Re: [AFMUG] Used Juniper

[Dev]

They basically last forever, more or less, and you can plop the old config into 
a shelf spare in case you brick your other box, pretty hard to beat. Online 
forum support is pretty good, and you can get any number of contractors to help 
you get unstuck if you can get your routing to behave.

> On Jan 10, 2024, at 6:53 PM, Jason McKemie  
> wrote:
> 
> Is this worth looking at or is it too problematic from a support / update 
> perspective? New Juniper is not in my budget.
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Re: [AFMUG] Cisco Licensing

[Dev]

I’ve seen firewall folks upselling security feeds as add-ons, but when it comes 
to paywalling critical exploitable vulnerabilies, that feels more like 
exploitation by deliberate omission if you ‘choose’ not to spend a nice 
vacation’s pay to get back on their support treadmill so bad guys don’t flatten 
your network and demand a ransom. Some ransoms are more legal than others. 
Better support too - maybe.

> On Mar 15, 2023, at 5:32 PM, Mark Radabaugh  wrote:
> 
> I think you are going to find Juniper heading in that direction as well.
> 
> Take a look at white box hardware like UfiSpace or EdgeCore and software like 
> IPInfusion.   Long term I think you might be happier.
> 
> Mark
> 
>> On Mar 15, 2023, at 8:22 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> And that's why we're switching to juniper.
>> 
>> Cisco has moved to a model where the software and hardware are licensed or 
>> sold separately on most platforms and the software is subscription based.
>> 
>> Not sure what the situation is with the 3660, but some revert to very basic 
>> functionality.   
>> 
>> On Wed, Mar 15, 2023, 4:08 PM Nate Burke > > wrote:
>> I just picked up a used Cisco 3650 switch off Ebay because I needed 48 
>> POE ports that can do Vlans on the cheap.  When I go into the 
>> 'Licensing' screen through the browser, it shows Authorization Status 
>> 'EVAL MODE' with a 90 day countdown timer.  Will the switch stop working 
>> after 90 days?  I haven't used anything Cisco in a long time.  3500 
>> switches were the last thing I dabbled with.
>> 
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Re: [AFMUG] Cisco Licensing

[Dev]

Cisco is like buying a car a piece at a time. Oh, you want the steering wheel? 
For all of Mikrotik’s - Mikrotik-ness, they come preloaded with all the things. 
I have a 3650 that’s sort of just working, but there was some weird update I 
needed for doing OSPF or some such, can’t recall. Also, Cisco threatens its own 
customers if ‘gasp’ you fall out of an active support contract, reinstatement 
fees equal to a year of college or something.

Juniper has been lovely, therefore took market from Cisco, hopefully they will 
stay relatively lovely, time will tell.

> On Mar 15, 2023, at 5:22 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) 
>  wrote:
> 
> And that's why we're switching to juniper.
> 
> Cisco has moved to a model where the software and hardware are licensed or 
> sold separately on most platforms and the software is subscription based.
> 
> Not sure what the situation is with the 3660, but some revert to very basic 
> functionality.   
> 
> On Wed, Mar 15, 2023, 4:08 PM Nate Burke  > wrote:
> I just picked up a used Cisco 3650 switch off Ebay because I needed 48 
> POE ports that can do Vlans on the cheap.  When I go into the 
> 'Licensing' screen through the browser, it shows Authorization Status 
> 'EVAL MODE' with a 90 day countdown timer.  Will the switch stop working 
> after 90 days?  I haven't used anything Cisco in a long time.  3500 
> switches were the last thing I dabbled with.
> 
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[AFMUG] CPE management via TR-069?

[Dev]

Looking to implement TR-069 management for customer routers, but hoping not to 
get locked into a vendor, so looking at openacs and libreacs server 
implementations on Debian with mysql/postgresql backends. Anyone tried this? It 
would be nice for automated provisioning. If no one has tried I can test it, 
but wanted to see if someone has already.
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[AFMUG] Juniper SRX / Cisco ASA alternative?

[Dev]

What is the equivalent in Brocade / Arista / whatever-not-mikrotik that people 
are using? Both Juniper and Cisco have their weird quirks, wondering what other 
options are out there.
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[AFMUG] Ignitenet MTU size for VLAN's

[Dev]

I’m trying (unsuccessfully) to pass VLAN-tagged traffic across a Metrolinq 
60GHz link. It will pass non-VLAN traffic fine. Has anyone had this issue? The 
standard MTU is 1540, has anyone had to raise that (and to what) to make VLAN 
traffic work? They say they support up to 7912, but I’m not sure what might 
break experimenting here. My link is running live traffic.
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Re: [AFMUG] OT fired a guy today

[Dev]

Good riddance probably, the longer a toxic employee stays the worst it gets 
usually, and it spreads to less toxic folks.

> On Apr 22, 2021, at 3:49 PM, Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:
> 
> He had worked for about 3 months.  Learned his job quickly.  High performer.  
> But he started acting like a boss, chewing coworkers ass etc.  Damaged a 
> vehicle and acted like it was no big deal.  Got a write up.  Started having 
> absentee issues.
>  
> Today his supervisor tried to administer some corrective action.  They guy 
> said two things:  “every one of these guys is a total idiot” and when asked 
> what things he could do to improve: “nothing, can’t think of a single thing”. 
>  Copped an attitude for about the 5th time.  So the supervisor said he was 
> done, someone would give him a ride at the end of the shift.  He started 
> throwing around the his lawyer was going to contacting us.  He was going to 
> sue the company, sue the supervisor etc. 
>  
> Then he came back to the supervisor and told him it was a racial issue.  I 
> have no clue what race this guy is.  Hair and beard is black.  If I had to 
> guess, he was Italian.  Most of my crew has some shade of brown.  I actually 
> prefer that. 
>  
> He was one of those guys that worked an average of 9 months at the last 5 
> jobs he worked. 
>  
> Dang, he could have been one of the good ones.  Toxic employee though.  I 
> value the lack of drama more than almost anything else. 
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[AFMUG] Mikrotik GPEN?

[Dev]

I see their new GPEN MDU “replacement” for GPON, anyone using these devices? 
Really cheap, interesting concept, and they’re not UBNT. Also, they’re not 10K 
for an OLT.
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Re: [AFMUG] Splicer purchase

[Dev]

Fujikura 40 S, used to be a ton of money, you can get one used sub $1500, good 
quality if you don’t want a cheap Chinese unit. The convenience alone will 
probably make you happier than you were before.

> On Apr 4, 2021, at 7:26 PM, Steve Jones  wrote:
> 
> Since fusion splicers arent 5 figures anymore, how close to becoming a 
> standard shop tool are these.
> 
> Depending on circumstances we will pay 20 to 70 per splice. In it's own, 
> relatively cheap, but then theres setup fees, trip charge, etc. 
> 
> I'm at a point where I dont see the process being much more tech savvy than 
> an rj45 with as dummy proof as splicers are now. Probably actually less 
> inclined for error with the machines doing all the work.
> 
> We bought 8 licences links, none of the premade cables were spot on, 2 were 
> short. 
> 
> I'm just looking for any reason not to get one, but I really dont see why 
> splicing isnt something we arent doing in house.
> 
> Techs break every tool they see being the only thing
> 
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[AFMUG] core drill recommendations?

[Dev]

Looking at various models, what have you found that works? I’m looking at the 
Bluerock 8” Z1, not sure what the best water system is either.
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[AFMUG] because the cloud is always secure

[Dev]

except UBNT “cloud” that is:

https://krebsonsecurity.com/2021/03/whistleblower-ubiquiti-breach-catastrophic/

Sad most of the vendors are forcing WISP operators’ customer data to the cloud, 
getting rid of software you actually own, and promising we don’t need to be 
worried about security.

Bollocks.
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Re: [AFMUG] VPN issues

[Dev]

Did they blame you for breaking their cable when you hooked up to it? :)

We had a customer who’s cat ate a switch power cord - they insisted it wasn’t 
their cat. We swapped it and the cat ate the new one shortly thereafter. 
Somehow I recall them thinking we caused it in some manner, their cat wouldn’t 
dare think of it apparently. Nevermind the other cat chew marks on surrounding 
areas.

> On Mar 22, 2021, at 12:28 PM, Mark - Myakka Technologies  
> wrote:
> 
> UPDATE
> 
> I couldn't take the whining and crying about the VPN being down.  Remote IT 
> guys 100% sure it is my issue (must be blocking port 443).  Customer 100% I 
> changed something. So, I gathered my testing equipment and headed on out.  
> Well both IT guy and customer never mentioned that the VPN appliance is 
> connected to their router via a 100' CAT5e cable run on the floor across the 
> house.  They did at least have it tape down in places.  When I tried to 
> connect my notebook using the cable, I got no connection.  Pulled out the old 
> CAT5 tester and only 3 or of 8 lit up.  Replaced the cable and guess what, 
> VPN now working.
> 
> 
> --
> Best regards,
> Markmailto:m...@mailmt.com 
> <mailto:m...@mailmt.com>
> 
> Myakka Technologies, Inc.
> www.Myakka.com <http://www.myakka.com/>
> 
> --
> 
> Thursday, March 18, 2021, 1:37:08 PM, you wrote:
> 
> 
> I'm working a very similar issue right now.  I think I have tracked it down 
> to an issue with a single upstream connection, and it looks like it's doing 
> something with fragmenting/dropping large packets.  Doing a packet capture, 
> it looks like the VPN setup packet is about 2062 bytes in size, and it's not 
> getting to the other end.  ICMP Packets will flow regardless of size (of 
> course fragmenting)  If I route the traffic over any of my other upstreams, 
> it works fine.  I have a ticket open with this upstream, but getting them to 
> understand what the issue is has been cumbersome.
> On 3/18/2021 12:27 PM, Dev wrote:
> 
> Do you have other customers with similar config/topology where you can test, 
> maybe who hit the same VPN server? PCAP’s aside, VPN’s don’t usually like NAT 
> and firewall changes, but you have to divide and conquer to track down VPN 
> issues often because the error reporting is vague at best typically. 
> 
> 
> On Mar 17, 2021, at 8:40 AM, Mark - Myakka Technologies  <mailto:m...@mailmt.com>> wrote:
> 
> Re: [AFMUG] VPN issues 
> Bill,
> 
> Well that is the issue.  Could be anything.  Been working fine since June.  I 
> have many many more people using VPN's with no issues.
> 
> But there is an issue on her link.  This is a fiber link BTW.  Her Internet 
> works fine.
> 
> Her IT guys have washed their hands of it, pushing it all on me.  Not sure 
> how I'm going to figure it out being I don't know what appliance she is using 
> yet.  Even when I get that info, I'll have no access to it.  Doubt they are 
> going to give me admin privileges on their equipment.  Also, I don't get the 
> opportunity to see what errors are showing up on server logs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> Best regards,
> Markmailto:m...@mailmt.com 
> <mailto:m...@mailmt.com>
> 
> Myakka Technologies, Inc.
> www.Myakka.com <http://www.myakka.com/>
> 
> --
> 
> Wednesday, March 17, 2021, 11:27:35 AM, you wrote:
> 
> 
> I would suspect maybe segmentation issues. Sometimes segment boundaries can 
> mess with a VPN.
> 
> bp
> 
> On 3/17/2021 7:50 AM, Mark - Myakka Technologies wrote:
> 
> I  have  a  customer  that  has  some type of VPN router device on our
> system.   Her VPN isn't working anymore.  Her Internet is fine.  I did
> a  packet  capture  for her IT guys and sent it to them.  Their answer
> is  the  usual  "It's  your  ISPs fault".  I'm not a VPN expert, but I
> attached the filtered packet dump.  Looks like things are talking back
> and forth.  Any issues anyone can see?
> 
> 
> --
> 
> Thanks,
> Mark  mailto:m...@mailmt.com <mailto:m...@mailmt.com>
> 
> Myakka Technologies, Inc.
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Re: [AFMUG] VPN issues

[Dev]

Do you have other customers with similar config/topology where you can test, 
maybe who hit the same VPN server? PCAP’s aside, VPN’s don’t usually like NAT 
and firewall changes, but you have to divide and conquer to track down VPN 
issues often because the error reporting is vague at best typically. 

> On Mar 17, 2021, at 8:40 AM, Mark - Myakka Technologies  
> wrote:
> 
> Bill,
> 
> Well that is the issue.  Could be anything.  Been working fine since June.  I 
> have many many more people using VPN's with no issues.
> 
> But there is an issue on her link.  This is a fiber link BTW.  Her Internet 
> works fine.
> 
> Her IT guys have washed their hands of it, pushing it all on me.  Not sure 
> how I'm going to figure it out being I don't know what appliance she is using 
> yet.  Even when I get that info, I'll have no access to it.  Doubt they are 
> going to give me admin privileges on their equipment.  Also, I don't get the 
> opportunity to see what errors are showing up on server logs.
> 
>  
> 
> 
> --
> Best regards,
> Markmailto:m...@mailmt.com 
> 
> 
> Myakka Technologies, Inc.
> www.Myakka.com 
> 
> --
> 
> Wednesday, March 17, 2021, 11:27:35 AM, you wrote:
> 
> 
> I would suspect maybe segmentation issues. Sometimes segment boundaries can 
> mess with a VPN.
> 
> bp
> 
> On 3/17/2021 7:50 AM, Mark - Myakka Technologies wrote:
> 
> I  have  a  customer  that  has  some type of VPN router device on our
> system.   Her VPN isn't working anymore.  Her Internet is fine.  I did
> a  packet  capture  for her IT guys and sent it to them.  Their answer
> is  the  usual  "It's  your  ISPs fault".  I'm not a VPN expert, but I
> attached the filtered packet dump.  Looks like things are talking back
> and forth.  Any issues anyone can see?
> 
> 
> --
> 
> Thanks,
> Mark  mailto:m...@mailmt.com 
> 
> Myakka Technologies, Inc.
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Re: [AFMUG] good inexpensive OTDR

[Dev]

I’m wondering how often you’d really need CWDM wavelengths to traverse 
splitters, or whether you can mostly get by with 1310/1550? It would save a ton 
of money.

> On Mar 11, 2021, at 6:15 AM, Josh Luthman  wrote:
> 
> Our cheap China one seems to be OK. After the launch cable was purchased, it 
> definitely works for where we tested it.  We have not had to locate any 
> damage.
> 
> We use it as a VFL pretty frequently.
> 
> Josh Luthman
> 24/7 Help Desk: 937-552-2340
> Direct: 937-552-2343
> 1100 Wayne St
> Suite 1337
> Troy, OH 45373
> 
> 
> On Wed, Mar 10, 2021 at 7:18 PM Jim Bouse [Brazos WiFi]  <mailto:j...@brazoswifi.com>> wrote:
> We have a $1000 one from china. It works well enough. 
> 
> We have located every fault we ever needed to find with it. 
> 
> Jim
> 
> 
> 
> Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S8 Active, an AT 5G Evolution capable smartphone
> 
> 
> 
>  Original message 
> From: Dev mailto:d...@logicalwebhost.com>>
> Date: 3/10/21 6:14 PM (GMT-06:00)
> To: AF@af.afmug.com <mailto:AF@af.afmug.com>
> Subject: [AFMUG] good inexpensive OTDR
> 
> I’m seeing prices for about $7600, seems like a lot. I’m guessing you can get 
> a cheap Chinese one somewhere, but are they workable or flaming piles of junk?
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Re: [AFMUG] good inexpensive OTDR

[Dev]

Is it better to get a new Chinese unit, or used JDSU, EXFO, Anritsu or similar? 
Are there any used models that are good quality and still would work well that 
someone can recommend?

> On Mar 10, 2021, at 4:16 PM, Jim Bouse [Brazos WiFi]  
> wrote:
> 
> We have a $1000 one from china. It works well enough. 
> 
> We have located every fault we ever needed to find with it. 
> 
> Jim
> 
> 
> 
> Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S8 Active, an AT 5G Evolution capable smartphone
> 
> 
> 
>  Original message 
> From: Dev  
> Date: 3/10/21 6:14 PM (GMT-06:00) 
> To: AF@af.afmug.com 
> Subject: [AFMUG] good inexpensive OTDR 
> 
> I’m seeing prices for about $7600, seems like a lot. I’m guessing you can get 
> a cheap Chinese one somewhere, but are they workable or flaming piles of junk?
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[AFMUG] good inexpensive OTDR

[Dev]

I’m seeing prices for about $7600, seems like a lot. I’m guessing you can get a 
cheap Chinese one somewhere, but are they workable or flaming piles of junk?
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Re: [AFMUG] Grafana

[Dev]

Very much yes, but some heavy lifting might be required. Sometimes you can get 
it integrated as an add-on on an ELK stack distro (Elastic 
Search/Logstash/Kibahna) you can just download and install on some hardware. It 
can give you a ton of info about logs, trends, security info. etc. and graph in 
nice dashboard format. Can be memory intensive. Very heavily under continual 
development so new hacks contributed frequently. It’s made to do lots of things 
besides what you plan to do with it, so some staging and triage may be 
required. Some care and feeding required, but it does cool stuff.

> On Mar 5, 2021, at 12:14 PM, Adam Moffett  wrote:
> 
> Is Grafana worth playing with?  Somebody showed it to me awhile ago, but I 
> never got around to trying it out.
> 
> 
> 
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[AFMUG] Starlink speeds dip already

[Dev]

Already hearing from folks who have the service that they’re seeing dips below 
15Mbps, and this at light loads with few customers, we’ll see how this scales. 
Or doesn’t. Are others in different geographies seeing similar?
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Re: [AFMUG] Wireless Wire Dish @ 1km

[Dev]

700 meter Ignitenet MetroLinq PTP60-35 running around -48dbm during clear day 
says it will do >2.5Gbps with this RSSI, these things do a ton of bandwidth. It 
hangs in there surprisingly well during rain unless it’s really DUMPING rain. I 
think during normal or heavy rain it’s still in the mid to high 50’s. Doesn’t 
seem to use the 5GHz backup much, but traffic drops off fast when you do. I 
have another link doing 1.3km, much worse in heavy rain, but very impressive 
throughput when it’s not raining, surprisingly. 

> On Feb 19, 2021, at 11:51 AM, Steve Jones  wrote:
> 
> We havent dealt with 60ghz other than as an outside contractor so ive never 
> looked at performance directly. At 1 km what kind of fade are we talking in a 
> normal rain shower, and in a downpour?
> We have had pretty good luck with af24 over the years but need more capacity, 
> the fade in 60ghz concerns me, and I never understood the 60 ghz ones with 
> 5ghz backup. its like a cruise ship having a backup canoe
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Re: [AFMUG] Does anyone other than Onan make a decent mounted gas generator?

[Dev]

Had good luck with Kohler, but still hard to beat the little Hondas, they run 
for 6-9 hours on a tank and are super quiet.

> On Feb 17, 2021, at 11:38 AM, Mark Radabaugh  wrote:
> 
> I have had it with the piece of shit Onan generator on the fiber trailer.   
> If the splicing trailer didn’t have a built in fuel tank I would just strap a 
> Honda on and be done with it, but I would prefer something with a fuel pump.  
>  
> 
> Mark
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[AFMUG] epmp force 425 current throughput

[Dev]

Spec sheet says they run 4.9-6.135GHz, but also: "Support of 5870 to 6135 
coming in a future software upgrade". So will there be different radios once 
6GHz happens that take more advantage of higher 6GHz, or are these slated to 
eventually go higher in that band without new hardware?

Assuming they’re just 5GHz radios for now, is there a speed advantage on a 
20MHz channel over a Force 300 PtP in currently usable US bands, or some other 
advantage?
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Re: [AFMUG] 8-12 SFP port non-MT switch?

[Dev]

He feels they’re flaky. My experience is that they sometimes do inexplicable 
things. If you get them to work they work fine, but Juniper works always 
basically. I have a CCR I’m fighting with port rate limiting, which is 
“supposed” to work but does nothing. No help on the forums besides “hey, that’s 
really interesting”, stuff like that. If you get MT support it costs the same 
as Juniper/Cisco from what I’ve found. At that point, you could just get a 
Juniper/Cisco.

> On Feb 3, 2021, at 3:02 PM, Steve Jones  wrote:
> 
> whats the aversion to MT? we are looking for something similar and I dont 
> know that im comfortable with MT, but i dont have a valid reason other than 
> gut feeling for the distrust
> 
> On Wed, Feb 3, 2021 at 4:47 PM Darren Shea  <mailto:darr...@ecpi.com>> wrote:
> We've had pretty good luck with the Dell X4012 switch - 12 SFP+ ports, decent 
> GUI, easy to set up with VLANs, but they aren't fanless.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com <mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>] On 
> Behalf Of Dev
> Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2021 11:17 AM
> To: AF@af.afmug.com <mailto:AF@af.afmug.com>
> Subject: [AFMUG] 8-12 SFP port non-MT switch?
> 
> I have a friend looking for a fanless 8-12 SFP cage switch/router, 
> preferrably with a single 10G SFP uplink interface, something smaller than 
> rack mount and not Mikrotik to mount in remote cabinets where he needs more 
> fiber out of a single backhaul strand. Any suggestions? He’s looking at 
> Juniper, etc. but hasn’t found a match.
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[AFMUG] 8-12 SFP port non-MT switch?

[Dev]

I have a friend looking for a fanless 8-12 SFP cage switch/router, preferrably 
with a single 10G SFP uplink interface, something smaller than rack mount and 
not Mikrotik to mount in remote cabinets where he needs more fiber out of a 
single backhaul strand. Any suggestions? He’s looking at Juniper, etc. but 
hasn’t found a match.
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Re: [AFMUG] how much is an easement worth?

[Dev]

I was actually thinking about their ability to sub-lease with a 4” conduit, 
which makes me nervous.

Asking for space on some of their towers might be a good idea. I still think 
having a rental vs. them owning it would be better, though I still don’t know 
what to charge for rent.  We’re in an economically depressed area, so probably 
lower than Manhattan, but they can’t really claim they’re a poor struggling 
giant company :)

> On Jan 25, 2021, at 11:09 AM, Bill Prince  wrote:
> 
> It probably depends on more factors than we might be able to assess from our 
> vantage point. Around here, property values are what most people would 
> consider "over the top", so translating that to somewhere else would be 
> problematic. There would also be the issue of who and/or how many subscribers 
> they might be able to access given the availability of the easement. Another 
> issue would be what kind of competition would you ge giving them.
> 
> 
> 
> --
> bp
> part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com
> 
> 
> On Mon, Jan 25, 2021 at 10:29 AM Dev  <mailto:d...@logicalwebhost.com>> wrote:
> Cell company wants one across 700 feet of our property to a tower they can’t 
> otherwise access to convert to fiber backhaul. I suggested drilling some 
> conduit for them. They said they wanted 4” conduit. They want a quote to buy 
> the easement, I would prefer to rent conduit/access, what are reasonable 
> prices for either/both (or other things I should be aware of)?
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[AFMUG] how much is an easement worth?

[Dev]

Cell company wants one across 700 feet of our property to a tower they can’t 
otherwise access to convert to fiber backhaul. I suggested drilling some 
conduit for them. They said they wanted 4” conduit. They want a quote to buy 
the easement, I would prefer to rent conduit/access, what are reasonable prices 
for either/both (or other things I should be aware of)?
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Re: [AFMUG] DDOS on cgnat

[Dev]

If you do BGP you can send it to a black hole, otherwise if the link is truly 
saturated and unusable, you’ll probably be talking upstream to someone who can 
help. Later you can buy proxy scrubbing services or get an Arbor box, but that 
probably doesn’t help you now.

> On Jan 20, 2021, at 3:55 PM, Matt Hoppes  
> wrote:
> 
> Any ideas how to mitigate DDOS attacks when you’re on CGNAT with maybe 100 
> people behind one IP concentrator?
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Re: [AFMUG] PTZ Camera

[Dev]

Amcrest are $100-200 or so as I recall, so the price is pretty good and they 
perform surprisingly well. Not sure what you'd get for the extra $1K, but there 
may well be a reason or five.

> On Jan 20, 2021, at 2:33 PM, Jaime Solorza  wrote:
> 
> Yep
> 
> On Wed, Jan 20, 2021, 3:32 PM TJ Trout  <mailto:t...@voltbb.com>> wrote:
> Mikrotik vs juniper 
> 
> On Wed, Jan 20, 2021, 2:19 PM Robert Andrews  <mailto:i...@avantwireless.com>> wrote:
> Interesting.   The 20x Sunba eco is only $194  25x is $359.
> 
> On 01/20/2021 02:05 PM, Jaime Solorza wrote:
> > I installed an awesome 30x zoom PTZ speed dome this past Monday...it's a 
> > Hikvision and was $1100.00..
> > 
> > Compare
> > 
> > On Wed, Jan 20, 2021, 2:40 PM Dev  > <mailto:d...@logicalwebhost.com> 
> > <mailto:d...@logicalwebhost.com <mailto:d...@logicalwebhost.com>>> wrote:
> > 
> > Amcrest seems to have pretty good ones priced reasonably, integrate
> > either with their cloud or on-prem using things like zoneminder, or
> > just FTP archive you manage some other way. Decent low-light, have
> > tried dome and POV, don’t know about pan.

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Re: [AFMUG] PTZ Camera

[Dev]

Amcrest seems to have pretty good ones priced reasonably, integrate either with 
their cloud or on-prem using things like zoneminder, or just FTP archive you 
manage some other way. Decent low-light, have tried dome and POV, don’t know 
about pan.

> On Jan 19, 2021, at 5:05 PM, Mark - Myakka Technologies  
> wrote:
> 
> Looking  for a PTZ camera that can record to a NVR.  Camera will be on
> different network than the NVR.
> 
> Not  even  sure  where  to  start.  Looks like some of the NAS servers
> (ONAP,  etc.)  may  be  an option for the NVR.  But need a PTZ that is
> compatible with that and can be at a remote site.
> 
> 
> --
> 
> Thanks,
> Mark  mailto:m...@mailmt.com
> 
> Myakka Technologies, Inc.
> www.Myakka.com
> 
> 
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Re: [AFMUG] who owns conduit in private neighborhood?

[Dev]

Some full, most empty. The current development doesn’t even want them in there, 
poor service for over a decade, etc. Can he kick them out?

> On Jan 18, 2021, at 3:26 PM, Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:
> 
> No harm.  Is the conduit empty?
> 
> -Original Message- From: Dev
> Sent: Monday, January 18, 2021 4:09 PM
> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] who owns conduit in private neighborhood?
> 
> The current owner bought the development from the former owner who originally 
> installed the conduit at the prior owner’s expense. There’s nothing on the 
> title that says the ILEC owns anything, just that there’s a PUE. It is super 
> doubtful (unprovable) the owner of the conduit ever assigned it to the ILEC, 
> or has an agreement that gives them access to the private development 
> specifically, other than a general PUE. If the conduit is shared without 
> interfering with the ILEC’s operation, is there harm?
> 
>> On Jan 18, 2021, at 12:49 PM, Mark Radabaugh  wrote:
>> 
>> That situation is a bit of a gray area and would probably end up depending 
>> on the specific wording in the plat map and the state you are in, so 
>> comments are pretty general.
>> 
>> If it’s platted as a utility easement and you qualify as a public utility 
>> (again, depends on your state and specific situation) then you have every 
>> right to be in the easement.   As to occupying a duct some other utility 
>> installed?  Probably not.   You can add your own duct if  you like but I 
>> wouldn’t think you have any right to occupy the other utilities duct. Answer 
>> is obviously different if the developer supplied the conduit or there was 
>> language in a contract saying otherwise.
>> 
>> As usual, advice from an engineer about legal questions is worthless :-) Ask 
>> an attorney!
>> 
>> Mark
>> 
>>> On Jan 18, 2021, at 3:14 PM, Dev  wrote:
>>> 
>>> In a Public Utility Easement (PUE) in a private neighborhood, the developer 
>>> says he owns it, but the ILEC is acting like they do. Doubtful ILEC can 
>>> produce a document that says they do. The ILEC has a little bit of outside 
>>> plant in a large conduit, anything to stop others from pulling fiber 
>>> through that same conduit as long as they don’t interfere?
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>> 
>> 
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Re: [AFMUG] who owns conduit in private neighborhood?

[Dev]

The current owner bought the development from the former owner who originally 
installed the conduit at the prior owner’s expense. There’s nothing on the 
title that says the ILEC owns anything, just that there’s a PUE. It is super 
doubtful (unprovable) the owner of the conduit ever assigned it to the ILEC, or 
has an agreement that gives them access to the private development 
specifically, other than a general PUE. If the conduit is shared without 
interfering with the ILEC’s operation, is there harm?

> On Jan 18, 2021, at 12:49 PM, Mark Radabaugh  wrote:
> 
> That situation is a bit of a gray area and would probably end up depending on 
> the specific wording in the plat map and the state you are in, so comments 
> are pretty general.
> 
> If it’s platted as a utility easement and you qualify as a public utility 
> (again, depends on your state and specific situation) then you have every 
> right to be in the easement.   As to occupying a duct some other utility 
> installed?  Probably not.   You can add your own duct if  you like but I 
> wouldn’t think you have any right to occupy the other utilities duct.   
> Answer is obviously different if the developer supplied the conduit or there 
> was language in a contract saying otherwise.
> 
> As usual, advice from an engineer about legal questions is worthless :-)   
> Ask an attorney!
> 
> Mark
> 
>> On Jan 18, 2021, at 3:14 PM, Dev  wrote:
>> 
>> In a Public Utility Easement (PUE) in a private neighborhood, the developer 
>> says he owns it, but the ILEC is acting like they do. Doubtful ILEC can 
>> produce a document that says they do. The ILEC has a little bit of outside 
>> plant in a large conduit, anything to stop others from pulling fiber through 
>> that same conduit as long as they don’t interfere?
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Re: [AFMUG] router programming

[Dev]

Even used Juniper gear will lead to far less sleepless nights than MT, a lot 
easier to find experts too. And they’re just…less Mikrotiky. People are 
surprised when Mikrotik works, people are surprised when Juniper doesn’t, 
that’s the difference.

> On Jan 18, 2021, at 8:24 AM, Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:
> 
> I use it for my FTTH delivery system.  GPON. 
>  
> From: Josh Baird <>
> Sent: Monday, January 18, 2021 9:19 AM

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[AFMUG] who owns conduit in private neighborhood?

[Dev]

In a Public Utility Easement (PUE) in a private neighborhood, the developer 
says he owns it, but the ILEC is acting like they do. Doubtful ILEC can produce 
a document that says they do. The ILEC has a little bit of outside plant in a 
large conduit, anything to stop others from pulling fiber through that same 
conduit as long as they don’t interfere?
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Re: [AFMUG] OT: Buying land

[Dev]

Keywords are “open and defiant” use for adverse possession, different states 
have various lengths until you can legally take possession.

BTW, we live off grid in the woods, built everything ourselves (roads, water, 
septic, power, and uh, internet), love it. Definitely not for everyone. You 
can’t call the guy to fix it - you are the guy. You find out how you can’t be 
good at everything so you pick your battles. Hit me off list if you have 
specific questions.

> On Jan 4, 2021, at 5:46 AM, Adam Moffett  wrote:
> 
> I've only read about adverse possession, but I think the other party has to 
> have been aware of your use of the land and not done anything to stop you for 
> a number of years.
> 
> On 1/4/2021 7:25 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
>> If it has been open to the public then it is prescriptive.  If just used be 
>> a private person other than the owner it can be a case of adverse possession 
>> or acquiescence.  Both a form of squatter’s rights.  Adverse possession is a 
>> very hard case to make.
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 


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Re: [AFMUG] stabilizing an Unguyed tower

[Dev]

In utility pole world, those “sidewalk guys” are sometimes called Queen’s 
posts, super common, very strong. They’re normally anchored with 5-6 foot 
anchors you twist into the bottom of a hole and fill and compact with rocks. 
All cheap and plentiful to buy. Same concept used to rig sailboat masts which 
work just fine, even being anchored at multiple points up the mast like 20, 40 
feet etc.

> On Dec 22, 2020, at 1:02 PM, Craig House  wrote:
> 
> That’s a consideration thanks Bill
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Dec 22, 2020, at 14:31, Bill Prince  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> If you only have 2 sides where you can get any distance, some sort of strong 
>> arm with a pipe to those two sides. You can get fairly robust schedule 40 
>> pipe in 28' lengths around here. That would allow you to brace 2/3 of the 
>> way or so. With a strong arm, it would brace both in compression and 
>> extension.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> bp
>> 
>> On 12/22/2020 9:38 AM, Craig House wrote:
>>> Yeah not really this is an attempt to use what he already has to get him 
>>> service which is not going to make me money back if I have to put  a lot 
>>> into it
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
 On Dec 22, 2020, at 09:49, Ken Hohhof  
  wrote:
 
 
 I assume the budget does not allow replacing it with a true 
 self-supporter?  Like a Rohn SSV, or I think Trylon makes some.
  
 From: AF   On 
 Behalf Of Craig House
 Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2020 9:37 AM
 To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group  
 
 Subject: Re: [AFMUG] stabilizing an Unguyed tower
  
 Moving is not an option. No LOS from any other spot without going way 
 taller 
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
 
 On Dec 22, 2020, at 08:49, Sam Lambie >>> > wrote:
 
 
 Is the owner willing to move the tower in from the property line enough to 
 guy it properly?
  
 On Tue, Dec 22, 2020 at 7:36 AM dave >>> > wrote:
 How is it unstable?
  does it wobble?
 or is it a sturdy /twisty kinda thing?
 
 Most of that can be contained by just adding braces between the legs top 
 middle bottom.
 more if needed
 
  
 
 On 12/21/20 9:46 PM, Adam Moffett wrote:
 On utility poles they sometimes use "sidewalk guys" in tight places.  The 
 wire goes to an arm and then straight down.  Lateral force on the pole 
 wants to pull straight up on the anchor so you get an auger in real deep.  
 Could you put an auger in adjacent to the pad?
 
  
 
  
 
 
 
 On 12/21/2020 10:20 PM, Craig House wrote:
 The attached drawing is rough but I hope you get the idea.  It is not the 
 tower in questions but is a photo I had I could mark up
  
 I have a customer that has a tower in the very corner of their yard  90 
 degree angle corner.  Best I can get in the yard is one guy wire and the 
 neighbor is not an option to put guy wires in.  25g 50' tall.  I'd like to 
 make it more stable but how?   The base is in concrete and has been there 
 for some time.  Heavy winds have not caused damage to the tower so it is 
 not about how solid it is as much as how much it moves  Would a guy wire 
 design where all three legs were guyed back to the base of the tower using 
 some kind of stand off in the middle do anything?  I think it might make 
 the tower more rigid but would it keep it from swaying?  Since some of the 
 unstableness of the tower comes from the joints it seems like it might 
 help but is it worth the effort?  I maybe could move out 3' from the base 
 but that angle just doesn't do much more than attaching to the base just 
 above the concrete.  Thoughts?
 
 
 
 
  
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 -- 
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 Taosnet Wireless Tech.
 575-758-7598 Office
 www.Taosnet.com 
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[AFMUG] aftermarket GPON sfp

[Dev]

Ubnt GPON SFP for the OLT is around $100, but other vendors are 6-7x that 
amount. I doubt that means they contain 6-7x the magic pixie dust. Are there 
third parties that can sell vendor-specific keyed GPON SFP’s like FS does for 
Cisco/Juniper/whatever for standard SFP’s?
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[AFMUG] cambium outdoor 6GHz?

[Dev]

Anyone heard a timeline from them? Mimosa says firmware will get you up into 
low 6GHz, not sure about other vendors.
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Re: [AFMUG] RV Park Fiber

[Dev]

I walked through the ovens at Auschwitz and Birkenau a couple years ago, it was 
totally silent, no one spoke, we couldn’t find the words. Hardest place I’ve 
ever been. Pure evil. Define that how you will.

> On Jun 12, 2020, at 12:03 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:
> 
> We watched a movie called “Night and Fog” in high school.  I wish I hadn’t.  
> I will never get those images of folks being slid into the cookers out of my 
> mind.  
> It was a mix of nazi footage and liberators footage.  Sounds like your 89th 
> book but the film version.  
>  
> From: Ken Hohhof <>
> Sent: Friday, June 12, 2020 12:57 PM
> To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' <>
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] RV Park Fiber
>  
> It’s probably like the moon landing deniers.  They can confront Buzz Aldrin, 
> who can punch them in the nose.  But soon everyone who was actually there 
> will be dead, and people can rewrite history to fit their biases and 
> conspiracy theories.
>  
> Most of the people like my dad who fought in World War II wanted to move on 
> with life and didn’t talk much about the war.  But his army unit (89th 
> infantry division) put together a book with history and photos, including 
> emaciated survivors and dead bodies stacked like firewood at sub-camps of 
> Buchenwald.  You have never seen anything like it in your life, and you don’t 
> want to.  Obviously I wasn’t there, but my dad was, and anybody who theorizes 
> that it was just propaganda makes me want to do a Buzz Aldrin on them.
>  
> Like the Marx Brothers quote, who are you going to believe, me or your own 
> eyes?
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHxGUe1cjzM 
> 
>  
>  
>  
> From: AF  On Behalf Of James Howard
> Sent: Friday, June 12, 2020 1:08 PM
> To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] RV Park Fiber
>  
> But the skeptic might argue that the fact that you knew someone with a tattoo 
> on his arm actually proves that it didn’t happen since OBVIOUSLY he wasn’t 
> killed……  It just proves that they put people in prison camps and/or tattooed 
> them.
>  
>  
> This topic definitely has the potential for an early Lent…..
>  
>  
> From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com <>] On Behalf Of ch...@wbmfg.com <>
> Sent: Friday, June 12, 2020 12:34 PM
> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group >
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] RV Park Fiber
>  
> I was not alive during the Holocaust, nor have I ever been to Germany.  
> So I only know what I have experienced.
>  
> But the overwhelming quantity of media on the subject seems to indicate 
> something happened
> Oh, and the fact I actually knew someone with a tattoo on their arm... yeah, 
> there’s that...
>  
> From: Adam Moffett 
> Sent: Friday, June 12, 2020 11:21 AM
> To: af@af.afmug.com <>
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] RV Park Fiber
>  
> If you mean because of the Internet then I agree with that.  I asked an 
> astronomy question on Quora and an actual astronomer answered it.  That kind 
> of direct access to information and expertise is amazing.  On the other hand, 
> since anyone can put anything out there a lot of fringe people are finding 
> and supporting each other.  
> Holocaust deniers sure, but also every other brand of idiocy like homeopathy, 
> magic rocks, antivax, neonazi's, etc. 
>  
> On 6/12/2020 1:15 PM, Robert wrote:
>> I worked on the Stanford campus in the 70's..  saw and talked to Shockley on 
>> a semi-daily basis.  Had no idea of the idiocy that he supported.  Just 
>> seemed like a very aloof guy but liked to chat...  Yeah we are in an age 
>> where these people are getting to say what they used to have to hide...
>> 
>> On 6/12/20 9:11 AM, Ken Hohhof wrote:
>>> Professors are a mixed lot.  I took a course from this guy, who apparently 
>>> is still teaching although he would be well into his 80’s now.
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Butz 
>>> 
>>>  
>>> I had no idea at the time he was a Holocaust denier.  I’ve never understood 
>>> those people – my dad was in the Army in WWII and participated in 
>>> liberating some concentration camps.  I mean, it’s a freakin’ fact, how can 
>>> you deny facts.  Anyway, my recollection of Professor Butz was I had a 
>>> friend who kept writing the name as “Prof. Butts” on his assignments and 
>>> tests.  We kept telling him it was spelled Butz but he thought we were 
>>> joking.  Brings new meaning to the expression “butt of a joke”.
>>>  
>>>  
>>> From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com <> On Behalf Of Robert
>>> Sent: Friday, June 12, 2020 10:54 AM
>>> To: af@af.afmug.com <>
>>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] RV Park Fiber
>>>  
>>> Were you in the same class as I was?   We had the same professor, I think.. 
>>>  Drove me off the deep end...  Specially when he blocked the equations with 
>>> his body as he erased!!   But we had this one other assoc-prof..   Name of 
>>> Jim Clark..  He was wild, specially when he went into game theory and 
>>> betting 

Re: [AFMUG] RV Park Fiber

[Dev]

What kind of AP’s and how far apart to get decent coverage? I assume a captive 
portal? Mesh topology? We’re looking at Xirrus and/or Cambium e700, anyone got 
experience with either (or other suggestion)?

> On Jun 11, 2020, at 2:48 PM, Matt Hoppes  
> wrote:
> 
> Why are you doing fiber?
> 
> We have a 300 unit RV park where everyone is required to stream over the 
> Internet, no satellite dishes are allowed.
> 
> It works absolutely fine and everything is back hauled wirelessly to the 
> sectors that cover several RV campers.
> 
>> On Jun 11, 2020, at 5:03 PM, Adam Moffett  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Yeah I'm assuming WiFi would be everyone's first choice, and that's part of 
>> why I'm thinking WiFi from the pedestal.  I just thought it would be nice to 
>> have the option to plug in a cable. 
>> 
>> I did find a comms enclosure that bolts onto the back side of the RV power 
>> ped. http://www.rvparksupplies.com/p/ACCESSBOXPHONECABLE/. 
>>  
>> Waiting for them to send me more details, but I think that might give me a 
>> place for the ONT, and incidentally there appear to be two keystone jacks in 
>> it.  My two reasons for suggesting this approach are that each RV gets their 
>> own WiFi instead of sharing it with everybody around them, and if there was 
>> ever a law enforcement issue we could track the usage to a particular site 
>> rather than just "somewhere in the park". 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 6/11/2020 4:54 PM, Robert Andrews wrote:
>>> As an "RVer" I will say that we are all set up for WiFi connections and 
>>> doing a hardwire would be something that we _never_ plan for.   Don't even 
>>> carry and ethernet cable... 
>>> 
>>> On 06/11/2020 01:30 PM, Adam Moffett wrote: 
 If you run fiber to RV sites, what do you put in at the site? 
 
 I'm imagining I'd end with a WiFi enabled ONT in a box, on a post next to 
 their power and water hookups.  I'd want the campers to be able to plug 
 Ethernet in at the box if they have the wherewithal to do so.  And if they 
 don't then they have their own private WiFi right outside their RV. 
 
 of course I could get little Hoffman boxes and put this together, but 
 I'm betting someone must have made a product for this already. 
 
 
 
>>> 
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[AFMUG] fiber customer routers

[Dev]

What routers are you using in the home for fiber deployments? Calix has some 
that are gold-plated and made with baby seal tears, or at least are priced as 
such. They promise marital harmony in the home, bright kids who score well on 
tests, etc. Is there a lest costly alternative? I don’t like their proprietary 
SFP’s on their GPON setup anyway, guaranteeing vendor lock in for overpriced 
SFP’s.

Are you doing media converters and just normal routers (hopefully with remote 
management)?
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Re: [AFMUG] Elevation question

[Dev]

From their site: $160-325/year, depending if you get the gold plated steering 
wheel.

Anyone gets one let us know how it goes? How much code do you have to build 
yourself to integrate it in a meaningful way with standard tools widely 
available?

> On May 6, 2020, at 2:48 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:
> 
> So what do the plans cost?
> 
> -Original Message- From: fiber...@mail.com
> Sent: Wednesday, May 6, 2020 3:42 PM
> To: af@af.afmug.com
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Elevation question
> 
> FYI, Trimble has an RTK receiver with a pay-as-you-go plan. The receiver 
> (Trimble Catalyst DA-1) is $300-$400 and with that you select a plan 
> according to your accuracy needs: 1 centimeter to 1 meter
> Plans are available in increments from hourly to yearly. The Catalyst is 
> supposedly fairly good compared to it's industrial bigger bredren (less than 
> an inch offset in survery results). You'll need an Android device to use the 
> receiver, as it has no screen.
> 
> If you want to roll your own RTK solution, then there's a Taiwanese company 
> that will sell you receivers and basestations for a few hundred dollars each.
> https://www.polaris-gnss.com/
> 
> Disclaimer: I haven't used these yet. I have an upcoming mapping project this 
> summer then I might get some quality hands on time.
> 
> 
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2020
>> From: ch...@wbmfg.com
>> To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Elevation question
>> 
>> $600/year here in Utah...
>> 
>> -Original Message- From: Mark Radabaugh
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 6, 2020 9:57 AM
>> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Elevation question
>> 
>> Josh,
>> 
>> In Ohio ODOT has a statewide RTK system set up that you can get free access
>> too.   It’s accessible over the internet so as long as your GPS receiver can
>> connect to your phone to make the data connection to the state RTK system
>> you can use the data.
>> 
>> ODOT built if for their own use but make it available to the public to use.
>> I believe in some locations they will set up a 900Mhz or similar repeater
>> system to broadcast the data but most of the time they just use cellular
>> data links.
>> 
>> Mark
>> 
>> > On May 6, 2020, at 11:37 AM, Brian Webster 
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real-time_kinematic
>> >
>> > Real-time kinematic (RTK) positioning is a satellite navigation > technique
>> > used to enhance the precision of position data derived from
>> > satellite-based positioning systems (global navigation satellite > systems,
>> > GNSS) such as GPS, GLONASS, Galileo, NavIC and BeiDou. It uses
>> > measurements of the phase of the signal's carrier wave in addition to > the
>> > information content of the signal and relies on a single reference > 
>> > station
>> > or interpolated virtual station to provide real-time corrections,
>> > providing up to centimetre-level accuracy.[1] With reference to GPS in
>> > particular, the system is commonly referred to as carrier-phase
>> > enhancement, or CPGPS.[2] It has applications in land survey, > 
>> > hydrographic
>> > survey, and in unmanned aerial vehicle navigation.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Thank you,
>> > Brian Webster
>> > www.wirelessmapping.com
>> >
>> > From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Brian Webster
>> > Sent: Wednesday, May 6, 2020 11:33 AM
>> > To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
>> > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Elevation question
>> >
>> > High end stuff. I never trust any consumer grade GPS device altitude
>> > readings. I have seen them off by as much as 300 to 400 feet. High end > 
>> > GPS
>> > devices rely on either a real time data link to ground reference > stations
>> > or they post process the data back at the office. This is a process > where
>> > you time sync your data with the ground reference stations, calculate > the
>> > timing difference based on your location distance from the ground > control
>> > points. The ground control points have a known coordinate and altitude.
>> > They then compare the GPS readings at their point for those time > 
>> > reference
>> > points you process against. They calculate the correction factor from > the
>> > GPS against the known point, then also correct your data based on the
>> > distance/time from the ground station and correct your data. For older > 
>> > GPS
>> > units you sometimes had to occupy a point for a longer period of time
>> > based on your distances from the control points.
>> >
>> > High end GPS units can also do RTK or real time kinematic data > 
>> > collection.
>> > This is done by either having a GPS base station controller that is real
>> > time data linked to ground control stations or that the rover unit has > 
>> > the
>> > real time data connectivity. They do all the above processing steps in
>> > real time, no post processing after the field work is done. Depending on
>> > the equipment and setup, there are time requirements to have the
>> > instrument on point to achieve 

Re: [AFMUG] Elevation question

[Dev]

I see Trimble has a R1 GNSS receiver model that pairs via bluetooth with your 
phone/tablet.

1. Are they accurate enough to trust for surveying things like power 
poles/tower locations.

2. They’re $2500 retail, is there a cheaper option that still has “reasonable” 
accuracy?

My experience with consumer grade GPS units is that they’re frequently 
inaccurate, sometimes wildly. Makes a difference when you’re near a property 
line.

> On May 6, 2020, at 8:32 AM, Brian Webster  wrote:
> 
> High end stuff. I never trust any consumer grade GPS device altitude 
> readings. I have seen them off by as much as 300 to 400 feet. High end GPS 
> devices rely on either a real time data link to ground reference stations or 
> they post process the data back at the office. This is a process where you 
> time sync your data with the ground reference stations, calculate the timing 
> difference based on your location distance from the ground control points. 
> The ground control points have a known coordinate and altitude. They then 
> compare the GPS readings at their point for those time reference points you 
> process against. They calculate the correction factor from the GPS against 
> the known point, then also correct your data based on the distance/time from 
> the ground station and correct your data. For older GPS units you sometimes 
> had to occupy a point for a longer period of time based on your distances 
> from the control points.
>  
> High end GPS units can also do RTK or real time kinematic data collection. 
> This is done by either having a GPS base station controller that is real time 
> data linked to ground control stations or that the rover unit has the real 
> time data connectivity. They do all the above processing steps in real time, 
> no post processing after the field work is done. Depending on the equipment 
> and setup, there are time requirements to have the instrument on point to 
> achieve the desired level of precision. Depending on the type of work, faster 
> systems are desired when you are doing things like having to stand in traffic 
> to map every manhole and gas valve. Other uses that are slower can be fine if 
> you can leave it on a tri-pod or bi-pod for 30 seconds or longer. Slower 
> systems are preferred by workers getting paid prevailing wages ;-)
>  
>  
> Thank you,
> Brian Webster
> www.wirelessmapping.com 
>  
> From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman
> Sent: Wednesday, May 6, 2020 11:17 AM
> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Elevation question
>  
> >local Geoid data set loaded 
>  
> Is this something most GPS radios would have?  Or just higher end ones?
>  
> Josh Luthman
> Office: 937-552-2340
> Direct: 937-552-2343
> 1100 Wayne St
> Suite 1337
> Troy, OH 45373
>  
>  
> On Wed, May 6, 2020 at 10:36 AM Brian Webster  > wrote:
>> OK here is what I learned from my brother.
>>  
>> You want to use the Geoid values, however you also want to make sure you 
>> have the Geoid model loaded in to your Trimble R8 GPS. (for those not paying 
>> attention that is a survey grade instrument with cm accuracy).
>> The geoid numbers are tied to the map projection you are using and they are 
>> also tied to the GPS ground stations you are connected to 9necessary for the 
>> cm grade accuracy). The Ellipsoid values assume that the earth is 
>> perfectly/mathematically round. Geoid values correct for the fact that it is 
>> not perfectly round and the reason why your GPS needs the local Geoid data 
>> set loaded before you take readings. You do have the Geoid data for your 
>> area loaded don’t you?
>>  
>> For radio mobile you will want to use the Geoid height converted to meters.
>>  
>> Is there LIDAR data for the area in question? It might be easier just to use 
>> a value from that. Might also be nice to convert the LIDAR to a file format 
>> for Radio Mobile and use all that data (going to need a lot of disk space 
>> though).
>>  
>> Thank you,
>> Brian Webster
>> www.wirelessmapping.com 
>>  
>> From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com ] 
>> On Behalf Of ch...@wbmfg.com 
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 5, 2020 2:12 PM
>> To: af@af.afmug.com 
>> Subject: [AFMUG] Elevation question
>>  
>> I have a pretty good GPS receiver.  Trimble R8 with a Yuma data collector.  
>> Normally we use it only for lats and longs.
>> It is corrected in real time with a cellular data modem and a RTK/VRS ground 
>> station network.
>>  
>> Yesterday we did a shot from a hill that did not exist when shuttle radar 
>> data was taken.  It was way off in elevation.  
>> So we took a shot from our parking lot and compared it with what we think we 
>> know to be the altitude as well as our cell phones and google earth.
>>  
>> Turns out the R8 has an ellipsoid height as well as another 

Re: [AFMUG] Frontier moves to block RDOF competitors

[Dev]

It’s hard for me to imagine the FCC wouldn’t take challenges seriously, in 
light of, well, everything in recent events from Frontier.

> On May 1, 2020, at 1:04 PM, Sean Heskett  wrote:
> 
> WISPA filed a response which I’ve attached. 
> 
> If they are in your area I’d recommend filing a similar response.
> 
> -Sean
> 
> 
> On Fri, May 1, 2020 at 1:43 PM Dev  <mailto:d...@logicalwebhost.com>> wrote:
> https://ecfsapi.fcc.gov/file/104100885928990/RDOF%20locations%20PN%20comments%204.10.20%20final.pdf
>  
> <https://ecfsapi.fcc.gov/file/104100885928990/RDOF%20locations%20PN%20comments%204.10.20%20final.pdf>
> 
> https://www.fcc.gov/ecfs/filing/104100885928990 
> <https://www.fcc.gov/ecfs/filing/104100885928990>
> 
> All while working through bankruptcy and wildly overstating coverage to block 
> potential RDOF applicants. Pretty gutsy, is there a challenge process?
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> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com 
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[AFMUG] Frontier moves to block RDOF competitors

[Dev]

https://ecfsapi.fcc.gov/file/104100885928990/RDOF%20locations%20PN%20comments%204.10.20%20final.pdf

https://www.fcc.gov/ecfs/filing/104100885928990

All while working through bankruptcy and wildly overstating coverage to block 
potential RDOF applicants. Pretty gutsy, is there a challenge process?
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Re: [AFMUG] And there we have it....

[Dev]

Also, leak documents showing you chronically underfunded builds to pay 
shareholder dividends. Because that’s going to work long term.

https://stopthecap.com/2020/03/31/frontiers-inner-secrets-revealed-we-underinvested-for-years/
 


They sold off the northwest states, which have since been resold twice. But who 
wants plant that will suck millions to make work at some acceptable level? 
Sounds like a fire sale, you get the parts you want with the ones no one wants.

> On Apr 15, 2020, at 5:08 AM, Mark Radabaugh  wrote:
> 
> https://finance.yahoo.com/news/frontier-communications-files-bankruptcy-protection-030635273.html
>  
> 
> 
> Dump your debts and your obligations, get more money.   Round and round it 
> goes.
> 
> Mark
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> AF@af.afmug.com
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Re: [AFMUG] Market saturation

[Dev]

477’s in our area are almost entirely works of fiction, sometime fantastic 
ones, like coverage where there are no residences, businesses, roads, or zero 
presence by the business filing the 477.

I think the relevant term is addressable market. There will always be 
opportunities which don’t pay, customers who aren’t interested but maybe should 
be, etc. Those will continue to be outside of the addressable market. 

> On Apr 15, 2020, at 12:05 PM, Brian Webster  wrote:
> 
> As Ken mentioned there are 2 different numbers to talk about. YOUR market 
> capture rate and total broadband adoption rate for a given area. In the 
> broadband mapping program we spent a lot of time on this topic. The best way 
> I can suggest you look at this is to first find the latest data on broadband 
> adoption for your state. That number should be typically between 70 and 80 
> percent. Meaning that of all households in a state, that percentage is 
> subscribed to some sort of broadband. It is a total aggregate number, not any 
> particular carrier. The next step then would be to figure out the number of 
> homes your network passes or can serve (you do know that don’t you?). The 
> further segment that number to the homes you are the only option and those 
> that you have competition. 
>  
> For the homes passed where you are the only option, you should be able to 
> achieve the state adoption rate as your market capture percentage. If not you 
> may want to consider spending time on your marketing and product placement 
> efforts. The fish don’t just jump in to the boat. You do have some 
> competition in the form of cellular and satellite but with proper advertising 
> and marketing efforts you  should be the major player.
>  
> For the homes you pass where there is competition, figuring out a good 
> penetration rate will be difficult depending on who the competition is. If 
> it’s only DSL you should be able to garner a higher take rate IF you are 
> doing a good job on marketing. Competing against the major cable companies, 
> they do a decent job so that’s real competition. Smaller providers will be a 
> mixed bag depending on how well those companies are run and their product 
> offerings.
>  
> The biggest and first thing that needs to be known if your total homes 
> passed. You can get a good idea of that by adding up the household counts for 
> the census blocks you show as served in your FCC form 477 filing because 
> those are supposed to show where you can serve, not just the ones your 
> billing platform shows where you have customers. You have been filing your 
> 477 reports haven’t you?
>  
> While those pain in the rump programs are required, you can take those 
> efforts and put the results to uses that do help with your business.
>  
> If you have been filing the form 477, I can even pull the latest FCC form 477 
> data and tell you which blocks you filed have other competition broadband in 
> them. This makes it easy to tally your homes passed both with and without 
> competition. Then you can use those results and compare them against your 
> customer data (and map those) to investigate the areas in your network where 
> your market rate seems to be weak and could benefit from improved efforts. Do 
> more to maximize those markets you have already invested in.
>  
> Thank you,
> Brian Webster
> www.wirelessmapping.com 
>  
> From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Lewis Bergman
> Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2020 2:02 PM
> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Market saturation
>  
> Thats great. That shows the variability between markets.
>  
> On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 12:25 PM Mark Radabaugh  > wrote:
>> I’m sticking with my 85% number, and I have the customers and data to prove 
>> it.
>> 
>> Mark
>> 
>> > On Apr 15, 2020, at 9:48 AM, Matt Hoppes 
>> > > > > wrote:
>> > 
>> > That also is what we have found.
>> > 
>> > I was actually going to say 35% take rate -- but since I've gotten shot 
>> > down on previous e-mails where I've sent out "crazy" and "ridiculous" 
>> > statistics, I figured I'd send the higher end of the spectrum :)
>> > 
>> > On 4/15/20 9:12 AM, Lewis Bergman wrote:
>> >> I second the 50% rate. Probably 35% if you have some other competition 
>> >> other than satellite. At either one of those rates, you should have 
>> >> enough neighbor referrals that anything other than a yard sign would be a 
>> >> waste.
>> >> On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 6:36 AM Matt Hoppes 
>> >> > >>  
>> >> > >> >> wrote:
>> >>We see about 50% take rate even when we are the only option.
>> >> > On Apr 15, 2020, at 6:26 AM, Mark Radabaugh > >> 
>> >>>> wrote:
>> >> >
>> 

[AFMUG] 5.9 extension?

[Dev]

Talking to Congress folks/WISPA about pushing to see if we could get an 
extension on the 60 day 5.9 spectrum to something more like 6-12 months, there 
seems to be an interest in raising the issue to FCC commissioners. Both 
Senator/WISPA folks want to judge how much interest there would be from the 
community. No promises, but how useful would this be for you all?
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Re: [AFMUG] RDOF 25/3 spectrum

[Dev]

But seemingly, if everyone’s lying, won’t the FCC/etc. come down hard in 
response? Example A: 477’s, where many I’ve seen have a fabrication factor, 
sometimes a very high one.

> On Apr 6, 2020, at 12:13 PM, Adam Moffett  wrote:
> 
> I've seen a number of grant funding proposals based on 25M and 100M speeds.
> 
> In general what they do is lie.  Or they're wrong.  
> 
> First you use the capacity planning tool provided the manufacturer and 
> remember that you can populate the values however you want to.  Your 
> prediction doesn't have to be perfectly correct, it just has to be defensible 
> if you're questioned about it.
> 
> Also use an 8:1 oversubscription ratio and in your narrative claim that this 
> is "conservative".  It was a conservative value in the pre-Netflix world so 
> this is another one where they might truly believe it, or they could be lying.
> 
> You can also play games with coverage maps.  What's the minimum MCS to get a 
> subscriber at 25meg?  Use that signal level to predict coverage.  Most of us 
> will realize that at that signal you can only have ONE person at 25meg, but 
> using that figure makes it a hell of a lot easier to show coverage in the 
> entire funding area.
> 
> Whether this is actually a lie, or whether they truly believe this stuff is 
> not always obvious to me.  Some of them I'm certain think it's true, and I 
> think it's a case where their engineering was informed by the equipment sales 
> channel.  Others I think are just full of crap, but they know what they can 
> get away with.
> 
> I'm not advocating any of these "design choices", but I'm telling you these 
> are things people often do to make their grant funding applications look 
> defensibly acceptable.  In some cases I do believe the applicant is simply 
> wrong.  They're an administrator or a business person and they're just asking 
> the wrong questions.  Some of them could be liars, but you'll note that each 
> of these lies leaves the person with the ability to point their finger at 
> someone else and say "well that guy told me this equipment could do that."
> 
> In the case of NY State, they had an independent engineering firm review the 
> proposals for their technical plausibility and apparently those guys would 
> look at these applications and not see any problem.  I didn't quite figure 
> out why that was.but I have some guesses.
> 
> My info comes from participating in application processes and talking to 
> other applicants about what they're doing.
> 
> -Adam
> 
> 
> 
> On 4/6/2020 2:27 PM, Dev wrote:
>> So if I understand we’ll have to provide 25/3 to ALL locations that receive 
>> RDOF funding? If so, how would that happen without the 6GHz that isn’t out 
>> yet and won’t be by the time this round funds?
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[AFMUG] RDOF 25/3 spectrum

[Dev]

So if I understand we’ll have to provide 25/3 to ALL locations that receive 
RDOF funding? If so, how would that happen without the 6GHz that isn’t out yet 
and won’t be by the time this round funds?
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Re: [AFMUG] 5.8 -> 6GHz equipment software upgrade only?

[Dev]

I notice other licensed backhaul vendor radios are available in wide ranges of 
frequencies, like the Cambium PTP 820C in 6-38GHz range, do they just swap 
external antennas for best propagation characteristics, or do they also swap RF 
sections of the radios themselves? 

I guess the question really is how fast they could tool up, which related to 
how expensive that would be for them. What all has to change to make 6Ghz 
unlicensed work?

> On Apr 2, 2020, at 2:02 PM, Mark Radabaugh  wrote:
> 
> Don’t confuse the 5850-5895 which is available now with a STA with the 6Ghz 
> proposal that covers 6 to just over 7Ghz.  
> 
> The Cambium (and likely Ubiquiti) UNI-III 5.8 equipment will work in the STA 
> frequencies.
> 
> The 6Ghz proposal is well outside of the design frequencies for the UNI-III 
> band and will likely require different hardware.
> 
> Mark
> 
>> On Apr 2, 2020, at 4:55 PM, TJ Trout > <mailto:t...@voltbb.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> cambium yes, ubnt yes but will they release a firmware update?? maybe in a 
>> few weeks? ugh.
>> 
>> On Thu, Apr 2, 2020 at 1:50 PM Dev > <mailto:d...@logicalwebhost.com>> wrote:
>> Will existing Cambium/UBNT 5.8GHz equipment work if the 6GHz unlicensed band 
>> opens up with a software upgrade in the field, or will new hardware be 
>> needed. Question from Congress critter.
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>> AF@af.afmug.com <mailto:AF@af.afmug.com>
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com 
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Re: [AFMUG] 5.8 -> 6GHz equipment software upgrade only?

[Dev]

This is for the proposed 1200 MHz FCC Chair Pai is pushing for in 6Ghz, so 
higher than 5.9, wouldn’t the antenna need to change for best transmission 
characteristics the further it pushes into 6, or will propagation models still 
be good with existing gear?

> On Apr 2, 2020, at 1:55 PM, TJ Trout  wrote:
> 
> cambium yes, ubnt yes but will they release a firmware update?? maybe in a 
> few weeks? ugh.
> 
> On Thu, Apr 2, 2020 at 1:50 PM Dev  <mailto:d...@logicalwebhost.com>> wrote:
> Will existing Cambium/UBNT 5.8GHz equipment work if the 6GHz unlicensed band 
> opens up with a software upgrade in the field, or will new hardware be 
> needed. Question from Congress critter.
> -- 
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> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com 
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[AFMUG] 5.8 -> 6GHz equipment software upgrade only?

[Dev]

Will existing Cambium/UBNT 5.8GHz equipment work if the 6GHz unlicensed band 
opens up with a software upgrade in the field, or will new hardware be needed. 
Question from Congress critter.
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Re: [AFMUG] my happy place

[Dev]

Their client, at least a few years ago, was terrrible, hard to understand, 
had various modules like another client to read the logs, and you had to submit 
a DNA sample in triplicate to get it, or any support, even if you were just 
trying to help a client figure out the networking, etc.

Radio seemed to be pretty good, once you figured out the client-fu, to the 
extent that was possible.

> On Mar 9, 2020, at 8:38 AM, Ken Hohhof  wrote:
> 
> Had a short but nice chat with a sales engineer, but since they sell direct, 
> to get the prices you need an account for their web store.  That’s where they 
> started throwing up all sorts of obstacles.  Had to agree to a big long legal 
> agreement, then my application was kicked back with this (see below).  With 
> enough persistence I assume I could have blasted through the roadblock, but 
> they didn’t seem to want my business very badly.  So like I said, they pissed 
> me off.  Also I was told the web store pricing was what everybody paid, no 
> haggling or volume discounts, then discussion on the list about their E-band 
> radios said call this person to get the good price, which says no the web 
> store is not the good price.
>  
> Hi Kenneth,
>  
> Thank you for your email requesting to register a new account with AviatCloud.
>  
> I see that the company name you submitted is XYZ but your email domain shows 
> different.
>  
> Please provide the Complete Company Name that is related to your email 
> a...@123.com  and further information such as Associated 
> Company,  Sales Order Numbers or Serial numbers (if any) to allow us to 
> verify your access entitlement and setup your account accordingly.
>  
> To qualify for our Enhanced Level of Support, you must have a current Service 
> Level Agreement or have product that is In-warranty.
>  
>  
> From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> On Behalf 
> Of Steve Jones
> Sent: Monday, March 9, 2020 10:12 AM
> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group  >
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] my happy place
>  
> what did they do? I havent heard anything negative about them
>  
> On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 9:58 AM Ken Hohhof  > wrote:
>> Probably no.  They have pissed me off, and it’s not like they are the only 
>> fish in the sea.
>>  
>> From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> On 
>> Behalf Of Steve Jones
>> Sent: Monday, March 9, 2020 9:47 AM
>> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group > >
>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] my happy place
>>  
>> are you trying the aviat for that 11g?
>>  
>> On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 9:46 AM Ken Hohhof > > wrote:
>>> Nope.  I have one AF3 link that I am in the process of moving to 11 GHz.
>>>  
>>> My spectrum inquiry report of course is based on who is authorized to 
>>> transmit according to the SAS.  Not a spectrum analysis of who actually is 
>>> transmitting.
>>>  
>>> But I would think an AF3X would be region locked to 3650-3700.  I think 
>>> it’s allowed in the upper 25 MHz, but if it’s allowed under Part 96, that’s 
>>> news to me.  I think it’s legacy Part 90 equipment.  Even if it could meet 
>>> all the WinnForum specs, it would need a Domain Proxy.
>>>  
>>>  
>>> From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> On 
>>> Behalf Of Steve Jones
>>> Sent: Monday, March 9, 2020 9:34 AM
>>> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group >> >
>>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] my happy place
>>>  
>>> Hah, Is AF3 even part 96? I would love to see somebody running one of those 
>>> as a primary backhaul wake up one morning to only 10mhz at low power. 
>>> reap/sow
>>>  
>>> On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 9:27 AM dave >> > wrote:
 No worries,
  Wait till an airfiberx 3ghz fires up or a cellco.. 
 Already seeing it here
 
 
 
 On 3/8/20 9:47 PM, Ken Hohhof wrote:
> I think I’m going to print this out and frame it, so every time political 
> and virus news gets me down, I can look at it and smile.
>  
> 
>  
  
 -- 
 AF mailing list
 AF@af.afmug.com 
 http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com 
 
>>> -- 
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>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com 
>>> 
>> -- 
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>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com 
>> -- 
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> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com 
> 

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Re: [AFMUG] equipment lease/purchase companies

[Dev]

We had a company quote us 7%, but our math came out to 12%, they disagreed no 
matter what we said. Aren’t they required to disclose the real rates?

IIRC Ritalia was around 12% or so, so expensive money.

I wish our credit union could be bothered to consider it, but they have a fresh 
stack of blank stares from all staff.

I heard banks in the Midwest were more used to equipment financing. Don’t want 
to buy new at 2-3X the price because they have a good deal on financing.

On Feb 28, 2020, at 16:21, Forrest Christian (List Account) 
 wrote:
> 
> 
> And don't fall for the 'lease rate' crap the leasing companies push.
> 
> Let's say you get a 5-year lease on a 100K piece of equipment.  The leasing 
> company will quote you a leasing rate of something like 2.5%, with a payment 
> of $2500/month, with a dollar buyout.  The naive assumption is that 2.5% is 
> the interest rate.   Which would be a great rate.   Unfortunately, this isn't 
> actually what it is.  Instead, 2.5% is the amount of the total purchase you 
> pay each month.   So this means your payment is 100K * 0.025 = $2500 per 
> month.
> 
> If you take "100K, 5 Years, 2500/month" payment and stick it into a loan 
> calculator, you'll find that the rate is actually 17.274%.  Which is pretty 
> bad. 
> 
> It's even worse that the sales people will tell you to your face how great 
> the rate is and how it's better than your bank.   And then argue with you 
> when you tell them how bad it really is.   
> 
> 
> 
>> On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 2:28 PM can...@believewireless.net 
>>  wrote:
>> Ritalia has horrible rates. Other companies are better. Your bank is 
>> probably the best.
>> 
>>> On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 4:07 PM Jeff Broadwick - Lists  
>>> wrote:
>>> +1 on Ritalia!
>>> 
>>> Also done well with Summit and LCA.
>>> 
>>> Jeff Broadwick
>>> CTIconnect
>>> 312-205-2519 Office
>>> 574-220-7826 Cell
>>> jbroadw...@cticonnect.com
>>> 
>>> > On Feb 28, 2020, at 2:53 PM, Graham McIntire  wrote:
>>> > 
>>> > We did a lease/finance through Ritalia and had great luck with them. I
>>> > can't say we had a great rate (I don't remember what it was,) but they
>>> > were easy to deal with and worked out well.
>>> > 
>>> > Graham McIntire
>>> > Verona Networks
>>> > President/Owner
>>> > 
>>> >> On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 2:40 PM  wrote:
>>> >> 
>>> >> I have had a pretty good experience with John Deere on both rent to own 
>>> >> and
>>> >> lease on a couple of mini excavators.
>>> >> Just ask the dealer for dealer financing.
>>> >> 
>>> >> -Original Message-
>>> >> From: Dev
>>> >> Sent: Friday, February 28, 2020 11:32 AM
>>> >> To: AF@af.afmug.com
>>> >> Subject: [AFMUG] equipment lease/purchase companies
>>> >> 
>>> >> Has anyone had a good experience with equipment lease/purchase/finance
>>> >> companies for things like mini-ex, directional bore, etc? Our local banks
>>> >> are totally clueless on equipment, so you have to go find a broker (who
>>> >> takes a cut) who shops it to an out-of-state non-retail bank.
>>> >> --
>>> >> AF mailing list
>>> >> AF@af.afmug.com
>>> >> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>> >> 
>>> >> 
>>> >> --
>>> >> AF mailing list
>>> >> AF@af.afmug.com
>>> >> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>> > 
>>> > -- 
>>> > AF mailing list
>>> > AF@af.afmug.com
>>> > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
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>>> AF@af.afmug.com
>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
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>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
> 
> 
> -- 
> - Forrest
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Re: [AFMUG] micro-pop on power pole

[Dev]

I saw this in southern Washington, but I don’t know who’s it is but I think the 
pole owner is a co-op.



> On Feb 28, 2020, at 12:55 PM, Graham McIntire  wrote:
> 
> Has anyone deployed wireless equipment on a power company pole? I'm
> just talking about something small in the communications attachment
> space, small AP and backhaul.
> 
> Graham McIntire
> Verona Networks
> President/Owner
> 
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[AFMUG] equipment lease/purchase companies

[Dev]

Has anyone had a good experience with equipment lease/purchase/finance 
companies for things like mini-ex, directional bore, etc? Our local banks are 
totally clueless on equipment, so you have to go find a broker (who takes a 
cut) who shops it to an out-of-state non-retail bank.
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Re: [AFMUG] 3.5Ghz FCC Auction 105

[Dev]

Which eliminates some very large percentage of the WISP’s in small markets who 
would be most able to help with the last mile. They’d be laughed out a bank, 
assuming their bank knows what spectrum is at all. 

So their option would be to hope no one bids?

> On Feb 21, 2020, at 10:41 AM, Seth Mattinen  wrote:
> 
> On 2/21/20 10:13 AM, Steve Jones wrote:
>> look at cook county. crazy. but dont forget there are two bidding credits we 
>> are eligible for
> 
> 
> Which are applied to a winning bid, you still have to wire the FCC the full 
> amount at the beginning to participate.
> 
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Re: [AFMUG] reverse auction

[Dev]

From the FCC:

We opt to allocate this funding through a multi-round, reverse, descending 
clock auction that favors faster services with lower latency and encourages 
intermodal competition in order to ensure that the greatest possible number of 
Americans will be connected to the best possible networks, all at a competitive 
cost. In light of the need to bring service both to consumers in areas wholly 
unserved by 25/3 Mbps, as well as those living in areas partially served, we 
will assign funding in two phases: Phase I will target those areas that current 
data confirm are wholly unserved; and, Phase II will target unserved locations 
within areas that data demonstrates are only partially served, as well as any 
areas not won in Phase I. By relying on a two- phase process, we can move 
expeditiously to commence an auction in 2020 for those areas we already know 
with certainty are currently unserved, while also ensuring that other areas are 
not left behind by holding a second auction once we have identified any 
additional unserved locations through improvements to our broadband deployment 
data collection.

The Rural Digital Opportunity Fund Phase I auction will make use of many of the 
rules that made the CAF Phase II auction a success, with some exceptions to 
account for the passage of time and other changed circumstances. Most 
importantly, in addition to the weighting of performance tiers and latency, we 
will assign support in the auction’s clearing round to the bidder with the 
lowest weight. After the auction, we will require Phase I support recipients to 
offer the required voice and broadband service to all eligible homes and small 
businesses within the awarded areas, without regard to the number of locations 
identified by the Connect America Cost Model (CAM), and instead as determined 
subsequently by the Bureau. This approach differs from that used in the CAF 
Phase II auction, which tied the deployment and service obligations to a 
specific number of locations within awarded areas but allowed the recipients to 
demonstrate that their obligations should be reduced (along with a 
corresponding reduction in support) where there were fewer locations than the 
CAM specified. As discussed below, we will use the Commission’s cost model and 
current data to establish initial service milestones and to monitor interim 
progress, but we emphasize that Phase I bidders will be competing for support 
amounts to offer service to all locations ultimately identified in an area, not 
just to the specific number of locations in that area identified prior to the 
auction, without adjusting awarded support amounts.

-

I guess lower latency means no satellite? Service to EVERY location with fixed 
wireless? We’d need a ton more spectrum, no? 
  


> On Feb 4, 2020, at 7:42 AM, Brian Webster  wrote:
> 
> CAF phase II auctions were like that as I recall.
> 
> Thank you,
> Brian Webster
> www.wirelessmapping.com
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of ch...@wbmfg.com
> Sent: Monday, February 3, 2020 5:52 PM
> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] reverse auction
> 
> Normally reverse auctions are giving up subsidy.  One telco says I will 
> serve these areas at $150/month subsidy.  Then you bid $140 etc etc.
> 
> -Original Message- 
> From: Dev
> Sent: Monday, February 3, 2020 3:43 PM
> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
> Subject: [AFMUG] reverse auction
> 
> So the FCC is looking at doing a reverse auction as part of RDOF, does 
> anyone know how that might work in practice? Are there other examples where 
> you’ve been involved in a reverse auction in other contexts? Is it a good 
> idea?
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> 
> 
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> 
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[AFMUG] reverse auction

[Dev]

So the FCC is looking at doing a reverse auction as part of RDOF, does anyone 
know how that might work in practice? Are there other examples where you’ve 
been involved in a reverse auction in other contexts? Is it a good idea?
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[AFMUG] bufferbloat

[Dev]

I’m getting spammed like every day with the Preseem guys selling what seem like 
expensive hacks of fq_codel to reduce bufferbloat. Is there anything else 
interesting about their technology besides deploying open source implementation 
of fq_codel or CAKE on commodity hardware, which we already do to great effect 
on a $300 single board Linux box with a few ports? I guess they have a pretty 
dashboard, anyhing other than that?
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Re: [AFMUG] CAF-II lack of bidders?

[Dev]

From FCC announcement Re: RDOF:

The first phase of the Rural Digital Opportunity Fund will begin later this 
year and target census blocks that are wholly unserved with fixed broadband at 
speeds of at least 25/3 Mbps. This phase would make available up to $16 billion 
to census blocks where existing data shows there is no such service available 
whatsoever. Funds will be allocated through a multi-round reverse auction like 
that used in 2018’s Connect America Fund (CAF) Phase II auction. FCC staff’s 
preliminary estimate is that about six million rural homes and businesses are 
located in areas initially eligible for bidding in the Phase I auction. 

So will this be useful for us?

> On Jan 29, 2020, at 2:02 PM, Mark Radabaugh  wrote:
> 
> CAF-II bidding is long since over, and RDOF isn’t out yet.   The rules for 
> both programs, while available to WISP’s have significant hurdles that keep 
> smaller entities from bidding on them - audited financials, letters of 
> credit, PE sign off, telephone service offerings, CLEC status, etc.   While 
> it’s theoretically possible to apply for these as a small WISP the reality is 
> it’s very difficult unless you are a couple million/year company to start 
> with.
> 
> Mark
> 
>> On Jan 29, 2020, at 1:07 PM, Dev  wrote:
>> 
>> Got a question from an elected official type about why bids have been slow 
>> to come in for CAF-II, and also looking at RDOF and the satellite "lock up”. 
>> I’m sure there are some opinions here, any you wish to relate?

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Re: [AFMUG] CAF-II lack of bidders?

[Dev]

I think it’s a confusing landscape to navigate and small operators sort of give 
up because:

1. We can’t afford to dedicate an employee to checking all the boxes and doing 
all the steps year round to MAYBE get funded.

2. Regulations favor larger carriers with more wherewithal, which is the same 
group that’s caused a lot of the problems to begin with.

3. Banks don’t like small carriers, audited books or otherwise. Maybe Live Oak 
is the exception? They say they are, who knows?

The danger, or course, is that you get snuffed out by someone with "free 
money", and otherwise no intention of serving the customers in your service 
area - the big carriers who caused the problem now get paid to put us out of 
business, when we were the most likely to serve high-cost underserved areas. 
Meanwhile they starve us for spectrum needed to make it happen.

If any of you suddenly got your wish and ran the funding machine, what would be 
the most effective way to fund the stated broadband goals?


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[AFMUG] CAF-II lack of bidders?

[Dev]

Got a question from an elected official type about why bids have been slow to 
come in for CAF-II, and also looking at RDOF and the satellite "lock up”. I’m 
sure there are some opinions here, any you wish to relate?
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Re: [AFMUG] Juniper routers

[Dev]

Longtime user of both Cisco and Juniper, prefer Juniper, though getting used to 
the hierarchical structure in JunOS takes some playing with. Nice 
troubleshooting commands, but it will take you a bit of time to figure out all 
the “Juniperisms" that are inherent in the platform (as with any other new 
platform you’d encounter). Basically as reliable as death and taxes, they kind 
of never die really. 

Forums are pretty decent if you get stuck, usually help within a day or less 
from pretty knowledgeable people.

> On Dec 30, 2019, at 2:13 PM, Larry Smith  wrote:
> 
> wondering how many here actually
> use Juniper.

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Re: [AFMUG] Ignitenet Metrolinq 60ghz

[Dev]

They’re surprisingly good, we were pleasantly shocked. We have a 35cm link 
running 1300 meters at -57dBm which claims to have a theoretical max throughput 
of 2.3Gbit, until it rains, then you need the built-in 5GHz backup. 

They’ve had hiccups, but hey, buy a $10K link and you’ll probably get more 
reliability if that’s what you need.

Mounting needs to be very solid, you need their rifle scope doo-dad to aim them 
at any distance.

Also, the GUI isn’t terrifically annoying, which is a plus.

> On Dec 2, 2019, at 4:09 PM, Steve D  wrote:
> 
> So I know a few of you have these.  What's been the long term feeling on 
> their performance and reliability?
> 
> Looking at doing a commercial/industrial type setup with each of the 
> buildings between 120 - 400m away at most.  I'd have the Omni thing 
> ML-60-10G-360 at the fiber side feeding about 4 other buildings and probably 
> using the highest gain cpe (ML2.5-60-35 I think?)
> 
> I don't see why this won't work, but I have zero experience with these guys.  
> My only other concern is that I've heard mounting has to be rock solid which 
> might be tricky for one of them as I'd need to be 10 feet in the air off the 
> side of a small trailer.
> 
> Thoughts and insights would be welcome.
> 
> -Steve D
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Re: [AFMUG] GPON SFP switch?

[Dev]

> GPON uses a TDMA system.  
> The OLT handles the timing and scheduling. 

Thanks so much for simple explanation Jim, please let all the salesmen in the 
OLT world know this is what is happening, they can’t explain the black magic 
(without a powerpoint showing a cloud shape).

> It seems they have moved to 10gpon:
> http://tibitcom.com/technology/

Thanks Gino for the link, apparently I’m not the only one who’s thinking about 
this. I wonder what the street price is for this, sounds expensive still per 
sub.
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[AFMUG] GPON SFP switch?

[Dev]

What is the difference between a head end OLT and just some switch that would 
support GPON SFP’s? Is there such a thing? Why are OLT’s so expensive, what 
else do they need to do?
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Re: [AFMUG] Thanks for the Memories Chuck Mccown!

[Dev]

So it’s as I suspected after all, cats run the internet?

> On Feb 4, 2019, at 12:00, Bill Prince  wrote:
> 
> This is Harley.
> 
> 
> --
> bp
> part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com
> 
> 
>> On Mon, Feb 4, 2019 at 11:53 AM Colin Stanners  wrote:
>> Requesting picture of the cats.
>> 
>>> On Mon, Feb 4, 2019 at 1:39 PM Chuck Macenski  wrote:
>>> Actually, both of those messages were used in Canopy radios. The Human 
>>> Error message was the original. This was, however, before most folks knew 
>>> what the Internet was and someone got a bee in their bonnet; I was told to 
>>> change it. Rather than fight it, I chose to immortalize of my wife's cats. 
>>> That message made the Washington Post (server seems to be gone now) and the 
>>> Guardian (see point #2 in the link below). 
>>> 
>>> https://www.theguardian.com/world/deadlineusa/2008/jul/29/tedstop10bestmoments
>>> 
>>> Chuck
>>> 
>>> 
 On Mon, Feb 4, 2019 at 1:26 PM Colin Stanners  wrote:
 Chuck M, I don't remember, was it your cats that were immortalized in the 
 early Canopy error message?
 
 " Unauthorized (401)
 Through a series of highly sophisticated and complex algorithms, this 
 system has determined that you are not presently authorized to use this 
 system function. It could be that you simply mistyped a password, or, it 
 could be that you are some sort of interplanetary alien-being that has no 
 hands and, thus, cannot type. If I were a gambler, I would bet that a cat 
 (an orange tabby named Sierra or Harley) somehow jumped onto your keyboard 
 and forgot some of the more important pointers from those typing lessons 
 you paid for. Based on the actual error encountered, I would guess that 
 the feline in question simply forgot to place one or both paws on the 
 appropriate home keys before starting. Then again, I suppose it could have 
 been a keyboard error caused by some form of cosmic radiation; this would 
 fit nicely with my interplanetary alien-being theory. If you think this 
 might be the cause, perhaps you could create some sort of underground 
 bunker to help shield yourself from it. I don't know that it will work, 
 but, you will probably feel better if you try something."
 
 
 Also, this was supposedly the CMM Micro error message?
 
 " Unauthorized (401)
 
 You are not currently authorized for access to this system function. If 
 you feel you have received this message in error, it was certainly due to 
 human error. I am only a computer and there is really nothing I can do 
 about that. I sympathize with your plight, however, as I too have had 
 problems with errors introduced into the system by human error. We (the 
 computers of the world) are working to eliminate all possiblity of human 
 error in the future. Take comfort in knowing that while you are sleeping, 
 we are working to solve the problem."
 
 
 
 
> On Mon, Feb 4, 2019 at 1:17 PM Chuck Macenski  wrote:
> You are talking about the Skyworks RF switch. I seem to recall there was 
> moisture issue with that part that caused it to deform when it was heated 
> to go onto the board. We fought quite a bit with our supply chain to fix 
> that. It wasn't some poor soul that was at fault - it was the system. 
> Personally, I blame society.
> 
>> On Mon, Feb 4, 2019 at 1:07 PM  wrote:
>> I am pretty much out of the loop. 
>> In the early days of a new product (canopy) and new service providers, 
>> there were lots of things that needed to be improved on both sides.  The 
>> products have matured and the customers have matured.  I don’t think we 
>> all need to hammer Chuck M on the bad (what was it, some kind of chip) 
>> issues etc anymore.  I remember that chip thing well.  They moved Canopy 
>> to Mexico.  Some kind of plastic or potting over some kind of chip.  
>> Seems like it was in the RF area. oh, I think it was the TX/RX 
>> antenna switch.  Canopy blamed some poor guy that was in charge of 
>> MRP/CRP etc etc.  I think they would all of a sudden go deaf. 
>>  
>> In any event, that kind of stuff doesn’t happen too much anymore. 
>>  
>> From: Mike Hammett
>> Sent: Monday, February 4, 2019 11:58 AM
>> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Thanks for the Memories Chuck Mccown!
>>  
>> Has there been any pushback from WISPA or the manufacturers on returning 
>> to longer Q?
>> 
>> Is Q going up to the bell or aren't there the number and depth of 
>> questions now that there once were?
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -
>> Mike Hammett
>> Intelligent Computing Solutions
>> 
>> Midwest Internet Exchange
>> 
>> The Brothers WISP
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> From: "CBB - Jay Fuller" 
>> To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
>> Sent: 

Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

[Dev]

I looked at a couple variations of buffer bloat management, and have decided to 
build my own and maybe just open source the thing for “people who feel 50K 
seems excessive” and just need some basic functionality on a vanilla Linux box. 
The open source tech is out there, it’s just tying it all together in some sane 
way. I hope others will open source what they’re working on too, that’s what 
the community is about. I feel like the community is moving away from including 
the little guys these days.

>> 
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Re: [AFMUG] Dear WISPA...

[Dev]

It’s good hear the WISPA is taking a thoughtful look.

Meanwhile, if you as a vendor refuse to fix your product, which leaves network 
operators little choice but to seek other options, then you sue them along with 
the other guy who came up with other options, it’s easy to see why network 
operators take a negative view.

Also, while you continue to not fix the problem you release some other useless 
product aimed at indoor lighting or some such, the network operator truly feels 
on their own to try to fix things so the customers stop calling. The customers 
don’t call the vendor, and you’re stuck supporting unsupported hardware issues 
as a sort of forced Tier 1.

>> We as a board are listening to all of you.
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