Re: [AFMUG] tying down wires

[Steve Jones]

our partner retail shop got in with office depot for a period, we had
access to super dirt cheap command strip stuff. I loved it here at home,
like jesus spat his child juice upon my walls to absolve me of all nail
holes. but in outdoor enclosures, it jut falls off like a flaccid member of
an unaccompanied church. Mileage varies on everything. Zip ties are awful,
in enclosure I buy the 3/4 inch velcro in the 30 foot rolls, I cut it in
half, it makes me happy for the first ten minutes, then I close the box and
know its going to look like a hookers pretty bits next time I open it,  we
are never happy. Unless youre one of those guys with both the time and the
patience for wire tying with that string, I have seen so much sexiness in
that. I really want the boss to hire that guy and have Jaime guide him,
because at the end of the day my enclosures look like an atom bomb bred
with a MOAB and its child has the runs.

On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 6:27 PM, Jaime Solorza 
wrote:

> We use them in our enclosures for yearshold up well
>
> Jaime Solorza
>
> On Feb 10, 2018 4:53 PM, "Jeremy"  wrote:
>
>> I tried those once, and the adhesive failed in the Summer when the box
>> got hot.  Granted, this was for another company before we were using fans.
>> Have any of you been using them long-term?  How do they hold up over the
>> years?
>>
>> On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 10:26 AM, David Coudron <
>> david.coud...@advantenon.com> wrote:
>>
>>> We have started using these zip tie saddles as well inside our
>>> cabinets.   What we like about them besides being cheap (10 cents apiece)
>>> is that they have adhesive on the back for quick connection to
>>> metal/plastic and a screw hole for attaching to more porous material.
>>> Additionally you can run two zip ties through every one, which lets you
>>> double layer the wires over the zip tie saddle.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> David Coudron
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Jaime Solorza
>>> *Sent:* Friday, February 9, 2018 9:42 PM
>>> *To:* Animal Farm 
>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] tying down wires
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> We use these sometimes in enclosures to hold wires tied down with wire
>>> ties especially inside our cable management systems.   If required we also
>>> screw them into back panels. https://www.google.com/search?
>>> q=panduit+sgabm25-at-c0+cable+tie+mounting+pad,4-way,black,p
>>> k100=shop=seller:100446302,rt:4,pgb:1,cid:2660621310
>>> 06318401,pid:7742393566737078290,oid:2629468581556939237,lsf
>>> qd:0=en-US=Iml-WuScE4LWtQXogoKgDA=gclid:CjwKCAiAq
>>> vXTBRBuEiwAE54dcGGbbJ9XpYXx-eZnn5_gDij9Nb3iHaSoshDcm2nnKTH
>>> Jj7zJbApsFhoCzecQAvD_BwE
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Feb 9, 2018 8:17 PM, "Adam Moffett"  wrote:
>>>
>>> That's robbery
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -- Original Message --
>>>
>>> From: "Steve Jones" 
>>>
>>> To: af@afmug.com
>>>
>>> Sent: 2/9/2018 8:59:11 PM
>>>
>>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] tying down wires
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> it works but they run 40 some bucks around here
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 6:47 PM, Jon Langeler 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I’ve been looking for a solution like this. Neat idea. One of our guys
>>> is basically trying to 3d print something like this
>>>
>>> Jon Langeler
>>>
>>> Michwave Technologies, Inc.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Feb 9, 2018, at 6:10 PM,   wrote:
>>>
>>> I wonder if I put one of these in the box:
>>>
>>> https://www.homedepot.com/p/Eaton-14-Terminal-Ground-Bar-Kit
>>> -GBK14CS/100175627
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> with the screws removed, if that would be a suitable thing to tie off
>>> cables coming into the box to?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> (not sure the image will come through)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>

Re: [AFMUG] 24 GHz vs 11 GHz

[Steve Jones]

...in utah

On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 12:33 AM, Steve Jones 
wrote:

> Seriously, these questions, please, please, please! State your rain
> region. Here,. id like to punch anybody in the eye who lies to you and
> tells you 24 GHZ is a good idea over 1.2 miles ( I dont care the KM Im
> mercan) but some guy in a desert might tell you its an awesome idea at 6
> miles, I dont care about him here, he doesnt care about me there. If you
> get into the higher frequencies yout rain zone, it really matters.
> but when it works, it works, and in 24 GHZ right now, theres nothing on th
> market that compares to AF, even if you skimp on the HD. Literally
> nothing Ive looked. you can pay 10k with the other actual carrier
> classes for 200mb... just not worth it, if 24 works to go anywhere else.
> You have to remember, UBNT 24ghz (airfiber) is NOT a UBNT product, its a
> Motorola product. Just before Motorola shit canned, UBNT bought \theirguys.
>
> 11ghz, totally different beast. you OWN the channel, and you can be a dick
> about it. Like central Illinois wanting to put up a link. If your in
> central Indiana, you can contest... This is fact, we just had to trade off
> 10db to get a link because it was contested 100 miles away, because our max
> EIRP could impact that link during its lowest rain fade hundreds of miles
> away. Im not complaining, if I had their GIS and hired guns, I would have
> done it too.
>
> however, I literally can come in across the street on your 24 ghz link,
> put it on the same channel as you and just pump out on maximum power all
> day. You know what you can do? you can go to Starbucks, get yourelf a nice
> double frappe vanilla bean, half caf, choco humpagoat with double froth,
> and take it to your shop, set it in the middle of your chair and sit on it
> while humming Mary had a little lamb. Thats it, thats the end of your
> recourse.
>
> And dont ever talk about Mimosa again. Its garbage. If I was going to put
> another link up outside of what I can do again, I wouldnt touch Mimosa, not
> if the Mimosa CEO sent their grandmother to service me and thirteen of my
> friends. The only reason to put Mimosa up beyond 3 miles is to lawfully
> squat some spectrum on the cheap.
>
> FWIW
>
> Harshish words, I know, but this is all stuff I learned the hard way, Im
> only a decade into this nonsense, I wish some prick had shown up and
> smacked me like a wife who didnt have the pot pies in the oven on time long
> before I made some bad decisions, You have to treat all your gear like a
> woman. Know where you are and what her scope is in that area. Dont go full
> bukakee on a housewife.
>
>
>
> On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 11:13 PM, Bill Prince  wrote:
>
>> Our experience has been we get more throughput and more reliability from
>> the AF11 than the B11. The B11s always seemed to be choking on high
>> throughput. We gave up on them, and the AF11s are easier to license in
>> congested areas anyway.
>>
>>
>> bp
>> 
>>
>>
>> On 2/10/2018 5:12 PM, Mathew Howard wrote:
>>
>> Yes, the AF11 can do more throughput on the same spectrum compared to the
>> B11, but the B11 can use more spectrum (a lot more, granted), so it can do
>> more throughput than the AF11 can. You can get close to a full gig in one
>> direction with the B11 (assuming you can license enough spectrum), but you
>> can only get around 650Mbps in one direction with the AF11 (it's a real
>> full duplex radio though, so aggregate isn't that much different if you
>> need a 50/50 split).
>>
>> On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 6:56 PM, Bill Prince  wrote:
>>
>>> What others have said about distance. Short (up to 3 miles or so) 24
>>> GHz. Medium (up to 8-9 miles) 18 GHz. Long (up to 20 miles) 11 GHz. Longest
>>> 6 GHz.
>>>
>>> I disagree with the B11 versus AF11. The AF11 will provide more
>>> throughput on less spectrum. Probably less expensive too.
>>>
>>>
>>> bp
>>> 
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2/10/2018 2:57 PM, David Coudron wrote:
>>>
>>> I know this topic has come up before, but thought I would throw it out
>>> again to hear additional thoughts as products continue to evolve.�� We
>>> have been doing primarily 5 GHz backhaul using Mimosa products for the last
>>> couple of years.�� Their frequency reuse has really helped us, but we
>>> are starting to see more locations that have lots of noise.�� We�d
>>> like to make the jump to higher frequencies and are looking at 11 GHz and
>>> 24 GHz for that.�� The links we need are fairly short, 6-10 miles max,
>>> which pushes the limits of the 24 GHz solutions, but with a very clean line
>>> of site we think we are in range for the links we are looking at as far as
>>> the design tools tell us.�� For 11 GHz, we would likely stay with the
>>> Mimosa product line, we know it pretty well and have all the management
>>> tools in place for it.�� For 24 GHz we�d likely go with the 

Re: [AFMUG] 24 GHz vs 11 GHz

[Steve Jones]

Seriously, these questions, please, please, please! State your rain region.
Here,. id like to punch anybody in the eye who lies to you and tells you 24
GHZ is a good idea over 1.2 miles ( I dont care the KM Im mercan) but some
guy in a desert might tell you its an awesome idea at 6 miles, I dont care
about him here, he doesnt care about me there. If you get into the higher
frequencies yout rain zone, it really matters.
but when it works, it works, and in 24 GHZ right now, theres nothing on th
market that compares to AF, even if you skimp on the HD. Literally
nothing Ive looked. you can pay 10k with the other actual carrier
classes for 200mb... just not worth it, if 24 works to go anywhere else.
You have to remember, UBNT 24ghz (airfiber) is NOT a UBNT product, its a
Motorola product. Just before Motorola shit canned, UBNT bought \theirguys.

11ghz, totally different beast. you OWN the channel, and you can be a dick
about it. Like central Illinois wanting to put up a link. If your in
central Indiana, you can contest... This is fact, we just had to trade off
10db to get a link because it was contested 100 miles away, because our max
EIRP could impact that link during its lowest rain fade hundreds of miles
away. Im not complaining, if I had their GIS and hired guns, I would have
done it too.

however, I literally can come in across the street on your 24 ghz link, put
it on the same channel as you and just pump out on maximum power all day.
You know what you can do? you can go to Starbucks, get yourelf a nice
double frappe vanilla bean, half caf, choco humpagoat with double froth,
and take it to your shop, set it in the middle of your chair and sit on it
while humming Mary had a little lamb. Thats it, thats the end of your
recourse.

And dont ever talk about Mimosa again. Its garbage. If I was going to put
another link up outside of what I can do again, I wouldnt touch Mimosa, not
if the Mimosa CEO sent their grandmother to service me and thirteen of my
friends. The only reason to put Mimosa up beyond 3 miles is to lawfully
squat some spectrum on the cheap.

FWIW

Harshish words, I know, but this is all stuff I learned the hard way, Im
only a decade into this nonsense, I wish some prick had shown up and
smacked me like a wife who didnt have the pot pies in the oven on time long
before I made some bad decisions, You have to treat all your gear like a
woman. Know where you are and what her scope is in that area. Dont go full
bukakee on a housewife.



On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 11:13 PM, Bill Prince  wrote:

> Our experience has been we get more throughput and more reliability from
> the AF11 than the B11. The B11s always seemed to be choking on high
> throughput. We gave up on them, and the AF11s are easier to license in
> congested areas anyway.
>
>
> bp
> 
>
>
> On 2/10/2018 5:12 PM, Mathew Howard wrote:
>
> Yes, the AF11 can do more throughput on the same spectrum compared to the
> B11, but the B11 can use more spectrum (a lot more, granted), so it can do
> more throughput than the AF11 can. You can get close to a full gig in one
> direction with the B11 (assuming you can license enough spectrum), but you
> can only get around 650Mbps in one direction with the AF11 (it's a real
> full duplex radio though, so aggregate isn't that much different if you
> need a 50/50 split).
>
> On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 6:56 PM, Bill Prince  wrote:
>
>> What others have said about distance. Short (up to 3 miles or so) 24 GHz.
>> Medium (up to 8-9 miles) 18 GHz. Long (up to 20 miles) 11 GHz. Longest 6
>> GHz.
>>
>> I disagree with the B11 versus AF11. The AF11 will provide more
>> throughput on less spectrum. Probably less expensive too.
>>
>>
>> bp
>> 
>>
>>
>> On 2/10/2018 2:57 PM, David Coudron wrote:
>>
>> I know this topic has come up before, but thought I would throw it out
>> again to hear additional thoughts as products continue to evolve.�� We
>> have been doing primarily 5 GHz backhaul using Mimosa products for the last
>> couple of years.�� Their frequency reuse has really helped us, but we
>> are starting to see more locations that have lots of noise.�� We�d
>> like to make the jump to higher frequencies and are looking at 11 GHz and
>> 24 GHz for that.�� The links we need are fairly short, 6-10 miles max,
>> which pushes the limits of the 24 GHz solutions, but with a very clean line
>> of site we think we are in range for the links we are looking at as far as
>> the design tools tell us.�� For 11 GHz, we would likely stay with the
>> Mimosa product line, we know it pretty well and have all the management
>> tools in place for it.�� For 24 GHz we�d likely go with the Ubiquiti
>> AF 24 or AF 24 HD.�� We have worked with Ubiquiti stuff here and there,
>> and just don�t have much familiarity with any other options outside of
>> AirFiber.� Here is where we see the Pros and Cons of the 

Re: [AFMUG] Municameras

[Steve Jones]

vendor OT responses appreciated

On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 11:56 PM, Steve Jones 
wrote:

> Anyone here ever been involved in citywide surveillance?
> A starting point being 4x intersection cameras.
> 1984 being a good jump off point.
>
>  Whats kind of system would cover roughly 8.5 square miles? (relatively
> minute in city size)
> This is multiple thousands of cameras.
> Pretty sure there isnt a ubnt unifi solution of that scale.
> Anybody dealt with that? Assuming that the overall system would catch an
> in morion plate and have a tax payer freindly masking option?
>
>

[AFMUG] Municameras

[Steve Jones]

Anyone here ever been involved in citywide surveillance?
A starting point being 4x intersection cameras.
1984 being a good jump off point.

 Whats kind of system would cover roughly 8.5 square miles? (relatively
minute in city size)
This is multiple thousands of cameras.
Pretty sure there isnt a ubnt unifi solution of that scale.
Anybody dealt with that? Assuming that the overall system would catch an in
morion plate and have a tax payer freindly masking option?

Re: [AFMUG] 24 GHz vs 11 GHz

[Bill Prince]

Our experience has been we get more throughput and more reliability from 
the AF11 than the B11. The B11s always seemed to be choking on high 
throughput. We gave up on them, and the AF11s are easier to license in 
congested areas anyway.



bp


On 2/10/2018 5:12 PM, Mathew Howard wrote:
Yes, the AF11 can do more throughput on the same spectrum compared to 
the B11, but the B11 can use more spectrum (a lot more, granted), so 
it can do more throughput than the AF11 can. You can get close to a 
full gig in one direction with the B11 (assuming you can license 
enough spectrum), but you can only get around 650Mbps in one direction 
with the AF11 (it's a real full duplex radio though, so aggregate 
isn't that much different if you need a 50/50 split).


On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 6:56 PM, Bill Prince > wrote:


What others have said about distance. Short (up to 3 miles or so)
24 GHz. Medium (up to 8-9 miles) 18 GHz. Long (up to 20 miles) 11
GHz. Longest 6 GHz.

I disagree with the B11 versus AF11. The AF11 will provide more
throughput on less spectrum. Probably less expensive too.


bp


On 2/10/2018 2:57 PM, David Coudron wrote:


I know this topic has come up before, but thought I would throw
it out again to hear additional thoughts as products continue to
evolve.�� We have been doing primarily 5 GHz backhaul using
Mimosa products for the last couple of years.�� Their
frequency reuse has really helped us, but we are starting to see
more locations that have lots of noise.�� We�d like to make
the jump to higher frequencies and are looking at 11 GHz and 24
GHz for that.�� The links we need are fairly short, 6-10
miles max, which pushes the limits of the 24 GHz solutions, but
with a very clean line of site we think we are in range for the
links we are looking at as far as the design tools tell us.��
For 11 GHz, we would likely stay with the Mimosa product line, we
know it pretty well and have all the management tools in place
for it.�� For 24 GHz we�d likely go with the Ubiquiti AF 24
or AF 24 HD.�� We have worked with Ubiquiti stuff here and
there, and just don�t have much familiarity with any other
options outside of AirFiber.� Here is where we see the Pros and
Cons of the two options:

�

Mimosa 11 GHz Pros:

 1. Licensed, should be clean spectrum for the full term of the
license and require less babysitting for interference
 2. Should support longer links, but that isn�t a big
consideration for us as it looks like everything we will need
is under the limits of the HD for sure and likely the AF 24
as well
 3. Little less susceptible to rain fade

�

Cons:

 1. Have to mess around with the license and there is a cost
associated with it
 2. Have to buy the dish separately, and know which to use before
applying for the license
 3. Not quite as much throughput (when compared to the AF 24 HD)
 4. More expensive that the AF 24 (but likely a little less than
the HD)

�

�

Ubiquiti AF 24 Pros:

 1. All in one unit, easy to figure out what to have on hand for
all links
 2. No messing around with licenses, making it much quicker to deploy
 3. Higher throughput on the HD

�

Cons:

 1. Unlicensed.� Might fight other noise out there, and even
quiet links now might have noise later
 2. Not as familiar with this tool set as we are with Mimosa,
although this isn�t a big consideration as we have worked
with lots of Ubiquiti products
 3. Cost of HD is pretty high for an unlicensed link

�

Here are some questions we are hoping for help with:

 1. How much room in the unlicensed band is there to move
channels if you see other noise out there?�� We have been
looking but are finding it tough to figure out if we run wide
channels, and see noise, will we be able to move to other
channels.
 2. Is it reasonable to think you can push 1.2 aggregate IP
traffic across any of the three options B11, AF24 or
AF24HD?�� Seems like a well planned link with great line
of site at 6 miles should be able to, but looking for some
real world experience.
 3. Any oddball items we should take into consideration other
than the ones already mentioned here? Or are we missing some
obvious questions?

�

Thanks,

�

David Coudron

�

Re: [AFMUG] 24 GHz vs 11 GHz

[Mathew Howard]

Yes, the AF11 can do more throughput on the same spectrum compared to the
B11, but the B11 can use more spectrum (a lot more, granted), so it can do
more throughput than the AF11 can. You can get close to a full gig in one
direction with the B11 (assuming you can license enough spectrum), but you
can only get around 650Mbps in one direction with the AF11 (it's a real
full duplex radio though, so aggregate isn't that much different if you
need a 50/50 split).

On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 6:56 PM, Bill Prince  wrote:

> What others have said about distance. Short (up to 3 miles or so) 24 GHz.
> Medium (up to 8-9 miles) 18 GHz. Long (up to 20 miles) 11 GHz. Longest 6
> GHz.
>
> I disagree with the B11 versus AF11. The AF11 will provide more throughput
> on less spectrum. Probably less expensive too.
>
>
> bp
> 
>
>
> On 2/10/2018 2:57 PM, David Coudron wrote:
>
> I know this topic has come up before, but thought I would throw it out
> again to hear additional thoughts as products continue to evolve.�� We
> have been doing primarily 5 GHz backhaul using Mimosa products for the last
> couple of years.�� Their frequency reuse has really helped us, but we
> are starting to see more locations that have lots of noise.�� We�d
> like to make the jump to higher frequencies and are looking at 11 GHz and
> 24 GHz for that.�� The links we need are fairly short, 6-10 miles max,
> which pushes the limits of the 24 GHz solutions, but with a very clean line
> of site we think we are in range for the links we are looking at as far as
> the design tools tell us.�� For 11 GHz, we would likely stay with the
> Mimosa product line, we know it pretty well and have all the management
> tools in place for it.�� For 24 GHz we�d likely go with the Ubiquiti
> AF 24 or AF 24 HD.�� We have worked with Ubiquiti stuff here and there,
> and just don�t have much familiarity with any other options outside of
> AirFiber.� Here is where we see the Pros and Cons of the two options:
>
> �
>
> Mimosa 11 GHz Pros:
>
>1. Licensed, should be clean spectrum for the full term of the license
>and require less babysitting for interference
>2. Should support longer links, but that isn�t a big consideration
>for us as it looks like everything we will need is under the limits of the
>HD for sure and likely the AF 24 as well
>3. Little less susceptible to rain fade
>
> �
>
> Cons:
>
>1. Have to mess around with the license and there is a cost associated
>with it
>2. Have to buy the dish separately, and know which to use before
>applying for the license
>3. Not quite as much throughput (when compared to the AF 24 HD)
>4. More expensive that the AF 24 (but likely a little less than the HD)
>
> �
>
> �
>
> Ubiquiti AF 24 Pros:
>
>1. All in one unit, easy to figure out what to have on hand for all
>links
>2. No messing around with licenses, making it much quicker to deploy
>3. Higher throughput on the HD
>
> �
>
> Cons:
>
>1. Unlicensed.� Might fight other noise out there, and even quiet
>links now might have noise later
>2. Not as familiar with this tool set as we are with Mimosa, although
>this isn�t a big consideration as we have worked with lots of Ubiquiti
>products
>3. Cost of HD is pretty high for an unlicensed link
>
> �
>
> Here are some questions we are hoping for help with:
>
>1. How much room in the unlicensed band is there to move channels if
>you see other noise out there?�� We have been looking but are finding
>it tough to figure out if we run wide channels, and see noise, will we be
>able to move to other channels.
>2. Is it reasonable to think you can push 1.2 aggregate IP traffic
>across any of the three options B11, AF24 or AF24HD?�� Seems like a
>well planned link with great line of site at 6 miles should be able to, but
>looking for some real world experience.
>3. Any oddball items we should take into consideration other than the
>ones already mentioned here? Or are we missing some obvious questions?
>
> �
>
> Thanks,
>
> �
>
> David Coudron
>
> �
>
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] 24 GHz vs 11 GHz

[Mathew Howard]

Yeah... a 6 mile 24ghz link would probably work, but it's going to be
dropping pretty much every time it rains... and I'd be kind of surprised if
you could even get airfiber 24s to link at 10 miles. Interference isn't
really something you typically have to worry about on 24ghz, even though
it's unlicensed, but even if will work at those distances, you aren't going
to be happy with it in the long run.

You can get 1.2Gbps aggregate out of any of those radios, depending on the
trafiic split... AF24 will only do a bit over 700Mbps each direction, but
it is full duplex, so it can do about 1.5Gbps aggregate, AF24HD can
theoretically do 1Gbps full duplex for 2Gbps aggregate (although I suspect
you wouldn't get full modulation at 6 miles), and the B11 is probably
capable of right around 1.2Gbps aggregate (maybe even a bit more)... unlike
the others, it's a half duplex radio, but it can get pretty close to 1Gbps
in one direction (but not both directions at once).

On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 6:13 PM, Faisal Imtiaz 
wrote:

> 11Ghz  6-10 miles
> 24GZ   good for 1-2miles in high rain fade areas,  longer distance if you
> have backup and don't care about rain fade.
>
> >>>For 11 GHz, we would likely stay with the Mimosa product line 
> Not a bad decision, depending on channel availability don't chalk off the
> AF11x...smaller channels AF11x pushes more bw.
>
> >>For 24 GHz we’d likely go with the Ubiquiti AF 24 or AF 24 HD.
> Cannot go wrong with these but  . if you like the orange
> logo Wait for it... Wait for it  not too far out .. !.;)
>
> Regards
>
> Faisal Imtiaz
> Snappy Internet & Telecom
> http://www.snappytelecom.net
>
> Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232 <(305)%20663-5518>
>
> Help-desk: (305)663-5518 <(305)%20663-5518> Option 2 or Email:
> supp...@snappytelecom.net
>
> --
>
> *From: *"David Coudron" 
> *To: *af@afmug.com
> *Sent: *Saturday, February 10, 2018 5:57:40 PM
>
> *Subject: *[AFMUG] 24 GHz vs 11 GHz
>
> I know this topic has come up before, but thought I would throw it out
> again to hear additional thoughts as products continue to evolve.   We have
> been doing primarily 5 GHz backhaul using Mimosa products for the last
> couple of years.   Their frequency reuse has really helped us, but we are
> starting to see more locations that have lots of noise.   We’d like to make
> the jump to higher frequencies and are looking at 11 GHz and 24 GHz for
> that.   The links we need are fairly short, 6-10 miles max, which pushes
> the limits of the 24 GHz solutions, but with a very clean line of site we
> think we are in range for the links we are looking at as far as the design
> tools tell us.   For 11 GHz, we would likely stay with the Mimosa product
> line, we know it pretty well and have all the management tools in place for
> it.   For 24 GHz we’d likely go with the Ubiquiti AF 24 or AF 24 HD.   We
> have worked with Ubiquiti stuff here and there, and just don’t have much
> familiarity with any other options outside of AirFiber.  Here is where we
> see the Pros and Cons of the two options:
>
>
>
> Mimosa 11 GHz Pros:
>
>1. Licensed, should be clean spectrum for the full term of the license
>and require less babysitting for interference
>2. Should support longer links, but that isn’t a big consideration for
>us as it looks like everything we will need is under the limits of the HD
>for sure and likely the AF 24 as well
>3. Little less susceptible to rain fade
>
>
>
> Cons:
>
>1. Have to mess around with the license and there is a cost associated
>with it
>2. Have to buy the dish separately, and know which to use before
>applying for the license
>3. Not quite as much throughput (when compared to the AF 24 HD)
>4. More expensive that the AF 24 (but likely a little less than the HD)
>
>
>
>
>
> Ubiquiti AF 24 Pros:
>
>1. All in one unit, easy to figure out what to have on hand for all
>links
>2. No messing around with licenses, making it much quicker to deploy
>3. Higher throughput on the HD
>
>
>
> Cons:
>
>1. Unlicensed.  Might fight other noise out there, and even quiet
>links now might have noise later
>2. Not as familiar with this tool set as we are with Mimosa, although
>this isn’t a big consideration as we have worked with lots of Ubiquiti
>products
>3. Cost of HD is pretty high for an unlicensed link
>
>
>
> Here are some questions we are hoping for help with:
>
>1. How much room in the unlicensed band is there to move channels if
>you see other noise out there?   We have been looking but are finding it
>tough to figure out if we run wide channels, and see noise, will we be able
>to move to other channels.
>2. Is it reasonable to think you can push 1.2 aggregate IP traffic
>across any of the three options B11, AF24 or AF24HD?   Seems like a well
>planned link with great 

Re: [AFMUG] 24 GHz vs 11 GHz

[Bill Prince]

What others have said about distance. Short (up to 3 miles or so) 24 
GHz. Medium (up to 8-9 miles) 18 GHz. Long (up to 20 miles) 11 GHz. 
Longest 6 GHz.


I disagree with the B11 versus AF11. The AF11 will provide more 
throughput on less spectrum. Probably less expensive too.



bp


On 2/10/2018 2:57 PM, David Coudron wrote:


I know this topic has come up before, but thought I would throw it out 
again to hear additional thoughts as products continue to evolve.�� We 
have been doing primarily 5 GHz backhaul using Mimosa products for the 
last couple of years.�� Their frequency reuse has really helped us, 
but we are starting to see more locations that have lots of noise. 
We�d like to make the jump to higher frequencies and are looking at 11 
GHz and 24 GHz for that.�� The links we need are fairly short, 6-10 
miles max, which pushes the limits of the 24 GHz solutions, but with a 
very clean line of site we think we are in range for the links we are 
looking at as far as the design tools tell us.�� For 11 GHz, we would 
likely stay with the Mimosa product line, we know it pretty well and 
have all the management tools in place for it.�� For 24 GHz we�d 
likely go with the Ubiquiti AF 24 or AF 24 HD.�� We have worked with 
Ubiquiti stuff here and there, and just don�t have much familiarity 
with any other options outside of AirFiber.� Here is where we see the 
Pros and Cons of the two options:


Mimosa 11 GHz Pros:

 1. Licensed, should be clean spectrum for the full term of the
license and require less babysitting for interference
 2. Should support longer links, but that isn�t a big consideration
for us as it looks like everything we will need is under the
limits of the HD for sure and likely the AF 24 as well
 3. Little less susceptible to rain fade

Cons:

 1. Have to mess around with the license and there is a cost
associated with it
 2. Have to buy the dish separately, and know which to use before
applying for the license
 3. Not quite as much throughput (when compared to the AF 24 HD)
 4. More expensive that the AF 24 (but likely a little less than the HD)

Ubiquiti AF 24 Pros:

 1. All in one unit, easy to figure out what to have on hand for all links
 2. No messing around with licenses, making it much quicker to deploy
 3. Higher throughput on the HD

Cons:

 1. Unlicensed. Might fight other noise out there, and even quiet
links now might have noise later
 2. Not as familiar with this tool set as we are with Mimosa, although
this isn�t a big consideration as we have worked with lots of
Ubiquiti products
 3. Cost of HD is pretty high for an unlicensed link

Here are some questions we are hoping for help with:

 1. How much room in the unlicensed band is there to move channels if
you see other noise out there?�� We have been looking but are
finding it tough to figure out if we run wide channels, and see
noise, will we be able to move to other channels.
 2. Is it reasonable to think you can push 1.2 aggregate IP traffic
across any of the three options B11, AF24 or AF24HD?�� Seems like
a well planned link with great line of site at 6 miles should be
able to, but looking for some real world experience.
 3. Any oddball items we should take into consideration other than the
ones already mentioned here? Or are we missing some obvious questions?

Thanks,

David Coudron

Re: [AFMUG] tying down wires

[Jaime Solorza]

We use them in our enclosures for yearshold up well

Jaime Solorza

On Feb 10, 2018 4:53 PM, "Jeremy"  wrote:

> I tried those once, and the adhesive failed in the Summer when the box got
> hot.  Granted, this was for another company before we were using fans.
> Have any of you been using them long-term?  How do they hold up over the
> years?
>
> On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 10:26 AM, David Coudron <
> david.coud...@advantenon.com> wrote:
>
>> We have started using these zip tie saddles as well inside our
>> cabinets.   What we like about them besides being cheap (10 cents apiece)
>> is that they have adhesive on the back for quick connection to
>> metal/plastic and a screw hole for attaching to more porous material.
>> Additionally you can run two zip ties through every one, which lets you
>> double layer the wires over the zip tie saddle.
>>
>>
>>
>> David Coudron
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Jaime Solorza
>> *Sent:* Friday, February 9, 2018 9:42 PM
>> *To:* Animal Farm 
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] tying down wires
>>
>>
>>
>> We use these sometimes in enclosures to hold wires tied down with wire
>> ties especially inside our cable management systems.   If required we also
>> screw them into back panels. https://www.google.com/search?
>> q=panduit+sgabm25-at-c0+cable+tie+mounting+pad,4-way,black,p
>> k100=shop=seller:100446302,rt:4,pgb:1,cid:2660621310
>> 06318401,pid:7742393566737078290,oid:2629468581556939237,
>> lsfqd:0=en-US=Iml-WuScE4LWtQXogoKgDA=gclid:CjwKCA
>> iAqvXTBRBuEiwAE54dcGGbbJ9XpYXx-eZnn5_gDij9Nb3iHaSoshDcm2nnKT
>> HJj7zJbApsFhoCzecQAvD_BwE
>>
>>
>>
>> On Feb 9, 2018 8:17 PM, "Adam Moffett"  wrote:
>>
>> That's robbery
>>
>>
>>
>> -- Original Message --
>>
>> From: "Steve Jones" 
>>
>> To: af@afmug.com
>>
>> Sent: 2/9/2018 8:59:11 PM
>>
>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] tying down wires
>>
>>
>>
>> it works but they run 40 some bucks around here
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 6:47 PM, Jon Langeler 
>> wrote:
>>
>> I’ve been looking for a solution like this. Neat idea. One of our guys is
>> basically trying to 3d print something like this
>>
>> Jon Langeler
>>
>> Michwave Technologies, Inc.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Feb 9, 2018, at 6:10 PM,   wrote:
>>
>> I wonder if I put one of these in the box:
>>
>> https://www.homedepot.com/p/Eaton-14-Terminal-Ground-Bar-Kit
>> -GBK14CS/100175627
>>
>>
>>
>> with the screws removed, if that would be a suitable thing to tie off
>> cables coming into the box to?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> (not sure the image will come through)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>

Re: [AFMUG] 24 GHz vs 11 GHz

[Faisal Imtiaz]

11Ghz  6-10 miles 
24GZ good for 1-2miles in high rain fade areas, longer distance if you have 
backup and don't care about rain fade. 

>>>For 11 GHz, we would likely stay with the Mimosa product line  
Not a bad decision, depending on channel availability don't chalk off the 
AF11x...smaller channels AF11x pushes more bw. 

>>For 24 GHz we’d likely go with the Ubiquiti AF 24 or AF 24 HD. 
Cannot go wrong with these but . if you like the orange logo 
Wait for it... Wait for it  not too far out .. !.;) 

Regards 

Faisal Imtiaz 
Snappy Internet & Telecom 
http://www.snappytelecom.net 

Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232 

Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: supp...@snappytelecom.net 

> From: "David Coudron" 
> To: af@afmug.com
> Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2018 5:57:40 PM
> Subject: [AFMUG] 24 GHz vs 11 GHz

> I know this topic has come up before, but thought I would throw it out again 
> to
> hear additional thoughts as products continue to evolve. We have been doing
> primarily 5 GHz backhaul using Mimosa products for the last couple of years.
> Their frequency reuse has really helped us, but we are starting to see more
> locations that have lots of noise. We’d like to make the jump to higher
> frequencies and are looking at 11 GHz and 24 GHz for that. The links we need
> are fairly short, 6-10 miles max, which pushes the limits of the 24 GHz
> solutions, but with a very clean line of site we think we are in range for the
> links we are looking at as far as the design tools tell us. For 11 GHz, we
> would likely stay with the Mimosa product line, we know it pretty well and 
> have
> all the management tools in place for it. For 24 GHz we’d likely go with the
> Ubiquiti AF 24 or AF 24 HD. We have worked with Ubiquiti stuff here and there,
> and just don’t have much familiarity with any other options outside of
> AirFiber. Here is where we see the Pros and Cons of the two options:

> Mimosa 11 GHz Pros:

>1. Licensed, should be clean spectrum for the full term of the license and
> require less babysitting for interference
>2. Should support longer links, but that isn’t a big consideration for us 
> as it
>looks like everything we will need is under the limits of the HD for sure 
> and
> likely the AF 24 as well
> 3. Little less susceptible to rain fade

> Cons:

> 1. Have to mess around with the license and there is a cost associated 
> with it
>2. Have to buy the dish separately, and know which to use before applying 
> for
> the license
> 3. Not quite as much throughput (when compared to the AF 24 HD)
> 4. More expensive that the AF 24 (but likely a little less than the HD)

> Ubiquiti AF 24 Pros:

> 1. All in one unit, easy to figure out what to have on hand for all links
> 2. No messing around with licenses, making it much quicker to deploy
> 3. Higher throughput on the HD

> Cons:

>1. Unlicensed. Might fight other noise out there, and even quiet links now 
> might
> have noise later
>2. Not as familiar with this tool set as we are with Mimosa, although this 
> isn’t
> a big consideration as we have worked with lots of Ubiquiti products
> 3. Cost of HD is pretty high for an unlicensed link

> Here are some questions we are hoping for help with:

>1. How much room in the unlicensed band is there to move channels if you 
> see
>other noise out there? We have been looking but are finding it tough to 
> figure
>out if we run wide channels, and see noise, will we be able to move to 
> other
> channels.
>2. Is it reasonable to think you can push 1.2 aggregate IP traffic across 
> any of
>the three options B11, AF24 or AF24HD? Seems like a well planned link with
>great line of site at 6 miles should be able to, but looking for some real
> world experience.
>3. Any oddball items we should take into consideration other than the ones
> already mentioned here? Or are we missing some obvious questions?

> Thanks,

> David Coudron

Re: [AFMUG] 24 GHz vs 11 GHz

[Chuck McCown]

I have always been scared to use them (24 Ghz) beyond 2 miles.

I want to know (and perhaps Liz or Tim are still lurking here), is there any 
way to re-use your 11 GHz channels in your local area?
The big problem for me is the cost of the license.  
UBNT or Mimosa ought to figure out a way to package the radio, antenna and 
license for one screaming good deal.  

Just tell them the end points and a turn-key package shows up ready and legal 
to install.  

I remember years ago, a company I worked for had nationwide licenses for almost 
all the microwave bands.
It was supposedly for emergency restoration use etc, and they were all narrow 
channels, but I wonder if such a beast still exists.

If you could re-use your 11 GHz channels within your original zone of 
protection it would really save some money.  

From: Josh Reynolds 
Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2018 4:27 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] 24 GHz vs 11 GHz

We had a lot of 4 mile+ links on AF24's that worked perfectly in ALASKA on the 
coast.

Some places have more rain/hr than others.

On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 5:11 PM, Adair Winter  
wrote:

  AF24 is only going to be 5 9's reliable to about 1-2 miles depending on your 
rain zone. 
  for 2-4 miles you could use 23Ghz (way more EIRP than 24Ghz)
  4-8 miles 18Ghz
  8-20 miles 11 Ghz
  and anything longer than that 6Ghz. unless you can mount really big dishes 
for 11.


  On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 5:05 PM, Gino A. Villarini  wrote:

For 6-10 miles 24 ghz its way out of the question.  Stick to 11 ghz.  

From: Af  on behalf of David Coudron 

Reply-To: "af@afmug.com" 
Date: Saturday, February 10, 2018 at 6:57 PM
To: "af@afmug.com" 
Subject: [AFMUG] 24 GHz vs 11 GHz


I know this topic has come up before, but thought I would throw it out 
again to hear additional thoughts as products continue to evolve.   We have 
been doing primarily 5 GHz backhaul using Mimosa products for the last couple 
of years.   Their frequency reuse has really helped us, but we are starting to 
see more locations that have lots of noise.   We’d like to make the jump to 
higher frequencies and are looking at 11 GHz and 24 GHz for that.   The links 
we need are fairly short, 6-10 miles max, which pushes the limits of the 24 GHz 
solutions, but with a very clean line of site we think we are in range for the 
links we are looking at as far as the design tools tell us.   For 11 GHz, we 
would likely stay with the Mimosa product line, we know it pretty well and have 
all the management tools in place for it.   For 24 GHz we’d likely go with the 
Ubiquiti AF 24 or AF 24 HD.   We have worked with Ubiquiti stuff here and 
there, and just don’t have much familiarity with any other options outside of 
AirFiber.  Here is where we see the Pros and Cons of the two options:



Mimosa 11 GHz Pros:

  1.. Licensed, should be clean spectrum for the full term of the license 
and require less babysitting for interference 
  2.. Should support longer links, but that isn’t a big consideration for 
us as it looks like everything we will need is under the limits of the HD for 
sure and likely the AF 24 as well 
  c.. Little less susceptible to rain fade


Cons:

  1.. Have to mess around with the license and there is a cost associated 
with it 
  b.. Have to buy the dish separately, and know which to use before 
applying for the license 
  c.. Not quite as much throughput (when compared to the AF 24 HD) 
  d.. More expensive that the AF 24 (but likely a little less than the HD)




Ubiquiti AF 24 Pros:

  1.. All in one unit, easy to figure out what to have on hand for all 
links 
  b.. No messing around with licenses, making it much quicker to deploy 
  c.. Higher throughput on the HD


Cons:

  1.. Unlicensed.  Might fight other noise out there, and even quiet links 
now might have noise later 
  2.. Not as familiar with this tool set as we are with Mimosa, although 
this isn’t a big consideration as we have worked with lots of Ubiquiti products 
  c.. Cost of HD is pretty high for an unlicensed link


Here are some questions we are hoping for help with:

  1.. How much room in the unlicensed band is there to move channels if you 
see other noise out there?   We have been looking but are finding it tough to 
figure out if we run wide channels, and see noise, will we be able to move to 
other channels. 
  b.. Is it reasonable to think you can push 1.2 aggregate IP traffic 
across any of the three options B11, AF24 or AF24HD?   Seems like a well 
planned link with great line of site at 6 miles should be able to, but looking 
for some real world experience. 
  c.. Any oddball items we should take into consideration other than the 
ones already mentioned here? Or are we missing some obvious questions?

Re: [AFMUG] tying down wires

[Jeremy]

I tried those once, and the adhesive failed in the Summer when the box got
hot.  Granted, this was for another company before we were using fans.
Have any of you been using them long-term?  How do they hold up over the
years?

On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 10:26 AM, David Coudron <
david.coud...@advantenon.com> wrote:

> We have started using these zip tie saddles as well inside our cabinets.
> What we like about them besides being cheap (10 cents apiece) is that they
> have adhesive on the back for quick connection to metal/plastic and a screw
> hole for attaching to more porous material.   Additionally you can run two
> zip ties through every one, which lets you double layer the wires over the
> zip tie saddle.
>
>
>
> David Coudron
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Jaime Solorza
> *Sent:* Friday, February 9, 2018 9:42 PM
> *To:* Animal Farm 
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] tying down wires
>
>
>
> We use these sometimes in enclosures to hold wires tied down with wire
> ties especially inside our cable management systems.   If required we also
> screw them into back panels. https://www.google.com/search?
> q=panduit+sgabm25-at-c0+cable+tie+mounting+pad,4-way,black,
> pk100=shop=seller:100446302,rt:4,pgb:1,cid:266062131006318401,pid:
> 7742393566737078290,oid:2629468581556939237,lsfqd:0=en-US=Iml-
> WuScE4LWtQXogoKgDA=gclid:CjwKCAiAqvXTBRBuEiwAE54dcGGbbJ9XpYXx-eZnn5_
> gDij9Nb3iHaSoshDcm2nnKTHJj7zJbApsFhoCzecQAvD_BwE
>
>
>
> On Feb 9, 2018 8:17 PM, "Adam Moffett"  wrote:
>
> That's robbery
>
>
>
> -- Original Message --
>
> From: "Steve Jones" 
>
> To: af@afmug.com
>
> Sent: 2/9/2018 8:59:11 PM
>
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] tying down wires
>
>
>
> it works but they run 40 some bucks around here
>
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 6:47 PM, Jon Langeler 
> wrote:
>
> I’ve been looking for a solution like this. Neat idea. One of our guys is
> basically trying to 3d print something like this
>
> Jon Langeler
>
> Michwave Technologies, Inc.
>
>
>
>
> On Feb 9, 2018, at 6:10 PM,   wrote:
>
> I wonder if I put one of these in the box:
>
> https://www.homedepot.com/p/Eaton-14-Terminal-Ground-Bar-
> Kit-GBK14CS/100175627
>
>
>
> with the screws removed, if that would be a suitable thing to tie off
> cables coming into the box to?
>
>
>
>
>
> (not sure the image will come through)
>
>
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] 24 GHz vs 11 GHz

[Josh Reynolds]

We had a lot of 4 mile+ links on AF24's that worked perfectly in ALASKA on
the coast.

Some places have more rain/hr than others.

On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 5:11 PM, Adair Winter 
wrote:

> AF24 is only going to be 5 9's reliable to about 1-2 miles depending on
> your rain zone.
> for 2-4 miles you could use 23Ghz (way more EIRP than 24Ghz)
> 4-8 miles 18Ghz
> 8-20 miles 11 Ghz
> and anything longer than that 6Ghz. unless you can mount really big dishes
> for 11.
>
>
> On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 5:05 PM, Gino A. Villarini 
> wrote:
>
>> For 6-10 miles 24 ghz its way out of the question.  Stick to 11 ghz.
>>
>> From: Af  on behalf of David Coudron <
>> david.coud...@advantenon.com>
>> Reply-To: "af@afmug.com" 
>> Date: Saturday, February 10, 2018 at 6:57 PM
>> To: "af@afmug.com" 
>> Subject: [AFMUG] 24 GHz vs 11 GHz
>>
>> I know this topic has come up before, but thought I would throw it out
>> again to hear additional thoughts as products continue to evolve.   We have
>> been doing primarily 5 GHz backhaul using Mimosa products for the last
>> couple of years.   Their frequency reuse has really helped us, but we are
>> starting to see more locations that have lots of noise.   We’d like to make
>> the jump to higher frequencies and are looking at 11 GHz and 24 GHz for
>> that.   The links we need are fairly short, 6-10 miles max, which pushes
>> the limits of the 24 GHz solutions, but with a very clean line of site we
>> think we are in range for the links we are looking at as far as the design
>> tools tell us.   For 11 GHz, we would likely stay with the Mimosa product
>> line, we know it pretty well and have all the management tools in place for
>> it.   For 24 GHz we’d likely go with the Ubiquiti AF 24 or AF 24 HD.   We
>> have worked with Ubiquiti stuff here and there, and just don’t have much
>> familiarity with any other options outside of AirFiber.  Here is where we
>> see the Pros and Cons of the two options:
>>
>>
>>
>> Mimosa 11 GHz Pros:
>>
>>1. Licensed, should be clean spectrum for the full term of the
>>license and require less babysitting for interference
>>2. Should support longer links, but that isn’t a big consideration
>>for us as it looks like everything we will need is under the limits of the
>>HD for sure and likely the AF 24 as well
>>3. Little less susceptible to rain fade
>>
>>
>>
>> Cons:
>>
>>1. Have to mess around with the license and there is a cost
>>associated with it
>>2. Have to buy the dish separately, and know which to use before
>>applying for the license
>>3. Not quite as much throughput (when compared to the AF 24 HD)
>>4. More expensive that the AF 24 (but likely a little less than the
>>HD)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Ubiquiti AF 24 Pros:
>>
>>1. All in one unit, easy to figure out what to have on hand for all
>>links
>>2. No messing around with licenses, making it much quicker to deploy
>>3. Higher throughput on the HD
>>
>>
>>
>> Cons:
>>
>>1. Unlicensed.  Might fight other noise out there, and even quiet
>>links now might have noise later
>>2. Not as familiar with this tool set as we are with Mimosa, although
>>this isn’t a big consideration as we have worked with lots of Ubiquiti
>>products
>>3. Cost of HD is pretty high for an unlicensed link
>>
>>
>>
>> Here are some questions we are hoping for help with:
>>
>>1. How much room in the unlicensed band is there to move channels if
>>you see other noise out there?   We have been looking but are finding it
>>tough to figure out if we run wide channels, and see noise, will we be 
>> able
>>to move to other channels.
>>2. Is it reasonable to think you can push 1.2 aggregate IP traffic
>>across any of the three options B11, AF24 or AF24HD?   Seems like a well
>>planned link with great line of site at 6 miles should be able to, but
>>looking for some real world experience.
>>3. Any oddball items we should take into consideration other than the
>>ones already mentioned here? Or are we missing some obvious questions?
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>>
>>
>> David Coudron
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *Gino A. Villarini*
>> President
>> Metro Office Park #18 Suite 304 Guaynabo, Puerto Rico 00968
>>
>>
>
>
> --
>
> Adair Winter
> VP, Network Operations / Co-Owner
> Amarillo Wireless | 806.316.5071 <(806)%20316-5071>
> C: 806.231.7180 <(806)%20231-7180>
> http://www.amarillowireless.net
> 
>
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] 24 GHz vs 11 GHz

[Robert Andrews]

AF24HD, 5 Miles Max in perfect conditions...

On 02/10/2018 02:57 PM, David Coudron wrote:
I know this topic has come up before, but thought I would throw it out 
again to hear additional thoughts as products continue to evolve.   We 
have been doing primarily 5 GHz backhaul using Mimosa products for the 
last couple of years. Their frequency reuse has really helped us, but we 
are starting to see more locations that have lots of noise.   We�d like 
to make the jump to higher frequencies and are looking at 11 GHz and 24 
GHz for that.   The links we need are fairly short, 6-10 miles max, 
which pushes the limits of the 24 GHz solutions, but with a very clean 
line of site we think we are in range for the links we are looking at as 
far as the design tools tell us.   For 11 GHz, we would likely stay with 
the Mimosa product line, we know it pretty well and have all the 
management tools in place for it.   For 24 GHz we�d likely go with the 
Ubiquiti AF 24 or AF 24 HD.   We have worked with Ubiquiti stuff here 
and there, and just don�t have much familiarity with any other options 
outside of AirFiber. Here is where we see the Pros and Cons of the two 
options:


Mimosa 11 GHz Pros:

 1. Licensed, should be clean spectrum for the full term of the license
and require less babysitting for interference
 2. Should support longer links, but that isn�t a big consideration for
us as it looks like everything we will need is under the limits of
the HD for sure and likely the AF 24 as well
 3. Little less susceptible to rain fade

Cons:

 1. Have to mess around with the license and there is a cost associated
with it
 2. Have to buy the dish separately, and know which to use before
applying for the license
 3. Not quite as much throughput (when compared to the AF 24 HD)
 4. More expensive that the AF 24 (but likely a little less than the HD)

Ubiquiti AF 24 Pros:

 1. All in one unit, easy to figure out what to have on hand for all links
 2. No messing around with licenses, making it much quicker to deploy
 3. Higher throughput on the HD

Cons:

 1. Unlicensed.  Might fight other noise out there, and even quiet links
now might have noise later
 2. Not as familiar with this tool set as we are with Mimosa, although
this isn�t a big consideration as we have worked with lots of
Ubiquiti products
 3. Cost of HD is pretty high for an unlicensed link

Here are some questions we are hoping for help with:

 1. How much room in the unlicensed band is there to move channels if
you see other noise out there?   We have been looking but are
finding it tough to figure out if we run wide channels, and see
noise, will we be able to move to other channels.
 2. Is it reasonable to think you can push 1.2 aggregate IP traffic
across any of the three options B11, AF24 or AF24HD?   Seems like a
well planned link with great line of site at 6 miles should be able
to, but looking for some real world experience.
 3. Any oddball items we should take into consideration other than the
ones already mentioned here? Or are we missing some obvious questions?

Thanks,

David Coudron

Re: [AFMUG] 24 GHz vs 11 GHz

[Adair Winter]

AF24 is only going to be 5 9's reliable to about 1-2 miles depending on
your rain zone.
for 2-4 miles you could use 23Ghz (way more EIRP than 24Ghz)
4-8 miles 18Ghz
8-20 miles 11 Ghz
and anything longer than that 6Ghz. unless you can mount really big dishes
for 11.


On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 5:05 PM, Gino A. Villarini 
wrote:

> For 6-10 miles 24 ghz its way out of the question.  Stick to 11 ghz.
>
> From: Af  on behalf of David Coudron <
> david.coud...@advantenon.com>
> Reply-To: "af@afmug.com" 
> Date: Saturday, February 10, 2018 at 6:57 PM
> To: "af@afmug.com" 
> Subject: [AFMUG] 24 GHz vs 11 GHz
>
> I know this topic has come up before, but thought I would throw it out
> again to hear additional thoughts as products continue to evolve.   We have
> been doing primarily 5 GHz backhaul using Mimosa products for the last
> couple of years.   Their frequency reuse has really helped us, but we are
> starting to see more locations that have lots of noise.   We’d like to make
> the jump to higher frequencies and are looking at 11 GHz and 24 GHz for
> that.   The links we need are fairly short, 6-10 miles max, which pushes
> the limits of the 24 GHz solutions, but with a very clean line of site we
> think we are in range for the links we are looking at as far as the design
> tools tell us.   For 11 GHz, we would likely stay with the Mimosa product
> line, we know it pretty well and have all the management tools in place for
> it.   For 24 GHz we’d likely go with the Ubiquiti AF 24 or AF 24 HD.   We
> have worked with Ubiquiti stuff here and there, and just don’t have much
> familiarity with any other options outside of AirFiber.  Here is where we
> see the Pros and Cons of the two options:
>
>
>
> Mimosa 11 GHz Pros:
>
>1. Licensed, should be clean spectrum for the full term of the license
>and require less babysitting for interference
>2. Should support longer links, but that isn’t a big consideration for
>us as it looks like everything we will need is under the limits of the HD
>for sure and likely the AF 24 as well
>3. Little less susceptible to rain fade
>
>
>
> Cons:
>
>1. Have to mess around with the license and there is a cost associated
>with it
>2. Have to buy the dish separately, and know which to use before
>applying for the license
>3. Not quite as much throughput (when compared to the AF 24 HD)
>4. More expensive that the AF 24 (but likely a little less than the HD)
>
>
>
>
>
> Ubiquiti AF 24 Pros:
>
>1. All in one unit, easy to figure out what to have on hand for all
>links
>2. No messing around with licenses, making it much quicker to deploy
>3. Higher throughput on the HD
>
>
>
> Cons:
>
>1. Unlicensed.  Might fight other noise out there, and even quiet
>links now might have noise later
>2. Not as familiar with this tool set as we are with Mimosa, although
>this isn’t a big consideration as we have worked with lots of Ubiquiti
>products
>3. Cost of HD is pretty high for an unlicensed link
>
>
>
> Here are some questions we are hoping for help with:
>
>1. How much room in the unlicensed band is there to move channels if
>you see other noise out there?   We have been looking but are finding it
>tough to figure out if we run wide channels, and see noise, will we be able
>to move to other channels.
>2. Is it reasonable to think you can push 1.2 aggregate IP traffic
>across any of the three options B11, AF24 or AF24HD?   Seems like a well
>planned link with great line of site at 6 miles should be able to, but
>looking for some real world experience.
>3. Any oddball items we should take into consideration other than the
>ones already mentioned here? Or are we missing some obvious questions?
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
> David Coudron
>
>
>
>
>
> *Gino A. Villarini*
> President
> Metro Office Park #18 Suite 304 Guaynabo, Puerto Rico 00968
>
>


-- 

Adair Winter
VP, Network Operations / Co-Owner
Amarillo Wireless | 806.316.5071
C: 806.231.7180
http://www.amarillowireless.net

Re: [AFMUG] 24 GHz vs 11 GHz

[Gino A. Villarini]

For 6-10 miles 24 ghz its way out of the question.  Stick to 11 ghz.

From: Af > on behalf of David 
Coudron >
Reply-To: "af@afmug.com" 
>
Date: Saturday, February 10, 2018 at 6:57 PM
To: "af@afmug.com" >
Subject: [AFMUG] 24 GHz vs 11 GHz

I know this topic has come up before, but thought I would throw it out again to 
hear additional thoughts as products continue to evolve.   We have been doing 
primarily 5 GHz backhaul using Mimosa products for the last couple of years.   
Their frequency reuse has really helped us, but we are starting to see more 
locations that have lots of noise.   We’d like to make the jump to higher 
frequencies and are looking at 11 GHz and 24 GHz for that.   The links we need 
are fairly short, 6-10 miles max, which pushes the limits of the 24 GHz 
solutions, but with a very clean line of site we think we are in range for the 
links we are looking at as far as the design tools tell us.   For 11 GHz, we 
would likely stay with the Mimosa product line, we know it pretty well and have 
all the management tools in place for it.   For 24 GHz we’d likely go with the 
Ubiquiti AF 24 or AF 24 HD.   We have worked with Ubiquiti stuff here and 
there, and just don’t have much familiarity with any other options outside of 
AirFiber.  Here is where we see the Pros and Cons of the two options:

Mimosa 11 GHz Pros:

  1.  Licensed, should be clean spectrum for the full term of the license and 
require less babysitting for interference
  2.  Should support longer links, but that isn’t a big consideration for us as 
it looks like everything we will need is under the limits of the HD for sure 
and likely the AF 24 as well
  3.  Little less susceptible to rain fade

Cons:

  1.  Have to mess around with the license and there is a cost associated with 
it
  2.  Have to buy the dish separately, and know which to use before applying 
for the license
  3.  Not quite as much throughput (when compared to the AF 24 HD)
  4.  More expensive that the AF 24 (but likely a little less than the HD)


Ubiquiti AF 24 Pros:

  1.  All in one unit, easy to figure out what to have on hand for all links
  2.  No messing around with licenses, making it much quicker to deploy
  3.  Higher throughput on the HD

Cons:

  1.  Unlicensed.  Might fight other noise out there, and even quiet links now 
might have noise later
  2.  Not as familiar with this tool set as we are with Mimosa, although this 
isn’t a big consideration as we have worked with lots of Ubiquiti products
  3.  Cost of HD is pretty high for an unlicensed link

Here are some questions we are hoping for help with:

  1.  How much room in the unlicensed band is there to move channels if you see 
other noise out there?   We have been looking but are finding it tough to 
figure out if we run wide channels, and see noise, will we be able to move to 
other channels.
  2.  Is it reasonable to think you can push 1.2 aggregate IP traffic across 
any of the three options B11, AF24 or AF24HD?   Seems like a well planned link 
with great line of site at 6 miles should be able to, but looking for some real 
world experience.
  3.  Any oddball items we should take into consideration other than the ones 
already mentioned here? Or are we missing some obvious questions?

Thanks,

David Coudron




Gino A. Villarini


President
Metro Office Park #18 Suite 304 Guaynabo, Puerto Rico 00968

[cid:aeronet-logo_310cfc3e-6691-4f69-bd49-b37b834b9238.png]

[AFMUG] 24 GHz vs 11 GHz

[David Coudron]

I know this topic has come up before, but thought I would throw it out again to 
hear additional thoughts as products continue to evolve.   We have been doing 
primarily 5 GHz backhaul using Mimosa products for the last couple of years.   
Their frequency reuse has really helped us, but we are starting to see more 
locations that have lots of noise.   We'd like to make the jump to higher 
frequencies and are looking at 11 GHz and 24 GHz for that.   The links we need 
are fairly short, 6-10 miles max, which pushes the limits of the 24 GHz 
solutions, but with a very clean line of site we think we are in range for the 
links we are looking at as far as the design tools tell us.   For 11 GHz, we 
would likely stay with the Mimosa product line, we know it pretty well and have 
all the management tools in place for it.   For 24 GHz we'd likely go with the 
Ubiquiti AF 24 or AF 24 HD.   We have worked with Ubiquiti stuff here and 
there, and just don't have much familiarity with any other options outside of 
AirFiber.  Here is where we see the Pros and Cons of the two options:

Mimosa 11 GHz Pros:

  1.  Licensed, should be clean spectrum for the full term of the license and 
require less babysitting for interference
  2.  Should support longer links, but that isn't a big consideration for us as 
it looks like everything we will need is under the limits of the HD for sure 
and likely the AF 24 as well
  3.  Little less susceptible to rain fade

Cons:

  1.  Have to mess around with the license and there is a cost associated with 
it
  2.  Have to buy the dish separately, and know which to use before applying 
for the license
  3.  Not quite as much throughput (when compared to the AF 24 HD)
  4.  More expensive that the AF 24 (but likely a little less than the HD)


Ubiquiti AF 24 Pros:

  1.  All in one unit, easy to figure out what to have on hand for all links
  2.  No messing around with licenses, making it much quicker to deploy
  3.  Higher throughput on the HD

Cons:

  1.  Unlicensed.  Might fight other noise out there, and even quiet links now 
might have noise later
  2.  Not as familiar with this tool set as we are with Mimosa, although this 
isn't a big consideration as we have worked with lots of Ubiquiti products
  3.  Cost of HD is pretty high for an unlicensed link

Here are some questions we are hoping for help with:

  1.  How much room in the unlicensed band is there to move channels if you see 
other noise out there?   We have been looking but are finding it tough to 
figure out if we run wide channels, and see noise, will we be able to move to 
other channels.
  2.  Is it reasonable to think you can push 1.2 aggregate IP traffic across 
any of the three options B11, AF24 or AF24HD?   Seems like a well planned link 
with great line of site at 6 miles should be able to, but looking for some real 
world experience.
  3.  Any oddball items we should take into consideration other than the ones 
already mentioned here? Or are we missing some obvious questions?

Thanks,

David Coudron

Re: [AFMUG] tying down wires

[Adam Moffett]

I stuck them on painted drywall once and they fell off the next day.  
Stuck them on a painted metal box 3 years ago and they're still there.  
Adhesive performance definitely varies by surface, so I do back them up 
with a screw wherever that's feasible.


Anyway on the original topic we've circled back to just providing a 
place for zip ties, which is what Chuck is already doing.

The panduit catalog does have some interesting options though.


-- Original Message --
From: "David Coudron" 
To: "af@afmug.com" 
Sent: 2/10/2018 12:26:49 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] tying down wires

We have started using these zip tie saddles as well inside our 
cabinets.   What we like about them besides being cheap (10 cents 
apiece) is that they have adhesive on the back for quick connection to 
metal/plastic and a screw hole for attaching to more porous material.   
Additionally you can run two zip ties through every one, which lets you 
double layer the wires over the zip tie saddle.




David Coudron





From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Jaime Solorza
Sent: Friday, February 9, 2018 9:42 PM
To: Animal Farm 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] tying down wires



We use these sometimes in enclosures to hold wires tied down with wire 
ties especially inside our cable management systems.   If required we 
also screw them into back panels. 
https://www.google.com/search?q=panduit+sgabm25-at-c0+cable+tie+mounting+pad,4-way,black,pk100=shop=seller:100446302,rt:4,pgb:1,cid:266062131006318401,pid:7742393566737078290,oid:2629468581556939237,lsfqd:0=en-US=Iml-WuScE4LWtQXogoKgDA=gclid:CjwKCAiAqvXTBRBuEiwAE54dcGGbbJ9XpYXx-eZnn5_gDij9Nb3iHaSoshDcm2nnKTHJj7zJbApsFhoCzecQAvD_BwE 





On Feb 9, 2018 8:17 PM, "Adam Moffett"  wrote:


That's robbery



-- Original Message --

From: "Steve Jones" 

To: af@afmug.com

Sent: 2/9/2018 8:59:11 PM

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] tying down wires




it works but they run 40 some bucks around here



On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 6:47 PM, Jon Langeler 
 wrote:


I’ve been looking for a solution like this. Neat idea. One of our 
guys is basically trying to 3d print something like this


Jon Langeler

Michwave Technologies, Inc.




On Feb 9, 2018, at 6:10 PM,   
wrote:



I wonder if I put one of these in the box:

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Eaton-14-Terminal-Ground-Bar-Kit-GBK14CS/100175627



with the screws removed, if that would be a suitable thing to tie 
off cables coming into the box to?






(not sure the image will come through)

Re: [AFMUG] tying down wires

[David Coudron]

We have started using these zip tie saddles as well inside our cabinets.   What 
we like about them besides being cheap (10 cents apiece) is that they have 
adhesive on the back for quick connection to metal/plastic and a screw hole for 
attaching to more porous material.   Additionally you can run two zip ties 
through every one, which lets you double layer the wires over the zip tie 
saddle.

David Coudron


From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Jaime Solorza
Sent: Friday, February 9, 2018 9:42 PM
To: Animal Farm 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] tying down wires

We use these sometimes in enclosures to hold wires tied down with wire ties 
especially inside our cable management systems.   If required we also screw 
them into back panels. 
https://www.google.com/search?q=panduit+sgabm25-at-c0+cable+tie+mounting+pad,4-way,black,pk100=shop=seller:100446302,rt:4,pgb:1,cid:266062131006318401,pid:7742393566737078290,oid:2629468581556939237,lsfqd:0=en-US=Iml-WuScE4LWtQXogoKgDA=gclid:CjwKCAiAqvXTBRBuEiwAE54dcGGbbJ9XpYXx-eZnn5_gDij9Nb3iHaSoshDcm2nnKTHJj7zJbApsFhoCzecQAvD_BwE

On Feb 9, 2018 8:17 PM, "Adam Moffett" 
> wrote:
That's robbery

-- Original Message --
From: "Steve Jones" 
>
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 2/9/2018 8:59:11 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] tying down wires

it works but they run 40 some bucks around here

On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 6:47 PM, Jon Langeler 
> wrote:
I’ve been looking for a solution like this. Neat idea. One of our guys is 
basically trying to 3d print something like this
Jon Langeler
Michwave Technologies, Inc.


On Feb 9, 2018, at 6:10 PM, > 
> wrote:
I wonder if I put one of these in the box:
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Eaton-14-Terminal-Ground-Bar-Kit-GBK14CS/100175627

with the screws removed, if that would be a suitable thing to tie off cables 
coming into the box to?


(not sure the image will come through)
[https://images.homedepot-static.com/productImages/c499dbbc-3ac5-4ed2-9c3a-fd0aa87aba9d/svn/eaton-grounding-bars-gbk14cs-64_1000.jpg]

Re: [AFMUG] tying down wires

[Chuck McCown]

I think I spent $4 at Home Depot yesterday for one to play with.  

From: Steve Jones 
Sent: Friday, February 09, 2018 6:59 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] tying down wires

it works but they run 40 some bucks around here

On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 6:47 PM, Jon Langeler  wrote:

  I’ve been looking for a solution like this. Neat idea. One of our guys is 
basically trying to 3d print something like this 


  Jon Langeler
  Michwave Technologies, Inc.


  On Feb 9, 2018, at 6:10 PM,   wrote:


I wonder if I put one of these in the box:

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Eaton-14-Terminal-Ground-Bar-Kit-GBK14CS/100175627

with the screws removed, if that would be a suitable thing to tie off 
cables coming into the box to?


(not sure the image will come through)