Re: "Optimal" 4D Server hardware

[Mike Kerner via 4D_Tech]

i personally think it's a good idea.  hardware is cheap, bandwidth is
cheap.  downtime is not.

On Tue, Sep 15, 2020 at 9:55 AM Tom Benedict via 4D_Tech <
4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:

> Have you ever considered addressing redundancy by using a mirror (local,
> offsite or in the cloud)? It provides both disk and location redundancy and
> the cost is low (one 4D Server license and a modestly provisioned machine).
> And backups can be moved off the primary 4D Server, increasing
> availability.
>
> Tom Benedict
>
> > On Sep 15, 2020, at 06:11, Mike Kerner via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > Chip asked "why mechanical"
> > I'm an ssd fanatic, and have insisted on every new machine having an SSD
> > for years, so I was leery about doing this.  It seems from the literature
> > that mechanical drives actually have a higher expected lifespan than
> > SSD's.  The other reason is because if a mechanical drive fails, you
> have a
> > higher probability of recovery than you do with an SSD, because you can
> > clean-room the drive.  As someone who got frequent flyer miles from
> > driveSavers, I appreciate that I never sent them a drive that they didn't
> > recover.
> > I'm still leery of this setup, though.  I don't like it, and I'm
> concerned
> > that maybe the literature is incorrect.  How can mechanical drives
> > possibly be more reliable than SSD's?
> > As a resul of this thread, we just added another drive to this new 4D
> > setup, so for now:
> > OS, applications (C:) (SSD)
> > Structure, Data (D:) (Mechanical)
> > backups and logs (F:)
> > Further, we have an external backup server.
> > I'm a gigantic proponent of cloud backups, as well, via whatever service.
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Sep 12, 2020 at 11:46 PM Tom Benedict via 4D_Tech <
> > 4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
> >
> >> I understand that medical data wouldn’t be stored in the public cloud,
> but
> >> what about private cloud? Private cloud has been used to store medical
> data
> >> for some years now. But not in Canada yet? Seems like there must be a
> way
> >> for a cloud provider to have geographic control of where the data might
> be
> >> physically stored.
> >>
> >> Tom
> >>
> >>> On Sep 12, 2020, at 19:13, Robert McKeever via 4D_Tech <
> >> 4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> And, by law, you can not store any Canadian Medical data on servers
> >> outside the country. Makes the cloud mostly useless.
> >>>
>  On Sep 12, 2020, at 3:41 PM, nug via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com>
> >> wrote:
> 
>  Personallycloud = ? Who has access to your data?
>  Who is scanning/deep inspecting, even as innocuous as spotlight
> >> examining your data?
> 
>  Yes I know cloud is all the rage - but I guess it depends on who you
> >> trust with your data, and how sensitive your data is.
> 
>  A “personal” or “corporate" cloud would be another matter because it
> is
> >> at least run/operated buy the company who’s data It is (or you
> personally)
> >> in which case the data is “safe”. “Safe” as in those who have access are
> >> supposed to have access — of course that doesn’t mitigate against inside
> >> misuse of computing resources. :)
> 
>  Just because your paranoid - that doesn’t mean “they” are not REALLY
> >> after you!   :)
> 
>  Chip
> 
> > On Sep 12, 2020, at 2:09 PM, Tom Benedict 
> >> wrote:
> >
> > Your redundancy here is impressive but I don’t see anything about
> >> cloud backup.
> 
>  **
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> >>>
> >>> _
> >>> Bob McKeever  http://www.mswl.com <
> >> http://www.mswl.com/>
> >>> McKeever's Software Wizardry
> >>> Port Coquitlam, B.C.
> >>> bobmckee...@mac.com
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> **
> >>> 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
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> >
> >
> > --
> > On the first day, God created the 

Re: "Optimal" 4D Server hardware

[Tom Benedict via 4D_Tech]

Have you ever considered addressing redundancy by using a mirror (local, 
offsite or in the cloud)? It provides both disk and location redundancy and the 
cost is low (one 4D Server license and a modestly provisioned machine). And 
backups can be moved off the primary 4D Server, increasing availability. 

Tom Benedict

> On Sep 15, 2020, at 06:11, Mike Kerner via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> Chip asked "why mechanical"
> I'm an ssd fanatic, and have insisted on every new machine having an SSD
> for years, so I was leery about doing this.  It seems from the literature
> that mechanical drives actually have a higher expected lifespan than
> SSD's.  The other reason is because if a mechanical drive fails, you have a
> higher probability of recovery than you do with an SSD, because you can
> clean-room the drive.  As someone who got frequent flyer miles from
> driveSavers, I appreciate that I never sent them a drive that they didn't
> recover.
> I'm still leery of this setup, though.  I don't like it, and I'm concerned
> that maybe the literature is incorrect.  How can mechanical drives
> possibly be more reliable than SSD's?
> As a resul of this thread, we just added another drive to this new 4D
> setup, so for now:
> OS, applications (C:) (SSD)
> Structure, Data (D:) (Mechanical)
> backups and logs (F:)
> Further, we have an external backup server.
> I'm a gigantic proponent of cloud backups, as well, via whatever service.
> 
> 
> On Sat, Sep 12, 2020 at 11:46 PM Tom Benedict via 4D_Tech <
> 4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
> 
>> I understand that medical data wouldn’t be stored in the public cloud, but
>> what about private cloud? Private cloud has been used to store medical data
>> for some years now. But not in Canada yet? Seems like there must be a way
>> for a cloud provider to have geographic control of where the data might be
>> physically stored.
>> 
>> Tom
>> 
>>> On Sep 12, 2020, at 19:13, Robert McKeever via 4D_Tech <
>> 4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> And, by law, you can not store any Canadian Medical data on servers
>> outside the country. Makes the cloud mostly useless.
>>> 
 On Sep 12, 2020, at 3:41 PM, nug via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com>
>> wrote:
 
 Personallycloud = ? Who has access to your data?
 Who is scanning/deep inspecting, even as innocuous as spotlight
>> examining your data?
 
 Yes I know cloud is all the rage - but I guess it depends on who you
>> trust with your data, and how sensitive your data is.
 
 A “personal” or “corporate" cloud would be another matter because it is
>> at least run/operated buy the company who’s data It is (or you  personally)
>> in which case the data is “safe”. “Safe” as in those who have access are
>> supposed to have access — of course that doesn’t mitigate against inside
>> misuse of computing resources. :)
 
 Just because your paranoid - that doesn’t mean “they” are not REALLY
>> after you!   :)
 
 Chip
 
> On Sep 12, 2020, at 2:09 PM, Tom Benedict 
>> wrote:
> 
> Your redundancy here is impressive but I don’t see anything about
>> cloud backup.
 
 **
 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
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 **
>>> 
>>> _
>>> Bob McKeever  http://www.mswl.com <
>> http://www.mswl.com/>
>>> McKeever's Software Wizardry
>>> Port Coquitlam, B.C.
>>> bobmckee...@mac.com
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> **
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>> 
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> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth
> On the second day, God created the oceans.
> On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
>   and did a little diving.
> And God said, "This is good."
> **
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Re: "Optimal" 4D Server hardware

[Mike Kerner via 4D_Tech]

Chip asked "why mechanical"
I'm an ssd fanatic, and have insisted on every new machine having an SSD
for years, so I was leery about doing this.  It seems from the literature
that mechanical drives actually have a higher expected lifespan than
SSD's.  The other reason is because if a mechanical drive fails, you have a
higher probability of recovery than you do with an SSD, because you can
clean-room the drive.  As someone who got frequent flyer miles from
driveSavers, I appreciate that I never sent them a drive that they didn't
recover.
I'm still leery of this setup, though.  I don't like it, and I'm concerned
that maybe the literature is incorrect.  How can mechanical drives
possibly be more reliable than SSD's?
As a resul of this thread, we just added another drive to this new 4D
setup, so for now:
OS, applications (C:) (SSD)
Structure, Data (D:) (Mechanical)
backups and logs (F:)
Further, we have an external backup server.
I'm a gigantic proponent of cloud backups, as well, via whatever service.


On Sat, Sep 12, 2020 at 11:46 PM Tom Benedict via 4D_Tech <
4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:

> I understand that medical data wouldn’t be stored in the public cloud, but
> what about private cloud? Private cloud has been used to store medical data
> for some years now. But not in Canada yet? Seems like there must be a way
> for a cloud provider to have geographic control of where the data might be
> physically stored.
>
> Tom
>
> > On Sep 12, 2020, at 19:13, Robert McKeever via 4D_Tech <
> 4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
> >
> > And, by law, you can not store any Canadian Medical data on servers
> outside the country. Makes the cloud mostly useless.
> >
> >> On Sep 12, 2020, at 3:41 PM, nug via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> Personallycloud = ? Who has access to your data?
> >> Who is scanning/deep inspecting, even as innocuous as spotlight
> examining your data?
> >>
> >> Yes I know cloud is all the rage - but I guess it depends on who you
> trust with your data, and how sensitive your data is.
> >>
> >> A “personal” or “corporate" cloud would be another matter because it is
> at least run/operated buy the company who’s data It is (or you  personally)
> in which case the data is “safe”. “Safe” as in those who have access are
> supposed to have access — of course that doesn’t mitigate against inside
> misuse of computing resources. :)
> >>
> >> Just because your paranoid - that doesn’t mean “they” are not REALLY
> after you!   :)
> >>
> >> Chip
> >>
> >>> On Sep 12, 2020, at 2:09 PM, Tom Benedict 
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Your redundancy here is impressive but I don’t see anything about
> cloud backup.
> >>
> >> **
> >> 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
> >> New Forum: https://discuss.4D.com
> >> Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
> >> Options: https://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
> >> Unsub:  mailto:4d_tech-unsubscr...@lists.4d.com
> >> **
> >
> > _
> > Bob McKeever  http://www.mswl.com <
> http://www.mswl.com/>
> > McKeever's Software Wizardry
> > Port Coquitlam, B.C.
> > bobmckee...@mac.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > **
> > 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
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> > **
>
> **
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-- 
On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth
On the second day, God created the oceans.
On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
   and did a little diving.
And God said, "This is good."
**
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Re: "Optimal" 4D Server hardware

[Tom Benedict via 4D_Tech]

I understand that medical data wouldn’t be stored in the public cloud, but what 
about private cloud? Private cloud has been used to store medical data for some 
years now. But not in Canada yet? Seems like there must be a way for a cloud 
provider to have geographic control of where the data might be physically 
stored.

Tom

> On Sep 12, 2020, at 19:13, Robert McKeever via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> And, by law, you can not store any Canadian Medical data on servers outside 
> the country. Makes the cloud mostly useless.
> 
>> On Sep 12, 2020, at 3:41 PM, nug via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Personallycloud = ? Who has access to your data?
>> Who is scanning/deep inspecting, even as innocuous as spotlight examining 
>> your data?
>> 
>> Yes I know cloud is all the rage - but I guess it depends on who you trust 
>> with your data, and how sensitive your data is.
>> 
>> A “personal” or “corporate" cloud would be another matter because it is at 
>> least run/operated buy the company who’s data It is (or you  personally) in 
>> which case the data is “safe”. “Safe” as in those who have access are 
>> supposed to have access — of course that doesn’t mitigate against inside 
>> misuse of computing resources. :)
>> 
>> Just because your paranoid - that doesn’t mean “they” are not REALLY after 
>> you!   :)
>> 
>> Chip
>> 
>>> On Sep 12, 2020, at 2:09 PM, Tom Benedict  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Your redundancy here is impressive but I don’t see anything about cloud 
>>> backup.
>> 
>> **
>> 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
>> New Forum: https://discuss.4D.com
>> Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
>> Options: https://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
>> Unsub:  mailto:4d_tech-unsubscr...@lists.4d.com
>> **
> 
> _
> Bob McKeever  http://www.mswl.com 
> McKeever's Software Wizardry
> Port Coquitlam, B.C.
> bobmckee...@mac.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> **
> 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
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Re: "Optimal" 4D Server hardware

[Robert McKeever via 4D_Tech]

And, by law, you can not store any Canadian Medical data on servers outside the 
country. Makes the cloud mostly useless.

> On Sep 12, 2020, at 3:41 PM, nug via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
> 
> Personallycloud = ? Who has access to your data?
> Who is scanning/deep inspecting, even as innocuous as spotlight examining 
> your data?
> 
> Yes I know cloud is all the rage - but I guess it depends on who you trust 
> with your data, and how sensitive your data is.
> 
> A “personal” or “corporate" cloud would be another matter because it is at 
> least run/operated buy the company who’s data It is (or you  personally) in 
> which case the data is “safe”. “Safe” as in those who have access are 
> supposed to have access — of course that doesn’t mitigate against inside 
> misuse of computing resources. :)
> 
> Just because your paranoid - that doesn’t mean “they” are not REALLY after 
> you!   :)
> 
> Chip
> 
>> On Sep 12, 2020, at 2:09 PM, Tom Benedict  wrote:
>> 
>> Your redundancy here is impressive but I don’t see anything about cloud 
>> backup.
> 
> **
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_
Bob McKeever  http://www.mswl.com 
McKeever's Software Wizardry
Port Coquitlam, B.C.
bobmckee...@mac.com




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Re: "Optimal" 4D Server hardware

[Chuck Miller via 4D_Tech]

yes SSD for data. It so much faster and more reliable

Regards

Chuck

 Chuck Miller Voice: (617) 739-0306
 Informed Solutions, Inc. Fax: (617) 232-1064   
 mailto:cjmillerinformed-solutions.com 
 Brookline, MA 02446 USA Registered 4D Developer
   Providers of 4D and Sybase connectivity
  http://www.informed-solutions.com  

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> On Sep 12, 2020, at 8:48 AM, Mike Kerner via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> I just ordered a new server, Win, because we are using ODBC.  I ordered it
> like the gaming setups - SSD for the OS and mechanical for data.  I hadn't
> thought about adding a third drive for the backups and journal.  Any other
> thoughts/tips?

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Re: "Optimal" 4D Server hardware

[Tom Benedict via 4D_Tech]

Indeed, security in the cloud is important. I’ve never used the data encryption 
features of 4D, but I suspect that could address the cloud security issues.

At the company I’m working for now, everything other than 4D is in the cloud. 
They have absolutely no local data, no local servers. None at all. Developers, 
Managers, Users.. everything’s in the cloud.

Tom

> On Sep 12, 2020, at 15:41, nug <4d_o...@pghrepository.org> wrote:
> 
> Personallycloud = ? Who has access to your data?
> Who is scanning/deep inspecting, even as innocuous as spotlight examining 
> your data?
> 
> Yes I know cloud is all the rage - but I guess it depends on who you trust 
> with your data, and how sensitive your data is.
> 
> A “personal” or “corporate" cloud would be another matter because it is at 
> least run/operated buy the company who’s data It is (or you  personally) in 
> which case the data is “safe”. “Safe” as in those who have access are 
> supposed to have access — of course that doesn’t mitigate against inside 
> misuse of computing resources. :)
> 
> Just because your paranoid - that doesn’t mean “they” are not REALLY after 
> you!   :)
> 
> Chip
> 
>> On Sep 12, 2020, at 2:09 PM, Tom Benedict > > wrote:
>> 
>> Your redundancy here is impressive but I don’t see anything about cloud 
>> backup.
> 

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Re: "Optimal" 4D Server hardware

[nug via 4D_Tech]

Personallycloud = ? Who has access to your data?
Who is scanning/deep inspecting, even as innocuous as spotlight examining your 
data?

Yes I know cloud is all the rage - but I guess it depends on who you trust with 
your data, and how sensitive your data is.

A “personal” or “corporate" cloud would be another matter because it is at 
least run/operated buy the company who’s data It is (or you  personally) in 
which case the data is “safe”. “Safe” as in those who have access are supposed 
to have access — of course that doesn’t mitigate against inside misuse of 
computing resources. :)

Just because your paranoid - that doesn’t mean “they” are not REALLY after you! 
  :)

Chip

> On Sep 12, 2020, at 2:09 PM, Tom Benedict  wrote:
> 
> Your redundancy here is impressive but I don’t see anything about cloud 
> backup.

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Re: "Optimal" 4D Server hardware

[Tom Benedict via 4D_Tech]

Chip,

Your redundancy here is impressive but I don’t see anything about cloud backup. 
Weekly off site backup is nice, but it could be up to a week old when you have 
fire in your data center. A cloud backup (continuous or other interval) would 
address that risk.

Another redundancy design which many larger 4D installations use is mirroring 
via “log shipping” where the 4D .journal file is periodically sent to another 
4D server where it is integrated. It can be "almost real time" by using a short 
period. Then you have a fully functional “warm failover” for very little cost 
and a tiny bit of management. It requires a server license and a machine. But 
the machine costs can be mitigated these days by using a VM. And the mirror 
machine can be anywhere (in the local data center, the building next door, 
across town, across the continent, on a different continent, planet etc..)

Mike mentions mechanical disks for data. Is that because of cost? Maybe his 
data file is very large (terabytes+)?

Tom Benedict

> On Sep 12, 2020, at 07:14, nug via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
> 
> The setup I was using:
>  with whatever specs make you happy. :)
> 2x RAID 5 boxes - these to boxes are mirrored (results in RAID 51)
> Nightly backup (whole system) to the RAID 51 setup using whatever backup 
> software you are comfortable with.
> 
> This gives you:
> A backup if the system disk fails
> A backup if the database disk fails
> A backup if one of 1 RAID 5 disks fail
> A backup if one disk (in each RAID box) fails
> Actually you still have a functioning backup if ALL of the above happens! At 
> once!
> 
> You an also look for a RAID 6 box (extra protection for disk failure) or RAID 
> 5 with ‘hot’ spare.
> 
> When you buy disks for the RAID boxes it might be a good idea to buy at least 
> 1 spare for each box so that they are on hand in case…
> 
> To cover the rest of best practice, 5 external drives with capacity large 
> enough to hold a copy of the (latest) full backup and updates, which are 
> updated once weekly, cycled, and moved off site, and 1 to be cycled and moved 
> off site monthly.
> 
> N.B. : in most cases you can use SSDs as the RAID drives.
> 
> Chip
> 
>> On Sep 12, 2020, at 8:48 AM, Mike Kerner via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> I just ordered a new server, Win, because we are using ODBC.  I ordered it
>> like the gaming setups - SSD for the OS and mechanical for data.  I hadn't
>> thought about adding a third drive for the backups and journal.  Any other
>> thoughts/tips?
>> 
>> On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 7:40 PM Randy Kaempen via 4D_Tech <
>> 4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> John,
>>> 
 On Sep 11, 2020, at 5:27 PM, John DeSoi via 4D_Tech <
>>> 4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
 
 
> On Sep 11, 2020, at 3:38 PM, Randy Kaempen via 4D_Tech <
>>> 4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
> 
> I have a client with about a dozen users and a 230GB data file.  They
>>> upgraded their server and we got a top of the line Mac Mini.  Since we
>>> expect to use it for a number of years, we got the best processor and maxed
>>> out the memory.  You can never have too much memory.  We also got the SSD
>>> drive so there won’t be any issues with drives crashing.
 
 I think SSDs are way more reliable, but I have never heard they are so
>>> reliable that a second disk is no longer necessary. Any serious database
>>> application needs to keep the database on a different disk from the backup
>>> and journal files. I have a similar Mac Mini setup but added the fastest
>>> external thunderbolt disk I could find for the journal file and backup
>>> files.
>>> 
>>> Agreed.  For the record, the client that uses the external SSD has their
>>> backups and journals on the SSD on the Mac itself, so they _are_ on
>>> separate drives.  We also have an offsite backup to Backblaze.  I also have
>>> a client who has their Time Machine backup on a Drobo, which gives double
>>> backup.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Randy Kaempen
>>> Intellex Corporation
>>> 
>>> **
>>> 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
>>> New Forum: https://discuss.4D.com
>>> Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
>>> Options: https://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
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>>> **
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth
>> On the second day, God created the oceans.
>> On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
>>  and did a little diving.
>> And God said, "This is good."
>> **
>> 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
>> New Forum: https://discuss.4D.com
>> Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
>> Options: https://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
>> Unsub:  mailto:4d_tech-unsubscr...@lists.4d.com
>> 

Re: "Optimal" 4D Server hardware

[nug via 4D_Tech]

The setup I was using:
 with whatever specs make you happy. :)
2x RAID 5 boxes - these to boxes are mirrored (results in RAID 51)
Nightly backup (whole system) to the RAID 51 setup using whatever backup 
software you are comfortable with.

This gives you:
A backup if the system disk fails
A backup if the database disk fails
A backup if one of 1 RAID 5 disks fail
A backup if one disk (in each RAID box) fails
Actually you still have a functioning backup if ALL of the above happens! At 
once!

You an also look for a RAID 6 box (extra protection for disk failure) or RAID 5 
with ‘hot’ spare.

When you buy disks for the RAID boxes it might be a good idea to buy at least 1 
spare for each box so that they are on hand in case…

To cover the rest of best practice, 5 external drives with capacity large 
enough to hold a copy of the (latest) full backup and updates, which are 
updated once weekly, cycled, and moved off site, and 1 to be cycled and moved 
off site monthly.

N.B. : in most cases you can use SSDs as the RAID drives.

Chip

> On Sep 12, 2020, at 8:48 AM, Mike Kerner via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> I just ordered a new server, Win, because we are using ODBC.  I ordered it
> like the gaming setups - SSD for the OS and mechanical for data.  I hadn't
> thought about adding a third drive for the backups and journal.  Any other
> thoughts/tips?
> 
> On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 7:40 PM Randy Kaempen via 4D_Tech <
> 4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
> 
>> John,
>> 
>>> On Sep 11, 2020, at 5:27 PM, John DeSoi via 4D_Tech <
>> 4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
 On Sep 11, 2020, at 3:38 PM, Randy Kaempen via 4D_Tech <
>> 4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
 
 I have a client with about a dozen users and a 230GB data file.  They
>> upgraded their server and we got a top of the line Mac Mini.  Since we
>> expect to use it for a number of years, we got the best processor and maxed
>> out the memory.  You can never have too much memory.  We also got the SSD
>> drive so there won’t be any issues with drives crashing.
>>> 
>>> I think SSDs are way more reliable, but I have never heard they are so
>> reliable that a second disk is no longer necessary. Any serious database
>> application needs to keep the database on a different disk from the backup
>> and journal files. I have a similar Mac Mini setup but added the fastest
>> external thunderbolt disk I could find for the journal file and backup
>> files.
>> 
>> Agreed.  For the record, the client that uses the external SSD has their
>> backups and journals on the SSD on the Mac itself, so they _are_ on
>> separate drives.  We also have an offsite backup to Backblaze.  I also have
>> a client who has their Time Machine backup on a Drobo, which gives double
>> backup.
>> 
>> 
>> Randy Kaempen
>> Intellex Corporation
>> 
>> **
>> 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
>> New Forum: https://discuss.4D.com
>> Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
>> Options: https://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
>> Unsub:  mailto:4d_tech-unsubscr...@lists.4d.com
>> **
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth
> On the second day, God created the oceans.
> On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
>   and did a little diving.
> And God said, "This is good."
> **
> 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
> New Forum: https://discuss.4D.com
> Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
> Options: https://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
> Unsub:  mailto:4d_tech-unsubscr...@lists.4d.com
> **

**
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Re: "Optimal" 4D Server hardware

[Mike Kerner via 4D_Tech]

one other thought on the 32/64 discussion - it seems 18 is 64 only - at
least ODBC pro (for connecting to ODBC data sources) is.

On Sat, Sep 12, 2020 at 8:48 AM Mike Kerner 
wrote:

> I just ordered a new server, Win, because we are using ODBC.  I ordered it
> like the gaming setups - SSD for the OS and mechanical for data.  I hadn't
> thought about adding a third drive for the backups and journal.  Any other
> thoughts/tips?
>
> On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 7:40 PM Randy Kaempen via 4D_Tech <
> 4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
>
>> John,
>>
>> > On Sep 11, 2020, at 5:27 PM, John DeSoi via 4D_Tech <
>> 4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >> On Sep 11, 2020, at 3:38 PM, Randy Kaempen via 4D_Tech <
>> 4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I have a client with about a dozen users and a 230GB data file.  They
>> upgraded their server and we got a top of the line Mac Mini.  Since we
>> expect to use it for a number of years, we got the best processor and maxed
>> out the memory.  You can never have too much memory.  We also got the SSD
>> drive so there won’t be any issues with drives crashing.
>> >
>> > I think SSDs are way more reliable, but I have never heard they are so
>> reliable that a second disk is no longer necessary. Any serious database
>> application needs to keep the database on a different disk from the backup
>> and journal files. I have a similar Mac Mini setup but added the fastest
>> external thunderbolt disk I could find for the journal file and backup
>> files.
>>
>> Agreed.  For the record, the client that uses the external SSD has their
>> backups and journals on the SSD on the Mac itself, so they _are_ on
>> separate drives.  We also have an offsite backup to Backblaze.  I also have
>> a client who has their Time Machine backup on a Drobo, which gives double
>> backup.
>>
>>
>> Randy Kaempen
>> Intellex Corporation
>>
>> **
>> 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
>> New Forum: https://discuss.4D.com
>> Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
>> Options: https://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
>> Unsub:  mailto:4d_tech-unsubscr...@lists.4d.com
>> **
>
>
>
> --
> On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth
> On the second day, God created the oceans.
> On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
>and did a little diving.
> And God said, "This is good."
>


-- 
On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth
On the second day, God created the oceans.
On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
   and did a little diving.
And God said, "This is good."
**
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Re: "Optimal" 4D Server hardware

[Mike Kerner via 4D_Tech]

I just ordered a new server, Win, because we are using ODBC.  I ordered it
like the gaming setups - SSD for the OS and mechanical for data.  I hadn't
thought about adding a third drive for the backups and journal.  Any other
thoughts/tips?

On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 7:40 PM Randy Kaempen via 4D_Tech <
4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:

> John,
>
> > On Sep 11, 2020, at 5:27 PM, John DeSoi via 4D_Tech <
> 4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >> On Sep 11, 2020, at 3:38 PM, Randy Kaempen via 4D_Tech <
> 4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> I have a client with about a dozen users and a 230GB data file.  They
> upgraded their server and we got a top of the line Mac Mini.  Since we
> expect to use it for a number of years, we got the best processor and maxed
> out the memory.  You can never have too much memory.  We also got the SSD
> drive so there won’t be any issues with drives crashing.
> >
> > I think SSDs are way more reliable, but I have never heard they are so
> reliable that a second disk is no longer necessary. Any serious database
> application needs to keep the database on a different disk from the backup
> and journal files. I have a similar Mac Mini setup but added the fastest
> external thunderbolt disk I could find for the journal file and backup
> files.
>
> Agreed.  For the record, the client that uses the external SSD has their
> backups and journals on the SSD on the Mac itself, so they _are_ on
> separate drives.  We also have an offsite backup to Backblaze.  I also have
> a client who has their Time Machine backup on a Drobo, which gives double
> backup.
>
>
> Randy Kaempen
> Intellex Corporation
>
> **
> 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
> New Forum: https://discuss.4D.com
> Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
> Options: https://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
> Unsub:  mailto:4d_tech-unsubscr...@lists.4d.com
> **



-- 
On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth
On the second day, God created the oceans.
On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
   and did a little diving.
And God said, "This is good."
**
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Re: "Optimal" 4D Server hardware

[Randy Kaempen via 4D_Tech]

John,

> On Sep 11, 2020, at 5:27 PM, John DeSoi via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Sep 11, 2020, at 3:38 PM, Randy Kaempen via 4D_Tech 
>> <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
>> 
>> I have a client with about a dozen users and a 230GB data file.  They 
>> upgraded their server and we got a top of the line Mac Mini.  Since we 
>> expect to use it for a number of years, we got the best processor and maxed 
>> out the memory.  You can never have too much memory.  We also got the SSD 
>> drive so there won’t be any issues with drives crashing.  
> 
> I think SSDs are way more reliable, but I have never heard they are so 
> reliable that a second disk is no longer necessary. Any serious database 
> application needs to keep the database on a different disk from the backup 
> and journal files. I have a similar Mac Mini setup but added the fastest 
> external thunderbolt disk I could find for the journal file and backup files.

Agreed.  For the record, the client that uses the external SSD has their 
backups and journals on the SSD on the Mac itself, so they _are_ on separate 
drives.  We also have an offsite backup to Backblaze.  I also have a client who 
has their Time Machine backup on a Drobo, which gives double backup.


Randy Kaempen
Intellex Corporation

**
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Re: "Optimal" 4D Server hardware

[Tom Benedict via 4D_Tech]

One big benefit of running Windows is that you continue to run 32bit apps, 
seemingly forever. I don’t know whether Microsoft has a sunset plan for 32bit, 
but it’s been very nice to not be forced into 64bit, given the massive dev/test 
effort required to bring 4D apps into the 64bit client future.

Looks like Apple may be doing it again with Apple Silicon. 

Tom Benedict

> On Sep 11, 2020, at 15:16, Kirk Brooks via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> David,
> I invite you to check out the new 4D forum at https://discuss.4d.com/
> It's a huge improvement over the old forum and this list. Plus a lot more
> people are active there.
> 
> But to your point Tom and Randy are both giving you solid advice. I will
> add that my experience with 4D server is the one place I recommend a
> Windows machine over Mac hands down. They are seriously faster. Just are.
> And much more bang for the buck. You don't need an expensive Windows Server
> license if it is only running 4D. Win 10 Pro will give you everything you
> need.
> 
> It sounds like this is installed in an office and the Mac Mini is only
> running 4D (8 gigs of RAM is not very much). You didn't say which version
> of 4D which is important. Also whether you are using the web server which
> increases the RAM you want.
> 
> 64 bit requires roughly twice as much RAM as 32 bit on the machines and
> within 4D. If your code has been updated and kept up all the calls to start
> new processes are probably using 0 as the default stack size - which let's
> 4D set the stack size and adjusts for the operating environment. If not
> it's using some number that was probably set before 64 bit was a thing and
> it's way too small.
> 
> If you buy a new Mac you will get Catalina which means you WILL run 64 bit.
> Apple is announcing something next week. Speaking as someone who bought one
> of the new-cool touch bar MBPs in 2016 (and it's been a truly crappy
> machine) you don't want to be one of the first to get a Mac Mini with the
> new hardware for a business critical application like this. Plus, if you
> need to continue to run 32 bit
> 
> Finally I see you have an SSD RAID. I'm curious about that. Typically I'll
> use a mirrored SSD for the primary drive and have some large mirrored hard
> disk to use for things like backups. I'm curious how you all decided to use
> that much of a RAID on a Mac Mini?
> 
> On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 2:22 PM Tom Benedict via 4D_Tech <
> 4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
> 
>> Hi David,
>> 
>> I think the answer really depends on number of things:
>> 
>> - How much growth you expect, in terms of concurrent users/processes and
>> data file size, over the next 3-5 years.
>> 
>> - How is your application expected to change over then next 3 - 5 years.
>> 
>> - What kind of IT support you have.
>> 
>> - What does your application do? Is it all internal facing using 4D
>> Client? Does it have Web Clients? Does it connect to other internal and
>> external systems?
>> 
>> If you have mostly MacOS IT support and experience, and you expect modest
>> growth in your user base and application in the future, and your app is
>> currently performing well, it’s an easy decision to get another Mac Mini
>> (maybe with more RAM).
>> 
>> If you expect to double (or more) your users and data and expand your
>> applications capabilities, and your current system performance is mediocre,
>> and you have some Windows IT support, you could consider getting a Windows
>> server.
>> 
>> I’m assuming your existing system has sufficient redundancy to meet the
>> requirements of your corporate Disaster Recovery Plan.
>> 
>> And one more thing. If you buy a new MacOS machine today you will likely
>> have to run 64bit, which means your app needs to be 64bit compatible. If
>> it’s not already 64bit compatible, that may be considerable work, depending
>> on the nature of your app.
>> 
>> HTH,
>> 
>> Tom Benedict
>> 
>> 
>>> On Sep 11, 2020, at 13:08, David Loeppky via 4D_Tech <
>> 4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I'm ready to upgrade our 4D server machine and would welcome any insights
>>> and recommendations.
>>> 
>>> Some details:
>>> - 40 Users (Mac and Windows)
>>> - 4GB data file
>>> - 120 tables
>>> - The current server is a 2011 Mac Mini with 8GB and raid 4XSSD HD
>>> 
>>> Questions about the new server:
>>> - Windows or Mac?
>>> - Recommended features.
>>> 
>>> Many thanks for the input.
>>> 
>>> --
>>> 
>>> Regards,
>>> 
>>> David Loeppky
>>> 
>> 
>> **
>> 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
>> New Forum: https://discuss.4D.com
>> Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
>> Options: https://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
>> Unsub:  mailto:4d_tech-unsubscr...@lists.4d.com
>> **
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Kirk Brooks
> San Francisco, CA
> ==
> **
> 

Re: "Optimal" 4D Server hardware

[John DeSoi via 4D_Tech]

> On Sep 11, 2020, at 3:38 PM, Randy Kaempen via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> I have a client with about a dozen users and a 230GB data file.  They 
> upgraded their server and we got a top of the line Mac Mini.  Since we expect 
> to use it for a number of years, we got the best processor and maxed out the 
> memory.  You can never have too much memory.  We also got the SSD drive so 
> there won’t be any issues with drives crashing.  

I think SSDs are way more reliable, but I have never heard they are so reliable 
that a second disk is no longer necessary. Any serious database application 
needs to keep the database on a different disk from the backup and journal 
files. I have a similar Mac Mini setup but added the fastest external 
thunderbolt disk I could find for the journal file and backup files.

> 
> I also have clients who use an external SSD drive for their structure and 
> data file.  The thought there is that if there is a problem with the 
> computer, you just replace it with another one and you could get going again 
> without losing or having to move your data.

If you don't really analyze the specs, an external SSD can be a lot slower than 
the Mac built in drive. Important for databases.

John DeSoi, Ph.D.

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Re: "Optimal" 4D Server hardware

[Kirk Brooks via 4D_Tech]

David,
I invite you to check out the new 4D forum at https://discuss.4d.com/
It's a huge improvement over the old forum and this list. Plus a lot more
people are active there.

But to your point Tom and Randy are both giving you solid advice. I will
add that my experience with 4D server is the one place I recommend a
Windows machine over Mac hands down. They are seriously faster. Just are.
And much more bang for the buck. You don't need an expensive Windows Server
license if it is only running 4D. Win 10 Pro will give you everything you
need.

It sounds like this is installed in an office and the Mac Mini is only
running 4D (8 gigs of RAM is not very much). You didn't say which version
of 4D which is important. Also whether you are using the web server which
increases the RAM you want.

64 bit requires roughly twice as much RAM as 32 bit on the machines and
within 4D. If your code has been updated and kept up all the calls to start
new processes are probably using 0 as the default stack size - which let's
4D set the stack size and adjusts for the operating environment. If not
it's using some number that was probably set before 64 bit was a thing and
it's way too small.

If you buy a new Mac you will get Catalina which means you WILL run 64 bit.
Apple is announcing something next week. Speaking as someone who bought one
of the new-cool touch bar MBPs in 2016 (and it's been a truly crappy
machine) you don't want to be one of the first to get a Mac Mini with the
new hardware for a business critical application like this. Plus, if you
need to continue to run 32 bit

Finally I see you have an SSD RAID. I'm curious about that. Typically I'll
use a mirrored SSD for the primary drive and have some large mirrored hard
disk to use for things like backups. I'm curious how you all decided to use
that much of a RAID on a Mac Mini?

On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 2:22 PM Tom Benedict via 4D_Tech <
4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:

> Hi David,
>
> I think the answer really depends on number of things:
>
> - How much growth you expect, in terms of concurrent users/processes and
> data file size, over the next 3-5 years.
>
> - How is your application expected to change over then next 3 - 5 years.
>
> - What kind of IT support you have.
>
> - What does your application do? Is it all internal facing using 4D
> Client? Does it have Web Clients? Does it connect to other internal and
> external systems?
>
> If you have mostly MacOS IT support and experience, and you expect modest
> growth in your user base and application in the future, and your app is
> currently performing well, it’s an easy decision to get another Mac Mini
> (maybe with more RAM).
>
> If you expect to double (or more) your users and data and expand your
> applications capabilities, and your current system performance is mediocre,
> and you have some Windows IT support, you could consider getting a Windows
> server.
>
> I’m assuming your existing system has sufficient redundancy to meet the
> requirements of your corporate Disaster Recovery Plan.
>
> And one more thing. If you buy a new MacOS machine today you will likely
> have to run 64bit, which means your app needs to be 64bit compatible. If
> it’s not already 64bit compatible, that may be considerable work, depending
> on the nature of your app.
>
> HTH,
>
> Tom Benedict
>
>
> > On Sep 11, 2020, at 13:08, David Loeppky via 4D_Tech <
> 4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
> >
> > I'm ready to upgrade our 4D server machine and would welcome any insights
> > and recommendations.
> >
> > Some details:
> > - 40 Users (Mac and Windows)
> > - 4GB data file
> > - 120 tables
> > - The current server is a 2011 Mac Mini with 8GB and raid 4XSSD HD
> >
> > Questions about the new server:
> > - Windows or Mac?
> > - Recommended features.
> >
> > Many thanks for the input.
> >
> > --
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > David Loeppky
> >
>
> **
> 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
> New Forum: https://discuss.4D.com
> Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
> Options: https://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
> Unsub:  mailto:4d_tech-unsubscr...@lists.4d.com
> **



-- 
Kirk Brooks
San Francisco, CA
==
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Re: "Optimal" 4D Server hardware

[Tom Benedict via 4D_Tech]

Hi David,

I think the answer really depends on number of things:

- How much growth you expect, in terms of concurrent users/processes and data 
file size, over the next 3-5 years.

- How is your application expected to change over then next 3 - 5 years.

- What kind of IT support you have. 

- What does your application do? Is it all internal facing using 4D Client? 
Does it have Web Clients? Does it connect to other internal and external 
systems?

If you have mostly MacOS IT support and experience, and you expect modest 
growth in your user base and application in the future, and your app is 
currently performing well, it’s an easy decision to get another Mac Mini (maybe 
with more RAM).

If you expect to double (or more) your users and data and expand your 
applications capabilities, and your current system performance is mediocre, and 
you have some Windows IT support, you could consider getting a Windows server.  

I’m assuming your existing system has sufficient redundancy to meet the 
requirements of your corporate Disaster Recovery Plan. 

And one more thing. If you buy a new MacOS machine today you will likely have 
to run 64bit, which means your app needs to be 64bit compatible. If it’s not 
already 64bit compatible, that may be considerable work, depending on the 
nature of your app.

HTH,

Tom Benedict


> On Sep 11, 2020, at 13:08, David Loeppky via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> I'm ready to upgrade our 4D server machine and would welcome any insights
> and recommendations.
> 
> Some details:
> - 40 Users (Mac and Windows)
> - 4GB data file
> - 120 tables
> - The current server is a 2011 Mac Mini with 8GB and raid 4XSSD HD
> 
> Questions about the new server:
> - Windows or Mac?
> - Recommended features.
> 
> Many thanks for the input.
> 
> -- 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> David Loeppky
> 

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Re: "Optimal" 4D Server hardware

[Lee Hinde via 4D_Tech]

Are you having any performance issues now?

My 2¢, with that datafile size, I'd just get more of the same (current 
MacMini),  with 16GB RAM. 

Unless your in-house expertise is more comfortable with Windows.

> On Sep 11, 2020, at 1:08 PM, David Loeppky via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> I'm ready to upgrade our 4D server machine and would welcome any insights
> and recommendations.
> 
> Some details:
> - 40 Users (Mac and Windows)
> - 4GB data file
> - 120 tables
> - The current server is a 2011 Mac Mini with 8GB and raid 4XSSD HD
> 
> Questions about the new server:
> - Windows or Mac?
> - Recommended features.
> 
> Many thanks for the input.
> 
> -- 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> David Loeppky
> 
> Co-Owner
> 
> T: 360.380.1908 x111
> 
> M: 360.319.9141
> 
> F: 360.384.3673
> 
> *dav...@chuckanutbay.com *
> 
> 
> 

**
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Re: "Optimal" 4D Server hardware

[Randy Kaempen via 4D_Tech]

David,

I have a client with about a dozen users and a 230GB data file.  They upgraded 
their server and we got a top of the line Mac Mini.  Since we expect to use it 
for a number of years, we got the best processor and maxed out the memory.  You 
can never have too much memory.  We also got the SSD drive so there won’t be 
any issues with drives crashing.  

I also have clients who use an external SSD drive for their structure and data 
file.  The thought there is that if there is a problem with the computer, you 
just replace it with another one and you could get going again without losing 
or having to move your data.

Keep in mind that a new computer will come with the latest Mac OS.  You need to 
be running a version of 4D that works with that OS.   Sometimes, it’s better to 
buy a new computer with the previous OS before the new one is released (like 
now before Big Sur comes out).


Randy Kaempen
Intellex Corporation

> On Sep 11, 2020, at 3:08 PM, David Loeppky via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> I'm ready to upgrade our 4D server machine and would welcome any insights
> and recommendations.
> 
> Some details:
> - 40 Users (Mac and Windows)
> - 4GB data file
> - 120 tables
> - The current server is a 2011 Mac Mini with 8GB and raid 4XSSD HD
> 
> Questions about the new server:
> - Windows or Mac?
> - Recommended features.
> 
> Many thanks for the input.
> 
> -- 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> David Loeppky
> 
> Co-Owner
> 
> T: 360.380.1908 x111
> 
> M: 360.319.9141
> 
> F: 360.384.3673
> 
> *dav...@chuckanutbay.com *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> **
> 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
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