Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Windows LO with JAWS
On 05/05/2018 04:02 PM, Tom Davies wrote: > i think the Apache Open Office licensing is somewhat more proprietary so we > can't legally copy their code. They can copy our's. Apache Open Office uses the Apache License 2.0. LibreOffice uses Mozilla Public License v2.0. In theory, the two licenses are compatible. The Apache Software Foundation has a formal set of policies, practices, and procedures regarding code used in projects under its domain. One of those policies is to be able to provide formal documentation regarding the providence of each line of code, in each project. As a consequence, code that started life in LibO won't be found in AOo. The Document Foundation has an informal set of polices, practices, and procedures regarding the code used in projects under its domain. Code providence is not a primary issue, and as such, code that started life in AOo can be utilized in LibO. Due to changes in the LibO code base, code from outside the project will probably require an extensive rewrite, before it runs correctly within the existing LibO code base. Nonetheless, you will occasionally stumble across code in LibO, that started life in AOo. jonathon -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Windows LO with JAWS
On 05/04/2018 10:43 PM, V Stuart Foote wrote: > VFO/Freedom Scientific's refusal to support accessible events instrumented > with IA2 API has never made much sense to me personally, but their VFO is more interested in collecting royalties on its patents, than it is in providing working products. _Enhanced Vision_ "joined" FVO in February. > For any JAWS user on Windows--LibreOffice is accessible at no cost, simply > install NVDA. Installing NVDA is a non-starter. Issue # 1: Where are the trainers? Whilst this is a chicken/egg question, the simple reality is that the government agencies that provide a11y tools and solutions, sub-contract training out, and if they don't have an NVDA trainer in their list of approved and authorized vendors, they won't provide NVDA. That FLOSS is destructive to those government agencies, is yet another reason why they are reluctant to provide FLOSS. ### There is a Windows 10 S to Pro free conversion for those requiring accessible assistive software, which gives one an enhanced version of Narrator. I have no idea what "an enhanced version of Narrator" provides. I have no idea how well Narrator works with LibO. (FWIW, I don't do Windows.) jonathon -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Windows LO with JAWS
Hi :) As i understand it ... i think the Apache Open Office licensing is somewhat more proprietary so we can't legally copy their code. They can copy our's. This led to IBM giving Apache a copy of all their accesibility code from their Lotus Symphony Suite. Back when Sun owned OpenOffice, back then called OO.o, there were numerous downstream projects such as IBM's Lotus Symphony, Go-OO (as used in many versions of Linux), NeoOffice (Mac) and others. Each added extra code or re-wrote parts and each had it's own niche market. When Sun got taken over by Oracle many of Sun's Open Source projects forked. Since then most of the old projects downstream of OO.o have merged into LibreOffice along with nearly all the personnel and community that had been working on OO.o. IBM were the exception. They didn't want to make their code Free for everyone to copy so they gave it to the Apache Foundation (Plc?). However, along with many other office suites and office programs, we both/all use the same formats as each other. The "Open Document Format", known as ODF, unites us in ways that different versions of MS Office have never been consistent with each other. Oddly quite a few people work in both projects so in some ways we are still 1 community but with 2 official organisations and 2 competing products! :) Of course we can still all use the older MS Formats (.doc and .xls etc) to share documents with other people but it's usually best to keep an 'original' in ODF rather than rely on MS's unreliable formats. The ODF for text-based documents (ie done on word-processors such as Writer) is .odt - the ODF for spreadsheets is .ods I may have missed a wrinkle or two but that is all as i understand it. So hopefully Apache Open Office or IBM's Lotus Symphony should be fine for Windows. AOO is the most up-to-date of those and is still free and is still actively being developed and has a nice community. Too many "and"s! Btw this is the first time I've heard of a difference between LibreOffice on Windows and LibreOffice on Linux. It's another reason I'm glad of having moved mostly away from Windows. I still have dual boots on some machines but I aalmost entirely use Linux now :) Good luck and regards from a Tom :) On 4 May 2018 23:43, "V Stuart Foote" wrote: Blindjourno wrote > Since you all can take code from OO, can't you take basically, all of > their accessibility information and use it in LO? I mean, I stopped > using JAWS years ago, but I heard from other people that JAWS works with > OO? Would that be a lot of work? Taking all of the accessibility > information from OO because OO is very accessible, just not updated or > even nearly as stable. Apache OpenOffice (AOO) uses the same IAccessible2 API, but unlike LibreOffice they left the MSAA/IAccessible API in place, so there is marginal Assistive Technology tool support in AOO with JAWS. And, nothing that LibreOffice would care to implement--thank you. Before its demise WindowsEyes had support for select IA2 based applications--but never LibreOffice or AOO. VFO/Freedom Scientific's refusal to support accessible events instrumented with IA2 API has never made much sense to me personally, but their insistence on Windows applications adopting Microsoft UI Automation (UIA) brands them as a second rate player in the Free and Open Source Software arena. It is not their business model--too bad if you are dependent on them. LibreOffice as an OpenSource and cross platform development project is not obliged to provide proprietary UIA bindings--an extension to "bridge" IA2 to UIA could be developed--but we'll leave that to Freedom Scientific to implement if they choose. We'll concentrate on making the native IA2/ATK & AT-SPI/NSAccessibility bridges function cross platform against LibreOffices internal accessibility modules. For any JAWS user on Windows--LibreOffice is accessible at no cost, simply install NVDA. Alternatively, ORCA on a Linux will do well, but if you need more hand holding for a small fee the Hypra project's U.A.S. "Universally Accessible operating System" is a first rate Linux Debian distribution. Enjoy... -- Sent from: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Accessibility-f2006038.html -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot
Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Windows LO with JAWS
Blindjourno wrote > Since you all can take code from OO, can't you take basically, all of > their accessibility information and use it in LO? I mean, I stopped > using JAWS years ago, but I heard from other people that JAWS works with > OO? Would that be a lot of work? Taking all of the accessibility > information from OO because OO is very accessible, just not updated or > even nearly as stable. Apache OpenOffice (AOO) uses the same IAccessible2 API, but unlike LibreOffice they left the MSAA/IAccessible API in place, so there is marginal Assistive Technology tool support in AOO with JAWS. And, nothing that LibreOffice would care to implement--thank you. Before its demise WindowsEyes had support for select IA2 based applications--but never LibreOffice or AOO. VFO/Freedom Scientific's refusal to support accessible events instrumented with IA2 API has never made much sense to me personally, but their insistence on Windows applications adopting Microsoft UI Automation (UIA) brands them as a second rate player in the Free and Open Source Software arena. It is not their business model--too bad if you are dependent on them. LibreOffice as an OpenSource and cross platform development project is not obliged to provide proprietary UIA bindings--an extension to "bridge" IA2 to UIA could be developed--but we'll leave that to Freedom Scientific to implement if they choose. We'll concentrate on making the native IA2/ATK & AT-SPI/NSAccessibility bridges function cross platform against LibreOffices internal accessibility modules. For any JAWS user on Windows--LibreOffice is accessible at no cost, simply install NVDA. Alternatively, ORCA on a Linux will do well, but if you need more hand holding for a small fee the Hypra project's U.A.S. "Universally Accessible operating System" is a first rate Linux Debian distribution. Enjoy... -- Sent from: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Accessibility-f2006038.html -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Windows LO with JAWS
Since you all can take code from OO, can't you take basically, all of their accessibility information and use it in LO? I mean, I stopped using JAWS years ago, but I heard from other people that JAWS works with OO? Would that be a lot of work? Taking all of the accessibility information from OO because OO is very accessible, just not updated or even nearly as stable. On 5/4/2018 4:18 PM, David Goldfield wrote: This is distressing. Several years ago, JAWS was working reasonably well with LibreOffice, if my memory is correct, but I have also encountered the same problem with more recent versions. As you say, NVDA offers much better support. While NVDA has been my screen reader of choice for nine years I would encourage users of JAWS to contact VFO at supp...@vfo.com to let them know your feelings regarding the lack of support being offered by JAWS for this excellent suite. David Goldfield, Assistive Technology Specialist WWW.David-Goldfield.Com On 5/4/2018 2:59 PM, V Stuart Foote wrote: Bryen Yunashko wrote ... A couple of months ago, I installed LibreOffice and had great difficulty because often when I started up LO, Jaws would stop working and then restart itself. A number of buttons and fields didn't work either. So, I put it aside for a while. This week I decided to try again and asked someone to update the latest LO as the inplace update button wasn't accessible for me. Now, when I start LO, it does not even speak anything. It is completely "hidden." But I know LO is actually running because I will randomly type some text, then press Alt+F4 to close the program and I get a prompt to save or discard my file. But while LO is open, nothing works. No menu button, tabs, arrow keys, nothing. Is this a known problem? Completely normal... LibreOffice implements a native Windows accessibility bridge based on the opensource IAccessible2 API Reference: http://accessibility.linuxfoundation.org/a11yspecs/ia2/docs/html/ Unfortunately for JAWS users Freedom Scientific has never seen fit to implement modular support for IA2, so the short answer is it is known and JAWS willl not work with LibreOffice. You will need to install NVDA as a free and open source Windows backup to JAWS. The screen reader navigation is a bit different--but fidelity of IA2 accessible content is much better. LibreOffice accessible event based support is pretty complete--and its screen review/Graphics API "screen scraping" rounds things out. Available here: https://www.nvaccess.org/ Let us know how you make out. -- Sent from: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Accessibility-f2006038.html -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
RE: [libreoffice-accessibility] Windows LO with JAWS
I've done it before. They didn't seem to care. The guy told me LO needed to be written to use UIA. Very depressing. So, I gave up and started using IBM Lotus Symphony on Windows and only use LibreOffice on Linux ever since. -Original Message- From: David Goldfield [mailto:dgoldfield1...@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, May 4, 2018 4:19 PM To: V Stuart Foote ; accessibility@global.libreoffice.org Subject: Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Windows LO with JAWS This is distressing. Several years ago, JAWS was working reasonably well with LibreOffice, if my memory is correct, but I have also encountered the same problem with more recent versions. As you say, NVDA offers much better support. While NVDA has been my screen reader of choice for nine years I would encourage users of JAWS to contact VFO at supp...@vfo.com to let them know your feelings regarding the lack of support being offered by JAWS for this excellent suite. David Goldfield, Assistive Technology Specialist WWW.David-Goldfield.Com On 5/4/2018 2:59 PM, V Stuart Foote wrote: > Bryen Yunashko wrote >> ... A couple of months ago, I installed LibreOffice and had great >> difficulty because often when I started up LO, Jaws would stop >> working and then restart itself. >> >> A number of buttons and fields didn't work either. So, I put it aside >> for a while. This week I decided to try again and asked someone to >> update the latest LO as the inplace update button wasn't accessible >> for me. >> >> Now, when I start LO, it does not even speak anything. It is completely >> "hidden." But I know LO is actually running because I will randomly type >> some text, then press Alt+F4 to close the program and I get a prompt >> to save or discard my file. >> >> But while LO is open, nothing works. No menu button, tabs, arrow >> keys, nothing. >> >> Is this a known problem? > Completely normal... > > LibreOffice implements a native Windows accessibility bridge based on > the opensource IAccessible2 API > > Reference: > http://accessibility.linuxfoundation.org/a11yspecs/ia2/docs/html/ > > Unfortunately for JAWS users Freedom Scientific has never seen fit to > implement modular support for IA2, so the short answer is it is known > and JAWS willl not work with LibreOffice. > > You will need to install NVDA as a free and open source Windows backup > to JAWS. The screen reader navigation is a bit different--but fidelity > of IA2 accessible content is much better. LibreOffice accessible > event based support is pretty complete--and its screen review/Graphics > API "screen scraping" rounds things out. > > Available here: > https://www.nvaccess.org/ > > Let us know how you make out. > > > > > > -- > Sent from: > http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Accessibility-f2006038.html > -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Windows LO with JAWS
This is distressing. Several years ago, JAWS was working reasonably well with LibreOffice, if my memory is correct, but I have also encountered the same problem with more recent versions. As you say, NVDA offers much better support. While NVDA has been my screen reader of choice for nine years I would encourage users of JAWS to contact VFO at supp...@vfo.com to let them know your feelings regarding the lack of support being offered by JAWS for this excellent suite. David Goldfield, Assistive Technology Specialist WWW.David-Goldfield.Com On 5/4/2018 2:59 PM, V Stuart Foote wrote: Bryen Yunashko wrote ... A couple of months ago, I installed LibreOffice and had great difficulty because often when I started up LO, Jaws would stop working and then restart itself. A number of buttons and fields didn't work either. So, I put it aside for a while. This week I decided to try again and asked someone to update the latest LO as the inplace update button wasn't accessible for me. Now, when I start LO, it does not even speak anything. It is completely "hidden." But I know LO is actually running because I will randomly type some text, then press Alt+F4 to close the program and I get a prompt to save or discard my file. But while LO is open, nothing works. No menu button, tabs, arrow keys, nothing. Is this a known problem? Completely normal... LibreOffice implements a native Windows accessibility bridge based on the opensource IAccessible2 API Reference: http://accessibility.linuxfoundation.org/a11yspecs/ia2/docs/html/ Unfortunately for JAWS users Freedom Scientific has never seen fit to implement modular support for IA2, so the short answer is it is known and JAWS willl not work with LibreOffice. You will need to install NVDA as a free and open source Windows backup to JAWS. The screen reader navigation is a bit different--but fidelity of IA2 accessible content is much better. LibreOffice accessible event based support is pretty complete--and its screen review/Graphics API "screen scraping" rounds things out. Available here: https://www.nvaccess.org/ Let us know how you make out. -- Sent from: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Accessibility-f2006038.html -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Windows LO with JAWS
Bryen Yunashko wrote > ... A couple of months ago, I installed LibreOffice and had great > difficulty because often when I started up LO, Jaws would stop working and > then restart itself. > > A number of buttons and fields didn't work either. So, I put it aside > for a while. This week I decided to try again and asked someone to > update the latest LO as the inplace update button wasn't accessible for > me. > > Now, when I start LO, it does not even speak anything. It is completely > "hidden." But I know LO is actually running because I will randomly type > some text, then press Alt+F4 to close the program and I get a prompt to > save or discard my file. > > But while LO is open, nothing works. No menu button, tabs, arrow keys, > nothing. > > Is this a known problem? Completely normal... LibreOffice implements a native Windows accessibility bridge based on the opensource IAccessible2 API Reference: http://accessibility.linuxfoundation.org/a11yspecs/ia2/docs/html/ Unfortunately for JAWS users Freedom Scientific has never seen fit to implement modular support for IA2, so the short answer is it is known and JAWS willl not work with LibreOffice. You will need to install NVDA as a free and open source Windows backup to JAWS. The screen reader navigation is a bit different--but fidelity of IA2 accessible content is much better. LibreOffice accessible event based support is pretty complete--and its screen review/Graphics API "screen scraping" rounds things out. Available here: https://www.nvaccess.org/ Let us know how you make out. -- Sent from: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Accessibility-f2006038.html -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-accessibility] Windows LO with JAWS
Hello, I was given this email address and hope it is the right one to contact. I recently set up a Windows laptop with Windows 10 Creators Edition and have JAWS 18 installed. Both are fully up to the latest updates.A couple of months ago, I installed LibreOffice and had great difficulty because often when I started up LO, Jaws would stop working and then restart itself. A number of buttons and fields didn't work either. So, I put it aside for a while. This week I decided to try again and asked someone to update the latest LO as the inplace update button wasn't accessible for me. Now, when I start LO, it does not even speak anything. It is completely "hidden." But I know LO is actually running because I will randomly type some text, then press Alt+F4 to close the program and I get a prompt to save or discard my file. But while LO is open, nothing works. No menu button, tabs, arrow keys, nothing. Is this a known problem? Thanks, Bryen M Yunashko -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
