. I create signed AWS URLs that are secure 
> and which access her APIs. So far we've only used POST, PUT, and GET. Now 
> we've added a "log out" function and I'm supposed to send the URL with 
> DELETE. She is floored that I can't do that:
> 
> "I can change it if you really don’t have DELETE, but I would find it 
> surprising. If you do have it, I’d prefer to keep it as DELETE since it makes 
> the most sense for the action."
> 
> Then she suggests using cURL but that won't work on mobile where we can't use 
> shell.
> 
> I wouldn't know where to start with tsNetCustom(), but I'll investigate. 
> Suggestions welcome, provided it works on mobile.
> 
> On 7/5/19 3:30 PM, Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode wrote:
>> Testing DELETE is scary. Consider httpstat.us <http://httpstat.us/>, 
>> httpbin.org <http://httpbin.org/> or others for safe testing.
>> I haven't tested, but I'd think that 'delete URL 
>> "http://www.example.com/oldthings.txt 
>> <http://www.example.com/oldthings.txt>"' should work.
>> You might need to pass along some auth:
>> delete URL "http://badwolf:swordf...@www.example.com/secretthings.txt 
>> <http://badwolf:swordf...@www.example.com/secretthings.txt>"
>> If not, you can directly use TCP. It is as easy as a simple GET. It is as 
>> hard as figuring out simple HTTP.
>> Or consider tsNetCustom() and use "DELETE" as the request.
>> Dar Scott
>> darzLab
>>> On Jul 5, 2019, at 1:55 PM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I need to send a DELETE to a server. I only know of PUT, GET, and POST 
>>> options. Does tsNet support DELETE? If not, how would I do that?
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
>>> HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
> 
> 
> -- 
> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
> HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
> 
> 
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Re: DELETE url

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

Testing DELETE is scary. Consider httpstat.us , 
httpbin.org  or others for safe testing.

I haven't tested, but I'd think that 'delete URL 
"http://www.example.com/oldthings.txt "' 
should work. 

You might need to pass along some auth:
delete URL "http://badwolf:swordf...@www.example.com/secretthings.txt 
"

If not, you can directly use TCP. It is as easy as a simple GET. It is as hard 
as figuring out simple HTTP.

Or consider tsNetCustom() and use "DELETE" as the request.


Dar Scott
darzLab

> On Jul 5, 2019, at 1:55 PM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> I need to send a DELETE to a server. I only know of PUT, GET, and POST 
> options. Does tsNet support DELETE? If not, how would I do that?
> 
> -- 
> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
> HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
> 
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Re: Rename object

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

Would this work?

clone control "gizmo" as "blivet"


> On Jul 4, 2019, at 10:04 AM, doc hawk via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> On Jul 4, 2019, at 1:30 AM, Klaus major-k via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
>> 
>> set the name of last img to “XXX_2"
> 
> Also
> 
> clone control “gizmo”
> set the  name of it to “blivet"
> 
> Will  handle your new object.
> 
> If I’m going to work with the  new object for a few lines, I always use
> 
> put the long id of it into tgTg
> 
> As the next  line, just in case I do something  that changes “it”
> 
> 
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