x27;t talk to me.
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anyway.)
If anyone else does want to do the above, great. I'll be happy to help
to the extent that I'm competent to. But that is unlikely to include
dealing with the rump side of it.
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mproved to the point where this can coexist
with user-initiated ktracing, which doesn't sound likely in view of
what you said.
So I still call it a bad idea. For what that's worth.
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ad idea; if it breaks the user's
ktrace, I think it is a moderately bad idea. (I haven't had to ktrace
make very often, but when I have there hasn't been much else that would
be suitable.)
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iles scattered all over the tree
sounds like a recipe for serious headaches.
If and when it looks worth the effort, I can always back out the
removal commit and clean up the result. But SCM_MEMORY looks like the
more valuable thing for my use cases for the moment.
/~\ The ASCII
27;t just work the way it does in the kernel?
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operating as designed. They send
vigorously - see busy_a() and busy_b().
Interestingly, I have since tested it on (mutant) 4.0.1 and it works
just fine, even under stress. I can't as test it on 1.4T because the
program is written to the broken CMSG_* API, which 1.4T predates.
/~\ The A
hose should lead to printed complaints.
Could I possibly get you to ktrace it or some such to find out what's
making it die? (Warning, unless it exits very soon after startup, it
will probably produce a lot of ktrace data.)
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X
e even crashes, if I try this on someone else's production
machine. I have numerous other changes in my kernels, but none that I
would _expect_ to have any bearing on this.
The test program is on ftp.rodents-montreal.org in
/mouse/misc/unfdstress.c. It did compile for me on 8.0 (I test-buil
al bugs).
How many of those "real bugs" exist only because C11 gave compilers new
latitude to produce unexpected code?
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eck entire FS on the mount because that will
> make mount process very unuseful.
No, of course not. I doubt anyone thinks that would be a good idea. I
would not expect that checking to happen until the inode in question
actually gets used.
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\ / R
filesystems? Corruption should panic:
mount -o onerror=panic /dev/wd2a /builds
Of course, actually making that work, well, I don't have any
suggestions for cat-bellers. Unless and until I have a significant
amount of spare time, it's all just "it might be nice if".
the "can't unmount" syndrome - the post says
it can't be unmounted, but blames umount, not unmount, so it's not
clear to me whether that's userland's fault or not.
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7;t you have more or less the same issue with every other non-free
inode in the filesystem? The only thing I can see that's special about
the root inode in this regard is that it is the only inode that is used
immediately upon mount.
/~\ The ASCII Mouse
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hat, when it comes time to put real data at that spot in the
file, a block will be available. Which block it is is not important.
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cating-and-filling any of
it.
I was imagining that a zero-but-reserved indirect block would be
treated as representing not a block full of zeros but a block full of
the zero-but-reserved magic value.
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involve an on-disk change.
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very other event.
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der problem than necessary.
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pect to other processors: ADAWI
(16-bit-aligned 16-bit add), BB{SS,CC}I (test-and-{set/clear} single
bits), and {INS,REM}Q{H,T}I (queue insert/remove at head/tail).)
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atomicity is fundamentally
an architecture-dependent notion.
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ernel, even if the disk is broken. I see changes of
this sort as defense against broken disks if nothing else.
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sum
of the allocations is as small as possible, rather than to allocate
maximum-sized buffers, whose total size will be as big as possible?
I'm presumably missing something here, but what?
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ng new, just to be different?
No, not to be different. To be better.
Except, of course, that (I assume) you don't think it _would_ be
better.
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> however, disklabel fails at >2TiB for 512 byte sector,
If _that_'s what you're concerned about, then just grow the relevant
fields (and, presumably, change the magic number).
Or fix sector sizes other than 512 bytes.
/~\ The ASCII Mouse
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go there. The current state is a
rather ad-hoc mishmash of all three of the above, with all the issues
that inconsistency brings.
Personally, I don't like (1), because I find such tools too useful; I'm
not sure whether I prefer (2) or (3).
/~\ The ASCII Mou
c. mathematics major, computer science minor.
Programming since the late '70s, been making my living programming
and/or sysadminning since 1984. Been involved with UNIX as a user
since BSD 4.1c, with NetBSD since shortly before the split that led to
OpenBSD.
My portfolio? Look for "der
quot; or not, but rather the arguments presented.) Your
arguments are convincing, but what they are convincing me, for one, of
is not what you appear to want to convince people of.
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le actual use.
Except the "little actual use" is, apparently, nothing but various wild
guesses at the actual proportion. Based on what I've seen in this
thread, it looks as though the use rate is around 1/2 (two users, two
non-users) - but, of course, that has no statistical vali
e any mechanisms in place that would allow
tracking compat usage.
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xecve(). (In my experience, a paged-in executable continues to
work as long as it stays paged in even if its backing file is
destroyed; perhaps that's changed in -current.)
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et one let you corrupt the fs.
Depends on what operations are defined on such a descriptor, and how
they are implemented.
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[top-posting damage repaired manually]
>> If you can get a file desriptor to a symlink, it will work; I don't
>> think that we have a way to do this now.
> FYI - XNU has O_SYMLINK for this.
What operations does it support on fds open onto symlinks?
/~\ The ASCII
ames pointing to it, at
least not unless it's got no other references to it (in which case it
would be freed if it had no names).
Given the list of smart people I've seen discussing this, I'm
presumably just missing something, but what?
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, all of those point in the same direction: close it iff CLOEXEC is
set on it.
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able for this?
Certainly. I would count that as "something capabilityish" - after
all, assuming it's per-process, in what ways, aside from the APIs used
to control it, does that differ from a capability?
Or, to return for a moment to my roots,
$ SET PROC/PRIV=FEXECVE
/~\ The ASC
inary
> with a new set of libraries.
How does fexecve() make anything possible here that wasn't possible
before? It seems to me that updating .so libraries has always carried
this risk, so I must be missing something.
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> Here's a simple fexecve(2) implementation. Comments?
Strikes me as a very good thing to have optionally available.
I'd need to think a good deal more to decide whether I think it's a
reasonable thing to have enabled by default.
/~\ The ASCII
ecause I was really talking about link(2), not ln(1).
I've since verified that changing 1 to 0 in the do_sys_link() call made
by sys_link() produces the old behaviour from ln without touching
userland, so it wasn't a kernel change required by a userland change.
/~\ The ASCII
ur, but that means little.
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it.
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use cryptography, and even then only those so sloppily
designed that they (a) have no fallback for systems that don't export a
strong random-number interface and (b) trust that interface to perform
up to its advertised design specs.
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> "Just get a 128GB RAM 32 core machine like me, and then you can use
> netbsd"
Hasn't that been NetBSD's stance since 2011-03-30? (Okay, it's an
exaggeration, but not all that much of an exaggeration.)
/~\ The ASCII Mouse
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etBSD/xen's /dev, or what?
I would argue against the first one: just because something is being
misused is not, in itself, a reason to get rid of it entirely, at least
not when it still has good extant uses.
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persists
across reboots. We don't currently have any way to, say, let anyone in
group sniffer tcpdump -i wm0, except by making tcpdump setuid and
having it perform the permissions check manually. It should be just
"chmod 640 /dev/wm0; chgrp sniffer /dev/wm0" (and should persist across
reboots).
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e're discussing here is a pseudo-ln for that
other namespace. The _right_ fix, it seems to me, is to move network
interfaces into /dev (possibly in a subdirectory?), where they should
have been all along, and then use ln, ln -s, mv, whatever, there.
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s, if that's what the person actually doing the work
implements
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descriptions.
Of course, this means special handling for a zero-length description,
or else that a zero-length description is different from no
description, but I think that is the lower price.
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is entirely
reasonable to speak of understanding the code's behaviour in many cases
when it is, formally, undefined.
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OS, for your own safety. PF has no future in NetBSD.
It doesn't? It seems to me, from the lack of consensus I'm seeing
here, that that remains to be seen.
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lso doesn't actually do
what I want done.
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l that simply didn't exist in the code we had. I had
no way to tell whether this was simple version skew, bugs, or what, and
in any case had no idea what, if anything, could be done about it.
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ng..and if I just knew
something additional the answer to that would be obvious?
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you hung out?
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;t care deeply enough about the VAX to rearrange the rest of
my life around that as first priority. If that's what you mean, then,
yes, probably nobody cares deeply about it. But I don't think I care
deeply about _anything_ in computers by that criterion.
/~\ The ASCII
in my contributions;
they certainly have in the last decade or two demosntrated a notable
lack of care about the things that attracted me to past NetBSD.
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; for convenience of language, design a SPARC ABI which is in some
>> ways similar to the Ultrix ABI for VAX, then use that to test
>> COMPAT_ULTRIX on SPARC.
But you say it's "[n]ot quite that". Could you explain the
difference(s) you see to me? I'm missing them.
NetBSD for good, by making it a perpetually
> obsolete OS that struggles to implement features of 2020 because of
> the burden from 1990.
Nice! Cogent, convincing, well-reasoned argument, that.
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rough approximation. How
long was it VAX was broken because there was something wrong that
showed up on native builds but not cross-builds? People got used to
thinking that because it cross-built, it was fine. It's one reason I
insist on self-hosting on all my machines.
/~\ The ASCII
(which was the case AFAIK), what would it even mean to be compatible
with it?
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aller transistor, but still
human-scale.
> its sad to say that directly, but as businessman, NetBSD is not an
> option for now.
Then why are you here?
NetBSD is an option for at least two companies I know of.
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as any Ethernet, just using (very)
different layers 1 and 2.
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nd I see no reason to avoid it except habit.
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est error after each call, instead of once after the whole
sequence, you save two writes. What am I missing?
(The reading of val1 and val2 in the first case, and the calls to
ufetch_64 in the second case, may be switched, but that doesn't affect
the counts.)
/~\ The ASCII
ing implementation
infrastructure, such as even malloc(), never mind a kernel.
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can generate only ENOSPC
and EINVAL? Reading the source, or looking at documentation, or what?
In particular, if it's documentation, don't trust it too much; I've
seen documentation lie far too often.
Also, don't forget that successful calls normally don't touch errn
sual setups like two I know of
for an embedded product where /sbin/init is not a normal init(8) and
/dev has only eight entries in one case or thirty in the other.
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simply return the abstract return value in retval[0]
like most other syscalls that return a simple integer value, but for a
special case like this to have survived this long, I can't help feeling
there must be _something_ behind it.
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iven off an interrupt or
what is close to irrelevant; getting the bits into the kernel machinery
via mmap rather than write still provides both speed and latency
advantages - just not as much as if it were the hardware's output
buffer being mapped into user VM.
/~\ The ASCII
s depends on your
repeat length dividing the ring buffer size.
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x27;t think anyone is arguing that programs should not be able to
work with pre-1970 times. The most I've seen anyone say is that time_t
need not be suitable for representing such times.
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rned, you can get
much the same effect by making time_t a (positive) unsigned value and
redefining the epoch to be 1901-12-13 20:45:54 UTC.
But, if you're going to redefine the epoch, there are a whole lot of
options available.
/~\ The ASCII Mouse
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as using the
undecorated 64-bit type.
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? - so I don't know
what it's trying to defend against. I can easily imagine some uses,
but for the ones I've come up with so far, timing leaks are completely
irrelevant.)
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complex.
Some asymmetric crypto algorithms require nothing more complex than
large-number arithmetic. (Slow, yes, but not particularly complex.)
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e between times is an interval, or duration, not a time,
> and should not be stored in a time_t, ever.
So, what type _should_ be used for it?
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time_t, you can't
go before late 1901 even with full support for negative time_t anyway.)
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n? Or am I missing something else?
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t when specifically told to" behaviour is
probably more useful than the documented (and actual) behaviour.
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_something_ MD, presumably the driver, has to be involved if
MSI is to be used.
And how can a driver do this without knowing whether it's supported?
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d get overwritten by garbage which happens to contain
reasonable-looking type and size values?
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F-1 depending on how closely they followed
> BSD 4.3.
That's pretty much my own perspective on COMPAT_43. Probably should
have been called COMPAT_BSD43 or some such
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ngs like COMPAT_* and ddb, but
I suspect it may well be worth trying trimming it back. I don't know
what made the biggest difference for me, but I suspect it was the reams
and reams of drivers I knew I didn't need.
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X
powerful tools"? I haven't been following the state of
the art in open-source profiling tools.)
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rtially understood the underlying mechanisms, so perhaps it
doesn't entirely count.
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2 and presumably everything in between.)
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s
me as unlikely enough that I wouldn't even bother checking if it were
me in that situation.
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they exist. Perhaps one could help?
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>> I have recently been working on adding a new boot flag for disabling
>> ASLR during boot. [...useful for some userland stuff...]
What's wrong with just configuring a kernel without any ASLR at all for
such work?
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A
compiler that doesn't, whether because it's broken or because it takes
advantage of latitude in the languageg spec, simply is not suitable for
that use.
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ined behaviour is a fool's dream.
Programs such as undefined-behaviour detectors are tools to serve us,
not shackles to bind us. Intelligence should be applied when using
their results, including not expecting portability from inherently
nonportable code.
/~\ The ASCII
d be produced.
Similarly, sets should depend on the main build.
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in interesting ways for full world builds if you run into a
> problem, cvs up and try an update build again.
I submit that, if that is the case, the build is already broken and you
just haven't yet tripped over a case that makes it unmistakeable.
/~\ The ASCII
o work based on open-source drivers, principally NetBSD's.
I've got an inquiry in to Realtek, but past experiences with vendors
make me not too optimistic about getting help from that quarter.
Any pointers?
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il, that's far less true of i2c.
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en to know?
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dor:product. (Of course,
I'm sure there are lots of buses out there I've never heard of, or
don't know enough about.)
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