Re: [9fans] Fwd: ubiquitous environment?

[cigar562hfsp952fans]

Rudolf Sykora  writes:

> environment. I want to be working on my home desktop, realize what
> time it is, run out the door to catch my train, open my laptop on the
> train, continue right where I left off, close the laptop, hop off the
> train, sit down at work, and have all my state sitting there on the
> monitor on my desk, all without even thinking about it.

It sounds like you want to check out Nemo's work, over at LSUB, on the
Octopus, Olive, Omero, and Plan B:

http://lsub.org/export/oman.pdf
http://lsub.org/export/otut.pdf
http://lsub.org/ls/export/octopus.pdf
http://lsub.org/ls/export/omero.pdf
http://lsub.org/ls/export/uidemo.pdf
http://lsub.org/who/nemo

etc.

They seem to WRITE a lot about and demo their ideas, but I've never been
able to find anything from them that's actually usable.  (If anyone can
find actual code/documentation, please post so the rest of us can
benefit from it.  Thanks!)

Re: [9fans] Fwd: ubiquitous environment?

[Skip Tavakkolian]

Microtik RB450G port was done by Geoff and was in the main Labs report.

All the info needed for a Vocore2 port are in the open; my effort has been
limited to "thoughts and prayers".

On Mar 3, 2018 3:44 PM, "hiro" <23h...@gmail.com> wrote:

> A Microtik RB tftp/bootp
> loads a cpu kernel; it is the token MIPS machine (maybe VCore2 is
supported
> some day).

This sounds really interesting, did you mention this before and are
there more details somewhere?

Re: [9fans] Fwd: ubiquitous environment?

[hiro]

also, i'd like to use 9p instead of cifsd on the 9front server to
reach those files from the windows environment (what the file explorer
and non-drawterm programs see :)).

Re: [9fans] Fwd: ubiquitous environment?

[hiro]

it just keeps on breaking. it does reconnect after you press cancel or
ok (i don't remember), but it always keeps a while and when you have
files open or transfers happening you have to start again when
everything below breaks.

On 3/4/18, Steve Simon  wrote:
> i see.
>
> i would have thought/hoped that windows would remake the cifs session when
> windows comes out if standby, using cached credentials, so  other than being
> a bit slow to start,  cifs to the plan9 server should come back.
>
> i guess i am missing something.
>
> -Steve
>
>
> On 3 Mar 2018, at 23:32, hiro <23h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> also, i would have thought you could build a windows drawterm which also
>>> included the code from exportfs so you could use 9fs and aan to get at
>>> the
>>> files on your windows box.
>>
>> we don't use exportfs for this any more, but yes, i already use the
>> equivalent feature for this direction.
>> i want to also be able to use the windows file explorer to access the
>> 9front server through drawterm somehow (opposite direction), because
>> then the cifs mount doesn't get killed by window's inability to keep
>> the network connections running. 127.0.0.1 (drawterm) should always
>> stay up, and drawterm would take care of the rest :)
>
>
>

Re: [9fans] Fwd: ubiquitous environment?

[Steve Simon]

i see.

i would have thought/hoped that windows would remake the cifs session when 
windows comes out if standby, using cached credentials, so  other than being a 
bit slow to start,  cifs to the plan9 server should come back.

i guess i am missing something.

-Steve


On 3 Mar 2018, at 23:32, hiro <23h...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> also, i would have thought you could build a windows drawterm which also
>> included the code from exportfs so you could use 9fs and aan to get at the
>> files on your windows box.
> 
> we don't use exportfs for this any more, but yes, i already use the
> equivalent feature for this direction.
> i want to also be able to use the windows file explorer to access the
> 9front server through drawterm somehow (opposite direction), because
> then the cifs mount doesn't get killed by window's inability to keep
> the network connections running. 127.0.0.1 (drawterm) should always
> stay up, and drawterm would take care of the rest :)

Re: [9fans] Fwd: ubiquitous environment?

[hiro]

> A Microtik RB tftp/bootp
> loads a cpu kernel; it is the token MIPS machine (maybe VCore2 is supported
> some day).

This sounds really interesting, did you mention this before and are
there more details somewhere?

Re: [9fans] Fwd: ubiquitous environment?

[hiro]

octopus concepts were a real showoff, though so far i only managed to
use Op a lot, to mount mechiel's ircfs and display it in wm/irc. it
worked very well.

Re: [9fans] Fwd: ubiquitous environment?

[hiro]

> also, i would have thought you could build a windows drawterm which also
> included the code from exportfs so you could use 9fs and aan to get at the
> files on your windows box.

we don't use exportfs for this any more, but yes, i already use the
equivalent feature for this direction.
i want to also be able to use the windows file explorer to access the
9front server through drawterm somehow (opposite direction), because
then the cifs mount doesn't get killed by window's inability to keep
the network connections running. 127.0.0.1 (drawterm) should always
stay up, and drawterm would take care of the rest :)

Re: [9fans] Fwd: ubiquitous environment?

[Skip Tavakkolian]

You can dump the acme session at will and reload it to restore the session;
that combined with pxeloading a term or using drawterm, you almost don't
have to worry about losing your work or where you are. You can also use P9P
acme and import/fusemount the the Plan 9 fileserver with the same effect.

My home setup is a couple of Intel atom servers; one for Auth/Fileserver
(fossil+venti) and the other is a CPU (with a backup venti).  There are a
couple of RPi3's pxeloading the term kernel.  A Microtik RB tftp/bootp
loads a cpu kernel; it is the token MIPS machine (maybe VCore2 is supported
some day).  There are a couple of dormant (and noisy) x86 rackmount servers
that pxeboot cpu's for when I need a bit more oomph. Linux and MacOS
laptops have P9P and drawterm. I tend to fusemount the filesystem when I'm
using those.


On Sat, Mar 3, 2018 at 8:22 AM, Rudolf Sykora 
wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I am not sure this email ever made it to the forum,
> hence I decided to ask once more...
>
> Thanks for any comments...
>
> -- Forwarded message --
> From: Rudolf Sykora 
> Date: 16 June 2016 at 10:30
> Subject: ubiquitous environment?
> To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net>
>
>
> Hello, everyone,
>
> I read the following some time ago and now got back to it.
> It's from an interview with Russ Cox.
> https://usesthis.com/interviews/russ.cox/
>
> --
> The thing I miss most about Plan 9 was the way that no matter which
> computer you sat down at, you had the same environment. Because we
> were working off a shared file server - there were no local disks on
> the Plan 9 workstations - you could go home and log in and all your
> work was there waiting. Of course, it only worked because we had good,
> fast connectivity to the file server, and only file state - not
> application state - transferred, but it was still a huge win.
>
> Today it's taken for granted that everyone has local files on disk and
> you need programs like Unison or Dropbox (or for the power users,
> Mercurial or Git) to synchronize them, but what we had in Plan 9 was
> completely effortless, and my dream is to return to that kind of
> environment. I want to be working on my home desktop, realize what
> time it is, run out the door to catch my train, open my laptop on the
> train, continue right where I left off, close the laptop, hop off the
> train, sit down at work, and have all my state sitting there on the
> monitor on my desk, all without even thinking about it.
> --
>
> Has anyone tried a setup like that? -- Having a server at work and
> working on it even from home/anywhere? And how is it set up? Does it mean
> that wherever you sit you somehow mount the window system to get
> to the exactly same state that you left the machine in?
> (Ie. something like a screen/tmux but supplied by the system itself?)
>
> Thanks for any comments!
>
> Ruda
>
>

Re: [9fans] Fwd: ubiquitous environment?

[Kurt H Maier]

On Sat, Mar 03, 2018 at 07:13:57PM +, Steve Simon wrote:
> 
> personally i think this idea will become more and more important as we get 
> fiber to the home, local storage will become a thing of the past. 

I remember hearing this sentiment with '9600 baud modems' standing in
for 'fiber to the home.'  

If anything kills local storage, it will be vendor lock within the
android and ios worlds.  Banking on change being caused by *improved*
infrastructure is hanging your jacket on a shaky nail.

khm

Re: [9fans] Fwd: ubiquitous environment?

[Francisco J Ballesteros]

Octopus would run on Plan 9, although we used inferno for (hosted) terminals, 
and it used Op as the protocol (a descendant of 9p like everyone else),
Plan B was more a modified Plan 9 system with name spaces replaced and the 
early ideas of the Octopus window system implemented.

No need to apologize, I'm glad you remember the system :-)
Thanks for your comment about it.

> On 3 Mar 2018, at 20:23, Steve Simon  wrote:
> 
> My appologies for misreprisenting your system.
> 
> Would octopus run on plan9 or was the planB boxes or the
> streamlined filesystem api intrinsic to tos implmenetation?
> 
> -Steve
> 

Re: [9fans] Fwd: ubiquitous environment?

[Steve Simon]

My appologies for misreprisenting your system.

Would octopus run on plan9 or was the planB boxes or the
streamlined filesystem api intrinsic to tos implmenetation?

-Steve

Re: [9fans] Fwd: ubiquitous environment?

[Francisco J Ballesteros]

In octopus you didn't have to "save" the state. The window system was kept 
running at a server, including the layout you were using.
It was nice, and I miss it. II'll have to do something about it when I get some 
time.


> On 3 Mar 2018, at 20:13, Steve Simon  wrote:
> 
> i am pretty sure nemo’s octopus window system in planB had a way to save and 
> restore its state so you could migrate your sessions from one terminal to 
> another.
> 
> also, i would have thought you could build a windows drawterm which also 
> included the code from exportfs so you could use 9fs and aan to get at the 
> files on your windows box.
> 
> one bit that rangboom added was to be able to mount a filesystem  on windows 
> from plan9. the windows IFS subsystem id not simple or friendly.
> 
> personally i think this idea will become more and more important as we get 
> fiber to the home, local storage will become a thing of the past. 
> 
> -Steve
> 
> 
>> On 3 Mar 2018, at 17:41, hiro <23h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> I have 9front running on a server at ovh france, my workstation is a
>> windows 7 machine with drawterm in autostart. drawterm itself is run
>> with -p option so that it can make use of AAN, which recovers broken
>> TCP connections e.g. after resuming from sleep in the mornings or
>> during any network state changes (windows frequently resets TCP
>> connections even if it wouldn't be needed).
>> 
>> This way my rio windows always stay open on windows, even though all
>> the windows network shares, vnc sessions, ssh stuff break every time
>> and have to be painstakingly reconnected.
>> If I could make the drawterm files accessible to windows (you rangboom
>> people please step forward), then I could mount the cifs share on
>> 9front, and then mount that on windows via drawterm to have more
>> stable connectivity to my windows shares.
>> I hope the rangboom people will share their technology so we won't
>> have to port cifsd to drawterm instead.
>> 
>> if i am in the train and on my laptop i can log into the same server.
>> i have a little LTE wifi router that maintains a tunnel to france so i
>> can keep on using the same IP when my laptop and phone leave the house
>> (actually AAN wouldn't even be needed for mobility if it wasn't for
>> crappy low NAT timeouts during temporary connection problems and
>> sleep).
>> 
>> Since my laptop is a separate terminal with it's own rio session,
>> sadly the rio windows are not synced. As Russ mentioned though i have
>> access to the same files.
>> You have to be careful with open sam windows in case they have unsaved
>> changes, but the dropbox people have the same merge conflicts. As a
>> windows user I learned to save my files instead. :)
>> 
>> It would be nice to have less local state (i.e. rio windows, devdraw).
>> Multiple approaches could be used quite easily.
>> One of them that is very curious is mycroftiv's ANTS project, which
>> separates the state of rio rc windows from the graphical environment.
>> 
>> acme also has state-saving functionality. it needs to be killed or
>> told to though. in my scenario it wouldn't get killed cause my session
>> survives, and i don't want it to close on one side normally :)
>> 
>> no idea if sam has anything for this, so right now i advocate
>> discipline instead.
> 
> 

Re: [9fans] Fwd: ubiquitous environment?

[Steve Simon]

i am pretty sure nemo’s octopus window system in planB had a way to save and 
restore its state so you could migrate your sessions from one terminal to 
another.

also, i would have thought you could build a windows drawterm which also 
included the code from exportfs so you could use 9fs and aan to get at the 
files on your windows box.

one bit that rangboom added was to be able to mount a filesystem  on windows 
from plan9. the windows IFS subsystem id not simple or friendly.

personally i think this idea will become more and more important as we get 
fiber to the home, local storage will become a thing of the past. 

-Steve


> On 3 Mar 2018, at 17:41, hiro <23h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I have 9front running on a server at ovh france, my workstation is a
> windows 7 machine with drawterm in autostart. drawterm itself is run
> with -p option so that it can make use of AAN, which recovers broken
> TCP connections e.g. after resuming from sleep in the mornings or
> during any network state changes (windows frequently resets TCP
> connections even if it wouldn't be needed).
> 
> This way my rio windows always stay open on windows, even though all
> the windows network shares, vnc sessions, ssh stuff break every time
> and have to be painstakingly reconnected.
> If I could make the drawterm files accessible to windows (you rangboom
> people please step forward), then I could mount the cifs share on
> 9front, and then mount that on windows via drawterm to have more
> stable connectivity to my windows shares.
> I hope the rangboom people will share their technology so we won't
> have to port cifsd to drawterm instead.
> 
> if i am in the train and on my laptop i can log into the same server.
> i have a little LTE wifi router that maintains a tunnel to france so i
> can keep on using the same IP when my laptop and phone leave the house
> (actually AAN wouldn't even be needed for mobility if it wasn't for
> crappy low NAT timeouts during temporary connection problems and
> sleep).
> 
> Since my laptop is a separate terminal with it's own rio session,
> sadly the rio windows are not synced. As Russ mentioned though i have
> access to the same files.
> You have to be careful with open sam windows in case they have unsaved
> changes, but the dropbox people have the same merge conflicts. As a
> windows user I learned to save my files instead. :)
> 
> It would be nice to have less local state (i.e. rio windows, devdraw).
> Multiple approaches could be used quite easily.
> One of them that is very curious is mycroftiv's ANTS project, which
> separates the state of rio rc windows from the graphical environment.
> 
> acme also has state-saving functionality. it needs to be killed or
> told to though. in my scenario it wouldn't get killed cause my session
> survives, and i don't want it to close on one side normally :)
> 
> no idea if sam has anything for this, so right now i advocate
> discipline instead.

Re: [9fans] Fwd: ubiquitous environment?

[hiro]

I have 9front running on a server at ovh france, my workstation is a
windows 7 machine with drawterm in autostart. drawterm itself is run
with -p option so that it can make use of AAN, which recovers broken
TCP connections e.g. after resuming from sleep in the mornings or
during any network state changes (windows frequently resets TCP
connections even if it wouldn't be needed).

This way my rio windows always stay open on windows, even though all
the windows network shares, vnc sessions, ssh stuff break every time
and have to be painstakingly reconnected.
If I could make the drawterm files accessible to windows (you rangboom
people please step forward), then I could mount the cifs share on
9front, and then mount that on windows via drawterm to have more
stable connectivity to my windows shares.
I hope the rangboom people will share their technology so we won't
have to port cifsd to drawterm instead.

if i am in the train and on my laptop i can log into the same server.
i have a little LTE wifi router that maintains a tunnel to france so i
can keep on using the same IP when my laptop and phone leave the house
(actually AAN wouldn't even be needed for mobility if it wasn't for
crappy low NAT timeouts during temporary connection problems and
sleep).

Since my laptop is a separate terminal with it's own rio session,
sadly the rio windows are not synced. As Russ mentioned though i have
access to the same files.
You have to be careful with open sam windows in case they have unsaved
changes, but the dropbox people have the same merge conflicts. As a
windows user I learned to save my files instead. :)

It would be nice to have less local state (i.e. rio windows, devdraw).
Multiple approaches could be used quite easily.
One of them that is very curious is mycroftiv's ANTS project, which
separates the state of rio rc windows from the graphical environment.

acme also has state-saving functionality. it needs to be killed or
told to though. in my scenario it wouldn't get killed cause my session
survives, and i don't want it to close on one side normally :)

no idea if sam has anything for this, so right now i advocate
discipline instead.

[9fans] Fwd: ubiquitous environment?

[Rudolf Sykora]

Hello,

I am not sure this email ever made it to the forum,
hence I decided to ask once more...

Thanks for any comments...

-- Forwarded message --
From: Rudolf Sykora 
Date: 16 June 2016 at 10:30
Subject: ubiquitous environment?
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net>


Hello, everyone,

I read the following some time ago and now got back to it.
It's from an interview with Russ Cox.
https://usesthis.com/interviews/russ.cox/

--
The thing I miss most about Plan 9 was the way that no matter which
computer you sat down at, you had the same environment. Because we
were working off a shared file server - there were no local disks on
the Plan 9 workstations - you could go home and log in and all your
work was there waiting. Of course, it only worked because we had good,
fast connectivity to the file server, and only file state - not
application state - transferred, but it was still a huge win.

Today it's taken for granted that everyone has local files on disk and
you need programs like Unison or Dropbox (or for the power users,
Mercurial or Git) to synchronize them, but what we had in Plan 9 was
completely effortless, and my dream is to return to that kind of
environment. I want to be working on my home desktop, realize what
time it is, run out the door to catch my train, open my laptop on the
train, continue right where I left off, close the laptop, hop off the
train, sit down at work, and have all my state sitting there on the
monitor on my desk, all without even thinking about it.
--

Has anyone tried a setup like that? -- Having a server at work and
working on it even from home/anywhere? And how is it set up? Does it mean
that wherever you sit you somehow mount the window system to get
to the exactly same state that you left the machine in?
(Ie. something like a screen/tmux but supplied by the system itself?)

Thanks for any comments!

Ruda