[9fans] Spell checking with acme in p9p
When recently I discovered Plan9, the first things I missed were a
non-only-English spell checker, support for other languages in troff
(mostly hyphenation), and other dictionaries for dict. I've ported
international ispell to ape and write aispell, a modified version of
aspell script that work with ispell, I've formatted GCIDE, Chambers's
Twentieth Century Dictionary, Diccionario de la Real Academia de la
Lengua Española, Moby Thesaursus and OpenThesaurus-es, and I was
hopping working in troff when I'll learn programming. The lack of a
web browser capable of deal with today's madness and the portability
limitation of ape (at least for a ignorant like me) forcesme to deal
with other OS I have to install and maintaining, so the simplicity and
cleanness I like so much of plan9 become useless. Thanks to Russ Cox for P9P!
I've write a script for p9p too, you only need to install gnu
aspell (or other spell checker with ispell -a support) and compile a
slightly modified spout.c with rune support (I've called it uspout), so you can
use the script like native acme's aspell script. This is from my README.PLAN9
file:
[...]
In the acme directory are aispell, an equivalent script of aspell and
uspout.c, slighted modified spout.c for UTF-8 runes, needed by aispell
to support non English languages. You can pass ispell options as
arguments to aispell, for example for use the Spanish dictionary you can put
in the tag:
aispell -despañol -Tutf8
Or put 'aispell -despañol -Tutf8 $*' in a script and call
it aispelles, for example. Defining a function in lib/profile didn't
work for me... You can use it in any text selected, but for now, if
it doesn't start at the beginning of the buffer, the output's
addresses will be wrong. This package install American and British
dictionaries. If you are interested, look at the Spanish_ispell package I've
ported from http://www.datsi.fi.upm.es/~coes.
[...]
In P9P you don't need -Tutf8. I was going to ask for a directory in
sources, but I haven't see any interest in those things in the list. I hope
that this will help you.
The script and spout's source are small, so I'm going to paste both here.
trebol.
#!/usr/local/plan9/bin/rc
# Don't forget to check the path!
# aispell_p9p
rm -f /tmp/$pid^'.'aispell
spellpgr=aspell
args=()
spellflags=()
for(x){
switch($x){
case -d*
spellflags=($spellflags $x)
case -p*
spellflags=($spellflags $x)
case -T*
spellflags=($spellflags $x)
case *
args=($args $x)
}
}
id=`{9p read acme/new/ctl}
id=$id(1)
echo 'name '^`{pwd}^/-spell | 9p write acme/$id/ctl
{
if(~ $#args 0){
cat /tmp/$pid^'.'aispell
args=/tmp/$pid^'.'aispell
pipe=1
}
for(i in $args){
name=$i
if(~ $pipe 1){
name=`{9p read acme/$winid/tag | 9 sed 's/
.*//g'}
if(~ name '') name=nonamedwindow
}
for(j in `{{cat $i; echo} | uspout | 9 sort -t: -u +2 | 9 sed
's/$/\!/g' | $spellpgr -a $spellflags | 9 grep '^[#]' | 9 sed 's/ /_/g'}){
# {cat $i; echo} is for uspout, needs \n. Also I want to make a
list of lines, so j can't have spaces
miss=`{ echo $j | awk -F_ '{print $2}'}
sug=`{ echo $j | 9 sed 's/^.*://g'} # Can't put 9 grep
-v '^#' here...
{cat $i; echo} |
uspout |
9 grep '.*:'$miss'$' |
9 sed 's/$/ '$sug'/g' | # If I put 9 grep -v '^#'
above, this 9 sed cuts output, I don't know why ...
9 sed 's/#_.*$//g' |
9 sed 's/_/ /g' | # If I put 9 sed 's/_/ /g' above,
variables don't work in 9 sed. Again, I don't know why...
9 sed s',^,'$name',g' | 9p write acme/$id/body
}
}
rm -f /tmp/$pid^'.'aispell
echo clean | 9p write acme/$id/ctl
}
uspout.c's source:
#include u.h
#include libc.h
#include ctype.h
#include bio.h
voidspout(int, char*);
Biobuf bout;
void
main(int argc, char *argv[])
{
int i, fd;
Binit(bout, 1, OWRITE);
if(argc == 1)
spout(0, );
else
for(i=1; iargc; i++){
fd = open(argv[i], OREAD);
if(fd 0){
fprint(2, spell: can't open %s: %r\n,
argv[i]);
continue;
}
spout(fd, argv[i]);
close(fd);
}
exits(nil);
}
Biobuf b;
void
spout(int fd, char *name)
{
char *s, *t, *w;
Rune r;
int inword, wordchar;
int n, wn, wid, c,
Re: [9fans] Spell checking with acme in p9p
Sometimes (for long pieces of text like blog posts) I use wwb to check style and readability. Correcting something usually is 1. Right-click the line number in +errors 2. Correct 3. Go back to 1 For spell checking, tweaking aspell's output is best. Also, keep in mind that all the steps can be (after tweaking) 1. Double click the correct word in +Errors 2. 2-3 chord to copy it (so you don't even leave the line or mouse) 2. 3 click the line number (I think there is a way to use :lineno with an additional regex, that would be handy here to directly land on the word) 3. Double click the wrong word 4. Without leaving 1 pressed, 3 to paste (pressing command if on trackpad) It's pretty fast, actually. Beware of adding column pos to aspell output, since after editing the buffer these will change. By the way, do you know about 1-2 chords, don't you? For some of these tasks it may be useful. Ruben PS: Sent it a while ago, always forgetting I don't have this email account configured on my iPad :/ On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 3:46 AM, Blake McBride bl...@mcbride.name wrote: Greetings, I am trying to get spell checking working with acme on a Mac using p9p. I am using the following script: # aspell pipe |grep '^' When run on a text selection (with ), it returns me with a list of incorrectly spelled words along with a list of potential corrections. Each line represents the misspelled word and its suggested corrections. Cool, I've got what I need. I can modify what it returns through awk to give me the line and character of the word, and reformat the line to be more meaningful to acmeif it would be helpful. The problem is that there are a lot of steps to make a correction. I think I need to: 1. snarf the misspelled word from the Errors buffer 2. Paste the word into the tag line of the file being checked 3. Right-click on the word in the tag line to find it in the input file 4. Select the correct spelling from one of the aspell suggestions in the Errors window and snarf it. 5. Select the incorrectly spelled word in the input file and paste the corrected word in its place. As I said earlier, I may be able to simplify a step or so by reformatting the result of the spell check with awk, but I'm not sure what would be helpful yet. So, I guess the point of this is that there are a lot of steps necessary to correct a text's spelling. It would be easier just to do: aspell check file.txt But that would be side-stepping acme. I am just wondering how others handle this situation. Thank you! Blake McBride
Re: [9fans] Can't start multiple copies of acme
you may change $NAMESPACE, cf. intro(4) % mkdir /tmp/foo; NAMESPACE=/tmp/foo acme
Re: [9fans] Spell checking with acme in p9p
On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 6:01 AM, Rubén Berenguel ru...@mostlymaths.netwrote: By the way, do you know about 1-2 chords, don't you? For some of these tasks it may be useful. I have only a vague notion of chords at this point. I have two button mouse. I simulate the button-2 with alt-left-click. Because of this I thought I might not even be able to do chords. As you can tell, I am just learning acme. So far, I have been successful in making it my main editor. I initially spent a bunch of time with sam. I like it a lot too. I had a problem with sam trying to deal with multiple buffers. I understand the ability to define where they are displayed but switching between a bunch of buffers was inconvenient. IMO, acme is much better at handling multiple windows since you can drag things around very easily. Acme's ability to dump/load state is very convenient too. One big thing I like about sam is the edit window. I can deal with a buffer in sudu-ed commands and see the results. I like this. One thing I just noticed about acme which I don't yet understand is the following. I just noticed that I can click-drag with the button-2 and button-3 too. Didn't realize this before. Not sure what they do yet. Another thing that I don't think can be done with acme but I am wondering is as follows. When you have a command in a window (Undo for example), the command affects either the window it is in, or the window it is a tag for. Sometimes, like when you issue a command and the result goes to the Errors window, I would like to be able to execute text in the Errors window that would affect the window the Error window represents. This would be very powerful. I could highlight text in a window, execute a command on it, and that command would provide me with a series of commands I can run on the original window to perform some operation (since the original window and the Error window are related at that point). Anyway, please let me know if this is possible. Thanks a lot for all the help!! Blake
Re: [9fans] Can't start multiple copies of acme
I checked. The following shell script does the trick: # mkdir /tmp/acme-$$ NAMESPACE=/tmp/acme-$$ acme $@ On Fri, Dec 13, 2013 at 11:31 AM, User ho...@awesom.eu wrote: you may change $NAMESPACE, cf. intro(4) % mkdir /tmp/foo; NAMESPACE=/tmp/foo acme
Re: [9fans] Acme: spaces in file names
Discovering button-3-drag, is there a reason button-3-drag could not be made to load a file or directory with spaces in it? In other words, would this conflict with some other intended operation? Thanks. Blake On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 3:10 PM, Blake McBride bl...@mcbride.name wrote: When you button-2-click on text acme executes the word. If you want to execute something larger with spaces, you highlight the whole thing and then button-2-click on it to execute the whole thing. When you button-3-click on text in a file list buffer acme loads the file with that name. I should be able to highlight a file name with spaces and then button-3-click on it to load the file. This would be totally consistent. It there a reason this hasn't been done? Thanks. Blake On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 11:00 AM, Rubén Berenguel ru...@mostlymaths.netwrote: A kind of crude workaround is using the whole /Users/whatever/file with spaces, selecting it with first button and 1-2 chording it to Get. This works on Mac, problem is that it's quite horrible to do. An intermediate solution may be to use some piping rule like sp:filename with spaces, but I don't remember if piping works with right-button and selected text or follows the same rules as opening a file. Ruben On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 5:53 PM, Robert Raschke rtrli...@googlemail.comwrote: Someone once made a little filesystem that would substitute spaces in filenames with a different character. When placed between the normal fs and Acme, this would make things work quite nicely. If I remember correctly, Acme-SAC (built on top of Inferno) does that by default. No idea where you can find such a fs for Mac though. But this might give you a start. Robby On Dec 11, 2013 6:19 PM, Blake McBride bl...@mcbride.name wrote: Greetings, Just started using acme (and sam). Cool. I am using acme on a Mac form plan9port. Within a file list one can right-click a listing in order to decend into another directory or load a file. The problem is that neither work if a space is contained within the name. Apparently, the right-click functionality only looks at non-white space strings. An easy fix to this would be to allow the user to highlight the entire string (including spaces) and then right-click as normal. The system would allow the highlight facility to override the just test for contigous non-space string current functionality. Any thoughts on this? Thanks. Blake McBride
Re: [9fans] Acme: spaces in file names
I think the reason is that filenames with spaces are not very common in Plan 9. If you're running plumber, you can probably adjust the regular exressions for file matching in your $HOME/lib/plumbing file. If you don't have that file yet: 9p read plumb/rules $HOME/lib/plumbing ~Fritz Am 15.12.2013 16:25, schrieb Blake McBride: Discovering button-3-drag, is there a reason button-3-drag could not be made to load a file or directory with spaces in it? In other words, would this conflict with some other intended operation? Thanks. Blake On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 3:10 PM, Blake McBride bl...@mcbride.name mailto:bl...@mcbride.name wrote: When you button-2-click on text acme executes the word. If you want to execute something larger with spaces, you highlight the whole thing and then button-2-click on it to execute the whole thing. When you button-3-click on text in a file list buffer acme loads the file with that name. I should be able to highlight a file name with spaces and then button-3-click on it to load the file. This would be totally consistent. It there a reason this hasn't been done? Thanks. Blake On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 11:00 AM, Rubén Berenguel ru...@mostlymaths.net mailto:ru...@mostlymaths.net wrote: A kind of crude workaround is using the whole /Users/whatever/file with spaces, selecting it with first button and 1-2 chording it to Get. This works on Mac, problem is that it's quite horrible to do. An intermediate solution may be to use some piping rule like sp:filename with spaces, but I don't remember if piping works with right-button and selected text or follows the same rules as opening a file. Ruben On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 5:53 PM, Robert Raschke rtrli...@googlemail.com mailto:rtrli...@googlemail.com wrote: Someone once made a little filesystem that would substitute spaces in filenames with a different character. When placed between the normal fs and Acme, this would make things work quite nicely. If I remember correctly, Acme-SAC (built on top of Inferno) does that by default. No idea where you can find such a fs for Mac though. But this might give you a start. Robby On Dec 11, 2013 6:19 PM, Blake McBride bl...@mcbride.name mailto:bl...@mcbride.name wrote: Greetings, Just started using acme (and sam). Cool. I am using acme on a Mac form plan9port. Within a file list one can right-click a listing in order to decend into another directory or load a file. The problem is that neither work if a space is contained within the name. Apparently, the right-click functionality only looks at non-white space strings. An easy fix to this would be to allow the user to highlight the entire string (including spaces) and then right-click as normal. The system would allow the highlight facility to override the just test for contigous non-space string current functionality. Any thoughts on this? Thanks. Blake McBride
Re: [9fans] Can't start multiple copies of acme
On Sun Dec 15 10:23:13 EST 2013, bl...@mcbride.name wrote: I checked. The following shell script does the trick: # mkdir /tmp/acme-$$ NAMESPACE=/tmp/acme-$$ acme $@ this is swimming up stream. acme's model is to run 1 copy of acme, and edit all files in it. many things, such as plumbing, will work better with 1 copy of acme. by the way, this limitation is p9p specific. but still it's no fun to have the same file get plumbed to every acme. - erik
Re: [9fans] Spell checking with acme in p9p
window, I would like to be able to execute text in the Errors window that would affect the window the Error window represents. This would be very powerful. I could highlight text in a window, execute a command on it, and that command would provide me with a series of commands I can run on the original window to perform some operation (since the original window and the Error window are related at that point). Anyway, please let me know if this is possible. if the directory is properly set for the +Errors window (unfortunately it's not), then external commands will be run in the same directory. but Edit commands do not refer to the original window. without some major rearrangment of acme's internals, i don't think this is possible. this would be like having a ~~sam~~ window. - erik
Re: [9fans] Acme: spaces in file names
Blake-Mac-17:tmp blake$ 9p read plumb/rules 9p: mount: dial unix!/tmp/ns.blake._tmp_launch-nvfpC3_org.x:0/plumb: connect /tmp/ns.blake._tmp_launch-nvfpC3_org.x:0/plumb: No such file I don't have to do this when I search for text with spaces, or to execute a command with spaces. Not being able to load files or directories with spaces is, and I mean this in the most respectfull way, short sighted and inconsistent IMO. As long as a fix doesn't limit some existing functionality, I think it should be corrected. I am qualified to make such a correction but, not being familiar with the code, I estimate it would take me a whole day to do. I'd bet it would take someone famaliar with the code an hour. My time, like all of yours, is very limited. I will make the change when my time permits. My hope is that someone more familiar with the code can make it before then. Thanks. Blake On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 9:38 AM, Friedrich Psiorz f.psi...@gmx.de wrote: I think the reason is that filenames with spaces are not very common in Plan 9. If you're running plumber, you can probably adjust the regular exressions for file matching in your $HOME/lib/plumbing file. If you don't have that file yet: 9p read plumb/rules $HOME/lib/plumbing ~Fritz Am 15.12.2013 16:25, schrieb Blake McBride: Discovering button-3-drag, is there a reason button-3-drag could not be made to load a file or directory with spaces in it? In other words, would this conflict with some other intended operation? Thanks. Blake On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 3:10 PM, Blake McBride bl...@mcbride.name mailto:bl...@mcbride.name wrote: When you button-2-click on text acme executes the word. If you want to execute something larger with spaces, you highlight the whole thing and then button-2-click on it to execute the whole thing. When you button-3-click on text in a file list buffer acme loads the file with that name. I should be able to highlight a file name with spaces and then button-3-click on it to load the file. This would be totally consistent. It there a reason this hasn't been done? Thanks. Blake On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 11:00 AM, Rubén Berenguel ru...@mostlymaths.net mailto:ru...@mostlymaths.net wrote: A kind of crude workaround is using the whole /Users/whatever/file with spaces, selecting it with first button and 1-2 chording it to Get. This works on Mac, problem is that it's quite horrible to do. An intermediate solution may be to use some piping rule like sp:filename with spaces, but I don't remember if piping works with right-button and selected text or follows the same rules as opening a file. Ruben On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 5:53 PM, Robert Raschke rtrli...@googlemail.com mailto:rtrli...@googlemail.com wrote: Someone once made a little filesystem that would substitute spaces in filenames with a different character. When placed between the normal fs and Acme, this would make things work quite nicely. If I remember correctly, Acme-SAC (built on top of Inferno) does that by default. No idea where you can find such a fs for Mac though. But this might give you a start. Robby On Dec 11, 2013 6:19 PM, Blake McBride bl...@mcbride.name mailto:bl...@mcbride.name wrote: Greetings, Just started using acme (and sam). Cool. I am using acme on a Mac form plan9port. Within a file list one can right-click a listing in order to decend into another directory or load a file. The problem is that neither work if a space is contained within the name. Apparently, the right-click functionality only looks at non-white space strings. An easy fix to this would be to allow the user to highlight the entire string (including spaces) and then right-click as normal. The system would allow the highlight facility to override the just test for contigous non-space string current functionality. Any thoughts on this? Thanks. Blake McBride
Re: [9fans] Spell checking with acme in p9p
Sometimes, like when you issue a command and the result goes to the Errors window, I would like to be able to execute text in the Errors window that would affect the window the Error window represents. This would be very powerful. If the original window already has the Edit command in the tag, and the commands in +Error (or some other window) are in sam's language, you can select those commands with B1 and then execute them in the context of the original window by a B2-B1 chord on that window's Edit. Closely related: http://9fans.net/archive/2009/06/138 Mark.
Re: [9fans] Acme: spaces in file names
To use the plumber, you have to start it first. Then you can configure all the Button-3 behavior you want. No need to change the hard coded backup behavior. Am 15.12.2013 17:19, schrieb Blake McBride: Blake-Mac-17:tmp blake$ 9p read plumb/rules 9p: mount: dial unix!/tmp/ns.blake._tmp_launch-nvfpC3_org.x:0/plumb: connect /tmp/ns.blake._tmp_launch-nvfpC3_org.x:0/plumb: No such file I don't have to do this when I search for text with spaces, or to execute a command with spaces. Not being able to load files or directories with spaces is, and I mean this in the most respectfull way, short sighted and inconsistent IMO. As long as a fix doesn't limit some existing functionality, I think it should be corrected. I am qualified to make such a correction but, not being familiar with the code, I estimate it would take me a whole day to do. I'd bet it would take someone famaliar with the code an hour. My time, like all of yours, is very limited. I will make the change when my time permits. My hope is that someone more familiar with the code can make it before then. Thanks. Blake On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 9:38 AM, Friedrich Psiorz f.psi...@gmx.de mailto:f.psi...@gmx.de wrote: I think the reason is that filenames with spaces are not very common in Plan 9. If you're running plumber, you can probably adjust the regular exressions for file matching in your $HOME/lib/plumbing file. If you don't have that file yet: 9p read plumb/rules $HOME/lib/plumbing ~Fritz Am 15.12.2013 16:25, schrieb Blake McBride: Discovering button-3-drag, is there a reason button-3-drag could not be made to load a file or directory with spaces in it? In other words, would this conflict with some other intended operation? Thanks. Blake On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 3:10 PM, Blake McBride bl...@mcbride.name mailto:bl...@mcbride.name mailto:bl...@mcbride.name mailto:bl...@mcbride.name wrote: When you button-2-click on text acme executes the word. If you want to execute something larger with spaces, you highlight the whole thing and then button-2-click on it to execute the whole thing. When you button-3-click on text in a file list buffer acme loads the file with that name. I should be able to highlight a file name with spaces and then button-3-click on it to load the file. This would be totally consistent. It there a reason this hasn't been done? Thanks. Blake On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 11:00 AM, Rubén Berenguel ru...@mostlymaths.net mailto:ru...@mostlymaths.net mailto:ru...@mostlymaths.net mailto:ru...@mostlymaths.net wrote: A kind of crude workaround is using the whole /Users/whatever/file with spaces, selecting it with first button and 1-2 chording it to Get. This works on Mac, problem is that it's quite horrible to do. An intermediate solution may be to use some piping rule like sp:filename with spaces, but I don't remember if piping works with right-button and selected text or follows the same rules as opening a file. Ruben On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 5:53 PM, Robert Raschke rtrli...@googlemail.com mailto:rtrli...@googlemail.com mailto:rtrli...@googlemail.com mailto:rtrli...@googlemail.com wrote: Someone once made a little filesystem that would substitute spaces in filenames with a different character. When placed between the normal fs and Acme, this would make things work quite nicely. If I remember correctly, Acme-SAC (built on top of Inferno) does that by default. No idea where you can find such a fs for Mac though. But this might give you a start. Robby On Dec 11, 2013 6:19 PM, Blake McBride bl...@mcbride.name mailto:bl...@mcbride.name mailto:bl...@mcbride.name mailto:bl...@mcbride.name wrote: Greetings, Just started using acme (and sam). Cool. I am using acme on a Mac form plan9port. Within a file list one can right-click a listing in order to decend into another directory or load a file. The problem is that neither work if a space is contained within the name. Apparently, the right-click functionality only looks at non-white space strings. An
Re: [9fans] Can't start multiple copies of acme
I don't say it is very common, but I do run multiple acmes under Plan 9 sometimes. With vastly different name spaces. 2013/12/15 erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.net On Sun Dec 15 10:23:13 EST 2013, bl...@mcbride.name wrote: I checked. The following shell script does the trick: # mkdir /tmp/acme-$$ NAMESPACE=/tmp/acme-$$ acme $@ this is swimming up stream. acme's model is to run 1 copy of acme, and edit all files in it. many things, such as plumbing, will work better with 1 copy of acme. by the way, this limitation is p9p specific. but still it's no fun to have the same file get plumbed to every acme. - erik
Re: [9fans] Can't start multiple copies of acme
On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 10:00 AM, erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.netwrote: On Sun Dec 15 10:23:13 EST 2013, bl...@mcbride.name wrote: I checked. The following shell script does the trick: # mkdir /tmp/acme-$$ NAMESPACE=/tmp/acme-$$ acme $@ this is swimming up stream. acme's model is to run 1 copy of acme, and edit all files in it. many things, such as plumbing, will work better with 1 copy of acme. I agree completely. I would, in general, only run one copy because that is all that would generally be needed. However, there are a couple of circumstances where starting more than one copy does make sense. I detail those two cases in my first post in this thread. by the way, this limitation is p9p specific. but still it's no fun to have the same file get plumbed to every acme. As you can tell by all my posts. All of this is new to me, and I am tring to understand it all. I like what I see so far, and, in fact, I have some ideas that are germinating in my mind. I am planning a future post about it. Focusing on sam acme, I don't yet understand the plumber except in the most vague respect. Specifically what one can do with the plumber on p9p is unknown to me. On a semi-different note, I understand the great advancement Plan-9 brings to the table with respect to making all operations part of the file system. On the flip side, I do not understand the benefit p9p brings to the table with bind and friends. It is too much of a tack-on IMO. I deeply appreciate native sam acme, and would appreciate an even more native port of same. And, not to dispriage the true benefits of Plan-9, I would love to see a POSIX implementation of those ideas. (A topic of a future post.) Thanks. Blake - erik
Re: [9fans] Acme: spaces in file names
I would greatly appreciate it if you could give me the specifics on this. Thanks! Blake On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 10:26 AM, Friedrich Psiorz f.psi...@gmx.de wrote: To use the plumber, you have to start it first. Then you can configure all the Button-3 behavior you want. No need to change the hard coded backup behavior. Am 15.12.2013 17:19, schrieb Blake McBride: Blake-Mac-17:tmp blake$ 9p read plumb/rules 9p: mount: dial unix!/tmp/ns.blake._tmp_launch-nvfpC3_org.x:0/plumb: connect /tmp/ns.blake._tmp_launch-nvfpC3_org.x:0/plumb: No such file I don't have to do this when I search for text with spaces, or to execute a command with spaces. Not being able to load files or directories with spaces is, and I mean this in the most respectfull way, short sighted and inconsistent IMO. As long as a fix doesn't limit some existing functionality, I think it should be corrected. I am qualified to make such a correction but, not being familiar with the code, I estimate it would take me a whole day to do. I'd bet it would take someone famaliar with the code an hour. My time, like all of yours, is very limited. I will make the change when my time permits. My hope is that someone more familiar with the code can make it before then. Thanks. Blake
Re: [9fans] Can't start multiple copies of acme
On a semi-different note, I understand the great advancement Plan-9 brings to the table with respect to making all operations part of the file system. On the flip side, I do not understand the benefit p9p brings to the table with bind and friends. It is too much of a tack-on IMO. I deeply appreciate native sam acme, and would appreciate an even more native port of same. And, not to dispriage the true benefits of Plan-9, I would love to see a POSIX implementation of those ideas. (A topic of a future post.) A topic of loads of past posts. Look up the glendix project. It's really hard to bolt this stuff on a posix system and I don't really see the point anymore. Use Plan 9 for the stuff you need it for and use some POSX system for online poker or whatever it is we need modern browsers for.
[9fans] Ideas from Plan-9
On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 5:55 AM, trebol trebol55...@aol.com wrote: . The lack of a web browser capable of deal with today's madness and the portability limitation of ape (at least for a ignorant like me) forcesme to deal with other OS I have to install and maintaining, so the simplicity and cleanness I like so much of plan9 become useless. Thanks to Russ Cox for P9P! This is a great segue into a point I was hoping to make. I read Rob Pike's comments at: http://rob.pike.usesthis.com/ and it really got me thinking. What a great idea he talked about! I think this may be at the heart of the Plan-9 idea. Mind-share and markets rarely move with sense or logic. The better approach rarely wins. It is more a matter of critical mass of mind-share. Linux, for a lot of really good reasons, has that mind-share (in the technical arena). (Of course Windows has much more mind-share do largely to the fact that most users are non-technical and don't understand the difference - not to mention Microsoft's bullying of the market...) I think Plan-9 suffered from two big issues. The first was lack of mind-share (crowd acceptance). It is very hard to compete with Windows Linux. The second was lack of support for a huge need - a fully functional browser. In spite of some really great ideas, I think we'd all agree that Plan-9 has no real future. On the other hand, I believe that some of the best ideas Plan-9 brings us can and should be a part of the future. I think the best, most practical way to bring those ideas to wide-spread use and availability is to implement those ideas in the Linux kernel. I understand that, since Linux is not Plan-9, there would be compromises and limitations, but it would be a huge step in the right direction. Plan-9 proved those ideas in an ideal environment. Just like what Smalltalk did to the world - creating C++, Java, the mouse, etc., Plan-9 can bring its ideas to the mainstream through additions and improvements to existing technology like Linux. Just some thoughts. Blake McBride
Re: [9fans] Can't start multiple copies of acme
As I am sure you would agree, a lot of real, interesting, important, and valuable work gets done on POSIX systems. I'm sure we'd all agree that Plan-9 adds important ideas to those already present in POSIX. While some of the implementation specifics of Plan-9 may be hard to bold onto a POSIX system, I believe most of the ideas, in the abstract, can be added to a POSIX system, in, perhaps, a different form. Blake On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 10:44 AM, Bence Fábián beg...@gmail.com wrote: On a semi-different note, I understand the great advancement Plan-9 brings to the table with respect to making all operations part of the file system. On the flip side, I do not understand the benefit p9p brings to the table with bind and friends. It is too much of a tack-on IMO. I deeply appreciate native sam acme, and would appreciate an even more native port of same. And, not to dispriage the true benefits of Plan-9, I would love to see a POSIX implementation of those ideas. (A topic of a future post.) A topic of loads of past posts. Look up the glendix project. It's really hard to bolt this stuff on a posix system and I don't really see the point anymore. Use Plan 9 for the stuff you need it for and use some POSX system for online poker or whatever it is we need modern browsers for.
Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9
If bringing Plan 9 to the masses will bring forth stuff like C++ and Java, I will fight against it till my dying breath. Jokes aside. People don't want to use computers. People want to use apps. Noone will like Plan 9. Where you have to read manuals. They hate that. If you like Plan 9, and there's a usecase for it, use it. And write device drivers. That is much more helpful than trying to convince LKML folks that they need userlevel namespaces. People already tried this. 2013/12/15 Blake McBride bl...@mcbride.name On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 5:55 AM, trebol trebol55...@aol.com wrote: . The lack of a web browser capable of deal with today's madness and the portability limitation of ape (at least for a ignorant like me) forcesme to deal with other OS I have to install and maintaining, so the simplicity and cleanness I like so much of plan9 become useless. Thanks to Russ Cox for P9P! This is a great segue into a point I was hoping to make. I read Rob Pike's comments at: http://rob.pike.usesthis.com/ and it really got me thinking. What a great idea he talked about! I think this may be at the heart of the Plan-9 idea. Mind-share and markets rarely move with sense or logic. The better approach rarely wins. It is more a matter of critical mass of mind-share. Linux, for a lot of really good reasons, has that mind-share (in the technical arena). (Of course Windows has much more mind-share do largely to the fact that most users are non-technical and don't understand the difference - not to mention Microsoft's bullying of the market...) I think Plan-9 suffered from two big issues. The first was lack of mind-share (crowd acceptance). It is very hard to compete with Windows Linux. The second was lack of support for a huge need - a fully functional browser. In spite of some really great ideas, I think we'd all agree that Plan-9 has no real future. On the other hand, I believe that some of the best ideas Plan-9 brings us can and should be a part of the future. I think the best, most practical way to bring those ideas to wide-spread use and availability is to implement those ideas in the Linux kernel. I understand that, since Linux is not Plan-9, there would be compromises and limitations, but it would be a huge step in the right direction. Plan-9 proved those ideas in an ideal environment. Just like what Smalltalk did to the world - creating C++, Java, the mouse, etc., Plan-9 can bring its ideas to the mainstream through additions and improvements to existing technology like Linux. Just some thoughts. Blake McBride
Re: [9fans] Acme: spaces in file names
To run the plumber, type plumber then you can copy the rules file to $HOME/lib/plumbing and modify it as you wish. The next time you start the plumber (or when you write the modified file back via 9p), it will load that config file and hopefully behave as you planned. Okay, now what's the plumber? There are two kinds of Buttor-3 actions in acme: 1) if you use button 3 on things like file names, addresses, etc. it does some special action 2) otherwise, search text The plumber (when running) is there to find out, if there is a special action to perform, and then do it. Read the paper Plumbing and other utilities to get more details. ~Fritz Am 15.12.2013 17:38, schrieb Blake McBride: I would greatly appreciate it if you could give me the specifics on this. Thanks! Blake On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 10:26 AM, Friedrich Psiorz f.psi...@gmx.de mailto:f.psi...@gmx.de wrote: To use the plumber, you have to start it first. Then you can configure all the Button-3 behavior you want. No need to change the hard coded backup behavior. Am 15.12.2013 17:19, schrieb Blake McBride: Blake-Mac-17:tmp blake$ 9p read plumb/rules 9p: mount: dial unix!/tmp/ns.blake._tmp_launch-nvfpC3_org.x:0/plumb: connect /tmp/ns.blake._tmp_launch-nvfpC3_org.x:0/plumb: No such file I don't have to do this when I search for text with spaces, or to execute a command with spaces. Not being able to load files or directories with spaces is, and I mean this in the most respectfull way, short sighted and inconsistent IMO. As long as a fix doesn't limit some existing functionality, I think it should be corrected. I am qualified to make such a correction but, not being familiar with the code, I estimate it would take me a whole day to do. I'd bet it would take someone famaliar with the code an hour. My time, like all of yours, is very limited. I will make the change when my time permits. My hope is that someone more familiar with the code can make it before then. Thanks. Blake
Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9
I, respectfully, disagree. The end purpose of any OS, platform, or program is to perform some sort of function. That end function is called an app. An app can be targeted at a programmer or a dumb user. The underlying environment (including tools) determines the available facilities a programmer has in order to construct said app. Unix brings far, far better facilities for the programmer than does Window for the construction and operation of an app. The new ideas embodied in Plan-9 bring considerable enhancements to such an environment. If I am not going to build an app of some sort or another, what is the value of Plan-9? Am I just going to spend all day playing with the cool ideas with no end or purpose in mind? Blake On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 11:18 AM, Bence Fábián beg...@gmail.com wrote: If bringing Plan 9 to the masses will bring forth stuff like C++ and Java, I will fight against it till my dying breath. Jokes aside. People don't want to use computers. People want to use apps. Noone will like Plan 9. Where you have to read manuals. They hate that. If you like Plan 9, and there's a usecase for it, use it. And write device drivers. That is much more helpful than trying to convince LKML folks that they need userlevel namespaces. People already tried this. 2013/12/15 Blake McBride bl...@mcbride.name On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 5:55 AM, trebol trebol55...@aol.com wrote: . The lack of a web browser capable of deal with today's madness and the portability limitation of ape (at least for a ignorant like me) forcesme to deal with other OS I have to install and maintaining, so the simplicity and cleanness I like so much of plan9 become useless. Thanks to Russ Cox for P9P! This is a great segue into a point I was hoping to make. I read Rob Pike's comments at: http://rob.pike.usesthis.com/ and it really got me thinking. What a great idea he talked about! I think this may be at the heart of the Plan-9 idea. Mind-share and markets rarely move with sense or logic. The better approach rarely wins. It is more a matter of critical mass of mind-share. Linux, for a lot of really good reasons, has that mind-share (in the technical arena). (Of course Windows has much more mind-share do largely to the fact that most users are non-technical and don't understand the difference - not to mention Microsoft's bullying of the market...) I think Plan-9 suffered from two big issues. The first was lack of mind-share (crowd acceptance). It is very hard to compete with Windows Linux. The second was lack of support for a huge need - a fully functional browser. In spite of some really great ideas, I think we'd all agree that Plan-9 has no real future. On the other hand, I believe that some of the best ideas Plan-9 brings us can and should be a part of the future. I think the best, most practical way to bring those ideas to wide-spread use and availability is to implement those ideas in the Linux kernel. I understand that, since Linux is not Plan-9, there would be compromises and limitations, but it would be a huge step in the right direction. Plan-9 proved those ideas in an ideal environment. Just like what Smalltalk did to the world - creating C++, Java, the mouse, etc., Plan-9 can bring its ideas to the mainstream through additions and improvements to existing technology like Linux. Just some thoughts. Blake McBride
Re: [9fans] Acme: spaces in file names
Thanks! That is very helpful. On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 11:51 AM, Friedrich Psiorz f.psi...@gmx.de wrote: To run the plumber, type plumber then you can copy the rules file to $HOME/lib/plumbing and modify it as you wish. The next time you start the plumber (or when you write the modified file back via 9p), it will load that config file and hopefully behave as you planned. Okay, now what's the plumber? There are two kinds of Buttor-3 actions in acme: 1) if you use button 3 on things like file names, addresses, etc. it does some special action 2) otherwise, search text The plumber (when running) is there to find out, if there is a special action to perform, and then do it. Read the paper Plumbing and other utilities to get more details. ~Fritz Am 15.12.2013 17:38, schrieb Blake McBride: I would greatly appreciate it if you could give me the specifics on this. Thanks! Blake On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 10:26 AM, Friedrich Psiorz f.psi...@gmx.de mailto:f.psi...@gmx.de wrote: To use the plumber, you have to start it first. Then you can configure all the Button-3 behavior you want. No need to change the hard coded backup behavior. Am 15.12.2013 17:19, schrieb Blake McBride: Blake-Mac-17:tmp blake$ 9p read plumb/rules 9p: mount: dial unix!/tmp/ns.blake._tmp_launch-nvfpC3_org.x:0/plumb: connect /tmp/ns.blake._tmp_launch-nvfpC3_org.x:0/plumb: No such file I don't have to do this when I search for text with spaces, or to execute a command with spaces. Not being able to load files or directories with spaces is, and I mean this in the most respectfull way, short sighted and inconsistent IMO. As long as a fix doesn't limit some existing functionality, I think it should be corrected. I am qualified to make such a correction but, not being familiar with the code, I estimate it would take me a whole day to do. I'd bet it would take someone famaliar with the code an hour. My time, like all of yours, is very limited. I will make the change when my time permits. My hope is that someone more familiar with the code can make it before then. Thanks. Blake
Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9
Bottomline is this: People would never use software like that. The ones who do are already familiar with Plan 9 and weighted pros and cons years ago. 99,9% of the potential users are already on this mailing list and watched this exact same exchange a dozen times. 2013/12/15 Blake McBride bl...@mcbride.name I, respectfully, disagree. The end purpose of any OS, platform, or program is to perform some sort of function. That end function is called an app. An app can be targeted at a programmer or a dumb user. The underlying environment (including tools) determines the available facilities a programmer has in order to construct said app. Unix brings far, far better facilities for the programmer than does Window for the construction and operation of an app. The new ideas embodied in Plan-9 bring considerable enhancements to such an environment. If I am not going to build an app of some sort or another, what is the value of Plan-9? Am I just going to spend all day playing with the cool ideas with no end or purpose in mind? Blake On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 11:18 AM, Bence Fábián beg...@gmail.com wrote: If bringing Plan 9 to the masses will bring forth stuff like C++ and Java, I will fight against it till my dying breath. Jokes aside. People don't want to use computers. People want to use apps. Noone will like Plan 9. Where you have to read manuals. They hate that. If you like Plan 9, and there's a usecase for it, use it. And write device drivers. That is much more helpful than trying to convince LKML folks that they need userlevel namespaces. People already tried this. 2013/12/15 Blake McBride bl...@mcbride.name On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 5:55 AM, trebol trebol55...@aol.com wrote: . The lack of a web browser capable of deal with today's madness and the portability limitation of ape (at least for a ignorant like me) forcesme to deal with other OS I have to install and maintaining, so the simplicity and cleanness I like so much of plan9 become useless. Thanks to Russ Cox for P9P! This is a great segue into a point I was hoping to make. I read Rob Pike's comments at: http://rob.pike.usesthis.com/ and it really got me thinking. What a great idea he talked about! I think this may be at the heart of the Plan-9 idea. Mind-share and markets rarely move with sense or logic. The better approach rarely wins. It is more a matter of critical mass of mind-share. Linux, for a lot of really good reasons, has that mind-share (in the technical arena). (Of course Windows has much more mind-share do largely to the fact that most users are non-technical and don't understand the difference - not to mention Microsoft's bullying of the market...) I think Plan-9 suffered from two big issues. The first was lack of mind-share (crowd acceptance). It is very hard to compete with Windows Linux. The second was lack of support for a huge need - a fully functional browser. In spite of some really great ideas, I think we'd all agree that Plan-9 has no real future. On the other hand, I believe that some of the best ideas Plan-9 brings us can and should be a part of the future. I think the best, most practical way to bring those ideas to wide-spread use and availability is to implement those ideas in the Linux kernel. I understand that, since Linux is not Plan-9, there would be compromises and limitations, but it would be a huge step in the right direction. Plan-9 proved those ideas in an ideal environment. Just like what Smalltalk did to the world - creating C++, Java, the mouse, etc., Plan-9 can bring its ideas to the mainstream through additions and improvements to existing technology like Linux. Just some thoughts. Blake McBride
Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9
Couldn't agree more. On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 2:57 AM, Keith orangecal...@gmail.com wrote: Who here remembers/knows of the vision for the apple newton? The iPad realized it when the technology was able and the time was right. Who is to say the same couldn't be said for 9?
Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9
On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 11:05:53AM -0600, Blake McBride wrote: In spite of some really great ideas, I think we'd all agree that Plan-9 has no real future. On the other hand, I believe that some of the best ideas Plan-9 brings us can and should be a part of the future. I think the best, most practical way to bring those ideas to wide-spread use and availability is to implement those ideas in the Linux kernel. I understand that, since Hm. The most progressive ideas in plan9 kernel. So, replacing plan9 kernel with linux kernel, you will get something strange and not very useful at all.
Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9
All of this talk sound like someone saying: imagine the hurdles of sending a man to the moon. how can man fly when his weight to strength ratio is so poor The only limit is ones imagination and creativity. Blake On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 12:59 PM, Oleg lego12...@yandex.ru wrote: On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 11:05:53AM -0600, Blake McBride wrote: In spite of some really great ideas, I think we'd all agree that Plan-9 has no real future. On the other hand, I believe that some of the best ideas Plan-9 brings us can and should be a part of the future. I think the best, most practical way to bring those ideas to wide-spread use and availability is to implement those ideas in the Linux kernel. I understand that, since Hm. The most progressive ideas in plan9 kernel. So, replacing plan9 kernel with linux kernel, you will get something strange and not very useful at all.
Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9
I have no desire to develope c++ code on plan9 but if there was a simple way to cross compile c++ applications for plan9 that would be great - firefox being the obvious one. This has been done to death, and the closest we ever came to it (IMHO) was cinap's linuxemu - this allowed you to run the linux firefox, or even opera on plan9. I required the use of fgb's x11 port as a display engine, and so it is perhaps not the most minimal solution however it works. -Steve
[9fans] Acme: tab size
Greetings, I noticed tab size on sam is 8 characters. This is somewhat standard. Acme uses 4 (which is perhaps more reasonable in many circumstances). How can one control the tab size on acme? Thanks. Blake McBride
Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9
Linux, android, Windows, and iOS all reached a critical mass in terms of programmer and end-user apps in order to survive. Plan-9 did not. A quality web browser on Plan-9 is critical to its usefullness by many. But this is just one major piece among many. On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 1:18 PM, Steve Simon st...@quintile.net wrote: I have no desire to develope c++ code on plan9 but if there was a simple way to cross compile c++ applications for plan9 that would be great - firefox being the obvious one. This has been done to death, and the closest we ever came to it (IMHO) was cinap's linuxemu - this allowed you to run the linux firefox, or even opera on plan9. I required the use of fgb's x11 port as a display engine, and so it is perhaps not the most minimal solution however it works. -Steve
Re: [9fans] Acme: tab size
set the tabstop environment var in your $home/lib/profile e.g. tabstop=8 -Steve
Re: [9fans] Acme: tab size
The acme manpage tells me: Set the $tabstop environment variable. Am 15.12.2013 20:23, schrieb Blake McBride: Greetings, I noticed tab size on sam is 8 characters. This is somewhat standard. Acme uses 4 (which is perhaps more reasonable in many circumstances). How can one control the tab size on acme? Thanks. Blake McBride
Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9
But this is just one major piece among many. Perhaps for you but not for me, the only thing is really missi s a browser. Very occasuinally I need to edit word documents but this is rare enough that I don't really care. -Steve
Re: [9fans] Acme: spaces in file names
with the plumber running, issuing B /anyfile will open the file in acme, even if acme isn't running. this is very useful when you start scripting little tools. i think this covers everything about acme :)
Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9
major piece among many can be more precisely stated as many pieces among many in order for the platform to achieve a critical mass of users. On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 1:31 PM, Steve Simon st...@quintile.net wrote: But this is just one major piece among many. Perhaps for you but not for me, the only thing is really missi s a browser. Very occasuinally I need to edit word documents but this is rare enough that I don't really care. -Steve
Re: [9fans] Acme: tab size
There's also a Tab command in acme which sets it for the actual window. Like 'Tab 8'. Please read the documentation and the source before asking here. (exectab[] has the commands in exec.c) 2013/12/15 Friedrich Psiorz f.psi...@gmx.de The acme manpage tells me: Set the $tabstop environment variable. Am 15.12.2013 20:23, schrieb Blake McBride: Greetings, I noticed tab size on sam is 8 characters. This is somewhat standard. Acme uses 4 (which is perhaps more reasonable in many circumstances). How can one control the tab size on acme? Thanks. Blake McBride
Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9
On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 01:13:38PM -0600, Blake McBride wrote: All of this talk sound like someone saying: imagine the hurdles of sending a man to the moon. how can man fly when his weight to strength ratio is so poor No. This sounds like: why do much of useless work? To not lose plan9 benefits, we better will grow (or porting) many of useful and non-existent now software. Linux already has many good things, like a namespaces, sysfs and normal procfs (comparing to bsd). May be in the feature it will eliminate ioctl() and other ugly syscalls and introduce /dev/ttyctl + /dev/tty instead of this. But when will this happen? We have it all now in plan9.
Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9
I, respectfully, disagree. The end purpose of any OS, platform, or program is to perform some sort of function. That end function is called an app. the distinction between the os an application is illusionary. redefineing terms a little bit doesn't clear anything up. what an os allows one to accomplish may also be meta. trying new ideas out is certanly useful even if it doesn't result in something useful. An app can be targeted at a programmer or a dumb user. The underlying environment (including tools) determines the available facilities a programmer has in order to construct said app. Unix brings far, far better facilities for the programmer than does Window for the construction and operation of an app. [citation needed] If I am not going to build an app of some sort or another, what is the value of Plan-9? Am I just going to spend all day playing with the cool ideas with no end or purpose in mind? your caricature is actually a pretty good use for plan 9. there's nothing illegitimate about research. but not knowing what you're doing doesn't mean fooling around all day. but more directly to the point, plan 9 is a excellent platform for building products. i've been involved in building a number of plan 9 products, and imho the work would have been much harder with the other oses i'm familiar with. - erik
Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9
Linux already has many good things, like a namespaces, Have you tried using *CLONE_NEWNS* in Linux? I did. It's a joke. You need to have *CAP_SYS_ADMIN.* And you need to hack back Constants what has since have been missing from headers. You need to allocate your stack. Backwards! It's not even funny as a joke to claim that works. It is certeainly not easier than swiping out a new window. 2013/12/15 Oleg lego12...@yandex.ru On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 01:13:38PM -0600, Blake McBride wrote: All of this talk sound like someone saying: imagine the hurdles of sending a man to the moon. how can man fly when his weight to strength ratio is so poor No. This sounds like: why do much of useless work? To not lose plan9 benefits, we better will grow (or porting) many of useful and non-existent now software. Linux already has many good things, like a namespaces, sysfs and normal procfs (comparing to bsd). May be in the feature it will eliminate ioctl() and other ugly syscalls and introduce /dev/ttyctl + /dev/tty instead of this. But when will this happen? We have it all now in plan9.
Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9
Quoting Blake McBride bl...@mcbride.name: All of this talk sound like someone saying: imagine the hurdles of sending a man to the moon. how can man fly when his weight to strength ratio is so poor The only limit is ones imagination and creativity. Blake No. Lack of training, an inability to learn from documentation, and an unwarranted overestimation of personal ability are all much more immediate limits. Imagination and creativity rarely enhance computing. khm
Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9
On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 09:43:27PM +0100, Bence F??bi??n wrote: Linux already has many good things, like a namespaces, Have you tried using *CLONE_NEWNS* in Linux? I did. It's a joke. I didn't say that this things are implemented well :-). I just say that linux has good things in direction of plan9, but it's not plan9. And this is a thankless job to make plan9 kernel from linux kernel.
Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9
Ok. Make wonders, then demo them next year on iwp9. 2013/12/15 Oleg lego12...@yandex.ru On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 09:43:27PM +0100, Bence F??bi??n wrote: Linux already has many good things, like a namespaces, Have you tried using *CLONE_NEWNS* in Linux? I did. It's a joke. I didn't say that this things are implemented well :-). I just say that linux has good things in direction of plan9, but it's not plan9. And this is a thankless job to make plan9 kernel from linux kernel.
Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9
...Tell that to the people who are maintaining 9front and 9atom. Oh wait, you just did. My personal opinion: Plan 9 in its forked form will continue to be used and worked for a long time. Hell, there are people still using Amigas for serious computing! I too many times thinking about bringing Plan 9 ideas to Linux or UNIX systems, with the conclusion that the design principals are just too different. You have parts of Plan 9 making it over to the other side, but Linux or BSD will never be a Plan 9-like operating system- forever UNIX. Regards, Lee On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 4:17 PM, Blake McBride bl...@mcbride.name wrote: This whole discussion has devolved into a political left vs. right like debate. Suffice it to say that without a critical mass of users, Bell Labs and/or Alcatel-Lucent will drop it, it will experience insufficient support from the user base at large, and it will suffer bit-rot until it won't boot anywhere anymore. Here is an exercise for fun too. Create your own written language, and write a bunch of books in it. Have fun. Blake On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 2:17 PM, erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.net wrote: major piece among many can be more precisely stated as many pieces among many in order for the platform to achieve a critical mass of users. the metaphor critical mass is really tiresome one. it does not apply to operating systems. if one person finds the os useful, then that's enough. i'm not entirely clear how this metaphor is supposed to be interpreted, but perhaps the idea is that with lots of users, lots of software gets written and clearly more is better. or maybe not. plan 9 is a research system. for me that means we use it as it makes doing new and interesting things, or the same thing in an interesting way easy. so having piles of ported software is at best a distraction. - erik
Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9
Quoting Blake McBride bl...@mcbride.name: This whole discussion has devolved into a political left vs. right like debate. Suffice it to say that without a critical mass of users, Bell Labs and/or Alcatel-Lucent will drop it, it will experience insufficient support from the user base at large, and it will suffer bit-rot until it won't boot anywhere anymore. you're a very silly person and you don't know anything at all
Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9
On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 3:25 PM, Lee Fallat ircsurfe...@gmail.com wrote: ...Tell that to the people who are maintaining 9front and 9atom. I wasn't aware of those two. Thanks!
Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9
On 12/15/2013 4:17 PM, Blake McBride wrote: This whole discussion has devolved into a political left vs. right like debate. Suffice it to say that without a critical mass of users, Bell Labs and/or Alcatel-Lucent will drop it, it will experience insufficient support from the user base at large, and it will suffer bit-rot until it won't boot anywhere anymore. No. We forked it. If you could google better maybe you would know this. Here is an exercise for fun too. Create your own written language, and write a bunch of books in it. Have fun. Fuck you. I have better shit to do like make vt(1) work with OpenVMS. Blake -- Veety
[9fans] 9front vs. 9atom
I now see there are, at least, a couple of forks of Plan-9 with the goal of keeping off bit rot and making bug fixes and enhancements. Since I've had a lot of trouble attempting to boot Plan-9 on a laptop, VMWare Fusion, and a Linux VM Server, I thought I'd try the forks. (Actually, Plan-9 installed everywhere I tried but the graphics stuff didn't work.) I briefly looked at 9front and 9atom. I thought I would query this group about the two. Is one better maintained than the other? Does one have better hardware support than the other? Thanks for the help. Blake McBride
Re: [9fans] 9front vs. 9atom
Quoting Blake McBride bl...@mcbride.name: Is one better maintained than the other? Yes. Does one have better hardware support than the other? Yes. khm
Re: [9fans] 9front vs. 9atom
Quoting Kurt... Is one better maintained than the other? Yes. 9atom. Does one have better hardware support than the other? Yes. 9front. khm tristan -- All original matter is hereby placed immediately under the public domain.
Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9
Suffice it to say that without a critical mass of users, Bell Labs and/or Alcatel-Lucent will drop it, it will experience insufficient support from the user base at large, and it will suffer bit-rot until it won't boot anywhere anymore. plan 9 is sane enough that one person can maintain it for their own use. given the state of other systems that probably doesn't appear possible. that's probably the most important idea that i've taken from plan 9. software can be sane. and then there's chuck moore. tristan -- All original matter is hereby placed immediately under the public domain.
Re: [9fans] 9front vs. 9atom
Thank you, Tristan. On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 4:53 PM, Tristan 9p...@imu.li wrote: Quoting Kurt... Is one better maintained than the other? Yes. 9atom. Does one have better hardware support than the other? Yes. 9front. khm tristan -- All original matter is hereby placed immediately under the public domain.
Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9
plan 9 is sane enough that one person can maintain it for their own use. given the state of other systems that probably doesn't appear possible. that's probably the most important idea that i've taken from plan 9. +1. - erik
[9fans] file server uptime
i believe this is a personal record for any system at any time: plano: version 63-bit plano as of Thu Jan 6 13:20:07 EDT 2011 last boot Fri Jan 21 14:57:19 EDT 2011 - erik
Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9
On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 3:23 PM, Bence Fábián beg...@gmail.com wrote: This whole discussion has devolved into all the exact same discussions when someone comes to save us from ourselves. If you are too lazy to look into the archives at least read this: http://jfloren.net/b/2012/4/27/0 Yes, that surely fits me at this point. Sorry. I'll try to heed the advice. BTW, I downloaded 9front and it installed on VMware without a problem. Not surprisingly, I'm pretty lost. Looking around, there is a lot of information around the net. The problem is that some of it is out of date. I'll try to keep the questions to a minimum. I appreciate the help. Blake
Re: [9fans] 9front vs. 9atom
I briefly looked at 9front and 9atom. I thought I would query this group about the two. Is one better maintained than the other? Does one have better hardware support than the other? i'd appreciate some feedback on the usb install process if you get a chance. http://ftp.9atom.org/other/usbinstamd64.bz2 it can be used as a live environment as well, though it's inconvienent for that, as only the minimum set of executables are included. this was done to keep the image size down to a minimum. - erik ps. 9atom.org will be down from 21:00 pm EST 15 dec to 03:00 am EST 16 dec (02:00am - 07:00am GMT) for network maintence.
Re: [9fans] 9front vs. 9atom
Will do. On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 6:37 PM, erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.netwrote: I briefly looked at 9front and 9atom. I thought I would query this group about the two. Is one better maintained than the other? Does one have better hardware support than the other? i'd appreciate some feedback on the usb install process if you get a chance. http://ftp.9atom.org/other/usbinstamd64.bz2 it can be used as a live environment as well, though it's inconvienent for that, as only the minimum set of executables are included. this was done to keep the image size down to a minimum. - erik ps. 9atom.org will be down from 21:00 pm EST 15 dec to 03:00 am EST 16 dec (02:00am - 07:00am GMT) for network maintence.
[9fans] Compiling C under 9front
Greetings, I've got 9front running but I am having trouble compiling a hello.c program. term% 6c hello.c term% 6l hello.6 ??none??: cannot open file: /amd64/lib/libc.a I already looked in google, the email list, and FAQ's that I could find. Your help is appreciated. Blake McBride
Re: [9fans] Compiling C under 9front
On Sun Dec 15 20:31:47 EST 2013, bl...@mcbride.name wrote: Greetings, I've got 9front running but I am having trouble compiling a hello.c program. term% 6c hello.c term% 6l hello.6 ??none??: cannot open file: /amd64/lib/libc.a I already looked in google, the email list, and FAQ's that I could find. Your help is appreciated. cd /sys/src; objtype=amd64 mk libs - erik
Re: [9fans] Compiling C under 9front
On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 7:33 PM, erik quanstrom quans...@labs.coraid.comwrote: On Sun Dec 15 20:31:47 EST 2013, bl...@mcbride.name wrote: Greetings, I've got 9front running but I am having trouble compiling a hello.c program. term% 6c hello.c term% 6l hello.6 ??none??: cannot open file: /amd64/lib/libc.a I already looked in google, the email list, and FAQ's that I could find. Your help is appreciated. cd /sys/src; objtype=amd64 mk libs - erik Thanks! It went through a bunch of compiles and library adds successfullybut ended in: ... a - utfutf.6 a - u16.6 a - u32.6 a - u64.6 amd64 Can't cd amd64: 'amd64' directory not found mk: for(i in 9sys ... : exit status=rc 1544: rc 2737: can't cd mk: date for (i ... : exit status=rc 1058: rc 1477: mk 1543: error term%
Re: [9fans] Compiling C under 9front
Thanks! It went through a bunch of compiles and library adds successfullybut ended in: ... a - utfutf.6 a - u16.6 a - u32.6 a - u64.6 amd64 Can't cd amd64: 'amd64' directory not found mk: for(i in 9sys ... : exit status=rc 1544: rc 2737: can't cd mk: date for (i ... : exit status=rc 1058: rc 1477: mk 1543: error if you want amd64, you'll have to use 9atom. - erik
[9fans] 9front pegs CPU on VMware
Greetings, I am running 9plan on VMware Fusion successfully, however, the CPU is pegged. I've seen this before with DOS. Basically the OS has its own idle loop so VMware sees it as always using CPU. There is a patch to fix this issue with a DOS guest. Any ideas with 9front? Thanks. Blake McBride
Re: [9fans] 9front pegs CPU on VMware
I am running 9plan on VMware Fusion successfully, however, the CPU is pegged. I've seen this before with DOS. Basically the OS has its own idle loop so VMware sees it as always using CPU. There is a patch to fix this issue with a DOS guest. Any ideas with 9front? change idlehands in /sys/src/9/pc to call halt unconditionally instead of whatever it's doing now. - erik
Re: [9fans] Compiling C under 9front
Use 8c. Amd64 isn't supported yet. On Dec 15, 2013, at 20:31, Blake McBride bl...@mcbride.name wrote: Greetings, I've got 9front running but I am having trouble compiling a hello.c program. term% 6c hello.c term% 6l hello.6 ??none??: cannot open file: /amd64/lib/libc.a I already looked in google, the email list, and FAQ's that I could find. Your help is appreciated. Blake McBride
Re: [9fans] 9front pegs CPU on VMware
welcome to the club. now do the same thing with linux. and try to regale your experience in less than 4 blogposts :)
Re: [9fans] 9front pegs CPU on VMware
Good point. I can't. On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 8:58 PM, andrey mirtchovski mirtchov...@gmail.comwrote: welcome to the club. now do the same thing with linux. and try to regale your experience in less than 4 blogposts :)
Re: [9fans] file server uptime
On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 5:27 PM, erik quanstrom quans...@labs.coraid.com wrote: i believe this is a personal record for any system at any time: plano: version 63-bit plano as of Thu Jan 6 13:20:07 EDT 2011 last boot Fri Jan 21 14:57:19 EDT 2011 Pish. Plano is barely used!
Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9
On 24/10/2013, at 5:57 PM, Keith wrote: Who here remembers/knows of the vision for the apple newton? The iPad realized it when the technology was able and the time was right. Who is to say the same couldn't be said for 9? I suspect that Plan9ers will be as disappointed as Newtonians at the debased concepts embodied in their successful offspring. d signature.asc Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail
Re: [9fans] Compiling C under 9front
On Sun Dec 15 21:05:43 EST 2013, mve...@gmail.com wrote: Use 8c. Amd64 isn't supported yet. On Dec 15, 2013, at 20:31, Blake McBride bl...@mcbride.name wrote: Greetings, I've got 9front running but I am having trouble compiling a hello.c program. term% 6c hello.c term% 6l hello.6 ??none??: cannot open file: /amd64/lib/libc.a I already looked in google, the email list, and FAQ's that I could find. Your help is appreciated. to be more specific, amd64 is supported on 9atom. in fact, it's used almost exclusively. you'll have to check with anybody else for their support. - erik
