Re: [Gendergap] Addressing incivility (was: men on lists)

On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 9:55 PM, Daniel and Elizabeth Case < danc...@frontiernet.net> wrote: > > ​>A major problem with our dispute-resolution processes is that the > person being harassed has >to endure more harassment to draw attention to > the problem. > > This is, of course, hardly unique to

Re: [Gendergap] Addressing incivility (was: men on lists)

Daniel and Elizabeth Case wrote: ​>A major problem with our dispute-resolution processes is that the person being harassed has >to endure more harassment to draw attention to the problem. This is, of course, hardly unique to Wikipedia or even online communities in general, I think. >I have l

Re: [Gendergap] Addressing incivility (was: men on lists)

​>A major problem with our dispute-resolution processes is that the person being harassed has >to endure more harassment to draw attention to the problem. This is, of course, hardly unique to Wikipedia or even online communities in general, I think. >I have long thought the Foundation ought t

Re: [Gendergap] Addressing incivility (was: men on lists)

On 4 July 2014 00:35, Sarah wrote: > On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 11:23 AM, Valerie Aurora > wrote: > >> I agree, policies against harassment can be co-opted to further harass >> marginalized people and there is a long history of this in other areas >> (see SLAPP and anti-SLAPP in U.S. law for example

Re: [Gendergap] Addressing incivility (was: men on lists)

On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 11:23 AM, Valerie Aurora wrote: > I agree, policies against harassment can be co-opted to further harass > marginalized people and there is a long history of this in other areas > (see SLAPP and anti-SLAPP in U.S. law for example). > ​ .​ > .. [snip] ... > ​A major problem

Re: [Gendergap] Addressing incivility (was: men on lists)

When I was a little girl in the 1950s and 60s we were told to be passive and pray for what we wanted. Thank heavens self-actualization and womens liberation came along and we discovered "well-behaved women seldom make history." (Nicely covered at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurel_Thatcher_Ul

Re: [Gendergap] men on lists

On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 11:31 PM, Leigh Honeywell wrote: > > People's personal experiences don't need studies to back them up. I was thinking about a proper documentation of how it has happened - should be written. Even I know of instances in techtalk list. Best A. Mani A. Mani [Last_Name.

Re: [Gendergap] WikiWomen at Wikimania

Awesome! A few of us are starting to plot and will share back a link soon for everyone to contribute to & help promote. On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 11:58 AM, Sydney Poore wrote: > I like that time too (lunch on Sunday) if an adequate space to accommodate > a large group of women is available then. I

Re: [Gendergap] Addressing incivility (was: men on lists)

Dear Val, I've now read and reread your message (quoted below) several times, and want to thank you for putting this important concept in such clear and tangible terms. I have just one thing to add: It seems to me that this points to a broader issue that's deeply connected with the social dynami

Re: [Gendergap] Addressing incivility (was: men on lists)

There was an attempt to address the civility problem on Wikipedia English with a top down approach at the very start of Sue Gardner's time at WMF. Sue, Jimmy Wales, myself, and a group of half dozen other people talked about it in a closed group. It failed because a top down approach is not effecti

Re: [Gendergap] Addressing incivility (was: men on lists)

Even if it is an en-wiki only issue, it's having a clear impact on editor retention and therefore the long-term sustainability of the project. I think trying to fix that is easy to dismiss as "micromanagement" but sometimes it turns out that fixing the big picture /does/ require organizational lead

Re: [Gendergap] Addressing incivility (was: men on lists)

Well, here's the issue. It's never been clear to me whether this is a WMF-wide issue or it's an English Wikipedia specific issue. The overwhelming majority of people participating on this list work almost exclusively on enwiki, and almost every single experience discussed here involves enwiki. A

Re: [Gendergap] Addressing incivility (was: men on lists)

The more I hear about this, the more I think this is something that WMF needs to address at an institutional level (Board etc.) to resolve these process issues and loopholes. Has this ever been taken "up the chain"? -Leigh On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 11:51 AM, Ryan Kaldari wrote: > On Thu, Jul 3, 201

Re: [Gendergap] WikiWomen at Wikimania

I like that time too (lunch on Sunday) if an adequate space to accommodate a large group of women is available then. I expect that we will have a large turn out this year if we do a good job of publicizing it. Sydney Poore User:FloNight Wikipedian in Residence at Cochrane Collaboration On Thu, J

Re: [Gendergap] Addressing incivility (was: men on lists)

On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 11:28 AM, Risker wrote: > > You know, I sat on Arbcom for five years, and there were several occasions > when I practically begged those complaining about the behaviour of certain > individuals to initiate a casebut nobody wanted to do that... > Well, you know I did ac

Re: [Gendergap] Addressing incivility (was: men on lists)

On 3 July 2014 13:40, Ryan Kaldari wrote: > On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 1:50 AM, Pine W wrote: > >> Hi Moriel and others, >> >> Do you have a list of "realistic changes" in mind for the community? >> > >> I hear almost no one say that the typical state of (in)civility on wiki >> or on Wikimedia-l i

Re: [Gendergap] Addressing incivility (was: men on lists)

On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 10:56 AM, Carol Moore dc wrote: > On 7/3/2014 1:40 PM, Ryan Kaldari wrote: >> >> >> The problem on en.wiki at least is that a vocal minority effectively >> prevent any enforcement of the civility policy. > > > The other problem is double standard enforcement. A bunch of guys

Re: [Gendergap] men on lists

+1 to Leigh. Anyone involved with that mailing list (or others, like a few I am on) can vouch for it. Sarah On Jul 3, 2014 11:02 AM, "Leigh Honeywell" wrote: > A. Mani, > > People's personal experiences don't need studies to back them up. > > -Leigh > > On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 10:55 AM, A. Mani

Re: [Gendergap] men on lists

A. Mani, People's personal experiences don't need studies to back them up. -Leigh On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 10:55 AM, A. Mani wrote: > On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 4:03 AM, Valerie Aurora > wrote: >> and our mailing lists >> were more enjoyable and fulfilling for men looking for emotional >> boosts tha

Re: [Gendergap] Addressing incivility (was: men on lists)

On 7/3/2014 1:40 PM, Ryan Kaldari wrote: The problem on en.wiki at least is that a vocal minority effectively prevent any enforcement of the civility policy. The other problem is double standard enforcement. A bunch of guys may complain about mild incivility by a female and she'll get warned

Re: [Gendergap] men on lists

On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 4:03 AM, Valerie Aurora wrote: > and our mailing lists > were more enjoyable and fulfilling for men looking for emotional > boosts than for women looking for a supportive environment where they > could talk about Linux. Do you have a study backing this statement? Best A

[Gendergap] Addressing incivility (was: men on lists)

On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 1:50 AM, Pine W wrote: > Hi Moriel and others, > > Do you have a list of "realistic changes" in mind for the community? > > I hear almost no one say that the typical state of (in)civility on wiki or > on Wikimedia-l is good enough or that people are being hypersensitive, s

Re: [Gendergap] WikiWomen at Wikimania

I think that'd be the easiest way to insert into the process for us. We can do it any time of day - just state any preferences on the meetup page and we'll do our best to find an appropriate space. *Edward Saperia* Conference Director Wikimania London email • fac

Re: [Gendergap] men on lists

Our current IEG grantee for research on female editing, Mssemantics (Amanda), may have something to say, although she may want to wait until she feels she has adequate data from her research. In any case, I'm going to encourage Mssemantics to participate on the discussion on this list or at lea

Re: [Gendergap] WikiWomen at Wikimania

Traditionally it has been a WikiWomen's lunch, and we generally like to have a dedicated space at the conference for it. Ellie tells me she's looking into a room at the venue - I'd suggested lunchtime on Sunday August 10th, right before the gender workshops begin. Is a meetup page the expected way

[Gendergap] WikiWomen at Wikimania

Hello, Would anyone coming to Wikimania like to volunteer to host a meetup for WikiWomen? I think this has happened at most Wikimanias, but nobody has set one up for the coming one yet. https://wikimania2014.wikimedia.org/wiki/Meetups *Edward Saperia* Conference Director Wikimania London

Re: [Gendergap] men on lists

On 7/3/2014 1:40 AM, Pine W wrote: Anyway, if some of the WikiWomen want to set up a relatively private and supportive space just for WikiWomen, I'd say that sounds like an idea worth trying. If there is some need for resources, IdeaLab and the grants programs stand ready to hear requests. (

Re: [Gendergap] Moderation and the future of Gendergap-L

Actually that wasn't too bad a closing reply, since too often real complaints are just ignored and there is no close. Also, the good news is that *if* someone on wikipedia had linked to that article and said that "Sue Gardner is not good like this article says blah blah", there might be some h

Re: [Gendergap] men on lists

Hi Moriel and others, Do you have a list of "realistic changes" in mind for the community? I hear almost no one say that the typical state of (in)civility on wiki or on Wikimedia-l is good enough or that people are being hypersensitive, so I get the sense that there's a lot of agreement that we h