Re: [WSG] Suckerfish and IE 5 with no Javascript
Not really because it cuts into UI design. But i see what you mean, i have it under control. On Sat, Jun 7, 2008 at 7:14 PM, Darren West <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Cool design, maybe you could reveal the sublnks onClick? then keep the > panel open and repopulate with the relevant links as you move over the > navigation links. > > If you have the time/money in the project, it would be well worth > doing user testing :-) > > We maybe veering away from the purpose of this mailing list > > > 2008/6/6 James Jeffery <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > The same image but with the content and withut the dropdown showing: > > http://img246.imageshack.us/my.php?image=standard01qi5.png > > > > I think it might work without the dropdown. I will have to speak to the > > youth centre manager on Wednesday. > > > > James > > > > On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 5:34 PM, James Jeffery > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> > >> Here is an example of the NEW idea: > >> http://img391.imageshack.us/img391/3992/standard01yo8.png > >> > >> This has got me thinking though. If there is going to be a sub > navigation > >> part on every page is there really any need for the dropdown? > >> > >> By adding the dropdown the only benefit the user will get is that they > >> don't have to click twice to get to a section/sub page. For example to > >> access "Maypole Radio" they select other services and click. Without it > they > >> would have to click "Other Services" and select from the static sub > >> navigation menu. > >> > >> I am not sure if its going to be worth it in the end. Obviously the > static > >> sub navigation is going to be amust so that i can cover everything. The > >> Suckerfish menu now seems useless in a way. If i leave it there it may > add > >> extra confusion to the navigation of the website. If you get what i > mean. > >> > >> Cheers for the input so far. > >> > >> James > >> > >> On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 5:07 PM, James Jeffery > >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >>> > >>> With the pure CSS version, and using Javascript to take care of IE 5, > you > >>> can ensure it will work with browsers with JS disabled. Thats why i > chose to > >>> use the Suckerfish style dropdowns. Also you can add some extra > behvaiour > >>> ontop of the pure CSS menu's. > >>> > >>> I think maybe the best solution would be to display sub link on the sub > >>> pages. Save all the hassle of using conditionals and stuff. I did think > >>> about doing it this way at first but then started wondering about user > >>> experience and possible confusion. > >>> > >>> It's always the simple approaches that tend to be the best. > >>> > >>> Thanks for your support fellow CSS'ers > >>> > >>> On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 4:50 PM, Thierry Koblentz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > ] > >>>> On > >>>> Behalf Of James Jeffery > >>>> Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 2:49 AM > >>>> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org > >>>> Subject: [WSG] Suckerfish and IE 5 with no Javascript > >>>> > >>>> Maybe i am being a little bit picky with this. > >>>> > >>>> I have a suckerfish dropdown, as i feel it is the best approach for > >>>> cross-browser (but not A grade) dropdowns. The website i am working on > >>>> is a > >>>> youth centre's. The target audience is the community, which can be > young > >>>> or > >>>> very old. The very old "may" be using IE 5 on older computers (at a > >>>> guess). > >>>> If they have JS disabled and are using IE 5 then they cannot view the > >>>> navigation links. > >>>> > >>>> Whats your views on the best way around this? > >>>> > >>>> I was thinking about sing PHP to determine what browser the user is > >>>> using > >>>> and if JS is enabled. If its IE 5 and it is not enabled then when a > user > >>>> clicks a link from the navigation menu the page will load but under > the > >>>> navigation will be another div that lists the links uder that sub > >>>> heading. > >>
Re: [WSG] Suckerfish and IE 5 with no Javascript
Cool design, maybe you could reveal the sublnks onClick? then keep the panel open and repopulate with the relevant links as you move over the navigation links. If you have the time/money in the project, it would be well worth doing user testing :-) We maybe veering away from the purpose of this mailing list 2008/6/6 James Jeffery <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > The same image but with the content and withut the dropdown showing: > http://img246.imageshack.us/my.php?image=standard01qi5.png > > I think it might work without the dropdown. I will have to speak to the > youth centre manager on Wednesday. > > James > > On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 5:34 PM, James Jeffery > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >> Here is an example of the NEW idea: >> http://img391.imageshack.us/img391/3992/standard01yo8.png >> >> This has got me thinking though. If there is going to be a sub navigation >> part on every page is there really any need for the dropdown? >> >> By adding the dropdown the only benefit the user will get is that they >> don't have to click twice to get to a section/sub page. For example to >> access "Maypole Radio" they select other services and click. Without it they >> would have to click "Other Services" and select from the static sub >> navigation menu. >> >> I am not sure if its going to be worth it in the end. Obviously the static >> sub navigation is going to be amust so that i can cover everything. The >> Suckerfish menu now seems useless in a way. If i leave it there it may add >> extra confusion to the navigation of the website. If you get what i mean. >> >> Cheers for the input so far. >> >> James >> >> On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 5:07 PM, James Jeffery >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>> >>> With the pure CSS version, and using Javascript to take care of IE 5, you >>> can ensure it will work with browsers with JS disabled. Thats why i chose to >>> use the Suckerfish style dropdowns. Also you can add some extra behvaiour >>> ontop of the pure CSS menu's. >>> >>> I think maybe the best solution would be to display sub link on the sub >>> pages. Save all the hassle of using conditionals and stuff. I did think >>> about doing it this way at first but then started wondering about user >>> experience and possible confusion. >>> >>> It's always the simple approaches that tend to be the best. >>> >>> Thanks for your support fellow CSS'ers >>> >>> On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 4:50 PM, Thierry Koblentz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>> On >>>> Behalf Of James Jeffery >>>> Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 2:49 AM >>>> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org >>>> Subject: [WSG] Suckerfish and IE 5 with no Javascript >>>> >>>> Maybe i am being a little bit picky with this. >>>> >>>> I have a suckerfish dropdown, as i feel it is the best approach for >>>> cross-browser (but not A grade) dropdowns. The website i am working on >>>> is a >>>> youth centre's. The target audience is the community, which can be young >>>> or >>>> very old. The very old "may" be using IE 5 on older computers (at a >>>> guess). >>>> If they have JS disabled and are using IE 5 then they cannot view the >>>> navigation links. >>>> >>>> Whats your views on the best way around this? >>>> >>>> I was thinking about sing PHP to determine what browser the user is >>>> using >>>> and if JS is enabled. If its IE 5 and it is not enabled then when a user >>>> clicks a link from the navigation menu the page will load but under the >>>> navigation will be another div that lists the links uder that sub >>>> heading. >>>> >>>> - >>>> | nav nav nav nav nav nav nav | >>>> - >>>> >>>> | sub link sub link | >>>> | sub link sub link | >>>> | sub link sub link | >>>> >>>> ---
Re: [WSG] Suckerfish and IE 5 with no Javascript
Joe said: > then you need to be aware at build time that when javascript off, and nested > navigation is therefore expanded in order to provide equal access to features > for people without dependence to javascript, the design needs to allow for > this. Yes, the equality should be inherent. At build time? > having the nav overlap content is pretty unnecessary anyway. I don't think this is a matter of necessity. I was referring to the drop downs overlapping the content which I believe in the majority of use cases that is exactly what happens ...they rarely push the content down when shown? > Sorry but bad design, planning and and architecture is not an excuse... No one here is making excuses > You could, for example, not have it popout in the first place, negating the > need to have an alternative solution for others. You could, also, for > example, only show subnav within a section, negating the need for popouts. If > your architecture is clear and obvious, and you have plenty of clear pointers > to the content sections, the popout subnav becomes less necessary. Again I don't believe believe we're talking necessity, the "popout" or "drop down" menu I believe should be there to enhance the user experience, make it easier and quicker to navigate 2008/6/7 Joe Ortenzi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > then you need to be aware at build time that when javascript off, and nested > navigation is therefore expanded in order to provide equal access to > features for people without dependence to javascript, the design needs to > allow for this. > having the nav overlap content is pretty unnecessary anyway. > Sorry but bad design, planning and and architecture is not an excuse... > You could, for example, not have it popout in the first place, negating the > need to have an alternative solution for others. You could, also, for > example, only show subnav within a section, negating the need for popouts. > If your architecture is clear and obvious, and you have plenty of clear > pointers to the content sections, the popout subnav becomes less necessary. > > > On Jun 6 2008, at 16:18, Darren West wrote: > > Joe said: > > Therefore if javascript is off, any descended subnav should display in it's > expanded state. > > I agree with this pattern for some scenerios, for example with tabbed > panels, but (depending on the design) surely with drop down navigation > it would cause usability issues with the expanded states for all drop > downs overlapping each other and other content > > *** > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm > Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > *** > > Joe Ortenzi > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > www.typingthevoid.com > www.joiz.com > > > > *** > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm > Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Suckerfish and IE 5 with no Javascript
Check my examples i posted and my recent posts, they show what i mean. I think in the case of this design it can work fine without the dropdown menu. On Sat, Jun 7, 2008 at 2:09 PM, Joe Ortenzi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > then you need to be aware at build time that when javascript off, and > nested navigation is therefore expanded in order to provide equal access to > features for people without dependence to javascript, the design needs to > allow for this. > having the nav overlap content is pretty unnecessary anyway. > > Sorry but bad design, planning and and architecture is not an excuse... > > You could, for example, not have it popout in the first place, negating the > need to have an alternative solution for others. You could, also, for > example, only show subnav within a section, negating the need for popouts. > If your architecture is clear and obvious, and you have plenty of clear > pointers to the content sections, the popout subnav becomes less necessary. > > > On Jun 6 2008, at 16:18, Darren West wrote: > > Joe said: > > Therefore if javascript is off, any descended subnav should display in it's > expanded state. > > > I agree with this pattern for some scenerios, for example with tabbed > panels, but (depending on the design) surely with drop down navigation > it would cause usability issues with the expanded states for all drop > downs overlapping each other and other content > > > *** > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm > Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > *** > > > Joe Ortenzi > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > www.typingthevoid.com > www.joiz.com > > > > > *** > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm > Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > *** > *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Suckerfish and IE 5 with no Javascript
then you need to be aware at build time that when javascript off, and nested navigation is therefore expanded in order to provide equal access to features for people without dependence to javascript, the design needs to allow for this. having the nav overlap content is pretty unnecessary anyway. Sorry but bad design, planning and and architecture is not an excuse... You could, for example, not have it popout in the first place, negating the need to have an alternative solution for others. You could, also, for example, only show subnav within a section, negating the need for popouts. If your architecture is clear and obvious, and you have plenty of clear pointers to the content sections, the popout subnav becomes less necessary. On Jun 6 2008, at 16:18, Darren West wrote: Joe said: Therefore if javascript is off, any descended subnav should display in it's expanded state. I agree with this pattern for some scenerios, for example with tabbed panels, but (depending on the design) surely with drop down navigation it would cause usability issues with the expanded states for all drop downs overlapping each other and other content *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.typingthevoid.com www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Suckerfish and IE 5 with no Javascript
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of James Jeffery > Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 9:08 AM > To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org > Subject: Re: [WSG] Suckerfish and IE 5 with no Javascript > > With the pure CSS version, and using Javascript to take care of IE 5, you can ensure it will work with browsers with JS disabled. > Thats why i chose to use the Suckerfish style dropdowns. > Also you can add some extra behvaiour ontop of the pure CSS menu's. Flyout/dropdown menus that do not have some timer built-in to make sure the sub menus do not close too fast may work with JS off, but that does not mean they are great menus. My .02 PS: Javascript is needed for IE6 too -- Regards, Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Suckerfish and IE 5 with no Javascript
The same image but with the content and withut the dropdown showing: http://img246.imageshack.us/my.php?image=standard01qi5.png I think it might work without the dropdown. I will have to speak to the youth centre manager on Wednesday. James On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 5:34 PM, James Jeffery < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Here is an example of the NEW idea: > http://img391.imageshack.us/img391/3992/standard01yo8.png > > This has got me thinking though. If there is going to be a sub navigation > part on every page is there really any need for the dropdown? > > By adding the dropdown the only benefit the user will get is that they > don't have to click twice to get to a section/sub page. For example to > access "Maypole Radio" they select other services and click. Without it they > would have to click "Other Services" and select from the static sub > navigation menu. > > I am not sure if its going to be worth it in the end. Obviously the static > sub navigation is going to be amust so that i can cover everything. The > Suckerfish menu now seems useless in a way. If i leave it there it may add > extra confusion to the navigation of the website. If you get what i mean. > > Cheers for the input so far. > > James > > On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 5:07 PM, James Jeffery < > [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> With the pure CSS version, and using Javascript to take care of IE 5, you >> can ensure it will work with browsers with JS disabled. Thats why i chose to >> use the Suckerfish style dropdowns. Also you can add some extra behvaiour >> ontop of the pure CSS menu's. >> >> I think maybe the best solution would be to display sub link on the sub >> pages. Save all the hassle of using conditionals and stuff. I did think >> about doing it this way at first but then started wondering about user >> experience and possible confusion. >> >> It's always the simple approaches that tend to be the best. >> >> Thanks for your support fellow CSS'ers >> >> On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 4:50 PM, Thierry Koblentz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> wrote: >> >>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >>> On >>> Behalf Of James Jeffery >>> Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 2:49 AM >>> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org >>> Subject: [WSG] Suckerfish and IE 5 with no Javascript >>> >>> Maybe i am being a little bit picky with this. >>> >>> I have a suckerfish dropdown, as i feel it is the best approach for >>> cross-browser (but not A grade) dropdowns. The website i am working on is >>> a >>> youth centre's. The target audience is the community, which can be young >>> or >>> very old. The very old "may" be using IE 5 on older computers (at a >>> guess). >>> If they have JS disabled and are using IE 5 then they cannot view the >>> navigation links. >>> >>> Whats your views on the best way around this? >>> >>> I was thinking about sing PHP to determine what browser the user is using >>> and if JS is enabled. If its IE 5 and it is not enabled then when a user >>> clicks a link from the navigation menu the page will load but under the >>> navigation will be another div that lists the links uder that sub >>> heading. >>> >>> - >>> | nav nav nav nav nav nav nav | >>> - >>> >>> | sub link sub link | >>> | sub link sub link | >>> | sub link sub link | >>> >>> - >>> all the other content goes on as normal >>> >>> Only users who are using a browser that does not support the hover psudeo >>> selector on anything other than a elements will see that box. It will be >>> generated using PHP before the page loads. >>> >>> I was thinking about doing that for all the users, and have that >>> displaying >>> regardless, but that may add confusion to the user experience i feel. >>> >>> Anyone ideas? >>> >>> >>> Hi James, >>> I have these two: >>> http://tjkdesign.com/articles/Pure_CSS_Dropdown_Menus.asp >>> >>> I believe they are compatible with ie5 Win and Mac >>> >>> But if you ask
Re: [WSG] Suckerfish and IE 5 with no Javascript
Here is an example of the NEW idea: http://img391.imageshack.us/img391/3992/standard01yo8.png This has got me thinking though. If there is going to be a sub navigation part on every page is there really any need for the dropdown? By adding the dropdown the only benefit the user will get is that they don't have to click twice to get to a section/sub page. For example to access "Maypole Radio" they select other services and click. Without it they would have to click "Other Services" and select from the static sub navigation menu. I am not sure if its going to be worth it in the end. Obviously the static sub navigation is going to be amust so that i can cover everything. The Suckerfish menu now seems useless in a way. If i leave it there it may add extra confusion to the navigation of the website. If you get what i mean. Cheers for the input so far. James On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 5:07 PM, James Jeffery < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > With the pure CSS version, and using Javascript to take care of IE 5, you > can ensure it will work with browsers with JS disabled. Thats why i chose to > use the Suckerfish style dropdowns. Also you can add some extra behvaiour > ontop of the pure CSS menu's. > > I think maybe the best solution would be to display sub link on the sub > pages. Save all the hassle of using conditionals and stuff. I did think > about doing it this way at first but then started wondering about user > experience and possible confusion. > > It's always the simple approaches that tend to be the best. > > Thanks for your support fellow CSS'ers > > On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 4:50 PM, Thierry Koblentz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On >> Behalf Of James Jeffery >> Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 2:49 AM >> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org >> Subject: [WSG] Suckerfish and IE 5 with no Javascript >> >> Maybe i am being a little bit picky with this. >> >> I have a suckerfish dropdown, as i feel it is the best approach for >> cross-browser (but not A grade) dropdowns. The website i am working on is >> a >> youth centre's. The target audience is the community, which can be young >> or >> very old. The very old "may" be using IE 5 on older computers (at a >> guess). >> If they have JS disabled and are using IE 5 then they cannot view the >> navigation links. >> >> Whats your views on the best way around this? >> >> I was thinking about sing PHP to determine what browser the user is using >> and if JS is enabled. If its IE 5 and it is not enabled then when a user >> clicks a link from the navigation menu the page will load but under the >> navigation will be another div that lists the links uder that sub heading. >> >> - >> | nav nav nav nav nav nav nav | >> - >> >> | sub link sub link | >> | sub link sub link | >> | sub link sub link | >> >> - >> all the other content goes on as normal >> >> Only users who are using a browser that does not support the hover psudeo >> selector on anything other than a elements will see that box. It will be >> generated using PHP before the page loads. >> >> I was thinking about doing that for all the users, and have that >> displaying >> regardless, but that may add confusion to the user experience i feel. >> >> Anyone ideas? >> >> >> Hi James, >> I have these two: >> http://tjkdesign.com/articles/Pure_CSS_Dropdown_Menus.asp >> >> I believe they are compatible with ie5 Win and Mac >> >> But if you ask me, I'd say the best approach would be to use a good JS >> menu >> rather than a "pure CSS solution". >> >> -- >> Regards, >> Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> *** >> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm >> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm >> Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> *** >> >> > > *** > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm > Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > *** > *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Suckerfish and IE 5 with no Javascript
With the pure CSS version, and using Javascript to take care of IE 5, you can ensure it will work with browsers with JS disabled. Thats why i chose to use the Suckerfish style dropdowns. Also you can add some extra behvaiour ontop of the pure CSS menu's. I think maybe the best solution would be to display sub link on the sub pages. Save all the hassle of using conditionals and stuff. I did think about doing it this way at first but then started wondering about user experience and possible confusion. It's always the simple approaches that tend to be the best. Thanks for your support fellow CSS'ers On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 4:50 PM, Thierry Koblentz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of James Jeffery > Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 2:49 AM > To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org > Subject: [WSG] Suckerfish and IE 5 with no Javascript > > Maybe i am being a little bit picky with this. > > I have a suckerfish dropdown, as i feel it is the best approach for > cross-browser (but not A grade) dropdowns. The website i am working on is a > youth centre's. The target audience is the community, which can be young or > very old. The very old "may" be using IE 5 on older computers (at a guess). > If they have JS disabled and are using IE 5 then they cannot view the > navigation links. > > Whats your views on the best way around this? > > I was thinking about sing PHP to determine what browser the user is using > and if JS is enabled. If its IE 5 and it is not enabled then when a user > clicks a link from the navigation menu the page will load but under the > navigation will be another div that lists the links uder that sub heading. > > - > | nav nav nav nav nav nav nav | > - > > | sub link sub link | > | sub link sub link | > | sub link sub link | > > - > all the other content goes on as normal > > Only users who are using a browser that does not support the hover psudeo > selector on anything other than a elements will see that box. It will be > generated using PHP before the page loads. > > I was thinking about doing that for all the users, and have that displaying > regardless, but that may add confusion to the user experience i feel. > > Anyone ideas? > > > Hi James, > I have these two: > http://tjkdesign.com/articles/Pure_CSS_Dropdown_Menus.asp > > I believe they are compatible with ie5 Win and Mac > > But if you ask me, I'd say the best approach would be to use a good JS menu > rather than a "pure CSS solution". > > -- > Regards, > Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com > > > > > > > > > *** > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm > Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > *** > > *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Suckerfish and IE 5 with no Javascript
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of James Jeffery Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 2:49 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Suckerfish and IE 5 with no Javascript Maybe i am being a little bit picky with this. I have a suckerfish dropdown, as i feel it is the best approach for cross-browser (but not A grade) dropdowns. The website i am working on is a youth centre's. The target audience is the community, which can be young or very old. The very old "may" be using IE 5 on older computers (at a guess). If they have JS disabled and are using IE 5 then they cannot view the navigation links. Whats your views on the best way around this? I was thinking about sing PHP to determine what browser the user is using and if JS is enabled. If its IE 5 and it is not enabled then when a user clicks a link from the navigation menu the page will load but under the navigation will be another div that lists the links uder that sub heading. - | nav nav nav nav nav nav nav | - | sub link sub link | | sub link sub link | | sub link sub link | - all the other content goes on as normal Only users who are using a browser that does not support the hover psudeo selector on anything other than a elements will see that box. It will be generated using PHP before the page loads. I was thinking about doing that for all the users, and have that displaying regardless, but that may add confusion to the user experience i feel. Anyone ideas? Hi James, I have these two: http://tjkdesign.com/articles/Pure_CSS_Dropdown_Menus.asp I believe they are compatible with ie5 Win and Mac But if you ask me, I'd say the best approach would be to use a good JS menu rather than a "pure CSS solution". -- Regards, Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Suckerfish and IE 5 with no Javascript
Joe said: > Therefore if javascript is off, any descended subnav should display in it's > expanded state. I agree with this pattern for some scenerios, for example with tabbed panels, but (depending on the design) surely with drop down navigation it would cause usability issues with the expanded states for all drop downs overlapping each other and other content *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Suckerfish and IE 5 with no Javascript
This is not a IE5 question, it is whether the navigation element should depend on Javascript. Navigation should not rely on javascript to display. Therefore if javascript is off, any descended subnav should display in it's expanded state. Plenty of examples of this all over the net o no need to go to far into it. joe On Jun 6 2008, at 15:47, Rachel Radford wrote: It sounds like a lot of work for something that you are purely guessing? As your audience is already part of the community that you're doing the website for, it should be easy to find out a typical setup. Many "old" people I know aren't using IE5 - either they aren't using anything or they have a computer that someone else, such as their children or grandchildren, has set up for them and is relatively new. Put the work into finding out more about your audience, as IE5 may not even need to be supported to that level. As a backup I would put a list of links to all the subpages on the parent page (where the drop downs originate from), so if there does happen to be someone using IE5 with JS turned off, then they can still easily navigate to all the pages (although it adds another step). Rach :o) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of James Jeffery Sent: Fri 06/06/2008 10:48 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Suckerfish and IE 5 with no Javascript Maybe i am being a little bit picky with this. I have a suckerfish dropdown, as i feel it is the best approach for cross-browser (but not A grade) dropdowns. The website i am working on is a youth centre's. The target audience is the community, which can be young or very old. The very old "may" be using IE 5 on older computers (at a guess). If they have JS disabled and are using IE 5 then they cannot view the navigation links. Whats your views on the best way around this? I was thinking about sing PHP to determine what browser the user is using and if JS is enabled. If its IE 5 and it is not enabled then when a user clicks a link from the navigation menu the page will load but under the navigation will be another div that lists the links uder that sub heading. - | nav nav nav nav nav nav nav | - | sub link sub link | | sub link sub link | | sub link sub link | - all the other content goes on as normal Only users who are using a browser that does not support the hover psudeo selector on anything other than a elements will see that box. It will be generated using PHP before the page loads. I was thinking about doing that for all the users, and have that displaying regardless, but that may add confusion to the user experience i feel. Anyone ideas? *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.typingthevoid.com www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Suckerfish and IE 5 with no Javascript
It sounds like a lot of work for something that you are purely guessing? As your audience is already part of the community that you're doing the website for, it should be easy to find out a typical setup. Many "old" people I know aren't using IE5 - either they aren't using anything or they have a computer that someone else, such as their children or grandchildren, has set up for them and is relatively new. Put the work into finding out more about your audience, as IE5 may not even need to be supported to that level. As a backup I would put a list of links to all the subpages on the parent page (where the drop downs originate from), so if there does happen to be someone using IE5 with JS turned off, then they can still easily navigate to all the pages (although it adds another step). Rach :o) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of James Jeffery Sent: Fri 06/06/2008 10:48 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Suckerfish and IE 5 with no Javascript Maybe i am being a little bit picky with this. I have a suckerfish dropdown, as i feel it is the best approach for cross-browser (but not A grade) dropdowns. The website i am working on is a youth centre's. The target audience is the community, which can be young or very old. The very old "may" be using IE 5 on older computers (at a guess). If they have JS disabled and are using IE 5 then they cannot view the navigation links. Whats your views on the best way around this? I was thinking about sing PHP to determine what browser the user is using and if JS is enabled. If its IE 5 and it is not enabled then when a user clicks a link from the navigation menu the page will load but under the navigation will be another div that lists the links uder that sub heading. - | nav nav nav nav nav nav nav | - | sub link sub link | | sub link sub link | | sub link sub link | - all the other content goes on as normal Only users who are using a browser that does not support the hover psudeo selector on anything other than a elements will see that box. It will be generated using PHP before the page loads. I was thinking about doing that for all the users, and have that displaying regardless, but that may add confusion to the user experience i feel. Anyone ideas? *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Suckerfish and IE 5 with no Javascript
Progressive enhancement is not only about old browsers, it is also about other devices. How do mobie phones and other handheld devices (ie PSP, Nintendo DS etc) browsers deal with hover pseudo selector. I would definitely go with Darren, progressive enhancement and create sub navigation pages, over Rick, Conditional Comments and building fallback for specific browser in your pages, because you never know what people with use to visit your site. Nick *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Suckerfish and IE 5 with no Javascript
On 6 Jun 2008, at 10:48, James Jeffery wrote: I have a suckerfish dropdown, as i feel it is the best approach for cross-browser (but not A grade) dropdowns. The website i am working on is a youth centre's. The target audience is the community, which can be young or very old. The very old "may" be using IE 5 on older computers (at a guess). If they have JS disabled and are using IE 5 then they cannot view the navigation links. Whats your views on the best way around this? I was thinking about sing PHP to determine what browser the user is using and if JS is enabled. If its IE 5 and it is not enabled then when a user clicks a link from the navigation menu the page will load but under the navigation will be another div that lists the links uder that sub heading. - | nav nav nav nav nav nav nav | - | sub link sub link | | sub link sub link | | sub link sub link | - all the other content goes on as normal Only users who are using a browser that does not support the hover psudeo selector on anything other than a elements will see that box. It will be generated using PHP before the page loads. I was thinking about doing that for all the users, and have that displaying regardless, but that may add confusion to the user experience i feel. Anyone ideas? James, If I understand you correctly you want your 'fallback' navigation system to appear only if the user is using IE5 and does NOT have javascript enabled, right? How about putting your fallback elements inside a conditional comment targeting IE5, and also inside that comment include a call to a javascript that removes those elements. That way, the fallback elements only appear in IE5 and even then they get expunged if javascript is enabled. If the user has anything other than IE5 the elements are never seen and the javascript is not called. AFAIK Microsoft has not made any mention of Conditional Comments being retired in future versions of IE, so it should be fairly futureproof. -- Rick Lecoat *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Suckerfish and IE 5 with no Javascript
No i havn't herd of prog. enhancement. See you do learn something new everyday. Thanks. On 6/6/08, Darren West <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > James, > > Have you heard of progressive enhancement? > > - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_Enhancement > > I would link all the 'nav' items to root pages that include the sub > links so if JS is unavailable a usable experience is provided for all, > then if JS is available, enhance the experience by displaying the 'sub > links' in a dropdown ... > > > Darren > > > *** > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm > Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > *** > > *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Suckerfish and IE 5 with no Javascript
James, Have you heard of progressive enhancement? - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_Enhancement I would link all the 'nav' items to root pages that include the sub links so if JS is unavailable a usable experience is provided for all, then if JS is available, enhance the experience by displaying the 'sub links' in a dropdown ... Darren *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Suckerfish and IE 5 with no Javascript
Maybe i am being a little bit picky with this. I have a suckerfish dropdown, as i feel it is the best approach for cross-browser (but not A grade) dropdowns. The website i am working on is a youth centre's. The target audience is the community, which can be young or very old. The very old "may" be using IE 5 on older computers (at a guess). If they have JS disabled and are using IE 5 then they cannot view the navigation links. Whats your views on the best way around this? I was thinking about sing PHP to determine what browser the user is using and if JS is enabled. If its IE 5 and it is not enabled then when a user clicks a link from the navigation menu the page will load but under the navigation will be another div that lists the links uder that sub heading. - | nav nav nav nav nav nav nav | - | sub link sub link | | sub link sub link | | sub link sub link | - all the other content goes on as normal Only users who are using a browser that does not support the hover psudeo selector on anything other than a elements will see that box. It will be generated using PHP before the page loads. I was thinking about doing that for all the users, and have that displaying regardless, but that may add confusion to the user experience i feel. Anyone ideas? *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
