Re: [9fans] rc vs sh
On Sat, Sep 1, 2012 at 12:24 AM, Kurt H Maier kh...@intma.in wrote: Just for the record, nothing's changed: On Tue, Aug 28, 2012 at 10:44:04PM +0200, Uriel wrote: Where did the Go team say explicitly they are not interested in a better build system? http://goo.gl/AtBrC A lot has changed, the current build system has barely a handful of lines of (ba)sh left in it. Whatever I can convince Russ that it is OK to remove the little that is left will depend on whatever other people make the case or just give up and go away, because they can't be bothered to explain their points to Russ. Really, that of all the people in the world, I'm the one that has to try to fight for consensus, communication and cooperation... maybe the world is really hopeless. *sigh* Uriel
Re: [9fans] rc vs sh
On Tue, Aug 28, 2012 at 5:30 PM, Kurt H Maier kh...@intma.in wrote: On Tue, Aug 28, 2012 at 08:48:39PM +0530, Dan Cross wrote: So are you saying that because they use bash to build the system, the language is shitty? Or just the build system is shitty? I have other issues with Go as a language, but the build system is unmitigated shit. Writing a shell script is easy. Writing a shell script to build a non-trivial piece of software across $n$ different platforms is hard. And yet people do it all the time. Go currently builds out of the box on Linux, FreeBSD, OS X, Windows, and Plan 9 (and probably more places), I don't know many build systems that can do that. The build system was basically replaced by Russ since you last looked at it. The remaining few bash lines are there basically for historical reasons, because Russ (or anyone else) could not be bothered to replace them with Go or C code which is what is used in the rest of the build system. Which again, makes this whole thread even more ridiculous, as in the time you people have spent whining about it you could have removed the last remaining lines of bash from the Go build system. But guess what? Nobody really cares. This whole argument has turned into a typical bike shed, everyone has an opinion because it is such a trivial matter that anyone can easily argue about it for hours. To put it another way, why not cut the cord? Because it takes time away from doing something they consider more important. Incorrect. There's a whole world of people out there; some of them would be willing to build and maintain an elegant, portable shell script. That's the point of having an open development process, I thought. I understand the need for the core devs to focus on the task at hand: language building. It is idiotic not to delegate the build system to someone willing and able to devote the time to it. Nobody has volunteered to do it, so to blame Russ for actually solving a problem nobody else has bothered to work on is very unfair. More generally, if your impression of Go as a language (Typical go shit...) is based on what shell they chose for the build script, then I'm not sure you have your priorities straight. Fortunately, your assessment of my priorities is meaningless. Typical Go shit referred to the ceaseless lack of focus on quality endemic to a schizophrenic community that was organized around a language without a mission. Go is still evolving in two separate directions; one camp sees it as yet another language for web shit, and one camp sees it as a real programming language for actual programs. I long ago lost interest in seeing who will eventually win, but in the meantime every bad decision seems to have some chorus of supporters who take every piece of criticism personally. *Those* are the people who need to examine their priorities. Go is not still evolving, Go 1 was released a while ago, and there are absolutely no plans to change the language for the foreseeable future. Whatever it is used for web shit or real programs doesn't change the language in any way. And if you think ken can be persuaded to change the language based on what people building web shit wants, then you really don't know ken much.
Re: [9fans] rc vs sh
On Tue, Aug 28, 2012 at 5:35 PM, Kurt H Maier kh...@intma.in wrote: On Tue, Aug 28, 2012 at 05:36:58PM +0200, Lucio De Re wrote: Sure, feel free to make something that isn't shitty, there's plenty out there that can be improved. The machinery to install Go (from sources) is hardly the most important amongst them. The Go team has already explicitly stated they are note interested in a better build system. I don't know if it's plain NIH or a secret bash fetish, but they're not buying. Improving software is not a zero-sum game; Go development is not a closed system. The build system can be improved without impeding other progress. Where did the Go team say explicitly they are not interested in a better build system? They just said they are not interested in replacing the last very few remaining bits of bash unless there is certainty that it wont break the build in some system. The current build system already provides facilities to do this, just nobody has bothered to replace the last remaining bits of (ba)sh. Solution: replace the #!/bin/sh with #!/usr/bin/env -c /bin/bash. Why not? Because there are plenty of systems out there without env or bash. I may misremember, but before the Go tool was released, the Plan 9 release managed to get itself compiled using ape/sh. As far as I can tell, the dependence isn't in Bash features as much as in the consistency across Bash versions. ...which is another unproved assumption. What is the unproven assumption? One of the Go devs already pointed out that the current shell scripts don't work for (who knows what reason) FreeBSD's default shell, even when they make no use of any bash-specific features as far as anyone knows.
Re: [9fans] 8c and elf shared libraries
On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 6:51 AM, Ethan Grammatikidis eeke...@fastmail.fm wrote: On Wed, 11 Jul 2012 17:15:26 +0100 Steve Simon st...@quintile.net wrote: Various projects have worked on 8c to make it generate code for other OSs, have any of these resulted in code that could generate a very _very_ simple ELF shared library sutiable for linux? -Steve The 8l in Go can produce ELF binaries -- it's the linker rather than the compiler you want to look at for this. Last I heard, Go's 8l wasn't compatible with Plan 9's 8c, but there's an 8c in Go so that doesn't matter too much. I'm sure some Go fans want to use system C libraries by dynamic linking, but I'm not so sure about producing a linkable library. There has been demand for this in Go-land for a long time, see: http://code.google.com/p/go/issues/detail?id=256 I'm sure many people, including the core Go team, would be very happy if somebody worked on this. Even given my visceral hatred for dynamic linking, this would be quite useful for things like creating Python modules in Go and other such tasks. So please, if you are going to work on this feature for other reasons, consider doing it via improving the Go toolchain. Uriel Thinking it over, I'd rather use the regular Linux toolchain for the task. You can still write sensible C for gcc to compile, and I think you'll have a lot less work to do. Besides, it's the approach taken by p9p, inferno, and drawterm, it works well for them. If you're concerned about compile time just lower the optimisation level or choose a generic architecture to optimise for. -- This is obviously some strange usage of the word simple that I was previously unaware of.
Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox - Clone
On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 8:18 PM, John Floren j...@jfloren.net wrote: Some people would love warp-to-location for Undo/Redo, some I'm sure would hate it. Some people can't stand that up/down arrow keys scroll the page rather than move the cursor (I'm not one). Acme might benefit from a config file in $home/lib/acme.conf or something. Yeah yeah, Plan 9 doesn't use a lot of config files, but Acme is one of the most complex bits of software we've got. This could allow the addition of new functionality (like a switch to make Undo/Redo warp-to-location) while still maintaining Curmudgeon Mode (triggered by not having an acme.conf). Rob can predict the future and already answered to this a few days ago in golang-dev: https://groups.google.com/d/msg/golang-dev/ov2CtuwmNmM/QpOZvsGCBFkJ
Re: [9fans] Summary of acme chords
On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 8:50 PM, Tom Lieber t...@alltom.com wrote: On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 11:13 AM, Brian Vito brian.v...@gmail.com wrote: How would you put together the chart without any empty fees? This is how I've always visualized it: http://alltom.com/files/misc/chords.png Thanks, this is a quite nice visualization, but i would keep the left button in some shade of green on the paste, cut and copy pictures, to indicate you should hold it. In any case hope you are ok that I added it to http://acme.cat-v.org/mouse Thanks again. Uriel
Re: [9fans] Summary of acme chords
On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 9:34 PM, andrey mirtchovski mirtchov...@gmail.com wrote: http://alltom.com/files/misc/chords.png a suggestion? http://i.imgur.com/hjFJa.png Ah, that is even better, I added a different green to the held button, and updated the version at: http://acme.cat-v.org/mouse But now I'm thinking, the text under Select and Paste should not be the same, unless you are pasting nothing or exactly the text you are pasting over.
Re: [9fans] 9vx instability
On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 3:02 AM, erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.net wrote: if folks have a problem with 9front it is not technical. folks don't get that far. it is because 9front appears to have defined itself in criticism of people (not code). and further defined itself by some offensive files. this makes 9front appear less than serious. 9front seems to me to define itself as: having fun while getting useful stuff done. With an emphasis in *fun* and in not taking anything too seriously, while one the technical side favoring simplicity and things that work. This might not be exactly the same original Plan 9 values, but seems close enough. Of course in 9front there is also an element of trolling and poking fun at itself and anything else, and I will be happy if cat-v.org takes the blame for that. to be honest, it's one of the reasons i've stopped following 9front. to paraphrase a saying in mathematics, it's not enough to be good you must also be humble. why do you think dennis' ideas took over? I think an important form of humility is not taking yourself too seriously. For an example of this see Dennis' Anti-Foreword to The UNIX-HATERS Handbook: http://simson.net/ref/ugh.pdf 9front can't claim to reach such exquisite levels of seriousness, but it tries. I suspect one of the reasons why 9front exists is because some people in the Plan 9 community this days seem to take themselves and the whole project a bit too seriously. Which is kind of weird for a project called after an Ed Wood film. uriel
Re: [9fans] Plan 9 Related Work
This days probably your best chance is to work with Go (designed by some of the creators of Plan 9 now at Google), there are quite a few organizations using it already in production and some are hiring: http://go-lang.cat-v.org/organizations-using-go uriel On Mon, Nov 21, 2011 at 11:00 PM, Jani Lahtinen jani.lahtin...@gmail.com wrote: I haven't written much here but I have been playing with Plan 9, Plan 9 Port, and Inferno for quite some time now, In the current economic times I feel I should not leave a stone unturned. I am looking for work, either parttime or permanent, hopefully related to Plan 9, as I have developed some affinity to good design related to it. I do not want to include my CV here but I can gladly provide one. As an EU national that area is the most convenient but I can relocate if needed. Jani Lahtinen
Re: [9fans] shaney turns 30!
On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 6:12 PM, Bruce Ellis bruce.el...@gmail.com wrote: uriel is shaney incarnate. Thanks for the compliment! ;) By the way, shaney has a new home: http://glenda.cat-v.org/friends/mark-v-shaney/ Enjoy! uriel
Re: [9fans] shaney turns 30!
On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 6:12 PM, Bruce Ellis bruce.el...@gmail.com wrote: uriel is shaney incarnate. throw me a snail address and shaney will send you a solstice card. A shaney solstice card sounds awesome! Uriel Mangado Bråvallavägen 12 182 66 Djursholm (SWEDEN) brucee On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 12:08 AM, maht maht-9f...@maht0x0r.net wrote: On 16/12/2010 07:57, Bruce Ellis wrote: my little buddy mark v. shany is about to turn 30. what a rascal. i found this today, which is when he was fascinated with kate, http://groups.google.com/group/net.singles/browse_thread/thread/e015681abe01adc6/b4b762de5d50e71d#b4b762de5d50e71d i'll have to get him over for his birthday. anyone have a 9 track reader? brucee I've seen his work on Facebook - My year in Facebook status' which is Mark doing your status' for a year. I showed him Uriel's IRC comment log too, I couldn't tell the difference ;) M
Re: [9fans] fOSSa
On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 12:00 PM, tlaro...@polynum.com wrote: On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 11:02:04AM +0200, Mathieu Lonjaret wrote: Hi, Will anyone here be attending fOSSa? (http://fossa2010.inrialpes.fr/) I'm afraid it doesn't look very interesting from a technical pov... Yes... Quote: the second edition of fOSSa conference presents this phenomenon as a new social paradigm. Sigh... And this is with our money... Go on strike for Glenda! Demand more carrots! But as soon as I read: INRIA, I knew. We should be grateful for INRIA's unmatched gifts to the future of mankind, see for example: http://reflex.gforge.inria.fr/ It is certain that future generations will marvel at projects like this the same way we marvel at the ancient pyramids of Giza. There is so much to be done, and so few to do. The EU should setup a CAP program for the software industry that paid programmers not to program. Unlike with the CAP, this would provide an unquestionable net-social benefit to the world. uriel
Re: [9fans] Fifth Edition
On Tue, Sep 28, 2010 at 12:27 AM, Steve Simon st...@quintile.net wrote: I put some historic papers and distribution images (copyright permitting) on http://plan9.bell-labs.com/sources/contrib/steve/historic, and I believe uriel has more on http://www.cat-v.org All the historical papers I have collected over the years are available at: http://doc.cat-v.org/plan_9/ and the 2nd Ed manual is online at: http://man.cat-v.org/plan_9_2nd_ed/ If anyone has access to the 1st Ed manuals or distribution, I will be happy to also add them to cat-v.org Enjoy uriel
[9fans] A new kind of Plan 9 FAQ
I recently made a fascinating archeological discovery: http://doc.cat-v.org/plan_9/humour/shaneys-plan9-faq Enjoy! uriel
Re: [9fans] Plan9 ezine
On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 5:45 PM, Enrico Weigelt weig...@metux.de wrote: Hi folks, anyone here interested in helping on a little plan9-related eZine ? I've set up an joomla for it, and I also can provide an integrated video hosting (venti-based ;-p). No content yet, suggestions or contributions appreciated :) I really would appreciate it if more people contributed content to 9times: http://ninetimes.cat-v.org Aediks has started to post some stuff, but obviously there are many more things that could be added (I have some interviews that I have to finish transcribing and posted for example). Anyone interested on being able to post articles to 9times just send me an email and I'll create a werc editor account you can use to post stuff. uriel cu -- -- Enrico Weigelt, metux IT service -- http://www.metux.de/ phone: +49 36207 519931 email: weig...@metux.de mobile: +49 174 7066481 icq: 210169427 skype: nekrad666 -- Embedded-Linux / Portierung / Opensource-QM / Verteilte Systeme --
[9fans] Plan9 ezine
On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 7:16 PM, erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.net wrote: Anyone interested on being able to post articles to 9times just send me an email and I'll create a werc editor account you can use to post stuff. suggestion: it would be nice if blog entries, etc on ninetimes were either signed or didn't contain personal pronouns. Good point, they used to include the name of the author, but I think I removed it a while ago because nobody else was posting, I should add it back, the information is still there (i think) just need to display it. uriel
Re: [9fans] SVN
On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 5:11 PM, Jeff Sickel j...@corpus-callosum.com wrote: On Jan 18, 2010, at 6:20 AM, Steve Simon wrote: I am told that the company I work for have decided to move from CVS to SVN, so I have to follow. The logical choice--given Subversion was always intended as _the_ CVS replacement. A total idiotic choice. Svn is an abomination, only good thing about it is that it makes a great example of 'second system syndrome' and of precisely how not to design, build and develop software. I have trouble thinking about anything in svn that doesn't suck hugely. Having used both, I honestly think CVS is preferable to svn, at least CVS didn't corrupt your repo randomly, it could be ported to new platforms without being irrevocably driven to commit suicide, and I don't remember it being as ridiculously painfully slow as svn. In either case one is better off not using any version control system at all (or if you are lucky, kenfs, fossil, hg or git). uriel Has anyone ported SVN to plan9 (I only need the client side), or alternatively is anyone using linuxemu to run the Linux binary? After spending way too many years of misspent youth trying to get SVN working (well) on various platforms, I finally threw in the towel, picked a DVCS and have never looked back. The breaking point was when I realized it was easier to build Python from scratch on an OS from a company that uses three letters way too often than it was to even get the basic portions of the Subversion dependency tree in place. The problem with the DVCS route: most of the tools that allow working with Subversion require the svn client, or at least the library. Your milage may vary. All that said, getting subversion to build and work is a good test case for APE. If nothing else, it is a great place for linuxemu... -jas
Re: [9fans] IWP9 Acid Trips Video
There are mirrors of the videos and other stuff at http://iwp9.cat-v.org but in this case I think the original recording is simply broken, sorry :( uriel On Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 9:59 PM, Lyndon Nerenberg (VE6BBM/VE7TFX) lyn...@orthanc.ca wrote: I finally got around to watching Russ' Acid talk, but the video I have end about 26 minutes in -- just into the discussion about kernel debugging. I'm not sure if this was a problem with the source video, or just my copy, which looks like: lyn...@frodo% ls -l IWP*; sha1sum IWP* --rw-r--r-- M 51 lyndon lyndon 148049360 Jul 17 2009 IWP9-Acid_Trips.mov 104355563b8bcc6fc1540086232f018f7d2a4ae8 IWP9-Acid_Trips.mov I tried grabbing another copy from 9grid.net but the web server is currently broken. Is there a version out there that includes the complete talk? --lyndon
Re: [9fans] mishandling empty lists - let's fix it
On Sun, Oct 4, 2009 at 12:46 PM, Richard Miller 9f...@hamnavoe.com wrote: `--' ends options, forces consistent multi-file mode, allows empty lists Hey, yeah, great idea. And why not use '---' to force switching to Linux compatible mode, and '' to switch to BSD syntax, and '-' for System V syntax (5 hyphens, System 5, easy to remember). Oh, and we might need a way to switch back to Plan 9 syntax. That better be '' (0 hyphens). Example: cat -s - -s '' -v prints the contents of file named '-v', squeezing multiple empty lines (BSD -s) and silencing error message (System V -s). I'm sure the people in charge of writing the next version of the PoSix standard will be very happy to adopt your proposal! That is, if they have not independently 'discovered' this fantastic solution to this horrible 'problem' already on their own. Of course, they could also move with the times, and adopt an XML format for command arguments which would be much more extensible and Web 2.0 compliant. That way all commands could share the same dynamically linked parser, and one could write scripts with their favorite XML-editor! uriel
Re: [9fans] Blocks in C
http://ninetimes.cat-v.org/news/2009/09/07/0-mplayer9/ On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 10:31 PM, Anant Narayanan an...@kix.in wrote: On Sep 17, 2009, at 10:26 PM, erik quanstrom wrote: Good luck trying to get Plan 9 to play video! minooka; lc /sys/src/9/pc/*tv*.c devtv.c vgatvp3020.c vgatvp3026.c Sure, if you have a TV tuner. What I was referring to was Plan 9's ability (or lack thereof) to decode and play digital video codecs. Just one of those things that prevent someone from running only Plan 9 on their computers -- you need one of the big 3 for web browser + video. -- Anant
Re: [9fans] Blocks in C
On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 5:31 PM, David Leimbachleim...@gmail.com wrote: [snip] I guess we'll see what happens. We all know what will happen: more and more layers of crud will be added. Just as Russ predicted: From: r...@plan9.bell-labs.com (Russ Cox) Subject: Re: [9fans] design clairvoyance the 9 way Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 04:05:31 GMT What does tomorrow's unix look like? I'm confident that tomorrow's Unix will look like today's Unix, only cruftier. Russ
Re: [9fans] Blocks in C
On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 11:05 AM, Greg Comeaucom...@panix.com wrote: In article 25cf9336-c071-44a5-ab04-6bb042bc5...@kix.in, Anant Narayanan an...@kix.in wrote: I understand the argument that blocks don't feel C-like, but the argument that you can do everything with just using function pointers is BS. Even one step further, even if we all agree blocks are BS, As I was reading this thread I kept hearing inside my head boyd's voice screaming this at frequent intervals: Blocks are bollocks! uriel moving more generally, that something can already be done using feature X had BETTER be a consideration, but that consideration alone is often insufficient. -- Greg Comeau / 4.3.10.1 with C++0xisms now in beta! Comeau C/C++ ONLINE == http://www.comeaucomputing.com/tryitout World Class Compilers: Breathtaking C++, Amazing C99, Fabulous C90. Comeau C/C++ with Dinkumware's Libraries... Have you tried it?
Re: [9fans] Petabytes on a budget: JBODs + Linux + JFS
On Fri, Sep 4, 2009 at 3:56 PM, Eris Discordiaeris.discor...@gmail.com wrote: if you have quanstro/sd installed, sdorion(3) discusses how it controls the backplane lights. Um, I don't have that because I don't have any running Plan 9 instances, but I'll try finding it on the web (if it's been through man2html at some time). Here you go: http://man.cat-v.org/plan_9_contrib/3/sdorion
Re: [9fans] Blocks in C
On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 5:54 PM, erik quanstromquans...@quanstro.net wrote: Plan 9 has a lot to offer and a lot for others to learn from. Concurrency framework that could scale up to 1K [virtual]cores in an SMP configuration is not one of those features though. forgive the ignorance, but is there any such thing as a 1k-core smp machine? and is apple doing such a thing? even commodity intel and amd mp offerings are numa. they're not very n, but they're still n. That, and I still don't see how C 'blocks' solve the problem in question. But I'm dumber than the Apple geniuses, and grateful for my stupidity. uriel
Re: [9fans] Blocks in C
On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 9:50 PM, David Leimbachleim...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 12:36 PM, erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.net wrote: Apple's using it all over the place in Snow Leopard, in all their native apps to write cleaner, less manual-lock code. At least, that's the claim :-). could someone explain this to me? i'm just missing how naming a block of code could change its locking properties. The explanation is in the manual I linked to earlier in this discussion. If you want to see examples there's two I can think of available for download. One is called DispatchLife the other is DispatchFractal. I've looked at DispatchLife, and there's no explicit locking of state for every cell being concurrently update in Conway's game of life. i can't find DispatchLife after a few minutes of googling. i've read the manual, and it looks like csp to me. clearly i am a reprobate outside the apple reality distortion field. Google doesn't have all the answers, I actually had to use Bing today, and it worked... anyway here's the link to DispatchLife. http://developer.apple.com/mac/library/samplecode/DispatchLife/ could you explain why this isn't csp and why this can't be done with regular c (that is why we need the concept of an unnamed function pointer) and the thread library? I'm actually planning to figure this stuff out a bit more and blog about it, hopefully by Friday sometime (tomorrow). I don't agree that any of this stuff is strictly needed. One can plod along with pthreads and do it wrong all day. One doesn't *need* C either, I've What do pthreads have to do with anything? Ever heard of libthread, libtask and rfork? I guess not, Apple certainly hasn't, and they sure are doing a great job at making their developers keep track of as much Apple-induced crap as possible... uriel seen whole OSes for x86 written in assembly. It all depends on how much crap you want to keep track of. Dave - erik
Re: [9fans] Blocks in C
On Fri, Sep 4, 2009 at 4:56 PM, David Leimbachleim...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Sep 4, 2009 at 7:20 AM, erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.net wrote: I could be wrong, but I feel like you're not really interested in entertaining that this idea could be useful, but more interested in shooting it down [...] remember, if a guy says to the king, hey you're fly's undone, we send that guy to the stockades for a week. meanwhile the king's fly remains undone. since the raison d'etre of blocks is ease of programming, i would think it would follow that it should be uniformly easier across the board. if there are big exceptions to this (like extra locking), i would think the feature would earn a fail. I am totally agreeing with you so far on all points you've just made. And I think that's why Apple is seeking feedback. Here is some feedback for Apple: Fire your whole software and programming division, they are making the GNU and Gnome crack monkeys look sane, competent and responsible. uriel The advantage of the higher level languages that were designed with concurrency in the language, is that you don't feel like you're twiddling the bits manually so much to express an algorithm. i'm just noting that if blocks require locking as you mention, then this is inferior to calling a function through a pointer. Indeed. unless you don't accept more locking is worse, it's hard to argue this point. My entire point is this will often allow you to get away with far less locking, or at least, that's what the intention of all of this is. you can accuse me of hating, that won't change how blocks work. I'm not saying you are hating on blocks, I said I'm beginning to feel as if perhaps you're trying to find holes in it, but you keep saying things that I don't think are true about them. For example, claiming that blocks require more locking is evidently false if you look at example code that's been provided. DispatchLife, for example, includes contextual data pointing to neighboring cells, and because of the serial nature of the queues involved, it's impossible to have two threads updating the same shared data at once. The story is different if you take those same blocks, and have them scheduled to run on the global concurrent queue, in which case many of them could be running at once. So if you code it up incorrectly, you sure could have to do some locking. But if you take advantage of the (too many in my opinion) abstractions provided that help to guarantee you will not need locking, then you shouldn't need to do any explicit locking of shared state. And that is exactly why Apple bothered to do all of this. If not, they're totally wasting their time, because, as you've said, to create something that would require more locking is a big lose. Deep down inside, I want people to stop trying to code stuff like this in C and try the massively scaled parallelism/concurrency stuff in other languages better suited to the problem space. why would you use c then? Because if I wanted to write something for Mac OS X, and I needed it to work with Grand Central Dispatch, I've not been provided a lot of options at the moment to do anything else. Dave - erik
Re: [9fans] nice quote
On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 8:46 PM, David Leimbachleim...@gmail.com wrote: I mean HTTP has a small protocol, but if you count all the things you can do with REST, then it looks like a lot more. HTTP might be many things, small is not one of them. That said, your overall point is correct. Peace uriel
Re: [9fans] Blocks in C
On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 4:20 PM, Devon H. O'Delldevon.od...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/9/2 Uriel urie...@gmail.com: On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 10:04 AM, Anant Narayananan...@kix.in wrote: Mac OS 10.6 introduced a new C compiler frontend (clang), which added support for blocks in C [1]. Blocks basically add closures and anonymous functions to C (and it's derivatives). Full details with examples are in the linked article. I think the feature is quite elegant and might be useful in cases where you want map/reduce like functionality in C. Er., I might be more dumb than usual, but why on earth would you need/want this garbage to get map/reduce functionality in C? To me it seems the typical lets come up with some cute 'feature' and then we will figure out how to hype ourselves all the way to hell. I don't see why you'd particularly need / want this in C, but the argument here seems silly given that you've stressed your affinity to other languages that implement closures / anonymous functions. My affinity is to language that display *conceptual integrity*. In any case, implementing closures in C isn't too difficult, and if you want to return a function, just return a pointer to it. Exactly, I still fail to understand the point of this feature, function points have worked fine for ages, but then I never understood any religion, and that is what Apple seems to be all about. Peace uriel
Re: [9fans] Blocks in C
So libthread must be a figment of 9fan's imagination... Of course, for Apple (or anyone else) to learn from Plan 9 would be impossible, so instead they had to add a new 'feature' to C. uriel On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 5:07 PM, David Leimbachleim...@gmail.com wrote: Has anyone actually looked at the spec or is this just armchair philosophy? I've actually looked at these, and used em a little bit. They're not at all as bad as I once thought they could be, and the reason they're there is to work with a concurrency framework onto which blocks can be scheduled to run on various queues, to do concurrent programming. If you're running Snow Leopard, they're being used all over the place for thread management. Here's my objective and actually informed review: Can something go horribly wrong with these blocks if you don't use them properly? You bet! Imagine many concurrently running blocks playing with shared global pointers... Luckily the serial queues are able to prevent that exact thing from happening. :-) Does it make the code easier to read? So far my answer is no, not at all. Does it succeed in the goal of making it possible to do lockless programming of concurrent applications? Yes, there's several rather interesting examples showing the concurrent computation of all the cells in Conway's Life for example. I'd say this beats the snot out of coding with pthreads. However, if I want real concurrency programming, I would NEVER use C over Erlang or Haskell by choice (or Limbo if it's available). Blocks themselves are really not terribly useful, you need the libdispatch library to make the real value in them come out, which does all the queue management by talking to the subsystem of Snow Leopard called Grand Central Dispatch. Dave On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 4:40 AM, Eris Discordia eris.discor...@gmail.com wrote: Perl people love closures. It's one of their common programming techniques. Closures in C? Way to screw its clarity and closeness to the real (or virtual) machine. And in the end closure or no closure doesn't change how the binary looks but allows programmers to pepper source with brain-teasers (now, what does _that_ evaluate to?). Not good at all. --On Wednesday, September 02, 2009 10:04 +0200 Anant Narayanan an...@kix.in wrote: Mac OS 10.6 introduced a new C compiler frontend (clang), which added support for blocks in C [1]. Blocks basically add closures and anonymous functions to C (and it's derivatives). Full details with examples are in the linked article. I think the feature is quite elegant and might be useful in cases where you want map/reduce like functionality in C. How much effort would it be to support a feature similar to blocks in 8c (and family)? What are your thoughts on the idea in general? -- Anant [1] http://arstechnica.com/apple/reviews/2009/08/mac-os-x-10-6.ars/10
Re: [9fans] Blocks in C
On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 10:04 AM, Anant Narayananan...@kix.in wrote: Mac OS 10.6 introduced a new C compiler frontend (clang), which added support for blocks in C [1]. Blocks basically add closures and anonymous functions to C (and it's derivatives). Full details with examples are in the linked article. I think the feature is quite elegant and might be useful in cases where you want map/reduce like functionality in C. Er., I might be more dumb than usual, but why on earth would you need/want this garbage to get map/reduce functionality in C? To me it seems the typical lets come up with some cute 'feature' and then we will figure out how to hype ourselves all the way to hell. Peace uriel How much effort would it be to support a feature similar to blocks in 8c (and family)? What are your thoughts on the idea in general? -- Anant [1] http://arstechnica.com/apple/reviews/2009/08/mac-os-x-10-6.ars/10
Re: [9fans] new 9atom.iso
On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 7:23 AM, ron minnichrminn...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 6:54 PM, Federico G. Benaventobenave...@gmail.com wrote: I could achieve the same as I did by doing copy 9load E: on windows with this new approach, but I'd need to boot some linux live CD and dd my way out to put the new loader there which I'll be too hacky and I'd probably need a version of prepdisk for linux on that live cd as well, if I got it right. yep, this is a good point. It's the same reason that Peter Anvin argued against using linux as a boot loader in place of grub or pxe or whatever. There are simple standards on booting PCs, and if you conform to them, you are more going to work in all cases. If you don't conform to them, there are more cases where you can't work. Your Vista example is a good case study. So the FAT partition is good when you want to interoperate. But as you point out, it's kind of 1/2 of a real fat partition, which means sometimes, even if it looks ok in vista or whatever, it's not really ok. It's not really possible to fit a true FAT file system handler in a 512 byte pbs. The Plan 9 pbs (and I assume most of them) are really a find a file by name, get the offset, and just start loading contiguous data form whatever is at that offset in the partition until done. That's why there are things like install_grub, or lilo, or other such tools. If you delete and replace 9load and it ends up discontiguous, well, you may not be able to boot, hence the need to sometimes remove and replace all the files in the FAT. There are a number of reasons to like using a plan 9 kernel to boot your machine: drivers, native file systems, and so on. Interoperation with vista is not one of them. It may well be in the long term that the best way to remove 9load is to make Plan 9 grub-bootable. You try to present this as if using a Plan 9 kernel to boot somehow precludes the use of the existing 9fat setup, this is not true, and the whole point of the original GSoC project was precisely that: to boot using a kernel without changing anything about 9fat and plan9.ini so we could have a drop in replacement for 9load. And given that such a setup would have all the advantages you list here, plus would retain the advantages people enjoy from 9fat, it is hard to understand why doing something else is such a great idea. uriel But 9null is a pretty interesting experiment, all things considered. And, it's there to hack. Grab the code and have it, maybe make it better or fit what you want better or show us all a better way to do things. ron
Re: [9fans] new 9atom.iso
On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 4:54 PM, Iruata Souzairu.mu...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 9:50 AM, mattmaht-9f...@maht0x0r.net wrote: FIGHT i fought myself. pbs32 (9null's pbs) now works with 9fat without caring about it. it loops reading a block and checking for the a.out(8) signature. if the 9pcload is on 9fat, not a problem anymore. Wonderful! Seems that everyone won the fight in the end. Perhaps fighting is not as useless as some make it? Peace uriel
Re: [9fans] iwp9 deadline extension
On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 10:35 PM, Don Baileydon.bai...@gmail.com wrote: Is there an IWP9 website for this year that provides information about dates and locations? Thanks, I try to keep http://iwp9.cat-v.org updated with information for every year. uriel D On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 1:11 PM, Devon H. O'Dell devon.od...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/8/28 Eric Van Hensbergen eri...@gmail.com: Satelite conference locations in Antwerp and Oz may be be a bad idea assuming folks can accomodate crazy time differences. Not a bad idea, does anyone on the else pc have A/V equipment? I do, but it's not great stuff (just webcam quality), so it'd be like last resort stuff. I could get a DV cam if necessary. --dho Sent from my iPhone On Aug 28, 2009, at 2:21 PM, erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.net wrote: On Fri Aug 28 15:09:25 EDT 2009, noah.ev...@gmail.com wrote: We don't have any travel budget now does coraid have any sponsors willing to fund travel? that's a tough one. my currency thus far has largely been tom sawyering and cajolerie. coraid and uga have helped with facilities, but there is no money for travel. the gsoc group had talked about using some of the google money for such things. in case this is not evident, it is okay to submit a paper if you can't attend. - erik
Re: [9fans] new 9atom.iso
Er, it doesn't need a new PBS, booting Plan 9 from a Plan 9 kernel already worked just fine with what russ did years ago. uriel On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 7:05 PM, ron minnichrminn...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 9:51 AM, David Leimbachleim...@gmail.com wrote: I think there's work going on to use plan 9 to load plan 9 (maybe?) to replace 9load. It's a gsoc project for Iruata to which I just gave a passing grade. it's doable. It needs a new PBS, which iruata wrote. ron
Re: [9fans] new 9atom.iso
Can it load and parse plan9.ini? uriel On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 8:40 PM, Iruata Souzairu.mu...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 3:26 PM, Urielurie...@gmail.com wrote: Er, it doesn't need a new PBS, booting Plan 9 from a Plan 9 kernel already worked just fine with what russ did years ago. uriel i heard that from you already. i just don't know why haven't you done it yet. for the ones interested, the code is at http://src.oitobits.net/9null. i'm writing a README explaining how to compile and install. iru
Re: [9fans] new 9atom.iso
Because the whole point of the project was to replace 9load, and the way plan9 systems tell 9load what kernel to load is using plan9.ini On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 8:57 PM, ron minnichrminn...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 11:48 AM, Urielurie...@gmail.com wrote: Can it load and parse plan9.ini? why do you want to do that? Just wondering. ron
Re: [9fans] new 9atom.iso
On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 9:17 PM, ron minnichrminn...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 12:07 PM, Urielurie...@gmail.com wrote: Because the whole point of the project was to replace 9load, and the way plan9 systems tell 9load what kernel to load is using plan9.ini no, yes. the point of the project was to have a new way to load that did not require 9load Right. or 9fat or any legacy at all. Wrong. I am surprised you would tie yourself down to legacy that way. Or I'm not. 9fat might be 'legacy', but unlike 9load it causes no problems or wasted duplicated efforts, is simple and reliable, it is convenient because can be accessed from other OSes, and is used by most Plan 9 systems to store their kernels and plan9.inis To replace 9fat we would need something that at least shared all its advantages, and I have not seen any proposal that does. Do we stick with that file format forever? is it perfect and never to be changed? plan9.ini is certainly not perfect, and I'm happy to see it changed some day, but that was not what the project was about. Anyway, it doesn't matter because apparently the bits I wanted have been written (or so I'm told) and should work (if I'm not mistaken) just fine in a backwards compatible fashion using russ' boot scheme. uriel
Re: [9fans] new 9atom.iso
On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 9:34 PM, ron minnichrminn...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 12:27 PM, Urielurie...@gmail.com wrote: plan9.ini is certainly not perfect, and I'm happy to see it changed some day, but that was not what the project was about. I'm glad to know you defined the project. I guess the guy who wrote the code (Iruata) and the mentor (me) were just confused. Yes, you were confused, and yes, the project was my idea (although that was just a restatement of russ original suggestion). But it doesn't matter because it seems eventually iru got around writing the code needed to fulfill russ original idea, so I'm happy because if I understood this correctly, it should be possible to put that together with russ loader and have a backwards compatible replacement for 9load. uriel
Re: [9fans] new 9atom.iso
On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 10:14 PM, erik quanstromquans...@coraid.com wrote: Do we stick with that file format forever? is it perfect and never to be changed? would it be fair to ask a the same question from a little different perspective? could someone explain what the disadvantages and problems with 9fat are? i'm asking out of ignorance, since 9fat hasn't been a problem for me. It has not been a problem for anyone I know. It might not be perfect or beautiful, but I have yet to hear any suggestion for a replacement that has all the advantages of 9fat (simple, reliable, easily accessible from other systems, etc.) uriel
Re: [9fans] inferno-list
It is fine for some, it isn't for others. uriel On Wed, Aug 26, 2009 at 2:50 PM, Michaelian Ennismichaelian.en...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 11:55 PM, hiro23h...@googlemail.com wrote: Sorry for posting here, but I can't reach you inferno guys. I don't know whether it could be gmail's faults, tell me if I can help in any way. inferno-l...@vitanuova.com Technical details of permanent failure: Google tried to deliver your message, but it was rejected by the other server returned was: 554 554 5.7.1 rejected: SPF record does not match sender (state 15). Seems to be fine for me @ gmail (now anyway). Ian
Re: [9fans] The first annual Hello, World challenge
On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 8:53 PM, andrey mirtchovskimirtchov...@gmail.com wrote: also, i discovered something new today: ... decided to link everything dynamically. To enforce this (allmost) all static libraries are removed (or not even build)... $ gcc t.c -static /usr/bin/ld: cannot find -lc collect2: ld returned 1 exit status What the Fuck?!?! What kind of lunix did that? uriel
Re: [9fans] sed oddity
On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 6:00 PM, roger pepperogpe...@gmail.com wrote:
2009/8/18 Uriel urie...@gmail.com:
Interesting, this reminds me of a question I had: is there any command
that would read from stdin, and write to stdout, but if there was an
error when writing to stdout it would ignore it and continue reading
stdin? It is trivial to do it in C, but don't want to require an extra
program just to keep werc's error logs clean of spurious noise.
it seems to me that dd -conv noerror
should do what you're after, but a quick inspection
of the source shows me that i'm wrong.
i think that could be construed as a bug.
gorka's suggestion isn't quite right, i think, as
you probably do want the cat to terminate when it
reads eof or an error,
Exactly.
so something like:
e = write
while(~ $e write*){
cat
e = $status
}
might do the job better (untested).
Nice trick, will try it out, thanks!
uriel
Re: [9fans] sed oddity
Interesting, this reminds me of a question I had: is there any command that would read from stdin, and write to stdout, but if there was an error when writing to stdout it would ignore it and continue reading stdin? It is trivial to do it in C, but don't want to require an extra program just to keep werc's error logs clean of spurious noise. I guess based on what you said, that I might be able to use sed, but only until your complaint is fixed :) uriel On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 4:41 PM, hugo riverauai...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, is there some reason why sed doesn't check for write errors on its stdout? (or at least it doesn't report them) I am implementing a fs, and I wasted my whole afternoon trying to figure out why sed 300q file mnt/data doesn't say anything about the write error I was expecting. Note that sed 300q file | cat mnt/data shows my error message ;-) Am I missing something? Saludos -- Hugo
Re: [9fans] Thrift RPC
The software industry is the ultimate recreation of Sisyphus' curse. uriel On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 8:49 AM, Daniel Lyonsfus...@storytotell.org wrote: On Aug 12, 2009, at 9:56 PM, erik quanstrom wrote: if we're going back there, just take me out back and shoot me now. i want to remember some progress in computer science. The principal joy I derive from using Plan 9 (and I am quite new) is that it is so well architected. By day I am a web developer (when I'm employed) and I am just thoroughly sickened by the industry. It seems to me that at some point, the cool guys that beat me up in middle school somehow insinuated their way into technology and have hijacked everything. Currently they seem to be proceeding to reinvent the same things over and over again, on top of their own reinventions, for no particular gain except to make new jargon and get their name on the latest version. It's hard to even maintain a portfolio of work one's done when the lifespan of a website is dwindling to one year or six months. And that certainly reduces the incentive to give it everything you've got and make something really good. I was curious about ICE, because it seemed like they actually took CORBA and said, what would this look like if it were implemented by engineers rather than a committee? But I don't think the problem facing the world is how do I integrate all these languages, possibly over the network? but rather how do I minimize all of this fucking complexity and still get things done? XML-RPC and SOAP are answers to stupid questions, which is why we have REST, but the joke is that none of the technologies that it relies on are even implemented enough by their own specifications such that it can really be used. It strikes me as ludicrous that you can go make a new Rails app and have to write by hand (or find someone's plugin) to create a login system for you, which won't even happen on the HTTP level (which supports it), or the RDBMS level (which also supports it), or the OS level (which again supports it.) How many times do we have to write username/password logins before we're done and we can fucking can move on? It's not like anything is really different at any of these levels, just the way the bytes get handed around. Then you have to be sure to use a database abstraction layer, because everyone seems to have forgotten that the database *is* an abstraction layer—this fact got lost in the shuffle as it became too complex for anyone to really understand completely. Yet nobody seems to be worried that the same thing might happen to their little project as they pile code upon code and it slowly swells up just like everything that came before or that it depends on. Before long, they need an abstraction layer for their abstraction layer! Then the schmucks come along and complain about performance and demand to be taught every dirty trick to take their barely useful code and remove all the clarity from it in the name of a performance. Software is cancer. I don't know how long you've been a programmer, Erik, but I'm sure it's far longer than I. From my perspective, no, there is no progress in computer science, we're spending all our time trying to climb out of the same muddy hole we've been in since Dijkstra was a newlywed and Knuth was writing for MAD Magazine. CS has such advanced amnesia that it can't remember what prompted the last question it was asked and so it just repeats the question to itself over and over, never really aware that it isn't an answer. We dig and dig but the problem only gets worse because digging doesn't get you out of a muddy hole. The things that keep me going are the pleasure I get from knowing a lot of obscure stuff, talking to intelligent, knowledgeable people such as comprise this mailing list, and (oddly) writing SQL. I wouldn't say I have much hope for the industry in general unless there's some sort of major restructuring. I try not to make that my problem and instead share the things I know about with people I think might benefit. So consider this the opposite of being flamed. I feel exactly the same way you do. I hope that in some time I will be doing as much for the good as you and others on this list that carry the Plan 9 torch and endure my stupid questions (and now my rants.) — Daniel Lyons
Re: [9fans] Thrift RPC
On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 4:27 PM, David Leimbachleim...@gmail.com wrote: On 8/13/09, erik quanstrom quans...@coraid.com wrote: we don't use te*xt for 9p, do we? the difference being, 9p is the transport not the representation of the data and 9p has a fixed set of messages. Also 9p aims at file systems pretty obviously where Thirft is a generic RPC mechanism with stub compilers for bindings for several languages. I have not been able to convince coworkers that filesystem namespaces are the way to go. I think they think it is too hard. *shrug* you can lead a horse... Funny, the problem I usually have is that people think file systems are *too simple*, oh, no data types other than *byte stream* and *drectory*, and no type checking! We are all going to die! People seem to have trouble believing something simple can do a job that they have convinced themselves needs to be very complicated. uriel
Re: [9fans] manpages broken/outdated
If it is of any consolation, it seems to be here: http://man.cat-v.org/plan_9/4/usbdisk uriel On Mon, Aug 10, 2009 at 12:10 PM, Bela Valekbval...@gmail.com wrote: I have checked it on 3 different installations, the 'usbdisk' manpage is missing, on fresh installations too. Its not a filesystem corruption for sure. Most other USB-related manpages still list the nonexistent -f and -l parameters for the 'usb/disk' command. Greetings: Béla
Re: [9fans] 9base-3
I haven't used the tarball in years because I simply find hg more
convenient, but a few times when I have recommended somebody to
install p9p they have complained about problems unpacking the tarball,
I just tell them to do a fresh hg checkout instead, and that usually
works for them. Maybe they are simply confused by whatever errors gnu
tar spews for who knows what reason, but people that have no problems
with other tarballs do have problems with the p9p tarballs, and it has
been going on for a while.
uriel
On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 8:58 AM, Russ Coxr...@swtch.com wrote:
On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 6:13 PM, Urielurie...@gmail.com wrote:
Always get p9p from hg, the tarballs have been partially broken for
ages and
Excuse me?
Instead of keeping that to yourself why not tell me so I can fix it?
I know many people who install from the tar file, though,
so I expect you're just whining instead of checking the facts,
as usual.
always have problems being untared in some environments
Again, details?
FreeBSD:
holo=; hget http://swtch.com/plan9port/plan9port.tgz | gunzip | tar xf -
holo=; ls -lR plan9 | awk '/^-/ {s+=$5} END{print s}'
49413465
holo=;
Linux:
c2=; gunzip plan9port.tgz | tar xf -
tar: Ignoring unknown extended header keyword `SCHILY.dev'
tar: Ignoring unknown extended header keyword `SCHILY.ino'
tar: Ignoring unknown extended header keyword `SCHILY.nlink'
c2=; ls -lR plan9 | awk '/^-/ {s+=$5} END{print s}'
49413465
c2=;
OS X:
mini=; gunzip plan9port.tgz | tar xf -
mini=; ls -lR plan9 | awk '/^-/ {s+=$5} END{print s}'
49342685
mini=;
The GNU tar warnings about SCHILY extensions don't count as
a problem: it's an inconsequential warning message.
The missing 70780 bytes on OS X are the files HI, HX, LH, RC, lH, and rH
from troff/font/devutf/charlib, which have been overwritten with differently
cased versions of the same files. It doesn't matter since basically
no one uses those special characters, and you'd have the same problem
using Hg or any other file program: the bug is in the file system, not
the extractor.
I'm plenty happy for people to use hg instead of the tar files--
I think that's good advice for the people who enjoy using
version control systems--but please don't go spreading
misinformation.
Thanks.
Russ
Re: [9fans] 9base-3
Perhaps a way to solve this problems and save you work and trouble
would be to simply link to: http://code.swtch.com/plan9port/get/tip.gz
and let mercurial do the job of building a tarball for the latest
repo.
uriel
On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 9:35 AM, Urielurie...@gmail.com wrote:
I haven't used the tarball in years because I simply find hg more
convenient, but a few times when I have recommended somebody to
install p9p they have complained about problems unpacking the tarball,
I just tell them to do a fresh hg checkout instead, and that usually
works for them. Maybe they are simply confused by whatever errors gnu
tar spews for who knows what reason, but people that have no problems
with other tarballs do have problems with the p9p tarballs, and it has
been going on for a while.
uriel
On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 8:58 AM, Russ Coxr...@swtch.com wrote:
On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 6:13 PM, Urielurie...@gmail.com wrote:
Always get p9p from hg, the tarballs have been partially broken for
ages and
Excuse me?
Instead of keeping that to yourself why not tell me so I can fix it?
I know many people who install from the tar file, though,
so I expect you're just whining instead of checking the facts,
as usual.
always have problems being untared in some environments
Again, details?
FreeBSD:
holo=; hget http://swtch.com/plan9port/plan9port.tgz | gunzip | tar xf -
holo=; ls -lR plan9 | awk '/^-/ {s+=$5} END{print s}'
49413465
holo=;
Linux:
c2=; gunzip plan9port.tgz | tar xf -
tar: Ignoring unknown extended header keyword `SCHILY.dev'
tar: Ignoring unknown extended header keyword `SCHILY.ino'
tar: Ignoring unknown extended header keyword `SCHILY.nlink'
c2=; ls -lR plan9 | awk '/^-/ {s+=$5} END{print s}'
49413465
c2=;
OS X:
mini=; gunzip plan9port.tgz | tar xf -
mini=; ls -lR plan9 | awk '/^-/ {s+=$5} END{print s}'
49342685
mini=;
The GNU tar warnings about SCHILY extensions don't count as
a problem: it's an inconsequential warning message.
The missing 70780 bytes on OS X are the files HI, HX, LH, RC, lH, and rH
from troff/font/devutf/charlib, which have been overwritten with differently
cased versions of the same files. It doesn't matter since basically
no one uses those special characters, and you'd have the same problem
using Hg or any other file program: the bug is in the file system, not
the extractor.
I'm plenty happy for people to use hg instead of the tar files--
I think that's good advice for the people who enjoy using
version control systems--but please don't go spreading
misinformation.
Thanks.
Russ
Re: [9fans] the old floppy set
On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 6:49 AM, John Florenslawmas...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 2:15 AM, Steve Simonst...@quintile.net wrote: As Anthony says it is very very old, but I might be fun if you had the time on your hands. The 2nd edition books/cdrom are nolonger available but you might find a set seccond hand (abebooks.com etc). The floppys are here: /n/sources/contrib/steve/historic/2nd-edition/pcdist/ I found a complete mirror of the old 2nd edition site and I think uriel has copied it to cat-v.org. You will need 16Mb to install and 8Mb to run a terminal though It will work at 640x480x1 resolution. The 4th edition should run on a 486, though you will need (say) 128Mb of ram - much more if you want to recompile gs(1). -Steve With a little help from FreeDOS, I am now successfully running 2e on a 66MHz 486 with 32 MB of RAM and little bitty hard drive ( 300 MB). It's fun; on the surface, it's not a lot different, although 800x600x1 makes things interesting (I like it, actually... rio hacking time?). I'd kill for the full CD, which I guess would have to go on my other 486, since I seem to recall that the full system needs 500 MB. However, given licensing, I suppose it's out of reach for the time being--anybody with experience in this sort of thing, is there a point in time when it could be distributed freely, or will it be stuck in the You can't have 2e without a license, and you can't have a license state forever? If you follow the insane rules of copyright, you will have to wait at least 90 years or so before it falls into the public domain. And by then they probably will have expanded copyright terms by another extra hundred years, so 'forever' seems about right. uriel
Re: [9fans] linux reinvents factotum, secstore ...
On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 4:44 PM, David Leimbachleim...@gmail.com wrote: Yeah they were hot on CORBA, and KDE folks were doing DCOP, which was derived from some X11 ICE thing... Neither of them was that great, and somehow they've both come back to DBUS. I don't honestly know the rhyme or reason for any of it. Anyone who thought CORBA was the answer didn't seem to understand the question. The problem with CORBA is that it doesn't use XML, fortunately DBUS fixes that. uriel
Re: [9fans] the old floppy set
On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 11:15 AM, Steve Simonst...@quintile.net wrote: As Anthony says it is very very old, but I might be fun if you had the time on your hands. The 2nd edition books/cdrom are nolonger available but you might find a set seccond hand (abebooks.com etc). The floppys are here: /n/sources/contrib/steve/historic/2nd-edition/pcdist/ I found a complete mirror of the old 2nd edition site and I think uriel has copied it to cat-v.org. Yes, you can find a mirror of the 2nd ed site at http://doc.cat-v.org/plan_9/2nd_edition/plan9.att.com/ And the floppy is available at http://doc.cat-v.org/plan_9/2nd_edition/plan9.att.com/pcdist/ but I have not tested it, if you do I would love to hear about it. Enjoy uriel You will need 16Mb to install and 8Mb to run a terminal though It will work at 640x480x1 resolution. The 4th edition should run on a 486, though you will need (say) 128Mb of ram - much more if you want to recompile gs(1). -Steve
Re: [9fans] Acme Configuration
If all you want is to preserve the -a flag, add to your profile:
; fn a { acme -a; }
Problem solved.
uriel
P.S.: Admitedly this doesn't fix up the plumber, but once you have an
acme session the plumber will use it, and you can fix it up for the
plumber equally simply.
On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 10:37 AM, Aaron W. Hsuarcf...@sacrideo.us wrote:
Other than a script to start acme with the -a option, is there some way to
configure the start up option on Acme? I am thinking of the equivalent of a
.exrc file or the like?
Aaron W. Hsu
--
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims
may be the most oppressive. -- C. S. Lewis
Re: [9fans] 9base-3
Always get p9p from hg, the tarballs have been partially broken for ages and always have problems being untared in some environments, hg is fast, painless, and makes it real easy to keep your installation up to date. uriel On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 11:34 PM, Jason Catenajason.cat...@gmail.com wrote: In recently-updated Cygwin (under WinXP), I got several dozen of these warning types ... In file included from regex/regcomp.c:2: ./regexp9.h:8: warning: weak declaration of '__p9l_autolib_regexp9' not supported ... before a compile error ... regex/regcomp.c: In function `regcomp1': regex/regcomp.c:487: error: invalid lvalue in unary `' regex/regcomp.c:487: warning: implicit declaration of function `p9setjmp' make[1]: *** [regex/regcomp.o] Error 1 make[1]: Leaving directory `/cygdrive/d/Profiles/cjc040/opt/src/9base-3/lib9' make: *** [all] Error 2 ... with this code (line 487 is the if line). if(setjmp(regkaboom)) goto out; This project is welcome, for two reasons significant to me. A minimal subset of the scripting tools means I can stop maintaining ksh scripts for machines that I don't want to install plan9port on (eg lab machines I won't use often.) For me, plan9port won't extract fully from its tar file (even if I extract and repackage it) on my brain-dead Windows+Cygwin laptop at work. The plan9port distribution works fine on a Linux machine, so I assume it's Cygwin (I do have enough disk space free). Maybe I should try hg when I'm not behind the firewall, to download the whole distribution file-by-file. Jason Catena
Re: [9fans] off topic: manual sets
Thanks to Fish's contribution I have made the Unix 8th Edition manuals available at: http://man.cat-v.org/unix_8th/ Tons of fascinating stuff there, including the jerq docs in section 9 ( http://man.cat-v.org/unix_8th/9/ ) and what I think is the oldest documentation of the /proc file system (http://man.cat-v.org/unix_8th/4/proc ). Fish also contributed some pages from section 1 of the Unix Writer's Workbench: http://man.cat-v.org/unix_WWB/1/ Thanks again to Fish for this wonderful contributions, and of course to the original authors of all this amazing material. Peace uriel P.S.: I'm still working out a couple of kinks in the web interface that make =(1) and Mail(1) inaccessible, but almost everything else should work fine, if you notice any problems please let me know. On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 11:01 PM, Urielurie...@gmail.com wrote: Slightly off topic (of this thread), but I'm looking for troff sources of 8th, 9th, 10th and Plan 9 1st Editions to complete the man page collections at http://man.cat-v.org If anyone knows where I can find copies of any of those, I would be most grateful. uriel On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 6:13 PM, Benjamin Huntsmanbhunts...@mail2.cu-portland.edu wrote: Sorry for the off-topic post, but I'm striking out on google, and I'm virtually certain that someone here will know... Does anyone happen to have the ISBN's for the 7th Edition manual set? Volume I is 0-03-061742-1, but I can't seem to find the others... Thanks in advance! -Ben
Re: [9fans] off topic: manual sets
Slightly off topic (of this thread), but I'm looking for troff sources of 8th, 9th, 10th and Plan 9 1st Editions to complete the man page collections at http://man.cat-v.org If anyone knows where I can find copies of any of those, I would be most grateful. uriel On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 6:13 PM, Benjamin Huntsmanbhunts...@mail2.cu-portland.edu wrote: Sorry for the off-topic post, but I'm striking out on google, and I'm virtually certain that someone here will know... Does anyone happen to have the ISBN's for the 7th Edition manual set? Volume I is 0-03-061742-1, but I can't seem to find the others... Thanks in advance! -Ben
Re: [9fans] Someone let the domain go
It might be worth trying to get control back, I think you can do that for domain squatters that violate trademarks, as is clearly the case here. uriel On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 10:58 AM, mahtmattmob...@proweb.co.uk wrote: Uriel wrote: Likely Google juice, there are still plenty of high-rank links pointing there lying around the net. That's how I found it, someone asked about InfernoSpaces and I ended up here http://ai.ijs.si/mezi/agents/agents.html
Re: [9fans] Someone let the domain go
On Mon, Jul 27, 2009 at 1:41 PM, C H Forsythfors...@vitanuova.com wrote: I've no idea why the current owners of that domain name bother to keep it registered. Perhaps there's a little back story there; I don't know. Likely Google juice, there are still plenty of high-rank links pointing there lying around the net. That and probably the amount of mistaken ad clicks are enough to cover their registration fees, so why would they let it go? uriel -- Forwarded message -- From: aku...@mail.nanosouffle.net To: 9f...@9fans.net Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 19:08:08 -0700 Subject: Re: [9fans] Someone let the domain go Yes, apparently as far back as March/April of 2001. don't ask me why I know ak
Re: [9fans] plan9port behind corporate firewall with no DNS or port access
Why not run inferno (or 9vx) on your home machine, export /net on port 80, mount it from work using inferno again, and you are out. If your work firewall proxies port 80, then things get trickier, you could mount sources on the home inferno instance, and then export it using mjl's httpd as a read-only http 'tree'. uriel On Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 10:12 AM, Steve Simonst...@quintile.net wrote: There are several places which have readonly versions of sources available via http, alternatively there is a socks client or even htfilefs, the former uses the SOCKS protocol to tunnel through the firewall. htfilefs mounts a remote ISO image (like the plan9 nightly build iso) over an http connection and expands it as a hierarchy. You could probably write some tunneling software to run on your home machine and work machine using http in between, but your corperate IT department might not see the funny side of such practices... -Steve
Re: [9fans] plan9port tools speed
My bet is on file system performance. Where did the data come from? 9vx is also much faster, even if binaries are identical, because fossil is such a dog. uriel P.S.: In my experience with werc ( http://werc.cat-v.org ) statically linking p9p tools further increases performance considerably, p9p tools are also insanely faster than gnu tools. On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 10:36 AM, Lorenzo Bollalbo...@gmail.com wrote: Hi all, I've just installed the plan9port as described here (http://swtch.com/plan9port/man/man1/install.html) on a debian box. I was comparing the speed of some commands between the plan9 and the GNU version, and I get consistently poorer results for the plan9 ones. 'grep' for example, is at least twice as slow as its GNU counterpart. Moreover, the executables in plan9/bin are bigger. Again, plan9's 'grep' is 40% bigger: $ ll /bin/grep /usr/local/plan9/bin/grep -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 100500 2009-03-28 22:06 /bin/grep -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 141512 2009-07-24 09:06 /usr/local/plan9/bin/grep Is it expected? Why? Should I re-compile the plan9port with some optimization switches? How? Thanks! L.
Re: [9fans] Question about Plan9 project
On Sat, Jul 18, 2009 at 6:25 PM, Anthony Soraceano...@gmail.com wrote: Plan 9 is an open source project The Plan 9 code base (at least the released parts of it) is open source. Plan 9 is *not* an open source project, it can hardly be called a project even: There is no release management, there is no development process, there is no way to know what anyone is working on, no way to have any idea of what changes and features to expect in the future or when, or when any given bug might be fixed, or even a bug database for that matter, nor a way to know what changes have been made or why (other than computing your own diffs based on past snapshots). So you are on your own, you can take the code (while the site happens to be up, or from a mirror), do whatever you like with it, but that is all there is and all anyone can count on. uriel ; as such, you get at least the same baseline guarantees about its longevity as every open source project enjoys: as long as someone's interested, work can continue. there are still Bell Labs staff who work on Plan 9, although i don't believe they're working on it for its own sake (at least not officially). i don't believe ALU has made any sort of corporate commitment to the OS, that's true. the longevity of any open source OS is based on the community surrounding it; this is as true for Plan 9 as it is for Linux and most of the BSDs (and various other things). our community is way smaller than those, but my sense is we're stronger in many ways than we've been for most of the OS's life (we've got less Bell Labs involvement than we did for the first half, but a broader range of contributors). Plan 9 ships in at least one commercial product, which wasn't true for most of its life (i can only think of those 2e-based video systems from earlier; anyone else?), and is used in some really large research projects by people outside the Labs. i, at least, would be interested to know more about what the specific concerns are. that is, is it about availability, future evolution, commercial support, or something else? anthony
Re: [9fans] plan9.bell-labs.com down
On Fri, Jul 17, 2009 at 11:08 PM, J.R. Maurojrm8...@gmail.com wrote: Seriously, we're lucky to have sources /at all/. Instead of complaining, maybe the most concerned people should volunteer their time to help maintain sources, or put up mirrors of their own. Seriously, but I can't let this nonsense go unanswered once again. We'd be even luckier if people like you would stop spewing such obvious bullshit. We are not lucky to have an insanely unreliable sources / website that simply discredits the project and confuses and misleads prospective users and developers. And stop the totally false condescending 'you should volunteer to contribute' nonsense, because *many* people have offered their help, and help is not welcome, so before repeating such crap, maybe you could bother to at least point out how people are supposedly even able to help. There is a reason people have setup mirrors of various parts of the site and sources ( http://doc.cat-v.org/plan_9/ http://man.cat-v.org/plan_9/ http://9grid.es/index.html?item=mir and many others) because they tried to help, and gave up and simply setup their own thing (in some cases after years of exasperation and false hopes that the situation would improve). So, can we please move on, forget about plan9.bell-labs.com, and simply pretend it doesn't exist? It will save people much wasted time, frustrations and misunderstandings, and it will improve my health considerably (but I suspect a few people would not mind if my health got rid my annoying comments, some Lisp-heads have been celebrating the demise of Erik Naggum...). Thanks uriel
Re: [9fans] plan9.bell-labs.com down
On Sat, Jul 18, 2009 at 12:55 AM, John Florenslawmas...@gmail.com wrote: I seem to remember that you were offered the opportunity to take over sources, since you can obviously run it much better. What? When? Where? What happened to that? Maybe you can tell me, as you seem to know much better than me what has been offered (and by who?!?!). I guess it's easier to bitch and be the rebel, rather than becoming the man and actually being responsible for the proper maintenance of the system. I take responsibility for the systems I have control over, which so far nobody has had any complaints about (if somebody has any complaints or suggestions, I would *love* to hear them and will do my very best to address them), and I have put a considerable amount of effort on, specially given that nobody has ever paid me anything to work on Plan 9 or anything related to it, and I don't go around screaming about how grateful and lucky the universe is that I'm capable of running a damned stupid web server. I very doubt I'm the right person to take care of plan9.bell-labs.com, and doubt much more whatever whoever controls it would want me to take it over, but if your claims by some cosmic miracle happen to be true, I'd be happy to help out in any way I can. Maybe you can tell us what *you* have done to help Plan 9? Or is your greatest contribution to act all obnoxious and condescending towards people that despite their limited and flawed abilities have tried very hard to do their best to make Plan 9 and related technologies successful and keep them from dying in total irrelevancy? One of my many flaws is that my memory is very bad, so maybe I'm forgetting what you have done... uriel
Re: [9fans] plan9.bell-labs.com down
On Sat, Jul 18, 2009 at 1:23 AM, Urielurie...@gmail.com wrote: [...] Maybe you can tell us what *you* have done to help Plan 9? Or is your greatest contribution to act all obnoxious and condescending towards people that despite their limited and flawed abilities have tried very hard to do their best to make Plan 9 and related technologies successful and keep them from dying in total irrelevancy? One of my many flaws is that my memory is very bad, so maybe I'm forgetting what you have done... uriel Disregard this, my memory does totally suck, and I just have been reminded by others of your considerable and respectable contributions, forgive my unjustified obnoxious comment. And my apologies to 9fans for this unwarranted attack. uriel
Re: [9fans] plan9.bell-labs.com down
On Sat, Jul 18, 2009 at 1:07 AM, David Leimbachleim...@gmail.com wrote: I for one am quite grateful for the sources machine. My guess is if we didn't have it, we'd have to create a grid based contrib, and we'd probably have to have some kind of 9grid based registry to find everyone's contributions. I'm not sure how this would work out, perhaps something along the lines of http://9gridchan.org But in any case it would be an improvement over the current situation where people that asks for a sources account spend months and months twiddling their thumbs, thinking that for some horrible reason the people that run sources hate them, and that it is pointless to try to contribute to Plan 9 (various people have told me of their worries that perhaps they were not 'qualified' to have a sources account and that perhaps that was why their requests were being ignored, and I had to explain to them that, hell, if I had a sources account, *anyone* no matter how stupid or incompetent should be allowed to have one, not to mean they were either stupid or incompetent, they were highly qualified and motivated people that were interested in contributing their work, and that were feeling directly shunned and unwelcome). uriel
Re: [9fans] plan9.bell-labs.com down
Werc is hardly a contribution worth mentioning (just a bunch of rc script after all!), but some of us have put much blood, sweat and tears in trying to make Plan 9 successful and save it from eternal oblivion, and it is frustrating when people say 'you have no right to complain', *everyone* has a right(even a duty!) to complain, and complaints should be both welcome and heed if Plan 9 (or any project) is to be successful. Peace uriel P.S.: I got werc to work with a very simple 'magic' wrapper rc script (I'm sure russ' cgi.c is a much better solution though, but wanted something that would work with plain httpd out fo the box): http://werc.cat-v.org/docs/web_server_setup/plan_9_httpd On Sat, Jul 18, 2009 at 1:43 AM, John Florenslawmas...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Jul 17, 2009 at 4:28 PM, Urielurie...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Jul 18, 2009 at 1:23 AM, Urielurie...@gmail.com wrote: [...] Maybe you can tell us what *you* have done to help Plan 9? Or is your greatest contribution to act all obnoxious and condescending towards people that despite their limited and flawed abilities have tried very hard to do their best to make Plan 9 and related technologies successful and keep them from dying in total irrelevancy? One of my many flaws is that my memory is very bad, so maybe I'm forgetting what you have done... uriel Disregard this, my memory does totally suck, and I just have been reminded by others of your considerable and respectable contributions, forgive my unjustified obnoxious comment. And my apologies to 9fans for this unwarranted attack. uriel I appreciate this. In turn, I must acknowledge the nice work on werc, which I've been meaning to take a shot at when I can get around to installing Pegasus. John -- I've tried programming Ruby on Rails, following TechCrunch in my RSS reader, and drinking absinthe. It doesn't work. I'm going back to C, Hunter S. Thompson, and cheap whiskey. -- Ted Dziuba
Re: [9fans] building plan9port: arch spec, arm vs armv5tel
What about using a public hg repo and letting others pick what changes they are interested in? uriel On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 3:03 AM, J.R. Maurojrm8...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 8:06 PM, Russ Coxr...@swtch.com wrote: Should we put patches here, too? Yes. I'd like plan9port-dev to have all the discussion of plan9port development and problems. There's a different story for patches that is still not quite complete, but it's a start. Look for upload.py in http://groups.google.com/group/plan9port-dev/t/a1b7f0123e261012 Russ Ok, I sent the patch to the mailing list -- I have a lot of local modifications that shouldn't be published, I don't know if upload.py would try to send them.
Re: [9fans] Plan9 as an everyday OS
With which ac97 driver? uriel On Sat, Jul 11, 2009 at 12:13 PM, sqweeksqw...@gmail.com wrote: lies! we had ac97 working on the t23 at IWP-Bondi! -sqweek 2009/7/11 cinap_len...@gmx.de: usb audio... havnt tried it with ac97 on my t23 yet. -- cinap -- Forwarded message -- From: j...@csplan9.rit.edu To: 9f...@9fans.net Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 18:01:35 -0400 Subject: Re: [9fans] Plan9 as an everyday OS had no success with mplayer yet because of lacking mmx support. got ffmpeg to compile (without mmx/sse) and play on linuxemu, but it was too slow on my 1 ghz via machine. -- cinap Whare are you using for an audio device on Plan 9? The AC97 driver? Or did you buy a USB audio thing? John
Re: [9fans] v9fs question
Using sqweek's 9mount is strongly recommended if you are using v9fs, not only it deals with the silly and deficient linux mount command (which somebody should submit a patch for some day I guess if we want to be taken seriously as an nfs replacement), but it also hides the ever changing v9fs mount flags under a more consistent and clear interface. The ability to mount and unmount 9p file servers without being root is just a great extra. http://sqweek.dnsdojo.org/code/9mount/ uriel P.S.: Oh, and I think debian even packages 9mount! On Sat, Jul 11, 2009 at 10:03 PM, J.R. Maurojrm8...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Jul 11, 2009 at 3:03 PM, Tim Newshamnews...@lava.net wrote: On Sat, 11 Jul 2009, Eric Van Hensbergen wrote: Hmmm, that's really new behavior-- never used to fail without mount helper. Can you give the exact error message? # strace -o trace.txt mount -t 9p thenewsh.com /mnt Linux doesn't do resolution for you, you have to give raw ip addresses. Maybe not the problem, but worth pointing out. mount: Protocol not supported Trace.txt is attached with full details. I've tried several variants, such as thenewsh.com:/path with similar results. On Jul 11, 2009, at 1:46 PM, Tim Newsham news...@lava.net wrote: The documentation in the linux kernel says you merely mount -t 9p ipaddress /mntpoint this fails on my system since /sbin/mount tries to execute /sbin/mount.9p and fails. Am I supposed to have an /sbin/mount.9p? (Anyone know which ubunutu package should have this? If not, where I might find sources? Ironic since Ubuntu came with the 9p kernel module) Or should I be using a different mount program for the purpose? The linux Documentation/filesystems/9p.txt should probably be updated with more details, either way. Tim Newsham http://www.thenewsh.com/~newsham/ Tim Newsham http://www.thenewsh.com/~newsham/
Re: [9fans] Google finally announces their lightweight OS
On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 11:02 AM, Richard Miller9f...@hamnavoe.com wrote: The software architecture is simple - Google Chrome running within a new windowing system on top of a Linux kernel. It says linux kernel with no mention of multi-gigabyes of linux libraries and commands. The optimistic interpretation is that they've rediscovered Ron's idea of borrowing a linux kernel as a minimal (sic) device driver layer to put a sensible OS on top of, and throwing everything else away. You can be sure we wont be so lucky. A huge amount of gnu/gnome guck is assured. uriel
Re: [9fans] Google finally announces their lightweight OS
On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 11:41 AM, Richard Miller9f...@hamnavoe.com wrote: But if it is just for a terminal, there is a lot of drivers you don't need. (Well, the video card is generally not the easier to correctly drive...) Exactly. And wi-fi. And ethernet if it's a cheap broadcom chip. And sound if it's not usb. And bluetooth so you can use your phone as a modem. And so on. And C++ and Java and Flash and (C++ is assured, given that Chrome itself is all C++) uriel
Re: [9fans] Google finally announces their lightweight OS
My evidence is familiarity with the garbage chrome depends on, you can expect Cairo, gtk/glib, dbus and the rest of the freedesktop.org 'standard' crap pile at the very least. And they will need to do flash somehow, so I would not be surprised if 'window system' in this context simply means 'window manager' to keep compatibility with all the plugins, input methods, font management and other junk that X provides. I could be wrong, but I have not seen any evidence that could contradict any of this. uriel On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 12:40 PM, Richard Miller9f...@hamnavoe.com wrote: You can be sure we wont be so lucky. A huge amount of gnu/gnome guck is assured. Your evidence? a new windowing system doesn't sound like gnome to me.
Re: [9fans] Google finally announces their lightweight OS
On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 9:56 PM, Devon H. O'Delldevon.od...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/7/8 Uriel urie...@gmail.com: On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 6:56 PM, Devon H. O'Delldevon.od...@gmail.com wrote: I don't think so. We already have IPv6 support and it's not that bad. Having more drivers and supported commodity architectures would be a good thing. I'd love to do this, but I don't think anybody's going to match my salary to port drivers, do ACPI, add amd64 support for workstations, etc. ACPI will never, ever, ever happen, so people better get over it (and if anyone is naive enough to waste their time trying, it will end up as a useless atrocious mess that wont boot even in a 100th of the systems out there, much less suspend or do anything useful). ACPI support doesn't need to suspend or do thermal zones. It just needs to be able to read the ADT and get MP / interrupt routing table information. This is doable. Have you ever read any of the ACPI spec? I have. The spec doesn't matter much, given that most BIOS out there totally ignore it. As for amd64, it is already done, we are just not worthy to have access to it. Without this getting into a holy war, what Geoff told me was that the amd64 work was for headless CPU servers, which is only mildly useful to me anyway. If it was released perhaps somebody would add the missing drivers, who knows... As things stand, we will never know. uriel
Re: [9fans] Guide to using Acme effectively?
Thanks for the info! I had been wondering about this for many years. And what of ^A and ^E? I have heard them being credited to Emacs, but people believes so many silly things this days... Peace uriel On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 7:39 AM, Rob Pikerobp...@gmail.com wrote: I believe ^H ^W ^U date back at least to TENEX. -rob
Re: [9fans] 9p on Yeeloong (gNewSense Linux)
The standard Unix mount command sucks (but then, so does v9fs, but that is another story), use sqweek's wonderful 9mount command that will make your life much less miserable in the dark world of Linux: http://sqweek.dnsdojo.org/code/9mount/ Peace uriel On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 6:55 AM, lu...@proxima.alt.za wrote: The Yeeloong is a Chinese netbook http://lemote.com/ based on a MIPS cpu. My eventual target is to port Plan 9 to it and on the way there I have a tentative version of P9P running on it without any troublesome issues. I can't however get 9P working. The protocol module can be installed, but mount(8) doesn't recognise 9p as a mount type. I don't have the entire sources to gNewSense available and I'm not sure what I should be looking for. I have successfully compiled a 64-bit Linux kernel: Linux speckle.phyrql.alt.za 2.6.30 #10 Sun Jun 28 13:28:36 SAST 2009 mips64 GNU/Linux from the sources released by Lemote. Suggestions? ++L
Re: [9fans] 9p on Yeeloong (gNewSense Linux)
Er, that was meant to be the standard *Lunix* mount command. uriel On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 1:33 PM, Urielurie...@gmail.com wrote: The standard Unix mount command sucks (but then, so does v9fs, but that is another story), use sqweek's wonderful 9mount command that will make your life much less miserable in the dark world of Linux: http://sqweek.dnsdojo.org/code/9mount/ Peace uriel On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 6:55 AM, lu...@proxima.alt.za wrote: The Yeeloong is a Chinese netbook http://lemote.com/ based on a MIPS cpu. My eventual target is to port Plan 9 to it and on the way there I have a tentative version of P9P running on it without any troublesome issues. I can't however get 9P working. The protocol module can be installed, but mount(8) doesn't recognise 9p as a mount type. I don't have the entire sources to gNewSense available and I'm not sure what I should be looking for. I have successfully compiled a 64-bit Linux kernel: Linux speckle.phyrql.alt.za 2.6.30 #10 Sun Jun 28 13:28:36 SAST 2009 mips64 GNU/Linux from the sources released by Lemote. Suggestions? ++L
Re: [9fans] Guide to using Acme effectively?
I have a weird love-hate relationship with keybindings in Emacs. That is, I wish they were slightly more Unix-ized instead of whatever arbitrary junk they decided on back in the ITS days. Ctrl-U should delete from your cursor to the start of the line, and Ctrl-H should do a backspace, not open Help! I have been so annoyed by how various programs mess up the traditional Unix text editing keyboard shortcuts that I have started to document how to bring them back: http://unix-kb.cat-v.org I specially hate the trend to map ^W to closing the current window, I'm happily editing some text, make a typo or change my mind about the last word, press ^W, and pooff, all my work is gone. *arggg*. Anyway, hope people finds it useful, and please send me any extra info on how to implement/configure/restore the standard Unix behavior in any other environments and apps. I also would be interested in hearing more details on the exact origins of ^H ^W and ^U. Now back to your usual 9fans schedule, enjoy your keyboard vs. mouse flame uriel P.S.: I even recently wrote a Google Chrome extension to implement the Unix text editing keyboard shortcuts in web pages, it works fairly well so far: http://repo.cat-v.org/burning_chrome/hosaka/ next task is implementing acme-like mouse chording ;) The ^H problem is especially annoying on my Slackware box, where I apparently can't hit the Backspace key in console-mode Emacs or else I'll open the help window. Still, emacs makes for a decent dev environment (it's where I write most of my Unix code) and if I ever got motivated enough, it's nice that it has a fully-featured Lisp environment for extending stuff. John -- I've tried programming Ruby on Rails, following TechCrunch in my RSS reader, and drinking absinthe. It doesn't work. I'm going back to C, Hunter S. Thompson, and cheap whiskey. -- Ted Dziuba
Re: [9fans] Guide to using Acme effectively?
On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 5:26 AM, Russ Coxr...@swtch.com wrote:
Anyway, hope people finds it useful, and please send me any extra info
on how to implement/configure/restore the standard Unix behavior in
any other environments and apps.
On a Mac:
mkdir -p $HOME/Library/KeyBindings
cat $HOME/Library/KeyBindings EOF
{
^u = deleteToBeginningOfLine:;
^w = deleteWordBackward:;
}
EOF
will make ^U and ^W work across all applications.
Awesome! I added it to http://unix-kb.cat-v.org/OSX
Thanks!
P.S.: I even recently wrote a Google Chrome extension to implement the
Unix text editing keyboard shortcuts in web pages, it works fairly
well so far: http://repo.cat-v.org/burning_chrome/hosaka/ next task is
implementing acme-like mouse chording ;)
Neat. If you could make the tab key actually generate
a tab character, that would be fantastic.
Ah, that is a good one, I think it should be possible, I will try to
get it for the next version (need to update for the new extension
packaging format anyway).
I do override the extremely annoying mapping of backspace to the back
button when a text field is not focused, which is also extremely
frustrating when you hit it by mistake and your current page (often
with all text) is lost.
Oh, and note that unfortunately due to current limitations in the
Chrome extensions API, this changes only apply to text fields in the
page, not to the url bar :(
uriel
Russ
[9fans] Audio recordings from a couple of IWP9 talks.
A while ago I got around publishing the recordings of a couple of talks from last year's IWP9, unfortunately due to my general laziness and incompetence only a handful of talks could be recorded. Fortunately one of the recorded talks was Sape's semaphores talk, which was absolutely excellent. Noah's talk was also great. Get the MP3s at: http://iwp9.cat-v.org/2008/audio/ I have recordings of the lighting talks somewhere, but I can't remember where I put them, will publish them later. Thanks to squeek for doing the tedious audio editing/conversion! And thanks also of course to the speakers and workshop organizers. Enjoy uriel P.S.: I also have collected photos taken by various people at: http://iwp9.cat-v.org/2008/photos/ if you have photos that you would like added to collection just send them to me.
Re: [9fans] sources down?
Warning, posting gratuitous obnoxious condescending comments is counter-productive. Complaining about things on the other hand, it is helpful, specially when certain people insist in being in denial of certain problems. Also note that many people have offered to help, and help is clearly not welcome. If you expect people to contribute to Plan 9 on their copious spare time while they are being treated with this kind of contempt, good luck to you, you are going to need it. Thank you uriel On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 6:51 PM, ron minnich rminn...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 9:34 AM, Rudolf Sykora rudolf.syk...@gmail.com wrote: (why does this happen SO OFTEN?) warning: complaining about something you get for free is counter-productive. Unless, of course, you are also offering to help in some way. ron
Re: [9fans] rc break
Ah, very cool, break is one of the few things I have missed in rc some times. What do you think of adding return? I have wanted it a few times and Rob seems to think it makes sense to add it: http://9fans.net/archive/2003/03/44 Thanks! uriel On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 3:52 AM, erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.net wrote: i put a freshed copy of rc with a break statement up on sources. it also has history and allows newlines within lists like so x=(a b c ) there's also a printenv function. which does not print the environment, but rather rc's picture of the environment in the same format as whatis. this doesn't seem as useful as it once did. /n/sources/contrib/quanstro/src/futharc - erik
[9fans] Manual pages and and old docs
As the latest addition to http://cat-v.org I have built a manual page web repository for both reference and historical research purposes at: http://man.cat-v.org So far it includes Inferno, Plan 9 from User Space, Plan 9 2nd and 4th editions manual pages. (The differences between 3rd and 4th editions seemed minor enough to not justify adding 3rd, but if somebody wants me to add it I will be happy to do so.) I would love to add Plan 9 1st Edition and Unix 8th, 9th, and 10th, so if anyone has access to the troff source of any of those and would like to share it I would be very happy if they can email it to me or tell me where I could find it. The source for the app that displays the manual pages can be found as part of the standard werc distribution at http://werc.cat-v.org under apps/wman/, patches, bug reports and suggestions are very welcome too ;) Peace uriel
Re: [9fans] web server
On Sun, Apr 26, 2009 at 11:59 PM, Roman V. Shaposhnik r...@sun.com wrote: On Fri, 2009-04-17 at 12:54 +0100, maht wrote: How difficult would it be to use rails or merb in plan9? Is it feasible? Not Rails or merb or anything non Plan 9 but a few of us are building an rc shell based system that works anywhere CGI and Plan 9 / plan9port is available. http://werc.cat-v.org/ I was not aware of werc. Is there a good doc for it? Besides http://werc.cat-v.org/docs/ the included README and the source should be helpful (there is not much code there, and should be mostly self-documenting). Thanks, Roman. P.S. So far it seems that werc wouldn't be able to manage highly dynamic and volatile URI hierarchies as long as it Actually it does, for example all the URLs in http://man.cat-v.org are 'synthetically' generated on the fly. is run under anything but Plan9. Ironically it doesn't seem to run there. It does run under any CGI environment, there are various ways to provide a CGI environment in Plan 9. uriel
Re: [9fans] Help for home user discovering Plan 9
We can't tell you who uses Plan 9, because it is a secret and they don't want anyone to learn about their secret competitive advantage. /sarcasm (But still sadly true.) uriel On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 12:41 PM, Balwinder S Dheeman bdhee...@gmail.com wrote: On 04/18/2009 01:02 AM, Gorka Guardiola wrote: On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 3:14 PM, Balwinder S Dheeman bdhee...@gmail.com wrote: Please set aside rare cases and let us know who except for the students, teachers and, or researchers uses Plan9 and, or Inferno in the offices, homes and, or cafes and for what? The Plan9 project started in 1980, took around 9 years to be solid enough to be usable and that too by the internal and, or lab people [http://plan9.bell-labs.com/sys/doc/9.html] only. Whereas, the FreeBSD and, or Linux (though not an OS or Unix variant in a sense) came into existence later in 1993 and 1991 respectively are more popular among any other variants of Unix. That is the difference between coming up with a design an rethinking the system and just copying one and porting software already written. Linux started mostly using all the gnu stuff and copied all the design from already existing Unix things. That of course takes less than rethinking everything carefully from scratch. For example UTF. Among other things. That said what is the points of this discussions?. Use whatever you want and have fun. I use 4 or 5 operating systems for different things. One of them is Plan 9. Not only for teaching but as infrastructure For example this is the CMS for our courses: http://lsub.org/magic/group?o=ig=c And we ran several labs which runs diskless for teaching and so. This infrastructure serves hundreds of students. I can even have 100 computers running diskless with students with daily automatic incremental backups (venti) using the CMS (yes, with abaco) and compiling and running programs at the same time against one file server. Try that with *any* other operating system (and our hardware infrastructure). Then again, that may not be solid enough for you. I happen to work at a University, sorry. I also run Mac OS and use it for web browsing. Windows for several devices (like a USB sniffer) which I don't have drivers nor I do I feel like writing. Linux in my illiad ebook. And inferno/octopus for integrating all this stuff into a usable environment. And some time even others. If Plan 9 is not useful for you nor you get how it can be, good, don't use it. For me it is. Again, but that's only a rare case, sorry. I understand your sentiments well, because I also worked as a lecturer for about 4 years and I managed to setup such an environment based on Linux systems there; that's not a production deployment for any commercial and, or industrial use cases. Let me repeat that the question is/was, Who uses Plan9 in the Offices, homes and, or cafes for commercial and, or industrial application. I'm not against using, spreading, technology and, or philosophy behind Plan9, but am curious to know some solid example cases; no doubt yours is one such case though again only educational and, or research related. Please don't tell/dictate me what I should and, or should't I use. -- Balwinder S bdheeman Dheeman Registered Linux User: #229709 Anu'z li...@home (Unix Shoppe) Machines: #168573, 170593, 259192 Chandigarh, UT, 160062, India Plan9, T2, Arch/Debian/FreeBSD/XP Home: http://cto.homelinux.net/~bsd/ Visit: http://counter.li.org/
Re: [9fans] Plan9 - the next 20 years
On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 4:14 AM, Skip Tavakkolian 9...@9netics.com wrote: ericvh stated it better in the FAWN thread. choosing the abstraction that makes the resulting environments have required attributes (reliable, consistent, easy, etc.) will be the trick. i believe with the current state of the Internet -- e.g. lack of speed and security -- service abstraction is the right level of distributedness. presenting the services as file hierarchy makes sense; 9p is efficient 9p is efficient as long as your latency is 30ms uriel and so the plan9 approach still feels like the right path to cloud computing. On Sun, Apr 19, 2009 at 12:12 AM, Skip Tavakkolian 9...@9netics.com wrote: Well, in the octopus you have a fixed part, the pc, but all other machines come and go. The feeling is very much that your stuff is in the cloud. i was going to mention this. to me the current view of cloud computing as evidence by papers like this[1] are basically hardware infrastructure capable of running vm pools each of which would do exactly what a dedicated server would do. the main benefits being low administration cost and elasticity. networking, authentication and authorization remain as they are now. they are still not addressing what octopus and rangboom are trying to address: how to seamlessly and automatically make resources accessible. if you read what ken said it appears to be this view of cloud computing; he said some framework to allow many loosely-coupled Plan9 systems to emulate a single system that would be larger and more reliable. in all virtualization systems i've seen the vm has to be smaller than the environment it runs on. if vmware or xen were ever to give you a vm that was larger than any given real machine it ran on, they'd have to solve the same problem. I'm not sure a single system image is any better in the long run than Distributed Shared Memory. Both have issues of locality, where the abstraction that gives you the view of a single machine hurts your ability to account for the lack of locality. In other words, I think applications should show a single system image but maybe not programming models. I'm not 100% sure what I mean by that actually, but it's sort of an intuitive feeling. [1] http://www.eecs.berkeley.edu/Pubs/TechRpts/2009/EECS-2009-28.pdf
Re: [9fans] web server
While I think SQL *really* sucks (besides smelling too much of COBOL, it pretends to be relational when it is not), that was not my point, and I agree with you that relational databases don't store objects, and that relational databases do have valid uses that are sadly often overlooked (maybe this wouldn't be the case if they didn't keep adding 'features' to store XML 'objects' in them and other such abominations). My criticism was directed at how they are actually used in pretty much every web 'framework' under the sun: with some hideously messy ORM layer, they plug round Objects down the square db tables, and all of it to write applications which really are representing files (accessed over HTTP). It is not uncommon to see people modeling with Objects file hierarchies that then they go and store into a relational database. So by using files to store and model data not only avoids having to map a fs-like interface to a table oriented one, but the object oriented convolution in between. And that is short is what allows you to write a blog engine in three lines of rc, because rc and the rest of the toolkit that comes with it are designed to work on and with files and file paths. uriel On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 3:22 PM, erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.net wrote: On Fri Apr 17 08:33:12 EDT 2009, urie...@gmail.com wrote: And then you would need some hideous SQL database. As ken said: we have persistent objects, they are called files; and that is what werc uses. i feel compelled to defend one of my favorite quotes of all time from misapplication. i'm sure that werc is well-engineered for its domain, but the mistake i see is generalizing this into sql sucks. just as a point of pedantry, in a standard sql database, there are no objects. sql does not suck. here's why. sql databases are really good at keeping relationships between rows (here's the important part) with no locking visible to the client. even better in the face of non-static requirements, more relationships can be added on the fly. it's hard to do this with flat files, and file-based locking (like upas does for mbox files) is pretty tricky. - erik
Re: [9fans] web server
On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 2:45 PM, Rudolf Sykora rudolf.syk...@gmail.com wrote: Writing the core of a blog engine in three lines of rc is hard to beat, plus you get the benefit of being able to manipulate and manage all your data using the tools any self respecting Unix user loves. uriel well, I haven't thought about it deeply yet, but what I guess could be a problem with your approach is that many features would have to be somehow implemented first so that it all be useable. I mean e.g. ajax style of page content refresh, session management, perhaps POST method too. Whatever AJAX and sessions are good web development practices is questionable, but in any case werc does provides you with the tools to implement such things if that is what you really want. Werc handles POST just fine, and actually maht just implemented multiple file upload, which I never bothered to do because I never had use for it and thought it would be too hard, apparently didn't take him more than an afternoon to do it. uriel
Re: [9fans] web server
On Sun, Apr 19, 2009 at 12:27 AM, erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.net wrote: While I think SQL *really* sucks (besides smelling too much of COBOL, it pretends to be relational when it is not), your facts here are incorrect. clearly sql is relational, if you take codd's meaning of the term. also sql as a language has nothing to do with cobol. cobol, like fortran, c, java and limbo are all imperitive languges. sql is interesting (and powerful) because it is declarative. you don't tell the database how to do something you tell it what to do. I really didn't want to get into this debate, my point about COBOL was more about the archaic syntax than anything else. As for SQL being relational, C.J. Date and other relational database people beg to differ, but again, it is not something I'm interested in arguing about (and is perhaps a mostly academic argument anyway, although the shortcomings of pretty much all SQL implementations are all too real), but for more info I would recommend http://www.thethirdmanifesto.com/ and http://www.dbdebunk.com I used to really hate relational databases, until I found out that what I had been using all along were really aberrations of the real idea, which is quite neat and interesting. Sort of similar to the process of going from various (l)unixes to Plan 9. Peace uriel
Re: [9fans] web server
So, how hard is it to get werc running on real Plan 9? The readme was for Plan 9 Ports last time I checked. Shouldn't be hard, aside from a couple of paths that might need fixing (perhaps using bind(1) will do), it should run out of the box. The only issue is that it expects to run as a CGI, so you will need to either use pegasus or some adapter for the standard httpd, there is a fancy one in russ' contrib dir, but a shell script that sets the two or three CGI vars werc uses should probably be enough, and I think somebody did just that. Hopefully somebody will write a more detailed howto, patches and docs welcome ;) Peace uriel
Re: [9fans] web server
How difficult would it be to use rails or merb in plan9? Is it feasible? Very difficult. No, not feasible. You would have to port Ruby. And then possibly rails, too. Plan 9 isn't UNIX, or UNIX-like, or POSIX (or POSIX-like). APE helps with some stuff, but not all the way. And then you would need some hideous SQL database. As ken said: we have persistent objects, they are called files; and that is what werc uses. Writing the core of a blog engine in three lines of rc is hard to beat, plus you get the benefit of being able to manipulate and manage all your data using the tools any self respecting Unix user loves. uriel
Re: [9fans] J9P/StyxLib
Actually the GPL doesn't do what you guys claim it to do, it doesn't require people to share back with you changes to your code, it only requires them to release their changes if they *redistribute* their code. Anyway, licenses are an annoyance and a waste of everyone's time and resources. I agree with Alex that the best is Public Domain, or at least BSD/MIT/ISC-style license, which is as close as you can get to Public Domain while retaining copyright. Peace uriel On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 10:46 PM, J.R. Mauro jrm8...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Apr 01, 2009 at 04:42:18PM -0400, J.R. Mauro wrote: On Wed, Apr 01, 2009 at 11:19:08PM +0300, Alex Efros wrote: Hi! On Wed, Apr 01, 2009 at 10:02:04PM +0200, Bernd R. Fix wrote: 2.) You have an OS project with a different, incompatible license and want to include a GPL project or base some work on it. I am sure that this problem occurred many times in the past; maybe there even exists a 'best practice' approach how to deal with this. To be honest: I don't think that the first case is an argument against the GPL - not for me. I am more worried about the second case. So my question to you licensing experts: is there a better license that follows my basic statement (see above) and allows better integration into other OS licenses? If I have a better license model, I am certainly willing to change to it. For libraries it usually solved using LGPL instead of GPL. P.S. As for me, I'd like to try to make world a little better, and don't bother much about reusing my code in commercial projects or even removing my name from sources - so I use Public Domain for all my applications and libraries. GPL is a virus, designed to war against commercial software. That's not my war. Though this is certainly rms's intention, I'm not aware of a license that guarantees you get modifications to your source code back, and that is important to me as well. I don't really want people to improve on my ideas without helping me in the process, and there are a lot of people will do just that. So while the forcible sharing of the GPL is kind of fascist, I don't see any other way to have the guarantee that improvements to your code by others are made available to you. -- WBR, Alex. D'oh. I *do* know a license that does this: the Vim License. You aren't forced to distribute source code, but if the original author wants to get it, you have to provide it free of charge. Similar to the GPL, but less nasty and less idealistic.
Re: [9fans] GSOC: Drawterm for the iPhone
On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 6:57 AM, Tharaneedharan Vilwanathan vdhar...@gmail.com wrote: hi, sorry if i have missed any prior discussion, but i would like to mention that i am curious about this effort. to me, iphone (or similar device) seems to be an appropriate device that is small enough to be a portable drawterm device (eventually it could become cheaper too). one can quickly connect it to a TV or a hybrid monitor and get a bigger display. i have tried this before in iphone with acme running in my mac: http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/12/modified-vnc-software-enables-remote-access-on-iphone/ So, was acme usable with a touch screen as input? And does this mean that VNC clients already provide the desired functionality? so in my opinion, this is a good effort. I'm not sure how that conclusion follows from the rest of your email. Can you clarify? Assuming that there are no overwhelming user interface issues (which seems like a huge assumption to me), what actual useful functionality would a drawterm port provide that vnc/ssh doesn't? I would remind people too that Google is going to *pay good money* for this work, so I think it is reasonable to ask how worthy it is. Peace uriel
Re: [9fans] GSOC: Drawterm for the iPhone
On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 4:08 PM, Anthony Sorace ano...@gmail.com wrote: to ron's latest point: seeing it on the G1 would be great, too. but we have a student with an iPhone who's said he'd like to do it, and at least a handful of people here have said they'd like to see it, and have the device. How many people can actually claim that they will for certain use such iphone drawterm? Because the idea of using rio or acme from a touchscreen doesn't seem very practical to me (to put it very mildly). And I'm really curious, can somebody provide a number? Because this requires not just an iphone, but a remote Plan 9 system, plus some hypothetical task that is doable with the given interface (and which is not better accomplished with simply running sshd). Also, a very important question to ask for all GSoC projects is: what is the value of the partial work if the project stalls or GSoC ends before it is finished? And in this case it would be another abandoned dead end. So far I see many people posing very substantive objections, and others saying 'it would be nice' uriel
Re: [9fans] GSOC: Drawterm for the iPhone
On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 10:22 PM, Pietro Gagliardi pietr...@mac.com wrote: A 9vx, p9p or inferno cocoa port is a project that seems fairly I can do one of these; which is the most needed/wanted? Personally I have no preference, any of the three would be great to have, probably the p9p one is the one better tested, in better shape and a better starting point, but I'm mostly guessing. uriel
Re: [9fans] 9P writes for directories
Some of us have been thinking about a 'sane' subset of HTTP plus some conventions, that could reasonably map to 9p. The main issue is the huge amounts of crud in the HTTP spec and how to pick the sensible bits and discard the rest while remaining compatible with existing implementations; the main convention that needs to be added is a way to list directory contents, likely using something not too insane, like JSON. With some thought and care one could come up with a very simple, RESTful, and almost 9p-mappable replacement for the stinking bloated WebDAV and SOAP/XML-RPC abominations. uriel On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 11:05 PM, Roman Shaposhnik r...@sun.com wrote: On Mar 26, 2009, at 1:54 PM, Eric Van Hensbergen wrote: I have thought about that too, but became convinced that POST is more like create (or more like write on a subdirectory -- hence the original question). With the clone operation it is the *opening* of the clone device that provides you with a new fid. In HTTP that would be like getting a redirection on GET. Don't you think? Except that Creates give an ID/path for creation instead of receiving one -- that's the key thing that makes it like clone, the most important bit being that this sort of mechanism avoids collision. I believe we're on the same page, but the wording is not always accurate. Whether or not that is critical depends on how you write your app. I think the main difference here is you are trying to map HTTP syntax to 9P syntax, and I've been thinking of semantics -- an HTTP POST to a subdirectory would equal the opening of a clone file (within that subdirectory), and writing the metadata, Interesting point. I guess it all depends on what is the model for new nodes to be created in the URI tree. In fact, if I were to complete the analogy, then POST to an existing URI (although, nothing really exists in the world of URIs) corresponding to a subdirectory would be, in fact, what you say. A POST/PUT to a non-existing URI could be considered a creation of the named resource in its parent. Although I'm not sure that such a thing should be always allowed. a read on that file would return the ID -- this would be done atomically by the HTTP server to service the POST not as a set of HTTP routines. If you mean PRG (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post/Redirect/Get) then yes. I think the critical aspect from the REST/CRUD perspective is that the POST has to be idempotent Not as per HTTP RFC: http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2616/rfc2616-sec9.html#sec9.5 Outside of the ID bit, why wouldn't create suffice? It would (just as Erik pointed out). I guess I was just looking for symmetry (if POST is really a write(*), it should translate into write independent of whether the URI corresponds to a subdirectory or not) and potential pitfalls that made 9P spec disallow writes on subdirectories (and since nobody can identify any of those -- I'll rest my case and proceed with translating POST into different 9P messages depending on the type of the URI). I don't think the symmetry is worth altering the semantics of the protocol -- its likely more trouble than its worth in the long run. Agreed. Thanks, Roman. P.S. I wonder if there's a general interest in REST from the Plan9 folks. I've seen your blog post on the subject, so there's that. It is actually quite fun to see how things like Google App Engine and http://konstrukt.dk/, etc can reap the same benefits from the elegance of FS-aware design. Could it be that with the right approach (lib9p/libixp plugin for apache?) writing web services could be as much fun as writing filesystems for Plan9?
Re: [9fans] GSOC: Drawterm for the iPhone
Why not Inferno for iPhone or Symbian or Android? If one is going to research multitouch/small-scree GUIs, one will want to write applications, and being able to write apps in Limbo for either platform would be a big win, plus you get all the drawterm functionality for free, and could be the basis of an Octopus port. Porting drawterm is a dead end with very little potential of either learning anything interesting or being useful in the future. uriel On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 1:30 PM, Federico G. Benavento benave...@gmail.com wrote: My personal belief is that this is a really bad, if not dangerous criteria for projects. The goal for gsoc should not be to assign work for stuff 'we need' -- if we need something we should be doing it ourselves. The goal should be to create interesting projects that attract new developers and ideas to the system -- and ones tha this is a bit misleading, if someone wants to explore small screens, multi-touch and whatelse, why not getting a linux phone and starting there? I mean, drawterm for the iphone! why not for symbian? -- Federico G. Benavento
Re: [9fans] GSOC: Drawterm for the iPhone
A 9vx, p9p or inferno cocoa port is a project that seems fairly reasonable and I think everyone (even those that don't use Macs) can agree on (and then if somebody wants they can port it to the other draw users). uriel On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 7:50 PM, andrey mirtchovski mirtchov...@gmail.com wrote: let's rephrase the project. screw the iPhone temporarily (cool as it may be) and do a straight cocoa drawterm rewrite. a cocoa-native drawterm can explore all the functionality of the iphone interface (gestures, etc) and much more, without all the restrictions that apple forces on iPhone developers. the only problem is, without the iPhone tag it just doesn't sound so cool anymore, does it? :)
Re: [9fans] I can not remember if I sent this or not: MIPS-64 (sort
On Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 6:57 PM, Charles Forsyth fors...@terzarima.net wrote: the kernel work is another matter; the essential 64-bit changes have been made, But not released. Maybe the GSoC students can work telepathically on it, that is a skill that will come handy in their future Plan 9 contributions. uriel
Re: [9fans] Strange rc bug for the 9fans bug-squashing squad
But parsing is not the big issue (thanks Charles for sending me a small program that does just that), the issue here is sticking the results in a variable (or variables), Russ' suggestion would work, but only in native Plan 9 and not in p9p. Still, I might be able to hack something up if characters don't get deleted, which seems like a real bug to me. But while I don't like arbitrary limits (specially when I hit them ;)), I can understand that for the sake of simplicity it makes sense to have them and not fall into the 'lets handle every possibility under the sun' dogma. Which makes me wonder, would it be excessive to double the current limit? While 8k is quite ample, 16k would be even more so :) Thanks everyone for all the ideas and suggestions uriel On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 2:25 AM, erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.net wrote: On Tue Mar 17 20:29:50 EDT 2009, urie...@gmail.com wrote: why can't you just let ifs = $newline (formatted to fit your screen) ? Unfortunately that doesn't work in this case, my input is HTTP post data, which is a single line of URL-encoded text which I have to decode into multiple parameters of arbitrary length. why not write a small program to crack the post data. might take ½ an hour, tops. - erik
Re: [9fans] Strange rc bug for the 9fans bug-squashing squad
Thanks Geoff for the prompt explanation, but I'm getting the same
results with ifs=() Not sure why, but I'm not sure I understand the
difference between setting ifs to '' and ().
Thanks again
uriel
On Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 1:40 AM, ge...@plan9.bell-labs.com wrote:
Setting ifs='' defeats rc's tokenisation, so the result
of `{} will be a series of rc `words', each limited to
Wordmax (8192) bytes and with the next byte of the input
stream after each word set to NUL.
Did you perhaps intend to write ifs=(), which has different
meaning?
Re: [9fans] Strange rc bug for the 9fans bug-squashing squad
On Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 11:43 PM, erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.net wrote:
On Tue Mar 17 18:29:14 EDT 2009, urie...@gmail.com wrote:
Thanks martin for your analysis, this makes some sense to me, but as I
pointed out, even setting ifs to () doesn't solve the issue, so it
would be nice to find a solution to this.
Right now having the output of `{} corrupted can be quite inconvenient...
it is unreasonable to expect to be able to generate tokens
that are bigger than 8k.
Well, I would prefer if such limit didn't exist ;) But it doesn't seem
like a totally unreasonable limit either.
however, the '8' should not be dropped.
Yes, this is the critical issue, at least if the tokens are just
split, one can join them up by hand if needed, but as things are now
the data gets corrupted in ways that at least at first are mystifying,
and which are hard to work around.
i would think this small change would be worth
consideration.
I will give it a try when I get a chance, but if it fixes the lost
chars, I'll be happy.
Thanks!
uriel
; diffy -c havefork.c
/n/dump/2009/0317/sys/src/cmd/rc/havefork.c:74,80 - havefork.c:74,80
Xbackq(void)
{
char wd[8193];
- int c;
+ int c, trunc;
char *s, *ewd=wd[8192], *stop;
struct io *f;
var *ifs = vlook(ifs);
/n/dump/2009/0317/sys/src/cmd/rc/havefork.c:105,113 - havefork.c:105,116
while((c = rchr(f))!=EOF){
if(strchr(stop, c) || s==ewd){
if(s!=wd){
+ trunc = s == ewd;
*s='\0';
v = newword(wd, v);
s = wd;
+ if(trunc)
+ *s++ = c;
}
}
else *s++=c;
- erik
