Re: [abcusers] Version 2.0.0 voice overlay and lyrics
John Chambers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've seen a few discussions of how slow the RSCDS has been to take advantage of the Net. My usual comment has been something like: Of course they're a bunch of conservative fuddy-duddies who are decades behind the times. The RSCDS exists to preserve a tradition. It's their role to be conservative fuddy-duddies who are decades behind the times. It's up to us radical revisionists to develop their online system, and when they're good and ready, we can give them a copy of what we've done. (When this happens, I expect they'll just invite 2 or 3 of us to do the work. There are moves afoot to do exactly that. Chances are that when this happens the RSCDS folks (who aren't all »fuddy-duddies« at all -- since the big changing of the guard a few years back they're really nice folks once you get to know them) won't quite know what hit them :^) What I'd be tempted to do is set up a SCD wiki and invite all the strathspey subscribers to contribute.) The fun thing is that this already exists. It's not been advertised a lot but I have one on the www.strathspey.org site -- it's now being used for the »frequently asked questions« that I don't have time to really work on (or so it seems). If there are other worthwhile uses for it then great. Yes; he already links to the Fiddler's Companion site. Maybe we should both be discussing with him the easiest way to interconnect all of our sites. I have sets for about 600 dances in my collection (a bare start ;-). I've developed an approach that works for me. But it might be time to start talking about linking the SCD web sites. Alan isn't really concerned about the web aspect of DanceData so far; the web front-end is really my baby. I would like to see the music aspect of DanceData souped up; Alan isn't a musician himself and I know he wouldn't mind some help in that direction. I suppose what would be nice would be an extension of the database (or at least the web front-end) to cover non-recorded sets of tunes -- so far, the database deals in suggested tunes for dances and in recordings of sets of tunes. The easiest way to do this within the existing framework might be to come up with a »super-album« (or albums) of non-recorded sets and to pretend that they're all tracks on that. On the other hand, we're really dealing with sheet music here, so the proper way to do this is by allowing tunes in the database to have sheet music (a.k.a. ABC) associated with them and then assembling sets out of the individual ABC entries, tune-finder style. We should probably take this off the ABC list since it won't be interesting to most subscribers. I get the impression that a lot of teachers have put their favorite dances into their computers, and some are online. But they all do it differently. I wonder how long it will take for this to get into a form that can actually be used? I've collected a few myself, but my dance descriptions are in N different formats. Having standardized notations for cribs, dance descriptions etc. is one of the yearly discussion topics on Strathspey that never seem to get anywhere. I thought it was one in my collection, so I whipped out my cute Kyocera smartphone (which runs PalmOS and has some ABC software installed), used the browser to find the dance on my MIT site, and handed her the phone with the dance description on the screen. I got lots of geek points for that one. Oh yes, gadgets. A colleague of mine is working on the (Linux-based) system software for one of those newfangled harddisk-based MP3 units. The difference is that that thing has a fairly big LCD screen (for video display). It has a 40GB disk, and thus could store several hundred CD's worth of MP3 dance tracks -- and it would be eminently possible to embed dance cribs or even Pilling-style graphics in the MP3 using special »tags«. I told him that if he adds variable speed control to the thing I'll buy one the first day it is out :^) We're stuck with recorded music for dance classes and I should greatly enjoy not having to haul all those CDs to class. Anselm -- Anselm Lingnau .. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trying to get Windows to run on the hardware that Linux typically runs on is like pushing an elephant through a keyhole. -- _Forbes_, November 1998 To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Version 2.0.0 voice overlay and lyrics
John Chambers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey, glad to see you're doing this. I've volunteered in the past, but the RSCDS didn't respond. So far I'm doing this for my own enjoyment, with no official RSCDS sanction. I want to have an »Original Tunes for RSCDS Dances« book that saves me hauling 40+ booklets to those workshops where the teacher makes up his mind what to teach over breakfast on the same day (no kidding). I haven't yet decided what to do about publication of the ABC files. I suppose the thing to do would be to integrate them into Alan Paterson's DanceData somehow (or at least the WWW front end) and see what happens :^) If you're trying to transcribe the entire RSCDS versions of tunes, you might want to start commenting here about the abc limitations. You'll probably see a lot of them. Keyboard music is the worst case. I'm only doing the melody and chords. I try to stick to what is in the books but don't lose sleep over stuff that I feel needs changed. Are you doing the dance descriptions, too? No -- different construction site. I need the dance descriptions only when I'm teaching, and then I usually know what I want to do and just take the book along. Anselm -- Anselm Lingnau .. [EMAIL PROTECTED] I just found out that the brain is like a computer. If that's true, then there really aren't any stupid people. Just people running DOS.-- Haavard Fosseng To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Version 2.0.0 voice overlay and lyrics
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], I. Oppenheim [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes On Fri, 25 Jul 2003, Jack Campin wrote: A2 E2 G2 A2 [[ A B c d e f g a \ A A A A A A A A \ A G F E D C B, A, ] D2 E2 A2 ... For meter free music one could use _invissible_ bars, like this: A2 E2 G2 A2 [|] A B c d e f g a \ A A A A A A A A \ A G F E D C B, A, [|] D2 E2 A2 ... I think your use of the \ continuation makes for very readable music here. Groeten, Irwin Oppenheim [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~~~* Chazzanut Online: http://www.joods.nl/~chazzanut/ To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/list s.html Invisible barlines? Are you suggesting [|] as a non-printing barline? Bernard Hill Braeburn Software Author of Music Publisher system Music Software written by musicians for musicians http://www.braeburn.co.uk Selkirk, Scotland To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Version 2.0.0 voice overlay and lyrics
On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 22:02:03 +0200 (W. Europe Daylight Time), I. Oppenheim [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [snip] Abcm2ps does not support it. In abcm2ps [A2g] is equivalent with [A2g2] . No, it works, even if a bit ugly! Please explain to me: would there be any difference between [A2g] and [gA2] ? In a previous discussion, some people wanted the first note to give the length of the chord. But later, it seems that everybody agreed using the length of the smallest note. -- Ken ar c'hentañ | ** Breizh ha Linux atav! ** | http://moinejf.free.fr/ Pépé Jef| mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Version 2.0.0 voice overlay and lyrics
Anselm Lingnau writes: | John Chambers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | | Hey, glad to see you're doing this. I've volunteered in the past, but | the RSCDS didn't respond. | | So far I'm doing this for my own enjoyment, with no official RSCDS | sanction. I want to have an »Original Tunes for RSCDS Dances« book | that saves me hauling 40+ booklets to those workshops where the | teacher makes up his mind what to teach over breakfast on the same day | (no kidding). ... | I'm only doing the melody and chords. I try to stick to what is in the | books but don't lose sleep over stuff that I feel needs changed. So we really have the same motivation and approach. ABC works best for a fake book style, which is what is preferred by most SCD musicians that I know. I'll have to remember to steal some tunes from your site. (And you're welcome to any of mine, of course.) What you're doing was one of my main motivations for doing my ABC Tune Finder. It was obvious that a lot of the tunes that I might want were around on other people's web sites. The only problem was finding them quickly when I wanted one of them. Very often you can find the name of a dance's recommended tune, but how do you find the tune itself? I've seen a few discussions of how slow the RSCDS has been to take advantage of the Net. My usual comment has been something like: Of course they're a bunch of conservative fuddy-duddies who are decades behind the times. The RSCDS exists to preserve a tradition. It's their role to be conservative fuddy-duddies who are decades behind the times. It's up to us radical revisionists to develop their online system, and when they're good and ready, we can give them a copy of what we've done. (When this happens, I expect they'll just invite 2 or 3 of us to do the work. What I'd be tempted to do is set up a SCD wiki and invite all the strathspey subscribers to contribute.) | I haven't yet decided what to do about publication of the ABC files. | I suppose the thing to do would be to integrate them into Alan | Paterson's DanceData somehow (or at least the WWW front end) and see | what happens :^) Yes; he already links to the Fiddler's Companion site. Maybe we should both be discussing with him the easiest way to interconnect all of our sites. I have sets for about 600 dances in my collection (a bare start ;-). I've developed an approach that works for me. But it might be time to start talking about linking the SCD web sites. | Are you doing the dance descriptions, too? | | No -- different construction site. I need the dance descriptions only | when I'm teaching, and then I usually know what I want to do and just | take the book along. I get the impression that a lot of teachers have put their favorite dances into their computers, and some are online. But they all do it differently. I wonder how long it will take for this to get into a form that can actually be used? I've collected a few myself, but my dance descriptions are in N different formats. I have already had one Übergeek moment at a dance, when the teacher gave up on a dance and wanted to do a specific simpler dance, but didn't quite remember it. I thought it was one in my collection, so I whipped out my cute Kyocera smartphone (which runs PalmOS and has some ABC software installed), used the browser to find the dance on my MIT site, and handed her the phone with the dance description on the screen. I got lots of geek points for that one. I could have found a set of tunes for it, too, but so far that's of limited value. The phone's tiny screen doesn't work as a music book. I can play the tunes through the phone's tiny speaker, so it's useful as a reminder. But it's not usable for people who don't know the tunes. Some day, we'll have a portable that will fit on a music stand, with wireless connectivity (and good wireless coverage), and then it'll be possible to dispense with the printed pages. To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Version 2.0.0 voice overlay and lyrics
Bernard Hill writes: | | Invisible barlines? Are you suggesting [|] as a non-printing barline? This is implemented by a number of abc programs already. There's also a lot of use of x as a non-printing rest, and y as a non-printing, non-playing (i.e., just spacing) pseudo-rest. The latter is a bit of a kludge. To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
[abcusers] Version 2.0.0 voice overlay and lyrics
I have a question/suggestion about the new 2.0.0 standard. (Forgive me if this topic has been covered recently; I'm just back from a European choral tour, and I couldn't keep up with all the discussion over laptop dialup.) As someone primarily interested in typesetting choral music, I was very interested in the voice overlay capability with the '' syntax that emerged in abcm2ps some time ago. Many times in choral music we will have a vocal line splitting into two or three lines for only a few measures here and there, and abc shouldn't require defining a whole different voice for just those few measures. I did not see any mention of this capability in the new 2.0.0 standard, however. Maybe I missed it? Furthermore, it is not uncommon that when a vocal line temporarily splits into subvoices, that the pronounciation of lyrics in each of the subvoices will use slightly different rhythms. The '' character is not currently defined as a separator character in a lyric specification. Is it possible to define the '' for lyrics, in a manner similar to the note voice overlay, to generate a retrace back to the previous bar line, and allow multiple passes of lyrics through a bar that would be lined up with the multiple voice overlays? For each pass through the bar, the successive lines of lyrics would have to be offset vertically like what is done with successive verses. John To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Version 2.0.0 voice overlay and lyrics
On Thu, 24 Jul 2003, John Fattaruso wrote: As someone primarily interested in typesetting choral music, I was very interested in the voice overlay capability with the '' syntax that emerged in abcm2ps some time ago. I did not see any mention of this capability in the new 2.0.0 standard, however. Maybe I missed it? This is what the new revision of 2.0 will say about it: Voice overlay The operator may be used to temporarily overlay several voices within one measure. The operator separates these voices from each other. Example: A2 E2 G2 A2|A B c d e f g a A A A A A A A A A G F E D C B, A,|] Groeten, Irwin Oppenheim [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~~~* Chazzanut Online: http://www.joods.nl/~chazzanut/ To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Version 2.0.0 voice overlay and lyrics
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], I. Oppenheim [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes On Thu, 24 Jul 2003, John Fattaruso wrote: As someone primarily interested in typesetting choral music, I was very interested in the voice overlay capability with the '' syntax that emerged in abcm2ps some time ago. I did not see any mention of this capability in the new 2.0.0 standard, however. Maybe I missed it? This is what the new revision of 2.0 will say about it: Voice overlay The operator may be used to temporarily overlay several voices within one measure. The operator separates these voices from each other. Example: A2 E2 G2 A2|A B c d e f g a A A A A A A A A A G F E D C B, A,|] So what does that mean? Bernard Hill Braeburn Software Author of Music Publisher system Music Software written by musicians for musicians http://www.braeburn.co.uk Selkirk, Scotland To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Version 2.0.0 voice overlay and lyrics
A B c d e f g a A A A A A A A A A G F E D C B, A, So what does that mean? Please look here: http://www.joods.nl/~chazzanut/abc/split.html Irwin To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Version 2.0.0 voice overlay and lyrics
Bernard Hill wrote: Voice overlay The operator may be used to temporarily overlay several voices within one measure. The operator separates these voices from each other. Example: A2 E2 G2 A2|A B c d e f g a A A A A A A A A A G F E D C B, A,|] So what does that mean? abcm2ps is the only program which has implemented this, so probably only Jef can give a definitive answer at the moment. My take on it is that the operator sets the time point of the music back to the previous bar line, and the notes which follow it form a temporary voice in parallel with the preceding one. I suspect that this should only be used to add one complete bar's worth of music for each . It seems like a good idea to me provided that we don't get carried away. In MusicXML there is a similar construct, with the addition that you can switch staves as you set the time point back, and the Dolet plugins for Finale and Sibelius use this extensively for e.g. Piano music. Every bar contains all of the parts, right and left hand, bass and treble clef. It's an absolute nightmare! Phil Taylor To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Version 2.0.0 voice overlay and lyrics
Phil Taylor wrote: (of the operator) My take on it is that the operator sets the time point of the music back to the previous bar line, and the notes which follow it form a temporary voice in parallel with the preceding one. I suspect that this should only be used to add one complete bar's worth of music for each . With this limitation, it seems reasonable. It's in abc2mtex, without that limitation, for writing multiple-staff music. I used it exactly once, on something quite simple, and the abc quickly became unreadable, and, worse, nearly un-editable. But...it *did* do what I wanted. It seems like a good idea to me provided that we don't get carried away. In MusicXML there is a similar construct, with the addition that you can switch staves as you set the time point back, and the Dolet plugins for Finale and Sibelius use this extensively for e.g. Piano music. Every bar contains all of the parts, right and left hand, bass and treble clef. It's an absolute nightmare! This pretty well matches my experience. I concluded that if I were to use this any more, I'd need a pre-processor of some sort... So if we want to preserve human-readability and use the in any complicated way, it might be worthwhile discussing alternatives. Cheers, John Walsh To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Version 2.0.0 voice overlay and lyrics
On Thu, 24 Jul 2003, Phil Taylor wrote: My take on it is that the operator sets the time point of the music back to the previous bar line, and the notes which follow it form a temporary voice in parallel with the preceding one. I suspect that this should only be used to add one complete bar's worth of music for each . That is correct! Groeten, Irwin Oppenheim [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~~~* Chazzanut Online: http://www.joods.nl/~chazzanut/ To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Version 2.0.0 voice overlay and lyrics
On Thu, Jul 24, 2003 at 09:35:52AM -0700, John Walsh wrote: Phil Taylor wrote: (of the operator) My take on it is that the operator sets the time point of the music back to the previous bar line, and the notes which follow it form a temporary voice in parallel with the preceding one. I suspect that this should only be used to add one complete bar's worth of music for each . With this limitation, it seems reasonable. It's in abc2mtex, without that limitation, for writing multiple-staff music. I used it exactly once, on something quite simple, and the abc quickly became unreadable, and, worse, nearly un-editable. But...it *did* do what I wanted. Same here ... twice, I think. It was good to be able to do it, if you really needed to, but it certainly made me think hard about whether I really did need to. Mostly I preferred to sacrifice midi-playability and use P: It seems like a good idea to me provided that we don't get carried away. In MusicXML there is a similar construct, with the addition that you can switch staves as you set the time point back, and the Dolet plugins for Finale and Sibelius use this extensively for e.g. Piano music. Every bar contains all of the parts, right and left hand, bass and treble clef. It's an absolute nightmare! This pretty well matches my experience. I concluded that if I were to use this any more, I'd need a pre-processor of some sort... So if we want to preserve human-readability and use the in any complicated way, it might be worthwhile discussing alternatives. Yes. I'm not sure what would be a more readable way ? -- Richard Robinson The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes - S. Lem To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Version 2.0.0 voice overlay and lyrics
Bernard Hill writes: | In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], I. Oppenheim | The operator may be used to temporarily overlay | several voices within one measure. The operator | separates these voices from each other. Example: | | A2 E2 G2 A2|A B c d e f g a A A A A A A A A A G F E | D C B, A,|] | | | | So what does that mean? You first have to undo the line wrapping. ;-) Then you get something that is equivalent to: [V:1] A2 E2 G2 A2 | A B c d e f g a |] [V:2] | A A A A A A A A |] [V:3] | A G F E D C B, A,|] This should all be on one staff, of course. With only two bars, it's not very motivating. But if you only have a few bars like this in a larger piece of music, it can save you a lot of typing and futzing with two voices that are mostly silent. (For some reason, this example reminds me of the piano piece by Mozart, which ended with widely separated chords for the left and right hands, plus one note in the middle to be played with your nose.) To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Version 2.0.0 voice overlay and lyrics
On Thu, Jul 24, 2003 at 05:04:14PM +, John Chambers wrote: Bernard Hill writes: | In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], I. Oppenheim | The operator may be used to temporarily overlay | several voices within one measure. The operator | separates these voices from each other. Example: | | A2 E2 G2 A2|A B c d e f g a A A A A A A A A A G F E | D C B, A,|] | | | | So what does that mean? You first have to undo the line wrapping. ;-) Then you get something that is equivalent to: [V:1] A2 E2 G2 A2 | A B c d e f g a |] [V:2] | A A A A A A A A |] [V:3] | A G F E D C B, A,|] This should all be on one staff, of course. With only two bars, it's not very motivating. But if you only have a few bars like this in a larger piece of music, it can save you a lot of typing and futzing with two voices that are mostly silent. It occurs to me that part of the problem here is that the '' just doesn't stand out visually against the notes. I wonder if it would be possible to re-use the existing V: notation - lowercase v: doesn't seem to be in use (oh dear, cue we're running out of letters) A2 E2 G2 A2 | [v:1] A B c d e f g a [v:2] A A A A A A A A [v:3] A G F E D C B, A,|] Is that any more readable ? I think so, but I'm not sure. In fact, the numbers aren't necessary, it's just substituting a different marker (though the colon would be, to distinguish it from an up-bow, and I bet someone else'll suggest the numbers if I don't ...) (For some reason, this example reminds me of the piano piece by Mozart, which ended with widely separated chords for the left and right hands, plus one note in the middle to be played with your nose.) grin. -- Richard Robinson The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes - S. Lem To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Version 2.0.0 voice overlay and lyrics
Richard Robinson writes: | On Thu, Jul 24, 2003 at 09:35:52AM -0700, John Walsh wrote: | ... It's an absolute nightmare! | | This pretty well matches my experience. I concluded that if I | were to use this any more, I'd need a pre-processor of some sort... So if | we want to preserve human-readability and use the in any complicated | way, it might be worthwhile discussing alternatives. | | Yes. I'm not sure what would be a more readable way ? One thought: At least with keyboard music, what you have is a transient voice that isn't a true voice, but just appears for a brief time and then fades away. Maybe we could use a single voice, and flag the transient voice with something like a '+' to mean Add this to the voice. The recent example then might look like: [V:1] | A2 E2 G2 A2 | A B c d e f g a | g2 f2 e2 a2 |] [V:1+]| | A A A A A A A A | [V:1+]| | A G F E D C B, A,| The [V:1+] notation would mean to add these into the previous staff as part of V:1. You could use | as much as needed to get the bars aligned correctly, as is done in w: lines to skip to the next bar. Would this solve the problem? It would take a bit of work to implement, but probably no more than the '' approach. I think it could be made a lot more readable, too, as this simple example shows. In most cases, I suppose you would only need one such extra line, to add in the notes that are difficult to put in the [V:1] line. To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Version 2.0.0 voice overlay and lyrics
John Chambers wrote: One thought: At least with keyboard music, what you have is a transient voice that isn't a true voice, but just appears for a brief time and then fades away. Maybe we could use a single voice, and flag the transient voice with something like a '+' to mean Add this to the voice. The recent example then might look like: [V:1] | A2 E2 G2 A2 | A B c d e f g a | g2 f2 e2 a2 |] [V:1+]| | A A A A A A A A | [V:1+]| | A G F E D C B, A,| The [V:1+] notation would mean to add these into the previous staff as part of V:1. You could use | as much as needed to get the bars aligned correctly, as is done in w: lines to skip to the next bar. Would this solve the problem? It would take a bit of work to implement, but probably no more than the '' approach. I think it could be made a lot more readable, too, as this simple example shows. In most cases, I suppose you would only need one such extra line, to add in the notes that are difficult to put in the [V:1] line. OK, but what I was trying to get a reaction to initially was allowing whatever syntax triggers overlays of notes to similarly trigger an overlay in the corresponding lyrics in the w: line. I am currently up against this limitation in abcm2ps trying to typeset a choral piece where there are the four SATB parts through the entire piece, but only in the last three or four measures the bass part splits into bass I and bass II, with slightly different rhythms for the lyrics. John F. To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Version 2.0.0 voice overlay and lyrics
Richard Robinson wrote: It occurs to me that part of the problem here is that the '' just doesn't stand out visually against the notes. Well, it seems to me that the *main* problem is simlpy that the 2.0 draft doesn't explain it clearly enough (I can assure you all that Bernard wasn't the only one confused about it!). But yes, the lowercase v: seems clearer than the I stil prefer John's V:1+ idea, though. Among other things it allows a clear definition of *which* main voice the secondary voice is connected to. It may get a bit confusing when we have a v:2 as a secondary part to V:1 and a V:2 as an independent voice at the same time. Howeever, I understand the notation already is implemented by at least one application, That is definitely something that should be taken into consideration. --- John Chambers wrote: ... (For some reason, this example reminds me of the piano piece by Mozart, which ended with widely separated chords for the left and right hands, plus one note in the middle to be played with your nose.) Actually a German (I think) 20th Century composer whose name looses me at the moment also wrote a piano piece along the same line: two widely separated chords and a fast repeated drone note in the middle. Only - well the body part *he* specified for the middle note was not the nose... Frank Nordberg http://www.musicaviva.com To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Version 2.0.0 voice overlay and lyrics
On Thu, 24 Jul 2003, Frank Nordberg wrote: Well, it seems to me that the *main* problem is simlpy that the 2.0 draft doesn't explain it clearly enough (I can assure you all that Bernard wasn't the only one confused about it!). I'll add a picture when I'll have some time. Groeten, Irwin Oppenheim [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~~~* Chazzanut Online: http://www.joods.nl/~chazzanut/ To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Version 2.0.0 voice overlay and lyrics
On Thu, 24 Jul 2003, John Fattaruso wrote: OK, but what I was trying to get a reaction to initially was allowing whatever syntax triggers overlays of notes to similarly trigger an overlay in the corresponding lyrics in the w: line. There are 2 kludges you can use. Use multiple w: lines; or precede the notes with ^... or _... annotations that contain the lyrics. Groeten, Irwin Oppenheim [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~~~* Chazzanut Online: http://www.joods.nl/~chazzanut/ To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Version 2.0.0 voice overlay and lyrics
The operator may be used to temporarily overlay several voices within one measure. The operator I can understand this when it comes to (temporary) voices, with several melodies. But sometimes it concerns only chords, for ex. a chord with two wholes and one with a half, it seems less logic to use this kind of notation (would A B c d e f g a x6 A2 allowed then ?), so my question is will the notation with for ex. A B c d e f [A2g] a still be possible, in addition to the possibility (this [A2g] was implemented in abcm2ps, andI think Abacus can handle this too) ? It seems so obvious and logical it's strange it wasn't from the beginning of Abc, and for chords it's more readable than this command (again this example of A B c d e f [A2g] a, we can see at once what note is with the other) About pure voice overlay, I think also the option by Richard is even better than , I find it more readable [v:1] A B c d e f g a [v:2] A A A A A A A A [v:3] A G F E D C B, A,|] ___ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en français ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Version 2.0.0 voice overlay and lyrics
On Thu, 24 Jul 2003, [iso-8859-1] Forgeot Eric wrote: would A B c d e f g a x6 A2 allowed then ? This is notated correctly. so my question is will the notation with for ex. A B c d e f [A2g] a still be possible, in addition to the possibility (this [A2g] was implemented in abcm2ps Abcm2ps does not support it. In abcm2ps [A2g] is equivalent with [A2g2] . Please explain to me: would there be any difference between [A2g] and [gA2] ? Groeten, Irwin Oppenheim [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~~~* Chazzanut Online: http://www.joods.nl/~chazzanut/ To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Version 2.0.0 voice overlay and lyrics
John Walsh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I concluded that if I were to use this any more, I'd need a pre-processor of some sort... So if we want to preserve human-readability and use the in any complicated way, it might be worthwhile discussing alternatives. My little project is ABCifying the tunes from the RSCDS dance books. Some of the tunes have a second voice every so often (say, in four bars out of twenty-four), and the »« feature saves me a lot of typing in [V:2] bits that are mostly empty. Anselm -- Anselm Lingnau .. [EMAIL PROTECTED] I don't know a lot about this artificial life stuff -- but I'm suspicious of anything Newsweek gets goofy about -- and I suspect its primary use is as another money extraction tool to be applied by AI labs to the Department of Defense (and more power to 'em). -- Aaron Watters To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Version 2.0.0 voice overlay and lyrics
We currently have this notation for voice overlay (although this is first I'd ever heard of it). A2 E2 G2 A2|A B c d e f g a A A A A A A A A A G F E D C B, A,|] John Chambers explained was functionally equivalent to doing this. [V:1] A2 E2 G2 A2 | A B c d e f g a |] [V:2] | A A A A A A A A |] [V:3] | A G F E D C B, A,|] He went on, in a later email, to suggest that, because they are actually transient voices that, rather than have to continue to notate the two mostly empty voices throughout a piece that an an alternate notation could be used and he suggested. [V:1] | A2 E2 G2 A2 | A B c d e f g a | g2 f2 e2 a2 |] [V:1+]| | A A A A A A A A | [V:1+]| | A G F E D C B, A,| In a parallel track, Richard Robinson proposed this variant of the first to improve readability, where presumably the second voices were also to be considered transient for that bar. A2 E2 G2 A2 |[v:1] A B c d e f g a [v:2] A A A A A A A A [v:3] A G F E D C B, A,|] OK. I liked John's idea of transient voices as he expressed them: [V:1+]. While using separate lines for each transient voice certainly improves readability, it is much harder to write. I really like the compactness of the original. So, how about combining the two ideas? A2 E2 G2 A2 |[V:1] A B c d e f g a [V:1+] A A A A A A A A [V:1+] A G F E D C B, A,|] Or use Richard's lower case idea [v:1+]. To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Version 2.0.0 voice overlay and lyrics
Voice overlay The operator may be used to temporarily overlay several voices within one measure. The operator separates these voices from each other. My take on it is that the operator sets the time point of the music back to the previous bar line, and the notes which follow it form a temporary voice in parallel with the preceding one. I suspect that this should only be used to add one complete bar's worth of music for each . Assuming you would only ever want to do this in music with barlines? Really? Surely there are monophonic chants where voices split for a brief imitative Alleuia or Amen, for example? Or unmeasured guitar music? - I'd expect guitar and lute pieces to see the largest use of this feature. Why not some explicit start point? - paralleling the not-anchored-to- a-barline repeat syntax, use [ maybe? And perhaps a terminator to help sanity-checker utilities work out that the same duration had been provided for each voice, maybe ] ? I don't see why it needs to be unreadable; just overlap the voices vertically. Using the example given, removing barlines and adding a bit on the end: A2 E2 G2 A2 [[ A B c d e f g a \ A A A A A A A A \ A G F E D C B, A, ] D2 E2 A2 ... (I'm assuming each needs a separate matching explicitly stated start point - it also allows for a bit more generality as they needn't coincide). - Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760 http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack * food intolerance data recipes, Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files, and my CD-ROM Embro, Embro. -- off-list mail to j-c rather than abc at this site, please -- To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Version 2.0.0 voice overlay and lyrics
Anselm Lingnau writes: | | My little project is ABCifying the tunes from the RSCDS dance books. | Some of the tunes have a second voice every so often (say, in four | bars out of twenty-four), and the »« feature saves me a lot of typing | in [V:2] bits that are mostly empty. Hey, glad to see you're doing this. I've volunteered in the past, but the RSCDS didn't respond. So I've just done a lot of them in my own way, which usually amounts to extracting just the melody and ignoring bass lines and decorative voicelets. And adding my own chords (or simplifying theirs). And comparing the tunes with other books, to get a merged version. So my collection isn't a faithful transcription of the RSCDS booklets. If you're trying to transcribe the entire RSCDS versions of tunes, you might want to start commenting here about the abc limitations. You'll probably see a lot of them. Keyboard music is the worst case. I've also mentioned the idea of an RSCDS ABC project in the strathspey list, but it always seems to morph into a discussion of the possible copyright problems. I suspect that this is a red herring. People contribute their tunes and dances to the RSCDS because they want them played and danced, not because they expect to collect royalties. I'll predict that not a single tune or dance deviser will object to having them online. And your if your site has any impact on sales of the booklet, it will be a small increase due to the publicity. (I'm assuming that you'll include www.rscds.org in each tune's header. ;-) Are you doing the dance descriptions, too? That's a LOT of typing. To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Version 2.0.0 voice overlay and lyrics
Tom Keays writes: | | OK. I liked John's idea of transient voices as he expressed them: [V:1+]. | While using separate lines for each transient voice certainly improves | readability, it is much harder to write. I really like the compactness of | the original. | | So, how about combining the two ideas? | | | Or use Richard's lower case idea [v:1+]. Or, if we're going for ideas, we could note that we could just omit the stuff after the V: to say that it should be added to the second voice. This would produce: A2 E2 G2 A2 |A B c d e f g a [V:] A A A A A A A A [V:] A G F E D C B, A,|] This is syntactically identical to the usage, of course. Or my earlier example could become: [V:1] A2 E2 G2 A2 | A B c d e f g a | g2 f2 e2 a2 |] [V:] | A A A A A A A A | [V:] | A G F E D C B, A,| This is obviously wordier, but easier to sight read. Any more ideas? To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Version 2.0.0 voice overlay and lyrics
Oooh. I like Jack's suggestion. Mainly because nothing would have to be changed. If it ain't broke and all that... However, I don't think it has to be as complicated as Jack has it. A2 E2 G2 A2 [[ A B c d e f g a \ A A A A A A A A \ A G F E D C B, A, ] D2 E2 A2 ... If the standard already says that A2 E2 G2 A2|A B c d e f g a A A A A A A A A A G F E D C B, A,|] is ok, then A2 E2 G2 A2|A B c d e f g a \ A A A A A A A A \ A G F E D C B, A,|] must also be ok! To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Version 2.0.0 voice overlay and lyrics
On Fri, 25 Jul 2003, Jack Campin wrote: A2 E2 G2 A2 [[ A B c d e f g a \ A A A A A A A A \ A G F E D C B, A, ] D2 E2 A2 ... For meter free music one could use _invissible_ bars, like this: A2 E2 G2 A2 [|] A B c d e f g a \ A A A A A A A A \ A G F E D C B, A, [|] D2 E2 A2 ... I think your use of the \ continuation makes for very readable music here. Groeten, Irwin Oppenheim [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~~~* Chazzanut Online: http://www.joods.nl/~chazzanut/ To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Version 2.0.0 voice overlay and lyrics
On Fri, 25 Jul 2003, Jack Campin wrote: paralleling the not-anchored-to- a-barline repeat syntax You mean something like | [1 A B [|] [2 C D | ? Groeten, Irwin Oppenheim [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~~~* Chazzanut Online: http://www.joods.nl/~chazzanut/ To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Version 2.0.0 voice overlay and lyrics
Thank you all for your input! This is what I'll put in the revision of the standard: Voice overlay The operator may be used to temporarily overlay several voices within one measure. The operator sets the time point of the music back to the previous bar line, and the notes which follow it form a temporary voice in parallel with the preceding one. This may only be used to add one complete bar's worth of music for each . Example: A2 E2 G2 A2 | A B c d e f g a \ A A A A A A A A \ A G F E D C B, A, |] In meter free music, invisible bar signs `[|]' may be used instead of regular ones. Acceptable? Groeten, Irwin Oppenheim [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~~~* Chazzanut Online: http://www.joods.nl/~chazzanut/ To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Version 2.0.0 voice overlay and lyrics
On Thu, 24 Jul 2003, John Chambers wrote: [V:1] | A2 E2 G2 A2 | A B c d e f g a | g2 f2 e2 a2 |] [V:1+]| | A A A A A A A A | [V:1+]| | A G F E D C B, A,| While it is a nice idea, it is impossible to implement. The reason is that the ABC standard allows a voice to be broken up in any conceivable way, and different voices may appear in any order. Therefore an ABC parser cannot be sure how to synchronise voices, unless they are written out in full. Concluding: I think the operator is the best solution for notating temp. voices. Irwin To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Version 2.0.0 voice overlay and lyrics
On Thu, 24 Jul 2003, John Fattaruso wrote: As someone primarily interested in typesetting choral music, I was very interested in the voice overlay capability with the '' syntax that emerged in abcm2ps some time ago. Many times in choral music we will have a vocal line splitting into two or three lines for only a few measures here and there, and abc shouldn't require defining a whole different voice for just those few measures. I did not see any mention of this capability in the new 2.0.0 standard, however. Maybe I missed it? in the draft proposal I published I decided to stick to feratures that are already implemented by major applications only. '' is a very useful feature (I'm a singer too), but AFAIK only abcm2ps supports it. Irwin Oppenheim has extended the draft proposal with a more aggressive stance, please wait while we're fixing it. Later, Guido =8-) -- Guido Gonzato, Ph.D. guido . gonzato at univr . it - Linux System Manager Universita' di Verona (Italy), Facolta' di Scienze MM. FF. NN. Ca' Vignal II, Strada Le Grazie 15, 37134 Verona (Italy) Tel. +39 045 8027990; Fax +39 045 8027928 --- Timeas hominem unius libri To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
