Re: Prius hybrids selling at a premium
Jed Rothwell wrote: Terry explained to me that they can sell cars for more than the list price. I did not know that. It shows how little I know about cars. I suppose these high prices are caused by a shortage. They are planning to increase production, which should bring the price back down to the list price. Right? I have never paid anything but the list price for a car. Production is increasing. The wait time used to be six months for a Prius. It is now two months. As far as price, I paid $500 over list for my Scion xB. The dealer says that it's not because of demand; but, that they require more profit than Scion is paying. I am pleased with the Scion. I actually got 34 mpg on my last tank, the EPA figure listed for highway mileage.
Re: Re: Prius hybrids selling at a premium
From: Stephen A. Lawrence [EMAIL PROTECTED] And social security, which is, what -- 7.5%? Don't forget that. Social security is 15.5% as any self-employed person knows. Corporations are required to pay half of their employees SS tax.
Re: Prius hybrids selling at a premium
Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: And please note that Jed's income numbers stopped at $116,666. If you look at larger incomes . . . No, that is the average for the top 20% of the U.S. That's everyone, including Bill Gates. This data was from several years ago (not sure when). The amounts for all 5 groups has gone up since then. The top 20% has increased the most. - Jed
Re: Prius hybrids selling at a premium
--- Terry Blanton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: $27k to $32k depending on location and political preference. :-) http://tinyurl.com/63t3m Bleah. I don't make enough to even begin to afford that. Most people out there drive used cars because they cannot afford a new one. Much less something like this. I'm wondering what the road salt is going to do to electrical windings in hybrid/electric vehicles driven here in Buffalo NY over time. --Kyle __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
Re: Prius hybrids selling at a premium
Terry Blanton wrote: $27k to $32k depending on location and political preference. :-) http://tinyurl.com/63t3m What do you mean $27,000? It says the base price is $21,000 or $19,000. (What does MSRP mean?) Plus you should get airbags for another $560. All the other stuff in packages 2 through 6 seems useless to me. I did not get a radio with my car, and if I lived in NY, I would not bother with airconditioning. Who needs 'em? If you must hear music, get a $20 Wall-Mart boom box. It ain't worth seven grand! Where do you get $32,000? Maybe I am missing something here. I have not bought many cars. - Jed
Re: Prius hybrids selling at a premium
Terry explained to me that they can sell cars for more than the list price. I did not know that. It shows how little I know about cars. I suppose these high prices are caused by a shortage. They are planning to increase production, which should bring the price back down to the list price. Right? I have never paid anything but the list price for a car. - Jed
Re: Prius hybrids selling at a premium
At 10:41 AM 4/14/5, Jed Rothwell wrote: These percentages are much too high. I should not try to quote these things off the top of my head. Here are the corrected figures as reported in the New York Times a few years ago. Income group, Average pretax income, Total government tax receipts, As a percentage of income Bottom 20%, $7,946, $1449, 18% Second 20%, $20,319, $2847, 14% Middle 20%, $35,536, $5,622, 16% Fourth 20%, $56,891, $9,835, 17% Top 20%, $116,666, $21,623, 19% This looks utterly bogus! Possibly more oriented around witholding than actual tax maybe? It looks like no one bothered to even look at a form 1040. Consider this year for example (other years similar, just slightly different numbers). A single person gets $7,950 in deductions right off, so would not pay any federal taxes at all on $7,946. If the percentage is based on taxable income and not adjusted gross income, then that percentage is highly misleading. For example the first line of numbers for this year should be: Bottom 20%, $7,946, $795, 5%, where the 5% is of actual income of $7,946 + $7,950 = $15,896. After taking the deductions, the tax table this year applies the formula: $0 - $7150,10% $7150 - $29,050, 15% $29,050 - $70,350, 25% $70,350 - $146750, 28% etc. HOWEVER, people making over $100,000 are increasingly getting it socked to them at a much higher rate in the form of an alternative minimum tax. This also does not include the possibility of Earned Income Credit (EIC) for the low end wage earners. There is no way to get to $1,449 taxes on $7,946 actual income. All the $1,449 would have to be state and local taxes and sales tax, and that just can't be 18%, unless maybe all the money were spent on booze, cigarettes, and gasolene. 8^) Regards, Horace Heffner
Re: Prius hybrids selling at a premium
--- Stephen A. Lawrence [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip glamourous description of Europe Then move there. My employers are German. They came here because it is increasingly hard to make a decent living there. I see them 5 days a week and they tell me all about it, whether I want to hear it or not. We do not have to have the same costs as Europe just because they do. This is a different country. --Kyle __ Yahoo! Mail Mobile Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail
Re: Prius hybrids selling at a premium
Kyle Mcallister wrote: Not to mention that most people cannot afford a Prius in any case. They are not cheap. $27k to $32k depending on location and political preference. :-) http://tinyurl.com/63t3m
Re: Prius hybrids selling at a premium
Horace Heffner wrote: At 10:41 AM 4/14/5, Jed Rothwell wrote: These percentages are much too high. I should not try to quote these things off the top of my head. Here are the corrected figures as reported in the New York Times a few years ago. Income group, Average pretax income, Total government tax receipts, As a percentage of income Bottom 20%, $7,946, $1449, 18% Second 20%, $20,319, $2847, 14% Middle 20%, $35,536, $5,622, 16% Fourth 20%, $56,891, $9,835, 17% Top 20%, $116,666, $21,623, 19% This looks utterly bogus! Possibly more oriented around witholding than actual tax maybe? It looks like no one bothered to even look at a form 1040. Consider this year for example (other years similar, just slightly different numbers). A single person gets $7,950 in deductions right off, so would not pay any federal taxes at all on $7,946. If the percentage is based on taxable income and not adjusted gross income, then that percentage is highly misleading. For example the first line of numbers for this year should be: Bottom 20%, $7,946, $795, 5%, where the 5% is of actual income of $7,946 + $7,950 = $15,896. After taking the deductions, the tax table this year applies the formula: $0 - $7150,10% $7150 - $29,050, 15% $29,050 - $70,350, 25% $70,350 - $146750, 28% Apples to oranges! Those are marginal rates; Jed's quoting the total take. You're looking at the derivative, Jed's talking about the result once you integrate it. And please note that Jed's income numbers stopped at $116,666. If you look at larger incomes, and ignore use of loopholes and fancy deductions (and the alternative minimum tax and yada yada yada), you'd presuamably see the percentage paid in rise toward the top marginal rate in the limit. And Jed was also looking at the total tax take, which is, of course, impossible to precisely divide up among the various income levels, but which surely hits the lower levels harder than an extrapolation from Schedule X would suggest. SS tax is regressive and starts at the first $1 -- AFACR there is no zero-bracket amount for SS. Many state taxes do the same thing. And if the table _really_ represented Total government tax receipts then it must have included sales tax too and there is just no way that can be anything except a coarse approximation, but in any case sales tax also starts at the first $1. etc. HOWEVER, people making over $100,000 are increasingly getting it socked to them at a much higher rate in the form of an alternative minimum tax. Yeah, Congress refused to index it. Strange -- I'd've thought Bush's cronies would've wanted that done. This also does not include the possibility of Earned Income Credit (EIC) for the low end wage earners. There is no way to get to $1,449 taxes on $7,946 actual income. All the $1,449 would have to be state and local taxes and sales tax, And social security, which is, what -- 7.5%? Don't forget that. and that just can't be 18%, unless maybe all the money were spent on booze, cigarettes, and gasolene. Postage, that's the ticket! It's 100% tax! And there's that gas-hog tax on V-8 engines. (Or is there?) How're guns and ammo taxed? 8^) Regards, Horace Heffner
Re: Prius hybrids selling at a premium
Jed Rothwell wrote: See: http://money.cnn.com/2005/04/11/Autos/used_prius/index.htm QUOTES: Used Prius prices like new High gas prices, long waits bring used Prius prices above list price of a new model, study says. NEW YORK (CNN/Money) - Demand for the gas-electric hybrid Prius is so great that some used Priuses are selling for more than the list price for a new one, a report said on Monday. . . . The survey said that 8 percent of the consumers considered hybrid vehicles in March, twice as much as 4 percent in February. It also said if gas prices reach $3 per gallon 77 percent of car shoppers will seriously consider a more fuel efficient vehicle. Fabulous! I've been saying for years (mostly to my long-suffering family) that the biggest thing wrong with the way our petroleum policy is run in this country is that there should be a federal gasoline tax which keeps the price per gallon in the $3 to $5 range, at a minimum. We missed our chance to do something like that relatively easily back during the gas crisis in the 70's -- the price should never have been allowed back down. . . . The 2005 Prius also had the highest owner satisfaction of any 2005 model, according to an owner survey by /Consumer Reports/ magazine. . . . A spokesman for Toyota told CNN that the wait time for a new Prius hybrid is currently about 2 months, down from 6 months last year because of an increase in production. . . .
Re: Prius hybrids selling at a premium
--- Stephen A. Lawrence [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Fabulous! I've been saying for years (mostly to my long-suffering family) that the biggest thing wrong with the way our petroleum policy is run in this country is that there should be a federal gasoline tax which keeps the price per gallon in the $3 to $5 range, at a minimum. This is the stupidest thing I have heard in a while. Force the gas prices to be that high? How much do you make a year? Have any idea how this will affect the masses out there who make very little a year (while working their asses off for what they get) and barely get by now? If they cannot get to work, they will have no money. If they have no money to spend and do not do a job, that money no longer works with the economy and that job is gone. This is a real good plan to screw things up worse than they already are. If you want to pay that, then go ahead. Not to mention that most people cannot afford a Prius in any case. They are not cheap. What the federal government should do if they really want to cut the consumption of fossil fuels is to put in place a program to produce cheap small hybrids. A Prius does not qualify for cheap. Yes, you might have to leave out a few bullshit luxuries. Sorry folks, you have to get off your duff and crank the windows down and forget the power locks too. No fancy Bose sound systems either. Just a bare-bones cheap hybrid car. If you want to spend the money and upgrade to a better one with the frills, be my guest. But make it a requirement that something be available for those of us who cannot afford all that crap. Truly a people's car. If I had or could afford a Prius, I would probably get one to save money and know I am doing something good for the environment. I would also destroy the plastic body on it, make my own that doesn't look dog-ugly, and register it as a custom vehicle. But since I cannot afford such things, I will continue to drive V-6's and V-8's which are much more economically feasible to maintain in my income range. --Kyle __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
RE: Prius hybrids selling at a premium
Hi Kyle, I think what you need to ask yourself is; is 5$ a gallon gas better or worse than being drafted into military service to take the oil by force? Last figures I read had us at 1 million plus men in service; Rumsfeld ( perhaps the only honest man in the administration ) says now we have _no_ exit strategy in Iraq, only a victory strategy. Can't do much more with a volunteer force, and more strife is coming. We're there to stay my friend, and more bodies will be needed to grease the wheels of the juggernaut. You'd be surprised, prices in Europe are about this much and people seem to have adapted. I can appreciate you concern though. With the collapse of the industrial base in America, working class folks like yourself are getting squeezed to the point of extinction. Hey, if it looks like medieval feudalism, well, maybe it is. K. -Original Message- From: Kyle Mcallister [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 6:32 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Prius hybrids selling at a premium --- Stephen A. Lawrence [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Fabulous! I've been saying for years (mostly to my long-suffering family) that the biggest thing wrong with the way our petroleum policy is run in this country is that there should be a federal gasoline tax which keeps the price per gallon in the $3 to $5 range, at a minimum. This is the stupidest thing I have heard in a while. Force the gas prices to be that high? How much do you make a year? Have any idea how this will affect the masses out there who make very little a year (while working their asses off for what they get) and barely get by now? If they cannot get to work, they will have no money. If they have no money to spend and do not do a job, that money no longer works with the economy and that job is gone. This is a real good plan to screw things up worse than they already are. If you want to pay that, then go ahead. Not to mention that most people cannot afford a Prius in any case. They are not cheap. What the federal government should do if they really want to cut the consumption of fossil fuels is to put in place a program to produce cheap small hybrids. A Prius does not qualify for cheap. Yes, you might have to leave out a few bullshit luxuries. Sorry folks, you have to get off your duff and crank the windows down and forget the power locks too. No fancy Bose sound systems either. Just a bare-bones cheap hybrid car. If you want to spend the money and upgrade to a better one with the frills, be my guest. But make it a requirement that something be available for those of us who cannot afford all that crap. Truly a people's car. If I had or could afford a Prius, I would probably get one to save money and know I am doing something good for the environment. I would also destroy the plastic body on it, make my own that doesn't look dog-ugly, and register it as a custom vehicle. But since I cannot afford such things, I will continue to drive V-6's and V-8's which are much more economically feasible to maintain in my income range. --Kyle __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
Re: Prius hybrids selling at a premium
Kyle Mcallister wrote: --- Stephen A. Lawrence [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Fabulous! I've been saying for years (mostly to my long-suffering family) that the biggest thing wrong with the way our petroleum policy is run in this country is that there should be a federal gasoline tax which keeps the price per gallon in the $3 to $5 range, at a minimum. This is the stupidest thing I have heard in a while. Force the gas prices to be that high? How much do you make a year? Have any idea how this will affect the masses out there who make very little a year Yeah, it would force them to live like Europeans. (You know, that continent on the other side of the Atlantic where gas prices really were that high and where people didn't burn it like there was no tomorrow, as a result.) But then, they're all so impoverished over in Europe, and they all die so young, don't they? Work themselves to death, those poor folks, really. Oh, whoops, no, they live longer than we do, for the most part, and they don't work as hard as we do, either, despite those high prices for fuel. Tres etrange.
Re: Prius hybrids selling at a premium
Kyle Mcallister writes: price per gallon in the $3 to $5 range, at a minimum. This is the stupidest thing I have heard in a while. Force the gas prices to be that high? How much do you make a year? Have any idea how this will affect the masses out there who make very little a year (while . . . You are saying this tax would be regressive: it would hurt poor people more than rich people, because everyone has to drive roughly the same amount. I think this is true. A stiff tax on gasoline would hurt working poor people and the middle class. For that reason, I would recommend that the income tax for people making less than $50,000 per year be reduced by a large factor, enough to offset most of the new gas tax. Two-thirds of the money that comes in from the gasoline tax should be returned to people in the lower brackets. Also, much of the money should be made available as low interest loans to people who need to buy hybrid cars, house insulation, and other energy-saving technology. At present, taking into account Social Security tax, state and local taxes, the U.S. has a kind of flat rate tax system. It is kind of bowed in the middle. Poor people pay around 30%, middle class people around 25%, and rich people 30 to 35%. I would make it 20%, 30% and 40%. Proposals for a flat income tax, or a $5 gasoline tax with no other changes, would both tilt the system heavily against poor people, forcing them to pay a much higher percent of the income than rich people do. Not to mention that most people cannot afford a Prius in any case. They are not cheap. Don't they cost $20,000? That's more than my $9,000 Geo Metro, but it is not all that much. It is much cheaper than a $15,000 car over the life of the vehicle, when you factor in the cost of gas. Anyway, as I said, part of the $5 gas tax revenue should be used to make loans to poor people who need new, energy efficient cars. - Jed
Prius hybrids selling at a premium
See: http://money.cnn.com/2005/04/11/Autos/used_prius/index.htm QUOTES: Used Prius prices like new High gas prices, long waits bring used Prius prices above list price of a new model, study says. NEW YORK (CNN/Money) - Demand for the gas-electric hybrid Prius is so great that some used Priuses are selling for more than the list price for a new one, a report said on Monday. . . . The survey said that 8 percent of the consumers considered hybrid vehicles in March, twice as much as 4 percent in February. It also said if gas prices reach $3 per gallon 77 percent of car shoppers will seriously consider a more fuel efficient vehicle. . . . The 2005 Prius also had the highest owner satisfaction of any 2005 model, according to an owner survey by Consumer Reports magazine. . . . A spokesman for Toyota told CNN that the wait time for a new Prius hybrid is currently about 2 months, down from 6 months last year because of an increase in production. . . .
