Re: [libreoffice-website] Back to top link for all pages (was: Current Website)
2011.01.20 02:38, Christian Lohmaier rašė: Hi Klaus-Jürgen, *, On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 8:04 AM, klaus-jürgen weghorn ol wrote: Am 13.01.2011 21:48, schrieb Christian Lohmaier: On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 3:21 PM, klaus-jürgen weghorn ol wrote: ["back to top" link like on the limesurvey site] And if so, at what position? Lower right as limesurvey site? I think the position is quite good. It is moved away from the text but will follow if you change the width of your browser. I added it to the pumbaa site as a demo - what do you think? http://pumbaa.documentfoundation.org:7780/ (scroll down a little, the link will appear) If your monitor is too big and display the whole page at once, try http://pumbaa.documentfoundation.org:7780/get-help/mailing-lists/ - that one is longer .-)) Looks nice. It would be even nicer if it worked without JavaScript enabled too. ;) Rimas -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-website] Third level page in navbar
Hi Klaus, :-) I won't really provide an answer to this, as it's an area that's rather more especially under the coordination of Ivan at the moment, and he and Christian can answer you better. ;-) David Nelson -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[libreoffice-website] Third level page in navbar
Hi Klaus-Jürgen, *, (this is the answer from Christian to my mail (sent with permission)) On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 4:36 PM, klaus-jürgen weghorn ol wrote: > > > > Is it possible to put the third level in a third navigation on the top like > > the two others? No - I don't see a chance to a third horizontal navigation. That would take away too much screen estate and cause too much jumping > > Or were there some other decisions about that? No, no real decisions. The reason why I added is at it is now is basically the third level itself: http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/faq/general-faq/ e.g. There you got the third-level entries at the left navbar (general and licencing), and the fourth level ones in the hover-menu. How that hover-menu is styled visually is a completely other topic, and is in no way considered final, it is just a quick'n'dirty way with no dedicated styling. e.g. when you're on http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/faq/licensing-faq/can-i-hack-libreoffice/ (a fourth level) you see * Top-level menu highlighted (Get Help -horizontal main menu bar) * Second-level menu highlighted (FAQ - horizontal second level bar) * Third-level section highlighted (Licence, indicated by the » that it is the current one) Fourth level can be seen when hovering over the third level entry (current entry it is bold) >From this fourth level page, you're able to access all FAQ pages. The main category page by using the second-level (horizontal one), or a individual faq-entry by using the hover menu, or a category-summary page by using the left-navbar entries directly. i.e. go one level up and you're at http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/faq/licensing-faq/ Now the Third-level section is bold and marked with », but still you're able to access all pages of the FAQ "category" Going up one level to http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/faq/ - you now have the second-level navbar at the left hand side similar to the FAQs category, you're not "deep enough" to consider you're really in that category, but rather browsing around, thus you get access to all subcategories and subsub pages of the GetHelp section, i.e. the subpages of the installation instructions and the FAQs - as those are the only ones that have subpages. That only few pages actually have a third level is the other main reason why I did choose to display the second-level menu (that is already available in the horizontal navbar) as basis. This is with the idea to avoid showing empty left-navbar for pages where there is no subpage, in effect forcing the page to be setup to fullwidth to not create a "oh, looks like something is missing" impression, and in turn then making all pages of the level fullwidth to not have one page with navbar, and another of the same level without. (And yes, I don't like that so many pages are set to fullwidth, as I prefer shorter lines of text, a fullwidth page results in too long lines, that's why the fullwidth setting also is not the default. In my eyes the Installation one for example should not be fullwidth, neither should the other pages of that level. When you got screenshot or other elements to display that naturally shorten the space for the text, then of course it is a different case, then fullwidth makes perfect sense. But for text-only pages, I like the the narrower text-area much, much better, but that's my personal opinion) I hope the reasons are clear why it is like it is. I'd be most interested in concrete suggestions rather than "ah, it's no good" :-) So "NO" to a third horizontal navbar, but aside from that I'm of course open for suggestions. Is the problem with the hover menu just the visual appearance? ciao Christian -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[libreoffice-website] Third level page in navbar
Hi David, Christian, (was first a private mail) I know you are quite in a different deep thought but: on the German ML we have a discussion about the left navbar for the third page level. [1] We need this third level page and so we need a navigation. There are comments which dislike the left navbar and its handling with the hangout. You, David, try to bypass the problem [2] but on the other side you do it in the other way [3]. Is it possible to put the third level in a third navigation on the top like the two others? Or were there some other decisions about that? Cheers k-j [1] http://go.mail-archive.com/paZExWV27JKAMKtBBMVLTCwN6gk= [2] http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/installation/windows/ [3] http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/faq/ -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-website] LibreOffice website team inaugural conference call
Hi Michael, Ivan, all! I'd like to comment, here, since I don't like the term "leaders" in the website case. Well, there had been an official request to the SC for dedicated editing rights to ensure stability and harmonization (and some more ideas) of the website. The SC came to the conclusion that it'll be helpful to look at different aspects as well - and to ensure collaboration among the community to provide different (I call them) contact persons instead of having all the load on one pair of shoulders, only. So, for a trial period of two months, a preceding proposal on the steering discuss list, had been confirmed. My fault seemed to be, that I underestimated the perceived importance of this decision - I'm sorry for that (time was always fed up, grrr). My aim was to draft some wiki pages (with that team), so that others know where to start, how to cooperate, how to provide feedback (by the way, the latter page exists since some days). And I'd like to help with the the UX of the page, and usually I do this by commenting whether proposals might work well. But leaders, well, this might sound a bit bold :-) The SC meeting minutes state "This team should act as some kind of catalyst, guiding people by giving advice instead of taking control, so that people are encouraged to join the website team." If some of you missed the SC conference call recording [1], here it is. Website topics start 23:10 mins, the discussion on how we'll understand the team's work is at 33:50. At the end - it is about to provide a good working, looking and helpful website. Maybe this is one of the misunderstandings we've (all) run into - so maybe it helps to clarify the situation a bit. Well, I'm looking forward to the call (time seems good for me)! Enjoy your day! Christoph [1] http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Talkyoo-537138-2011-01-13-1292638.mp3 [2] http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/TDF/Steering_Committee_Meetings#Minutes_2011-01-13 Am Donnerstag, den 20.01.2011, 13:44 +0930 schrieb Michael Wheatland: > One aspect that this entails is definition of scope and setting up > teams to > manage these resources. There has been unhappiness at the designation > of > leaders by the SC without any consultation with the team involved. > David and > I have discussed this at length and we see, as I hope others see, that > we > need more scope and definition about our responsibilities. This is not > to > disregard the SC statement about the leaders, but the first action of > these > SC assigned leaders was to unify the team, get consensus amongst the > team > regarding sub-projects and better define the people coordinating these > groups. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-website] Back to top link for all pages (was: Current Website)
Hi Christian, *, Am 20.01.2011 01:38, schrieb Christian Lohmaier: Hi Klaus-Jürgen, *, On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 8:04 AM, klaus-jürgen weghorn ol wrote: Am 13.01.2011 21:48, schrieb Christian Lohmaier: On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 3:21 PM, klaus-jürgen weghorn ol wrote: ["back to top" link like on the limesurvey site] And if so, at what position? Lower right as limesurvey site? I think the position is quite good. It is moved away from the text but will follow if you change the width of your browser. I added it to the pumbaa site as a demo - what do you think? http://pumbaa.documentfoundation.org:7780/ (scroll down a little, the link will appear) If your monitor is too big and display the whole page at once, try http://pumbaa.documentfoundation.org:7780/get-help/mailing-lists/ - that one is longer .-)) I like it, thanks. It's an improvement in handling for me. First I thought that it is a little bit small especially on a wide display. But after scrolling more sites I think it is as big as it should be. Grüße k-j -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
RE: [libreoffice-website] [Drupal] The road ahead and missed opportunities
Good points (as always), Christoph! This is exactly what we expect from SC: Know the pulse of the community and guide any effort. Tailoring by SC is essential. I know I read the "bare act" from CMMI and PMBOK, but that's not how we should/would be applying it. Any corporate project and community project would differ. We know that. Even within the corporate world also the implementation is not that strict. We also know that. :) Any implementation must be tempered with realistic assessment of how comfortable the target user would be. So the idea is not to build an ivory tower and believe everyone will be happy living there. The "Requirement Elicitation" phase will take care of the actual needs (and unmet needs that new tools can achieve). Just think why develop LibO when OOo is already there for the same user class. Is it the act of defiance of a few misfits at Oracle, who were thrown out for being uncooperative? No I'd like to believe it was for a higher purpose; a long-term vision. When the project is driven with loftier principles, it is supposed to yield a superior result. It's the same thing with the website too! And again repeating myself, I am CMS-neutral. The requirement elicitation from stakeholders has nothing to do with what CMS is used. > Mmh, maybe I've missed that - but what would be one of the solutions you > have in mind? Actually I used YOUR post at the mail list to suggest a possible solution. It's not a ready-made module from any CMS, BTW. And this very case illustrates the point: First I missed your post, and had to actually Google all your posts and dredge through each post. When I found the right one (BUT under a wrong title), I put up a suggestion. Then it was SC's turn to miss that. Even to dig it up would be an effort now. How long do we carry on with this farce? The mail list is like throwing words in the wind. or tunneling in sand. Everything is lost almost instantaneously. So are you convinced now? It is the "ease of offline access" vs. "searchability, collation of ideas, permanence". Pick one. Or the other three. > What I've experienced in the last years was, that the most challenges > are in the communities that start to grow - for example in countries > where education is still a challenge (and LibreOffice a key). Less > reliable power connections, almost no Internet connection, ... On the > other hand, LibreOffice has some real chances to grow there and improve > people's life. > Okay, just an example - but such constraints make it really interesting > to identify most requirements, because the workflows are "dictated" by > external circumstances. The magic is and will be, to bring that > together. > > To come back to the previous question, I think that mailing list have > their drawbacks - absolutely agreed. But I think they are one valid part > of the solution. I find that a little strange: We care about a few kBs for the contributors. A dropped line is not a big catastrophe. It's only a mail list, where a missed mail is as good as gone anyway. Compared to number of contributors, the number of users is multifold. Each user is facing exactly the same internet problem. And he has to download several hundred MBs each time over low bandwidths. The consequence of broken link is catastrophic. And yet LibO requires full download for each version. Immediately after taking over, Oracle made OOo upgradable. Oracle cares about this. We don't. We pander to the contributors instead. How much time was devoted to making LibO upgradable with patches? And it serves to block out the new tools. (No offense.) > > > I am not a web site expert, but I am a member of the SC and in addition > > > I am the one coordinating marketing (you might complain about this, but > > > I got the trust of the founders based on seven years of activity inside > > > the OOo community). In order to approve an approach, you have to "sell" > > > it before even starting to work at it. > > > > Well, note that the mail lists cannot distinguish between "approved" tasks, > > "unautorized" tasks and "new proposals". > > Further, within an approved project, you cannot control each and every > > aspect that is proposed. > > This is an inherent weakness of mail list. > > Mmmh, is that tied to mailing list? When thinking about what I've > experienced so far, it is easy to "break" any tool :-) The more people > participate, the earlier it will happen. Oh, "more people", seems a > reasonable thought ... Let me explain: When someone (from a large pool of volunteers) posts a mail- 1. He may not be talking about an SC-approved "project" 2. He may be proposing something altogether new, which has an impact on policy. 3. he may be planning out the implementation in line with an SC-approved project 4. His proposal may violate/transgress our code of conduct In this chatter, any deviation from SC's goals/policies cannot be easily spotted or regulated. SC will be reduced to censuri
Re: [libreoffice-website] LibreOffice website team inaugural conference call
Am Donnerstag, den 20.01.2011, 13:03 +0800 schrieb David Nelson: > And when we hold the confcall, I *implore* you *all* to desist from > recriminations and blame and, instead, to focus on solutions for the > future that will gain the satisfaction and commitment of the greatest > number. ++1 > My 2 cents. ;-) Look rather like 2 EUR (or any other currency you want to put in here) ;-) Cheers, Christoph -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-website] LibreOffice website team inaugural conference call
Hi, :-) On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 12:28, Michael Wheatland wrote: > There seems to be a consensus for the conference call. > Is everybody happy if I close the poll and we select Friday 21 January @ 5pm > GMT? Seems OK to me. David Nelson -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-website] LibreOffice website team inaugural conference call
Hi, :-) @Ivan: I suggest you sign-up for this one, Ivan: http://doodle.com/wzy78i52av4h6din @Michael: Zennn... On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 12:14, Michael Wheatland wrote: > David and myself agree that the best way forward is for the website team to > stand up together as a grass roots united community team. I think it would be good to tone down our language quite a bit. ;-) I am for seeking consensus and looking for a way to address everyone's reasonable desires and concerns. However, I do fully support the goals and policies of the SC, and I am not for any kind of disruptive situation within the project. I want to see some good communication between us all, to see what *positive* ways forward we can find, which must then be submitted to the SC for discussion and approval/disapproval. > One aspect that this entails is definition of scope and setting up teams to > manage these resources. There has been unhappiness at the designation of > leaders by the SC without any consultation with the team involved. David and > I have discussed this at length and we see, as I hope others see, that we > need more scope and definition about our responsibilities. I think it will be good if we all discuss solutions that will achieve consensus among the greatest number. But, for me, those solutions have to tie-in with the overall goals and policies of the LibreOffice project, which is currently represented by the SC (and will, at a future date, be personified by the BoD and other institutions covered in the community bylaws). My experience has shown me that the SC members are quite open to proposals, as long as those proposals are considered beneficial to the project as a whole. It is up to us to be convincing and constructive in our communication - not conflictual and emotional. If we approach things in the right way, then I think we would stand an excellent chance of getting some worthwhile and interesting ideas approved. But let's everyone of us tone down the language a lot. We will ultimately achieve much more that way. And when we hold the confcall, I *implore* you *all* to desist from recriminations and blame and, instead, to focus on solutions for the future that will gain the satisfaction and commitment of the greatest number. My 2 cents. ;-) David Nelson -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-website] LibreOffice website team inaugural conference call
There seems to be a consensus for the conference call. Is everybody happy if I close the poll and we select Friday 21 January @ 5pm GMT? Of the people who have expressed interest in coming along only Narayan is not able to make it at that time. I already have some notes from him regarding discussions he wishes to initiate. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-website] LibreOffice website team inaugural conference call
On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 12:29 PM, Ivan M. wrote: > Hi Michael, David, all, > > On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 10:42 PM, Michael Wheatland > wrote: > > David Nelson and myself are organising the inaugural LibreOffice website > > team conference call. > > > > To vote on the time please visit: http://doodle.com/wzy78i52av4h6din > > Is this the same meeting as the one we already created a Doodle poll > for at [1], or is it something different altogether (in which case, is > the other meeting off?) > > > In the call we expect to discuss website team leadership, nomination of > team > > leaders, coordination of tasks and the way forward for the website team > and > > the developments we are responsible for. > > Hasn't the nomination of team leaders already been done by the SC? I > was hoping we could finally move forward, but another round of > nominations and discussions is going to delay things further (that > said, I think confcalls are good opportunities to make progress as > long as suitable provisions are made for those who can't attend). > > If the SC is OK with this, no problem. However, the last thing I want > is for us to first delay by revisiting previous decisions only to have > them invalidated by the SC which will cause further delays. I'm not > against short term delays for long term gains if this is an > opportunity to move forward (which I hope it is) now that the new > website theme and initial content are up and running, but I also want > to make sure that we won't be wasting time. > > We will not be wasting time. The website team as a whole has been segregated by the communication faults that have occurred. David and myself agree that the best way forward is for the website team to stand up together as a grass roots united community team. Demonstrate that we have the skills required to build the website into a community tool and build trust with the whole community that we listen to everyone. One aspect that this entails is definition of scope and setting up teams to manage these resources. There has been unhappiness at the designation of leaders by the SC without any consultation with the team involved. David and I have discussed this at length and we see, as I hope others see, that we need more scope and definition about our responsibilities. This is not to disregard the SC statement about the leaders, but the first action of these SC assigned leaders was to unify the team, get consensus amongst the team regarding sub-projects and better define the people coordinating these groups. The SC is precisely that, a steering body, it is the community which finally decides where this project ends up by way of positive contribution, collaboration and communication. We will not be wasting time, we will be (hopefully) uniting the great talents that we have at our disposal, generating trust and defining the roadmap for the website team instead of the chaos theory coordination that has occurred thus far. I can't see any circumstances where this does not strongly benefit our team and the community as a whole. Thanks for your concern, and it is this exact reason that we need this conference call, to clarify all of these issues and to take responsibility for the website team's resources. Michael Wheatland -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-website] LibreOffice website team inaugural conference call
Hi Michael, David, all, On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 10:42 PM, Michael Wheatland wrote: > David Nelson and myself are organising the inaugural LibreOffice website > team conference call. > > To vote on the time please visit: http://doodle.com/wzy78i52av4h6din Is this the same meeting as the one we already created a Doodle poll for at [1], or is it something different altogether (in which case, is the other meeting off?) > In the call we expect to discuss website team leadership, nomination of team > leaders, coordination of tasks and the way forward for the website team and > the developments we are responsible for. Hasn't the nomination of team leaders already been done by the SC? I was hoping we could finally move forward, but another round of nominations and discussions is going to delay things further (that said, I think confcalls are good opportunities to make progress as long as suitable provisions are made for those who can't attend). If the SC is OK with this, no problem. However, the last thing I want is for us to first delay by revisiting previous decisions only to have them invalidated by the SC which will cause further delays. I'm not against short term delays for long term gains if this is an opportunity to move forward (which I hope it is) now that the new website theme and initial content are up and running, but I also want to make sure that we won't be wasting time. Regards, Ivan. [1] http://www.doodle.com/py7e7fku8p5v9v92 -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-website] Features screeshots for the website
Hi Sophie, :-) On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 01:18, Sophie Gautier wrote: > Where can I find what has been done? > Is it LibO only or OOo too > Who have work on it, is there still work needed? > What is the deadline? All current screenshots can be found at: https://www.libreoffice.org/admin/assets/ Look in the EN-Project_images directory. But there are none of the new features as such. I guess we're only looking at new features in LibO. Deadline: when you want, when you can. Submission: I suggest you mail them to me and I will file them at a logical place in the directory tree structure. Or else post them under "EN-Project_images/NewFeatures", which you will have to create beforehand... David Nelson -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: [Drupal] The road ahead and missed opportunities
Hi, :-) Wow! What a debate! I second what Michael has just posted. Everyone interested in working on the libreoffice.org website, and in discussing ideas about website team organization, and in examining possible proposals to develop for submission to the SC should be there at the website team conference call. My hope is that we are going to move forward past the stage of recriminations, and look forward to how to organize ourselves and communicate better in the future. But I'd just like to post something that I just wrote in another thread: "There is going to be a challenging process of arbitration and mindset education between the website team and the SC, and I'm under no illusion that we'll succeed in consensus between everyone. We are going to going to have to establish exactly where the role of the website team really starts and ends. It's going to be important to remember that the website team is there to service the LibreOffice project's website needs, and that it is not there to become a separate community by itself, nor to take on the roles of other areas of the project such as marketing and SC/BoD policy-making. People who want to influence those areas of the project are going to have to actively involve themselves in those particular teams. But I think the website team can also learn to communicate more successfully and to raise awareness about the opportunities for community cultivation and building that can be offered by an innovative Web presence. And we would have to be able to tangibly demonstrate those opportunities, which is might require a certain amount of work done on a purely-prospective basis, with no guarantee of actual uptake. Meritocracy and overall consensus will have to be respected. Patience and a degree of far-sightedness will be necessary, as will the ability to accept compromise. Adhesion to the LibreOffice project's overall goals is needed from every member if we are to be part of a peaceful, successful community. But I do believe that we can arrive at solutions that take account of reasonable wishes and ambitions. All the above is my personal 2 cents. We'll have plenty to talk about." I think all the above has relevance for the preceding discussion in this thread. David Nelson -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-website] L10n mailing list and l10n wiki link on the website
Hi Sophie, :-) On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 23:33, Erich Christian wrote: >> I've admin rights for the FR project, are you sure I need to create >> another account? My mistake, sorry, I didn't look carefully enough. > Currently I need to add the l10n address because there is no entry point for > them on the international website. We could IRC over the weekend if you like? David Nelson -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-website] LibreOffice website team inaugural conference call
Hi, :-) On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 21:20, Karl-Heinz Gödderz wrote: > David Nelson schrieb: >> Micheal and I (or whoever else is appointed to leadership/coordination >> roles) will certainly liaise closely and regularly with the SC during >> SC confcalls, so that there are *no* communications failures. >> > I didn't think about communication failures but about attitudes/mindsets. Well, there is going to be a challenging process of arbitration and mindset education between the website team and the SC, and I'm under no illusion that we'll succeed in consensus between everyone. We are going to going to have to establish exactly where the role of the website team really starts and ends. It's going to be important to remember that the website team is there to service the LibreOffice project's website needs, and that it is not there to become a separate community by itself, nor to take on the roles of other areas of the project such as marketing and SC/BoD policy-making. People who want to influence those areas of the project are going to have to actively involve themselves in those particular teams. But I think the website team can also learn to communicate more successfully and to raise awareness about the opportunities for community cultivation and building that can be offered by an innovative Web presence. And we would have to be able to tangibly demonstrate those opportunities, which is might require a certain amount of work done on a purely-prospective basis, with no guarantee of actual uptake. Meritocracy and overall consensus will have to be respected. Patience and a degree of far-sightedness will be necessary, as will the ability to accept compromise. Adhesion to the LibreOffice project's overall goals is needed from every member if we are to be part of a peaceful, successful community. But I do believe that we can arrive at solutions that take account of reasonable wishes and ambitions. All the above is my personal 2 cents. We'll have plenty to talk about. David Nelson -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: [Drupal] The road ahead and missed opportunities
On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 12:58 AM, drew wrote: > This email is to the Drupal team, who all that is I am not sure. > > Guys I have my problems with the SC members and I am leaving because of > it, perhaps not quick enough. > > What you guys are talking about now however is just wrong - you need to > stop, no more discussions, just stop and walk away - there is no good > for anyone that can come from this. > > Please just let it go. > > Sincerely, > > Drew Drew, David and myself are organising the inaugural phone conference for the website team. Clearly there are people, including yourself who wish to contribute some amazing ideas and developments to the LibreOffice project. We hope that this Conference call will clear the way for effective collaboration and build some trust between all of the members involved. Communication is key, and we are all working towards the same goals. I encourage you to attend or even just listen to the conference call to ease your mind and hopefully get you back on board. Thanks, Michael Wheatland -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-website] LibreOffice website team inaugural conference call
Hi, :-) On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 22:22, Michael Wheatland wrote: >> On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 11:24 PM, Narayan Aras >> wrote: >> >> Would it be possible to record the call and post a MP3 (with the MoMs) so >> the absentees can listen in later? >> > We will be organising the use of the current conference call technology. As > I understand it the audio can be downloaded and posted to the wiki as occurs > with the Marketing and Documentation conference calls. > Maybe David can shed some light on how this is done. Hopefully, we'll be using Talkyoo. In that case, the call will be recorded, and Florian will afterwards put the recorded mp3 on the wiki. Then we'll set up a minutes page on the website team's portion of the wiki and post a link to it there, so that people can download it. David Nelson -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[libreoffice-website] Back to top link for all pages (was: Current Website)
Hi Klaus-Jürgen, *, On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 8:04 AM, klaus-jürgen weghorn ol wrote: > Am 13.01.2011 21:48, schrieb Christian Lohmaier: >> On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 3:21 PM, klaus-jürgen weghorn ol >> wrote: >>> ["back to top" link like on the limesurvey site] >> And if so, at what position? >> Lower right as limesurvey site? > > I think the position is quite good. It is moved away from the text but will > follow if you change the width of your browser. I added it to the pumbaa site as a demo - what do you think? http://pumbaa.documentfoundation.org:7780/ (scroll down a little, the link will appear) If your monitor is too big and display the whole page at once, try http://pumbaa.documentfoundation.org:7780/get-help/mailing-lists/ - that one is longer .-)) ciao Christian -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: [tdf-discuss] [contribution] Screenshots urgently needed!
Hi Mark, thanks for stepping in :-) As you didn't remove the old replies below your posting, the answer to some of your questions is already attached to your mail ;-) Mark Morin schrieb: [...] Should I attach them to a response to this list or some other address? As the list doesn't allow attachments, sending them here will not lead to any positive result ;-) Please upload them to the wiki or send them directly to David Nelson (mail address in the posting linked from the bottom [1]) What is the preferred format (png, jpg, gif, etc.)? And I know this has been stated before but what are the desired specs (dpi and dimensions)? Please read below... [...] Christoph Noack wrote: Some screenshots are still missing ... Michael (if I remember correctly) added some ideas how to present some of the features. http://www.libreoffice.org/download/new-features-and-fixes/ And, David once mentioned how he did the screenshots, so please have a look at the requirements - this really helps to make the site look consistent (for the features, please pick the things that apply). a) Take them under Ubuntu Linux, using the Ambiance theme, with *no* visual effects. b) Take the *window only* with the window frame - not the whole desktop. c) 1000px wide by 750px tall - you can use Screen Ruler to accurately size the window. e) Anything up to a dozen good shots from each app is what I'm hoping to accumulate in each app, demo the key features: in Writer, tables, indexes, etc. I'm sure you see what I mean f) The file you use for taking the screenshot should ideally be called "sample.odt" (or whatever extension) The original call for screenshots is here: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/msg01968.html It has been about screenshots for the applications (David already worked on them), but the requirements should be the same. Best regards Bernhard -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
RE: [libreoffice-website] [Drupal] The road ahead and missed opportunities
Hi Narayan, I just finished reading the thread, and I'd like to come back to your mail. You've stated some project and development fundamentals, and that is something I'm very interested in ... how to tailer such methods and tools. And if I got it right, you as well :-) Am Mittwoch, den 19.01.2011, 14:52 +0530 schrieb Narayan Aras: > Hi Italo, > > > Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2011 13:13:55 +0100 > > From: italo.vign...@gmail.com > > To: website@libreoffice.org > > Subject: Re: [libreoffice-website] [Drupal] The road ahead and missed > > opportunities > > [...] > BTW I have consistently maintained that mail lists are not suitable to > capture such matters. > There are easy solutions available. But SC is not interested. [...] Mmh, maybe I've missed that - but what would be one of the solutions you have in mind? One of the specifics of the settled parts of the community is, that many of the activities are spread among different places. Much of the work is even done offline, so the mailing list - although having some drawbacks - has always been a rather reliable connection between all the people. What I've experienced in the last years was, that the most challenges are in the communities that start to grow - for example in countries where education is still a challenge (and LibreOffice a key). Less reliable power connections, almost no Internet connection, ... On the other hand, LibreOffice has some real chances to grow there and improve people's life. Okay, just an example - but such constraints make it really interesting to identify most requirements, because the workflows are "dictated" by external circumstances. The magic is and will be, to bring that together. To come back to the previous question, I think that mailing list have their drawbacks - absolutely agreed. But I think they are one valid part of the solution. > > I am not a web site expert, but I am a member of the SC and in addition > > I am the one coordinating marketing (you might complain about this, but > > I got the trust of the founders based on seven years of activity inside > > the OOo community). In order to approve an approach, you have to "sell" > > it before even starting to work at it. > > Well, note that the mail lists cannot distinguish between "approved" tasks, > "unautorized" tasks and "new proposals". > Further, within an approved project, you cannot control each and every aspect > that is proposed. > This is an inherent weakness of mail list. Mmmh, is that tied to mailing list? When thinking about what I've experienced so far, it is easy to "break" any tool :-) The more people participate, the earlier it will happen. Oh, "more people", seems a reasonable thought ... Referring to what Italo said, I'm sure he didn't mean to formally "approve" something - in this context. Your postings reveal, at least I think so, that you are very familiar with the business world. If you set up a project, it is usually proposed to (how to say that in English?) provide acceptance criteria / project agreement between the supplier and customer (CMMI *g*). Having that, it is easy for both parties to verify the project delivery ... and to roll-out the newly developed system/software/service. The agreement helps (among requirements, goals, scope ... you know such stuff) to plan your project in advance, to calculate the costs, allocate resources. I think that works very very well for such organizations. What I'm curious about, whether this works within an open-source project. With such a huge (and incredibly interesting) task like project infrastructure, you have hundreds of individual contributors ... whom to ask whether the system fits to their needs? Or, how can they tell if not? What Italo referred to, is to get some buy-in (interest / demand / ...) in advance - within the community. If they like it, a system will be used ... so think of it like the preparation of the "social" roll-out plan. I think those who took part in any larger volunteer community, can state some "CMMI" like essentials to bring ideas forward. It's different to the business world. Okay, this was a bit oversimplified - this is also true for large organizations (most large IT projects fail, because users are resistant against the changes). But let's keep the community topic alive :-) [...] > That is at the root of all trouble: > 1. SC does not make/approve/drive projects with WBS. I think the SC drives the things that are vital for getting the foundation done - this is the basis of many upcoming activities (driven by the community). Although you might think of a very detailed WBS, here is what currently is used ... http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/TDF/Work_Items And, are you sure that initiating LibreOffice, providing build and deployment infrastructure, identifying trademarks, managing artwork, setting up the initial infrastructure, communicating with the press, inviting hundreds of people to join, managing volunteer availability ... was done without
Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: [tdf-discuss] [contribution] Screenshots urgently needed!
Thanks for the link. I was using the link in "linux magazine" to the new features (from what looks like one of "our" sites) and was wondering how to capture screen shots of the listed features. This list is much more specific. I suppose I should have paid better attention to the original thread :-[ Don't get me wrong, I am very impressed with the work done on LibreOffice. I had been almost exclusively a Micro$oft user (who occasionally used OpenOffice) and am switching over to LO. I'll start working on screen shots tonight (it's almost 6 pm here now). Should I attach them to a response to this list or some other address? What is the preferred format (png, jpg, gif, etc.)? And I know this has been stated before but what are the desired specs (dpi and dimensions)? I know all that is wanted is the working window. One problem I'm having with the transition from MS to LO is in Impress. This may be the wrong forum to ask but: * is there any way to create a stand alone slide show (that can run whether or not the user has LO installed? * The export to SWF may be the attempt to address this question but the export function seems to strip out the audio portion as well as the preset transitions (is this a bug?) mark On 01/19/2011 05:06 PM, Christoph Noack wrote: > Hi Mark! > > Thanks for the offer :-) > > Am Mittwoch, den 19.01.2011, 16:46 -0500 schrieb Mark Morin: > If you could identify specifically which new features need screen shots, > I can try to provide some. > > > You'll find a list of the new features and some ideas for screenshots on > > the LibreOffice website: > > http://www.libreoffice.org/download/new-features-and-fixes/ > > As reflected in today's "linux magazine" > (http://www.linux-mag.com/id/7943?hq_e=el&hq_m=1158951&hq_l=3&hq_v=c9af7a3724) > the new features don't really seem all that impressive. > > > Well, it depends on the point-of-view, I'd say. A crowd of new > > developers was guided by a few "old stagers", having a new working > > environment (different chat, mailing list, source code repository, > > building environment, ...) and put in some features and improvements. > > > Many of the things are "under the hood", e.g. the hard work to translate > > many comments from (still) German to English, so that even more > > developers can join more easily. > > > Next, the given release had been localized and QA'd without some of the > > tools that have been available before (they are working on it...). And > > all the contributors will provide a release that is stable and mature to > > please Linux distributions and corporate users. > > > So from my point-of-view, for a very first release, this has been an > > amazing work! Although it will be essential to move on, and to provide > > something that "just works" for the user. For sure ... > > > What do you say? > > > Cheers, > > Christoph > > > On 1/19/2011 2:46 PM, sophie wrote: > >>> Hi all, > >>> > >>> Oh, it's still really great to see how much support an urgent request > >>> for the website is considered!!! > >>> > >>> So, I take the task and will deliver the screen shots may be the day > >>> after tomorrow. If you want to help, just go on on this thread. > >>> This is still your chance to contribute, it's not difficult, David has > >>> detailed everything, see bellow. > >>> > >>> > >>> Kind regards > >>> Sophie > >>> > >>> > >>> On 19/01/2011 20:48, sophie wrote: > Hi all, > > Does anybody have work on this? > Where can I find the screen shots, what still needs to be done? > What is the deadline > > Thanks in advance > Kind regards > Sophie > > On 19/01/2011 08:54, Bernhard Dippold wrote: > > Hi all! > > > > This is an opportunity for community members interested in spending > > some time for LibreOffice, but didn't know exactly how: > > > > Please take screenshots from the new features in LibreOffice we can > > add to the features list at the website. > > > > Upload them to the wiki and tell us here which feature you are > > working on at the moment, so we can avoid double work. > > > > Here is Christoph's mail containing details (sent to the design and > > website list): > > > > Christoph Noack wrote: > >> Hi all, > >> > >> there is still a small gap to fill - could anybody please jump > in and > >> help to populate the "new features" site? Some screenshots are > still > >> missing ... Michael (if I remember correctly) added some ideas > how to > >> present some of the features. > >> > >> http://www.libreoffice.org/download/new-features-and-fixes/ > >> > >> And, David once mentioned how he did the screenshots, so please > have a > >> look at the requirements - this really helps to make the site look > >> consistent (for the features, please pick the things that apply). > >> > a) Take them under Ubuntu Linux, using the Ambiance theme, >
Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: [tdf-discuss] [contribution] Screenshots urgently needed!
Hi Mark! Thanks for the offer :-) Am Mittwoch, den 19.01.2011, 16:46 -0500 schrieb Mark Morin: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA1 > > If you could identify specifically which new features need screen shots, > I can try to provide some. You'll find a list of the new features and some ideas for screenshots on the LibreOffice website: http://www.libreoffice.org/download/new-features-and-fixes/ > As reflected in today's "linux magazine" > (http://www.linux-mag.com/id/7943?hq_e=el&hq_m=1158951&hq_l=3&hq_v=c9af7a3724) > the new features don't really seem all that impressive. Well, it depends on the point-of-view, I'd say. A crowd of new developers was guided by a few "old stagers", having a new working environment (different chat, mailing list, source code repository, building environment, ...) and put in some features and improvements. Many of the things are "under the hood", e.g. the hard work to translate many comments from (still) German to English, so that even more developers can join more easily. Next, the given release had been localized and QA'd without some of the tools that have been available before (they are working on it...). And all the contributors will provide a release that is stable and mature to please Linux distributions and corporate users. So from my point-of-view, for a very first release, this has been an amazing work! Although it will be essential to move on, and to provide something that "just works" for the user. For sure ... What do you say? Cheers, Christoph > On 1/19/2011 2:46 PM, sophie wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > Oh, it's still really great to see how much support an urgent request > > for the website is considered!!! > > > > So, I take the task and will deliver the screen shots may be the day > > after tomorrow. If you want to help, just go on on this thread. > > This is still your chance to contribute, it's not difficult, David has > > detailed everything, see bellow. > > > > > > Kind regards > > Sophie > > > > > > On 19/01/2011 20:48, sophie wrote: > >> Hi all, > >> > >> Does anybody have work on this? > >> Where can I find the screen shots, what still needs to be done? > >> What is the deadline > >> > >> Thanks in advance > >> Kind regards > >> Sophie > >> > >> On 19/01/2011 08:54, Bernhard Dippold wrote: > >>> Hi all! > >>> > >>> This is an opportunity for community members interested in spending > >>> some time for LibreOffice, but didn't know exactly how: > >>> > >>> Please take screenshots from the new features in LibreOffice we can > >>> add to the features list at the website. > >>> > >>> Upload them to the wiki and tell us here which feature you are > >>> working on at the moment, so we can avoid double work. > >>> > >>> Here is Christoph's mail containing details (sent to the design and > >>> website list): > >>> > >>> Christoph Noack wrote: > Hi all, > > there is still a small gap to fill - could anybody please jump in and > help to populate the "new features" site? Some screenshots are still > missing ... Michael (if I remember correctly) added some ideas how to > present some of the features. > > http://www.libreoffice.org/download/new-features-and-fixes/ > > And, David once mentioned how he did the screenshots, so please have a > look at the requirements - this really helps to make the site look > consistent (for the features, please pick the things that apply). > > > > a) Take them under Ubuntu Linux, using the Ambiance theme, with *no* > > > visual effects. > > > > > > b) Take the *window only* with the window frame - not the whole > > > desktop. > > > > > > c) 1000px wide by 750px tall - you can use Screen Ruler to > > accurately > > > size the window. > > > > > > e) Anything up to a dozen good shots from each app is what I'm > > hoping > > > to accumulate in each app, demo the key features: in Writer, > > > tables, indexes, etc. I'm sure you see what I mean > > > > > > f) The file you use for taking the screenshot should ideally be > > called > > > "sample.odt" (or whatever extension) > Thanks a lot! > > Cheers > >>> > > >>> > Christoph > >>> > >>> Best regards > >>> > >>> Bernhard > >>> > >> > > > > > -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (MingW32) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ > > iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJNN1vRAAoJEKQMSgQFvQAbvvQH/2HkR3OYZ8DTVtWipMFP34JG > KAli/DzADDgEsZuba0Fl43uB81dq/HuJzYsQCXEZsW5dN40FjPBAuuEfNBTDGN3g > 1JlZU2G1Ua2IBQ3Fsjce60fuazXKm8oyqrL/y5xhPdl8EEW5MAB6iqlgBb+r7j6O > vOjuC/IuYHBlpbZVYgU4F1xrPfghUL7cdSVozPLe6nzFwdOJneXfmYXv8zV4gYCy > ymzZFq+3bbkfFUuoGeafMMpoITj+BbkdFlMC4FqOZj8QmdU37qJZr+qqlXnhV02O > eoTIQJgUUwprR+rX7p2DwXEdiIihC1ObLeb532nkOpjlEemNz6bi8mqDHQriR4U= > =VlBy > -END PGP SIGNATURE- > -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://lista
Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: [tdf-discuss] [contribution] Screenshots urgently needed!
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 If you could identify specifically which new features need screen shots, I can try to provide some. As reflected in today's "linux magazine" (http://www.linux-mag.com/id/7943?hq_e=el&hq_m=1158951&hq_l=3&hq_v=c9af7a3724) the new features don't really seem all that impressive. mark On 1/19/2011 2:46 PM, sophie wrote: > Hi all, > > Oh, it's still really great to see how much support an urgent request > for the website is considered!!! > > So, I take the task and will deliver the screen shots may be the day > after tomorrow. If you want to help, just go on on this thread. > This is still your chance to contribute, it's not difficult, David has > detailed everything, see bellow. > > > Kind regards > Sophie > > > On 19/01/2011 20:48, sophie wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> Does anybody have work on this? >> Where can I find the screen shots, what still needs to be done? >> What is the deadline >> >> Thanks in advance >> Kind regards >> Sophie >> >> On 19/01/2011 08:54, Bernhard Dippold wrote: >>> Hi all! >>> >>> This is an opportunity for community members interested in spending >>> some time for LibreOffice, but didn't know exactly how: >>> >>> Please take screenshots from the new features in LibreOffice we can >>> add to the features list at the website. >>> >>> Upload them to the wiki and tell us here which feature you are >>> working on at the moment, so we can avoid double work. >>> >>> Here is Christoph's mail containing details (sent to the design and >>> website list): >>> >>> Christoph Noack wrote: Hi all, there is still a small gap to fill - could anybody please jump in and help to populate the "new features" site? Some screenshots are still missing ... Michael (if I remember correctly) added some ideas how to present some of the features. http://www.libreoffice.org/download/new-features-and-fixes/ And, David once mentioned how he did the screenshots, so please have a look at the requirements - this really helps to make the site look consistent (for the features, please pick the things that apply). > > a) Take them under Ubuntu Linux, using the Ambiance theme, with *no* > > visual effects. > > > > b) Take the *window only* with the window frame - not the whole > > desktop. > > > > c) 1000px wide by 750px tall - you can use Screen Ruler to > accurately > > size the window. > > > > e) Anything up to a dozen good shots from each app is what I'm > hoping > > to accumulate in each app, demo the key features: in Writer, > > tables, indexes, etc. I'm sure you see what I mean > > > > f) The file you use for taking the screenshot should ideally be > called > > "sample.odt" (or whatever extension) Thanks a lot! Cheers >>> > >>> > Christoph >>> >>> Best regards >>> >>> Bernhard >>> >> > > -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJNN1vRAAoJEKQMSgQFvQAbvvQH/2HkR3OYZ8DTVtWipMFP34JG KAli/DzADDgEsZuba0Fl43uB81dq/HuJzYsQCXEZsW5dN40FjPBAuuEfNBTDGN3g 1JlZU2G1Ua2IBQ3Fsjce60fuazXKm8oyqrL/y5xhPdl8EEW5MAB6iqlgBb+r7j6O vOjuC/IuYHBlpbZVYgU4F1xrPfghUL7cdSVozPLe6nzFwdOJneXfmYXv8zV4gYCy ymzZFq+3bbkfFUuoGeafMMpoITj+BbkdFlMC4FqOZj8QmdU37qJZr+qqlXnhV02O eoTIQJgUUwprR+rX7p2DwXEdiIihC1ObLeb532nkOpjlEemNz6bi8mqDHQriR4U= =VlBy -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: Wrong mail-archive.com URLs in header
Hi Christian, Am 19.01.2011 21:37, schrieb Christian Lohmaier: Hi *, On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 12:27 AM, Christian Lohmaier wrote: On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 12:06 AM, Christian Lohmaier wrote: [...] Since nobody provides the link (the one Klaus-Jürgen sent was not working for me... a problem at mail-archive.com, perhaps?), Could be a bug - I'll investigate and forward to mail-archive.com Was a bug on our end - the email-address wasn't properly extracted, thus sometimes it did hash the list-address as or "user also added name " instead of the plain website@libreoffice.org one and hence the URL was wrong. All lists are affected. Obviously it isn't possible to fix the messages with the broken URLs, but from now on all mails should carry valid URLs. Thanks for fixing the issue. -- Grüße k-j -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[libreoffice-website] Re: Wrong mail-archive.com URLs in header
Hi *, On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 12:27 AM, Christian Lohmaier wrote: > On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 12:06 AM, Christian Lohmaier > wrote: >>> [...] >>> Since nobody provides the link (the one Klaus-Jürgen sent was not >>> working for me... a problem at mail-archive.com, perhaps?), >> >> Could be a bug - I'll investigate and forward to mail-archive.com Was a bug on our end - the email-address wasn't properly extracted, thus sometimes it did hash the list-address as or "user also added name " instead of the plain website@libreoffice.org one and hence the URL was wrong. All lists are affected. Obviously it isn't possible to fix the messages with the broken URLs, but from now on all mails should carry valid URLs. ciao Christian -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: [Drupal] The road ahead and missed opportunities
Sorry - I really need to make one edit to my last email: On Wed, 2011-01-19 at 10:28 -0500, drew wrote: Guys I have my problems with decisions made by the SC members and I am leaving because of it, perhaps not quick enough, which I will pass on to them in a private email. - last mail to to this list and this one will need to be moderated it. //drew -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[libreoffice-website] Re: [tdf-discuss] [contribution] Screenshots urgently needed!
Hi all, Oh, it's still really great to see how much support an urgent request for the website is considered!!! So, I take the task and will deliver the screen shots may be the day after tomorrow. If you want to help, just go on on this thread. This is still your chance to contribute, it's not difficult, David has detailed everything, see bellow. Kind regards Sophie On 19/01/2011 20:48, sophie wrote: Hi all, Does anybody have work on this? Where can I find the screen shots, what still needs to be done? What is the deadline Thanks in advance Kind regards Sophie On 19/01/2011 08:54, Bernhard Dippold wrote: Hi all! This is an opportunity for community members interested in spending some time for LibreOffice, but didn't know exactly how: Please take screenshots from the new features in LibreOffice we can add to the features list at the website. Upload them to the wiki and tell us here which feature you are working on at the moment, so we can avoid double work. Here is Christoph's mail containing details (sent to the design and website list): Christoph Noack wrote: Hi all, there is still a small gap to fill - could anybody please jump in and help to populate the "new features" site? Some screenshots are still missing ... Michael (if I remember correctly) added some ideas how to present some of the features. http://www.libreoffice.org/download/new-features-and-fixes/ And, David once mentioned how he did the screenshots, so please have a look at the requirements - this really helps to make the site look consistent (for the features, please pick the things that apply). > a) Take them under Ubuntu Linux, using the Ambiance theme, with *no* > visual effects. > > b) Take the *window only* with the window frame - not the whole > desktop. > > c) 1000px wide by 750px tall - you can use Screen Ruler to accurately > size the window. > > e) Anything up to a dozen good shots from each app is what I'm hoping > to accumulate in each app, demo the key features: in Writer, > tables, indexes, etc. I'm sure you see what I mean > > f) The file you use for taking the screenshot should ideally be called > "sample.odt" (or whatever extension) Thanks a lot! Cheers > > Christoph Best regards Bernhard -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: [Drupal] The road ahead and missed opportunities
Hi *, first apologies for the harsh words in the previous mail - but I was really angry to see the same wrong statements over and over again. On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 7:17 PM, Marc Paré wrote: > Le 2011-01-19 10:04, Christian Lohmaier a écrit : > [...] >> There is no need for experienced silverstripe people because there is >> no need of fancy features yet. > > Sorry, I just thought that experienced Silverstripe people would be lending > a hand at helping the content contributors manage and work out the > formatting of their sites. Surely there is: But people don't need help. At least they did not request any. The only stuff where I had to help out with silverstripe-specific stuff is with translating the automatically generated pages like the download page, or the "go to the xy page" hover-titles. The slovenian team did make most use of this up to now. But there have been no requests regarding "I need this or that style, I would like to do this or that" that was specific to silverstripe. Minor bugs in the theme were reported and fixed along the way, but that's not a matter of the CMS, but with the CSS. So you don't need a team of experts in running silverstripe. > How many Silverstripe people do we have to help > out? Is there anyone on the Silverstripe actively helping NL content > contributors so that their sites look good at first landing? Well - this list is the point of contact - so when a team has problems, I expect they would ask for help. So no, there is no "hand-holding" them, as I don't think it is necessary. The biggest problem people have is finding the registration URL (that is hidden on purpose) > [...] I also believe that another member had commented that > going about it this way, deleting contributor content without consultation, > would perhaps dissuade more contribution. Yes, this was when David did jump in because after weeks after the SC's decision to go with silverstripe first (and thus weeks after the site was available for use on test.libreoffice.org) there was no visible progress on the content, despite the many requests for help on the list as well as in the conf-calls. David took his two-weeks effort to put content on the site all by himself basically, and yes, during that time he overhauled the site completely, did remove some of the stub sites other people had created in the meantime and indeed this irritated and also made a few angry. But in the end they understood the need for this. >> Again the same FUD again and again. Yes, Drupal is great, but within >> nearly two months (during the CMS requirements phase), all those >> knowledgeable people didn't manage to create something usable. That's >> why SC did vote to go with Silverstripe, with the possibility to >> revisit drupal a couple of months later. >> But instead of providing a working site with the basics, Drupal team >> started their "we conquer the world" crusade and that lead to the >> current statement to get a grip of the priorities that matter. > > I think if you re-read the start of the CMS search for LibO, you will find > that your answers to anyone making reference with Drupal was met with a > negative tone from you. Yes. Because I was always asking: Please show me a site where it works. And people did just respond: "Drupal is cool, has so many modules, you just have to configure it properly". Then I went again: But look, the editor on your demo doesn't even allow to create tables or links to other sites on the same page. And the reply again was. "Drupal is great, it can do this and much more, there are lots of people using it, you just need to configure it properly" And this in an endless iteration. > Feel free to re-read your posts. You had discounted > Drupal right from the start. No. I wanted to see it in action, as the demos that were available did suck. It is like that. The editor didn't provide even the most basic functionality. But people were praising drupal for its great features and you-can-do-anything-if-you-configure-it. But nobody did configure it. Instead four different drupal demo sites were setup, instead of working on one drupal site and turn that into a usable demo. So yes, I was negative about drupal from the very start, since what I saw didn't convince me at all. There were pepple earning money with drupal that praised drupal, but those people did "hide" behind "I have no time". And again: It wasn't much functionality I asked for. That's basically where "Drupal folkd don't listen" started. > It seems to me that most groups would want to look for a CMS that best fits > their needs, consult with their membership (in this case our website > membership) and test-try collaboratively different CMS sites to see how well > they work and fit with the community project. Sorry, but this is exactly what was done and suggested. I *asked* for demo sites that demonstrate the functionality. But the public (official, at least linked from the drupal site) demo did suck big time, as did tho
Re: [libreoffice-website] [Drupal] The road ahead and missed opportunities
2011/1/19 Charles Marcus > On 2011-01-19 12:13 PM, Sophie Gautier wrote: > > Do I have to claim any time that I'm in the SC or that I'm a founding > > member no, because coming to this project, you know who we are, and how > > it is organized. When you enter to a home, you know who lives there, > > this is the same, exactly here. > > Excuse me??? How exactly is anyone supposed to know this? Through osmosis? > > People who maintain some official capacity in the organization should be > *required* to make this known in their email signature when > communicating through official channels like these email lists. > Look here: http://www.documentfoundation.org/foundation/ and most of us, most of the time, have specific signatures. Charles (obviously not this time for me). > > -- > > Best regards, > > Charles > > -- > Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to > website+h...@libreoffice.org > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ > *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity *** > -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-website] [Drupal] The road ahead and missed opportunities
On 2011-01-19 12:13 PM, Sophie Gautier wrote: > Do I have to claim any time that I'm in the SC or that I'm a founding > member no, because coming to this project, you know who we are, and how > it is organized. When you enter to a home, you know who lives there, > this is the same, exactly here. Excuse me??? How exactly is anyone supposed to know this? Through osmosis? People who maintain some official capacity in the organization should be *required* to make this known in their email signature when communicating through official channels like these email lists. -- Best regards, Charles -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[libreoffice-website] Re: [Drupal] The road ahead and missed opportunities
Le 2011-01-19 10:28, drew a écrit : This email is to the Drupal team, who all that is I am not sure. Guys I have my problems with the SC members and I am leaving because of it, perhaps not quick enough. What you guys are talking about now however is just wrong - you need to stop, no more discussions, just stop and walk away - there is no good for anyone that can come from this. Please just let it go. Sincerely, Drew Thanks for the the advice. It has now stopped. Cheers Marc -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
RE: [libreoffice-website] [Drupal] The road ahead and missed opportunities
> >> For instance, the Italian association (I am the president) has a web > >> site which is never going to be officially connected to TDF and/or > >> LibreOffice. > > > > Even assuming that there are some independent sites on LibO, how does that > > fact impact our strategy? > > The users of that site are simply not OUR stakeholders. > > Wrong, they are extremely important as a stakeholder, because they are > advocating at local level. They are spreading the message, they are > promoting and supporting the software. I don't get it. You want to run an independent site for LibO, without even any crosslinks. Are you proposing any interfaces between the sites and/or communities? > > And fortunately, there is no "history" attached with LibO community, right? > > So we have this wonderful opportunity to use the latest and most powerful > > tools. > > Wrong, there are ten years of history coming with us, and people already > used to some tools. TDF announcement has stated clearly that this is the > evolution of the OOo project and not a revolution. If you refuse to > accept this fact there will never be an agreement. And that's why we want to involve the stakeholders. That's the elicitation process. The idea is not to change the tools for the heck of it. The stakeholders should see benefits (the change management concepts do apply). > > Still, I wouldn't say the project has gone out of control. > > Which specific road map or milestones are being violated/missed here? > > From your message, it is quite clear that the website team started from > the assumption that this is a new community, and this is definitely a > wrong assumption for this specific community. > Continuity has always been a key statement: this is the old OOo > community evolving towards a different and better future, not into a new > and different community. Obviously we cannot have a totally new community instantly, simply because most people joined from OOo, with a common past experience. The OOo community has also evolved in last 10 years, and it will continue evolving further. Please share SC's vision on how LibO product and community would evolve differently from OOo. Also what should be the pace of this evolution (with the help of some milestones). If long-term and medium-term goals are set, we will know the direction better. Otherwise it just looks like "just don't do anything till I say so". Which is what we started with. BTW using a different set of tools does not mean a revolution either. I have changed a huge number of tools for various purposes. I even use two different sets of tools at work and at home. What's the big deal? > I would not call this a violation but a misunderstanding. If you prefer > the term violation, let's say that the assumption that this is a new > community is a violation of the road map. I meant violation of "road map" in terms of versions, milestones, etc. against time. Have we missed any of them because the web team is working elsewhere? Then that should be communicated so that forces are rallied to meet those targets. Regards, -Narayan -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[libreoffice-website] Re: [Drupal] The road ahead and missed opportunities
Hi Christian: Le 2011-01-19 10:04, Christian Lohmaier a écrit : Hi Marc, *, On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 4:39 AM, Marc Paré wrote: Le 2011-01-18 17:57, Christian Lohmaier a écrit : [...] As you say, people were not listening to each other. As a LibO member who did participate on the Drupal team and helped organise it under the impression that, clearly, the SC had given us the go ahead with the possibility of moving on to the Drupal CMS within 6 months. Yes, the possibility. The proposal put to the membership by the Drupal group was that Drupal would act more as a hub offering windows to the various LibO communities. Somehow this also got lost in the disinformation that was being passed around. Yes, as the impression is that the drupal group would like to force everything into the drupal-infrastructure. Well, this was the wrong impression as we often times offered specific Drupal tools but also affirmed that working closely with all stakeholders was our main objective. LO does not start completely from scratch. It has 10 years of history it shares with the OpenOffice.org project. During that time, various ways of collaboration have formed, various tools are used. You cannot just throw that all away and force it all into drupal. So, would you be OK with having a Drupal site acting as a hub directing traffic to the different sites? This is then the question. Would it not be more impressive to have people think that we are a whole community? I do not get the idea why for this to work you need to force everything into a drupal-driven tool. My intent here with my statement was to show that the Drupal site could have provided itself more as a hub to the outside communities, contrary to the information that others were saying that, as you say, "the need to force everything into a Drupal-drivfen tool". The Drupal site would have been used no more and no less than what Silverstripe is trying to achieve today, of sending people to their different communities. The only difference being that users/visitors to the site would have the distinct impression that of a LibreOffice family. Would it not be more advantageous to find all of the connections in one spot? Would not this give us all a sense of community? Finding all in one spot is completely different in telling people. "Sorry, you won't be using the tools you've been working with anymore, since drupal got this shiny nice module that surely is superior" This is the message that was received. Maybe not what was intended, but this is at least my impression. Remember that we were led to believe that we were told on the website membership list that the Silverstripe first then migration within 6 months to Drupal. We were letting the membership know of certain modules. We were being open and transparent and the modules were up for discussion, with implementation on the Drupal site for testing. Yes, the urgent need for content. Unfortunately, the Silverstripe team had, at the time, assured the SC that the site would be up and running in a matter a few weeks. Again you're twisting facts, just like Michael. So a history lessen of the situation at the time: The Drupal-proposal sites were all *NON FUNCTIONAL*, they sucked regarding the inbuilt editor, they sucked in *BASIC* functionality. While silverstripe was ready to be used. At no time I or anyone else had made a claim about creating the content itself. The statement was always "Allow people to start working on it". And yes, I also was disappointed that there have not been people who were eager waiting to providing the content, there my (and other people's) impression was wrong. But don't claim that silverstripe-team promised a complete site! Then yes, we did misunderstand the Silverstripe approach. You then delivered a functional working site. The Drupal team had plans on involving people with content. I guess we had a more holistic approach to website building. There were offers from a couple of Drupal devs with ongoing mentoring/facilitating help for contributors and the use of the Drupal site modules. We were led to believe that all of the site would just be available to all for use in so little time. For use, yes, and that really was a matter of days to setup the DNS-entry and silverstripe was up and running (at the test.libreoffice.org location at the time). From that point on it was ready to use, working. What was not said, is that, in fact, the Silverstripe had not prepared any IA or any sort of planning You are a liar, and that more or less represent the communication style of the drupal-team as a whole. Those who voice their opinion twist the facts at their will. Thanks then, could you point me to the pages that we had asked for on the website list? There must be a place where we can all see the Silverstripe plans for us to see. If the website membership had seen that there were no plans for content then perhaps we could have helped make
[libreoffice-website] Re: [tdf-discuss] [contribution] Screenshots urgently needed!
Hi all, Does anybody have work on this? Where can I find the screen shots, what still needs to be done? What is the deadline Thanks in advance Kind regards Sophie On 19/01/2011 08:54, Bernhard Dippold wrote: Hi all! This is an opportunity for community members interested in spending some time for LibreOffice, but didn't know exactly how: Please take screenshots from the new features in LibreOffice we can add to the features list at the website. Upload them to the wiki and tell us here which feature you are working on at the moment, so we can avoid double work. Here is Christoph's mail containing details (sent to the design and website list): Christoph Noack wrote: Hi all, there is still a small gap to fill - could anybody please jump in and help to populate the "new features" site? Some screenshots are still missing ... Michael (if I remember correctly) added some ideas how to present some of the features. http://www.libreoffice.org/download/new-features-and-fixes/ And, David once mentioned how he did the screenshots, so please have a look at the requirements - this really helps to make the site look consistent (for the features, please pick the things that apply). > a) Take them under Ubuntu Linux, using the Ambiance theme, with *no* > visual effects. > > b) Take the *window only* with the window frame - not the whole > desktop. > > c) 1000px wide by 750px tall - you can use Screen Ruler to accurately > size the window. > > e) Anything up to a dozen good shots from each app is what I'm hoping > to accumulate in each app, demo the key features: in Writer, > tables, indexes, etc. I'm sure you see what I mean > > f) The file you use for taking the screenshot should ideally be called > "sample.odt" (or whatever extension) Thanks a lot! Cheers > > Christoph Best regards Bernhard -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-website] [Drupal] The road ahead and missed opportunities
On 01/19/2011 05:58 PM, Narayan Aras wrote: I think that here lies one misunderstanding. New proposals are welcome, but they should consider the history of the project and start from here (therefore, if the new proposal diverges from the history, then it is important to get consensus before going forward). That's the most inefficient way to work in a loosely formed organization. But this is the way that a community works. It would be better create a project for each approved proposal, and run it strictly within its scope/budget/time. Like how any software project runs. Yes, if this was a corporate software project, which is not. Well, as the volunteers see it, SC had abandoned post. That's it. As a marketing professional, you would appreciate that it is the public perception that matters, not the reality. It was a specific group perception, and not a general one. Of course, but sometimes experience helps. In sever years, I never talked about my background, and in this case it was just an example. Someone has to judge the merit of an idea, and experience allows to have at least a more informed judgement. Sorry- If we hope to create a truly meritocratic society, we should actively mask the sources. There are millions of examples where a seemingly brilliant idea turned in a failure because of lack of experience in the specific field. For instance, the Italian association (I am the president) has a web site which is never going to be officially connected to TDF and/or LibreOffice. Even assuming that there are some independent sites on LibO, how does that fact impact our strategy? The users of that site are simply not OUR stakeholders. Wrong, they are extremely important as a stakeholder, because they are advocating at local level. They are spreading the message, they are promoting and supporting the software. And fortunately, there is no "history" attached with LibO community, right? So we have this wonderful opportunity to use the latest and most powerful tools. Wrong, there are ten years of history coming with us, and people already used to some tools. TDF announcement has stated clearly that this is the evolution of the OOo project and not a revolution. If you refuse to accept this fact there will never be an agreement. Still, I wouldn't say the project has gone out of control. Which specific road map or milestones are being violated/missed here? From your message, it is quite clear that the website team started from the assumption that this is a new community, and this is definitely a wrong assumption for this specific community. Continuity has always been a key statement: this is the old OOo community evolving towards a different and better future, not into a new and different community. I would not call this a violation but a misunderstanding. If you prefer the term violation, let's say that the assumption that this is a new community is a violation of the roadmap. -- Italo Vignoli - The Document Foundation E-mail: italo.vign...@documentfoundation.org Mobile +39.348.5653829 - VoIP: +39.02.320621813 Skype: italovignoli - GTalk: italo.vign...@gmail.com -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[libreoffice-website] Features screeshots for the website
Hi, There has been a call today for screen shots from new features for the list on the website. Where can I find what has been done? Is it LibO only or OOo too Who have work on it, is there still work needed? What is the deadline? Thanks in advance Kind regards Sophie -- Founding member of The Document Foundation -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-website] [Drupal] The road ahead and missed opportunities
Hi Narayan, On 19/01/2011 19:58, Narayan Aras wrote: BTW I have consistently maintained that mail lists are not suitable to capture such matters. There are easy solutions available. But SC is not interested. So SC has to blame itself for (a) not reading the mail list. and (b) not installing proper tools. Can we say that the SC did not receive enough inputs to correct these mistakes? We have gone through months of 18 hours per day work schedule and we have probably been less responsive than we should have been. But it should be clear that we are volunteers with a professional and a personal life, and we are far from being perfect. It is the other way around: SC has not communicated its vision properly/enough. Worse, SC has also not responded to the ongoing chatter in mail lists to set things right periodically. Which is not true. While SC was COMPLETELY absent from the battlefront, the volunteers rallied at the mail list, and charted the course. Which is not true Volunteers are not androids who will stay in cupboards till needed. They too love the excitement of creating something that was never done before. Why rap their knuckles for it? And where does the wisdom lie- In insulting/sacking such volunteers or in letting them do it? We are all volunteers here. I've been on this list every day since its begining saying anytime what was our vision and our needs. You even wrote me privately and I answered you. Whether you read my mails or not, whether you understand it or not is your issue, not ours. Please, make a search on *all* mailing list of this project with my name and you will see that I'm here any time something needs to be explained or clarified or somebody needs help. Do I have to claim any time that I'm in the SC or that I'm a founding member no, because coming to this project, you know who we are, and how it is organized. When you enter to a home, you know who lives there, this is the same, exactly here. So now - we have work to do - just now on the EN site - are you there to help or not? Kind regards Sophie -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
RE: [libreoffice-website] [Drupal] The road ahead and missed opportunities
> > BTW I have consistently maintained that mail lists are not suitable to > > capture such matters. > > There are easy solutions available. But SC is not interested. > > So SC has to blame itself for (a) not reading the mail list. and (b) not > > installing proper tools. > Can we say that the SC did not receive enough inputs to correct these > mistakes? We have gone through months of 18 hours per day work schedule > and we have probably been less responsive than we should have been. But > it should be clear that we are volunteers with a professional and a > personal life, and we are far from being perfect. It is the other way around: SC has not communicated its vision properly/enough. Worse, SC has also not responded to the ongoing chatter in mail lists to set things right periodically. While SC was COMPLETELY absent from the battlefront, the volunteers rallied at the mail list, and charted the course. Volunteers are not androids who will stay in cupboards till needed. They too love the excitement of creating something that was never done before. Why rap their knuckles for it? And where does the wisdom lie- In insulting/sacking such volunteers or in letting them do it? Charles delivered the same ultimatum to the web team that he probably heard from Oracle. How are we "liberated"? How are we better? And why does SC feel threatened by this voluntary enthusiasm? You should be thrilled! > Well, note that the mail lists cannot distinguish between "approved" tasks, > "unautorized" tasks and "new proposals". > > Further, within an approved project, you cannot control each and every > > aspect that is proposed. > > This is an inherent weakness of mail list. > > This is true. > > > Otherwise Sc can NOT keep track of which mails are within scope and which > > are extraneous. > > This is true as well. > > > Even with this, SC can NOT prevent members from making new proposals. > > I think that here lies one misunderstanding. New proposals are welcome, > but they should consider the history of the project and start from here > (therefore, if the new proposal diverges from the history, then it is > important to get consensus before going forward). That's the most inefficient way to work in a loosely formed organization. It would be better create a project for each approved proposal, and run it strictly within its scope/budget/time. Like how any software project runs. Then the SC can be in control. And believe me no one will mind. > As I said somewhere: evolution and not revolution. We can, and should, > change radically some habits, but it takes time. Sometimes, it takes twice > the effort. Correct, and it is the volunteers who are straining the most! Let SC be supportive at least, if not leading the wave. > > Either lead, be lead or get out of the way! Sleeping at the helm is not a > > viable option. > > We were not sleeping but doing other things. Yes, this was a mistake. Well, as the volunteers see it, SC had abandoned post. That's it. As a marketing professional, you would appreciate that it is the public perception that matters, not the reality. Now SC should be gracious and gain respect of public through generosity and magnanimity, not through coercion. > > Look, pedigree is useful in a dog show, not here. > > I think we should focus on merit of an idea, not WHO proposed it. > > Of course, but sometimes experience helps. In sever years, I never > talked about my background, and in this case it was just an example. > Someone has to judge the merit of an idea, and experience allows to have > at least a more informed judgement. Sorry- If we hope to create a truly meritocratic society, we should actively mask the sources. > Stakeholder is a common word of my profession, and I understood roles as > well. The problem is that the website strategy was to have the web as > the entry point, and this was a mistake. > > History tells us that the web is not the entry point to the project. > This might change in the future. In fact, almost all operations would be achieved through internet. Recruiting volunteer is a small part of it. What about issue-tracker? Configuration management? Release management? Project management? Documentation? These activities would also be through the website. > I would dare to say that most volunteers today participate without ever > accessing the web site. Again, this might change in the future, but I do > not see this happening for many people. > > For instance, in Italy there is a gentleman (nickname Martello, which > means Hammer in Italian) who is generating on a monthly basis a PDF FAQ > document based on the newsgroup discussions (over 3000 pages now) and > has never accessed the web site. > > This is just an example. There is some misunderstanding. Website does NOT mean Drupal (or SilverStripe for that matter). The complete software development would be done through the website. In fact, parts of the website would
Re: [libreoffice-website] L10n mailing list and l10n wiki link on the website
Hi Erich, On 19/01/2011 18:33, Erich Christian wrote: Hi Sophie, [...] I've admin rights for the FR project, are you sure I need to create another account? Of course not, enabled publisher perms for main now, Thanks a lot! Kind regards Sophie -- Founding member of The Document Foundation -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-website] relocating mailing lists at libreoffice.org?
Hi Florian, 2011.01.18 02:06, Florian Effenberger rašė: on the steering-discuss list, we currently discuss about @libreoffice.org e-mail addresses for community members. Just focusing on the technical issues for this mail: I would like to have those e-mail forwarders handled by a separate mail server, independent from the mailing list server. However, we have a few listes directly @libreoffice.org, which makes things complicated. There are two options for this issue: a.) We could use @libreoffice.net or some other domain ending (TLD) for those e-mail addresses b.) We move the mailing lists @libreoffice.org to some subdomain (like l...@libreoffice.org => l...@global.libreoffice.org) Thoughts on that? did you ask the community how many of them think it's necessary to give out emails to each and everyone? What was the response? Actually, Sophie has forwarded one of your messages about this to the L10n mailing list, and I wouldn't say the response was very enthusiastic. There was a total of 4 replies, three of which (incl. mine) suggested that automatically providing email addresses to contributors is unnecessary. So, if there is a consensus that this should be handled on case-by-case basis, then I wonder how problematic it would be to just keep @libreoffice.org lists as they are, while at the same time providing @libreoffice.org emails for some community members. In other words: why do you want a separate mail server first of all? On the other hand, even if separate servers is the only option, why not just set up the appropriate forwarders for mailing lists? The lists themselves could then be managed by e.g. lists.libreoffice.org, but they would still have proper @openoffice.org addresses. And if I can't convince you about this either, then I'm with Fabian: the lists should be hosted on lists.libreoffice.org. "Global" just doesn't make sense. Rimas -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-website] L10n mailing list and l10n wiki link on the website
Hi Sophie, Am 19.01.2011 14:05, schrieb Sophie Gautier: > On 19/01/2011 15:48, David Nelson wrote: >> I just looked and you do not seem to currently have an account on the >> site. > > I've admin rights for the FR project, are you sure I need to create > another account? Of course not, enabled publisher perms for main now, cheers Erich -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: [Drupal] The road ahead and missed opportunities
This email is to the Drupal team, who all that is I am not sure. Guys I have my problems with the SC members and I am leaving because of it, perhaps not quick enough. What you guys are talking about now however is just wrong - you need to stop, no more discussions, just stop and walk away - there is no good for anyone that can come from this. Please just let it go. Sincerely, Drew -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: [Drupal] The road ahead and missed opportunities
Hi Marc, *, On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 4:39 AM, Marc Paré wrote: > Le 2011-01-18 17:57, Christian Lohmaier a écrit : > [...] > As you say, people were not listening to each other. As a LibO member who > did participate on the Drupal team and helped organise it under the > impression that, clearly, the SC had given us the go ahead with the > possibility of moving on to the Drupal CMS within 6 months. Yes, the possibility. > The proposal put > to the membership by the Drupal group was that Drupal would act more as a > hub offering windows to the various LibO communities. Somehow this also got > lost in the disinformation that was being passed around. Yes, as the impression is that the drupal group would like to force everything into the drupal-infrastructure. >> LO does not start completely from scratch. It has 10 years of history >> it shares with the OpenOffice.org project. During that time, various >> ways of collaboration have formed, various tools are used. You cannot >> just throw that all away and force it all into drupal. > > So, would you be OK with having a Drupal site acting as a hub directing > traffic to the different sites? This is then the question. Would it not be > more impressive to have people think that we are a whole community? I do not get the idea why for this to work you need to force everything into a drupal-driven tool. > Would it > not be more advantageous to find all of the connections in one spot? Would > not this give us all a sense of community? Finding all in one spot is completely different in telling people. "Sorry, you won't be using the tools you've been working with anymore, since drupal got this shiny nice module that surely is superior" This is the message that was received. Maybe not what was intended, but this is at least my impression. > Yes, the urgent need for content. Unfortunately, the Silverstripe team had, > at the time, assured the SC that the site would be up and running in a > matter a few weeks. Again you're twisting facts, just like Michael. So a history lessen of the situation at the time: The Drupal-proposal sites were all *NON FUNCTIONAL*, they sucked regarding the inbuilt editor, they sucked in *BASIC* functionality. While silverstripe was ready to be used. At no time I or anyone else had made a claim about creating the content itself. The statement was always "Allow people to start working on it". And yes, I also was disappointed that there have not been people who were eager waiting to providing the content, there my (and other people's) impression was wrong. But don't claim that silverstripe-team promised a complete site! > We were led to believe that all of the site would just > be available to all for use in so little time. For use, yes, and that really was a matter of days to setup the DNS-entry and silverstripe was up and running (at the test.libreoffice.org location at the time). From that point on it was ready to use, working. > What was not said, is that, > in fact, the Silverstripe had not prepared any IA or any sort of planning You are a liar, and that more or less represent the communication style of the drupal-team as a whole. Those who voice their opinion twist the facts at their will. > for the actual web development and that it would be done on a "first come > first serve" meritocratic way. Unfortunately, it was, and still is, quite > difficult to find any members experienced enough in Silverstripe Again complete bullshit. You can count the "problem" reports with silverstripe people posted to the list with your fingers. You don't need to have experience with silverstripe to provide content. There is no need for experienced silverstripe people because there is no need of fancy features yet. > As for adding content, well, why was this not planned when the SC was > assured that the site would be ready within a short time frame? So, the > excuse for having no content for the Silverstripe site is that the Drupal > team were being too organised or that they were negligent in providing > content? I would find it strange that for some reason, ALL of the content > contributors were on the Drupal side? Then why was Silverstripe chosen? AGAIN: Silverstripe was *ready to use*. Drupal sites at the time *DID SUCK*. All there was was "there are modules for drupal, and once you configure it it won't suck". This did go on for weeks, without anybody installing those modules, configuring the drupal site (remember, there were four different drupal demo sites at the time, and *NONE* featured a working editor. *NONE* offered an easy way to insert links to another page on the same site, etc. Despite all the people knowing drupal, despite all the people dealing with drupal for their living. /*THIS*/ is what made the SC made their decision. People need a tool that /works/, not a system that /works once it is configured/. And it isn't enough to assure "you can do it, thousands of sites are running with drupal, drupal is great, bla bla".
Re: [tdf-discuss] [libreoffice-website] [Forum] How will the forum be organized?
Hi Michael, On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 7:16 AM, Michael Wheatland wrote: > On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 11:38 PM, David Nelson > wrote: > [...] > I totally agree. The only reason people are (were) working on Drupal > was that Christian stated that people were already organised to > implement Silverstripe very quickly, which turned out to be not > factual. You still don't get it. And you're completely turning the facts. Silverstripe /was/ ready from the very beginning. > Once we realised that Christian's team was non-existant we offered to > help but were turned down: There was no need to work on silverstripe, as silverstripe was working from the very beginning. What was lacking were people willing to work on the content and on the theme. > http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Regroup-and-further-development-of-the-website-s-td2191011.html Yeah, and when you react two months after people were asking for help, then it's too late. in this concrete situation, help was not turned down either, but it was: > This is a very different message than you were sending the website > team last week. I respect the work you have put into the Silverstripe > site after Christian dropped the ball, Stop this FUD! There was no work put into silverstripe. David did a great job with providing content and later with Ivan and Nikash on the theme as well, but this has nothing to do with silverstripe maintainance. ciao Christian -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-website] [Drupal] The road ahead and missed opportunities
First of all, thanks for taking the time to answer. On 01/19/2011 10:22 AM, Narayan Aras wrote: BTW I have consistently maintained that mail lists are not suitable to capture such matters. There are easy solutions available. But SC is not interested. So SC has to blame itself for (a) not reading the mail list. and (b) not installing proper tools. Can we say that the SC did not receive enough inputs to correct these mistakes? We have gone through months of 18 hours per day work schedule and we have probably been less responsive than we should have been. But it should be clear that we are volunteers with a professional and a personal life, and we are far from being perfect. Well, note that the mail lists cannot distinguish between "approved" tasks, "unautorized" tasks and "new proposals". Further, within an approved project, you cannot control each and every aspect that is proposed. This is an inherent weakness of mail list. This is true. Otherwise Sc can NOT keep track of which mails are within scope and which are extraneous. This is true as well. Even with this, SC can NOT prevent members from making new proposals. I think that here lies one misunderstanding. New proposals are welcome, but they should consider the history of the project and start from here (therefore, if the new proposal diverges from the history, then it is important to get consensus before going forward). As I said somewhere: evolution and not revolution. We can, and should, change radically some habits, but it takes time. Sometimes, it takes twice the effort. Either lead, be lead or get out of the way! Sleeping at the helm is not a viable option. We were not sleeping but doing other things. Yes, this was a mistake. Look, pedigree is useful in a dog show, not here. I think we should focus on merit of an idea, not WHO proposed it. Of course, but sometimes experience helps. In sever years, I never talked about my background, and in this case it was just an example. Someone has to judge the merit of an idea, and experience allows to have at least a more informed judgement. The original word I used was "stakeholder" which means anyone who has an interest in the product. This term goes beyond the "users". Stakeholder is a common word of my profession, and I understood roles as well. The problem is that the website strategy was to have the web as the entry point, and this was a mistake. History tells us that the web is not the entry point to the project. This might change in the future. I would dare to say that most volunteers today participate without ever accessing the web site. Again, this might change in the future, but I do not see this happening for many people. For instance, in Italy there is a gentleman (nickname Martello, which means Hammer in Italian) who is generating on a monthly basis a PDF FAQ document based on the newsgroup discussions (over 3000 pages now) and has never accessed the web site. This is just an example. So, if we define stakeholders we have way more than 23, and some of them interacting in a weird way with the project. For instance, the Italian association (I am the president) has a web site which is never going to be officially connected to TDF and/or LibreOffice. But later someone suggested that a given team can act as multiple types of stakeholders. So I changed the term to "role" to avoid confusion. The idea is that any person/team can play multiple roles; and there may be churn in how these roles are played. The website should be flexible enough so that its interface changes to accommodate any role-mix. I think that the basic mistake (and the SC should have shown the problem at the very beginning, having a better management of the web project) has been to conceive a web site which was departing from the background of the project without offering at first a parallel path, and later a convergence path. Although some of the roles can be combined, their specific needs cannot be ignored. Each role-player would be using the website for his daily/weekly/monthly tasks. All this work is interrelated: Someone's output is used by someone else. So we cannot skip roles. But you cannot force people to use the web site for their tasks, either. TDF brings together developers and users, and you cannot build the project assuming that everyone will accept to use certain tools. I use my own tools, and I am not going to change them because there are other tools available on a web site, because this would disrupt my habits and interphere with my professional life (as I use the same one for both). Thanks for trying to bring truce, but all software development guys already know what we mean. The idea is neither new not does it need to be sold. Again, this is a misunderstanding. The idea is completely new for the history of the project, and as it represents a total departure from the history has to be sold. We have already seen
Re: [libreoffice-website] LibreOffice website team inaugural conference call
On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 11:24 PM, Narayan Aras wrote: > > Would it be possible to record the call and post a MP3 (with the MoMs) so > the absentees can listen in later? > > Thanks! > > We will be organising the use of the current conference call technology. As I understand it the audio can be downloaded and posted to the wiki as occurs with the Marketing and Documentation conference calls. Maybe David can shed some light on how this is done. Thanks -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
RE: [libreoffice-website] LibreOffice website team inaugural conference call
Would it be possible to record the call and post a MP3 (with the MoMs) so the absentees can listen in later? Thanks! > Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2011 23:07:02 +0930 > Subject: Re: [libreoffice-website] LibreOffice website team inaugural > conference call > From: mich...@wheatland.com.au > To: website@libreoffice.org > > On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 10:50 PM, Karl-Heinz Gödderz < > libreoff...@gukk-online.de> wrote: > > > Hi David, ;-) > > > > David Nelson schrieb: > > > Hi, :-) > > > > > > Micheal and I (or whoever else is appointed to leadership/coordination > > > roles) will certainly liaise closely and regularly with the SC during > > > SC confcalls, so that there are *no* communications failures. > > > > > > David Nelson > > > > > > > > I didn't think about communication failures but about attitudes/mindsets. > > > LibreOffice is an open community. We are personally inviting all of those > people who have already contributed to the website team and infrastructure. > The reason LibreOffice exists is to encourage grass roots development and > community building, rather than having to seek permission from a higher > power, ie Oracle. > LibreOffice is about meritocracy, structurally organising the team and > coordination clearly has merit for the whole community. > > The reason we are organising this is to improve the leadership, development, > coordination and communication within the website team. > There have been some mistakes made over the past few months, David as a > "Leader" appointed by the SC and myself are working together to unite the > website team, enable discussion and decisions rather than dictate, and map > out the roadmap for the LibreOffice website in an official capacity as the > team responsible for the web infrastructure. > > Any members of the SC who wish to actively contribute to the website team > are more than welcome to join the conference call and as a team we must > negotiate the best outcome for the community. > I have faith that members of the SC have respect for the website team enough > to respect and uphold decisions made by the team and the community. > The only attitude and mindset we need to think about is respectful > collaboration. > > I hope this clarifies things, > Michael Wheatland > > -- > Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ > *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity *** -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: The road ahead and missed opportunities
On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 5:54 PM, charles.h.schulz < charles.h.sch...@gmail.com> wrote: > > We're not going to reach an agreement here. I don't like to have people > trying to enter through a window when they've been told they can't enter at > the door. > You are entitling yourself "the website team". It's misleading and it has > never been the case. Not everyone was for Drupal and you know it, in fact, > Drupal was but one possible candidate. You come back again with your Drupal > proposition and you want us to come back on our decision to appoint people. > That's not going to happen. > > > Let me make this clear: the SC at present cannot only be a conflict > resolution body. It would be very diminishing anyway, if you read our > bylaws. Right now it has to show leadership because everything has to be > built. The SC built LibreOffice and is developing the Document Foundation. > Which means there is more, much more than a website to it. All around you, > all around us, we now have over a hundred (in fact hundreds of contributors) > developing the software and being the community. What you're showing here is > that you care more about Drupal than anything else and you care more about > disrupting our work than contributing. We could be playing the blame game > for days and months now. We've already been playing this for weeks. > > > So now what I'm going to ask you is to choose between: contributing > productively to the LibreOffice project and stop making demands, or leave > this mailing list and the LibreOffice project. We all have better things to > do than wasting our time. > > Thank you for your constructive and positive input regarding my contribution to the community ;) I will be sure to raise your concerns at the first website team conference call being organised by David Nelson and myself. Thanks, Michael Wheatland -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-website] LibreOffice website team inaugural conference call
On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 10:50 PM, Karl-Heinz Gödderz < libreoff...@gukk-online.de> wrote: > Hi David, ;-) > > David Nelson schrieb: > > Hi, :-) > > > > Micheal and I (or whoever else is appointed to leadership/coordination > > roles) will certainly liaise closely and regularly with the SC during > > SC confcalls, so that there are *no* communications failures. > > > > David Nelson > > > > > I didn't think about communication failures but about attitudes/mindsets. LibreOffice is an open community. We are personally inviting all of those people who have already contributed to the website team and infrastructure. The reason LibreOffice exists is to encourage grass roots development and community building, rather than having to seek permission from a higher power, ie Oracle. LibreOffice is about meritocracy, structurally organising the team and coordination clearly has merit for the whole community. The reason we are organising this is to improve the leadership, development, coordination and communication within the website team. There have been some mistakes made over the past few months, David as a "Leader" appointed by the SC and myself are working together to unite the website team, enable discussion and decisions rather than dictate, and map out the roadmap for the LibreOffice website in an official capacity as the team responsible for the web infrastructure. Any members of the SC who wish to actively contribute to the website team are more than welcome to join the conference call and as a team we must negotiate the best outcome for the community. I have faith that members of the SC have respect for the website team enough to respect and uphold decisions made by the team and the community. The only attitude and mindset we need to think about is respectful collaboration. I hope this clarifies things, Michael Wheatland -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[libreoffice-website] Re: The road ahead and missed opportunities
Michael, We're not going to reach an agreement here. I don't like to have people trying to enter through a window when they've been told they can't enter at the door. You are entitling yourself "the website team". It's misleading and it has never been the case. Not everyone was for Drupal and you know it, in fact, Drupal was but one possible candidate. You come back again with your Drupal proposition and you want us to come back on our decision to appoint people. That's not going to happen. Let me make this clear: the SC at present cannot only be a conflict resolution body. It would be very diminishing anyway, if you read our bylaws. Right now it has to show leadership because everything has to be built. The SC built LibreOffice and is developing the Document Foundation. Which means there is more, much more than a website to it. All around you, all around us, we now have over a hundred (in fact hundreds of contributors) developing the software and being the community. What you're showing here is that you care more about Drupal than anything else and you care more about disrupting our work than contributing. We could be playing the blame game for days and months now. We've already been playing this for weeks. So now what I'm going to ask you is to choose between: contributing productively to the LibreOffice project and stop making demands, or leave this mailing list and the LibreOffice project. We all have better things to do than wasting our time. Thank you, -- charles.h.schulz Sent with Sparrow On mercredi 19 janvier 2011 at 05:19, Michael Wheatland wrote: > On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 6:32 AM, charles.h.schulz > wrote: > > > > I've read several comments about the SC shunning away from its > > responsibilities. > > I think it would be fair to remember that the SC is a group of people (who > > are not perfect) who had the guts to break away from Oracle. They had the > > guts to leave a project they had been contributing to for years (sometimes > > more than ten) and to face difficulties, uncertainty, doubt, the hatred > > feelings of people they had been working with (some Oracle employees). The > > SC members got a vision and are working hard to achieve it. > > > > > > IMO the problem has not been the SC shunning away from > responsibilities, on the contrary. The Website team has self > organised. The problem is the SC getting involved and over-ruling > consensus and negotiated decisions made in individual lists without > going back and reading the history. This is exaserbated with many of > the discussions that SHOULD be on the website list being on the > Discuss or SC-Discuss list. We need a united team for each > mini-project, not the SC going one way and the community going > another. Have the discussion ONCE in the right place: The Webste > mailing list! > > > > To say that we shun away from our responsibilities is I think unfair. But > > we certainly made mistakes. One of them is that we felt a website team > > could organize itself and that the mailing lists in general could run > > smoothly. It was often the case that it worked (and it's working) but when > > it comes to the website, it's obviously not true. We should have understood > > that something was wrong when the Drupal fans continued to discuss, > > unabashed and unfazed by the results of the CMS platform contest that had > > *clearly* nominated Silverstripe and tagged Drupal as *an option in the > > future*. We should have shouted and taken clear actions when we saw this > > website was being sunken into unproductive messages about a solution we > > hadn't picked but that some people felt they were still entitled to pursue. > > > > > > Florian's message on the CMS result was clear "Silverstripe as a > started with plans to migrate to Drupal". Florian as the website SC > rep was actively involved in many discussions about this development. > Once the people working on the Drupal site realised that the > Silverstripe site was under resourced despite the statement that > Christian made to the SC, we acted: > > I started a mailing list thread to regroup and start to coordinate the > Silverstripe development after David had finished the initial design: > http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Regroup-and-further-development-of-the-website-s-td2191011.html > > The response to this from David and other SC members was insulting and > belittling for the existing website team as it insinuated that we were > not competent in managing our own part of the project: > http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Regroup-and-further-development-of-the-website-s-tp2191011p2191098.html > > The most recent decision by the SC, appointing leaders, without even a > mention about it to the website mailing list reinforces this disregard > for the great members who already exist in this team. > In choosing the four 'Leaders' there was not a vote or even mention of > this within the website mailing list, hence there
Re: [libreoffice-website] LibreOffice website team inaugural conference call
Hi David, ;-) David Nelson schrieb: > Hi, :-) > > Micheal and I (or whoever else is appointed to leadership/coordination > roles) will certainly liaise closely and regularly with the SC during > SC confcalls, so that there are *no* communications failures. > > David Nelson > > I didn't think about communication failures but about attitudes/mindsets. Karl-Heinz -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-website] L10n mailing list and l10n wiki link on the website
Hi David, On 19/01/2011 15:48, David Nelson wrote: Hi Sophie, :-) I just looked and you do not seem to currently have an account on the site. I've admin rights for the FR project, are you sure I need to create another account? Please create one at http://www.libreoffice.org/forum and post back when you have done so, and I will set you up with publishing permissions so that you can get involved in the creation and maintenance of pages relevant to your areas of the project. I'm currently logged in as sophi e-mail:gautier.sop...@gmail.com. https://www.libreoffice.org/ForumMemberProfile/show/48 Please tell me if I need to create another nick or use another e-mail. I still have bookmarked a message from you containing info allowing me/us/someone to draft pages for i18n, etc. My suggestion would be that you and I should work on that together, making an appointment for a chat on IRC, so that we can arrive at content that fits your prerogatives, in nice English. Does that sound OK to you? Currently I need to add the l10n address because there is no entry point for them on the international website. Thanks in advance. Kind regards Sophie -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-website] LibreOffice website team inaugural conference call
Hi, :-) Micheal and I (or whoever else is appointed to leadership/coordination roles) will certainly liaise closely and regularly with the SC during SC confcalls, so that there are *no* communications failures. David Nelson -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-website] L10n mailing list and l10n wiki link on the website
Hi Sophie, :-) I just looked and you do not seem to currently have an account on the site. Please create one at http://www.libreoffice.org/forum and post back when you have done so, and I will set you up with publishing permissions so that you can get involved in the creation and maintenance of pages relevant to your areas of the project. I still have bookmarked a message from you containing info allowing me/us/someone to draft pages for i18n, etc. My suggestion would be that you and I should work on that together, making an appointment for a chat on IRC, so that we can arrive at content that fits your prerogatives, in nice English. Does that sound OK to you? David Nelson -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-website] LibreOffice website team inaugural conference call
Michael Wheatland schrieb: > On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 9:36 PM, Charles Marcus > wrote: > > >> On 2011-01-19 4:42 AM, Michael Wheatland wrote: >> >>> I encourage all of those involved with the website team to vote and >>> >> attend >> >>> the meeting. >>> It is time we stood up, took ownership of the tools we are responsible >>> >> for >> >>> and elected our own leaders who represent the website team as a whole. >>> >> Just to be clear... this is not open to simple interested parties/LibO >> users, correct? If so I'm ok with it, just confirming... >> >> > > The Conference call is open to all people who are interested in active > participation to the website team. > This conference call, being the inaugural one, will likely cover a whole > range of topics but mostly internal to the website team. > > I am sure there will be no decisions made that impact the wider community > without consultation after this inaugural conference call, but interested > parties are always welcome to attend, even if to just listen in. > The conversations I have had with David Nelson lean more towards discussing > website coordination and leadership, as well as clarifying the roles, > responsibilities and infrastructure that the team is responsible for. > > Might I suggest we try to keep the agenda pretty light on, this way we can > get the structure and coordination of the team right before diving into > development again. > Please, if you feel you can sustain a contribution to the website team, or > maybe can give advice on the website team structure and nominations for > leadership roles, please attend. > > Thanks, > Michael Wheatland > > Did you ask the SC if they are interested in such a discussion, or if they ever would agree to an outcome different from their last statement? otherwise you do work again for nothing. just my 2 cent Karl-Heinz -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-website] LibreOffice website team inaugural conference call
On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 9:36 PM, Charles Marcus wrote: > On 2011-01-19 4:42 AM, Michael Wheatland wrote: > > I encourage all of those involved with the website team to vote and > attend > > the meeting. > > It is time we stood up, took ownership of the tools we are responsible > for > > and elected our own leaders who represent the website team as a whole. > > Just to be clear... this is not open to simple interested parties/LibO > users, correct? If so I'm ok with it, just confirming... > The Conference call is open to all people who are interested in active participation to the website team. This conference call, being the inaugural one, will likely cover a whole range of topics but mostly internal to the website team. I am sure there will be no decisions made that impact the wider community without consultation after this inaugural conference call, but interested parties are always welcome to attend, even if to just listen in. The conversations I have had with David Nelson lean more towards discussing website coordination and leadership, as well as clarifying the roles, responsibilities and infrastructure that the team is responsible for. Might I suggest we try to keep the agenda pretty light on, this way we can get the structure and coordination of the team right before diving into development again. Please, if you feel you can sustain a contribution to the website team, or maybe can give advice on the website team structure and nominations for leadership roles, please attend. Thanks, Michael Wheatland -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[libreoffice-website] L10n mailing list and l10n wiki link on the website
Hi, Would it be possible to add the l10n mailing list under the Get Involved part, and also don't mix it with NL communities as the work involved is very different ? Or can I have edit rights so I can do it myself. That way I could update the QA and l10n parts that may continuously change in the next weeks until the workflow is completely defined? Currently, there is no way from the international site to join the localization of the product. http://www.libreoffice.org/get-involved/ Localization of the product (UI and help files) is an important part of our project, it brings the product in the language of the user. This help to get the product in more countries and more companies, and thus bring more support to our community. Thanks in advance Kind regards Sophie -- Founding member of The Document Foundation -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] [libreoffice-website] [Forum] How will the forum be organized?
On 2011-01-19 1:16 AM, Michael Wheatland wrote: > On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 11:38 PM, David Nelson wrote: >> Hi Narayan, Michael :-) >> The most recent SC meeting re-stated the same openess to that *in the >> mid-term future*. But it was clearly desired to put an end to what has >> become a disruptive argument backed up by what has been, IMHO, >> disruptive disinformation about the SC's stance, in a quest to >> "bulldoze" the adoption through. > You are incorrect. The development and discussions were as a result of > the official SC statement to the website mailing list: > http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.comp.documentfoundation.libreoffice.website/592 Wow. Kind of demolishes the claims of how 'clear' everything was. On 2011-01-19 5:42 AM, Cor Nouws wrote: > I thought I had read apologies from Charles on the list. Charles' 'apology' was nothing of the sort... in fact I consider it an even bigger insult to Michael and the Drupal team than everything else that happened... sorry, Charles', but I don't think that the problem was a lack of 'barking orders' from you. Anyway, I'm done (again) with this thread... hopefully the new initiative that David and Michael are working on will enable the community to outlive these growing pains. -- Best regards, Charles -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-website] LibreOffice website team inaugural conference call
Hi, :-) It's going to be an interesting and lively confcall (we plan to have them *very* regularly) in which we are going to reconcile all the website team's ideas and desires with the policies and realities of the other areas of the project. It might not always be easy but, with patience and compromise, I am certain that we'll manage to find a path forward that best serves the interests of the LibreOffice project and community, and that has lots of scope for innovation. We're supposed to be an open community, so it's open to those who want to contribute real, active work to the libreoffice.org website, as part of an inclusive, viable and creative website team. David Nelson -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-website] LibreOffice website team inaugural conference call
On 2011-01-19 4:42 AM, Michael Wheatland wrote: > I encourage all of those involved with the website team to vote and attend > the meeting. > It is time we stood up, took ownership of the tools we are responsible for > and elected our own leaders who represent the website team as a whole. Just to be clear... this is not open to simple interested parties/LibO users, correct? If so I'm ok with it, just confirming... -- Best regards, Charles -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-website] LibreOffice website team inaugural conference call
Realy good idea :) Even if i didn't replied on other mails, but i'm following the discussion here. I think it's the best way to clarify in which direction we will put all our effort. 1 single Roadmap and not several (Silvestripe/Drupal). What do you understand under "teams"? Content, Translation, Design, Technical ? I would like to propose myself for Programming(Html/CSS) and UX(Design). My Ideas to the ConfCal: - I like to change to Drupal - Better Plugin accesibility - Easy integration with "Vanilla-Forums" - Official Forums for Libreoffice on the Main Domain - Vanilla Easy Integration into other system (Even Single Login) - Some other ideas included in my little idea on the UX for Libreoffice. Which includes every part of LibreOffice Mike Am 19.01.2011 um 10:42 schrieb Michael Wheatland: > David Nelson and myself are organising the inaugural LibreOffice website > team conference call. > > To vote on the time please visit: http://doodle.com/wzy78i52av4h6din > To contribute to the agenda please visit: > http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Website/ConfCall/Agenda > > In the call we expect to discuss website team leadership, nomination of team > leaders, coordination of tasks and the way forward for the website team and > the developments we are responsible for. > > We expect that this call we will clarify the official position of the Drupal > development, which will allow more honest discussions about > future architecture and temporary measures to address the technical > constraints that we will encounter soon while using Silverstripe as the > infrastructure. > > I encourage all of those involved with the website team to vote and attend > the meeting. > It is time we stood up, took ownership of the tools we are responsible for > and elected our own leaders who represent the website team as a whole. > > Michael Wheatland > > -- > Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ > *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity *** -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-website] [Drupal] The road ahead and missed opportunities
Hi David, Thanks for your wise words here, and participation in the initiative. Cor David Nelson wrote (19-01-11 10:56) Hi, :-) OK, let's move on past this, and look towards a constructive future. Please read Michael elsewhere on this list, with positive news. *Don't* get too sensitive about the way you might interpret the *tone* of the language. Instead, we are going to find ways forward that address all the concerns and needs we have to take account of - notably those of LibreOffice project and community, and including those of the SC. ;-) We all need to talk, and to get down to constructive work on the libreoffice.org website. ;-) I'm very happy about the progress we are going to make. :-) David Nelson -- - giving openoffice.org its foundation :: The Document Foundation - -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-website] [Drupal] The road ahead and missed opportunities
Narayan Aras wrote (19-01-11 10:50) And you, don't play the "clueless leader". Thanks :-D See this mail first:http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/msg01422.html. I specifically asked whether Drupal was official. Why did it go on for ages without a clear "yes" or "no" answer. I have specifically remarked that the SC decision is ambivalent; and that we should not be made to second-guess SC's decisions. http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/msg01425.html Later the thread settled and then I started work. Not before. I thought I had read apologies from Charles on the list. So was a bit surprised by the (as far as I read...) continued discussion. Sorry if my post was too much showing my irritation, that even might have been misplaced. Regards, Cor Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2011 10:27:51 +0100 From: oo...@nouenoff.nl To: website@libreoffice.org Subject: Re: [libreoffice-website] [Drupal] The road ahead and missed opportunities Hi gang, Narayan Aras wrote (19-01-11 10:22) The whole work was in accordance with SC's decision. Pls don't play the killed innocence here. There were enough mails that should have make you think. Best, Cor -- - giving openoffice.org its foundation :: The Document Foundation - -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-website] [Drupal] The road ahead and missed opportunities
Hi, :-) OK, let's move on past this, and look towards a constructive future. Please read Michael elsewhere on this list, with positive news. *Don't* get too sensitive about the way you might interpret the *tone* of the language. Instead, we are going to find ways forward that address all the concerns and needs we have to take account of - notably those of LibreOffice project and community, and including those of the SC. ;-) We all need to talk, and to get down to constructive work on the libreoffice.org website. ;-) I'm very happy about the progress we are going to make. :-) David Nelson -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
RE: [libreoffice-website] [Drupal] The road ahead and missed opportunities
And you, don't play the "clueless leader". See this mail first:http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/msg01422.html. I specifically asked whether Drupal was official. Why did it go on for ages without a clear "yes" or "no" answer. I have specifically remarked that the SC decision is ambivalent; and that we should not be made to second-guess SC's decisions. http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/msg01425.html Later the thread settled and then I started work. Not before. > Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2011 10:27:51 +0100 > From: oo...@nouenoff.nl > To: website@libreoffice.org > Subject: Re: [libreoffice-website] [Drupal] The road ahead andmissed > opportunities > > Hi gang, > > Narayan Aras wrote (19-01-11 10:22) > > > The whole work was in accordance with SC's decision. > > Pls don't play the killed innocence here. > There were enough mails that should have make you think. > > Best, > Cor > > -- > - giving openoffice.org its foundation :: The Document Foundation - > > > -- > Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ > *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity *** > -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[libreoffice-website] LibreOffice website team inaugural conference call
David Nelson and myself are organising the inaugural LibreOffice website team conference call. To vote on the time please visit: http://doodle.com/wzy78i52av4h6din To contribute to the agenda please visit: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Website/ConfCall/Agenda In the call we expect to discuss website team leadership, nomination of team leaders, coordination of tasks and the way forward for the website team and the developments we are responsible for. We expect that this call we will clarify the official position of the Drupal development, which will allow more honest discussions about future architecture and temporary measures to address the technical constraints that we will encounter soon while using Silverstripe as the infrastructure. I encourage all of those involved with the website team to vote and attend the meeting. It is time we stood up, took ownership of the tools we are responsible for and elected our own leaders who represent the website team as a whole. Michael Wheatland -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-website] [Drupal] The road ahead and missed opportunities
Hi gang, Narayan Aras wrote (19-01-11 10:22) The whole work was in accordance with SC's decision. Pls don't play the killed innocence here. There were enough mails that should have make you think. Best, Cor -- - giving openoffice.org its foundation :: The Document Foundation - -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
RE: [libreoffice-website] [Drupal] The road ahead and missed opportunities
Hi Italo, > Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2011 13:13:55 +0100 > From: italo.vign...@gmail.com > To: website@libreoffice.org > Subject: Re: [libreoffice-website] [Drupal] The road ahead and missed > opportunities > > On 1/18/11 12:26 PM, Narayan Aras wrote: > > > Then I volunteered to collect the stakeholders requirements. > > The 23 roles were identified on this very mail list. > > I have seen mentions of these "23 roles" many times, but I have not seen > a list where they are described in detail. It looks like they have been > developed without even asking the SC members - or the group of the > founders - if this was the right approach. The whole work was in accordance with SC's decision. (see the links provided by Michael and others.) Can I help it if the MC does not read the mail list? BTW I have consistently maintained that mail lists are not suitable to capture such matters. There are easy solutions available. But SC is not interested. So SC has to blame itself for (a) not reading the mail list. and (b) not installing proper tools. > I am not a web site expert, but I am a member of the SC and in addition > I am the one coordinating marketing (you might complain about this, but > I got the trust of the founders based on seven years of activity inside > the OOo community). In order to approve an approach, you have to "sell" > it before even starting to work at it. Well, note that the mail lists cannot distinguish between "approved" tasks, "unautorized" tasks and "new proposals". Further, within an approved project, you cannot control each and every aspect that is proposed. This is an inherent weakness of mail list. If SC wants to control each minutest step, the only solution is to launch a formal project. Further, that project has to be broken up into tasks and sub-tasks (This is called "WBS"= Work Breakdown Structure) In other words, the SC has to maintain various approved projects, each with a detailed structure. Only then we can talk about whether any step is approved or not. Otherwise Sc can NOT keep track of which mails are within scope and which are extraneous. Even with this, SC can NOT prevent members from making new proposals. That is at the root of all trouble: 1. SC does not make/approve/drive projects with WBS. 2. SC misses the ongoing progress on approved/unautorized/new proposals. 3. Then SC wakes up one fine day and starts questioning the discussions and starts reversing the things. Either lead, be lead or get out of the way! Sleeping at the helm is not a viable option. > When I have entered the OOo community I told the members about my > experience (at the time, 23 years in IT marketing, as an executive VP of > a very large corporation and then as a consultant, plus 12 years as a > professor in Italy and the US - summer courses - where I have also > obtained three master degrees - all summa cum laude - in communications > (marketing and media relations) and journalism, which in general can be > considered as adequate credentials for an OOo marketing contact), but I > was asked to start working at translating some documents (which I did > translate as it was a very easy task). > > When Davide Dozza, the Italian OOo maintainer, saw the quality of the > translations, then I was allowed to start working in "real" marketing. I > had to "sell" myself, although I had very good credentials. > > I do not mind about my background (other long time members of the OOo > community can confirm they have never heard about it until today) as I > do like to be respected for what I do and not for what I have studied. > Communities have their non written rules, and there is some learning > curve (as in any other activity). Look, pedigree is useful in a dog show, not here. I think we should focus on merit of an idea, not WHO proposed it. In any case, most volunteers are not vying to become SC-members. At least those people should be excused for not advertising their lineage. > I am very interested in understanding: > > 1. Why you decided to create "roles" (it might be a silly question, but > when you deal with people different from you I have learned that there > are not silly questions) @the word "roles" No this is a good question, and I am sure everyone else on the SC knows the answer already, because they are from software development community (you are the only outsider! :) ) The original word I used was "stakeholder" which means anyone who has an interest in the product. This term goes beyond the "users". But later someone suggested that a given team can act as multiple types of stakeholders. So I changed the term to "role" to avoid confusion. The idea is that any person/team can play multiple roles; and there may be churn in how these roles are played. The website should be flexible enough so that its interface changes to accommodate any role-mix. ** @Is this a standard concept? Yes. Refer to CMMI-DEV 1.3 (www.sei.cmu.edu/reports/10tr033.pdf)
Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: [Drupal] The road ahead and missed opportunities
Please stand by. David and myself are organising a regroup of the website team in the form of a Conference Call. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: [Drupal] The road ahead and missed opportunities
On 01/19/2011 05:04 AM, Marc Paré wrote: This kind of reasoning however would seem to promote communities built on regions rather than one whole community. This would then make for a good case of having country based communities with their own set of website tools. Marc, it is not a resoning, it is a fact. It was told several times that TDF is the natural evolution of the OOo community, which in some geographies is very strong and organized. In order to grow further the community we must consider this fact, and choose a path that brings together the old and the new. During the last ten years, all kind of mistakes has already been made and one of these mistakes was to force everyone into a single central infrastructure (CollabNet). The history shows that the strongest communities inside the OOo ecosystem are those that have been able to organize independently. And history is seldom wrong. Of course, trying to evolve into a more coordinated community makes a lot of sense, but you do not evolve if you try to make a U turn in respect to the previous path. I think that a basic misunderstanding was due to the fact that the website team was new to the community and has not listened to the past experience, and the old members of the community have overlooked the problem (and made wrong assumptions). Would it not make more sense to have a central point, LibreOffice.org, where upon landing you are directed to your region? Is this not what we are doing already? Sometimes, what makes sense for a group is not what makes sense for everyone. In Italy, the community is called Associazione PLIO (I am the President) and is not going to change the name now because there are 6 years of history behind it. We have a web site (based on Drupal) and other tools which are already in place. The Italian newsgroup, totally independent, is the best support resource. They are even producing a 3.000 pages FAQ updated at the end of every month. They want to stay independent, and I am not even going to ask them to switch from their infrastructure to a central one under LibreOffice umbrella. Maybe, this does not makes sense, but this works like a charm. Has anyone considered that perhaps this is another step in LibreOffice's coming of age? Perhaps centralizing the communication tools and working on a common membership will make it stronger? There is still room for individuality even when in a large group. Perhaps this is where the membership will find it's strength. Communities are tricky, and international communities are trickier. Again, there are ten years of history behind our shoulders. We want to evolve, not revolve. Evolution is slower, and based on consensus. The preferred tools can still be offered up to the groups from a central point as well. The problem is that there are groups that want to stay independent. Look at ODFAuthors. Perhaps speaking as on common LibreOffice voice rather than different LibreOffice groups will give us more strength. Perhaps, rather than gaining 20% of market share, a common membership approach will give us a larger share of the market? I do not know. Maybe yes, maybe not. The fact is that independence has been a key factor for the success of the community is some geographies, and this cannot be ignored. Any departure from this fact should be carefully evaluated. -- Italo Vignoli - The Document Foundation E-mail: italo.vign...@documentfoundation.org Mobile +39.348.5653829 - VoIP: +39.02.320621813 Skype: italovignoli - GTalk: italo.vign...@gmail.com -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
