Re: [AI] Death for the mentally disabled | The Economist
No, ladies should not include staff. We are giving priority to ladies over men because of their average physical limitations, but airlines staff is well trained to overcome such limitations... And, except speed of athletic performance, on average ladies are not greatly disadvantaged viz-a-viz men... I thinking now we are going astray from our original topic... -Original Message- From: AccessIndia [mailto:accessindia-boun...@accessindia.org.in] On Behalf Of Mukesh Sharma Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2014 9:21 PM To: AccessIndia: a list for discussing accessibility and issues concerningthe disabled. Subject: Re: [AI] Death for the mentally disabled | The Economist am scared of flying but in my recent flight, I was told that I will be the first person to be evacuated in case of emergency and otherwise as well. I feel the order of should be kids, ladies and then men and ladies should include the Airline staff. Thanks Mukesh -Original Message- From: Divyanshu Ganatra Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2014 8:35 PM To: AccessIndia: a list for discussing accessibility and issues concerningthe disabled. Subject: Re: [AI] Death for the mentally disabled | The Economist I'm most befuddled with the responses. i beg to respectfully disagree with you Harish, on this one. Are you saying that in all emergency landingsno evacuations are possible? that it is certain death in each and every such situation no matter what? we both can agree that such is not the case. i do feel strongly that this reflects the attitude of the larger society towards us, and if we take this sitting down we are dead anyways! it is the same reason why 99.9% of times no crew member even gives me a basic security drill before take off.. and i happen to travel extremely frequently. However this drill is never missed for the other regular passengers. i can go on about it, but believe very strongly that this regulation in India needs to change. On 3/6/14, Radha wrote: > Harish, > I go with your views, It is factual in todays world. No one will be > responsible for our life, other than one own. No law can save us in > such situation. > you made it clear in these lines! > " If you have to get fried, you don't have to break your bones before > that. Take it easy and enjoy your last moments. There is no need to > rush on that.Sorry, you will not get to hear the sweet voice saying, > "Welcome to smashangaon, the temperature outside is 25 degrees and > inside here 300 degrees. Thankyou for flying XX air and regret you > shall not fly with us again". >On a smilie note, let us put this thread to rest. Happy flying." > > On 3/6/14, Shireen Irani wrote: >> again, i think the point is missed here. >> >> this is not about 1 flight situation. it is about us allowing others >> to determine how valuable we r to the world, based on which, our life >> decissions will be made by others. >> and its not so much for us blind people, who r pretty much out there, >> and vocal about everything. >> all other disabled comunities r not as privilaged as we r, especially >> those with mentall issues. >> and i'm quite sure, that a lot of judiciary decissions often not in >> their favour. >> >> the need is for us to be extremely loud about the fact, that we will >> decide everything that concerns us. not some other bunch whom god >> loves more. >> >> ok. wont drag this further. but i wish this was taken more seriously. >> >> >> >> On 3/6/14, Kotian, H P wrote: >>> Frankly, Shriyeen, in a real situation, would you really wait for the >>> hostess to come to you and say darling, now, let us find our way out and >>> sorry for the long delay in attending to you,thanks for the patience >>> shown? >>> >>> Harish. >>> >>> -Original Message----- >>> From: AccessIndia [mailto:accessindia-boun...@accessindia.org.in] On >>> Behalf >>> Of Shireen Irani >>> Sent: 05 March 2014 22:35 >>> To: AccessIndia: a list for discussing accessibility and issues >>> concerning >>> the disabled. >>> Subject: Re: [AI] Death for the mentally disabled | The Economist >>> >>> sure george, she would. >>> but at the end of what, or whom, is the question. >>> when time ticks by, and there's only a few seconds in which u could save >>> yourself, u see the whole world go by u, while u wait and hope that u >>> can >>> make it before the crash. >>> >>> the main point here is, that we have given people the right to determine >>> and >>> decide the value of our life and worth. the problem lies there itself. >>> in >>> fact, e
Re: [AI] Death for the mentally disabled | The Economist
Harish other people will help them selfs any how, so they should give priority to us. one should help one, who is most in need. At 04:05 PM 3/6/2014, you wrote: I'm most befuddled with the responses. i beg to respectfully disagree with you Harish, on this one. Are you saying that in all emergency landingsno evacuations are possible? that it is certain death in each and every such situation no matter what? we both can agree that such is not the case. i do feel strongly that this reflects the attitude of the larger society towards us, and if we take this sitting down we are dead anyways! it is the same reason why 99.9% of times no crew member even gives me a basic security drill before take off.. and i happen to travel extremely frequently. However this drill is never missed for the other regular passengers. i can go on about it, but believe very strongly that this regulation in India needs to change. On 3/6/14, Radha wrote: > Harish, > I go with your views, It is factual in todays world. No one will be > responsible for our life, other than one own. No law can save us in > such situation. > you made it clear in these lines! > " If you have to get fried, you don't have to break your bones before > that. Take it easy and enjoy your last moments. There is no need to > rush on that.Sorry, you will not get to hear the sweet voice saying, > "Welcome to smashangaon, the temperature outside is 25 degrees and > inside here 300 degrees. Thankyou for flying XX air and regret you > shall not fly with us again". >On a smilie note, let us put this thread to rest. Happy flying." > > On 3/6/14, Shireen Irani wrote: >> again, i think the point is missed here. >> >> this is not about 1 flight situation. it is about us allowing others >> to determine how valuable we r to the world, based on which, our life >> decissions will be made by others. >> and its not so much for us blind people, who r pretty much out there, >> and vocal about everything. >> all other disabled comunities r not as privilaged as we r, especially >> those with mentall issues. >> and i'm quite sure, that a lot of judiciary decissions often not in >> their favour. >> >> the need is for us to be extremely loud about the fact, that we will >> decide everything that concerns us. not some other bunch whom god >> loves more. >> >> ok. wont drag this further. but i wish this was taken more seriously. >> >> >> >> On 3/6/14, Kotian, H P wrote: >>> Frankly, Shriyeen, in a real situation, would you really wait for the >>> hostess to come to you and say darling, now, let us find our way out and >>> sorry for the long delay in attending to you,thanks for the patience >>> shown? >>> >>> Harish. >>> >>> -Original Message----- >>> From: AccessIndia [mailto:accessindia-boun...@accessindia.org.in] On >>> Behalf >>> Of Shireen Irani >>> Sent: 05 March 2014 22:35 >>> To: AccessIndia: a list for discussing accessibility and issues >>> concerning >>> the disabled. >>> Subject: Re: [AI] Death for the mentally disabled | The Economist >>> >>> sure george, she would. >>> but at the end of what, or whom, is the question. >>> when time ticks by, and there's only a few seconds in which u could save >>> yourself, u see the whole world go by u, while u wait and hope that u >>> can >>> make it before the crash. >>> >>> the main point here is, that we have given people the right to determine >>> and >>> decide the value of our life and worth. the problem lies there itself. >>> in >>> fact, even when they make the announcements they ask people to help >>> themselves with the oxygen mask etc, before they help others. >>> which is fair enough, but ...there is a clear prioritisation of survival >>> of >>> the fittest. >>> and i have a problem with their definition of fittest. >>> >>> i like your perspective, harish. it shall be some consolation in the >>> last >>> few moments if ever they come my way. smile. >>> >>> >>> >>> On 3/4/14, avinash shahi wrote: >>>> I don't understand how they have drawn a Lakshman Rekha on 70 IQ >>>> level? And can intellectual disability be measured? very complex for >>>> me! >>>> Mar 4th 2014 15:22 by The Economist | WASHINGTON, DC >>>> >>>> http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2014/03/capital-punishment >>>> WHEN Bill Clinton was governor of Arkansas, he overs
Re: [AI] Death for the mentally disabled | The Economist
I don't know if people will accept my opinion or not. It is horrible to make like kids, ladies and gentlemen. leaving kids and wife alone without their hubby? or kids alone without parents. It really create drastic effect on the life of kids, without parents. Just don't look in the prospects of disable but in general. guys, it is the place to look in for inclusion in society. Reminds me of Titanic film! On 3/6/14, Mukesh Sharma wrote: > am scared of flying but in my recent flight, I was told that I will be the > first person to be evacuated in case of emergency and otherwise as well. > > I feel the order of should be kids, ladies and then men and ladies should > include the Airline staff. > > Thanks > Mukesh > > > -Original Message- > From: Divyanshu Ganatra > Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2014 8:35 PM > To: AccessIndia: a list for discussing accessibility and issues > concerningthe disabled. > Subject: Re: [AI] Death for the mentally disabled | The Economist > > I'm most befuddled with the responses. i beg to respectfully disagree > with you Harish, on this one. Are you saying that in all emergency > landingsno evacuations are possible? that it is certain death in each > and every such situation no matter what? we both can agree that such > is not the case. i do feel strongly that this reflects the attitude of > the larger society towards us, and if we take this sitting down we are > dead anyways! it is the same reason why 99.9% of times no crew member > even gives me a basic security drill before take off.. and i happen to > travel extremely frequently. However this drill is never missed for > the other regular passengers. i can go on about it, but believe very > strongly that this regulation in India needs to change. > > > On 3/6/14, Radha wrote: >> Harish, >> I go with your views, It is factual in todays world. No one will be >> responsible for our life, other than one own. No law can save us in >> such situation. >> you made it clear in these lines! >> " If you have to get fried, you don't have to break your bones before >> that. Take it easy and enjoy your last moments. There is no need to >> rush on that.Sorry, you will not get to hear the sweet voice saying, >> "Welcome to smashangaon, the temperature outside is 25 degrees and >> inside here 300 degrees. Thankyou for flying XX air and regret you >> shall not fly with us again". >>On a smilie note, let us put this thread to rest. Happy flying." >> >> On 3/6/14, Shireen Irani wrote: >>> again, i think the point is missed here. >>> >>> this is not about 1 flight situation. it is about us allowing others >>> to determine how valuable we r to the world, based on which, our life >>> decissions will be made by others. >>> and its not so much for us blind people, who r pretty much out there, >>> and vocal about everything. >>> all other disabled comunities r not as privilaged as we r, especially >>> those with mentall issues. >>> and i'm quite sure, that a lot of judiciary decissions often not in >>> their favour. >>> >>> the need is for us to be extremely loud about the fact, that we will >>> decide everything that concerns us. not some other bunch whom god >>> loves more. >>> >>> ok. wont drag this further. but i wish this was taken more seriously. >>> >>> >>> >>> On 3/6/14, Kotian, H P wrote: >>>> Frankly, Shriyeen, in a real situation, would you really wait for the >>>> hostess to come to you and say darling, now, let us find our way out >>>> and >>>> sorry for the long delay in attending to you,thanks for the patience >>>> shown? >>>> >>>> Harish. >>>> >>>> -Original Message- >>>> From: AccessIndia [mailto:accessindia-boun...@accessindia.org.in] On >>>> Behalf >>>> Of Shireen Irani >>>> Sent: 05 March 2014 22:35 >>>> To: AccessIndia: a list for discussing accessibility and issues >>>> concerning >>>> the disabled. >>>> Subject: Re: [AI] Death for the mentally disabled | The Economist >>>> >>>> sure george, she would. >>>> but at the end of what, or whom, is the question. >>>> when time ticks by, and there's only a few seconds in which u could >>>> save >>>> yourself, u see the whole world go by u, while u wait and hope that u >>>> can >>>> make it before the crash. >>>> >>>> the main point here
Re: [AI] Death for the mentally disabled | The Economist
am scared of flying but in my recent flight, I was told that I will be the first person to be evacuated in case of emergency and otherwise as well. I feel the order of should be kids, ladies and then men and ladies should include the Airline staff. Thanks Mukesh -Original Message- From: Divyanshu Ganatra Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2014 8:35 PM To: AccessIndia: a list for discussing accessibility and issues concerningthe disabled. Subject: Re: [AI] Death for the mentally disabled | The Economist I'm most befuddled with the responses. i beg to respectfully disagree with you Harish, on this one. Are you saying that in all emergency landingsno evacuations are possible? that it is certain death in each and every such situation no matter what? we both can agree that such is not the case. i do feel strongly that this reflects the attitude of the larger society towards us, and if we take this sitting down we are dead anyways! it is the same reason why 99.9% of times no crew member even gives me a basic security drill before take off.. and i happen to travel extremely frequently. However this drill is never missed for the other regular passengers. i can go on about it, but believe very strongly that this regulation in India needs to change. On 3/6/14, Radha wrote: Harish, I go with your views, It is factual in todays world. No one will be responsible for our life, other than one own. No law can save us in such situation. you made it clear in these lines! " If you have to get fried, you don't have to break your bones before that. Take it easy and enjoy your last moments. There is no need to rush on that.Sorry, you will not get to hear the sweet voice saying, "Welcome to smashangaon, the temperature outside is 25 degrees and inside here 300 degrees. Thankyou for flying XX air and regret you shall not fly with us again". On a smilie note, let us put this thread to rest. Happy flying." On 3/6/14, Shireen Irani wrote: again, i think the point is missed here. this is not about 1 flight situation. it is about us allowing others to determine how valuable we r to the world, based on which, our life decissions will be made by others. and its not so much for us blind people, who r pretty much out there, and vocal about everything. all other disabled comunities r not as privilaged as we r, especially those with mentall issues. and i'm quite sure, that a lot of judiciary decissions often not in their favour. the need is for us to be extremely loud about the fact, that we will decide everything that concerns us. not some other bunch whom god loves more. ok. wont drag this further. but i wish this was taken more seriously. On 3/6/14, Kotian, H P wrote: Frankly, Shriyeen, in a real situation, would you really wait for the hostess to come to you and say darling, now, let us find our way out and sorry for the long delay in attending to you,thanks for the patience shown? Harish. -Original Message- From: AccessIndia [mailto:accessindia-boun...@accessindia.org.in] On Behalf Of Shireen Irani Sent: 05 March 2014 22:35 To: AccessIndia: a list for discussing accessibility and issues concerning the disabled. Subject: Re: [AI] Death for the mentally disabled | The Economist sure george, she would. but at the end of what, or whom, is the question. when time ticks by, and there's only a few seconds in which u could save yourself, u see the whole world go by u, while u wait and hope that u can make it before the crash. the main point here is, that we have given people the right to determine and decide the value of our life and worth. the problem lies there itself. in fact, even when they make the announcements they ask people to help themselves with the oxygen mask etc, before they help others. which is fair enough, but ...there is a clear prioritisation of survival of the fittest. and i have a problem with their definition of fittest. i like your perspective, harish. it shall be some consolation in the last few moments if ever they come my way. smile. On 3/4/14, avinash shahi wrote: I don't understand how they have drawn a Lakshman Rekha on 70 IQ level? And can intellectual disability be measured? very complex for me! Mar 4th 2014 15:22 by The Economist | WASHINGTON, DC http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2014/03/capital-punishment WHEN Bill Clinton was governor of Arkansas, he oversaw the execution of Ricky Ray Rector, a man so feebleminded that he said he would save the pecan pie from his last meal "for later". In 2002 the Supreme Court ruled that putting mentally retarded people to death was a "cruel and unusual" punishment, and therefore unconstitutional. But the justices left it up to the states to define retardation, and this has proven so difficult that on March 3rd the issue came before the Supreme Court again. A Florida man named Freddie Lee Hall (pictured) was convicted in 1978, along with a
Re: [AI] Death for the mentally disabled | The Economist
I'm most befuddled with the responses. i beg to respectfully disagree with you Harish, on this one. Are you saying that in all emergency landingsno evacuations are possible? that it is certain death in each and every such situation no matter what? we both can agree that such is not the case. i do feel strongly that this reflects the attitude of the larger society towards us, and if we take this sitting down we are dead anyways! it is the same reason why 99.9% of times no crew member even gives me a basic security drill before take off.. and i happen to travel extremely frequently. However this drill is never missed for the other regular passengers. i can go on about it, but believe very strongly that this regulation in India needs to change. On 3/6/14, Radha wrote: > Harish, > I go with your views, It is factual in todays world. No one will be > responsible for our life, other than one own. No law can save us in > such situation. > you made it clear in these lines! > " If you have to get fried, you don't have to break your bones before > that. Take it easy and enjoy your last moments. There is no need to > rush on that.Sorry, you will not get to hear the sweet voice saying, > "Welcome to smashangaon, the temperature outside is 25 degrees and > inside here 300 degrees. Thankyou for flying XX air and regret you > shall not fly with us again". >On a smilie note, let us put this thread to rest. Happy flying." > > On 3/6/14, Shireen Irani wrote: >> again, i think the point is missed here. >> >> this is not about 1 flight situation. it is about us allowing others >> to determine how valuable we r to the world, based on which, our life >> decissions will be made by others. >> and its not so much for us blind people, who r pretty much out there, >> and vocal about everything. >> all other disabled comunities r not as privilaged as we r, especially >> those with mentall issues. >> and i'm quite sure, that a lot of judiciary decissions often not in >> their favour. >> >> the need is for us to be extremely loud about the fact, that we will >> decide everything that concerns us. not some other bunch whom god >> loves more. >> >> ok. wont drag this further. but i wish this was taken more seriously. >> >> >> >> On 3/6/14, Kotian, H P wrote: >>> Frankly, Shriyeen, in a real situation, would you really wait for the >>> hostess to come to you and say darling, now, let us find our way out and >>> sorry for the long delay in attending to you,thanks for the patience >>> shown? >>> >>> Harish. >>> >>> -Original Message----- >>> From: AccessIndia [mailto:accessindia-boun...@accessindia.org.in] On >>> Behalf >>> Of Shireen Irani >>> Sent: 05 March 2014 22:35 >>> To: AccessIndia: a list for discussing accessibility and issues >>> concerning >>> the disabled. >>> Subject: Re: [AI] Death for the mentally disabled | The Economist >>> >>> sure george, she would. >>> but at the end of what, or whom, is the question. >>> when time ticks by, and there's only a few seconds in which u could save >>> yourself, u see the whole world go by u, while u wait and hope that u >>> can >>> make it before the crash. >>> >>> the main point here is, that we have given people the right to determine >>> and >>> decide the value of our life and worth. the problem lies there itself. >>> in >>> fact, even when they make the announcements they ask people to help >>> themselves with the oxygen mask etc, before they help others. >>> which is fair enough, but ...there is a clear prioritisation of survival >>> of >>> the fittest. >>> and i have a problem with their definition of fittest. >>> >>> i like your perspective, harish. it shall be some consolation in the >>> last >>> few moments if ever they come my way. smile. >>> >>> >>> >>> On 3/4/14, avinash shahi wrote: >>>> I don't understand how they have drawn a Lakshman Rekha on 70 IQ >>>> level? And can intellectual disability be measured? very complex for >>>> me! >>>> Mar 4th 2014 15:22 by The Economist | WASHINGTON, DC >>>> >>>> http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2014/03/capital-punishment >>>> WHEN Bill Clinton was governor of Arkansas, he oversaw the execution >>>> of Ricky Ray Rector, a man so feebleminded that he said he would save >>>> the pecan pie from his last meal "for
Re: [AI] Death for the mentally disabled | The Economist
Harish, I go with your views, It is factual in todays world. No one will be responsible for our life, other than one own. No law can save us in such situation. you made it clear in these lines! " If you have to get fried, you don't have to break your bones before that. Take it easy and enjoy your last moments. There is no need to rush on that.Sorry, you will not get to hear the sweet voice saying, "Welcome to smashangaon, the temperature outside is 25 degrees and inside here 300 degrees. Thankyou for flying XX air and regret you shall not fly with us again". On a smilie note, let us put this thread to rest. Happy flying." On 3/6/14, Shireen Irani wrote: > again, i think the point is missed here. > > this is not about 1 flight situation. it is about us allowing others > to determine how valuable we r to the world, based on which, our life > decissions will be made by others. > and its not so much for us blind people, who r pretty much out there, > and vocal about everything. > all other disabled comunities r not as privilaged as we r, especially > those with mentall issues. > and i'm quite sure, that a lot of judiciary decissions often not in > their favour. > > the need is for us to be extremely loud about the fact, that we will > decide everything that concerns us. not some other bunch whom god > loves more. > > ok. wont drag this further. but i wish this was taken more seriously. > > > > On 3/6/14, Kotian, H P wrote: >> Frankly, Shriyeen, in a real situation, would you really wait for the >> hostess to come to you and say darling, now, let us find our way out and >> sorry for the long delay in attending to you,thanks for the patience >> shown? >> >> Harish. >> >> -Original Message- >> From: AccessIndia [mailto:accessindia-boun...@accessindia.org.in] On >> Behalf >> Of Shireen Irani >> Sent: 05 March 2014 22:35 >> To: AccessIndia: a list for discussing accessibility and issues >> concerning >> the disabled. >> Subject: Re: [AI] Death for the mentally disabled | The Economist >> >> sure george, she would. >> but at the end of what, or whom, is the question. >> when time ticks by, and there's only a few seconds in which u could save >> yourself, u see the whole world go by u, while u wait and hope that u can >> make it before the crash. >> >> the main point here is, that we have given people the right to determine >> and >> decide the value of our life and worth. the problem lies there itself. in >> fact, even when they make the announcements they ask people to help >> themselves with the oxygen mask etc, before they help others. >> which is fair enough, but ...there is a clear prioritisation of survival >> of >> the fittest. >> and i have a problem with their definition of fittest. >> >> i like your perspective, harish. it shall be some consolation in the last >> few moments if ever they come my way. smile. >> >> >> >> On 3/4/14, avinash shahi wrote: >>> I don't understand how they have drawn a Lakshman Rekha on 70 IQ >>> level? And can intellectual disability be measured? very complex for >>> me! >>> Mar 4th 2014 15:22 by The Economist | WASHINGTON, DC >>> >>> http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2014/03/capital-punishment >>> WHEN Bill Clinton was governor of Arkansas, he oversaw the execution >>> of Ricky Ray Rector, a man so feebleminded that he said he would save >>> the pecan pie from his last meal "for later". In 2002 the Supreme >>> Court ruled that putting mentally retarded people to death was a >>> "cruel and unusual" punishment, and therefore unconstitutional. But >>> the justices left it up to the states to define retardation, and this >>> has proven so difficult that on March 3rd the issue came before the >>> Supreme Court again. >>> >>> A Florida man named Freddie Lee Hall (pictured) was convicted in 1978, >>> along with an accomplice, for the rape and murder of a pregnant woman >>> and the murder of a police officer. He was sentenced to death. His >>> lawyers are appealing that he is too mentally incapacitated to be >>> executed. >>> >>> >>> For the bulk of the hour-long hearing, the justices quizzed Seth >>> Waxman, representing Mr Hall, and Allen Winsor, Florida's >>> solicitor-general, about the role of statistics in defining >>> intellectual disability. Florida's test requires defendants to >>> demonstrate both "significantly subaverage intellectual
Re: [AI] Death for the mentally disabled | The Economist
again, i think the point is missed here. this is not about 1 flight situation. it is about us allowing others to determine how valuable we r to the world, based on which, our life decissions will be made by others. and its not so much for us blind people, who r pretty much out there, and vocal about everything. all other disabled comunities r not as privilaged as we r, especially those with mentall issues. and i'm quite sure, that a lot of judiciary decissions often not in their favour. the need is for us to be extremely loud about the fact, that we will decide everything that concerns us. not some other bunch whom god loves more. ok. wont drag this further. but i wish this was taken more seriously. On 3/6/14, Kotian, H P wrote: > Frankly, Shriyeen, in a real situation, would you really wait for the > hostess to come to you and say darling, now, let us find our way out and > sorry for the long delay in attending to you,thanks for the patience shown? > > Harish. > > -Original Message- > From: AccessIndia [mailto:accessindia-boun...@accessindia.org.in] On Behalf > Of Shireen Irani > Sent: 05 March 2014 22:35 > To: AccessIndia: a list for discussing accessibility and issues concerning > the disabled. > Subject: Re: [AI] Death for the mentally disabled | The Economist > > sure george, she would. > but at the end of what, or whom, is the question. > when time ticks by, and there's only a few seconds in which u could save > yourself, u see the whole world go by u, while u wait and hope that u can > make it before the crash. > > the main point here is, that we have given people the right to determine > and > decide the value of our life and worth. the problem lies there itself. in > fact, even when they make the announcements they ask people to help > themselves with the oxygen mask etc, before they help others. > which is fair enough, but ...there is a clear prioritisation of survival of > the fittest. > and i have a problem with their definition of fittest. > > i like your perspective, harish. it shall be some consolation in the last > few moments if ever they come my way. smile. > > > > On 3/4/14, avinash shahi wrote: >> I don't understand how they have drawn a Lakshman Rekha on 70 IQ >> level? And can intellectual disability be measured? very complex for >> me! >> Mar 4th 2014 15:22 by The Economist | WASHINGTON, DC >> >> http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2014/03/capital-punishment >> WHEN Bill Clinton was governor of Arkansas, he oversaw the execution >> of Ricky Ray Rector, a man so feebleminded that he said he would save >> the pecan pie from his last meal "for later". In 2002 the Supreme >> Court ruled that putting mentally retarded people to death was a >> "cruel and unusual" punishment, and therefore unconstitutional. But >> the justices left it up to the states to define retardation, and this >> has proven so difficult that on March 3rd the issue came before the >> Supreme Court again. >> >> A Florida man named Freddie Lee Hall (pictured) was convicted in 1978, >> along with an accomplice, for the rape and murder of a pregnant woman >> and the murder of a police officer. He was sentenced to death. His >> lawyers are appealing that he is too mentally incapacitated to be >> executed. >> >> >> For the bulk of the hour-long hearing, the justices quizzed Seth >> Waxman, representing Mr Hall, and Allen Winsor, Florida's >> solicitor-general, about the role of statistics in defining >> intellectual disability. Florida's test requires defendants to >> demonstrate both "significantly subaverage intellectual functioning" >> and impairments in "adaptive behaviour" like communicating and looking >> after oneself. Psychiatrists use a similar approach and, like Florida, >> consider an IQ score of 70 or below as indicative of mental >> disability. But unlike many states and against the medical consensus, >> Florida uses that score as a rigid cutoff point. Mr Hall's IQ in 2002 >> was 71, so Florida considers him eligible for execution. It refuses to >> consider other evidence of his disability. >> >> That is a very slim line between prison and death, but, as Justice >> Sonia Sotomayor said, "a line has to be drawn somewhere." The main >> question she and several justices pressed is whether Florida may >> ignore the "standard error of measurement" implicit in all >> intelligence tests. "It is universally accepted," Mr Waxman argued, >> "that persons with obtained scores of 71 to 75 can and often do have >> mental retardation"
Re: [AI] Death for the mentally disabled | The Economist
Wonderful style, sir, indeed. However, Even if no sweet voices welcoming us to other worlds, even if survival in this world demands total independence, as you aptly put it, still, if cabin crew is there to rescue, and they are supposed to attempt it, me thinks any passengers with any limitations including PWD, children, infants, women etc. should be the first priorities, and not the last ones -Original Message- From: AccessIndia [mailto:accessindia-boun...@accessindia.org.in] On Behalf Of Kotian, H P Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2014 10:45 AM To: AccessIndia: a list for discussing accessibility and issues concerning the disabled. Subject: Re: [AI] Death for the mentally disabled | The Economist Rajesh Again, in a real situation, if there is a crash, it is always followed by an instant fire. Survival at any rate is very thin for anyone. Priority evacuation will never work. If you have to survive it, you have to go on your own. Your first task would be to get out of the plane, of course not causing a choke. Next, you should run as swiftly and as far your breath can take you. Fire is the greatest danger then. To my mind this is a hypothetical exercise. If you have to get fried, you don't have to break your bones before that. Take it easy and enjoy your last moments. There is no need to rush on that.Sorry, you will not get to hear the sweet voice saying, "Welcome to smashangaon, the temperature outside is 25 degrees and inside here 300 degrees. Thankyou for flying XX air and regret you shall not fly with us again". On a smilie note, let us put this thread to rest. Happy flying. Harish. -Original Message- From: AccessIndia [mailto:accessindia-boun...@accessindia.org.in] On Behalf Of Asudani, Rajesh Sent: 06 March 2014 10:04 To: AccessIndia: a list for discussing accessibility and issues concerning the disabled. Subject: Re: [AI] Death for the mentally disabled | The Economist No. But, totally orthopedically disabled person would have to do precisely the same... Why can't they evacuate us first instead of last? While trying to go on the ropeway in Gangtok last year with my wife and children, I had to sign the declaration that I am traveling at my own risk and the company is not responsible for my safe evacuation etc This has to change... Here the clause on emergency situations contained in UNCRPD and in hopefully in the draft RPD bill as well, would come in handy... -Original Message- From: AccessIndia [mailto:accessindia-boun...@accessindia.org.in] On Behalf Of Kotian, H P Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2014 9:59 AM To: AccessIndia: a list for discussing accessibility and issues concerning the disabled. Subject: Re: [AI] Death for the mentally disabled | The Economist Frankly, Shriyeen, in a real situation, would you really wait for the hostess to come to you and say darling, now, let us find our way out and sorry for the long delay in attending to you,thanks for the patience shown? Harish. -Original Message- From: AccessIndia [mailto:accessindia-boun...@accessindia.org.in] On Behalf Of Shireen Irani Sent: 05 March 2014 22:35 To: AccessIndia: a list for discussing accessibility and issues concerning the disabled. Subject: Re: [AI] Death for the mentally disabled | The Economist sure george, she would. but at the end of what, or whom, is the question. when time ticks by, and there's only a few seconds in which u could save yourself, u see the whole world go by u, while u wait and hope that u can make it before the crash. the main point here is, that we have given people the right to determine and decide the value of our life and worth. the problem lies there itself. in fact, even when they make the announcements they ask people to help themselves with the oxygen mask etc, before they help others. which is fair enough, but ...there is a clear prioritisation of survival of the fittest. and i have a problem with their definition of fittest. i like your perspective, harish. it shall be some consolation in the last few moments if ever they come my way. smile. On 3/4/14, avinash shahi wrote: > I don't understand how they have drawn a Lakshman Rekha on 70 IQ > level? And can intellectual disability be measured? very complex for > me! > Mar 4th 2014 15:22 by The Economist | WASHINGTON, DC > > http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2014/03/capital-punishment > WHEN Bill Clinton was governor of Arkansas, he oversaw the execution > of Ricky Ray Rector, a man so feebleminded that he said he would save > the pecan pie from his last meal "for later". In 2002 the Supreme > Court ruled that putting mentally retarded people to death was a > "cruel and unusual" punishment, and therefore unconstitutional. But > the justices left it up to the states to define retardation, and this > has proven so difficult that on March 3rd the issue came
Re: [AI] Death for the mentally disabled | The Economist
Rajesh Again, in a real situation, if there is a crash, it is always followed by an instant fire. Survival at any rate is very thin for anyone. Priority evacuation will never work. If you have to survive it, you have to go on your own. Your first task would be to get out of the plane, of course not causing a choke. Next, you should run as swiftly and as far your breath can take you. Fire is the greatest danger then. To my mind this is a hypothetical exercise. If you have to get fried, you don't have to break your bones before that. Take it easy and enjoy your last moments. There is no need to rush on that.Sorry, you will not get to hear the sweet voice saying, "Welcome to smashangaon, the temperature outside is 25 degrees and inside here 300 degrees. Thankyou for flying XX air and regret you shall not fly with us again". On a smilie note, let us put this thread to rest. Happy flying. Harish. -Original Message- From: AccessIndia [mailto:accessindia-boun...@accessindia.org.in] On Behalf Of Asudani, Rajesh Sent: 06 March 2014 10:04 To: AccessIndia: a list for discussing accessibility and issues concerning the disabled. Subject: Re: [AI] Death for the mentally disabled | The Economist No. But, totally orthopedically disabled person would have to do precisely the same... Why can't they evacuate us first instead of last? While trying to go on the ropeway in Gangtok last year with my wife and children, I had to sign the declaration that I am traveling at my own risk and the company is not responsible for my safe evacuation etc This has to change... Here the clause on emergency situations contained in UNCRPD and in hopefully in the draft RPD bill as well, would come in handy... -Original Message- From: AccessIndia [mailto:accessindia-boun...@accessindia.org.in] On Behalf Of Kotian, H P Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2014 9:59 AM To: AccessIndia: a list for discussing accessibility and issues concerning the disabled. Subject: Re: [AI] Death for the mentally disabled | The Economist Frankly, Shriyeen, in a real situation, would you really wait for the hostess to come to you and say darling, now, let us find our way out and sorry for the long delay in attending to you,thanks for the patience shown? Harish. -Original Message- From: AccessIndia [mailto:accessindia-boun...@accessindia.org.in] On Behalf Of Shireen Irani Sent: 05 March 2014 22:35 To: AccessIndia: a list for discussing accessibility and issues concerning the disabled. Subject: Re: [AI] Death for the mentally disabled | The Economist sure george, she would. but at the end of what, or whom, is the question. when time ticks by, and there's only a few seconds in which u could save yourself, u see the whole world go by u, while u wait and hope that u can make it before the crash. the main point here is, that we have given people the right to determine and decide the value of our life and worth. the problem lies there itself. in fact, even when they make the announcements they ask people to help themselves with the oxygen mask etc, before they help others. which is fair enough, but ...there is a clear prioritisation of survival of the fittest. and i have a problem with their definition of fittest. i like your perspective, harish. it shall be some consolation in the last few moments if ever they come my way. smile. On 3/4/14, avinash shahi wrote: > I don't understand how they have drawn a Lakshman Rekha on 70 IQ > level? And can intellectual disability be measured? very complex for > me! > Mar 4th 2014 15:22 by The Economist | WASHINGTON, DC > > http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2014/03/capital-punishment > WHEN Bill Clinton was governor of Arkansas, he oversaw the execution > of Ricky Ray Rector, a man so feebleminded that he said he would save > the pecan pie from his last meal "for later". In 2002 the Supreme > Court ruled that putting mentally retarded people to death was a > "cruel and unusual" punishment, and therefore unconstitutional. But > the justices left it up to the states to define retardation, and this > has proven so difficult that on March 3rd the issue came before the > Supreme Court again. > > A Florida man named Freddie Lee Hall (pictured) was convicted in 1978, > along with an accomplice, for the rape and murder of a pregnant woman > and the murder of a police officer. He was sentenced to death. His > lawyers are appealing that he is too mentally incapacitated to be > executed. > > > For the bulk of the hour-long hearing, the justices quizzed Seth > Waxman, representing Mr Hall, and Allen Winsor, Florida's > solicitor-general, about the role of statistics in defining > intellectual disability. Florida's test requires defendants to > demonstrate both "significantly subaverage intellectual functioning" > and im
Re: [AI] Death for the mentally disabled | The Economist
No. But, totally orthopedically disabled person would have to do precisely the same... Why can't they evacuate us first instead of last? While trying to go on the ropeway in Gangtok last year with my wife and children, I had to sign the declaration that I am traveling at my own risk and the company is not responsible for my safe evacuation etc This has to change... Here the clause on emergency situations contained in UNCRPD and in hopefully in the draft RPD bill as well, would come in handy... -Original Message- From: AccessIndia [mailto:accessindia-boun...@accessindia.org.in] On Behalf Of Kotian, H P Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2014 9:59 AM To: AccessIndia: a list for discussing accessibility and issues concerning the disabled. Subject: Re: [AI] Death for the mentally disabled | The Economist Frankly, Shriyeen, in a real situation, would you really wait for the hostess to come to you and say darling, now, let us find our way out and sorry for the long delay in attending to you,thanks for the patience shown? Harish. -Original Message- From: AccessIndia [mailto:accessindia-boun...@accessindia.org.in] On Behalf Of Shireen Irani Sent: 05 March 2014 22:35 To: AccessIndia: a list for discussing accessibility and issues concerning the disabled. Subject: Re: [AI] Death for the mentally disabled | The Economist sure george, she would. but at the end of what, or whom, is the question. when time ticks by, and there's only a few seconds in which u could save yourself, u see the whole world go by u, while u wait and hope that u can make it before the crash. the main point here is, that we have given people the right to determine and decide the value of our life and worth. the problem lies there itself. in fact, even when they make the announcements they ask people to help themselves with the oxygen mask etc, before they help others. which is fair enough, but ...there is a clear prioritisation of survival of the fittest. and i have a problem with their definition of fittest. i like your perspective, harish. it shall be some consolation in the last few moments if ever they come my way. smile. On 3/4/14, avinash shahi wrote: > I don't understand how they have drawn a Lakshman Rekha on 70 IQ > level? And can intellectual disability be measured? very complex for > me! > Mar 4th 2014 15:22 by The Economist | WASHINGTON, DC > > http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2014/03/capital-punishment > WHEN Bill Clinton was governor of Arkansas, he oversaw the execution > of Ricky Ray Rector, a man so feebleminded that he said he would save > the pecan pie from his last meal "for later". In 2002 the Supreme > Court ruled that putting mentally retarded people to death was a > "cruel and unusual" punishment, and therefore unconstitutional. But > the justices left it up to the states to define retardation, and this > has proven so difficult that on March 3rd the issue came before the > Supreme Court again. > > A Florida man named Freddie Lee Hall (pictured) was convicted in 1978, > along with an accomplice, for the rape and murder of a pregnant woman > and the murder of a police officer. He was sentenced to death. His > lawyers are appealing that he is too mentally incapacitated to be > executed. > > > For the bulk of the hour-long hearing, the justices quizzed Seth > Waxman, representing Mr Hall, and Allen Winsor, Florida's > solicitor-general, about the role of statistics in defining > intellectual disability. Florida's test requires defendants to > demonstrate both "significantly subaverage intellectual functioning" > and impairments in "adaptive behaviour" like communicating and looking > after oneself. Psychiatrists use a similar approach and, like Florida, > consider an IQ score of 70 or below as indicative of mental > disability. But unlike many states and against the medical consensus, > Florida uses that score as a rigid cutoff point. Mr Hall's IQ in 2002 > was 71, so Florida considers him eligible for execution. It refuses to > consider other evidence of his disability. > > That is a very slim line between prison and death, but, as Justice > Sonia Sotomayor said, "a line has to be drawn somewhere." The main > question she and several justices pressed is whether Florida may > ignore the "standard error of measurement" implicit in all > intelligence tests. "It is universally accepted," Mr Waxman argued, > "that persons with obtained scores of 71 to 75 can and often do have > mental retardation" due to a five-point margin of error. The four > liberal justices, along with the swing voter, Anthony Kennedy, were > inclined to agree. "Your rule prevents us from getting a better > understanding of whether that IQ score is accurate o
Re: [AI] Death for the mentally disabled | The Economist
Frankly, Shriyeen, in a real situation, would you really wait for the hostess to come to you and say darling, now, let us find our way out and sorry for the long delay in attending to you,thanks for the patience shown? Harish. -Original Message- From: AccessIndia [mailto:accessindia-boun...@accessindia.org.in] On Behalf Of Shireen Irani Sent: 05 March 2014 22:35 To: AccessIndia: a list for discussing accessibility and issues concerning the disabled. Subject: Re: [AI] Death for the mentally disabled | The Economist sure george, she would. but at the end of what, or whom, is the question. when time ticks by, and there's only a few seconds in which u could save yourself, u see the whole world go by u, while u wait and hope that u can make it before the crash. the main point here is, that we have given people the right to determine and decide the value of our life and worth. the problem lies there itself. in fact, even when they make the announcements they ask people to help themselves with the oxygen mask etc, before they help others. which is fair enough, but ...there is a clear prioritisation of survival of the fittest. and i have a problem with their definition of fittest. i like your perspective, harish. it shall be some consolation in the last few moments if ever they come my way. smile. On 3/4/14, avinash shahi wrote: > I don't understand how they have drawn a Lakshman Rekha on 70 IQ > level? And can intellectual disability be measured? very complex for > me! > Mar 4th 2014 15:22 by The Economist | WASHINGTON, DC > > http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2014/03/capital-punishment > WHEN Bill Clinton was governor of Arkansas, he oversaw the execution > of Ricky Ray Rector, a man so feebleminded that he said he would save > the pecan pie from his last meal "for later". In 2002 the Supreme > Court ruled that putting mentally retarded people to death was a > "cruel and unusual" punishment, and therefore unconstitutional. But > the justices left it up to the states to define retardation, and this > has proven so difficult that on March 3rd the issue came before the > Supreme Court again. > > A Florida man named Freddie Lee Hall (pictured) was convicted in 1978, > along with an accomplice, for the rape and murder of a pregnant woman > and the murder of a police officer. He was sentenced to death. His > lawyers are appealing that he is too mentally incapacitated to be > executed. > > > For the bulk of the hour-long hearing, the justices quizzed Seth > Waxman, representing Mr Hall, and Allen Winsor, Florida's > solicitor-general, about the role of statistics in defining > intellectual disability. Florida's test requires defendants to > demonstrate both "significantly subaverage intellectual functioning" > and impairments in "adaptive behaviour" like communicating and looking > after oneself. Psychiatrists use a similar approach and, like Florida, > consider an IQ score of 70 or below as indicative of mental > disability. But unlike many states and against the medical consensus, > Florida uses that score as a rigid cutoff point. Mr Hall's IQ in 2002 > was 71, so Florida considers him eligible for execution. It refuses to > consider other evidence of his disability. > > That is a very slim line between prison and death, but, as Justice > Sonia Sotomayor said, "a line has to be drawn somewhere." The main > question she and several justices pressed is whether Florida may > ignore the "standard error of measurement" implicit in all > intelligence tests. "It is universally accepted," Mr Waxman argued, > "that persons with obtained scores of 71 to 75 can and often do have > mental retardation" due to a five-point margin of error. The four > liberal justices, along with the swing voter, Anthony Kennedy, were > inclined to agree. "Your rule prevents us from getting a better > understanding of whether that IQ score is accurate or not," Mr Kennedy > admonished Mr Winsor. > > Not until the closing minutes of the hearing did anyone acknowledge > the man's life hanging in the balance. Justice Stephen Breyer noted > that Mr Hall "has been on death row for over 35 years". Justice > Kennedy asked Mr Winsor if he considered Florida's brand of delayed > justice to be "consistent with the purposes of the death penalty". > This inquiry from Mr Kennedy had nothing to do with the narrow legal > question of the day, but it betrayed his more general doubts about the > way the Sunshine State puts people to death. > > Antonin Scalia, a conservative justice, was more hostile to Mr Hall's > defence. He noted that it took ten years after his initial conviction > for Mr Hall's law
Re: [AI] Death for the mentally disabled | The Economist
sure george, she would. but at the end of what, or whom, is the question. when time ticks by, and there's only a few seconds in which u could save yourself, u see the whole world go by u, while u wait and hope that u can make it before the crash. the main point here is, that we have given people the right to determine and decide the value of our life and worth. the problem lies there itself. in fact, even when they make the announcements they ask people to help themselves with the oxygen mask etc, before they help others. which is fair enough, but ...there is a clear prioritisation of survival of the fittest. and i have a problem with their definition of fittest. i like your perspective, harish. it shall be some consolation in the last few moments if ever they come my way. smile. On 3/4/14, avinash shahi wrote: > I don't understand how they have drawn a Lakshman Rekha on 70 IQ > level? And can intellectual disability be measured? very complex for > me! > Mar 4th 2014 15:22 by The Economist | WASHINGTON, DC > > http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2014/03/capital-punishment > WHEN Bill Clinton was governor of Arkansas, he oversaw the execution > of Ricky Ray Rector, a man so feebleminded that he said he would save > the pecan pie from his last meal "for later". In 2002 the Supreme > Court ruled that putting mentally retarded people to death was a > "cruel and unusual" punishment, and therefore unconstitutional. But > the justices left it up to the states to define retardation, and this > has proven so difficult that on March 3rd the issue came before the > Supreme Court again. > > A Florida man named Freddie Lee Hall (pictured) was convicted in 1978, > along with an accomplice, for the rape and murder of a pregnant woman > and the murder of a police officer. He was sentenced to death. His > lawyers are appealing that he is too mentally incapacitated to be > executed. > > > For the bulk of the hour-long hearing, the justices quizzed Seth > Waxman, representing Mr Hall, and Allen Winsor, Florida's > solicitor-general, about the role of statistics in defining > intellectual disability. Florida's test requires defendants to > demonstrate both "significantly subaverage intellectual functioning" > and impairments in "adaptive behaviour" like communicating and looking > after oneself. Psychiatrists use a similar approach and, like Florida, > consider an IQ score of 70 or below as indicative of mental > disability. But unlike many states and against the medical consensus, > Florida uses that score as a rigid cutoff point. Mr Hall's IQ in 2002 > was 71, so Florida considers him eligible for execution. It refuses to > consider other evidence of his disability. > > That is a very slim line between prison and death, but, as Justice > Sonia Sotomayor said, "a line has to be drawn somewhere." The main > question she and several justices pressed is whether Florida may > ignore the "standard error of measurement" implicit in all > intelligence tests. "It is universally accepted," Mr Waxman argued, > "that persons with obtained scores of 71 to 75 can and often do have > mental retardation" due to a five-point margin of error. The four > liberal justices, along with the swing voter, Anthony Kennedy, were > inclined to agree. "Your rule prevents us from getting a better > understanding of whether that IQ score is accurate or not," Mr Kennedy > admonished Mr Winsor. > > Not until the closing minutes of the hearing did anyone acknowledge > the man's life hanging in the balance. Justice Stephen Breyer noted > that Mr Hall "has been on death row for over 35 years". Justice > Kennedy asked Mr Winsor if he considered Florida's brand of delayed > justice to be "consistent with the purposes of the death penalty". > This inquiry from Mr Kennedy had nothing to do with the narrow legal > question of the day, but it betrayed his more general doubts about the > way the Sunshine State puts people to death. > > Antonin Scalia, a conservative justice, was more hostile to Mr Hall's > defence. He noted that it took ten years after his initial conviction > for Mr Hall's lawyers to raise the issue of retardation. He added that > the complexity of the crime--which involved hiding one victim's body in > a wood--belies Mr Hall's purported disability. The state might well > argue, Justice Scalia said, that Mr Hall "could not have pulled all of > this off" if he was really so intellectually impaired. This is an old > theme for Mr Scalia, who argued back in 2002 that the court's bar on > executing the mentally disabled would turn "the process of capital > trial into a game" where murderers "feign mental retardation" to avoid > the death penalty. > > Justice Elena Kagan cut to the chase late in the proceedings: "Can I > just ask," she said to Mr Winsor, "why you have this policy?" > Initially flummoxed, Mr Winsor replied: "Florida has an interest in > ensuring that the people who evade execution because of mental > retardation are pe
Re: [AI] Death for the mentally disabled | The Economist
Shireen, An Air hostess told me exactly the same thing! But she also said that she would come for me at the end! George -Original Message- From: AccessIndia [mailto:accessindia-boun...@accessindia.org.in] On Behalf Of Kotian, H P Sent: 05 March 2014 09:55 To: AccessIndia: a list for discussing accessibility and issues concerning the disabled. Subject: Re: [AI] Death for the mentally disabled | The Economist Hi On a lighter note, the captain is the last person to abandon the plane / ship. Therefore, your importance is only next to that of the captain. Feel good . Harish -Original Message- From: AccessIndia [mailto:accessindia-boun...@accessindia.org.in] On Behalf Of Sathiyaprakash Ramdoss Sent: 05 March 2014 00:45 To: AccessIndia: a list for discussing accessibility and issues concerning the disabled. Subject: Re: [AI] Death for the mentally disabled | The Economist What??? This is totally unacceptable. Something wrong with her training or with the way she understood? Here in the U.S. we're getting prioritized at the time of emergency evacuations. Thank you. Sathiya. On 3/4/14, Shireen Irani wrote: > seriously ya, the practice of mesuring inteligence using IQ tests > itself, is extremely questionable. > > but what is most interesting, and important for all of us here, that > your life and death is determined by people, based on how physically > so called normal u r. > i'm saying this, because i was recently on a flight, when an > airhostess came to me to give me the usual rant of instructions, and > she informed me, that in the event of an immergency evacuation, i will > be the last person to be helped out of the plain. meanning that all > the other normal people, who r more likely to positively contribute to > society, will have a greater chance of survival than me, only because > i'm less of an asset to humanity because of my blindness. > i found this extremely amusing, and felt like spending my entire > travel time, making a list of all the positive contributions made by > my fellow-pasengers, and proving to them, that there would b at least > 1 pasenger on bord, who deserved a lesser chance than i did, in that > respect. > anyway. so if nothing else, we must be proactive in society, if only > to survive, and not be the last to be saved, if for no other reason. > smile. > > > On 3/4/14, avinash shahi wrote: >> I don't understand how they have drawn a Lakshman Rekha on 70 IQ >> level? And can intellectual disability be measured? very complex for >> me! >> Mar 4th 2014 15:22 by The Economist | WASHINGTON, DC >> >> http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2014/03/capital-punishmen t >> WHEN Bill Clinton was governor of Arkansas, he oversaw the execution >> of Ricky Ray Rector, a man so feebleminded that he said he would save >> the pecan pie from his last meal "for later". In 2002 the Supreme >> Court ruled that putting mentally retarded people to death was a >> "cruel and unusual" punishment, and therefore unconstitutional. But >> the justices left it up to the states to define retardation, and this >> has proven so difficult that on March 3rd the issue came before the >> Supreme Court again. >> >> A Florida man named Freddie Lee Hall (pictured) was convicted in 1978, >> along with an accomplice, for the rape and murder of a pregnant woman >> and the murder of a police officer. He was sentenced to death. His >> lawyers are appealing that he is too mentally incapacitated to be >> executed. >> >> >> For the bulk of the hour-long hearing, the justices quizzed Seth >> Waxman, representing Mr Hall, and Allen Winsor, Florida's >> solicitor-general, about the role of statistics in defining >> intellectual disability. Florida's test requires defendants to >> demonstrate both "significantly subaverage intellectual functioning" >> and impairments in "adaptive behaviour" like communicating and looking >> after oneself. Psychiatrists use a similar approach and, like Florida, >> consider an IQ score of 70 or below as indicative of mental >> disability. But unlike many states and against the medical consensus, >> Florida uses that score as a rigid cutoff point. Mr Hall's IQ in 2002 >> was 71, so Florida considers him eligible for execution. It refuses to >> consider other evidence of his disability. >> >> That is a very slim line between prison and death, but, as Justice >> Sonia Sotomayor said, "a line has to be drawn somewhere." The main >> question she and several justices pressed is whether Florida may >> ignore the "standard error of measurement" implicit in all >> intel
Re: [AI] Death for the mentally disabled | The Economist
Hi On a lighter note, the captain is the last person to abandon the plane / ship. Therefore, your importance is only next to that of the captain. Feel good . Harish -Original Message- From: AccessIndia [mailto:accessindia-boun...@accessindia.org.in] On Behalf Of Sathiyaprakash Ramdoss Sent: 05 March 2014 00:45 To: AccessIndia: a list for discussing accessibility and issues concerning the disabled. Subject: Re: [AI] Death for the mentally disabled | The Economist What??? This is totally unacceptable. Something wrong with her training or with the way she understood? Here in the U.S. we're getting prioritized at the time of emergency evacuations. Thank you. Sathiya. On 3/4/14, Shireen Irani wrote: > seriously ya, the practice of mesuring inteligence using IQ tests > itself, is extremely questionable. > > but what is most interesting, and important for all of us here, that > your life and death is determined by people, based on how physically > so called normal u r. > i'm saying this, because i was recently on a flight, when an > airhostess came to me to give me the usual rant of instructions, and > she informed me, that in the event of an immergency evacuation, i will > be the last person to be helped out of the plain. meanning that all > the other normal people, who r more likely to positively contribute to > society, will have a greater chance of survival than me, only because > i'm less of an asset to humanity because of my blindness. > i found this extremely amusing, and felt like spending my entire > travel time, making a list of all the positive contributions made by > my fellow-pasengers, and proving to them, that there would b at least > 1 pasenger on bord, who deserved a lesser chance than i did, in that > respect. > anyway. so if nothing else, we must be proactive in society, if only > to survive, and not be the last to be saved, if for no other reason. > smile. > > > On 3/4/14, avinash shahi wrote: >> I don't understand how they have drawn a Lakshman Rekha on 70 IQ >> level? And can intellectual disability be measured? very complex for >> me! >> Mar 4th 2014 15:22 by The Economist | WASHINGTON, DC >> >> http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2014/03/capital-punishment >> WHEN Bill Clinton was governor of Arkansas, he oversaw the execution >> of Ricky Ray Rector, a man so feebleminded that he said he would save >> the pecan pie from his last meal "for later". In 2002 the Supreme >> Court ruled that putting mentally retarded people to death was a >> "cruel and unusual" punishment, and therefore unconstitutional. But >> the justices left it up to the states to define retardation, and this >> has proven so difficult that on March 3rd the issue came before the >> Supreme Court again. >> >> A Florida man named Freddie Lee Hall (pictured) was convicted in 1978, >> along with an accomplice, for the rape and murder of a pregnant woman >> and the murder of a police officer. He was sentenced to death. His >> lawyers are appealing that he is too mentally incapacitated to be >> executed. >> >> >> For the bulk of the hour-long hearing, the justices quizzed Seth >> Waxman, representing Mr Hall, and Allen Winsor, Florida's >> solicitor-general, about the role of statistics in defining >> intellectual disability. Florida's test requires defendants to >> demonstrate both "significantly subaverage intellectual functioning" >> and impairments in "adaptive behaviour" like communicating and looking >> after oneself. Psychiatrists use a similar approach and, like Florida, >> consider an IQ score of 70 or below as indicative of mental >> disability. But unlike many states and against the medical consensus, >> Florida uses that score as a rigid cutoff point. Mr Hall's IQ in 2002 >> was 71, so Florida considers him eligible for execution. It refuses to >> consider other evidence of his disability. >> >> That is a very slim line between prison and death, but, as Justice >> Sonia Sotomayor said, "a line has to be drawn somewhere." The main >> question she and several justices pressed is whether Florida may >> ignore the "standard error of measurement" implicit in all >> intelligence tests. "It is universally accepted," Mr Waxman argued, >> "that persons with obtained scores of 71 to 75 can and often do have >> mental retardation" due to a five-point margin of error. The four >> liberal justices, along with the swing voter, Anthony Kennedy, were >> inclined to agree. "Your rule prevents us from getting a better >> understanding of wheth
Re: [AI] Death for the mentally disabled | The Economist
What??? This is totally unacceptable. Something wrong with her training or with the way she understood? Here in the U.S. we're getting prioritized at the time of emergency evacuations. Thank you. Sathiya. On 3/4/14, Shireen Irani wrote: > seriously ya, the practice of mesuring inteligence using IQ tests > itself, is extremely questionable. > > but what is most interesting, and important for all of us here, that > your life and death is determined by people, based on how physically > so called normal u r. > i'm saying this, because i was recently on a flight, when an > airhostess came to me to give me the usual rant of instructions, and > she informed me, that in the event of an immergency evacuation, i will > be the last person to be helped out of the plain. meanning that all > the other normal people, who r more likely to positively contribute to > society, will have a greater chance of survival than me, only because > i'm less of an asset to humanity because of my blindness. > i found this extremely amusing, and felt like spending my entire > travel time, making a list of all the positive contributions made by > my fellow-pasengers, and proving to them, that there would b at least > 1 pasenger on bord, who deserved a lesser chance than i did, in that > respect. > anyway. so if nothing else, we must be proactive in society, if only > to survive, and not be the last to be saved, if for no other reason. > smile. > > > On 3/4/14, avinash shahi wrote: >> I don't understand how they have drawn a Lakshman Rekha on 70 IQ >> level? And can intellectual disability be measured? very complex for >> me! >> Mar 4th 2014 15:22 by The Economist | WASHINGTON, DC >> >> http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2014/03/capital-punishment >> WHEN Bill Clinton was governor of Arkansas, he oversaw the execution >> of Ricky Ray Rector, a man so feebleminded that he said he would save >> the pecan pie from his last meal "for later". In 2002 the Supreme >> Court ruled that putting mentally retarded people to death was a >> "cruel and unusual" punishment, and therefore unconstitutional. But >> the justices left it up to the states to define retardation, and this >> has proven so difficult that on March 3rd the issue came before the >> Supreme Court again. >> >> A Florida man named Freddie Lee Hall (pictured) was convicted in 1978, >> along with an accomplice, for the rape and murder of a pregnant woman >> and the murder of a police officer. He was sentenced to death. His >> lawyers are appealing that he is too mentally incapacitated to be >> executed. >> >> >> For the bulk of the hour-long hearing, the justices quizzed Seth >> Waxman, representing Mr Hall, and Allen Winsor, Florida's >> solicitor-general, about the role of statistics in defining >> intellectual disability. Florida's test requires defendants to >> demonstrate both "significantly subaverage intellectual functioning" >> and impairments in "adaptive behaviour" like communicating and looking >> after oneself. Psychiatrists use a similar approach and, like Florida, >> consider an IQ score of 70 or below as indicative of mental >> disability. But unlike many states and against the medical consensus, >> Florida uses that score as a rigid cutoff point. Mr Hall's IQ in 2002 >> was 71, so Florida considers him eligible for execution. It refuses to >> consider other evidence of his disability. >> >> That is a very slim line between prison and death, but, as Justice >> Sonia Sotomayor said, "a line has to be drawn somewhere." The main >> question she and several justices pressed is whether Florida may >> ignore the "standard error of measurement" implicit in all >> intelligence tests. "It is universally accepted," Mr Waxman argued, >> "that persons with obtained scores of 71 to 75 can and often do have >> mental retardation" due to a five-point margin of error. The four >> liberal justices, along with the swing voter, Anthony Kennedy, were >> inclined to agree. "Your rule prevents us from getting a better >> understanding of whether that IQ score is accurate or not," Mr Kennedy >> admonished Mr Winsor. >> >> Not until the closing minutes of the hearing did anyone acknowledge >> the man's life hanging in the balance. Justice Stephen Breyer noted >> that Mr Hall "has been on death row for over 35 years". Justice >> Kennedy asked Mr Winsor if he considered Florida's brand of delayed >> justice to be "consistent with the purposes of the death penalty". >> This inquiry from Mr Kennedy had nothing to do with the narrow legal >> question of the day, but it betrayed his more general doubts about the >> way the Sunshine State puts people to death. >> >> Antonin Scalia, a conservative justice, was more hostile to Mr Hall's >> defence. He noted that it took ten years after his initial conviction >> for Mr Hall's lawyers to raise the issue of retardation. He added that >> the complexity of the crime--which involved hiding one victim's body in >> a wood--belies Mr Hall's pur
Re: [AI] Death for the mentally disabled | The Economist
seriously ya, the practice of mesuring inteligence using IQ tests itself, is extremely questionable. but what is most interesting, and important for all of us here, that your life and death is determined by people, based on how physically so called normal u r. i'm saying this, because i was recently on a flight, when an airhostess came to me to give me the usual rant of instructions, and she informed me, that in the event of an immergency evacuation, i will be the last person to be helped out of the plain. meanning that all the other normal people, who r more likely to positively contribute to society, will have a greater chance of survival than me, only because i'm less of an asset to humanity because of my blindness. i found this extremely amusing, and felt like spending my entire travel time, making a list of all the positive contributions made by my fellow-pasengers, and proving to them, that there would b at least 1 pasenger on bord, who deserved a lesser chance than i did, in that respect. anyway. so if nothing else, we must be proactive in society, if only to survive, and not be the last to be saved, if for no other reason. smile. On 3/4/14, avinash shahi wrote: > I don't understand how they have drawn a Lakshman Rekha on 70 IQ > level? And can intellectual disability be measured? very complex for > me! > Mar 4th 2014 15:22 by The Economist | WASHINGTON, DC > > http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2014/03/capital-punishment > WHEN Bill Clinton was governor of Arkansas, he oversaw the execution > of Ricky Ray Rector, a man so feebleminded that he said he would save > the pecan pie from his last meal "for later". In 2002 the Supreme > Court ruled that putting mentally retarded people to death was a > "cruel and unusual" punishment, and therefore unconstitutional. But > the justices left it up to the states to define retardation, and this > has proven so difficult that on March 3rd the issue came before the > Supreme Court again. > > A Florida man named Freddie Lee Hall (pictured) was convicted in 1978, > along with an accomplice, for the rape and murder of a pregnant woman > and the murder of a police officer. He was sentenced to death. His > lawyers are appealing that he is too mentally incapacitated to be > executed. > > > For the bulk of the hour-long hearing, the justices quizzed Seth > Waxman, representing Mr Hall, and Allen Winsor, Florida's > solicitor-general, about the role of statistics in defining > intellectual disability. Florida's test requires defendants to > demonstrate both "significantly subaverage intellectual functioning" > and impairments in "adaptive behaviour" like communicating and looking > after oneself. Psychiatrists use a similar approach and, like Florida, > consider an IQ score of 70 or below as indicative of mental > disability. But unlike many states and against the medical consensus, > Florida uses that score as a rigid cutoff point. Mr Hall's IQ in 2002 > was 71, so Florida considers him eligible for execution. It refuses to > consider other evidence of his disability. > > That is a very slim line between prison and death, but, as Justice > Sonia Sotomayor said, "a line has to be drawn somewhere." The main > question she and several justices pressed is whether Florida may > ignore the "standard error of measurement" implicit in all > intelligence tests. "It is universally accepted," Mr Waxman argued, > "that persons with obtained scores of 71 to 75 can and often do have > mental retardation" due to a five-point margin of error. The four > liberal justices, along with the swing voter, Anthony Kennedy, were > inclined to agree. "Your rule prevents us from getting a better > understanding of whether that IQ score is accurate or not," Mr Kennedy > admonished Mr Winsor. > > Not until the closing minutes of the hearing did anyone acknowledge > the man's life hanging in the balance. Justice Stephen Breyer noted > that Mr Hall "has been on death row for over 35 years". Justice > Kennedy asked Mr Winsor if he considered Florida's brand of delayed > justice to be "consistent with the purposes of the death penalty". > This inquiry from Mr Kennedy had nothing to do with the narrow legal > question of the day, but it betrayed his more general doubts about the > way the Sunshine State puts people to death. > > Antonin Scalia, a conservative justice, was more hostile to Mr Hall's > defence. He noted that it took ten years after his initial conviction > for Mr Hall's lawyers to raise the issue of retardation. He added that > the complexity of the crime--which involved hiding one victim's body in > a wood--belies Mr Hall's purported disability. The state might well > argue, Justice Scalia said, that Mr Hall "could not have pulled all of > this off" if he was really so intellectually impaired. This is an old > theme for Mr Scalia, who argued back in 2002 that the court's bar on > executing the mentally disabled would turn "the process of capital > trial into a game" wh
Re: [AI] Death for the mentally disabled | The Economist
Well, I don't know either. The good thing is that the public school systems are no longer using IQ scores to determine one's eligibility to receive Free and Appropriate Public Education (FAPE) under intellectual disability category, and the special education and related services are primarily based on adaptive functioning. Thank you. Sathiya. On 3/4/14, avinash shahi wrote: > I don't understand how they have drawn a Lakshman Rekha on 70 IQ > level? And can intellectual disability be measured? very complex for > me! > Mar 4th 2014 15:22 by The Economist | WASHINGTON, DC > > http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2014/03/capital-punishment > WHEN Bill Clinton was governor of Arkansas, he oversaw the execution > of Ricky Ray Rector, a man so feebleminded that he said he would save > the pecan pie from his last meal "for later". In 2002 the Supreme > Court ruled that putting mentally retarded people to death was a > "cruel and unusual" punishment, and therefore unconstitutional. But > the justices left it up to the states to define retardation, and this > has proven so difficult that on March 3rd the issue came before the > Supreme Court again. > > A Florida man named Freddie Lee Hall (pictured) was convicted in 1978, > along with an accomplice, for the rape and murder of a pregnant woman > and the murder of a police officer. He was sentenced to death. His > lawyers are appealing that he is too mentally incapacitated to be > executed. > > > For the bulk of the hour-long hearing, the justices quizzed Seth > Waxman, representing Mr Hall, and Allen Winsor, Florida's > solicitor-general, about the role of statistics in defining > intellectual disability. Florida's test requires defendants to > demonstrate both "significantly subaverage intellectual functioning" > and impairments in "adaptive behaviour" like communicating and looking > after oneself. Psychiatrists use a similar approach and, like Florida, > consider an IQ score of 70 or below as indicative of mental > disability. But unlike many states and against the medical consensus, > Florida uses that score as a rigid cutoff point. Mr Hall's IQ in 2002 > was 71, so Florida considers him eligible for execution. It refuses to > consider other evidence of his disability. > > That is a very slim line between prison and death, but, as Justice > Sonia Sotomayor said, "a line has to be drawn somewhere." The main > question she and several justices pressed is whether Florida may > ignore the "standard error of measurement" implicit in all > intelligence tests. "It is universally accepted," Mr Waxman argued, > "that persons with obtained scores of 71 to 75 can and often do have > mental retardation" due to a five-point margin of error. The four > liberal justices, along with the swing voter, Anthony Kennedy, were > inclined to agree. "Your rule prevents us from getting a better > understanding of whether that IQ score is accurate or not," Mr Kennedy > admonished Mr Winsor. > > Not until the closing minutes of the hearing did anyone acknowledge > the man's life hanging in the balance. Justice Stephen Breyer noted > that Mr Hall "has been on death row for over 35 years". Justice > Kennedy asked Mr Winsor if he considered Florida's brand of delayed > justice to be "consistent with the purposes of the death penalty". > This inquiry from Mr Kennedy had nothing to do with the narrow legal > question of the day, but it betrayed his more general doubts about the > way the Sunshine State puts people to death. > > Antonin Scalia, a conservative justice, was more hostile to Mr Hall's > defence. He noted that it took ten years after his initial conviction > for Mr Hall's lawyers to raise the issue of retardation. He added that > the complexity of the crime--which involved hiding one victim's body in > a wood--belies Mr Hall's purported disability. The state might well > argue, Justice Scalia said, that Mr Hall "could not have pulled all of > this off" if he was really so intellectually impaired. This is an old > theme for Mr Scalia, who argued back in 2002 that the court's bar on > executing the mentally disabled would turn "the process of capital > trial into a game" where murderers "feign mental retardation" to avoid > the death penalty. > > Justice Elena Kagan cut to the chase late in the proceedings: "Can I > just ask," she said to Mr Winsor, "why you have this policy?" > Initially flummoxed, Mr Winsor replied: "Florida has an interest in > ensuring that the people who evade execution because of mental > retardation are people who are, in fact, mentally retarded." Raising > the IQ cutoff to 75 to take account of the margin of error, he said, > "would double the number of people who are eligible for > the...exemption." In other words, Florida wants to execute more > people, and therefore uses the most rigid definition of retardation > that it can get away with. It probably won't get away with it for much > longer. > > -- > Avinash Shahi > M.Phil Research Scholar >
[AI] Death for the mentally disabled | The Economist
I don't understand how they have drawn a Lakshman Rekha on 70 IQ level? And can intellectual disability be measured? very complex for me! Mar 4th 2014 15:22 by The Economist | WASHINGTON, DC http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2014/03/capital-punishment WHEN Bill Clinton was governor of Arkansas, he oversaw the execution of Ricky Ray Rector, a man so feebleminded that he said he would save the pecan pie from his last meal "for later". In 2002 the Supreme Court ruled that putting mentally retarded people to death was a "cruel and unusual" punishment, and therefore unconstitutional. But the justices left it up to the states to define retardation, and this has proven so difficult that on March 3rd the issue came before the Supreme Court again. A Florida man named Freddie Lee Hall (pictured) was convicted in 1978, along with an accomplice, for the rape and murder of a pregnant woman and the murder of a police officer. He was sentenced to death. His lawyers are appealing that he is too mentally incapacitated to be executed. For the bulk of the hour-long hearing, the justices quizzed Seth Waxman, representing Mr Hall, and Allen Winsor, Florida's solicitor-general, about the role of statistics in defining intellectual disability. Florida's test requires defendants to demonstrate both "significantly subaverage intellectual functioning" and impairments in "adaptive behaviour" like communicating and looking after oneself. Psychiatrists use a similar approach and, like Florida, consider an IQ score of 70 or below as indicative of mental disability. But unlike many states and against the medical consensus, Florida uses that score as a rigid cutoff point. Mr Hall's IQ in 2002 was 71, so Florida considers him eligible for execution. It refuses to consider other evidence of his disability. That is a very slim line between prison and death, but, as Justice Sonia Sotomayor said, "a line has to be drawn somewhere." The main question she and several justices pressed is whether Florida may ignore the "standard error of measurement" implicit in all intelligence tests. "It is universally accepted," Mr Waxman argued, "that persons with obtained scores of 71 to 75 can and often do have mental retardation" due to a five-point margin of error. The four liberal justices, along with the swing voter, Anthony Kennedy, were inclined to agree. "Your rule prevents us from getting a better understanding of whether that IQ score is accurate or not," Mr Kennedy admonished Mr Winsor. Not until the closing minutes of the hearing did anyone acknowledge the man's life hanging in the balance. Justice Stephen Breyer noted that Mr Hall "has been on death row for over 35 years". Justice Kennedy asked Mr Winsor if he considered Florida's brand of delayed justice to be "consistent with the purposes of the death penalty". This inquiry from Mr Kennedy had nothing to do with the narrow legal question of the day, but it betrayed his more general doubts about the way the Sunshine State puts people to death. Antonin Scalia, a conservative justice, was more hostile to Mr Hall's defence. He noted that it took ten years after his initial conviction for Mr Hall's lawyers to raise the issue of retardation. He added that the complexity of the crime--which involved hiding one victim's body in a wood--belies Mr Hall's purported disability. The state might well argue, Justice Scalia said, that Mr Hall "could not have pulled all of this off" if he was really so intellectually impaired. This is an old theme for Mr Scalia, who argued back in 2002 that the court's bar on executing the mentally disabled would turn "the process of capital trial into a game" where murderers "feign mental retardation" to avoid the death penalty. Justice Elena Kagan cut to the chase late in the proceedings: "Can I just ask," she said to Mr Winsor, "why you have this policy?" Initially flummoxed, Mr Winsor replied: "Florida has an interest in ensuring that the people who evade execution because of mental retardation are people who are, in fact, mentally retarded." Raising the IQ cutoff to 75 to take account of the margin of error, he said, "would double the number of people who are eligible for the...exemption." In other words, Florida wants to execute more people, and therefore uses the most rigid definition of retardation that it can get away with. It probably won't get away with it for much longer. -- Avinash Shahi M.Phil Research Scholar Centre for The Study of Law and Governance Jawaharlal Nehru University New Delhi India Register at the dedicated AccessIndia list for discussing accessibility of mobile phones / Tabs on: http://mail.accessindia.org.in/mailman/listinfo/mobile.accessindia_accessindia.org.in Search for old postings at: http://www.mail-archive.com/accessindia@accessindia.org.in/ To unsubscribe send a message to accessindia-requ...@accessindia.org.in with the subject unsubscribe. To change your subscription to digest mode or make any other chang
