Re: [9fans] Alternative to fine-grained mouse usage?
On Tue, 06 Jul 2021 20:14:03 -0700, "Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM)" wrote: lyndon> Have you thought about lyndon> mounting a server on top of the mouse device that reads the raw lyndon> positioning data and passes up a running average of the last n lyndon> positions? Basically, interpose a low pass filter to help remove lyndon> some of the jitter. I have no idea if it will work -- it just leapt lyndon> to mind as I sit here breadboarding RC audio filters ;-) It's a thought, but I kinda of doubt it'd work in my case. The tremors are irregular and of really widely varying amplitude. Think of trying to filter an AM radio signal, removing noise from many simultaneous lightning storms at various distances. Yes, it does sometimes mean I'm also not able to type, as well, but fortunately it's rarely *that* bad. I'd go for one of those implants that allows direct-from-brain input, but I'm pretty sure the health insurance wouldn't pay for it ;-) Dworkin -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T716c5aa0e2aa8a27-Mc2f98ea8f7f29ec027feaec4 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Alternative to fine-grained mouse usage?
Dworkin Muller writes: > I have physical issues with trying to perform fine-grained mouse > operations (uncontrollable small hand tremors). [ ... ] > So, my question is, are there any viable alternatives for use with Joining the conversation late ... sorry. Have you thought about mounting a server on top of the mouse device that reads the raw positioning data and passes up a running average of the last n positions? Basically, interpose a low pass filter to help remove some of the jitter. I have no idea if it will work -- it just leapt to mind as I sit here breadboarding RC audio filters ;-) --lyndon -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T716c5aa0e2aa8a27-Mf23265176eb945efe8e0fc8b Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Alternative to fine-grained mouse usage?
On Sun, Jul 4, 2021, at 12:19 AM, Dworkin Muller wrote: > On Sat, 03 Jul 2021 22:33:07 +0100, "Ethan Gardener" > wrote: > eekee57> To be honest, it helps that the editor's source code is only > eekee57> about 2.5KB. ;) > > So you're using the Forth environment as your editor, not just using > Forth to drive sam or acme? Correct. The text to be edited is loaded into memory and various words (commands) work on that memory. Obviously, it can't handle extremely large files as Sam and Acme can. Some Forths have a namespace system which can keep the editor's words from conflicting with others. The Forth I use now doesn't have one, but if I had more applications controlled from Forth, I'd want namespacing. One common scheme simply replaces the first-searched word list when you enter the name of another word list (AKA vocabulary). This is typically extended into something complicated; a full vocabulary stack which needs to be managed with care if you don't want to lose most of the language by accident, but I intend to keep it simple. I've written an interactive editor too, but I only really use it for editing tables in overwrite mode. It would be more useful for writing prose, but you can't really do that in 1KB blocks. I actually wrote a command-based text-file editor before I started to use blocks, but its command language was awkward. I didn't really know the language at the time and I had overly high expectations of myself. I'm about ready to try again now. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T716c5aa0e2aa8a27-M5c40e333cc9c6440de1f3fe2 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Alternative to fine-grained mouse usage?
On Sat, 03 Jul 2021 22:33:07 +0100, "Ethan Gardener" wrote: eekee57> To be honest, it helps that the editor's source code is only eekee57> about 2.5KB. ;) So you're using the Forth environment as your editor, not just using Forth to drive sam or acme? Dworkin -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T716c5aa0e2aa8a27-M5551457885bf10192e6f2d5e Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Alternative to fine-grained mouse usage?
On Sat, Jul 3, 2021, at 5:32 PM, silas poulson wrote:
>> On 2 Jul 2021, at 19:06, Ethan Gardener wrote:
>>
>> This reminds me why I switched to Forth: I can program my editor properly
>
> Could you expand on this point?
>
> Vaguely aware of Forth, but no experience with forth editors
Sure. There's a few things.
I like and sometimes make use of the fact that the input language is a full
systems language. I can access all the editor's variables and memory from the
input prompt or from my own code. Sometimes it blows up because Forth has even
fewer safeguards than C, but I soon learned how to avoid the explosions. It
helps that I now use a Forth which displays the stack contents before each
prompt; I do recommend that. All this can be summarized with a little misquote:
"[Forth] does not prevent you doing stupid things because that would also
prevent you doing clever things." ;) Sometimes I wish for type safety, but now
I've learned to do without it, it's fine.
Other than that, I make some use of the data stack: I've written several words
to leave string references on the stack for use by other words, chaining them
together almost like a pipeline. Sam can do things like this so it's not too
new, but I can chain anything I like and easily write new commands. I don't
always chain them on the same line. If there's a memory copy or blank operation
in there, I'll check the parameters look right first. The check doesn't take a
second.
Where Sam executes commands in braces "at the same time," not allowing you to
change the order, I've got full control of the order of execution. In Sam, I
was never successful in changing text with commands in braces. Sam or Acme
would always report something about multiple changes at the same time, and Sam
would corrupt the text a bit. I don't remember exactly what I was trying to do,
but I was sure it would have worked if my commands were executed in order. In
Forth by contrast, there's nothing to get commands out of order. I may not be
working on large files with complex commands any more, but I write sequences of
simple commands all the time.
To be honest, it helps that the editor's source code is only about 2.5KB. ;)
Some of that isn't even editor, it's block indexing and multi-block search, but
I've replaced one and need to replace the other. Actually, I should rewrite the
editor seeing as I don't want my code GPL-licensed and the editor probably is.
("Probably"? There's no license in the editor itself, likely because it's hard
to fit licensing boilerplate into 1KB blocks.)
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Re: [9fans] Alternative to fine-grained mouse usage?
On 2 Jul 2021, at 19:06, Ethan Gardener mailto:eeke...@fastmail.fm>> wrote: This reminds me why I switched to Forth: I can program my editor properly Could you expand on this point? Vaguely aware of Forth, but no experience with forth editors Silas -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T716c5aa0e2aa8a27-Mdb55b296d66f40a958396d89 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Alternative to fine-grained mouse usage?
On Sat, Jul 3, 2021, at 3:29 AM, umbrati...@prosimetrum.com wrote:
> nothing's tying you to sam syntax:
>
> ,|awk '{print NR "\t" $0}'
>
> then undo.
Good points. I used to pipe through other tools often, and very often used to
make temporary changes and undo them. Can't remember specific uses now, but I
remember being very pleased with the temporary-change trick.
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Re: [9fans] Alternative to fine-grained mouse usage?
On Fri, Jul 2, 2021, at 7:54 PM, Silas McCroskey wrote: > > In any case, Plan 9's ed has a nice "browse" command which sam can't match. > > I used to issue "0bn", then just "b" once per page. Or, if you don't want > > line numbers, leave out the "n". > > "+,+20p" does it. Doesn't work near the end of the file, though; not > sure if that can be improved within the same expression or you just > have to know to "+,$p" instead. Good point, I'd forgotten about that. I used to do it or something like it, but hated having to change the expression for the last page, especially when I didn't know the last page was next. > I agree with the camp that considers using line numbers (other than 0) > in sam (and ed, for that matter) to be something of an anti-pattern, > so I stopped letting the lack of 'n' bother me a long time ago. I'm > sure that's not much help for someone who's admitted to giving up on > regex though; you've got me curious how difficult it'd be to add it. Yup. If I was entirely comfortable with regexes, I would never have mentioned line numbers. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T716c5aa0e2aa8a27-M169fdcccbdad2b6c481dfa4b Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Alternative to fine-grained mouse usage?
good luck! -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T716c5aa0e2aa8a27-M5e3fc3dea6ef1fe0563bb972 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Alternative to fine-grained mouse usage?
Thanks folks for all the suggestions and pointers. Now it's just a small matter of putting it all into practice ;-) Dworkin -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T716c5aa0e2aa8a27-Me11ccf659e0e88c10119b85f Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Alternative to fine-grained mouse usage?
nothing's tying you to sam syntax:
,|awk '{print NR "\t" $0}'
then undo.
umbraticus
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Re: [9fans] Alternative to fine-grained mouse usage?
> In any case, Plan 9's ed has a nice "browse" command which sam can't match. I > used to issue "0bn", then just "b" once per page. Or, if you don't want line > numbers, leave out the "n". "+,+20p" does it. Doesn't work near the end of the file, though; not sure if that can be improved within the same expression or you just have to know to "+,$p" instead. I agree with the camp that considers using line numbers (other than 0) in sam (and ed, for that matter) to be something of an anti-pattern, so I stopped letting the lack of 'n' bother me a long time ago. I'm sure that's not much help for someone who's admitted to giving up on regex though; you've got me curious how difficult it'd be to add it. - sam-d -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T716c5aa0e2aa8a27-Mceaed1e19b5399da7fe7634c Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Alternative to fine-grained mouse usage?
On Fri, Jul 2, 2021, at 4:03 PM, silas poulson wrote:
>> On 1 Jul 2021, at 18:48, Ethan Gardener wrote:
>> sam -d can't display line numbers
>
> You can sort of display them via
>
> ,x {
> p
> }
>
> Though it’s ugly and annoyingly can’t apply sam’s regex to remove the
> character locations.
My mail client swallowed the line with the equals sign until I tried to reply.
If that's happening to anyone else, it's on a line on its own between the
opening brace and the p.
It does work, but yeah, it's a bit on the ugly side. I can get line & char
numbers onto the same lines as the text, but only on the ends of the lines
which is even uglier. It's this:
,x/.*/ {
p
}
The regexp selects whole lines without the newlines. Reversing the order of =
and p has no effect.
(This reminds me why I switched to Forth: I can program my editor properly
instead of being constrained by a domain-specific language. But part of the
problem was I couldn't get my head around Sam's C code. It probably didn't help
that I started with terminal-editor communication; that was likely the deep end
of the pool.)
In any case, Plan 9's ed has a nice "browse" command which sam can't match. I
used to issue "0bn", then just "b" once per page. Or, if you don't want line
numbers, leave out the "n".
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Re: [9fans] Alternative to fine-grained mouse usage?
On 1 Jul 2021, at 18:48, Ethan Gardener
mailto:eeke...@fastmail.fm>> wrote:
sam -d can't display line numbers
You can sort of display them via
,x {
p
}
Though it’s ugly and annoyingly can’t apply sam’s regex to remove the character
locations.
Silas
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Re: [9fans] Alternative to fine-grained mouse usage?
I used to have serious CTS issues from using a mouse. Clenching a mouse and fine motor movement became physiologically incompatible actions for me. My simple low cost solution is to have a USB connected Logitech trackball under my right hand (I'm right handed) and a common wheel USB mouse with the optical window taped over under the left hand. Moving the mouse has no effect on the cursor/pointer. So I position the cursor/pointer with my right hand, rolling the trackball, sometimes gingerly. When I have the spot right, I raise my right hand so that the pointer stays put and then click or scroll as required with the left hand. On Thu, 1 Jul 2021 at 11:16, Dworkin Muller wrote: > I have physical issues with trying to perform fine-grained mouse > operations (uncontrollable small hand tremors). The net effect is > that anything more much specific than window selection is difficult > and takes several seconds - pretty much the antithesis of the study > results that showed that editing using the mouse to point to where you > want to type, select text, etc was as efficient as keyboard-driven > edit. To give an idea of the scale of the problem, it's difficult to > get the mouse positioned into the scrollbars or the command bar of > acme windows, let alone point between two specific characters for > inserting new text. > > So, my question is, are there any viable alternatives for use with > Plan9? Throwing special hardware at the problem unfortunately isn't > all that viable mainly due to budgetary issues - all the other > environments I use support keyboard short-cuts for just about > everything, so it's hard to justify spending any significant amount of > money for what is essentially a low-priority hobby. > > If the answer is just to use sam, I can do that, but it doesn't really > help the problem of needing to copy/paste previous commands in > terminal windows, etc. > > Hopefully I'm missing something obvious > > Thanks. > > Dworkin -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T716c5aa0e2aa8a27-M7b4c1723d7b83c3b32784134 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Alternative to fine-grained mouse usage?
9front's sam has additional "^" and "_" commands which make output of
specified commands go into the command window. Loading a rc file with
a bunch of "fn ... {" simplifies things quite a lot in general, see
http://runjimmyrunrunyoufuckerrun.com/rc/s as an example.
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Re: [9fans] Alternative to fine-grained mouse usage?
I used to enjoy Acme, but had to give it up when I no longer had an ergonomic desk. Using the mouse hurt too much. In the way I work, often switching files, Sam's menus are practically worse than Acme. I tried sam -d (command-line only) and ed, but... well, I get in a muddle with regexps. Most people don't, and Plan 9's are more regular than most, so I recommend sam -d. It's a bit cleaner and more powerful than ed. The weakest point in sam -d is still switching files, you have to type whole filenames, but I think if you never use the plumber, you won't have to type any full pathnames. You could also use ed. It's one-file only, but sam -d can't display line numbers, ed can. With a usable text editor, you can write temporary scripts to work around the issue of reissuing commands. For all but the simplest commands, I prefer that way of working to a regular command line. When I needed to write more than Acme/Rio features comfortably allowed, I'd name a temporary script tt or ss or something. If you don't want to make them in your working directory, you'll want a short path for them. Perhaps `bind -bc /tmp/bin /bin` and in sam, `B /bin/tt`. Incidentally, I barely used the scrollbars. I used the up and down arrow keys, home and end, or sometimes if I was in a hurry, page up & page down. I did use the scrollbars for precise pagination when reading plain-text ebooks or 9front commit messages, but I didn't really need to. As for Rio, from looking at your mail, am I right in saying you know how to have the riostart script open windows, and that you can reuse them? I wrote scripts to get the screen size and calculate the figures for the window corners. I don't know where they are now, but they were very short. The only catch is quoting can get funky in this one case of . It's not bad, just some surprising runs of ' every time you need a quote. I'm tired today. I've only just now remembered some other options: There's also a Vim port. I can't remember if it runs in vt(1) or stand-alone. I also can't remember if it's been updated. Perhaps ask in 9front channels, one of the regulars was/is a Vim user. Speaking of vt, if you can find/port/make rlwrap, you could use rc under vt with command history and keyboard editing. These features are also nice with sam -d or ed. (Yes, Plan 9 purists, I was naughty enough to try it. ;) On Thu, Jul 1, 2021, at 2:15 AM, Dworkin Muller wrote: > I have physical issues with trying to perform fine-grained mouse > operations (uncontrollable small hand tremors). The net effect is > that anything more much specific than window selection is difficult > and takes several seconds - pretty much the antithesis of the study > results that showed that editing using the mouse to point to where you > want to type, select text, etc was as efficient as keyboard-driven > edit. To give an idea of the scale of the problem, it's difficult to > get the mouse positioned into the scrollbars or the command bar of > acme windows, let alone point between two specific characters for > inserting new text. > > So, my question is, are there any viable alternatives for use with > Plan9? Throwing special hardware at the problem unfortunately isn't > all that viable mainly due to budgetary issues - all the other > environments I use support keyboard short-cuts for just about > everything, so it's hard to justify spending any significant amount of > money for what is essentially a low-priority hobby. > > If the answer is just to use sam, I can do that, but it doesn't really > help the problem of needing to copy/paste previous commands in > terminal windows, etc. > > Hopefully I'm missing something obvious > > Thanks. > > Dworkin -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T716c5aa0e2aa8a27-M130b45cec16dbc1eaeb15846 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Alternative to fine-grained mouse usage?
If you are looking for a more keyboard driven window management version of rio, sigrid has made some experiments with this here: - https://git.sr.ht/~ft/riow It gives you virtual desktops to move windows around in, by pressing keys, like i3. It features: • virtual desktops • switch between desktops • move windows between desktops • toggle fullscreen on the current window • start a new window • "sticky" programs • toggle "sticky" mode for current window All that with simple shortcuts. Maybe if combined with the sam tricks that umbraticus mentioned and the addition of your own scripts as pointed out by 23hiro you might be able to create an improved user experience for yourself. Quoth Dworkin Muller : > I have physical issues with trying to perform fine-grained mouse > operations (uncontrollable small hand tremors). The net effect is > that anything more much specific than window selection is difficult > and takes several seconds - pretty much the antithesis of the study > results that showed that editing using the mouse to point to where you > want to type, select text, etc was as efficient as keyboard-driven > edit. To give an idea of the scale of the problem, it's difficult to > get the mouse positioned into the scrollbars or the command bar of > acme windows, let alone point between two specific characters for > inserting new text. > > So, my question is, are there any viable alternatives for use with > Plan9? Throwing special hardware at the problem unfortunately isn't > all that viable mainly due to budgetary issues - all the other > environments I use support keyboard short-cuts for just about > everything, so it's hard to justify spending any significant amount of > money for what is essentially a low-priority hobby. > > If the answer is just to use sam, I can do that, but it doesn't really > help the problem of needing to copy/paste previous commands in > terminal windows, etc. > > Hopefully I'm missing something obvious > > Thanks. > > Dworkin -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T716c5aa0e2aa8a27-Mbedcb91b73943c44f64a6e2b Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Alternative to fine-grained mouse usage?
i don't think you're missing anything obvious in terms of acme, it's clearly not made for you. your options are either to modify acme itself and insert keyboard shortcuts, or to ignore acme and try to make as many little scripts as possible, executed from rio terminals. i often feel like i can not justify the time to spend and create scripts for everything, when i can instead use an iterative interactive process of running and editing and then rerunning commands in rio. but given your input problems, i am sure you can not only use this excuse to spend more time on automation, but you'll get rather good at it, too, over time, meaning you will be able to remember more and re-use more of your own commands for many different use cases... at some point you'll have invented your own couple hundred private languages that will require just plain text based input methods. it's very effective, just not very standard and not very acme-like. so yeah, personally i'd chose this: just make more rc scripts, as many as you can :) On 7/1/21, umbrati...@prosimetrum.com wrote: >> taking advantage of Fitts' law in UI interactions > > another fairly standard practice: organise window management > to leave a pixel or two around the edge to allow slamming > mouse to the nearest extremity in order to access rio b3 menu. > > blasphemy: I occasionally wonder how difficult it would be > to implement windows-style Ctrl+←/→ word boundary jumping, > maybe even Shift to select… > > umbraticus -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T716c5aa0e2aa8a27-M2fad8ae63eacb802507bb294 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Alternative to fine-grained mouse usage?
> taking advantage of Fitts' law in UI interactions another fairly standard practice: organise window management to leave a pixel or two around the edge to allow slamming mouse to the nearest extremity in order to access rio b3 menu. blasphemy: I occasionally wonder how difficult it would be to implement windows-style Ctrl+←/→ word boundary jumping, maybe even Shift to select… umbraticus -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T716c5aa0e2aa8a27-M962e5aa87312fb3af7063d84 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Alternative to fine-grained mouse usage?
There's a huge difference using my mouse in Plan9 than in Plan9port on my mac. Plan9 feels almost unusable by comparison. I suspect much of this is the very finely tuned acceleration/fine-pointing behavior of the mouse on modern desktop platforms. That's probably a ripe space for improving the Plan9 user experience. I wish there were better accessibility solutions for Plan9 as regards the mouse. That's likely another ripe area for tuning - taking advantage of Fitts' law in UI interactions (with a real acceleration/precision model) would be nice. There's few enough UI elements in our toolkit that it might even be feasible to do as a hobbyist. Paul On Wed, Jun 30, 2021 at 7:53 PM wrote: > > needing to copy/paste previous commands in terminal windows, etc. > > see " and "" scripts > > The finnicky mouse stuff is indeed an annoyance in acme. I use sam & > a trackball & a huge font. some conveniences have been added to sam, > ^B and ^G to switch from sam window and back to buffer. Make use of > <>!| commands and so on... standard ^W ^U ^A ^E stuff... plumbing, > searching, command language. rio window placement mostly automated. > I have sam just open files fullscreen automatically, which is quite nice… > > umbraticus -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T716c5aa0e2aa8a27-Ma67e1972b37912dac460dfc1 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Alternative to fine-grained mouse usage?
> needing to copy/paste previous commands in terminal windows, etc. see " and "" scripts The finnicky mouse stuff is indeed an annoyance in acme. I use sam & a trackball & a huge font. some conveniences have been added to sam, ^B and ^G to switch from sam window and back to buffer. Make use of <>!| commands and so on... standard ^W ^U ^A ^E stuff... plumbing, searching, command language. rio window placement mostly automated. I have sam just open files fullscreen automatically, which is quite nice… umbraticus -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T716c5aa0e2aa8a27-Ma610880200ac6ba2e64f4e5b Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
[9fans] Alternative to fine-grained mouse usage?
I have physical issues with trying to perform fine-grained mouse operations (uncontrollable small hand tremors). The net effect is that anything more much specific than window selection is difficult and takes several seconds - pretty much the antithesis of the study results that showed that editing using the mouse to point to where you want to type, select text, etc was as efficient as keyboard-driven edit. To give an idea of the scale of the problem, it's difficult to get the mouse positioned into the scrollbars or the command bar of acme windows, let alone point between two specific characters for inserting new text. So, my question is, are there any viable alternatives for use with Plan9? Throwing special hardware at the problem unfortunately isn't all that viable mainly due to budgetary issues - all the other environments I use support keyboard short-cuts for just about everything, so it's hard to justify spending any significant amount of money for what is essentially a low-priority hobby. If the answer is just to use sam, I can do that, but it doesn't really help the problem of needing to copy/paste previous commands in terminal windows, etc. Hopefully I'm missing something obvious Thanks. Dworkin -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T716c5aa0e2aa8a27-Me09f8341e9c38135813ead15 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
