Re: Confused about ORDA

[Keisuke Miyako via 4D_Tech]

for a fair comparison,
I think the "query path" feature should be activated on both sides (ORDA and 
QUERY).
you will get the time required to complete the query.

surrounding a block of code with "Milliseconds" (if that is how you got the 
measurements) does not feel right in this context.

> Doing the query with ORDA takes 175 milliseconds.
> Doing the query with QUERY takes 4 milliseconds.
>
> Why??
>
> ORDA:
> $oQRYoption:=New object("queryPlan";False;"queryPath";False)



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Re: selected rows for a collection listbox

[Keisuke Miyako via 4D_Tech]

to elaborate:

since you already have ways to interrogate the remote PostgreSQL data source 
during the "On Display Detail" event,
I was thinking perhaps you could add a custom "position" property to the 
current item during the same event
for later access (I assume you only access the remote data source once, when 
the current item is null).

but I still have the feeling that completing a null-populated collection "on 
demand" is not going to be in any ways more efficient
compared to having a pre-populated placeholder collection (especially if the 
number of lines is only in the range of several thousands).

in any case, this is a very unconventional usage of collection list boxes.
my understanding is that a non-ORDA listbox is intended for usage with local 
arrays, not remote data sources.

a fully functional lazy loading system should fetch and cache several lines at 
a time and clear them to keep memory usage under control.

the call should be asynchronous to prevent the UI from blocking,
it should also cancel out redundant calls,
perhaps by using a complex system based on CALL WORKER and CALL FORM.

it's not just a question of having a "selected position collection" property.

2018/07/30 12:42、Keisuke Miyako via 4D_Tech 
<4d_tech@lists.4d.com>のメール:

but I respect your decision.

have you tried the "Displayed line number" function in your "On Display Detail" 
code?

http://doc.4d.com/4Dv16/4D/16.3/Displayed-line-number.301-3652452.en.html



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RE: Confused about ORDA

[lists via 4D_Tech]

Rudy,

I think part of the reason might be that with ORDA you actually have the data 
loaded and ready to use in the resulting collection, where as with QUERY you 
have a selection of records, but to use any of the data you still need to load 
it somehow.

Also, using QUERY, regardless of speed, allow you access to one selection of 
records only, where as with ORDA, you can just execute the same query with 
different parameters in to a different collection and have as many different 
selection of records at the same time.

I would think that a real test should be a complete task rather than one 
isolated part, and then make a decision as to which option makes more sense for 
that given task.

Regards,

Lahav

-Original Message-
From: 4D_Tech <4d_tech-boun...@lists.4d.com> On Behalf Of Two Way 
Communications via 4D_Tech
Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2018 5:47 AM
To: 4D iNug Technical <4d_tech@lists.4d.com>
Cc: Two Way Communications 
Subject: Confused about ORDA

I am a bit confused… isn’t ORDA supposed to be faster than traditional queries?

I did a test with a table containing 120,000 records. The query is on 4 indexed 
fields and returns 54,000 records.

Doing the query with ORDA takes 175 milliseconds.
Doing the query with QUERY takes 4 milliseconds.

Why??

ORDA:
$oQRYoption:=New object("queryPlan";False;"queryPath";False)

$oTLD:=ds.T_Loggers_data.query("TLR.FK_REAP =:1 AND TLD_timestamp >=:2 AND 
TLD_timestamp <=:3 AND Excluded 
=:4";[REAP_sections]FK_REAP;$TSsectionStart;$TSsectionEnd;False;$oQRYoption)
 


Traditional:
QUERY([T_Loggers_data];[T_loggers_readings]FK_REAP=[REAP_sections]FK_REAP;*)

QUERY([T_Loggers_data];[T_Loggers_data]TLD_timestamp>=$TSsectionStart;*)
QUERY([T_Loggers_data];[T_Loggers_data]TLD_timestamp<=$TSsectionEnd;*)
QUERY([T_Loggers_data];[T_loggers_readings]Excluded=False)


Rudy Mortier
Two Way Communications bvba 

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Re: selected rows for a collection listbox

[Keisuke Miyako via 4D_Tech]

well that's a shame...
it sound like a self-imposed design restriction,
I fail to see how it can deliver any substantial benefits.

but I respect your decision.

have you tried the "Displayed line number" function in your "On Display Detail" 
code?

http://doc.4d.com/4Dv16/4D/16.3/Displayed-line-number.301-3652452.en.html

2018/07/30 12:34、John DeSoi via 4D_Tech 
<4d_tech@lists.4d.com>のメール:

I want to leave the collection elements as Null and only load them on demand 
(displayed or the user selected them to do something). I'm trying to avoid 
creating objects for thousands of rows that will never be displayed or used.


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Re: selected rows for a collection listbox

[John DeSoi via 4D_Tech]

> On Jul 29, 2018, at 9:41 PM, Keisuke Miyako via 4D_Tech 
> <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
> 
> the beauty of working with collections (in ORDA) is that
> when you operate via member methods or "For each",
> the elements are loaded on demand.
> there is no need to work with the "On Display Detail" event.

Yes, nice model and works great if you are using ORDA. I'm not using ORDA here 
and want to take advantage of the same type of on demand loading. 4D thought it 
was important enough to tell you the row number of the selected collection 
item, but only the first one, not all of them. We have LISTBOX SELECT ROW which 
can work with any kind of listbox, but to get the selected rows there are 3 
different methods depending on what type of listbox is used. Would be nice to 
have LISTBOX SELECTED ROWS(array or collection) that would work on any listbox 
type. 

> how exactly did you populate the collection that you display in the listbox?
> it sounds like you have a place holder object for each line.

Yes.

> 
> why not use the "map" member function to add a custom "position (offset)" 
> property?

I want to leave the collection elements as Null and only load them on demand 
(displayed or the user selected them to do something). I'm trying to avoid 
creating objects for thousands of rows that will never be displayed or used.


John DeSoi, Ph.D.

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Re: v17 PDF-Manuals

[Bob Miller via 4D_Tech]

Re> I demand PDF manuals!

Ditto.  Laurent promised we could have PDF manuals at the Atlanta summit.
He could not see why their production was a problem. That hasn’t happened.

I’ve held out or skipped deploying several versions until PDF documentation
was available, and I’m doing the same for v17.

While I’m at it, I really disagree with the whole “exclusive” blog-doc
methodology of the R-series, too. The blog is great but does NOT replace
the need for PDF release notes for each R release.

-Bob Miller


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Re: selected rows for a collection listbox

[Keisuke Miyako via 4D_Tech]

normally with collections, you shouldn't have to care about the position of 
each element.
it's how "For each" works and member functions such as "map" or "filter" works.

"to operate on the selected rows as a collection implies that every row has to 
be loaded"

collection data source of a list box can be an entity selection (ORDA) or a 
local collection (array of objects).

the former is comparable to a (named) selection listbox, with lazy loading and 
all,
but the latter is basically a generic version of the classic array-based list 
box.

so yes, I suppose you're right, if you are not using ORDA.

but that is not an innate constraint of the collection type.
rather, it is typical of an object that uses an array as its data source.

the beauty of working with collections (in ORDA) is that
when you operate via member methods or "For each",
the elements are loaded on demand.
there is no need to work with the "On Display Detail" event.

---

how exactly did you populate the collection that you display in the listbox?
it sounds like you have a place holder object for each line.

why not use the "map" member function to add a custom "position (offset)" 
property?

2018/07/30 11:20、John DeSoi via 4D_Tech 
<4d_tech@lists.4d.com>のメール:

It is not ORDA. I'm displaying a server side cursor from PostgreSQL. The select 
result may have hundreds of thousands of rows. I can scroll that nicely in 4D 
using On Display Detail to load only the visible data. But to operate on the 
selected rows as a collection implies that every row has to be loaded. If I 
could get just the selected *row numbers*, I could load those on demand.



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Re: selected rows for a collection listbox

[John DeSoi via 4D_Tech]

It is not ORDA. I'm displaying a server side cursor from PostgreSQL. The select 
result may have hundreds of thousands of rows. I can scroll that nicely in 4D 
using On Display Detail to load only the visible data. But to operate on the 
selected rows as a collection implies that every row has to be loaded. If I 
could get just the selected *row numbers*, I could load those on demand.

John DeSoi, Ph.D.
 



> On Jul 29, 2018, at 8:47 PM, Keisuke Miyako via 4D_Tech 
> <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
> 
> a collection of objects rather than the row numbers makes this impractical.
> 
> impractical how?
> 
> ORDA is lazy loading by nature, so it doesn't matter if the row is visible or 
> not.

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Re: selected rows for a collection listbox

[Keisuke Miyako via 4D_Tech]

a collection of objects rather than the row numbers makes this impractical.

impractical how?

ORDA is lazy loading by nature, so it doesn't matter if the row is visible or 
not.

2018/07/30 10:13、John DeSoi via 4D_Tech 
<4d_tech@lists.4d.com>のメール:

How does the third one give me the *row numbers* of the highlighted rows other 
than sequentially searching for each item? That was my original question.

I want to use a collection based list box to represent data from a remote 
source. I only need to load enough data to display the visible rows. But the 
selection model that returns a collection of objects rather than the row 
numbers makes this impractical.



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Re: selected rows for a collection listbox

[John DeSoi via 4D_Tech]

How does the third one give me the *row numbers* of the highlighted rows other 
than sequentially searching for each item? That was my original question.

I want to use a collection based list box to represent data from a remote 
source. I only need to load enough data to display the visible rows. But the 
selection model that returns a collection of objects rather than the row 
numbers makes this impractical. 

I'll make a feature request.

Thanks,

John DeSoi, Ph.D.



> On Jul 29, 2018, at 7:28 PM, Keisuke Miyako via 4D_Tech 
> <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
> 
> there are 3 properties you can have 4D manage automatically (that is, 
> read-only by code)
> 
> current item (typically an object)
> current item position (typically numeric), and
> selected items (typically a collection)
> 
> http://doc.4d.com/4Dv17/4D/17/List-box-specific-properties.300-3743666.en.html
> 
> use the 3rd one.
> 
> 2018/07/30 0:27、John DeSoi via 4D_Tech 
> <4d_tech@lists.4d.com>のメール:
> 
> Is there a way to get all of the highlighted row numbers for a collection 
> listbox? It seems you can only get the first highlighted row number via the 
> currentItemPosition property. The selectedItems property would return a 
> collection of highlighted items, but at best you would have to sequentially 
> search the collection to determine the position for each object.

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Re: Confused about ORDA

[Chuck Miller via 4D_Tech]

Nope it always worked this way. If you have * at end of line and do not 
identify what query format will be & (and) is assumed

This 
QUERY([T_Loggers_data];[T_loggers_readings]FK_REAP=[REAP_sections]FK_REAP;*)

QUERY([T_Loggers_data];[T_Loggers_data]TLD_timestamp>=$TSsectionStart;*)
QUERY([T_Loggers_data];[T_Loggers_data]TLD_timestamp<=$TSsectionEnd;*)
QUERY([T_Loggers_data];[T_loggers_readings]Excluded=False)

is equivalent to
QUERY([T_Loggers_data];[T_loggers_readings]FK_REAP=[REAP_sections]FK_REAP;*)

QUERY([T_Loggers_data];&;[T_Loggers_data]TLD_timestamp>=$TSsectionStart;*)
QUERY([T_Loggers_data];&;[T_Loggers_data]TLD_timestamp<=$TSsectionEnd;*)
QUERY([T_Loggers_data]&;;[T_loggers_readings]Excluded=False)


 Chuck Miller Voice: (617) 739-0306
 Informed Solutions, Inc. Fax: (617) 232-1064   
 mailto:cjmillerinformed-solutions.com 
 Brookline, MA 02446 USA Registered 4D Developer
   Providers of 4D and Sybase connectivity
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This message and any attached documents contain information which may be 
confidential, subject to privilege or exempt from disclosure under applicable 
law.  These materials are intended only for the use of the intended recipient. 
If you are not the intended recipient of this transmission, you are hereby 
notified that any distribution, disclosure, printing, copying, storage, 
modification or the taking of any action in reliance upon this transmission is 
strictly prohibited.  Delivery of this message to any person other than the 
intended recipient shall not compromise or waive such confidentiality, 
privilege or exemption from disclosure as to this communication. 

> On Jul 29, 2018, at 4:12 PM, Robert McKeever via 4D_Tech 
> <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
> 
> Either they have changed the way QUERY works, or you are missing …&;… after 
> the first semi-colon on lines 2, 3, and 4 of the QUERY. So, it looks like you 
> are really simply searching for just the last line. Probably would be quicker.

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4Dlink file not working

[JOHN BAUGHMAN via 4D_Tech]

Just upgraded client from v15 to v16 and noticed that the 4DLink file I had 
provided to open the server no longer opens the structure. 4DServer v16 starts 
but no longer opens the database. Not sure how long this has been broken.

Here is the xml. I do not see anything wrong…


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Re: Downloaded 4D app: structure file in read only mode

[Keisuke Miyako via 4D_Tech]

is it not normal and expected that the structure file is read-only,
if inside the application folder?

you can suppress the warning

http://doc.4d.com/4Dv17/4D/17/DatabaseData-storage-page.300-3743476.en.html

and you can configure the application to use a "default data" read-only 
placeholder for startup
and use a read-write data file outside the package (e.g. application support)

http://doc.4d.com/4Dv17/4D/17/Data-file-management-in-final-applications.300-3743577.en.html

basically, on Mac, you have 2 choices: install in /Applications as read-only or 
install outside /Applications.

of course,
read-only does not mean you can never alter the contents of the app.
otherwise, you won't be able to edit backup.xml which is always inside the 
application (for now).

but the app must launch read-only on its first run.

2018/07/30 2:54、donkoff via 4D_Tech 
<4d_tech@lists.4d.com>のメール:

When I use a zip file to transfer the app, it opens with normally, no "your
structure file is in read only mode" confirm dialog.  I can use a zip
approach, but I a concerned that Apple will block this approach in the
future. The pckg approach should be better, but it seems not to work.



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Re: selected rows for a collection listbox

[Keisuke Miyako via 4D_Tech]

there are 3 properties you can have 4D manage automatically (that is, read-only 
by code)

current item (typically an object)
current item position (typically numeric), and
selected items (typically a collection)

http://doc.4d.com/4Dv17/4D/17/List-box-specific-properties.300-3743666.en.html

use the 3rd one.

2018/07/30 0:27、John DeSoi via 4D_Tech 
<4d_tech@lists.4d.com>のメール:

Is there a way to get all of the highlighted row numbers for a collection 
listbox? It seems you can only get the first highlighted row number via the 
currentItemPosition property. The selectedItems property would return a 
collection of highlighted items, but at best you would have to sequentially 
search the collection to determine the position for each object.



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Re: Orphaned blobs and SSD drives

[Spencer Hinsdale via 4D_Tech]

John,

This might be a man in the middle of a weekend attack.  I'm pretty sure the 
real Jeff Kain would tell you to run Repair, TWICE, to fix Orphaned BLOBs.

> On Jul 29, 2018, at 3:32 PM, Jeffrey Kain via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> To fix a table with orphaned blobs, export the data, truncate the table, and 
> reimport. Nothing to really worry about, except that you can't do a simple 
> compact without erroring out.

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Re: Orphaned blobs and SSD drives

[Tim Nevels via 4D_Tech]

On Jul 29, 2018, at 5:46 PM, John Baughman wrote:

> In planning for upgrading a client fo v16 I noted that the datafile needed to 
> be compacted so included a compact in my upgrade plan.
> 
> A few days before I was to do the upgrade my client replace the server’s hard 
> drive with an SSD. Ok, so when it came time to do the compact I noted that it 
> no longer told be that the datafile needed to be compacted. I ignored that 
> and proceeded to compact the datafile. As luck would have it the compact 
> failed due to orphaned blobs in one of the tables.
> 
> In my research of how to fix this problem I ran across this statement in a 
> tech note on the subject from 2011 (http://kb.4d.com/assetid=76195)…
> 
>   Note: Solid State Disk (SSD) drives do not face this challenge, so 
> there is actually no need to compact the data file on an SSD. In fact we 
> recommend NOT compacting the data file on an SSD because it contributes to 
> drive wear. For more information see Technical Note 10-09, SSDs and 4D v11 
> SQL.
> 
> Interesting! So I won’t try the compact again, but should I be worried about 
> the orphaned blobs? I think not, the database is working fine. Fixing the 
> orphans per the tech note involves compacting the address table for the table 
> in question. If I don’t need to do that I don’t particularly want to go down 
> that road.

That is interesting. But I think I would still compact occasionally, 
particularly if you do a mass deletion of records. It reduces the size of the 
data file, and that makes duplicating the data file faster. 

Orphaned blobs are not serious. They are due to a bug in 4D. It’s not really 
corruption. It’s just some blobs — the ones attached to blob fields that you 
have set to store the blob outside the record but in the data file — are 
hanging around in the data file and they are not attached to any records. They 
are like crumbs laying on the floor. If you don’t mind a little dirt on the 
floor no big deal. If you like a clean floor, then you want to remove those 
unused and unneeded orphan blobs. 

I certainly hope 4D has fixed the bug that caused these orphan blobs to appear. 

Tim

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785-749-3444
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Re: Confused about ORDA

[Tim Nevels via 4D_Tech]

On Jul 29, 2018, at 2:00 PM, Rudy Mortier wrote:

> I am a bit confused… isn’t ORDA supposed to be faster than traditional 
> queries?
> 
> I did a test with a table containing 120,000 records. The query is on 4 
> indexed fields and returns 54,000 records.
> 
> Doing the query with ORDA takes 175 milliseconds.
> Doing the query with QUERY takes 4 milliseconds.
> 
> Why??
> 
> ORDA:
> $oQRYoption:=New object("queryPlan";False;"queryPath";False)  
> 
> $oTLD:=ds.T_Loggers_data.query("TLR.FK_REAP =:1 AND TLD_timestamp >=:2 AND 
> TLD_timestamp <=:3 AND Excluded 
> =:4";[REAP_sections]FK_REAP;$TSsectionStart;$TSsectionEnd;False;$oQRYoption)  
>  
>   
> 
> Traditional:
> QUERY([T_Loggers_data];[T_loggers_readings]FK_REAP=[REAP_sections]FK_REAP;*)  
> 
> QUERY([T_Loggers_data];[T_Loggers_data]TLD_timestamp>=$TSsectionStart;*)
> QUERY([T_Loggers_data];[T_Loggers_data]TLD_timestamp<=$TSsectionEnd;*)
> QUERY([T_Loggers_data];[T_loggers_readings]Excluded=False)

Might be the same reason a query run from the native 4D language is ALWAYS 
faster than the same query done via 4D SQL. The reason… the time to parse the 
raw text and convert that into a form the 4DDB engine needs. 

Example:

QUERY([Patients];[Patients]LastName="smith”)

4D can very easily convert this line of code into 4DDB code and then execute it 
because it is already tokenized by the method editor. Parsing is very easy. 
Nothing to look up. It knows it has a valid table number and a valid field 
number. Making the 4DDB engine code is then fairly easy. 

C_LONGINT($recordsInSelection_l)
Begin SQL
  SELECT COUNT(*) FROM Patients 
  WHERE LastName = 'smith' 
  INTO :$recordsInSelection_l
End SQL

4D must take the text "SELECT COUNT(LastName) FROM Patients WHERE LastName = 
'smith' INTO :$recordsInSelection_l” and parse it. It has to figure out what 
are the field names and convert them to a field number, figure out what is a 
table name and convert that to a table number and parse the WHERE clause. Once 
it knows all that it can build the 4DDB engine code needed to make it happen. 
All that takes some milliseconds.

That’s my understanding. Miyako or JPR and the 4D gurus that know the guts of 
4D better than I can correct me where I’m wrong. 

ORDA has to do text parsing too. And it’s parsing is most likely much more 
complex than the SQL parsing. ORDA has so many more possibilities. I’d be 
curious to see the above comparison done in ORDA and see if it is as faster or 
slower that SQL. 

Also, it was never my impression that ORDA would result in faster execution 
times. It was always presented to me that ORDA was a tool for developers that 
would allow you to write code faster than you can now. Particularly when you 
need to do some complex operations. What takes many lines of native 4D code can 
new be done in a single line of ORDA. Faster for the developer, but maybe a tad 
bit slower on execution. 

Tim

*
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Innovative Solutions
785-749-3444
timnev...@mac.com
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re: What Source do you use

[David Eddy via 4D_Tech]

Jody -

On Jul 29, 2018, at 6:46 PM, Jody Bevan mailto:jody.be...@gmail.com>> wrote:

> I need to have a system with Countries, States (province, Parish, Regions), 
> and then Communities.
> 
> In the past I would typically use Wikipedia to get the information. I did 
> this to get a few for development and testing. Now I would like to fill this 
> out for about 20 countries.
> If the Zip / Postal Codes are available too that would be even better.

Try https://www.worldvu.com/ 

Bought their published book, long ago.  VERY impressive.  At that point I 
believe they listed some 200+ different address formats, to say nothing of 
changing country names, cities, etc.


David Eddy
4D lurker

Babson Park, MA

W: 781-455-0949

de...@davideddy.com

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Re: Confused about ORDA

[Two Way Communications via 4D_Tech]

Exactly, the ‘&’ is not mandatory. Both queries return the same result.


Rudy Mortier
Two Way Communications bvba 



> On 29 Jul 2018, at 22:23, Douglas von Roeder via 4D_Tech 
> <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
> 
> Bob:
> 
> I think that's a shortcut from many years ago so it's an implicit "&".
> 
> --
> Douglas von Roeder
> 949-336-2902
> 
> 
> On Sun, Jul 29, 2018 at 1:12 PM Robert McKeever via 4D_Tech <
> 4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
> 
>> Either they have changed the way QUERY works, or you are missing …&;…
>> after the first semi-colon on lines 2, 3, and 4 of the QUERY. So, it looks
>> like you are really simply searching for just the last line. Probably would
>> be quicker.
>> 
>>> On Jul 29, 2018, at 4:47 AM, Two Way Communications via 4D_Tech <
>> 4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I am a bit confused… isn’t ORDA supposed to be faster than traditional
>> queries?
>>> 
>>> I did a test with a table containing 120,000 records. The query is on 4
>> indexed fields and returns 54,000 records.
>>> 
>>> Doing the query with ORDA takes 175 milliseconds.
>>> Doing the query with QUERY takes 4 milliseconds.
>>> 
>>> Why??
>>> 
>>> ORDA:
>>> $oQRYoption:=New object("queryPlan";False;"queryPath";False)
>> 
>>> $oTLD:=ds.T_Loggers_data.query("TLR.FK_REAP =:1 AND TLD_timestamp >=:2
>> AND TLD_timestamp <=:3 AND Excluded
>> =:4";[REAP_sections]FK_REAP;$TSsectionStart;$TSsectionEnd;False;$oQRYoption)
>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Traditional:
>>> 
>> QUERY([T_Loggers_data];[T_loggers_readings]FK_REAP=[REAP_sections]FK_REAP;*)
>> 
>>> QUERY([T_Loggers_data];[T_Loggers_data]TLD_timestamp>=$TSsectionStart;*)
>>> QUERY([T_Loggers_data];[T_Loggers_data]TLD_timestamp<=$TSsectionEnd;*)
>>> QUERY([T_Loggers_data];[T_loggers_readings]Excluded=False)
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Rudy Mortier
>>> Two Way Communications bvba
>>> 
>>> **
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>> 
>> _
>> Bob McKeever  http://www.mswl.com <
>> http://www.mswl.com/>
>> McKeever's Software Wizardry
>> Port Coquitlam, B.C.
>> bobmckee...@mac.com
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
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Re: Orphaned blobs and SSD drives

[Jeffrey Kain via 4D_Tech]

Not at all true. The performance penalty is less, but still measurable.

To fix a table with orphaned blobs, export the data, truncate the table, and 
reimport. Nothing to really worry about, except that you can't do a simple 
compact without erroring out.

> On Jul 29, 2018, at 4:26 PM, JOHN BAUGHMAN via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> Note: Solid State Disk (SSD) drives do not face this challenge, so there is 
> actually no need to compact the data file on an SSD. In fact we recommend NOT 
> compacting the data file on an SSD because it contributes to drive wear. For 
> more information see Technical Note 10-09, SSDs and 4D v11 SQL.

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Re: Tabbed design windows are the best

[Jeffrey Kain via 4D_Tech]

In this case I just "tear off" the tab and make it it the start of a new set of 
tabbed windows.

I only hit the close box by accident once - otherwise I use cmd+w which closes 
the tab.  What I think I'll put in a request for is intelligent returning to 
the previously viewed tab.  If I have 4 tabs open and I'm working on tab #2, 
and I option-click on a method to open tab 5, when I close tab 5 it displays 
tab 4 (the last one) instead of tab 2 (the previous one).

> On Jul 29, 2018, at 6:08 PM, Jody Bevan via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> 1. Often when I code I will have 2 or 3 windows open that I will be looking 
> at to get object names, or match the flow of code in another method.
>   Trying to do this with the Tabbed interface is way too slow. Not just a 
> glance over with my eyes, but keystrokes or mouse clicks.

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What Source do you use

[Jody Bevan via 4D_Tech]

I need to have a system with Countries, States (province, Parish, Regions), and 
then Communities.

In the past I would typically use Wikipedia to get the information. I did this 
to get a few for development and testing. Now I would like to fill this out for 
about 20 countries.
If the Zip / Postal Codes are available too that would be even better.

In Canada you could purchase from Canada Post a list that would be updated each 
month (there the Postal Code can change).

What source do you use for this?

Thanks

 


Jody Bevan
Developer

Argus Productions Inc. 
+1 587-487-6120



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Re: Tabbed design windows are the best

[Jody Bevan via 4D_Tech]

I tried it out for about 4 days. 

What I liked:
1. uncluttered desktop.
2. The forms / methods were always in one location.

What I didn’t like:
1. Often when I code I will have 2 or 3 windows open that I will be looking at 
to get object names, or match the flow of code in another method.
Trying to do this with the Tabbed interface is way too slow. Not just a 
glance over with my eyes, but keystrokes or mouse clicks.

I went back to letting me have windows side by side to follow the another 
method while I write another.

Jody


> On Jul 29, 2018, at 11:14 AM, Jeffrey Kain via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> Now that our application is 64-bit ready, even though we're still deploying 
> mainly in 32-bit mode I've been developing in 64-bit. I have to say that I 
> really find tabbed windows for methods and forms to be incredibly productive. 
> Anyone else really enjoying it?
> 
> Hopefully it comes to Windows someday. They're really missing out (no tabbed 
> windows AND no exposé).
> 

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Re: Problems installing built application

[Donald Koffman via 4D_Tech]

I uploaded the pckg via  dropbox then downloaded via web.

Did the same for zipped, file.  The unzipped app opened in the Applications 
folder opened with no warning. The app installed form the package triggered 
read only structure warning.   Same app, different installation approach. 


> On Jul 25, 2018, at 10:01 PM, Keisuke Miyako via 4D_Tech 
> <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
> 
> on this point,
> it is important to transfer the app from one computer to another via the 
> network (http, ftp, airdrop, etc.)
> in order to verify (other than spctl --assess or codesign --verify) the code 
> signature.
> 
> GateKeeper is guarding against downloaded apps.
> 
> if you use a USB or a removable hard drive to transfer,
> you might get the wrong impression that the signature is valid.
> 
> 2018/07/26 10:53、Donald Koffman via 4D_Tech 
> <4d_tech@lists.4d.com>のメール:
> 
> I zipped it,
> transferred it to my original computer, unzipped it and moved the app to
> the Applications folder. It opened and is healthy.
> 
> 
> 
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Donald Koffman, Sc.D
DMK Concepts Inc.
Tel:  781-729-8384
Cell: 617-797-7514

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Orphaned blobs and SSD drives

[JOHN BAUGHMAN via 4D_Tech]

In planning for upgrading a client fo v16 I noted that the datafile needed to 
be compacted so included a compact in my upgrade plan.

A few days before I was to do the upgrade my client replace the server’s hard 
drive with an SSD. Ok, so when it came time to do the compact I noted that it 
no longer told be that the datafile needed to be compacted. I ignored that and 
proceeded to compact the datafile. As luck would have it the compact failed due 
to orphaned blobs in one of the tables.

In my research of how to fix this problem I ran across this statement in a tech 
note on the subject from 2011 (http://kb.4d.com/assetid=76195)…

Note: Solid State Disk (SSD) drives do not face this challenge, so 
there is actually no need to compact the data file on an SSD. In fact we 
recommend NOT compacting the data file on an SSD because it contributes to 
drive wear. For more information see Technical Note 10-09, SSDs and 4D v11 SQL.

Interesting! So I won’t try the compact again, but should I be worried about 
the orphaned blobs? I think not, the database is working fine. Fixing the 
orphans per the tech note involves compacting the address table for the table 
in question. If I don’t need to do that I don’t particularly want to go down 
that road.

Thanks,

John



John Baughman
1331 Auwaiku Street
Kailua, Hawaii  96734
(808) 262-0328
john...@hawaii.rr.com

> On Jul 29, 2018, at 10:12 AM, Robert McKeever via 4D_Tech 
> <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
> 
> Either they have changed the way QUERY works, or you are missing …&;… after 
> the first semi-colon on lines 2, 3, and 4 of the QUERY. So, it looks like you 
> are really simply searching for just the last line. Probably would be quicker.
> 
>> On Jul 29, 2018, at 4:47 AM, Two Way Communications via 4D_Tech 
>> <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
>> 
>> I am a bit confused… isn’t ORDA supposed to be faster than traditional 
>> queries?
>> 
>> I did a test with a table containing 120,000 records. The query is on 4 
>> indexed fields and returns 54,000 records.
>> 
>> Doing the query with ORDA takes 175 milliseconds.
>> Doing the query with QUERY takes 4 milliseconds.
>> 
>> Why??
>> 
>> ORDA:
>> $oQRYoption:=New object("queryPlan";False;"queryPath";False) 
>> 
>> $oTLD:=ds.T_Loggers_data.query("TLR.FK_REAP =:1 AND TLD_timestamp >=:2 AND 
>> TLD_timestamp <=:3 AND Excluded 
>> =:4";[REAP_sections]FK_REAP;$TSsectionStart;$TSsectionEnd;False;$oQRYoption) 
>>  
>>  
>> 
>> Traditional:
>> QUERY([T_Loggers_data];[T_loggers_readings]FK_REAP=[REAP_sections]FK_REAP;*) 
>> 
>> QUERY([T_Loggers_data];[T_Loggers_data]TLD_timestamp>=$TSsectionStart;*)
>> QUERY([T_Loggers_data];[T_Loggers_data]TLD_timestamp<=$TSsectionEnd;*)
>> QUERY([T_Loggers_data];[T_loggers_readings]Excluded=False)
>> 
>>  
>> Rudy Mortier
>> Two Way Communications bvba 
>> 
>> **
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> 
> _
> Bob McKeever  http://www.mswl.com 
> McKeever's Software Wizardry
> Port Coquitlam, B.C.
> bobmckee...@mac.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: Confused about ORDA

[Douglas von Roeder via 4D_Tech]

Bob:

I think that's a shortcut from many years ago so it's an implicit "&".

--
Douglas von Roeder
949-336-2902


On Sun, Jul 29, 2018 at 1:12 PM Robert McKeever via 4D_Tech <
4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:

> Either they have changed the way QUERY works, or you are missing …&;…
> after the first semi-colon on lines 2, 3, and 4 of the QUERY. So, it looks
> like you are really simply searching for just the last line. Probably would
> be quicker.
>
> > On Jul 29, 2018, at 4:47 AM, Two Way Communications via 4D_Tech <
> 4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
> >
> > I am a bit confused… isn’t ORDA supposed to be faster than traditional
> queries?
> >
> > I did a test with a table containing 120,000 records. The query is on 4
> indexed fields and returns 54,000 records.
> >
> > Doing the query with ORDA takes 175 milliseconds.
> > Doing the query with QUERY takes 4 milliseconds.
> >
> > Why??
> >
> > ORDA:
> > $oQRYoption:=New object("queryPlan";False;"queryPath";False)
>
> > $oTLD:=ds.T_Loggers_data.query("TLR.FK_REAP =:1 AND TLD_timestamp >=:2
> AND TLD_timestamp <=:3 AND Excluded
> =:4";[REAP_sections]FK_REAP;$TSsectionStart;$TSsectionEnd;False;$oQRYoption)
>
> >
> >
> > Traditional:
> >
> QUERY([T_Loggers_data];[T_loggers_readings]FK_REAP=[REAP_sections]FK_REAP;*)
>
> > QUERY([T_Loggers_data];[T_Loggers_data]TLD_timestamp>=$TSsectionStart;*)
> > QUERY([T_Loggers_data];[T_Loggers_data]TLD_timestamp<=$TSsectionEnd;*)
> > QUERY([T_Loggers_data];[T_loggers_readings]Excluded=False)
> >
> >
> > Rudy Mortier
> > Two Way Communications bvba
> >
> > **
> > 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
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> _
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> http://www.mswl.com/>
> McKeever's Software Wizardry
> Port Coquitlam, B.C.
> bobmckee...@mac.com
>
>
>
>
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Re: Confused about ORDA

[Robert McKeever via 4D_Tech]

Either they have changed the way QUERY works, or you are missing …&;… after the 
first semi-colon on lines 2, 3, and 4 of the QUERY. So, it looks like you are 
really simply searching for just the last line. Probably would be quicker.

> On Jul 29, 2018, at 4:47 AM, Two Way Communications via 4D_Tech 
> <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
> 
> I am a bit confused… isn’t ORDA supposed to be faster than traditional 
> queries?
> 
> I did a test with a table containing 120,000 records. The query is on 4 
> indexed fields and returns 54,000 records.
> 
> Doing the query with ORDA takes 175 milliseconds.
> Doing the query with QUERY takes 4 milliseconds.
> 
> Why??
> 
> ORDA:
> $oQRYoption:=New object("queryPlan";False;"queryPath";False)  
> 
> $oTLD:=ds.T_Loggers_data.query("TLR.FK_REAP =:1 AND TLD_timestamp >=:2 AND 
> TLD_timestamp <=:3 AND Excluded 
> =:4";[REAP_sections]FK_REAP;$TSsectionStart;$TSsectionEnd;False;$oQRYoption)  
>  
>   
> 
> Traditional:
> QUERY([T_Loggers_data];[T_loggers_readings]FK_REAP=[REAP_sections]FK_REAP;*)  
> 
> QUERY([T_Loggers_data];[T_Loggers_data]TLD_timestamp>=$TSsectionStart;*)
> QUERY([T_Loggers_data];[T_Loggers_data]TLD_timestamp<=$TSsectionEnd;*)
> QUERY([T_Loggers_data];[T_loggers_readings]Excluded=False)
> 
>   
> Rudy Mortier
> Two Way Communications bvba 
> 
> **
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Bob McKeever  http://www.mswl.com 
McKeever's Software Wizardry
Port Coquitlam, B.C.
bobmckee...@mac.com




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Re: Tabbed design windows are the best

[John Baughman via 4D_Tech]

As I posted earlier, I really do not like it as I could not break old habits...

1.  closing a window when I meant to close a  single tab. All my open 
methods and forms close instead of just one. 

 2. Too hard for me to find 1 of my open methods or forms. Far too often I 
find myself having to go to the Windows menu. The tab names get truncated with 
too many tabs open. 

 3. Too often fooled by an already open method or form. I keep trying to 
open it not realizing it is already open. Changing tabs is too subtle compared 
to a window opening. 

After trying it with tabs for a month I turned it off, but don’t listen to me. 
This is nothing more than trying to teach an old fart new tricks. I may try 
again later. 



 

John Baughman
Kailua, Hawaii
john...@hawaii.rr.com

> On Jul 29, 2018, at 7:14 AM, Jeffrey Kain via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> Now that our application is 64-bit ready, even though we're still deploying 
> mainly in 32-bit mode I've been developing in 64-bit. I have to say that I 
> really find tabbed windows for methods and forms to be incredibly productive. 
> Anyone else really enjoying it?
> 
> Hopefully it comes to Windows someday. They're really missing out (no tabbed 
> windows AND no exposé).
> 
> 
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Re: Downloaded 4D app: structure file in read only mode

[donkoff via 4D_Tech]

As I said in my post, I used a verified signed package to install the app.
This automatically copies it to the applications folder. The package was
created using a signed Single user Build (never opened) moved to the
Applications before creating the package. The package was created using
terminal and pkgbuild -- component etc.

When I use a zip file to transfer the app, it opens with normally, no "your
structure file is in read only mode" confirm dialog.  I can use a zip
approach, but I a concerned that Apple will block this approach in the
future. The pckg approach should be better, but it seems not to work.




--
Sent from: http://4d.1045681.n5.nabble.com/4D-Tech-f1376241.html
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Tabbed design windows are the best

[Jeffrey Kain via 4D_Tech]

Now that our application is 64-bit ready, even though we're still deploying 
mainly in 32-bit mode I've been developing in 64-bit. I have to say that I 
really find tabbed windows for methods and forms to be incredibly productive. 
Anyone else really enjoying it?

Hopefully it comes to Windows someday. They're really missing out (no tabbed 
windows AND no exposé).


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selected rows for a collection listbox

[John DeSoi via 4D_Tech]

Is there a way to get all of the highlighted row numbers for a collection 
listbox? It seems you can only get the first highlighted row number via the 
currentItemPosition property. The selectedItems property would return a 
collection of highlighted items, but at best you would have to sequentially 
search the collection to determine the position for each object.

John DeSoi, Ph.D.

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Re: Downloaded 4D app: structure file in read only mode

[Pat Bensky via 4D_Tech]

You're not trying to run it from within the disk image are you? IE instead
of copying the app from a disk image into the Applications folder you
simply open the disk image and run the app from there.

On Sun, 29 Jul 2018 at 12:59, Donald Koffman via 4D_Tech <
4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:

> No the data file is not open. The message refers to the structure file, not
> the data file. Does this indicate that it has been moved to a read only
> location?
>
> On Sat, Jul 28, 2018 at 11:19 PM Lloyd SIgler via 4D_Tech <
> 4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
>
> > Do you have the data files open on another Machine?
> >
> > I will get that message if I am trying to open while the data files are
> > already open on another machine.
> >
> > Lloyd
> >
> >
> > > On Jul 28, 2018, at 7:41 PM, donkoff via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com
> >
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > HI All,
> > > After successfully building and packaging a signed app
> (verified),opening
> > > the package installed in in High Sierra.
> > >
> > > When I launch it, a confirm Dialog asking "Are you sure you want to
> open
> > the
> > > structure file in red only mode."
> > > Yes, opens it and it seems fine.
> > >
> > > The structure file is compiled so read only mode seems appropriate. Why
> > the
> > > Confirm?
> > > Thanks,
> > > Don
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Sent from: http://4d.1045681.n5.nabble.com/4D-Tech-f1376241.html
> > > **
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Re: Downloaded 4D app: structure file in read only mode

[Donald Koffman via 4D_Tech]

No the data file is not open. The message refers to the structure file, not
the data file. Does this indicate that it has been moved to a read only
location?

On Sat, Jul 28, 2018 at 11:19 PM Lloyd SIgler via 4D_Tech <
4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:

> Do you have the data files open on another Machine?
>
> I will get that message if I am trying to open while the data files are
> already open on another machine.
>
> Lloyd
>
>
> > On Jul 28, 2018, at 7:41 PM, donkoff via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > HI All,
> > After successfully building and packaging a signed app (verified),opening
> > the package installed in in High Sierra.
> >
> > When I launch it, a confirm Dialog asking "Are you sure you want to open
> the
> > structure file in red only mode."
> > Yes, opens it and it seems fine.
> >
> > The structure file is compiled so read only mode seems appropriate. Why
> the
> > Confirm?
> > Thanks,
> > Don
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Sent from: http://4d.1045681.n5.nabble.com/4D-Tech-f1376241.html
> > **
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Confused about ORDA

[Two Way Communications via 4D_Tech]

I am a bit confused… isn’t ORDA supposed to be faster than traditional queries?

I did a test with a table containing 120,000 records. The query is on 4 indexed 
fields and returns 54,000 records.

Doing the query with ORDA takes 175 milliseconds.
Doing the query with QUERY takes 4 milliseconds.

Why??

ORDA:
$oQRYoption:=New object("queryPlan";False;"queryPath";False)

$oTLD:=ds.T_Loggers_data.query("TLR.FK_REAP =:1 AND TLD_timestamp >=:2 AND 
TLD_timestamp <=:3 AND Excluded 
=:4";[REAP_sections]FK_REAP;$TSsectionStart;$TSsectionEnd;False;$oQRYoption)
 


Traditional:
QUERY([T_Loggers_data];[T_loggers_readings]FK_REAP=[REAP_sections]FK_REAP;*)

QUERY([T_Loggers_data];[T_Loggers_data]TLD_timestamp>=$TSsectionStart;*)
QUERY([T_Loggers_data];[T_Loggers_data]TLD_timestamp<=$TSsectionEnd;*)
QUERY([T_Loggers_data];[T_loggers_readings]Excluded=False)


Rudy Mortier
Two Way Communications bvba 

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