Re: "Optimal" 4D Server hardware

[Randy Kaempen via 4D_Tech]

John,

> On Sep 11, 2020, at 5:27 PM, John DeSoi via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Sep 11, 2020, at 3:38 PM, Randy Kaempen via 4D_Tech 
>> <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
>> 
>> I have a client with about a dozen users and a 230GB data file.  They 
>> upgraded their server and we got a top of the line Mac Mini.  Since we 
>> expect to use it for a number of years, we got the best processor and maxed 
>> out the memory.  You can never have too much memory.  We also got the SSD 
>> drive so there won’t be any issues with drives crashing.  
> 
> I think SSDs are way more reliable, but I have never heard they are so 
> reliable that a second disk is no longer necessary. Any serious database 
> application needs to keep the database on a different disk from the backup 
> and journal files. I have a similar Mac Mini setup but added the fastest 
> external thunderbolt disk I could find for the journal file and backup files.

Agreed.  For the record, the client that uses the external SSD has their 
backups and journals on the SSD on the Mac itself, so they _are_ on separate 
drives.  We also have an offsite backup to Backblaze.  I also have a client who 
has their Time Machine backup on a Drobo, which gives double backup.


Randy Kaempen
Intellex Corporation

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Re: "Optimal" 4D Server hardware

[Tom Benedict via 4D_Tech]

One big benefit of running Windows is that you continue to run 32bit apps, 
seemingly forever. I don’t know whether Microsoft has a sunset plan for 32bit, 
but it’s been very nice to not be forced into 64bit, given the massive dev/test 
effort required to bring 4D apps into the 64bit client future.

Looks like Apple may be doing it again with Apple Silicon. 

Tom Benedict

> On Sep 11, 2020, at 15:16, Kirk Brooks via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> David,
> I invite you to check out the new 4D forum at https://discuss.4d.com/
> It's a huge improvement over the old forum and this list. Plus a lot more
> people are active there.
> 
> But to your point Tom and Randy are both giving you solid advice. I will
> add that my experience with 4D server is the one place I recommend a
> Windows machine over Mac hands down. They are seriously faster. Just are.
> And much more bang for the buck. You don't need an expensive Windows Server
> license if it is only running 4D. Win 10 Pro will give you everything you
> need.
> 
> It sounds like this is installed in an office and the Mac Mini is only
> running 4D (8 gigs of RAM is not very much). You didn't say which version
> of 4D which is important. Also whether you are using the web server which
> increases the RAM you want.
> 
> 64 bit requires roughly twice as much RAM as 32 bit on the machines and
> within 4D. If your code has been updated and kept up all the calls to start
> new processes are probably using 0 as the default stack size - which let's
> 4D set the stack size and adjusts for the operating environment. If not
> it's using some number that was probably set before 64 bit was a thing and
> it's way too small.
> 
> If you buy a new Mac you will get Catalina which means you WILL run 64 bit.
> Apple is announcing something next week. Speaking as someone who bought one
> of the new-cool touch bar MBPs in 2016 (and it's been a truly crappy
> machine) you don't want to be one of the first to get a Mac Mini with the
> new hardware for a business critical application like this. Plus, if you
> need to continue to run 32 bit
> 
> Finally I see you have an SSD RAID. I'm curious about that. Typically I'll
> use a mirrored SSD for the primary drive and have some large mirrored hard
> disk to use for things like backups. I'm curious how you all decided to use
> that much of a RAID on a Mac Mini?
> 
> On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 2:22 PM Tom Benedict via 4D_Tech <
> 4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
> 
>> Hi David,
>> 
>> I think the answer really depends on number of things:
>> 
>> - How much growth you expect, in terms of concurrent users/processes and
>> data file size, over the next 3-5 years.
>> 
>> - How is your application expected to change over then next 3 - 5 years.
>> 
>> - What kind of IT support you have.
>> 
>> - What does your application do? Is it all internal facing using 4D
>> Client? Does it have Web Clients? Does it connect to other internal and
>> external systems?
>> 
>> If you have mostly MacOS IT support and experience, and you expect modest
>> growth in your user base and application in the future, and your app is
>> currently performing well, it’s an easy decision to get another Mac Mini
>> (maybe with more RAM).
>> 
>> If you expect to double (or more) your users and data and expand your
>> applications capabilities, and your current system performance is mediocre,
>> and you have some Windows IT support, you could consider getting a Windows
>> server.
>> 
>> I’m assuming your existing system has sufficient redundancy to meet the
>> requirements of your corporate Disaster Recovery Plan.
>> 
>> And one more thing. If you buy a new MacOS machine today you will likely
>> have to run 64bit, which means your app needs to be 64bit compatible. If
>> it’s not already 64bit compatible, that may be considerable work, depending
>> on the nature of your app.
>> 
>> HTH,
>> 
>> Tom Benedict
>> 
>> 
>>> On Sep 11, 2020, at 13:08, David Loeppky via 4D_Tech <
>> 4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I'm ready to upgrade our 4D server machine and would welcome any insights
>>> and recommendations.
>>> 
>>> Some details:
>>> - 40 Users (Mac and Windows)
>>> - 4GB data file
>>> - 120 tables
>>> - The current server is a 2011 Mac Mini with 8GB and raid 4XSSD HD
>>> 
>>> Questions about the new server:
>>> - Windows or Mac?
>>> - Recommended features.
>>> 
>>> Many thanks for the input.
>>> 
>>> --
>>> 
>>> Regards,
>>> 
>>> David Loeppky
>>> 
>> 
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>> **
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Kirk Brooks
> San Francisco, CA
> ==
> **
> 

Re: "Optimal" 4D Server hardware

[John DeSoi via 4D_Tech]

> On Sep 11, 2020, at 3:38 PM, Randy Kaempen via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> I have a client with about a dozen users and a 230GB data file.  They 
> upgraded their server and we got a top of the line Mac Mini.  Since we expect 
> to use it for a number of years, we got the best processor and maxed out the 
> memory.  You can never have too much memory.  We also got the SSD drive so 
> there won’t be any issues with drives crashing.  

I think SSDs are way more reliable, but I have never heard they are so reliable 
that a second disk is no longer necessary. Any serious database application 
needs to keep the database on a different disk from the backup and journal 
files. I have a similar Mac Mini setup but added the fastest external 
thunderbolt disk I could find for the journal file and backup files.

> 
> I also have clients who use an external SSD drive for their structure and 
> data file.  The thought there is that if there is a problem with the 
> computer, you just replace it with another one and you could get going again 
> without losing or having to move your data.

If you don't really analyze the specs, an external SSD can be a lot slower than 
the Mac built in drive. Important for databases.

John DeSoi, Ph.D.

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Re: "Optimal" 4D Server hardware

[Kirk Brooks via 4D_Tech]

David,
I invite you to check out the new 4D forum at https://discuss.4d.com/
It's a huge improvement over the old forum and this list. Plus a lot more
people are active there.

But to your point Tom and Randy are both giving you solid advice. I will
add that my experience with 4D server is the one place I recommend a
Windows machine over Mac hands down. They are seriously faster. Just are.
And much more bang for the buck. You don't need an expensive Windows Server
license if it is only running 4D. Win 10 Pro will give you everything you
need.

It sounds like this is installed in an office and the Mac Mini is only
running 4D (8 gigs of RAM is not very much). You didn't say which version
of 4D which is important. Also whether you are using the web server which
increases the RAM you want.

64 bit requires roughly twice as much RAM as 32 bit on the machines and
within 4D. If your code has been updated and kept up all the calls to start
new processes are probably using 0 as the default stack size - which let's
4D set the stack size and adjusts for the operating environment. If not
it's using some number that was probably set before 64 bit was a thing and
it's way too small.

If you buy a new Mac you will get Catalina which means you WILL run 64 bit.
Apple is announcing something next week. Speaking as someone who bought one
of the new-cool touch bar MBPs in 2016 (and it's been a truly crappy
machine) you don't want to be one of the first to get a Mac Mini with the
new hardware for a business critical application like this. Plus, if you
need to continue to run 32 bit

Finally I see you have an SSD RAID. I'm curious about that. Typically I'll
use a mirrored SSD for the primary drive and have some large mirrored hard
disk to use for things like backups. I'm curious how you all decided to use
that much of a RAID on a Mac Mini?

On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 2:22 PM Tom Benedict via 4D_Tech <
4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:

> Hi David,
>
> I think the answer really depends on number of things:
>
> - How much growth you expect, in terms of concurrent users/processes and
> data file size, over the next 3-5 years.
>
> - How is your application expected to change over then next 3 - 5 years.
>
> - What kind of IT support you have.
>
> - What does your application do? Is it all internal facing using 4D
> Client? Does it have Web Clients? Does it connect to other internal and
> external systems?
>
> If you have mostly MacOS IT support and experience, and you expect modest
> growth in your user base and application in the future, and your app is
> currently performing well, it’s an easy decision to get another Mac Mini
> (maybe with more RAM).
>
> If you expect to double (or more) your users and data and expand your
> applications capabilities, and your current system performance is mediocre,
> and you have some Windows IT support, you could consider getting a Windows
> server.
>
> I’m assuming your existing system has sufficient redundancy to meet the
> requirements of your corporate Disaster Recovery Plan.
>
> And one more thing. If you buy a new MacOS machine today you will likely
> have to run 64bit, which means your app needs to be 64bit compatible. If
> it’s not already 64bit compatible, that may be considerable work, depending
> on the nature of your app.
>
> HTH,
>
> Tom Benedict
>
>
> > On Sep 11, 2020, at 13:08, David Loeppky via 4D_Tech <
> 4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
> >
> > I'm ready to upgrade our 4D server machine and would welcome any insights
> > and recommendations.
> >
> > Some details:
> > - 40 Users (Mac and Windows)
> > - 4GB data file
> > - 120 tables
> > - The current server is a 2011 Mac Mini with 8GB and raid 4XSSD HD
> >
> > Questions about the new server:
> > - Windows or Mac?
> > - Recommended features.
> >
> > Many thanks for the input.
> >
> > --
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > David Loeppky
> >
>
> **
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-- 
Kirk Brooks
San Francisco, CA
==
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Re: "Optimal" 4D Server hardware

[Tom Benedict via 4D_Tech]

Hi David,

I think the answer really depends on number of things:

- How much growth you expect, in terms of concurrent users/processes and data 
file size, over the next 3-5 years.

- How is your application expected to change over then next 3 - 5 years.

- What kind of IT support you have. 

- What does your application do? Is it all internal facing using 4D Client? 
Does it have Web Clients? Does it connect to other internal and external 
systems?

If you have mostly MacOS IT support and experience, and you expect modest 
growth in your user base and application in the future, and your app is 
currently performing well, it’s an easy decision to get another Mac Mini (maybe 
with more RAM).

If you expect to double (or more) your users and data and expand your 
applications capabilities, and your current system performance is mediocre, and 
you have some Windows IT support, you could consider getting a Windows server.  

I’m assuming your existing system has sufficient redundancy to meet the 
requirements of your corporate Disaster Recovery Plan. 

And one more thing. If you buy a new MacOS machine today you will likely have 
to run 64bit, which means your app needs to be 64bit compatible. If it’s not 
already 64bit compatible, that may be considerable work, depending on the 
nature of your app.

HTH,

Tom Benedict


> On Sep 11, 2020, at 13:08, David Loeppky via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> I'm ready to upgrade our 4D server machine and would welcome any insights
> and recommendations.
> 
> Some details:
> - 40 Users (Mac and Windows)
> - 4GB data file
> - 120 tables
> - The current server is a 2011 Mac Mini with 8GB and raid 4XSSD HD
> 
> Questions about the new server:
> - Windows or Mac?
> - Recommended features.
> 
> Many thanks for the input.
> 
> -- 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> David Loeppky
> 

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Re: "Optimal" 4D Server hardware

[Lee Hinde via 4D_Tech]

Are you having any performance issues now?

My 2¢, with that datafile size, I'd just get more of the same (current 
MacMini),  with 16GB RAM. 

Unless your in-house expertise is more comfortable with Windows.

> On Sep 11, 2020, at 1:08 PM, David Loeppky via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> I'm ready to upgrade our 4D server machine and would welcome any insights
> and recommendations.
> 
> Some details:
> - 40 Users (Mac and Windows)
> - 4GB data file
> - 120 tables
> - The current server is a 2011 Mac Mini with 8GB and raid 4XSSD HD
> 
> Questions about the new server:
> - Windows or Mac?
> - Recommended features.
> 
> Many thanks for the input.
> 
> -- 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> David Loeppky
> 
> Co-Owner
> 
> T: 360.380.1908 x111
> 
> M: 360.319.9141
> 
> F: 360.384.3673
> 
> *dav...@chuckanutbay.com *
> 
> 
> 

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Re: "Optimal" 4D Server hardware

[Randy Kaempen via 4D_Tech]

David,

I have a client with about a dozen users and a 230GB data file.  They upgraded 
their server and we got a top of the line Mac Mini.  Since we expect to use it 
for a number of years, we got the best processor and maxed out the memory.  You 
can never have too much memory.  We also got the SSD drive so there won’t be 
any issues with drives crashing.  

I also have clients who use an external SSD drive for their structure and data 
file.  The thought there is that if there is a problem with the computer, you 
just replace it with another one and you could get going again without losing 
or having to move your data.

Keep in mind that a new computer will come with the latest Mac OS.  You need to 
be running a version of 4D that works with that OS.   Sometimes, it’s better to 
buy a new computer with the previous OS before the new one is released (like 
now before Big Sur comes out).


Randy Kaempen
Intellex Corporation

> On Sep 11, 2020, at 3:08 PM, David Loeppky via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> I'm ready to upgrade our 4D server machine and would welcome any insights
> and recommendations.
> 
> Some details:
> - 40 Users (Mac and Windows)
> - 4GB data file
> - 120 tables
> - The current server is a 2011 Mac Mini with 8GB and raid 4XSSD HD
> 
> Questions about the new server:
> - Windows or Mac?
> - Recommended features.
> 
> Many thanks for the input.
> 
> -- 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> David Loeppky
> 
> Co-Owner
> 
> T: 360.380.1908 x111
> 
> M: 360.319.9141
> 
> F: 360.384.3673
> 
> *dav...@chuckanutbay.com *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> **
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"Optimal" 4D Server hardware

[David Loeppky via 4D_Tech]

I'm ready to upgrade our 4D server machine and would welcome any insights
and recommendations.

Some details:
- 40 Users (Mac and Windows)
- 4GB data file
- 120 tables
- The current server is a 2011 Mac Mini with 8GB and raid 4XSSD HD

Questions about the new server:
- Windows or Mac?
- Recommended features.

Many thanks for the input.

-- 

Regards,

David Loeppky

Co-Owner

T: 360.380.1908 x111

M: 360.319.9141

F: 360.384.3673

*dav...@chuckanutbay.com *






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Parallels RAS on Amazon AWS

[David Rose via 4D_Tech]

My organization is considering migrating our 4D v17.5 client/server 
application, currently running in an all-Windows 10 environment, to an Amazon 
EC2 instance, with Parallels RAS providing virtual machines for 4D client 
access. Are any of you doing this or something similar?

Here is an article at the Parallels RAS website about this:
https://www.parallels.com/blogs/ras/parallels-ras-on-aws/#:~:text=Parallels%20RAS%20automation%20capabilities%E2%80%94combined,in%20less%20than%20an%20hour.

Thanks,
David Rose

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