Re: Newbies, becareful of pure cookie based magic... theres a few gotcha's
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Leon, Leon Rosenberg wrote: Having said that, there are a lot of use cases where you explicitelly don't want google or anyone else to index the site, cause it contains private information, would you like to see your private emails or your health check or your account's balance sheet in google, and would you like other people to see it? For those cases it's completely irrelevant whether the site is easy-index-able or not, and doesn't influence your framework decision. ... and just as easy to use a robots.txt file to disable (legitimate) search engine indexing. I would argue that protected content should be ... protected anyway, and not indexable at all, regardless of robot.txt status. Craig McClanahan once said, that probably 90% of struts applications worldwide are running behind company firewalls in intranets. How relevant is indexing for those? (And yes, I know that they can buy google appliance and index them privately :-)) I'm not sure the Struts example is relevant, here, since Struts doesn't use single-URL semantics. Or, at least, it does not encourage these semantics. To sum it up, there are a lot of homework you have to perform if you want your site properly indexed, and using a framework which hides everything behind one url and sends POST requests is surely contra productive. Absolutely. - -chris -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkjJPssACgkQ9CaO5/Lv0PCbkACgj9VKg7W1IXqoYMQhK08gQ+Ta +1AAoIaZXQGAhkrpcJ7shjN/GidDQqXB =MVss -END PGP SIGNATURE- - To start a new topic, e-mail: users@tomcat.apache.org To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Newbies, becareful of pure cookie based magic... theres a few gotcha's
Hi Johny, first of all you can't force people to use their brain, if someone is building a portal or site which needs to be indexed and is using single-entry-point framework, that means he hasn't checked his requirements before he started to work or hasn't consulted the seo guys/forums/mailing lists, hence its his fault. Having said that, there are a lot of use cases where you explicitelly don't want google or anyone else to index the site, cause it contains private information, would you like to see your private emails or your health check or your account's balance sheet in google, and would you like other people to see it? For those cases it's completely irrelevant whether the site is easy-index-able or not, and doesn't influence your framework decision. Craig McClanahan once said, that probably 90% of struts applications worldwide are running behind company firewalls in intranets. How relevant is indexing for those? (And yes, I know that they can buy google appliance and index them privately :-)) For those 10% of the sites which are running publicly accessible probably half of them need at least partial indexing. Even in that case you're not done with framework alone, you need other css for indexing, you shouldn't use tables, you need another content disposition and and and ... To sum it up, there are a lot of homework you have to perform if you want your site properly indexed, and using a framework which hides everything behind one url and sends POST requests is surely contra productive. But this doesn't give you the right to bash the framework itself or warn people against its usage, since this framework have its usage outside of your scope. It's like saying don't swim in a pool, you could be attacked by piranhas. Leon P.S. and: Anyway that all I'm saying because I think after 6 months of hard work and design if developers do find themselves in this position, its a real gotcha... Probably can be avoided or done correctly in any framework... but they getting caught... thats all I'm trying to say to developers, because once there, how do you help them? Create another navigation path using filters and rewrite (internal forwards +url rewriting) rules and let google walk that path. On Mon, Sep 8, 2008 at 1:41 AM, Johnny Kewl [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Original Message - From: Leon Rosenberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Tomcat Users List users@tomcat.apache.org Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2008 9:49 PM Subject: Re: Newbies, becareful of pure cookie based magic... theres a few gotcha's I think you are speaking about JSF and I think you are completely misunderstanding the concept. The diversification is done via parameters just as same as it's done via content path or 'visible' parameters in old school frameworks. The actual problem is that everything is sent via POST and that is or was a problem with google some time ago. But if you are creating a login protected site for members, why the hell should you care about google? Just separate seo-related content from the application and be happy. The seo guys are happiest with php anyway. Leon... what is it that it all done with a POST? All I've noticed is that someone is asking questions, how do I get my site onto google, how do I get the proxy server to cache, and when you try help them it becomes apparent that its all behind one url... and then I really dont know what to tell em, other that redesign your site, sorry... Its actually difficult to imagine a site built using just using TC technology having a single url, its got to be coming from one major control servlet that even does things like include static content and ajax is used incorrectly. I tend to agree with this guy for instance... http://www.webpronews.com/expertarticles/2006/11/21/ajax-and-search-engines Ajax or XMLHttpRequest can use a post, but I've never used it that way, for the most part is always a get on our stuff? Whether public or private I think anyone should be thinking about the possibility of indexing their site. I dont think its impossible at all to make a cookie driven site search engine friendly, but it doesnt seem be happening... Without even taking technology, if one minute the content behind a url is cars for sale, and the next minute its top sales man of the year, how do you index that? And if a user is wanting to pull TC apart to get at Vary: ETags... wonder why that is... maybe another single url site got em ;) Anyway that all I'm saying because I think after 6 months of hard work and design if developers do find themselves in this position, its a real gotcha... Probably can be avoided or done correctly in any framework... but they getting caught... thats all I'm trying to say to developers, because once there, how do you help them? On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 2:42 AM, Johnny Kewl [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I see this in the Netbeans group and its popping up its ugly head and making other area's complex
Re: Newbies, becareful of pure cookie based magic... theres a few gotcha's
But this doesn't give you the right to bash the framework Have to agree, shouldnt have mentioned it ;) - To start a new topic, e-mail: users@tomcat.apache.org To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Newbies, becareful of pure cookie based magic... theres a few gotcha's
Johnny Kewl wrote: Going to add this to my other no no's like those people that insist on building entire site only in JSP pages... I'm not sure I get your meaning here. Do you mean really just JSP's with no Java classes (beans or otherwise) that aren't in the JSP's themselves? Yeah. That would be bad. I've seen it too *cough*Oracle Applications*cough* - To start a new topic, e-mail: users@tomcat.apache.org To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Newbies, becareful of pure cookie based magic... theres a few gotcha's
I think you are speaking about JSF and I think you are completely misunderstanding the concept. The diversification is done via parameters just as same as it's done via content path or 'visible' parameters in old school frameworks. The actual problem is that everything is sent via POST and that is or was a problem with google some time ago. But if you are creating a login protected site for members, why the hell should you care about google? Just separate seo-related content from the application and be happy. The seo guys are happiest with php anyway. Leon On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 2:42 AM, Johnny Kewl [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I see this in the Netbeans group and its popping up its ugly head and making other area's complex. It seems with these modern day frameworks, I have an idea which one it is in particular but wont mention names... that its possible to build an entire site behind one URL http://mydomain/IamInTroubleProject and every thing is cookie managed and delivered behind this URL... If you are doing that... just start by asking yourself, how google is going to index it... the actual content. And as I'm starting to realize there are other issues like caching proxies and the like... Going to add this to my other no no's like those people that insist on building entire site only in JSP pages... but this one is actually a big gotcha, especially when the client comes back and says... um I want them to find the stuff I'm selling ;) Have Fun... --- HARBOR : http://www.kewlstuff.co.za/index.htm The most powerful application server on earth. The only real POJO Application Server. See it in Action : http://www.kewlstuff.co.za/cd_tut_swf/whatisejb1.htm --- - To start a new topic, e-mail: users@tomcat.apache.org To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To start a new topic, e-mail: users@tomcat.apache.org To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Newbies, becareful of pure cookie based magic... theres a few gotcha's
- Original Message - From: Leon Rosenberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Tomcat Users List users@tomcat.apache.org Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2008 9:49 PM Subject: Re: Newbies, becareful of pure cookie based magic... theres a few gotcha's I think you are speaking about JSF and I think you are completely misunderstanding the concept. The diversification is done via parameters just as same as it's done via content path or 'visible' parameters in old school frameworks. The actual problem is that everything is sent via POST and that is or was a problem with google some time ago. But if you are creating a login protected site for members, why the hell should you care about google? Just separate seo-related content from the application and be happy. The seo guys are happiest with php anyway. Leon... what is it that it all done with a POST? All I've noticed is that someone is asking questions, how do I get my site onto google, how do I get the proxy server to cache, and when you try help them it becomes apparent that its all behind one url... and then I really dont know what to tell em, other that redesign your site, sorry... Its actually difficult to imagine a site built using just using TC technology having a single url, its got to be coming from one major control servlet that even does things like include static content and ajax is used incorrectly. I tend to agree with this guy for instance... http://www.webpronews.com/expertarticles/2006/11/21/ajax-and-search-engines Ajax or XMLHttpRequest can use a post, but I've never used it that way, for the most part is always a get on our stuff? Whether public or private I think anyone should be thinking about the possibility of indexing their site. I dont think its impossible at all to make a cookie driven site search engine friendly, but it doesnt seem be happening... Without even taking technology, if one minute the content behind a url is cars for sale, and the next minute its top sales man of the year, how do you index that? And if a user is wanting to pull TC apart to get at Vary: ETags... wonder why that is... maybe another single url site got em ;) Anyway that all I'm saying because I think after 6 months of hard work and design if developers do find themselves in this position, its a real gotcha... Probably can be avoided or done correctly in any framework... but they getting caught... thats all I'm trying to say to developers, because once there, how do you help them? On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 2:42 AM, Johnny Kewl [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I see this in the Netbeans group and its popping up its ugly head and making other area's complex. It seems with these modern day frameworks, I have an idea which one it is in particular but wont mention names... that its possible to build an entire site behind one URL http://mydomain/IamInTroubleProject and every thing is cookie managed and delivered behind this URL... If you are doing that... just start by asking yourself, how google is going to index it... the actual content. And as I'm starting to realize there are other issues like caching proxies and the like... Going to add this to my other no no's like those people that insist on building entire site only in JSP pages... but this one is actually a big gotcha, especially when the client comes back and says... um I want them to find the stuff I'm selling ;) Have Fun... --- HARBOR : http://www.kewlstuff.co.za/index.htm The most powerful application server on earth. The only real POJO Application Server. See it in Action : http://www.kewlstuff.co.za/cd_tut_swf/whatisejb1.htm --- - To start a new topic, e-mail: users@tomcat.apache.org To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To start a new topic, e-mail: users@tomcat.apache.org To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To start a new topic, e-mail: users@tomcat.apache.org To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Newbies, becareful of pure cookie based magic... theres a few gotcha's
if you want to leave the cookies behind you'll have to request the filter to rewrite your URLs with the params http://tuckey.org/urlrewrite/ you should be able to implement your filter with netbeans or Jdeveloper or eclipse with no impact to your work.. Martin __ Disclaimer and confidentiality note Everything in this e-mail and any attachments relates to the official business of Sender. This transmission is of a confidential nature and Sender does not endorse distribution to any party other than intended recipient. Sender does not necessarily endorse content contained within this transmission. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: users@tomcat.apache.org Subject: Newbies, becareful of pure cookie based magic... theres a few gotcha's Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 02:42:19 +0200 I see this in the Netbeans group and its popping up its ugly head and making other area's complex. It seems with these modern day frameworks, I have an idea which one it is in particular but wont mention names... that its possible to build an entire site behind one URL http://mydomain/IamInTroubleProject and every thing is cookie managed and delivered behind this URL... If you are doing that... just start by asking yourself, how google is going to index it... the actual content. And as I'm starting to realize there are other issues like caching proxies and the like... Going to add this to my other no no's like those people that insist on building entire site only in JSP pages... but this one is actually a big gotcha, especially when the client comes back and says... um I want them to find the stuff I'm selling ;) Have Fun... --- HARBOR : http://www.kewlstuff.co.za/index.htm The most powerful application server on earth. The only real POJO Application Server. See it in Action : http://www.kewlstuff.co.za/cd_tut_swf/whatisejb1.htm --- - To start a new topic, e-mail: users@tomcat.apache.org To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ Get more out of the Web. Learn 10 hidden secrets of Windows Live. http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!550F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008
Re: Newbies, becareful of pure cookie based magic... theres a few gotcha's
- Original Message - From: Martin Gainty [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Tomcat Users List users@tomcat.apache.org Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2008 5:03 AM Subject: RE: Newbies, becareful of pure cookie based magic... theres a few gotcha's if you want to leave the cookies behind you'll have to request the filter to rewrite your URLs with the params http://tuckey.org/urlrewrite/ you should be able to implement your filter with netbeans or Jdeveloper or eclipse with no impact to your work.. Martin Thx Nice to know TC also has a mod_rewrite... --- HARBOR : http://www.kewlstuff.co.za/index.htm The most powerful application server on earth. The only real POJO Application Server. See it in Action : http://www.kewlstuff.co.za/cd_tut_swf/whatisejb1.htm --- - To start a new topic, e-mail: users@tomcat.apache.org To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
