Re: [AFMUG] Fw: Google Fiber information

[Rory Conaway]

You also have to keep in mind that you are generating cash income as you 
rollout which reduces the amount of capital needed. 

Rory

-Original Message-
From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Rory Conaway
Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2016 8:56 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Fw: Google Fiber information

I'm including all the costs of the entire company, not just the cost of 
deployment of each house.  And each house is about $300 average deployment.  
With all due respect, and adding in all the costs of deploying in a typical big 
city suburb and the time frame involved, 2 years, I'd like to see how you 
calculate that at being able to do 5M homes for $12-$25M dollars.

Rory

-Original Message-
From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown
Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2016 8:24 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: [AFMUG] Fw: Google Fiber information

I don't know why you would think it takes $250M to do 5M subs.  I do 
construction in high density residential all day long at 5-10% of that cost.

-Original Message-
From: Chuck McCown
Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2016 9:00 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Google Fiber information

I am talking about Eagle Mountain Utah.  Lots of starter homes and super stingy 
young Mormon families.  85% happens.  It truly does.

-Original Message-
From: Rory Conaway
Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2016 8:57 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Google Fiber information

I understand that there are areas where you might have an 85% but that was 
before the days of half of all households have someone on public assistance.
And if you notice, Google only cherry picked high income areas.  If I targeted 
only Scottsdale with houses that average $1M and up and my competitor was crap, 
I'd get a high uptake also.  Most of our areas are middle class, lower-middle 
class, and even below that.  Budget matters, people are skeptical, and the 
effort needed to convert them is much higher.

As for the 5M number being realistic, depends on the investment and the market. 
 If you are just targeting residential internet, it's going to be very, very 
expensive, like north of $250M to get there within 5 years unless you just buy 
everyone up.  But there are a lot of people in this country and with average 
incomes at $30K, a lot of opportunity.  I also believe it's possible to go much 
higher than that.  DSL is collapsing and the cable companies are following the 
same stale path they always do without any real innovations.

Rory


-Original Message-
From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Seth Mattinen
Sent: Friday, August 26, 2016 11:15 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Google Fiber information

On 8/26/16 6:05 PM, CBB - Jay Fuller wrote:
>
> i thought it was a rooter?


Only in Canada.

Re: [AFMUG] OT: Butt setts

[Eric Kuhnke]

Lots of used fluke in the market.

On Aug 27, 2016 8:38 PM, "Jay Weekley"  wrote:

> I'm looking for recommendations for butt sets for some upcoming jobs.
> Basically I need to get dial tone and and verify the number I am connected
> to but not sure of other features that may come with the higher end sets
> that may be helpful.
>

Re: [AFMUG] OT: Butt setts

[Forrest Christian (List Account)]

I guess you need to decide how much you're going to use this and in what
environment.

For years I used just a cheap phone and a set of clips.   At some point I
picked up a used butt set for cheap.   Didn't really notice much difference.

Unless you're using it a lot (daily) or know you need the higher end
features (data safe, etc), I would just buy something inexpensive. I know
amazon has ones from probably too cheap to very very expensive, and the
amazing reviews are very helpful.

On Aug 27, 2016 9:38 PM, "Jay Weekley"  wrote:

> I'm looking for recommendations for butt sets for some upcoming jobs.
> Basically I need to get dial tone and and verify the number I am connected
> to but not sure of other features that may come with the higher end sets
> that may be helpful.
>

Re: [AFMUG] OT: Butt setts

[Keefe John]

bytebrothers has one


On 8/27/2016 10:37 PM, Jay Weekley wrote:
I'm looking for recommendations for butt sets for some upcoming jobs.  
Basically I need to get dial tone and and verify the number I am 
connected to but not sure of other features that may come with the 
higher end sets that may be helpful.

Re: [AFMUG] Fw: Google Fiber information

[Rory Conaway]

I'm including all the costs of the entire company, not just the cost of 
deployment of each house.  And each house is about $300 average deployment.  
With all due respect, and adding in all the costs of deploying in a typical big 
city suburb and the time frame involved, 2 years, I'd like to see how you 
calculate that at being able to do 5M homes for $12-$25M dollars.

Rory

-Original Message-
From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown
Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2016 8:24 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: [AFMUG] Fw: Google Fiber information

I don't know why you would think it takes $250M to do 5M subs.  I do 
construction in high density residential all day long at 5-10% of that cost.

-Original Message-
From: Chuck McCown
Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2016 9:00 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Google Fiber information

I am talking about Eagle Mountain Utah.  Lots of starter homes and super stingy 
young Mormon families.  85% happens.  It truly does.

-Original Message-
From: Rory Conaway
Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2016 8:57 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Google Fiber information

I understand that there are areas where you might have an 85% but that was 
before the days of half of all households have someone on public assistance.
And if you notice, Google only cherry picked high income areas.  If I targeted 
only Scottsdale with houses that average $1M and up and my competitor was crap, 
I'd get a high uptake also.  Most of our areas are middle class, lower-middle 
class, and even below that.  Budget matters, people are skeptical, and the 
effort needed to convert them is much higher.

As for the 5M number being realistic, depends on the investment and the market. 
 If you are just targeting residential internet, it's going to be very, very 
expensive, like north of $250M to get there within 5 years unless you just buy 
everyone up.  But there are a lot of people in this country and with average 
incomes at $30K, a lot of opportunity.  I also believe it's possible to go much 
higher than that.  DSL is collapsing and the cable companies are following the 
same stale path they always do without any real innovations.

Rory


-Original Message-
From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Seth Mattinen
Sent: Friday, August 26, 2016 11:15 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Google Fiber information

On 8/26/16 6:05 PM, CBB - Jay Fuller wrote:
>
> i thought it was a rooter?


Only in Canada.

[AFMUG] OT: Butt setts

[Jay Weekley]

I'm looking for recommendations for butt sets for some upcoming jobs.  
Basically I need to get dial tone and and verify the number I am 
connected to but not sure of other features that may come with the 
higher end sets that may be helpful.

Re: [AFMUG] (OSPF + ibgp) / formerly Mikrotik OSPF weirdness

[Mike Hammett]

Best explanation I've seen yet. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Bruce Robertson"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2016 5:19:42 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] (OSPF + ibgp) / formerly Mikrotik OSPF weirdness 

But why even go there? OSPF is a *link state* protocol. BGP is designed for 
passing prefixes around *regardless* of the link state. Use each protocol for 
what it was meant for, and happiness will ensue. Do you really want customer 
reachability information propagating throughout your entire network? All you 
need is OSPF propagating link state, which is relatively a much smaller size of 
possibilities. BGP then stays stable, and doesn't even notice the change. What 
if one router has hundreds of customers with unique (non-pool) customers on it? 
OSPF will propagate *all* of these customers on every link state change. BGP 
won't send a single update. 


On 08/26/2016 03:01 PM, Faisal Imtiaz wrote: 




>> As you grow, you'll find it won't scale well. 



Care to elaborate more on this ? 


By definition it is pointed out that putting hundreds of routers or hundreds of 
routes are a weak point of OSPF, however there are many different techniques 
available to manage that. 


Regards. 


Faisal Imtiaz 
Snappy Internet & Telecom 
7266 SW 48 Street 
Miami, FL 33155 
Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232 

Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: supp...@snappytelecom.net 

- Original Message -



From: "Bruce Robertson"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Friday, August 26, 2016 5:23:14 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] (OSPF + ibgp) / formerly Mikrotik OSPF weirdness 





As you grow, you'll find it won't scale well. 


On 08/26/2016 02:21 PM, George Skorup wrote: 


I do redist with OSPF. It works fine if you know what you're doing. MT OSPF 
used to act really stupid until ROS v6.27 or thereabouts. 


On 8/26/2016 2:16 PM, Faisal Imtiaz wrote: 




So just for the sake of a technical discussion... 


In your opinion, what is the merit of such a config (osfp + ibgp) ? 


It can be argued that such a config, 
a) Still depends on OSPF functioning. 
b) Layer an additional dynamic protocol on top of it (ibgp) 
c) Requires additional Routers (route reflectors). 


If the merit of such an approach is to manage manage OSFP behavior in a more 
granular fashion, Why not use the those features as they are available in OSPF 
/ Best Practices... 
(OSFP best practices, suggest that, don't advertise connected or static routes, 
setup all interfaces as passive, and control prefix advertisements via the 
network section of OSPF). 


OSPF also tends to be the most common denominator (protocol) across different 
mfg. Bgp being the 2nd. 


Regards 


Faisal Imtiaz 
Snappy Internet & Telecom 
7266 SW 48 Street 
Miami, FL 33155 
Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232 

Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: supp...@snappytelecom.net 

- Original Message -



From: "Jesse DuPont"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Friday, August 26 , 2016 12:03:58 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Mikrotik OSPF weirdness 





Right, PTP and loopback prefixes are distributed with OSPF (and possibly 
management subnets for radios) and "access" network prefixes (customer-facing) 
are distributed via iBGP. 
I have two of my routers configured as BGP route reflectors and all other 
routers peer with only these two; this solves the full mesh and provides 
redundancy. 




Jesse DuPont 

Network Architect 
email: jesse.dup...@celeritycorp.net 
Celerity Networks LLC 
Celerity Broadband LLC 
Like us! facebook.com / celeritynetworksllc 
Like us! facebook.com /celeritybroadband 

On 8/25/16 8:40 PM, David Milholen wrote: 



He may have meant only have the ptp and loopback addresses listed in networks 



On 8/25/2016 9:31 PM, Mike Hammett wrote: 



I've heard this concept a few times now. I'm not sure how only using OSPF for 
the loopbacks works. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Bruce Robertson"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Thursday, August 25 , 2016 6:28:43 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Mikrotik OSPF weirdness 

I've said it before, and been argued with... this is one of many reasons why 
you use iBGP to distribute {customer, dynamic pool, server subnets, anything} 
routes, and use OSPF *only* to distribute router loopback addresses.� All 
your weird OSPF problems will go away.� My apologies if I'm misunderstanding 
the problem, but my point still stands. 


On 08/25/2016 10:22 AM, Robert Haas wrote: 




Alright, this problem has raised it head again on my network since I started to 
renumber some PPPoE pools. 
Customer gets a new IP address via PPPoE x.x.x.208/32 (from x.x.x.192/27 pool). 
Customer can�t surf and I can�t ping them from my office: 
� 
[office] � [Bernie 

Re: [AFMUG] Fw: Google Fiber information

[Josh Reynolds]

Have you seen the battery backup requirements for VoIP lately?

On Aug 27, 2016 6:39 PM, "Chuck McCown"  wrote:

> I can do brownfield for $3500 or less.  $2500 if not expensive battery
> backed GPON.
>
> -Original Message- From: Bill Prince
> Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2016 10:19 AM
> To: af@afmug.com
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Fw: Google Fiber information
>
> I'm with Ken on this. $50/sub does not seem possible. That doesn't even
> cover the ONT. I might believe $500/sub, but that might be a stretch
> depending on the neighborhood.
>
> Wasn't the $250 million a quarterly number though?
>
>
> bp
> 
>
> On 8/27/2016 8:47 AM, Ken Hohhof wrote:
>
>> Your numbers are confusing me, $250M for 5M subs would be $50 per sub.
>> And supposedly Google spent $1 billion on Kansas City alone and the number
>> of $1000 per sub is thrown around for urban FTTH.
>>
>> It also seems Rory is including the cost not just to build out FTTH, but
>> to do it on an accelerated schedule and to do the marketing and promotions
>> to get to 85% take rate.
>>
>> Another takeaway I haven't heard much discussion about is that reportedly
>> Google TV has been a dismal failure.  I'm not sure what their subscribers
>> are using for their TV, probably OTT services?
>>
>>
>> -Original Message- From: Chuck McCown
>> Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2016 10:23 AM
>> To: af@afmug.com
>> Subject: [AFMUG] Fw: Google Fiber information
>>
>> I don't know why you would think it takes $250M to do 5M subs.  I do
>> construction in high density residential all day long at 5-10% of that
>> cost.
>>
>> -Original Message- From: Chuck McCown
>> Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2016 9:00 AM
>> To: af@afmug.com
>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Google Fiber information
>>
>> I am talking about Eagle Mountain Utah.  Lots of starter homes and super
>> stingy young Mormon families.  85% happens.  It truly does.
>>
>> -Original Message- From: Rory Conaway
>> Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2016 8:57 AM
>> To: af@afmug.com
>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Google Fiber information
>>
>> I understand that there are areas where you might have an 85% but that was
>> before the days of half of all households have someone on public
>> assistance.
>> And if you notice, Google only cherry picked high income areas. If I
>> targeted only Scottsdale with houses that average $1M and up and my
>> competitor was crap, I'd get a high uptake also.  Most of our areas are
>> middle class, lower-middle class, and even below that.  Budget matters,
>> people are skeptical, and the effort needed to convert them is much
>> higher.
>>
>> As for the 5M number being realistic, depends on the investment and the
>> market.  If you are just targeting residential internet, it's going to be
>> very, very expensive, like north of $250M to get there within 5 years
>> unless
>> you just buy everyone up.  But there are a lot of people in this country
>> and
>> with average incomes at $30K, a lot of opportunity.  I also believe it's
>> possible to go much higher than that.  DSL is collapsing and the cable
>> companies are following the same stale path they always do without any
>> real
>> innovations.
>>
>> Rory
>>
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Seth Mattinen
>> Sent: Friday, August 26, 2016 11:15 PM
>> To: af@afmug.com
>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Google Fiber information
>>
>> On 8/26/16 6:05 PM, CBB - Jay Fuller wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> i thought it was a rooter?
>>>
>>
>>
>> Only in Canada.
>>
>>
>>
>

[AFMUG] interesting WiFi article

[Paul McCall]

http://www.zdnet.com/article/how-the-nfl-and-its-stadiums-became-leaders-in-wi-fi-monetizing-apps-and-customer-experience/


Paul McCall, President
PDMNet, Inc. / Florida Broadband, Inc.
658 Old Dixie Highway
Vero Beach, FL 32962
772-564-6800
pa...@pdmnet.net
www.pdmnet.com
www.floridabroadband.com

[AFMUG] interesting WiFi article

[Paul McCall]

Paul McCall, President
PDMNet, Inc. / Florida Broadband, Inc.
658 Old Dixie Highway
Vero Beach, FL 32962
772-564-6800
pa...@pdmnet.net
www.pdmnet.com
www.floridabroadband.com

Re: [AFMUG] (OSPF + ibgp) / formerly Mikrotik OSPF weirdness

[Faisal Imtiaz]

you are touching on something interesting... 

by default, bgp is a slower reacting process, which in your case you are using 
as an advantage, but can also be a disadvantage. 

however by the same token you OSPF is supposed to be faster reacting.. on one 
hand you are expecting the fast reaction of the OSPF to hide underlying (l2) 
issues, but on the other hand you are making the case that BGP is stable.. 

Yes from a routing table change basis that would be true, however if there are 
l2 issues causing ospf to change paths, you would be seeing actual issues on 
the physical path... 

Quiet possible that by the time someone notices or tries to identify it , the 
problem may not be visible. 

it has it's pro's and con's 

Interesting ... 

Faisal Imtiaz 
Snappy Internet & Telecom 
7266 SW 48 Street 
Miami, FL 33155 
Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232 

Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: supp...@snappytelecom.net 

> From: "Bruce Robertson" 
> To: af@afmug.com
> Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2016 6:26:09 PM
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] (OSPF + ibgp) / formerly Mikrotik OSPF weirdness

> More elucidation: This assumes you're using router loopback addresses as your
> next hops. BGP doesn't care how you get to your loopbacks, just so that you
> *can* get to them. If your network is designed with redundant paths to each
> loopback, and the state of those paths is handled by OSPF, BGP will never know
> there was a link state change, and your customers won't drop a packet.
> (Assuming, of course, that OSPF can instantly recognize that a link is down -
> no problem with point-to-point Ethernet-type interfaces, but there are some
> OSPF enhancements that solve that problem for link layers that don't give an
> instant indication of problems.)

> On 08/27/2016 03:19 PM, Bruce Robertson wrote:

>> But why even go there? OSPF is a *link state* protocol. BGP is designed for
>> passing prefixes around *regardless* of the link state. Use each protocol for
>> what it was meant for, and happiness will ensue. Do you really want customer
>> reachability information propagating throughout your entire network? All you
>> need is OSPF propagating link state, which is relatively a much smaller size 
>> of
>> possibilities. BGP then stays stable, and doesn't even notice the change. 
>> What
>> if one router has hundreds of customers with unique (non-pool) customers on 
>> it?
>> OSPF will propagate *all* of these customers on every link state change. BGP
>> won't send a single update.

>> On 08/26/2016 03:01 PM, Faisal Imtiaz wrote:

>>> >> As you grow, you'll find it won't scale well.

>>> Care to elaborate more on this ?

>>> By definition it is pointed out that putting hundreds of routers or 
>>> hundreds of
>>> routes are a weak point of OSPF, however there are many different techniques
>>> available to manage that.

>>> Regards.

>>> Faisal Imtiaz
>>> Snappy Internet & Telecom
>>> 7266 SW 48 Street
>>> Miami, FL 33155
>>> Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232

>>> Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: supp...@snappytelecom.net

 From: "Bruce Robertson" 
 To: af@afmug.com
 Sent: Friday, August 26 , 2016 5:23:14 PM
 Subject: Re: [AFMUG] (OSPF + ibgp) / formerly Mikrotik OSPF weirdness

 As you grow, you'll find it won't scale well.

 On 08/26/2016 02:21 PM, George Skorup wrote:

> I do redist with OSPF. It works fine if you know what you're doing. MT 
> OSPF used
> to act really stupid until ROS v6.27 or thereabouts.

> On 8/26/2016 2:16 PM, Faisal Imtiaz wrote:

>> So just for the sake of a technical discussion...

>> In your opinion, what is the merit of such a config (osfp + ibgp) ?

>> It can be argued that such a config,
>> a) Still depends on OSPF functioning.
>> b) Layer an additional dynamic protocol on top of it (ibgp)
>> c) Requires additional Routers (route reflectors).

>> If the merit of such an approach is to manage manage OSFP behavior in a 
>> more
>> granular fashion, Why not use the those features as they are available 
>> in OSPF
>> / Best Practices...
>> (OSFP best practices, suggest that, don't advertise connected or static 
>> routes,
>> setup all interfaces as passive, and control prefix advertisements via 
>> the
>> network section of OSPF).

>> OSPF also tends to be the most common denominator (protocol) across 
>> different
>> mfg. Bgp being the 2nd.

>> Regards

>> Faisal Imtiaz
>> Snappy Internet & Telecom
>> 7266 SW 48 Street
>> Miami, FL 33155
>> Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232

>> Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: supp...@snappytelecom.net

>>> From: "Jesse DuPont" 
>>> To: af@afmug.com
>>> Sent: Friday, August 26 , 2016 12:03:58 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Mikrotik OSPF weirdness

>>> Right, PTP and loopback prefixes are distributed with OSPF (and possibly
>>> management subnets for 

Re: [AFMUG] Fw: Google Fiber information

[Chuck McCown]

I can do brownfield for $3500 or less.  $2500 if not expensive battery 
backed GPON.


-Original Message- 
From: Bill Prince

Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2016 10:19 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Fw: Google Fiber information

I'm with Ken on this. $50/sub does not seem possible. That doesn't even
cover the ONT. I might believe $500/sub, but that might be a stretch
depending on the neighborhood.

Wasn't the $250 million a quarterly number though?


bp


On 8/27/2016 8:47 AM, Ken Hohhof wrote:
Your numbers are confusing me, $250M for 5M subs would be $50 per sub. 
And supposedly Google spent $1 billion on Kansas City alone and the number 
of $1000 per sub is thrown around for urban FTTH.


It also seems Rory is including the cost not just to build out FTTH, but 
to do it on an accelerated schedule and to do the marketing and promotions 
to get to 85% take rate.


Another takeaway I haven't heard much discussion about is that reportedly 
Google TV has been a dismal failure.  I'm not sure what their subscribers 
are using for their TV, probably OTT services?



-Original Message- From: Chuck McCown
Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2016 10:23 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: [AFMUG] Fw: Google Fiber information

I don't know why you would think it takes $250M to do 5M subs.  I do
construction in high density residential all day long at 5-10% of that 
cost.


-Original Message- From: Chuck McCown
Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2016 9:00 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Google Fiber information

I am talking about Eagle Mountain Utah.  Lots of starter homes and super
stingy young Mormon families.  85% happens.  It truly does.

-Original Message- From: Rory Conaway
Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2016 8:57 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Google Fiber information

I understand that there are areas where you might have an 85% but that was
before the days of half of all households have someone on public 
assistance.

And if you notice, Google only cherry picked high income areas. If I
targeted only Scottsdale with houses that average $1M and up and my
competitor was crap, I'd get a high uptake also.  Most of our areas are
middle class, lower-middle class, and even below that.  Budget matters,
people are skeptical, and the effort needed to convert them is much 
higher.


As for the 5M number being realistic, depends on the investment and the
market.  If you are just targeting residential internet, it's going to be
very, very expensive, like north of $250M to get there within 5 years 
unless
you just buy everyone up.  But there are a lot of people in this country 
and

with average incomes at $30K, a lot of opportunity.  I also believe it's
possible to go much higher than that.  DSL is collapsing and the cable
companies are following the same stale path they always do without any 
real

innovations.

Rory


-Original Message-
From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Seth Mattinen
Sent: Friday, August 26, 2016 11:15 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Google Fiber information

On 8/26/16 6:05 PM, CBB - Jay Fuller wrote:


i thought it was a rooter?



Only in Canada.

Re: [AFMUG] Fw: Google Fiber information

[Chuck McCown]

Can't do math it appears.  I was thinking 5000 subs.  Sorry.

-Original Message- 
From: Ken Hohhof

Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2016 9:47 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Fw: Google Fiber information

Your numbers are confusing me, $250M for 5M subs would be $50 per sub.  And
supposedly Google spent $1 billion on Kansas City alone and the number of
$1000 per sub is thrown around for urban FTTH.

It also seems Rory is including the cost not just to build out FTTH, but to
do it on an accelerated schedule and to do the marketing and promotions to
get to 85% take rate.

Another takeaway I haven't heard much discussion about is that reportedly
Google TV has been a dismal failure.  I'm not sure what their subscribers
are using for their TV, probably OTT services?


-Original Message- 
From: Chuck McCown

Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2016 10:23 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: [AFMUG] Fw: Google Fiber information

I don't know why you would think it takes $250M to do 5M subs.  I do
construction in high density residential all day long at 5-10% of that cost.

-Original Message- 
From: Chuck McCown

Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2016 9:00 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Google Fiber information

I am talking about Eagle Mountain Utah.  Lots of starter homes and super
stingy young Mormon families.  85% happens.  It truly does.

-Original Message- 
From: Rory Conaway

Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2016 8:57 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Google Fiber information

I understand that there are areas where you might have an 85% but that was
before the days of half of all households have someone on public assistance.
And if you notice, Google only cherry picked high income areas.  If I
targeted only Scottsdale with houses that average $1M and up and my
competitor was crap, I'd get a high uptake also.  Most of our areas are
middle class, lower-middle class, and even below that.  Budget matters,
people are skeptical, and the effort needed to convert them is much higher.

As for the 5M number being realistic, depends on the investment and the
market.  If you are just targeting residential internet, it's going to be
very, very expensive, like north of $250M to get there within 5 years unless
you just buy everyone up.  But there are a lot of people in this country and
with average incomes at $30K, a lot of opportunity.  I also believe it's
possible to go much higher than that.  DSL is collapsing and the cable
companies are following the same stale path they always do without any real
innovations.

Rory


-Original Message-
From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Seth Mattinen
Sent: Friday, August 26, 2016 11:15 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Google Fiber information

On 8/26/16 6:05 PM, CBB - Jay Fuller wrote:


i thought it was a rooter?



Only in Canada.

Re: [AFMUG] (OSPF + ibgp) / formerly Mikrotik OSPF weirdness

[Bruce Robertson]

More elucidation:  This assumes you're using router loopback addresses 
as your next hops.  BGP doesn't care how you get to your loopbacks, just 
so that you *can* get to them.  If your network is designed with 
redundant paths to each loopback, and the state of those paths is 
handled by OSPF, BGP will never know there was a link state change, and 
your customers won't drop a packet.  (Assuming, of course, that OSPF can 
instantly recognize that a link is down - no problem with point-to-point 
Ethernet-type interfaces, but there are some OSPF enhancements that 
solve that problem for link layers that don't give an instant indication 
of problems.)


On 08/27/2016 03:19 PM, Bruce Robertson wrote:
But why even go there?  OSPF is a *link state* protocol.  BGP is 
designed for passing prefixes around *regardless* of the link state.  
Use each protocol for what it was meant for, and happiness will 
ensue.  Do you really want customer reachability information 
propagating throughout your entire network?  All you need is OSPF 
propagating link state, which is relatively a much smaller size of 
possibilities.  BGP then stays stable, and doesn't even notice the 
change.  What if one router has hundreds of customers with unique 
(non-pool) customers on it?  OSPF will propagate *all* of these 
customers on every link state change.  BGP won't send a single update.


On 08/26/2016 03:01 PM, Faisal Imtiaz wrote:

>>As you grow, you'll find it won't scale well.

Care to elaborate more on this ?

By definition it is pointed out that putting hundreds of routers or 
hundreds of routes are a weak point of OSPF, however there are many 
different techniques available to manage that.


Regards.

Faisal Imtiaz
Snappy Internet & Telecom
7266 SW 48 Street
Miami, FL 33155
Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232

Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: supp...@snappytelecom.net



*From: *"Bruce Robertson" 
*To: *af@afmug.com
*Sent: *Friday, August 26, 2016 5:23:14 PM
*Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] (OSPF + ibgp) / formerly Mikrotik OSPF
weirdness

As you grow, you'll find it won't scale well.

On 08/26/2016 02:21 PM, George Skorup wrote:

I do redist with OSPF. It works fine if you know what you're
doing. MT OSPF used to act really stupid until ROS v6.27 or
thereabouts.

On 8/26/2016 2:16 PM, Faisal Imtiaz wrote:

So just for the sake of a technical discussion...

In your opinion, what is the merit of such a config (osfp
+ ibgp) ?

It can be argued that such a config,
  a) Still depends on OSPF functioning.
  b) Layer an additional dynamic protocol on top of it (ibgp)
  c) Requires additional  Routers (route reflectors).

If the merit of such an approach is to manage manage OSFP
behavior in a  more granular fashion,  Why not use the
those features as they are available in  OSPF / Best
Practices...
   (OSFP  best practices, suggest that, don't advertise
connected or static routes, setup all interfaces as
passive, and control prefix advertisements via the
network section of OSPF).

OSPF also tends to be the most common denominator
(protocol) across different mfg.  Bgp being the 2nd.

Regards

Faisal Imtiaz
Snappy Internet & Telecom
7266 SW 48 Street
Miami, FL 33155
Tel: 305 663 5518  x 232

Help-desk: (305)663-5518 
Option 2 or Email: supp...@snappytelecom.net




*From: *"Jesse DuPont" 
*To: *af@afmug.com
*Sent: *Friday, August 26, 2016 12:03:58 AM
*Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Mikrotik OSPF weirdness

Right, PTP and loopback prefixes are distributed with
OSPF (and possibly management subnets for radios) and
"access" network prefixes (customer-facing) are
distributed via iBGP.
I have two of my routers configured as BGP route
reflectors and all other routers peer with only these
two; this solves the full mesh and provides redundancy.

*Jesse DuPont*

Network Architect
email: jesse.dup...@celeritycorp.net
Celerity Networks LLC

Celerity Broadband LLC
Like us! facebook.com/celeritynetworksllc

Like us! facebook.com/celeritybroadband

On 8/25/16 8:40 PM, David Milholen wrote:

He may have meant only have the ptp and loopback
  

Re: [AFMUG] (OSPF + ibgp) / formerly Mikrotik OSPF weirdness

[Bruce Robertson]

But why even go there?  OSPF is a *link state* protocol.  BGP is 
designed for passing prefixes around *regardless* of the link state.  
Use each protocol for what it was meant for, and happiness will ensue.  
Do you really want customer reachability information propagating 
throughout your entire network?  All you need is OSPF propagating link 
state, which is relatively a much smaller size of possibilities.  BGP 
then stays stable, and doesn't even notice the change.  What if one 
router has hundreds of customers with unique (non-pool) customers on 
it?  OSPF will propagate *all* of these customers on every link state 
change.  BGP won't send a single update.


On 08/26/2016 03:01 PM, Faisal Imtiaz wrote:

>>As you grow, you'll find it won't scale well.

Care to elaborate more on this ?

By definition it is pointed out that putting hundreds of routers or 
hundreds of routes are a weak point of OSPF, however there are many 
different techniques available to manage that.


Regards.

Faisal Imtiaz
Snappy Internet & Telecom
7266 SW 48 Street
Miami, FL 33155
Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232

Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: supp...@snappytelecom.net



*From: *"Bruce Robertson" 
*To: *af@afmug.com
*Sent: *Friday, August 26, 2016 5:23:14 PM
*Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] (OSPF + ibgp) / formerly Mikrotik OSPF
weirdness

As you grow, you'll find it won't scale well.

On 08/26/2016 02:21 PM, George Skorup wrote:

I do redist with OSPF. It works fine if you know what you're
doing. MT OSPF used to act really stupid until ROS v6.27 or
thereabouts.

On 8/26/2016 2:16 PM, Faisal Imtiaz wrote:

So just for the sake of a technical discussion...

In your opinion, what is the merit of such a config (osfp
+ ibgp) ?

It can be argued that such a config,
  a) Still depends on OSPF functioning.
  b) Layer an additional dynamic protocol on top of it (ibgp)
  c) Requires additional  Routers (route reflectors).

If the merit of such an approach is to manage manage OSFP
behavior in a  more granular fashion,  Why not use the
those features as they are available in  OSPF / Best
Practices...
   (OSFP  best practices, suggest that, don't advertise
connected or static routes, setup all interfaces as
passive, and control prefix advertisements via the network
section of OSPF).

OSPF also tends to be the most common denominator
(protocol) across different mfg.  Bgp being the 2nd.

Regards

Faisal Imtiaz
Snappy Internet & Telecom
7266 SW 48 Street
Miami, FL 33155
Tel: 305 663 5518  x 232

Help-desk: (305)663-5518  Option
2 or Email: supp...@snappytelecom.net




*From: *"Jesse DuPont" 
*To: *af@afmug.com
*Sent: *Friday, August 26, 2016 12:03:58 AM
*Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Mikrotik OSPF weirdness

Right, PTP and loopback prefixes are distributed with
OSPF (and possibly management subnets for radios) and
"access" network prefixes (customer-facing) are
distributed via iBGP.
I have two of my routers configured as BGP route
reflectors and all other routers peer with only these
two; this solves the full mesh and provides redundancy.

*Jesse DuPont*

Network Architect
email: jesse.dup...@celeritycorp.net
Celerity Networks LLC

Celerity Broadband LLC
Like us! facebook.com/celeritynetworksllc

Like us! facebook.com/celeritybroadband

On 8/25/16 8:40 PM, David Milholen wrote:

He may have meant only have the ptp and loopback
addresses listed in networks



On 8/25/2016 9:31 PM, Mike Hammett wrote:

I've heard this concept a few times now. I'm
not sure how only using OSPF for the loopbacks
works.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions



Midwest Internet Exchange

Re: [AFMUG] infrastructure PTR naming conventions

[Paul Stewart]

Thanks .. very good point .. it was actually a typo on my part…

 

Everything is part of man.domain.com so example bdr02-tor2.man.domain.com etc 

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Robbie Wright
Sent: August 27, 2016 1:17 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] infrastructure PTR naming conventions

 

Of note,  v13.eth1.locID.tld.net   is much 
different than v13-eth1-locID.tld.net   when it 
comes to dns. If you use periods in your names, you're actually creating 
subzones, which can greatly complicate your life and your dns. Unless you have 
a very strong reason to use sub zones, like you run dns in different states 
with different resolvers, or AD is in your main tld  (like you should be), then 
stick to hyphens. 

 

On Aug 27, 2016 8:43 AM, "Paul Stewart"  > wrote:

All of our RFC1918 space is for management so they all follow 
device.man.loc.domain.com  

 

Device – device name

Man – management

Loc – three letter location POP code

Domain.com – our domain 

 

These internal zones are not reachable from the outside

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com  ] On Behalf 
Of That One Guy /sarcasm
Sent: August 24, 2016 10:12 AM
To: af@afmug.com  
Subject: [AFMUG] infrastructure PTR naming conventions

 

I know this is alot like asking which mail server is best or which cable to 
use. Im putting up a DNS server with our rfc1918 space thats in use on it. Ive 
been reading a ton of conventions people use, some granular, some vague. 

anybody care to share some examples?


 

-- 

If you only see yourself as part of the team but you don't see your team as 
part of yourself you have already failed as part of the team.

Re: [AFMUG] infrastructure PTR naming conventions

[Robbie Wright]

Of note,  v13.eth1.locID.tld.net is much different than
v13-eth1-locID.tld.net when it comes to dns. If you use periods in your
names, you're actually creating subzones, which can greatly complicate your
life and your dns. Unless you have a very strong reason to use sub zones,
like you run dns in different states with different resolvers, or AD is in
your main tld  (like you should be), then stick to hyphens.

On Aug 27, 2016 8:43 AM, "Paul Stewart"  wrote:

> All of our RFC1918 space is for management so they all follow
> device.man.loc.domain.com
>
>
>
> Device – device name
>
> Man – management
>
> Loc – three letter location POP code
>
> Domain.com – our domain
>
>
>
> These internal zones are not reachable from the outside
>
>
>
> *From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *That One Guy
> /sarcasm
> *Sent:* August 24, 2016 10:12 AM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* [AFMUG] infrastructure PTR naming conventions
>
>
>
> I know this is alot like asking which mail server is best or which cable
> to use. Im putting up a DNS server with our rfc1918 space thats in use on
> it. Ive been reading a ton of conventions people use, some granular, some
> vague.
>
> anybody care to share some examples?
>
>
>
> --
>
> If you only see yourself as part of the team but you don't see your team
> as part of yourself you have already failed as part of the team.
>

Re: [AFMUG] (OSPF + ibgp) / formerly Mikrotik OSPF weirdness

[Paul Stewart]

Good questions … as everyone knows and was mentioned, every network operator 
has different ideas and requirements so my answer may help or may not :)

 

Our network is comprised of Juniper MX240,MX480, and MX2010 routers in most 
locations.  These routers fill various roles depending on the location such as 
aggregation, LNS functions (PPPOE), and core/border/edge routing.  All of the 
MX routers are dual stacked and participate in an iBGP mesh.  OSPF is used for 
IPv4 p2p/loopback networks only, OSPFv3 for IPv6 etc etc…   In addition we run 
MPLS across most of the MX routers using RSVP primarily (in some places LDP is 
used inside of RSVP).

 

Our routing tables look like this:

 

inet.0: 629132 destinations, 3533518 routes (629118 active, 24 holddown, 8 
hidden)

  Direct: 30 routes, 29 active

   Local: 28 routes, 28 active

OSPF: 52 routes, 51 active

 BGP: 3533329 routes, 628949 active

  Static: 62 routes, 58 active

IGMP:  1 routes,  1 active

 PIM:  2 routes,  2 active

RSVP: 14 routes,  0 active

 

inet.1: 3 destinations, 3 routes (3 active, 0 holddown, 0 hidden)

   Multicast:  3 routes,  3 active

 

inet.3: 12 destinations, 12 routes (12 active, 0 holddown, 0 hidden)

RSVP: 12 routes, 12 active

 

mpls.0: 140 destinations, 140 routes (140 active, 0 holddown, 0 hidden)

MPLS:  4 routes,  4 active

RSVP:134 routes,134 active

 VPN:  2 routes,  2 active

 

bgp.l3vpn.0: 48 destinations, 87 routes (48 active, 0 holddown, 0 hidden)

  Direct:  4 routes,  4 active

   Local:  2 routes,  2 active

 BGP: 80 routes, 41 active

  Static:  1 routes,  1 active

 

inet6.0: 33157 destinations, 218290 routes (33084 active, 13 holddown, 1594 
hidden)

  Direct: 45 routes, 25 active

   Local: 42 routes, 42 active

   OSPF3: 35 routes, 33 active

 BGP: 218164 routes,  32980 active

  Static:  1 routes,  1 active

 PIM:  2 routes,  2 active

 MLD:  1 routes,  1 active

 

inet6.1: 1 destinations, 1 routes (1 active, 0 holddown, 0 hidden)

   Multicast:  1 routes,  1 active

 

inet6.3: 12 destinations, 12 routes (12 active, 0 holddown, 0 hidden)

RSVP: 12 routes, 12 active

 

bgp.l2vpn.0: 14 destinations, 25 routes (14 active, 0 holddown, 0 hidden)

 BGP: 25 routes, 14 active

 

bgp.mvpn.0: 287 destinations, 574 routes (287 active, 1 holddown, 0 hidden)

 BGP:407 routes,120 active

 PIM:165 routes,165 active

MVPN:  2 routes,  2 active

 

bgp.mvpn-inet6.0: 2 destinations, 2 routes (2 active, 0 holddown, 0 hidden)

MVPN:  2 routes,  2 active

 

 



 

So, with iBGP (and eBGP) we use extensive communities.  These are used for 
identification, traffic engineering, and sharing information with other 
networks as deemed appropriate.  

 

Our DDOS mitigation uses these communities as well to learn what a certain IP 
block is responsible for, which is turn tells the system what type of 
mitigation to perform (clean the traffic through surgical mitigation vs 
blackhole the route).  

 

Our DPI systems (a vendor that is very popular here on the mailing list) learn 
prefix information based on those BGP communities as well, which through some 
automation, we can apply rules dynamically on how to deal with certain types of 
traffic during any events with congestion.  

 

Our Google caches identify what type of service is deployed in that IP block 
(ie. Cable vs fiber vs DSL) and geographic information (again from the 
communities).

 

Our Netflix caches identify geographic information based on communities and 
also allows for us to use intra-city redundancy between POP’s should we lose 
very many caches for whatever reason.

 

Our Akamai caches use community information but I can’t recall how/why – pretty 
sure it’s purely statistical in nature

 

For our network topology we find summarization of routes to be more efficient 
using iBGP vs OSPF  (we have over 15k customers on DSL for example who have 
static subnets)

 

By default, Juniper only resolves BGP routes via inet.3 table – if we kept 
routes in IGP such as OSPF then traffic would be routed via IP and not MPLS 
(yes there are ways around that but for our needs it was less than ideal)

 

 

 

This is just some of the reasons I could come up with … this “evolution” for us 
took a long time especially as MPLS deployments picked up pace which made it 
even more compelling for us to 

Re: [AFMUG] Fw: Google Fiber information

[Bill Prince]

I'm with Ken on this. $50/sub does not seem possible. That doesn't even 
cover the ONT. I might believe $500/sub, but that might be a stretch 
depending on the neighborhood.


Wasn't the $250 million a quarterly number though?


bp


On 8/27/2016 8:47 AM, Ken Hohhof wrote:
Your numbers are confusing me, $250M for 5M subs would be $50 per 
sub.  And supposedly Google spent $1 billion on Kansas City alone and 
the number of $1000 per sub is thrown around for urban FTTH.


It also seems Rory is including the cost not just to build out FTTH, 
but to do it on an accelerated schedule and to do the marketing and 
promotions to get to 85% take rate.


Another takeaway I haven't heard much discussion about is that 
reportedly Google TV has been a dismal failure.  I'm not sure what 
their subscribers are using for their TV, probably OTT services?



-Original Message- From: Chuck McCown
Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2016 10:23 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: [AFMUG] Fw: Google Fiber information

I don't know why you would think it takes $250M to do 5M subs.  I do
construction in high density residential all day long at 5-10% of that 
cost.


-Original Message- From: Chuck McCown
Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2016 9:00 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Google Fiber information

I am talking about Eagle Mountain Utah.  Lots of starter homes and super
stingy young Mormon families.  85% happens.  It truly does.

-Original Message- From: Rory Conaway
Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2016 8:57 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Google Fiber information

I understand that there are areas where you might have an 85% but that 
was
before the days of half of all households have someone on public 
assistance.

And if you notice, Google only cherry picked high income areas. If I
targeted only Scottsdale with houses that average $1M and up and my
competitor was crap, I'd get a high uptake also.  Most of our areas are
middle class, lower-middle class, and even below that.  Budget matters,
people are skeptical, and the effort needed to convert them is much 
higher.


As for the 5M number being realistic, depends on the investment and the
market.  If you are just targeting residential internet, it's going to be
very, very expensive, like north of $250M to get there within 5 years 
unless
you just buy everyone up.  But there are a lot of people in this 
country and

with average incomes at $30K, a lot of opportunity.  I also believe it's
possible to go much higher than that.  DSL is collapsing and the cable
companies are following the same stale path they always do without any 
real

innovations.

Rory


-Original Message-
From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Seth Mattinen
Sent: Friday, August 26, 2016 11:15 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Google Fiber information

On 8/26/16 6:05 PM, CBB - Jay Fuller wrote:


i thought it was a rooter?



Only in Canada.

Re: [AFMUG] (OSPF + ibgp) / formerly Mikrotik OSPF weirdness

[Mike Hammett]

I keep asking for more because this is a topic I'm extremely interested in. 
Tell me more. Tell me more. :-) 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Paul Stewart"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2016 11:00:51 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] (OSPF + ibgp) / formerly Mikrotik OSPF weirdness 



Yes exactly per my earlier post … everyone wants to jump off the OSPF ship for 
a couple of reasons: 

-Someone told them it’s very bad to scale it up but failed to define what 
“scale” is referring to 

-misconfiguration or misunderstanding of OSPF (common) 

-OS issues (ie. Microtik that’s being talked about a lot) 

Of course it’s not just about scale … for me, the benefits that BGP brings to 
the table far outweigh the benefits of OSPF .. ie. OSPF tags vs BGP communities 




From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Faisal Imtiaz 
Sent: August 26, 2016 6:02 PM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] (OSPF + ibgp) / formerly Mikrotik OSPF weirdness 



>> As you grow, you'll find it won't scale well. 





Care to elaborate more on this ? 





By definition it is pointed out that putting hundreds of routers or hundreds of 
routes are a weak point of OSPF, however there are many different techniques 
available to manage that. 





Regards. 



Faisal Imtiaz 
Snappy Internet & Telecom 
7266 SW 48 Street 
Miami, FL 33155 
Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232 

Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: supp...@snappytelecom.net 


- Original Message -




From: "Bruce Robertson" < br...@pooh.com > 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Friday, August 26, 2016 5:23:14 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] (OSPF + ibgp) / formerly Mikrotik OSPF weirdness 





As you grow, you'll find it won't scale well. 

On 08/26/2016 02:21 PM, George Skorup wrote: 


I do redist with OSPF. It works fine if you know what you're doing. MT OSPF 
used to act really stupid until ROS v6.27 or thereabouts. 

On 8/26/2016 2:16 PM, Faisal Imtiaz wrote: 




So just for the sake of a technical discussion... 



In your opinion, what is the merit of such a config (osfp + ibgp) ? 



It can be argued that such a config, 

a) Still depends on OSPF functioning. 

b) Layer an additional dynamic protocol on top of it (ibgp) 

c) Requires additional Routers (route reflectors). 



If the merit of such an approach is to manage manage OSFP behavior in a more 
granular fashion, Why not use the those features as they are available in OSPF 
/ Best Practices... 

(OSFP best practices, suggest that, don't advertise connected or static routes, 
setup all interfaces as passive, and control prefix advertisements via the 
network section of OSPF). 



OSPF also tends to be the most common denominator (protocol) across different 
mfg. Bgp being the 2nd. 



Regards 



Faisal Imtiaz 
Snappy Internet & Telecom 
7266 SW 48 Street 
Miami, FL 33155 
Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232 

Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: supp...@snappytelecom.net 


- Original Message -




From: "Jesse DuPont"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Friday, August 26 , 2016 12:03:58 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Mikrotik OSPF weirdness 





Right, PTP and loopback prefixes are distributed with OSPF (and possibly 
management subnets for radios) and "access" network prefixes (customer-facing) 
are distributed via iBGP. 
I have two of my routers configured as BGP route reflectors and all other 
routers peer with only these two; this solves the full mesh and provides 
redundancy. 


Jesse DuPont 

Network Architect 
email: jesse.dup...@celeritycorp.net 
Celerity Networks LLC 
Celerity Broadband LLC 
Like us! facebook.com / celeritynetworksllc 
Like us! facebook.com /celeritybroadband 


On 8/25/16 8:40 PM, David Milholen wrote: 


He may have meant only have the ptp and loopback addresses listed in networks 



On 8/25/2016 9:31 PM, Mike Hammett wrote: 



I've heard this concept a few times now. I'm not sure how only using OSPF for 
the loopbacks works. 



- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -


From: "Bruce Robertson"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Thursday, August 25 , 2016 6:28:43 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Mikrotik OSPF weirdness 

I've said it before, and been argued with... this is one of many reasons why 
you use iBGP to distribute {customer, dynamic pool, server subnets, anything} 
routes, and use OSPF *only* to distribute router loopback addresses.� All 
your weird OSPF problems will go away.� My apologies if I'm misunderstanding 
the problem, but my point still stands. 

On 08/25/2016 10:22 AM, Robert Haas wrote: 



Alright, this problem has raised it head again on my network since I started to 
renumber some PPPoE pools. 
Customer gets a new IP address via PPPoE x.x.x.208/32 (from x.x.x.192/27 pool). 
Customer can�t surf and 

Re: [AFMUG] Mikrotik OSPF weirdness

[Ken Hohhof]

And if you get that big, it’s not clear everything needs to be in one area.


From: Paul Stewart 
Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2016 10:52 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Mikrotik OSPF weirdness

Very common deployment model … typically in larger networks.

 

Having said that, and as someone else mentioned I believe, folks often feel 
that OSFP can’t “scale” at all and begin feeling somewhat “forced” into OSPF 
for LB/P2P and iBGP for routes as soon as they get 10,20,30 routers in their 
network and perhaps a couple of hundred subnets.  This is simply not typical 
and OSPF can be much larger in scale before performance is impacted 
significantly 

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Jesse DuPont
Sent: August 26, 2016 12:04 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Mikrotik OSPF weirdness

 

Right, PTP and loopback prefixes are distributed with OSPF (and possibly 
management subnets for radios) and "access" network prefixes (customer-facing) 
are distributed via iBGP.
I have two of my routers configured as BGP route reflectors and all other 
routers peer with only these two; this solves the full mesh and provides 
redundancy.

Jesse DuPont

Network Architect
email: jesse.dup...@celeritycorp.net
Celerity Networks LLC

Celerity Broadband LLC
Like us! facebook.com/celeritynetworksllc

Like us! facebook.com/celeritybroadband


On 8/25/16 8:40 PM, David Milholen wrote:

  He may have meant only have the ptp and loopback addresses listed in networks

   

   

  On 8/25/2016 9:31 PM, Mike Hammett wrote:

I've heard this concept a few times now. I'm not sure how only using OSPF 
for the loopbacks works.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions

Midwest Internet Exchange

The Brothers WISP








From: "Bruce Robertson" mailto:br...@pooh.com
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2016 6:28:43 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Mikrotik OSPF weirdness

I've said it before, and been argued with... this is one of many reasons 
why you use iBGP to distribute {customer, dynamic pool, server subnets, 
anything} routes, and use OSPF *only* to distribute router loopback 
addresses.� All your weird OSPF problems will go away.� My apologies if I'm 
misunderstanding the problem, but my point still stands.

On 08/25/2016 10:22 AM, Robert Haas wrote:

  Alright, this problem has raised it head again on my network since I 
started to renumber some PPPoE pools.

  Customer gets a new IP address via PPPoE x.x.x.208/32 (from x.x.x.192/27 
pool). Customer can�t surf and I can�t ping them from my office:

  �

  [office] � [Bernie Router] � [Braggcity Router] � [Ross Router] � 
[Hayti Router] � [customer]

  �

  A traceroute from my office dies @ the Bernie router but I am not getting 
any type of ICMP response from the Bernie router ie no ICMP Host 
Unreachable/Dest unreachable etc � just blackholes after my office router.

  A traceroute from the Customer to the office again dies at the Bernie 
router with no type of response.

  �

  Checking the routing table on the Bernie router shows a valid route 
pointing to the Braggcity router. It is also in the OSPF LSA�s.

  --

  Another customer gets x.x.x.207/32 and has no issue at all.

  �

  --

  Force the original customer to a new ip address of x.x.x.205/32 and the 
service starts working again.

  �

  --

  �

  Now � even though there is no valid route to x.x.x.208/32 in the 
routing table � traffic destined to the x.x.x.208/32 IP is still getting 
blackholed.. I should be getting a Destination host unreachable from the Bernie 
router.

  �

  This is correct the correct response .206 is not being used and there is 
no route to it:

  C:\Users\netadmin>ping x.x.x.206

  �

  Pinging x.x.x.206 with 32 bytes of data:

  Reply from y.y.y.1: Destination host unreachable.

  Reply from y.y.y.1: Destination host unreachable.

  �

  Ping statistics for x.x.x.206:

  ��� Packets: Sent = 2, Received = 2, Lost = 0 (0% loss),

  �

  C:\Users\netadmin>tracert 74.91.65.206

  �

  Tracing route to host-x.x.x.206.bpsnetworks.com [x.x.x.206]

  over a maximum of 30 hops:

  �

  � 1���� 6 ms���� 6 ms���� 7 ms� z.z.z.z

  � 2���� 6 ms���� 6 ms���� 6 ms� 
y.bpsnetworks.com [y.y.y.1]

  � 3� y.bpsnetworks.com [y.y.y.1] �reports: Destination host 
unreachable.

  �

  Trace complete.

  �

  This is what I see to x.x.x.208 even though it is not being used and 
there is no route to it.

  C:\Users\netadmin>ping x.x.x.208

  �

  Pinging x.x.x.208 with 32 bytes of data:

  Request timed out.

  Request timed out.

  �

  Ping 

Re: [AFMUG] (OSPF + ibgp) / formerly Mikrotik OSPF weirdness

[Paul Stewart]

Yes exactly per my earlier post … everyone wants to jump off the OSPF ship for 
a couple of reasons:

 

-Someone told them it’s very bad to scale it up but failed to define what 
“scale” is referring to

 

-misconfiguration or misunderstanding of OSPF (common)

 

-OS issues (ie. Microtik that’s being talked about a lot)

 

Of course it’s not just about scale … for me, the benefits that BGP brings to 
the table far outweigh the benefits of OSPF .. ie. OSPF tags vs BGP communities

 

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Faisal Imtiaz
Sent: August 26, 2016 6:02 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] (OSPF + ibgp) / formerly Mikrotik OSPF weirdness

 

>>As you grow, you'll find it won't scale well.





Care to elaborate more on this ? 





By definition it is pointed out that putting hundreds of routers or hundreds of 
routes are a weak point of OSPF, however there are many different techniques 
available to manage that. 





Regards.

 

Faisal Imtiaz
Snappy Internet & Telecom
7266 SW 48 Street
Miami, FL 33155
Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232

Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: supp...@snappytelecom.net 
 

 

  _  

From: "Bruce Robertson"  >
To: af@afmug.com  
Sent: Friday, August 26, 2016 5:23:14 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] (OSPF + ibgp) / formerly Mikrotik OSPF weirdness

As you grow, you'll find it won't scale well.

On 08/26/2016 02:21 PM, George Skorup wrote:

I do redist with OSPF. It works fine if you know what you're doing. MT OSPF 
used to act really stupid until ROS v6.27 or thereabouts.

On 8/26/2016 2:16 PM, Faisal Imtiaz wrote:

So just for the sake of a technical discussion... 

 

In your opinion, what is the merit of such a config (osfp + ibgp) ?

 

It can be argued that such a config, 

  a) Still depends on OSPF functioning.

  b) Layer an additional dynamic protocol on top of it (ibgp)

  c) Requires additional  Routers (route reflectors).

 

If the merit of such an approach is to manage manage OSFP behavior in a  more 
granular fashion,  Why not use the those features as they are available in  
OSPF / Best Practices...

   (OSFP  best practices, suggest that, don't advertise connected or static 
routes, setup all interfaces as passive, and control prefix advertisements via 
the network section of OSPF).

 

OSPF also tends to be the most common denominator (protocol) across different 
mfg.  Bgp being the 2nd.

 

Regards

 

Faisal Imtiaz
Snappy Internet & Telecom
7266 SW 48 Street
Miami, FL 33155
Tel: 305 663 5518   x 232

Help-desk: (305)663-5518   Option 2 or Email: 
supp...@snappytelecom.net  

 


  _  


From: "Jesse DuPont"   

To: af@afmug.com  
Sent: Friday, August 26, 2016 12:03:58 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Mikrotik OSPF weirdness

Right, PTP and loopback prefixes are distributed with OSPF (and possibly 
management subnets for radios) and "access" network prefixes (customer-facing) 
are distributed via iBGP.
I have two of my routers configured as BGP route reflectors and all other 
routers peer with only these two; this solves the full mesh and provides 
redundancy.

Jesse DuPont

Network Architect
email: jesse.dup...@celeritycorp.net  
Celerity Networks LLC

Celerity Broadband LLC
Like us! facebook.com/celeritynetworksllc

Like us! facebook.com/celeritybroadband


On 8/25/16 8:40 PM, David Milholen wrote:

He may have meant only have the ptp and loopback addresses listed in networks

 

 

On 8/25/2016 9:31 PM, Mike Hammett wrote:

I've heard this concept a few times now. I'm not sure how only using OSPF for 
the loopbacks works.



-
Mike Hammett
  Intelligent Computing Solutions
   
  
  
 
  Midwest Internet Exchange
   
  
 
  The Brothers WISP
   
 





  _  


From: "Bruce Robertson"   
To: af@afmug.com  
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2016 6:28:43 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Mikrotik OSPF weirdness

I've said it before, and been argued with... this is one of many reasons why 
you use iBGP to distribute {customer, dynamic pool, server subnets, anything} 
routes, and use OSPF *only* to distribute router loopback addresses.� All 
your weird OSPF problems will go away.� My apologies if I'm 

Re: [AFMUG] Mikrotik OSPF weirdness

[Paul Stewart]

Very common deployment model … typically in larger networks.

 

Having said that, and as someone else mentioned I believe, folks often feel 
that OSFP can’t “scale” at all and begin feeling somewhat “forced” into OSPF 
for LB/P2P and iBGP for routes as soon as they get 10,20,30 routers in their 
network and perhaps a couple of hundred subnets.  This is simply not typical 
and OSPF can be much larger in scale before performance is impacted 
significantly 

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Jesse DuPont
Sent: August 26, 2016 12:04 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Mikrotik OSPF weirdness

 

Right, PTP and loopback prefixes are distributed with OSPF (and possibly 
management subnets for radios) and "access" network prefixes (customer-facing) 
are distributed via iBGP.
I have two of my routers configured as BGP route reflectors and all other 
routers peer with only these two; this solves the full mesh and provides 
redundancy.

Jesse DuPont

Network Architect
email: jesse.dup...@celeritycorp.net  
Celerity Networks LLC

Celerity Broadband LLC
Like us! facebook.com/celeritynetworksllc

Like us! facebook.com/celeritybroadband


On 8/25/16 8:40 PM, David Milholen wrote:

He may have meant only have the ptp and loopback addresses listed in networks

 

 

On 8/25/2016 9:31 PM, Mike Hammett wrote:

I've heard this concept a few times now. I'm not sure how only using OSPF for 
the loopbacks works.



-
Mike Hammett
  Intelligent Computing Solutions
   
  
  
 
  Midwest Internet Exchange
   
  
 
  The Brothers WISP
   
 





  _  


From: "Bruce Robertson"   
To: af@afmug.com  
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2016 6:28:43 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Mikrotik OSPF weirdness

I've said it before, and been argued with... this is one of many reasons why 
you use iBGP to distribute {customer, dynamic pool, server subnets, anything} 
routes, and use OSPF *only* to distribute router loopback addresses.� All 
your weird OSPF problems will go away.� My apologies if I'm misunderstanding 
the problem, but my point still stands.

On 08/25/2016 10:22 AM, Robert Haas wrote:

Alright, this problem has raised it head again on my network since I started to 
renumber some PPPoE pools.

Customer gets a new IP address via PPPoE x.x.x.208/32 (from x.x.x.192/27 pool). 
Customer can�t surf and I can�t ping them from my office:

�

[office] � [Bernie Router] � [Braggcity Router] � [Ross Router] � 
[Hayti Router] � [customer]

�

A traceroute from my office dies @ the Bernie router but I am not getting any 
type of ICMP response from the Bernie router ie no ICMP Host Unreachable/Dest 
unreachable etc � just blackholes after my office router.

A traceroute from the Customer to the office again dies at the Bernie router 
with no type of response.

�

Checking the routing table on the Bernie router shows a valid route pointing to 
the Braggcity router. It is also in the OSPF LSA�s.

--

Another customer gets x.x.x.207/32 and has no issue at all.

�

--

Force the original customer to a new ip address of x.x.x.205/32 and the service 
starts working again.

�

--

�

Now � even though there is no valid route to x.x.x.208/32 in the routing 
table � traffic destined to the x.x.x.208/32 IP is still getting blackholed.. 
I should be getting a Destination host unreachable from the Bernie router.

�

This is correct the correct response .206 is not being used and there is no 
route to it:

C:\Users\netadmin>ping x.x.x.206

�

Pinging x.x.x.206 with 32 bytes of data:

Reply from y.y.y.1: Destination host unreachable.

Reply from y.y.y.1: Destination host unreachable.

�

Ping statistics for x.x.x.206:

��� Packets: Sent = 2, Received = 2, Lost = 0 (0% loss),

�

C:\Users\netadmin>tracert 74.91.65.206

�

Tracing route to host-x.x.x.206.bpsnetworks.com [x.x.x.206]

over a maximum of 30 hops:

�

� 1���� 6 ms���� 6 ms���� 7 ms� z.z.z.z

� 2���� 6 ms���� 6 ms���� 6 ms� y.bpsnetworks.com 
[y.y.y.1]

� 3� y.bpsnetworks.com [y.y.y.1] �reports: Destination host unreachable.

�

Trace complete.

�

This is what I see to x.x.x.208 even though it is not being used and there is 
no route to it.

C:\Users\netadmin>ping x.x.x.208

�

Pinging x.x.x.208 with 32 bytes of data:

Request timed out.

Request timed out.

�

Ping 

Re: [AFMUG] Fw: Google Fiber information

[Ken Hohhof]

Your numbers are confusing me, $250M for 5M subs would be $50 per sub.  And 
supposedly Google spent $1 billion on Kansas City alone and the number of 
$1000 per sub is thrown around for urban FTTH.


It also seems Rory is including the cost not just to build out FTTH, but to 
do it on an accelerated schedule and to do the marketing and promotions to 
get to 85% take rate.


Another takeaway I haven't heard much discussion about is that reportedly 
Google TV has been a dismal failure.  I'm not sure what their subscribers 
are using for their TV, probably OTT services?



-Original Message- 
From: Chuck McCown

Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2016 10:23 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: [AFMUG] Fw: Google Fiber information

I don't know why you would think it takes $250M to do 5M subs.  I do
construction in high density residential all day long at 5-10% of that cost.

-Original Message- 
From: Chuck McCown

Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2016 9:00 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Google Fiber information

I am talking about Eagle Mountain Utah.  Lots of starter homes and super
stingy young Mormon families.  85% happens.  It truly does.

-Original Message- 
From: Rory Conaway

Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2016 8:57 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Google Fiber information

I understand that there are areas where you might have an 85% but that was
before the days of half of all households have someone on public assistance.
And if you notice, Google only cherry picked high income areas.  If I
targeted only Scottsdale with houses that average $1M and up and my
competitor was crap, I'd get a high uptake also.  Most of our areas are
middle class, lower-middle class, and even below that.  Budget matters,
people are skeptical, and the effort needed to convert them is much higher.

As for the 5M number being realistic, depends on the investment and the
market.  If you are just targeting residential internet, it's going to be
very, very expensive, like north of $250M to get there within 5 years unless
you just buy everyone up.  But there are a lot of people in this country and
with average incomes at $30K, a lot of opportunity.  I also believe it's
possible to go much higher than that.  DSL is collapsing and the cable
companies are following the same stale path they always do without any real
innovations.

Rory


-Original Message-
From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Seth Mattinen
Sent: Friday, August 26, 2016 11:15 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Google Fiber information

On 8/26/16 6:05 PM, CBB - Jay Fuller wrote:


i thought it was a rooter?



Only in Canada.

Re: [AFMUG] Comtrend

[Paul Stewart]

Used them a LOT in my former employer .. they were also a distributor of them 
too in Canada

 

Worked well overall … a few firmware issues and upgrades needed for various 
deployments (ie. VPI/VCI changes) … for VDSL in particular they went with Xyxel 
more 

 

As a router itself didn’t like them so much personally … as a bridge modem they 
worked quite well

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Matt Hopkins
Sent: August 24, 2016 1:23 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: [AFMUG] Comtrend

 

Hey all,

Quick question, anyone have any experience with Comtrend endpoints? 
Specifically their higher end VDSL, and residential gateways. Opinions,results? 



-- 




Matt Hopkins
Network Administrator
supp...@onlinenw.com  
onlinenw.com   

 

Re: [AFMUG] infrastructure PTR naming conventions

[Paul Stewart]

All of our RFC1918 space is for management so they all follow 
device.man.loc.domain.com

 

Device – device name

Man – management

Loc – three letter location POP code

Domain.com – our domain 

 

These internal zones are not reachable from the outside

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of That One Guy /sarcasm
Sent: August 24, 2016 10:12 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: [AFMUG] infrastructure PTR naming conventions

 

I know this is alot like asking which mail server is best or which cable to 
use. Im putting up a DNS server with our rfc1918 space thats in use on it. Ive 
been reading a ton of conventions people use, some granular, some vague. 

anybody care to share some examples?


 

-- 

If you only see yourself as part of the team but you don't see your team as 
part of yourself you have already failed as part of the team.

[AFMUG] Fw: Google Fiber information

[Chuck McCown]

I don't know why you would think it takes $250M to do 5M subs.  I do
construction in high density residential all day long at 5-10% of that cost.

-Original Message- 
From: Chuck McCown

Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2016 9:00 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Google Fiber information

I am talking about Eagle Mountain Utah.  Lots of starter homes and super
stingy young Mormon families.  85% happens.  It truly does.

-Original Message- 
From: Rory Conaway

Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2016 8:57 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Google Fiber information

I understand that there are areas where you might have an 85% but that was
before the days of half of all households have someone on public assistance.
And if you notice, Google only cherry picked high income areas.  If I
targeted only Scottsdale with houses that average $1M and up and my
competitor was crap, I'd get a high uptake also.  Most of our areas are
middle class, lower-middle class, and even below that.  Budget matters,
people are skeptical, and the effort needed to convert them is much higher.

As for the 5M number being realistic, depends on the investment and the
market.  If you are just targeting residential internet, it's going to be
very, very expensive, like north of $250M to get there within 5 years unless
you just buy everyone up.  But there are a lot of people in this country and
with average incomes at $30K, a lot of opportunity.  I also believe it's
possible to go much higher than that.  DSL is collapsing and the cable
companies are following the same stale path they always do without any real
innovations.

Rory


-Original Message-
From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Seth Mattinen
Sent: Friday, August 26, 2016 11:15 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Google Fiber information

On 8/26/16 6:05 PM, CBB - Jay Fuller wrote:


i thought it was a rooter?



Only in Canada.

Re: [AFMUG] Google Fiber information

[Chuck McCown]

I am talking about Eagle Mountain Utah.  Lots of starter homes and super 
stingy young Mormon families.  85% happens.  It truly does.


-Original Message- 
From: Rory Conaway

Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2016 8:57 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Google Fiber information

I understand that there are areas where you might have an 85% but that was 
before the days of half of all households have someone on public assistance. 
And if you notice, Google only cherry picked high income areas.  If I 
targeted only Scottsdale with houses that average $1M and up and my 
competitor was crap, I'd get a high uptake also.  Most of our areas are 
middle class, lower-middle class, and even below that.  Budget matters, 
people are skeptical, and the effort needed to convert them is much higher.


As for the 5M number being realistic, depends on the investment and the 
market.  If you are just targeting residential internet, it's going to be 
very, very expensive, like north of $250M to get there within 5 years unless 
you just buy everyone up.  But there are a lot of people in this country and 
with average incomes at $30K, a lot of opportunity.  I also believe it's 
possible to go much higher than that.  DSL is collapsing and the cable 
companies are following the same stale path they always do without any real 
innovations.


Rory


-Original Message-
From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Seth Mattinen
Sent: Friday, August 26, 2016 11:15 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Google Fiber information

On 8/26/16 6:05 PM, CBB - Jay Fuller wrote:


i thought it was a rooter?



Only in Canada. 

Re: [AFMUG] Google Fiber information

[Rory Conaway]

I understand that there are areas where you might have an 85% but that was 
before the days of half of all households have someone on public assistance.  
And if you notice, Google only cherry picked high income areas.  If I targeted 
only Scottsdale with houses that average $1M and up and my competitor was crap, 
I'd get a high uptake also.  Most of our areas are middle class, lower-middle 
class, and even below that.  Budget matters, people are skeptical, and the 
effort needed to convert them is much higher.

As for the 5M number being realistic, depends on the investment and the market. 
 If you are just targeting residential internet, it's going to be very, very 
expensive, like north of $250M to get there within 5 years unless you just buy 
everyone up.  But there are a lot of people in this country and with average 
incomes at $30K, a lot of opportunity.  I also believe it's possible to go much 
higher than that.  DSL is collapsing and the cable companies are following the 
same stale path they always do without any real innovations. 

Rory


-Original Message-
From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Seth Mattinen
Sent: Friday, August 26, 2016 11:15 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Google Fiber information

On 8/26/16 6:05 PM, CBB - Jay Fuller wrote:
>
> i thought it was a rooter?


Only in Canada.

Re: [AFMUG] (OSPF + ibgp) / formerly Mikrotik OSPF weirdness

[Mike Hammett]

Bruce, do you have anything to add regarding using BGP instead of OSPF to 
distribute your access network? 

What I got out of that mainly is that you don't have to deal with summarization 
if you're just using BGP to do it anyway. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Jesse DuPont"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Friday, August 26, 2016 10:36:42 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] (OSPF + ibgp) / formerly Mikrotik OSPF weirdness 

For me, it was a bit of an experiment, but I have ended up liking it. Yes, it 
does add some overhead, but I didn't have to add routers to be the route 
reflectors - I just chose two routers which provided good geographic redundancy 
balanced with being as well-connected as possible to the rest of the routers 
and checked the "route reflect to peers" box. Route reflecting is really no 
more intensive than just BGP peering; probably most already know this, but the 
only different between a route reflector and a non-route reflector is that at 
route reflector is allowed to break the iBGP rule of not disseminating routes 
learned from one peer to another peer. 

One of the things I really like about using BGP for access prefixes is that I 
don't have to mess with filters or using non-backbone areas and area-ranges to 
summarize pools used for things like PPPoE. It's nice that more recent versions 
of MikroTik automate adding the U route of a summarized area-range after the 
first connected route shows up, but with BGP, I simply add the prefix to 
Networks and it's done. 

Another advantage, albeit a "band-aid" one is that if I'm having some link 
quality issue that is ultimately causing OSPF to lose adjacency (packet loss 
causing dropped Hello's, for example, or some jackass carrier providing a 
circuit that upgrades their platform and they don't read the release notes and 
multicast gets dropped...), I can deploy a small handful of static routes to 
improve stability slightly until I can resolve the issue (just a small time 
saver). 

Obviously, none of this functionality REQUIRES the use of BGP and it can all be 
done using OSPF. Indeed, while I'm using OSPF + iBGP in my WISP, the telco I'm 
also the network architect/engineer at uses only OSPF as the IGP and we have 
thousands of internal OSPF routes and dozens of routers in the backbone area 
(along with others in non-backbone areas) and it's extremely stable. I think 
its easy to misinterpret problems which manifest themselves as OSPF issues, but 
are really just OSPF reacting to some other condition; the canary in the coal 
mine, if you will. 

 If you're having issues with OSPF losing adjacencies or changing from 
full to down or full to init, you've got some problem with the link. Period. 
OSPF is not the problem. OSPF has been stable in MikroTiks since 3.x. 




Jesse DuPont 

Network Architect 
email: jesse.dup...@celeritycorp.net 
Celerity Networks LLC 
Celerity Broadband LLC 
Like us! facebook.com / celeritynetworksllc 
Like us! facebook.com /celeritybroadband 

On 8/26/16 1:16 PM, Faisal Imtiaz wrote: 




So just for the sake of a technical discussion... 


In your opinion, what is the merit of such a config (osfp + ibgp) ? 


It can be argued that such a config, 
a) Still depends on OSPF functioning. 
b) Layer an additional dynamic protocol on top of it (ibgp) 
c) Requires additional Routers (route reflectors). 


If the merit of such an approach is to manage manage OSFP behavior in a more 
granular fashion, Why not use the those features as they are available in OSPF 
/ Best Practices... 
(OSFP best practices, suggest that, don't advertise connected or static routes, 
setup all interfaces as passive, and control prefix advertisements via the 
network section of OSPF). 


OSPF also tends to be the most common denominator (protocol) across different 
mfg. Bgp being the 2nd. 


Regards 


Faisal Imtiaz 
Snappy Internet & Telecom 
7266 SW 48 Street 
Miami, FL 33155 
Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232 

Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: supp...@snappytelecom.net 

- Original Message -



From: "Jesse DuPont"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Friday, August 26, 2016 12:03:58 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Mikrotik OSPF weirdness 





Right, PTP and loopback prefixes are distributed with OSPF (and possibly 
management subnets for radios) and "access" network prefixes (customer-facing) 
are distributed via iBGP. 
I have two of my routers configured as BGP route reflectors and all other 
routers peer with only these two; this solves the full mesh and provides 
redundancy. 




Jesse DuPont 

Network Architect 
email: jesse.dup...@celeritycorp.net 
Celerity Networks LLC 
Celerity Broadband LLC 
Like us! facebook.com / celeritynetworksllc 
Like us! facebook.com /celeritybroadband 

On 8/25/16 8:40 PM, David Milholen wrote: 



He may have meant only have the ptp and loopback 

Re: [AFMUG] Google Fiber information

[Mike Hammett]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBsihvpPyTw=youtu.be=28m52s 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "CBB - Jay Fuller"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Friday, August 26, 2016 8:05:20 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Google Fiber information 

 

i thought it was a rooter? 



- Original Message - 
From: Ken Hohhof 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Friday, August 26, 2016 1:27 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Google Fiber information 

I predict that "fiber" will soon be added to the list of words people use 
wrongly. Like WiFi, broadband, satellite. It will probably become 
synonymous with gigabit. And since people say WiFi when they mean Internet, 
and satellite when they mean antenna, people will probably say things like 
"I got new WiFi, now I have a fiber satellite". Oh, and people say modem 
when they mean router, which Google Fiber avoided by giving you a "Network 
Box". 


-Original Message- 
From: Seth Mattinen 
Sent: Friday, August 26, 2016 11:07 AM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Google Fiber information 

On 8/26/16 08:47, Bill Prince wrote: 
> Someone please explain what a "fiber optic antenna" is? 
> 
> /"Alphabet is also actively exploring how it can solve the cost of 
> laying cable through using less expensive technology and existing 
> infrastructure. Last month Google acquired Webpass, a company that uses 
> fiber optic antennas to facilitate high-speed internet."/ 
> 


Wireless is often a dirty word. 

~Seth 

Re: [AFMUG] ePMP Upload 1-2Mbps

[Lewis Bergman]

Seen it many times with interference on the AP side.

On Sat, Aug 27, 2016, 7:09 AM Josh Luthman 
wrote:

> RF link tests and or others?
>
> What modulation are they in each mode?
>
> Changed channels?
>
> Josh Luthman
> Office: 937-552-2340
> Direct: 937-552-2343
> 1100 Wayne St
> Suite 1337
> Troy, OH 45373
>
> On Aug 27, 2016 8:03 AM, "Tyson Burris @ Internet Communications Inc" <
> t...@franklinisp.net> wrote:
>
>> Good morning geeks,
>>
>>
>>
>> I have a sector with an ePMP running GPS, 75/25 ratio, FW 2.6.1
>>
>> Recently the upload has gone to crap.  The RX/TX on the remote links look
>> great.
>>
>> Different RFs have been tested.
>>
>>
>>
>> The downloads are consistent.  The upload never exceeds 1-2Mbps.
>>
>> This is on 20Mhz channel.  Going to 40Mhz channel produces the same exact
>> result.
>>
>> If I convert to FLEX mode, the upload does fall within range of the
>> download.
>>
>>
>>
>> It is isolated to this sector only.  Have you seen this problem before?
>>
>>
>>
>> *Tyson Burris, President*
>> *Internet Communications Inc.*
>> *739 Commerce Dr.*
>> *Franklin, IN 46131*
>>
>> *317-738-0320 <317-738-0320> Daytime #*
>> *317-412-1540 <317-412-1540> Cell/Direct #*
>> *Online: **www.surfici.net* 
>>
>>
>>
>> [image: ICI]
>>
>> *What can ICI do for you?*
>>
>>
>> *Broadband Wireless - PtP/PtMP Solutions - WiMax - Mesh Wifi/Hotzones -
>> IP Security - Fiber - Tower - Infrastructure.*
>>
>> *CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail is intended for the*
>> *addressee shown. It contains information that is*
>> *confidential and protected from disclosure. Any review,*
>> *dissemination or use of this transmission or its contents by*
>> *unauthorized organizations or individuals is strictly*
>> *prohibited.*
>>
>>
>>
>

Re: [AFMUG] ePMP Upload 1-2Mbps

[Josh Luthman]

RF link tests and or others?

What modulation are they in each mode?

Changed channels?

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Aug 27, 2016 8:03 AM, "Tyson Burris @ Internet Communications Inc" <
t...@franklinisp.net> wrote:

> Good morning geeks,
>
>
>
> I have a sector with an ePMP running GPS, 75/25 ratio, FW 2.6.1
>
> Recently the upload has gone to crap.  The RX/TX on the remote links look
> great.
>
> Different RFs have been tested.
>
>
>
> The downloads are consistent.  The upload never exceeds 1-2Mbps.
>
> This is on 20Mhz channel.  Going to 40Mhz channel produces the same exact
> result.
>
> If I convert to FLEX mode, the upload does fall within range of the
> download.
>
>
>
> It is isolated to this sector only.  Have you seen this problem before?
>
>
>
> *Tyson Burris, President*
> *Internet Communications Inc.*
> *739 Commerce Dr.*
> *Franklin, IN 46131*
>
> *317-738-0320 <317-738-0320> Daytime #*
> *317-412-1540 <317-412-1540> Cell/Direct #*
> *Online: **www.surfici.net* 
>
>
>
> [image: ICI]
>
> *What can ICI do for you?*
>
>
> *Broadband Wireless - PtP/PtMP Solutions - WiMax - Mesh Wifi/Hotzones - IP
> Security - Fiber - Tower - Infrastructure.*
>
> *CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail is intended for the*
> *addressee shown. It contains information that is*
> *confidential and protected from disclosure. Any review,*
> *dissemination or use of this transmission or its contents by*
> *unauthorized organizations or individuals is strictly*
> *prohibited.*
>
>
>

[AFMUG] ePMP Upload 1-2Mbps

[Tyson Burris @ Internet Communications Inc]

Good morning geeks,

 

I have a sector with an ePMP running GPS, 75/25 ratio, FW 2.6.1

Recently the upload has gone to crap.  The RX/TX on the remote links look
great.

Different RFs have been tested.

 

The downloads are consistent.  The upload never exceeds 1-2Mbps.  

This is on 20Mhz channel.  Going to 40Mhz channel produces the same exact
result.

If I convert to FLEX mode, the upload does fall within range of the
download.  

 

It is isolated to this sector only.  Have you seen this problem before?

 

Tyson Burris, President 
Internet Communications Inc. 
739 Commerce Dr. 
Franklin, IN 46131 
  
317-738-0320 Daytime # 
317-412-1540 Cell/Direct # 
Online: www.surfici.net 

 



What can ICI do for you? 


Broadband Wireless - PtP/PtMP Solutions - WiMax - Mesh Wifi/Hotzones - IP
Security - Fiber - Tower - Infrastructure. 
  
CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail is intended for the 
addressee shown. It contains information that is 
confidential and protected from disclosure. Any review, 
dissemination or use of this transmission or its contents by 
unauthorized organizations or individuals is strictly 
prohibited. 

 

Re: [AFMUG] Google Fiber information

[Seth Mattinen]

On 8/26/16 6:05 PM, CBB - Jay Fuller wrote:


i thought it was a rooter?



Only in Canada.