Re: Mark Launches Singularity :-) WAS Re: [agi] Microsoft Launches Singularity
Mentifex called; it wants its ASCII diagrams back. -Chris --- agi Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: http://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=98558129-0bdb63 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] Instead of an AGI Textbook
Well ... I can take a shot at putting a diagram together. Making Mind Maps is one way I learn any kind of material I want. If the topics in the list(s) are descriptive enough, I can take a shot at putting such a diagram together. It'd be less work to correct it than to make one, right? Hey - whatever helps. For me, it's a win-win. It would help me, and it would help accomplish what you guys are trying to do. Let me know, ~Aki On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 10:40 PM, Ben Goertzel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This kind of diagram would certainly be meaningful, but, it would be a lot of work to put together, even more so than a traditional TOC ... On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 11:02 PM, Aki Iskandar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Pei - What about having a tree like diagram that branches out into either: - the different paths / approaches to AGI (for instance: NARS, Novamente, and Richard's, etc.), with suggested readings at those leaves - area of study, with suggested readings at those leaves Or possibly, a Mind Map diagram that shows AGI in the middle, with the approaches stemming from it, and then either sub fields, or a reading list and / or collection of links (though the links may become outdated, dead). Point is, would a diagram help map the field - which caters to the differing approaches, and which helps those wanting to chart a course to their own learning/study ? Thanks, ~Aki On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 9:22 PM, Pei Wang [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ben, It is a good start! Of course everyone else will disagree --- like what Richard did and I'm going to do. ;-) I'll try to find the time to provide my list --- at this moment, it will be more like a reading list than a textbook TOC. In the future, it will be integrated into the E-book I'm working on (http://nars.wang.googlepages.com/gti-summary). Compared to yours, mine will contain less math and algorithms, but more psychology and philosophy. I'd like to see what Richard and others want to propose. We shouldn't try to merge them into one wiki page, but several. Pei On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 7:46 PM, Ben Goertzel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, A lot of students email me asking me what to read to get up to speed on AGI. So I started a wiki page called Instead of an AGI Textbook, http://www.agiri.org/wiki/Instead_of_an_AGI_Textbook#Computational_Linguistics Unfortunately I did not yet find time to do much but outline a table of contents there. So I'm hoping some of you can chip in and fill in some relevant hyperlinks on the pages I've created ;-) For those of you too lazy to click the above link, here is the introductory note I put on the wiki page: I've often lamented the fact that there is no advanced undergrad level textbook for AGI, analogous to what Russell and Norvig is for Narrow AI. Unfortunately, I don't have time to write such a textbook, and no one else with the requisite knowledge and ability seems to have the time and inclination either. So, instead of a textbook, I thought it would make sense to outline here what the table of contents of such a textbook might look like, and to fill in each section within each chapter in this TOC with a few links to available online resources dealing with the topic of the section. However, all I found time to do today (March 25, 2008) is make the TOC. Maybe later I will fill in the links on each section's page, or maybe by the time I get around it some other folks will have done it. While nowhere near as good as a textbook, I do think this can be a valuable resource for those wanting to get up to speed on AGI concepts and not knowing where to turn to get started. There are some available AGI bibliographies, but a structured bibliography like this can probably be more useful than an unstructured and heterogeneous one. Naturally my initial TOC represents some of my own biases, but I trust that by having others help edit it, these biases will ultimately come out in the wash. Just to be clear: the idea here is not to present solely AGI material. Rather the idea is to present material that I think students would do well to know, if they want to work on AGI. This includes some AGI, some narrow AI, some psychology, some neuroscience, some mathematics, etc. *** -- Ben -- Ben Goertzel, PhD CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC Director of Research, SIAI [EMAIL PROTECTED] If men cease to believe that they will one day become gods then they will surely become worms. -- Henry Miller --- agi Archives:
Re: [agi] Instead of an AGI Textbook
Is there some kind of online software that lets a group of people update a Mind Map diagram collaboratively, in the manner of a Wiki page? This would seem critical if a Mind Map is to really be useful for the purpose you suggest... -- Ben On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 8:32 AM, Aki Iskandar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well ... I can take a shot at putting a diagram together. Making Mind Maps is one way I learn any kind of material I want. If the topics in the list(s) are descriptive enough, I can take a shot at putting such a diagram together. It'd be less work to correct it than to make one, right? Hey - whatever helps. For me, it's a win-win. It would help me, and it would help accomplish what you guys are trying to do. Let me know, ~Aki On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 10:40 PM, Ben Goertzel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This kind of diagram would certainly be meaningful, but, it would be a lot of work to put together, even more so than a traditional TOC ... On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 11:02 PM, Aki Iskandar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Pei - What about having a tree like diagram that branches out into either: - the different paths / approaches to AGI (for instance: NARS, Novamente, and Richard's, etc.), with suggested readings at those leaves - area of study, with suggested readings at those leaves Or possibly, a Mind Map diagram that shows AGI in the middle, with the approaches stemming from it, and then either sub fields, or a reading list and / or collection of links (though the links may become outdated, dead). Point is, would a diagram help map the field - which caters to the differing approaches, and which helps those wanting to chart a course to their own learning/study ? Thanks, ~Aki On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 9:22 PM, Pei Wang [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ben, It is a good start! Of course everyone else will disagree --- like what Richard did and I'm going to do. ;-) I'll try to find the time to provide my list --- at this moment, it will be more like a reading list than a textbook TOC. In the future, it will be integrated into the E-book I'm working on (http://nars.wang.googlepages.com/gti-summary). Compared to yours, mine will contain less math and algorithms, but more psychology and philosophy. I'd like to see what Richard and others want to propose. We shouldn't try to merge them into one wiki page, but several. Pei On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 7:46 PM, Ben Goertzel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, A lot of students email me asking me what to read to get up to speed on AGI. So I started a wiki page called Instead of an AGI Textbook, http://www.agiri.org/wiki/Instead_of_an_AGI_Textbook#Computational_Linguistics Unfortunately I did not yet find time to do much but outline a table of contents there. So I'm hoping some of you can chip in and fill in some relevant hyperlinks on the pages I've created ;-) For those of you too lazy to click the above link, here is the introductory note I put on the wiki page: I've often lamented the fact that there is no advanced undergrad level textbook for AGI, analogous to what Russell and Norvig is for Narrow AI. Unfortunately, I don't have time to write such a textbook, and no one else with the requisite knowledge and ability seems to have the time and inclination either. So, instead of a textbook, I thought it would make sense to outline here what the table of contents of such a textbook might look like, and to fill in each section within each chapter in this TOC with a few links to available online resources dealing with the topic of the section. However, all I found time to do today (March 25, 2008) is make the TOC. Maybe later I will fill in the links on each section's page, or maybe by the time I get around it some other folks will have done it. While nowhere near as good as a textbook, I do think this can be a valuable resource for those wanting to get up to speed on AGI concepts and not knowing where to turn to get started. There are some available AGI bibliographies, but a structured bibliography like this can probably be more useful than an unstructured and heterogeneous one. Naturally my initial TOC represents some of my own biases, but I trust that by having others help edit it, these biases will ultimately come out in the wash. Just to be clear: the idea here is not to present solely AGI material. Rather the idea is to present material that I think students would do well to know, if they want to work on AGI. This includes some AGI, some narrow AI, some
Re: [agi] The Effect of Application of an Idea
On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 7:19 PM, Vladimir Nesov [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Certainly ambiguity (=applicability to multiple contexts in different ways) and presence of rich structure in presumably simple 'ideas', as you call it, is a known issue. Even interaction between concept clouds evoked by a pair of words is a nontrivial process (triangular lightbulb). In a way, whole operation can be modeled by such interactions, where sensory input/recall is taken to present a stream of triggers that evoke concept cloud after cloud, with associations and compound concepts forming at the overlaps. But of course it's too hand-wavy without a more restricted model of what's going on. Communicating something that exists solely on high level is very inefficient, plus most of such content can turn out to be wrong. Back to prototyping... -- Vladimir Nesov [EMAIL PROTECTED] I agreed with you up until your conclusion. While the problems that I talked about may be known issues, they are discussed almost exclusively using intuitive models, like we used, or by referring to ineffective models, like network theories that do not explicitly show how its associative interrelations would effectively deal with the intricate conceptual details that would be required to address these issues and would be produced by an effective solution. I have never seen any theory that was designed to specifically address the range of situations that I am thinking of although most earlier AI models were intended to deal similar issues and I have seen some exemplary models that did use controlled models which showed how some of these interrelations might be modeled. These intuitive discussions and the exaggerated effectiveness of inadequate programs creates a concept cloud itself, and the problem is that the knowledgeable listener has a feeling that he understands the problem even without having made any kind of commitment to the exploration of an effective solution. Although I have not detailed how the effects of the application of ideas might be modeled in an actual AI program (or in an extremely simple model that I would use to start studying the modeling) my whole point is that if you are interested in advancing AI programming, then the issue that my theory addresses is a problem that can not be dismissed with a wave of the hand. The next step for me is to find a model that would be strong enough to hold up to genuine extensible learning. If you are making a decision on how much time you should spend thinking about this based only on whether or not you have thought about similar problems I believe that you have already considered some sampling of the kind of problems that my theory is meant to address. Jim Bromer --- agi Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: http://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=98558129-0bdb63 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] Instead of an AGI Textbook
Hi Ben, I have a publisher who would love to publish the result of the wiki as a textbook if you are willing. Mark - Original Message - From: Ben Goertzel [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: agi@v2.listbox.com Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 7:46 PM Subject: [agi] Instead of an AGI Textbook Hi all, A lot of students email me asking me what to read to get up to speed on AGI. So I started a wiki page called Instead of an AGI Textbook, http://www.agiri.org/wiki/Instead_of_an_AGI_Textbook#Computational_Linguistics Unfortunately I did not yet find time to do much but outline a table of contents there. So I'm hoping some of you can chip in and fill in some relevant hyperlinks on the pages I've created ;-) For those of you too lazy to click the above link, here is the introductory note I put on the wiki page: I've often lamented the fact that there is no advanced undergrad level textbook for AGI, analogous to what Russell and Norvig is for Narrow AI. Unfortunately, I don't have time to write such a textbook, and no one else with the requisite knowledge and ability seems to have the time and inclination either. So, instead of a textbook, I thought it would make sense to outline here what the table of contents of such a textbook might look like, and to fill in each section within each chapter in this TOC with a few links to available online resources dealing with the topic of the section. However, all I found time to do today (March 25, 2008) is make the TOC. Maybe later I will fill in the links on each section's page, or maybe by the time I get around it some other folks will have done it. While nowhere near as good as a textbook, I do think this can be a valuable resource for those wanting to get up to speed on AGI concepts and not knowing where to turn to get started. There are some available AGI bibliographies, but a structured bibliography like this can probably be more useful than an unstructured and heterogeneous one. Naturally my initial TOC represents some of my own biases, but I trust that by having others help edit it, these biases will ultimately come out in the wash. Just to be clear: the idea here is not to present solely AGI material. Rather the idea is to present material that I think students would do well to know, if they want to work on AGI. This includes some AGI, some narrow AI, some psychology, some neuroscience, some mathematics, etc. *** -- Ben -- Ben Goertzel, PhD CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC Director of Research, SIAI [EMAIL PROTECTED] If men cease to believe that they will one day become gods then they will surely become worms. -- Henry Miller --- agi Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: http://www.listbox.com/member/?; Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com --- agi Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: http://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=98558129-0bdb63 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] Instead of an AGI Textbook
Ben, Wikipedia has significant overlap with the topic list on the AGIRI Wiki. I propose for discussion the notion that the AGIRI Wiki be content-compatible with Wikipedia along two dimensions: license - authors agree to the GNU Free Documentation Licenseeditorial standards - Wikipedia says that content should be sourced from one or more research papers or textbooks, not just from the personal knowledge of the author, or from some web page. I think that this principal should be followed to the degree possible. We could, for example, quarantine non-sourced content into clearly marked sections of the containing article. Typical non-sourced content would be some OpenCog API that is not yet published in a journal article, technical report, or text book.I concede in advance that most AGIRI Wiki authors will find Wikipedia editorial standards burdensome, but the benefit would be athat content from the AGIRI Wiki can be used to create new, or improve existing Wikipedia articles. And if we can agree that on the easy-to-achieve license, content from Wikipedia, e.g. my article on Hierarchical control systems can easily be imported into the AGIRI Wiki. Wikipedia is important to AGI, not only as an online encyclopedia that facilitates almost universal access to AGI related topics, but as a target for AI researchers that want to structure the text into a vast knowledge base. Somewhere down the road to self-improvement, an AGI will be reading Wikipedia. Stephen L. Reed -Steve Artificial Intelligence Researcher http://texai.org/blog http://texai.org 3008 Oak Crest Ave. Austin, Texas, USA 78704 512.791.7860 - Original Message From: Ben Goertzel [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: agi@v2.listbox.com Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 6:46:24 PM Subject: [agi] Instead of an AGI Textbook Hi all, A lot of students email me asking me what to read to get up to speed on AGI. So I started a wiki page called Instead of an AGI Textbook, http://www.agiri.org/wiki/Instead_of_an_AGI_Textbook#Computational_Linguistics Unfortunately I did not yet find time to do much but outline a table of contents there. So I'm hoping some of you can chip in and fill in some relevant hyperlinks on the pages I've created ;-) For those of you too lazy to click the above link, here is the introductory note I put on the wiki page: I've often lamented the fact that there is no advanced undergrad level textbook for AGI, analogous to what Russell and Norvig is for Narrow AI. Unfortunately, I don't have time to write such a textbook, and no one else with the requisite knowledge and ability seems to have the time and inclination either. So, instead of a textbook, I thought it would make sense to outline here what the table of contents of such a textbook might look like, and to fill in each section within each chapter in this TOC with a few links to available online resources dealing with the topic of the section. However, all I found time to do today (March 25, 2008) is make the TOC. Maybe later I will fill in the links on each section's page, or maybe by the time I get around it some other folks will have done it. While nowhere near as good as a textbook, I do think this can be a valuable resource for those wanting to get up to speed on AGI concepts and not knowing where to turn to get started. There are some available AGI bibliographies, but a structured bibliography like this can probably be more useful than an unstructured and heterogeneous one. Naturally my initial TOC represents some of my own biases, but I trust that by having others help edit it, these biases will ultimately come out in the wash. Just to be clear: the idea here is not to present solely AGI material. Rather the idea is to present material that I think students would do well to know, if they want to work on AGI. This includes some AGI, some narrow AI, some psychology, some neuroscience, some mathematics, etc. *** -- Ben -- Ben Goertzel, PhD CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC Director of Research, SIAI [EMAIL PROTECTED] If men cease to believe that they will one day become gods then they will surely become worms. -- Henry Miller --- agi Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: http://www.listbox.com/member/?; Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping --- agi Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: http://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=98558129-0bdb63 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] Instead of an AGI Textbook
Thanks Mark ... let's see how it evolves... I think the problem is not finding a publisher, but rather, finding the time to contribute and refine the content Maybe in a year or two there will be enough good content there that someone with appropriate time and inclination and skill can shape it into a textbook -- Ben On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 9:49 AM, Mark Waser [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Ben, I have a publisher who would love to publish the result of the wiki as a textbook if you are willing. Mark - Original Message - From: Ben Goertzel [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: agi@v2.listbox.com Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 7:46 PM Subject: [agi] Instead of an AGI Textbook Hi all, A lot of students email me asking me what to read to get up to speed on AGI. So I started a wiki page called Instead of an AGI Textbook, http://www.agiri.org/wiki/Instead_of_an_AGI_Textbook#Computational_Linguistics Unfortunately I did not yet find time to do much but outline a table of contents there. So I'm hoping some of you can chip in and fill in some relevant hyperlinks on the pages I've created ;-) For those of you too lazy to click the above link, here is the introductory note I put on the wiki page: I've often lamented the fact that there is no advanced undergrad level textbook for AGI, analogous to what Russell and Norvig is for Narrow AI. Unfortunately, I don't have time to write such a textbook, and no one else with the requisite knowledge and ability seems to have the time and inclination either. So, instead of a textbook, I thought it would make sense to outline here what the table of contents of such a textbook might look like, and to fill in each section within each chapter in this TOC with a few links to available online resources dealing with the topic of the section. However, all I found time to do today (March 25, 2008) is make the TOC. Maybe later I will fill in the links on each section's page, or maybe by the time I get around it some other folks will have done it. While nowhere near as good as a textbook, I do think this can be a valuable resource for those wanting to get up to speed on AGI concepts and not knowing where to turn to get started. There are some available AGI bibliographies, but a structured bibliography like this can probably be more useful than an unstructured and heterogeneous one. Naturally my initial TOC represents some of my own biases, but I trust that by having others help edit it, these biases will ultimately come out in the wash. Just to be clear: the idea here is not to present solely AGI material. Rather the idea is to present material that I think students would do well to know, if they want to work on AGI. This includes some AGI, some narrow AI, some psychology, some neuroscience, some mathematics, etc. *** -- Ben -- Ben Goertzel, PhD CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC Director of Research, SIAI [EMAIL PROTECTED] If men cease to believe that they will one day become gods then they will surely become worms. -- Henry Miller --- agi Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: http://www.listbox.com/member/?; Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com --- agi Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: http://www.listbox.com/member/?; Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com -- Ben Goertzel, PhD CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC Director of Research, SIAI [EMAIL PROTECTED] If men cease to believe that they will one day become gods then they will surely become worms. -- Henry Miller --- agi Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: http://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=98558129-0bdb63 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] Instead of an AGI Textbook
Hi Stephen, Ben, Wikipedia has significant overlap with the topic list on the AGIRI Wiki. I propose for discussion the notion that the AGIRI Wiki be content-compatible with Wikipedia along two dimensions: license - authors agree to the GNU Free Documentation License I have no problem with that editorial standards - Wikipedia says that content should be sourced from one or more research papers or textbooks, not just from the personal knowledge of the author, or from some web page. Well, I think it is appropriate that a wiki covering an in-development research area should contain a mix of sourced and non-sourced contents, actually. In many cases it's the non-sourced content that will be the most valuable, because it represents practical knowledge and experience of AGI researchers and developers, which is too new or raw to have been put into the formal literature yet. I concede in advance that most AGIRI Wiki authors will find Wikipedia editorial standards burdensome, To me this is a pretty major point. The challenge with an AGI wiki right now is to get people to contribute quality content at all ... so I'm not psyched about, right now at the starting stage, making them jump through hoops in order to do so. but the benefit would be athat content from the AGIRI Wiki can be used to create new, or improve existing Wikipedia articles. That would be the case so long as the license is in place, it doesn't require everything to be sourced -- appropriate sourcing could always be introduced at the time of porting to Wikipedia. As the author of a load of academic papers, I'm well aware of how irritating and time-consuming it is to properly reference sources. If I have to do that for text I place on the AGIRI wiki, I'm not likely to contribute much to it, just like I don't currently contribute much to Wikipedia. I just don't have the time And if we can agree that on the easy-to-achieve license, content from Wikipedia, e.g. my article on Hierarchical control systems can easily be imported into the AGIRI Wiki. I don't see a problem with the license. Wikipedia is important to AGI, not only as an online encyclopedia that facilitates almost universal access to AGI related topics, but as a target for AI researchers that want to structure the text into a vast knowledge base. Somewhere down the road to self-improvement, an AGI will be reading Wikipedia. Along with the rest of the Web ... for sure ;-) -- Ben --- agi Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: http://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=98558129-0bdb63 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] Instead of an AGI Textbook
Ben, I just created an account on the wiki and created my user page derived from my Wikipedia user page. Image uploads on the wiki work the same way as on Wikipedia - Yay. -Steve Stephen L. Reed Artificial Intelligence Researcher http://texai.org/blog http://texai.org 3008 Oak Crest Ave. Austin, Texas, USA 78704 512.791.7860 - Original Message From: Ben Goertzel [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: agi@v2.listbox.com Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 6:46:24 PM Subject: [agi] Instead of an AGI Textbook Hi all, A lot of students email me asking me what to read to get up to speed on AGI. So I started a wiki page called Instead of an AGI Textbook, http://www.agiri.org/wiki/Instead_of_an_AGI_Textbook#Computational_Linguistics Unfortunately I did not yet find time to do much but outline a table of contents there. So I'm hoping some of you can chip in and fill in some relevant hyperlinks on the pages I've created ;-) For those of you too lazy to click the above link, here is the introductory note I put on the wiki page: I've often lamented the fact that there is no advanced undergrad level textbook for AGI, analogous to what Russell and Norvig is for Narrow AI. Unfortunately, I don't have time to write such a textbook, and no one else with the requisite knowledge and ability seems to have the time and inclination either. So, instead of a textbook, I thought it would make sense to outline here what the table of contents of such a textbook might look like, and to fill in each section within each chapter in this TOC with a few links to available online resources dealing with the topic of the section. However, all I found time to do today (March 25, 2008) is make the TOC. Maybe later I will fill in the links on each section's page, or maybe by the time I get around it some other folks will have done it. While nowhere near as good as a textbook, I do think this can be a valuable resource for those wanting to get up to speed on AGI concepts and not knowing where to turn to get started. There are some available AGI bibliographies, but a structured bibliography like this can probably be more useful than an unstructured and heterogeneous one. Naturally my initial TOC represents some of my own biases, but I trust that by having others help edit it, these biases will ultimately come out in the wash. Just to be clear: the idea here is not to present solely AGI material. Rather the idea is to present material that I think students would do well to know, if they want to work on AGI. This includes some AGI, some narrow AI, some psychology, some neuroscience, some mathematics, etc. *** -- Ben -- Ben Goertzel, PhD CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC Director of Research, SIAI [EMAIL PROTECTED] If men cease to believe that they will one day become gods then they will surely become worms. -- Henry Miller --- agi Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: http://www.listbox.com/member/?; Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs --- agi Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: http://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=98558129-0bdb63 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] The Effect of Application of an Idea
On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 4:27 PM, Jim Bromer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I agreed with you up until your conclusion. While the problems that I talked about may be known issues, they are discussed almost exclusively using intuitive models, like we used, or by referring to ineffective models, like network theories that do not explicitly show how its associative interrelations would effectively deal with the intricate conceptual details that would be required to address these issues and would be produced by an effective solution. I have never seen any theory that was designed to specifically address the range of situations that I am thinking of although most earlier AI models were intended to deal similar issues and I have seen some exemplary models that did use controlled models which showed how some of these interrelations might be modeled. These intuitive discussions and the exaggerated effectiveness of inadequate programs creates a concept cloud itself, and the problem is that the knowledgeable listener has a feeling that he understands the problem even without having made any kind of commitment to the exploration of an effective solution. Although I have not detailed how the effects of the application of ideas might be modeled in an actual AI program (or in an extremely simple model that I would use to start studying the modeling) my whole point is that if you are interested in advancing AI programming, then the issue that my theory addresses is a problem that can not be dismissed with a wave of the hand. The next step for me is to find a model that would be strong enough to hold up to genuine extensible learning. If you are making a decision on how much time you should spend thinking about this based only on whether or not you have thought about similar problems I believe that you have already considered some sampling of the kind of problems that my theory is meant to address. What you describe is essentially my own path up to this point: I started with considering high-level capabilities and gradually worked towards an implementation that seems to be able to exhibit these high-level capabilities. At the end of my last message I referred to a pragmatic problem. Substrate with which I now experiment is essentially a very simple recurrent network with seemingly insignificant tweaks. Without high-level view of how to make it exhibit high-level capabilities I'd never look at it twice. Convincing someone else that it is that capable will take a rather long description, and I can well turn out to be wrong (so people have a perfectly good reason not to listen). It seems more sensible to stick to prototyping and wait for more solid results, either changing the theory, or demonstrating its potential. -- Vladimir Nesov [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- agi Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: http://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=98558129-0bdb63 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] Instead of an AGI Textbook
On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 12:47 PM, Ben Goertzel wrote: Is there some kind of online software that lets a group of people update a Mind Map diagram collaboratively, in the manner of a Wiki page? This would seem critical if a Mind Map is to really be useful for the purpose you suggest... Here is a recent review of online mind mapping software: http://usableworld.terapad.com/index.cfm?fa=contentNews.newsDetailsnewsID=41870from=listdirectoryId=14375 Online mindmap tools - Updated! By James Breeze in Mind Maps Published: Saturday, 08 March 08 BillK --- agi Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: http://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=98558129-0bdb63 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] Instead of an AGI Textbook
On 3/26/08, Ben Goertzel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A lot of students email me asking me what to read to get up to speed on AGI. Ben, while we're on the topic, could you elaborate a bit on what kind of prerequisite knowledge the books you've written/edited require? For instance, I've been putting off reading Artificial General Intelligence on the assumption that for the full benefit, it requires a good understanding of narrow-AI/basic compsci concepts that I haven't necessarily yet acquired (currently working my way through Russel Norvig in order to fix that). The Hidden Pattern sounds like it would be heavier on the general cogsci/philosophy of mind requirements, and the Probabilistic Logic Networks one probably needs a heavy dose of maths (what kind of maths)? What about the OpenCog/Novamente documentation you've mentioned maybe releasing this year? (Agiri.org seems to be down, by the way, so I can't access the textbook page.) -- http://www.saunalahti.fi/~tspro1/ | http://xuenay.livejournal.com/ Organizations worth your time: http://www.singinst.org/ | http://www.crnano.org/ | http://lifeboat.com/ --- agi Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: http://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=98558129-0bdb63 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] Instead of an AGI Textbook
A propos of the several branches of discussion about AGI textbooks on this thread... Knowing what I do about the structure and content of the book I am writing, I cannot imagine it being merged as just a set of branch points from other works, like the one growing from Ben's TOC. What I am doing is a coherent body of thought in its own right, with a radically different underlying philosophy, so it really needs to be a standalone project. Richard Loosemore --- agi Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: http://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=98558129-0bdb63 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] The Effect of Application of an Idea
On 25/03/2008, Vladimir Nesov [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote Simple systems can be computationally universal, so it's not an issue in itself. On the other hand, no learning algorithm is universal, there are always distributions that given algorithms will learn miserably. The problem is to find a learning algorithm/representation that has the right kind of bias to implement human-like performance. First a riddle: What can be all learning algorithms, but is none? I'd disagree. Okay simple systems can be computationally universal, but what does that really mean. Computational universality means to be able to represent any computable function, the range and domain of this function are assumed to be from the natural numbers to itself. Most AI formulations when they say that are computationally universal are only talking about function of F: I → O where I is the input and O is the output. These include the formulations of neural networks/GA etc that I have seen. However there are lots of interesting programs in computers that do not map the input to the output. Humans also do not just map the input to the output, we also think, ruminate, model and remember. This does not affect the range of functions from the input to the output, but it does change how quickly they can be moved between. What I am interested in is in systems where the ranges and domains of the functions are entities inside the system. That is the F: I → S, F: S → O, and F: S→ S are important and should be potentially computationally universal. Where S is the internal memory of the system. This allows the system to be all possible learning algorithms (although only one at any time), but also it is no algorithm (else F: I x S → S, would be fixed). General purpose desktop computers are these kinds of systems. If they weren't how else could we implement any type of learning system on them? Thus the answer to my riddle. The question I have been trying to answer precisely is how to govern these sorts of systems so they roughly do what you want, without you having to give precise instructions. Will Pearson --- agi Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: http://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=98558129-0bdb63 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] The Effect of Application of an Idea
On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 10:17 AM, Vladimir Nesov [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What you describe is essentially my own path up to this point: I started with considering high-level capabilities and gradually worked towards an implementation that seems to be able to exhibit these high-level capabilities. At the end of my last message I referred to a pragmatic problem. Substrate with which I now experiment is essentially a very simple recurrent network with seemingly insignificant tweaks. Without high-level view of how to make it exhibit high-level capabilities I'd never look at it twice. Convincing someone else that it is that capable will take a rather long description, and I can well turn out to be wrong (so people have a perfectly good reason not to listen). It seems more sensible to stick to prototyping and wait for more solid results, either changing the theory, or demonstrating its potential. -- Vladimir Nesov I do not know much about neural networks, but from what I read, I always felt that a recurrent network would be the only way you could feasibly get an ANN to represent (excuse my french) distinct items without absurdly huge and noisy expansions. So I am curious about what you are talking about. When you mention prototyping, you are talking about prototyping the neural network with high level concepts for easier demonstrations or something like that. I think there was some discussion about using 'labels' in neural networks on one of those links to an online video that were recently posted. Is this similar to what you mean by prototyping? Jim Bromer --- agi Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: http://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=98558129-0bdb63 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] The Effect of Application of an Idea
2008/3/26 William Pearson [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On 25/03/2008, Vladimir Nesov [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote Simple systems can be computationally universal, so it's not an issue in itself. On the other hand, no learning algorithm is universal, there are always distributions that given algorithms will learn miserably. The problem is to find a learning algorithm/representation that has the right kind of bias to implement human-like performance. First a riddle: What can be all learning algorithms, but is none? Excellent philosophical point!! Okay simple systems can be computationally universal, but what does that really mean. Computational universality means to be able to represent any computable function, the range and domain of this function are assumed to be from the natural numbers to itself. ---I think Godel would disagree. Most AI formulations when they say that are computationally universal are only talking about function of F: I → O where I is the input and O is the output. These include the formulations of neural networks/GA etc that I have seen. However there are lots of interesting programs in computers that do not map the input to the output. Humans also do not just map the input to the output, we also think, ruminate, model and remember. This does not affect the range of functions from the input to the output, but it does change how quickly they can be moved between. What I am interested in is in systems where the ranges and domains of the functions are entities inside the system. That is the F: I → S, F: S → O, and F: S→ S are important and should be potentially computationally universal. Where S is the internal memory of the system. This allows the system to be all possible learning algorithms (although only one at any time), but also it is no algorithm (else F: I x S → S, would be fixed). General purpose desktop computers are these kinds of systems. If they weren't how else could we implement any type of learning system on them? Thus the answer to my riddle. The question I have been trying to answer precisely is how to govern these sorts of systems so they roughly do what you want, without you having to give precise instructions. Will Pearson -I am going to read this more carefully later. However, the first part of the answer to your last question is that the governance of these kinds of systems will be based on general rules (or methods of generality) so you do not need to define all the precise instructions that would be needed. But, there is not one level of universality, there are potentially infinite levels of generalization, and they do not all mesh together perfectly. Although this kind of talk may not solve the problem, I believe that this is where we are going to end up working if we continue to work on the problem Jim Bromer --- agi Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: http://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=98558129-0bdb63 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] Instead of an AGI Textbook
Fair enough, Richard... Again I'll emphasize that the idea of the Instead of an AGI Textbook is not to teach any particular theory or design for AGI, but rather to convey background knowledge that is useful for folks who wish to come to grips with contemporary AGI theories and designs I have articulated my own coherent body of thought regarding AGI as well, but I consider it to best be presented at the research treatise or research paper rather than textbook level... -- Ben G On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 12:55 PM, Richard Loosemore [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A propos of the several branches of discussion about AGI textbooks on this thread... Knowing what I do about the structure and content of the book I am writing, I cannot imagine it being merged as just a set of branch points from other works, like the one growing from Ben's TOC. What I am doing is a coherent body of thought in its own right, with a radically different underlying philosophy, so it really needs to be a standalone project. Richard Loosemore --- agi Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: http://www.listbox.com/member/?; Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com -- Ben Goertzel, PhD CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC Director of Research, SIAI [EMAIL PROTECTED] If men cease to believe that they will one day become gods then they will surely become worms. -- Henry Miller --- agi Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: http://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=98558129-0bdb63 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] The Effect of Application of an Idea
On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 8:47 PM, Jim Bromer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I do not know much about neural networks, but from what I read, I always felt that a recurrent network would be the only way you could feasibly get an ANN to represent (excuse my french) distinct items without absurdly huge and noisy expansions. So I am curious about what you are talking about. When you mention prototyping, you are talking about prototyping the neural network with high level concepts for easier demonstrations or something like that. I think there was some discussion about using 'labels' in neural networks on one of those links to an online video that were recently posted. Is this similar to what you mean by prototyping? For now objective is to try to achieve basic high-level dynamics that this architecture was designed to implement, and thus to partially establish consistence of many-faceted high-level design with simple network implementation. If this stage succeeds, after a bit of scalability implementation it should be possible to start teaching it more impressive high-level feats. -- Vladimir Nesov [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- agi Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: http://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=98558129-0bdb63 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] Microsoft Launches Singularity
John G. Rose wrote: From: Richard Loosemore [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] My take on this is completely different. When I say Narrow AI I am specifically referring to something that is so limited that it has virtually no chance of becoming a general intelligence. There is more to general intelligence than just throwing a bunch of Narrow AI ideas into a pot and hoping for the best. If it were, we would have had AGI long before now. It's an opinion that AGI could not be built out of a conglomeration of narrow-AI subcomponents. Also there are many things that COULD be built with narrow-AI that we have not even scratched the surface of due to a number of different limitations so saying that we would have achieved AGI long ago is an exaggeration. I don't think a General Intelligence could be built entirely out of narrow AI components, but it might well be a relatively trivial add-on. Just consider how much of human intelligence is demonstrably narrow AI (well, not artificial, but you know what I mean). Object recognition, e.g. Then start trying to guess how much of the part that we can't prove a classification for is likely to be a narrow intelligence component. In my estimation (without factual backing) less than 0.001 of our intelligence is General Intellignece, possibly much less. Consciousness and self-awareness are things that come as part of the AGI package. If the system is too simple to have/do these things, it will not be general enough to equal the human mind. I feel that general intelligence may not require consciousness and self-awareness. I am not sure of this and may prove myself wrong. To equal the human mind you need these things of course and to satisfy the sci-fi fantasy world's appetite for intelligent computers you would need to incorporate these as well. John I'm not sure of the distinction that you are making between consciousness and self-awareness, but even most complex narrow-AI applications require at least rudimentary self awareness. In fact, one could argue that all object oriented programming with inheritance has rudimentary self awareness (called this in many languages, but in others called self). This may be too rudimentary, but it's my feeling that it's an actual model(implementation?) of what the concept of self has evolved from. As to an AGI not being conscious I'd need to see a definition of your terms, because otherwise I've *got* to presume that we have radically different definitions. To me an AGI would not only need to be aware of itself, but also to be aware of aspects of it's environment that it could effect changes in, And of the difference between them, though that might well be learned. (Zen: Who is the master who makes the grass green?, and a few other koans when solved imply that in humans the distinction between internal and external is a learned response.) Perhaps the diagnostic characteristic of an AGI is that it CAN learn that kind of thing. Perhaps not, too. I can imagine a narrow AI that was designed to plug into different bodies, and in each case learn the distinction between itself and the environment before proceeding with its assignment. I'm not sure it's possible, but I can imagine it. OTOH, if we take my arguments in the preceding paragraph too seriously, then medical patients that are locked in would be considered not intelligent. This is clearly incorrect. Effectively they aren't intelligent, but that's because of a mechanical breakdown in the sensory/motor area, and that clearly isn't what we mean when we talk about intelligence. But examples of recovered/recovering patients seem to imply that they weren't exactly either intelligent or conscious while they were locked-in. (I'm going solely by reports in the popular science press...so don't take this too seriously.) It appears as if when external sensations are cut-off, that the mind estivates...at least after awhile. Presumably different patients had different causes, and thence at least slightly different effects, but that's my first-cut guess at what's happening. OTOH, the sensory/motor channel doesn't need to be particularly well functioning. Look at Stephan Hawking. --- agi Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: http://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=98558129-0bdb63 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
[agi] Why Hugo de Garis is WRONG!
Before swatting at one of those pesky flies that come out as the days lengthen and the temperature rises, one should probably think twice. A University of Missouri researcher has found, through the study of Drosophila (a type of fruit fly), that by manipulating levels of certain compounds associated with the circuitry of the brain, key genes related to memory can be isolated and tested. The results of the study may benefit human patients suffering from Parkinson's disease and could eventually lead to discoveries in the treatment of depression. http://www.machineslikeus.com/cms/news/flys-small-brain-may-benefit-humans Mark Vision/Slogan -- Friendliness: The Ice-9 of Ethics and Ultimate in Self-Interest --- agi Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: http://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=98558129-0bdb63 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Fwd: [agi] Instead of an AGI Textbook
BTW I improved the hierarchical organization of the TOC a bit, to remove the impression that it's just a random grab-bag of topics... http://www.agiri.org/wiki/Instead_of_an_AGI_Textbook ben --- agi Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: http://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=98558129-0bdb63 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
[agi] META: email format (was Why Hugo de Garis is WRONG!)
Hi Mark, Could you *please* not send HTML email? Ignoring that it is generally considered poor netiquette, and for good reason, it frequently gets turned into barely readable hash by even the most modern email clients. I am using Mail.app 2.0 on OSX 10.5 which handles rendering better than most, and most HTML email is *still* generally rendered as far uglier and less readable than plaintext email. Given that HTML email does not add anything substantive could we please stick to plaintext for the sake of communication? Thanks, J. Andrew Rogers On Mar 26, 2008, at 11:37 AM, Mark Waser wrote: Before swatting at one of those pesky flies that come out as the days lengthen and the temperature rises, one should probably think twice. A University of Missouri researcher has found, through the study of Drosophila (a type of fruit fly), that by manipulating levels of certain compounds associated with the circuitry of the brain, key genes related to memory can be isolated and tested. The results of the study may benefit human patients suffering from Parkinson's disease and could eventually lead to discoveries in the treatment of depression. http://www.machineslikeus.com/cms/news/flys-small-brain-may-benefit-humans Mark Vision/Slogan -- Friendliness: The Ice-9 of Ethics and Ultimate in Self-Interest agi | Archives | Modify Your Subscription --- agi Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: http://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=98558129-0bdb63 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: Mark Launches Singularity :-) WAS Re: [agi] Microsoft Launches Singularity
:-) Now that is *funny* -- and polite -- especially after said ASCII diagrams got so badly mangled (and I got flamed for using HTML e-mail -- which is even more humorous ;-) - Original Message - From: Chris Petersen To: agi@v2.listbox.com Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 3:52 AM Subject: Re: Mark Launches Singularity :-) WAS Re: [agi] Microsoft Launches Singularity Mentifex called; it wants its ASCII diagrams back. -Chris -- agi | Archives | Modify Your Subscription --- agi Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: http://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=98558129-0bdb63 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] META: email format (was Why Hugo de Garis is WRONG!)
J. Andrew Rogers wrote: Hi Mark, Could you *please* not send HTML email? Ignoring that it is generally considered poor netiquette, and for good reason, it frequently gets turned into barely readable hash by even the most modern email clients. I am using Mail.app 2.0 on OSX 10.5 which handles rendering better than most, and most HTML email is *still* generally rendered as far uglier and less readable than plaintext email. Given that HTML email does not add anything substantive could we please stick to plaintext for the sake of communication? Thanks, J. Andrew Rogers On Mar 26, 2008, at 11:37 AM, Mark Waser wrote: Before swatting at one of those pesky flies that come out as the days lengthen and the temperature rises, one should probably think twice. A University of Missouri researcher has found, through the study of Drosophila (a type of fruit fly), that by manipulating levels of certain compounds associated with the circuitry of the brain, key genes related to memory can be isolated and tested. The results of the study may benefit human patients suffering from Parkinson's disease and could eventually lead to discoveries in the treatment of depression. http://www.machineslikeus.com/cms/news/flys-small-brain-may-benefit-humans Mark Vision/Slogan -- Friendliness: The Ice-9 of Ethics and Ultimate in Self-Interest agi | Archives | Modify Your Subscription I suspect that he's using a webmail client of some sort. The body of his message is, essentially, text. It's only a couple of buttons(?) in the footer that are clearly intentionally html, and he probably doesn't add them. So my guess is that his mail client is wrapping his e-mail in an html frame of some sort and sticking, probably, advertisements at the bottom. (I screen remote images out of e-mail, so I don't really know. This is the part I'm talking about: table border=3D0 cellspacing=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 width=3D100% styl= e=3Dbackground-color:#fff bgcolor=3D#ff tr td padding=3D4px font color=3Dblack size=3D1 face=3Dhelvetica, sans-serif; strongagi/strong | a style=3Dtext-decoration:none;color:#669933= ;border-bottom: 1px solid #44 href=3Dhttp://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=3Dnow; title=3DGo to ar= chives for agiArchives/a a border=3D0 style=3Dtext-decoration:none;color:#669933 href=3Dhttp:/= /www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ title=3DRSS feed for agiimg b= order=3D0 src=3Dhttps://www.listbox.com/images/feed-icon-10x10.jpg;/a | a style=3Dtext-decoration:none;color:#669933;border-bottom: 1px solid = #44 href=3Dhttp://www.listbox.com/member/?D232072D98557= 868-5cf207 title=3DModify/a Your Subscriptiontd valign=3Dtop align=3Drighta style=3Dborder-bot= tom:none; href=3Dhttp://www.listbox.com; img src=3Dhttps://www.listbox.com/images/listbox-logo-small.jpg; title=3DPowered by Listbox border=3D0 //a/td That said, I agree with you about it's inadvisability. But often the sender isn't even aware of what impression he is making. I've given up on refusing to accept html e-mail. Too many people don't even know what you're talking about. But I definitely won't accept remote images or such. Such things are dangerous. /font /td /tr /table --- agi Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: http://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=98558129-0bdb63 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
I know, I KNOW :-) WAS Re: [agi] The Effect of Application of an Idea
First a riddle: What can be all learning algorithms, but is none? A human being! --- agi Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: http://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=98558129-0bdb63 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: I know, I KNOW :-) WAS Re: [agi] The Effect of Application of an Idea
On 26/03/2008, Mark Waser [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: First a riddle: What can be all learning algorithms, but is none? A human being! Well my answer was a common PC, which I hope is more illuminating because we know it well. But human being works, as does any future AI design, as far as I am concerned. Will Pearson --- agi Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: http://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=98558129-0bdb63 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
[agi] Instead_of_an_AGI_Textbook Challenge !!
OK... I just burned an hour inserting more links and content into http://www.agiri.org/wiki/Instead_of_an_AGI_Textbook I'm burnt out on it for a while, there's too much other stuff on my plate However, I have a challenge for y'all There are something like 400 people subscribed to this list... If 25 of you spend 30 minutes each, during the next week, adding relevant content to the non-textbook wiki page ... then at the end of the week we will have a pretty nice knowledge resource for newbies to AGI. And we will probably all learn something from following up each others' references ... And then I'll save a lot of time during the next year, because when someone emails me and asks me what they should read to get up to speed on the general thinking in the AGI field, I'll just point them to the non-textbook ;-) -- Ben -- Ben Goertzel, PhD CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC Director of Research, SIAI [EMAIL PROTECTED] If men cease to believe that they will one day become gods then they will surely become worms. -- Henry Miller --- agi Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: http://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=98558129-0bdb63 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
[agi] Re: Instead_of_an_AGI_Textbook Challenge !!
Ah, one more note... Due to its location on the AGIRI wiki, the Instead_of_an_AGI_Textbook automatically links into the Mind Ontology http://www.agiri.org/wiki/Mind_Ontology that I created in a fit of mania one weekend a couple years ago. So, just remember that if you decide to add content to the non-textbook, rather than just links, you can link it into the Mind Ontology, expand the Mind Ontology, etc. The idea of the Mind Ontology was to create a unified common vocabulary for AGI thinkers/researchers... It didn't really work because almost no one paid attention, but it was a sort of fun weekend ;-) -- Ben On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 10:43 PM, Ben Goertzel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: OK... I just burned an hour inserting more links and content into http://www.agiri.org/wiki/Instead_of_an_AGI_Textbook I'm burnt out on it for a while, there's too much other stuff on my plate However, I have a challenge for y'all There are something like 400 people subscribed to this list... If 25 of you spend 30 minutes each, during the next week, adding relevant content to the non-textbook wiki page ... then at the end of the week we will have a pretty nice knowledge resource for newbies to AGI. And we will probably all learn something from following up each others' references ... And then I'll save a lot of time during the next year, because when someone emails me and asks me what they should read to get up to speed on the general thinking in the AGI field, I'll just point them to the non-textbook ;-) -- Ben -- Ben Goertzel, PhD CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC Director of Research, SIAI [EMAIL PROTECTED] If men cease to believe that they will one day become gods then they will surely become worms. -- Henry Miller -- Ben Goertzel, PhD CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC Director of Research, SIAI [EMAIL PROTECTED] If men cease to believe that they will one day become gods then they will surely become worms. -- Henry Miller --- agi Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: http://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=98558129-0bdb63 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] Re: Instead_of_an_AGI_Textbook Challenge !!
Hey Ben, I really appreciate this idea. I recently became very interested in the Singularity, AI, etc. I very much enjoy the discussions that go on in these threads, but rarely know what is going on. I'm really hoping to learn everything there is to know from the ground up. Matt On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 9:46 PM, Ben Goertzel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ah, one more note... Due to its location on the AGIRI wiki, the Instead_of_an_AGI_Textbook automatically links into the Mind Ontology http://www.agiri.org/wiki/Mind_Ontology that I created in a fit of mania one weekend a couple years ago. So, just remember that if you decide to add content to the non-textbook, rather than just links, you can link it into the Mind Ontology, expand the Mind Ontology, etc. The idea of the Mind Ontology was to create a unified common vocabulary for AGI thinkers/researchers... It didn't really work because almost no one paid attention, but it was a sort of fun weekend ;-) -- Ben On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 10:43 PM, Ben Goertzel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: OK... I just burned an hour inserting more links and content into http://www.agiri.org/wiki/Instead_of_an_AGI_Textbook I'm burnt out on it for a while, there's too much other stuff on my plate However, I have a challenge for y'all There are something like 400 people subscribed to this list... If 25 of you spend 30 minutes each, during the next week, adding relevant content to the non-textbook wiki page ... then at the end of the week we will have a pretty nice knowledge resource for newbies to AGI. And we will probably all learn something from following up each others' references ... And then I'll save a lot of time during the next year, because when someone emails me and asks me what they should read to get up to speed on the general thinking in the AGI field, I'll just point them to the non-textbook ;-) -- Ben -- Ben Goertzel, PhD CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC Director of Research, SIAI [EMAIL PROTECTED] If men cease to believe that they will one day become gods then they will surely become worms. -- Henry Miller -- Ben Goertzel, PhD CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC Director of Research, SIAI [EMAIL PROTECTED] If men cease to believe that they will one day become gods then they will surely become worms. -- Henry Miller --- agi Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: http://www.listbox.com/member/?; Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com --- agi Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: http://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=98558129-0bdb63 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] Instead_of_an_AGI_Textbook Challenge !!
Thanks Ben for leaving a placeholder for Fluid Construction Grammar. I've copied over the Wikipedia article for which I wrote most of the content. Cheers. -Steve Stephen L. Reed Artificial Intelligence Researcher http://texai.org/blog http://texai.org 3008 Oak Crest Ave. Austin, Texas, USA 78704 512.791.7860 - Original Message From: Ben Goertzel [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: agi@v2.listbox.com Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 9:43:35 PM Subject: [agi] Instead_of_an_AGI_Textbook Challenge !! OK... I just burned an hour inserting more links and content into http://www.agiri.org/wiki/Instead_of_an_AGI_Textbook I'm burnt out on it for a while, there's too much other stuff on my plate However, I have a challenge for y'all There are something like 400 people subscribed to this list... If 25 of you spend 30 minutes each, during the next week, adding relevant content to the non-textbook wiki page ... then at the end of the week we will have a pretty nice knowledge resource for newbies to AGI. And we will probably all learn something from following up each others' references ... And then I'll save a lot of time during the next year, because when someone emails me and asks me what they should read to get up to speed on the general thinking in the AGI field, I'll just point them to the non-textbook ;-) -- Ben -- Ben Goertzel, PhD CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC Director of Research, SIAI [EMAIL PROTECTED] If men cease to believe that they will one day become gods then they will surely become worms. -- Henry Miller --- agi Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: http://www.listbox.com/member/?; Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping --- agi Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: http://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=98558129-0bdb63 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
RE: [agi] Microsoft Launches Singularity
From: Charles D Hixson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] I don't think a General Intelligence could be built entirely out of narrow AI components, but it might well be a relatively trivial add-on. Just consider how much of human intelligence is demonstrably narrow AI (well, not artificial, but you know what I mean). Object recognition, e.g. Then start trying to guess how much of the part that we can't prove a classification for is likely to be a narrow intelligence component. In my estimation (without factual backing) less than 0.001 of our intelligence is General Intellignece, possibly much less. I agree that it may be 1%. Also from what I've read with brain atrophy cases is that a typical human brain may be able to function relatively normally with 10% of its mass if atrophy is applied over time. I'm not sure of the distinction that you are making between consciousness and self-awareness, but even most complex narrow-AI applications require at least rudimentary self awareness. In fact, one could argue that all object oriented programming with inheritance has rudimentary self awareness (called this in many languages, but in others called self). This may be too rudimentary, but it's my feeling that it's an actual model(implementation?) of what the concept of self has evolved from. Consciousness and awareness are two functions that I was separating out. The programming language this and self are particular to class instances right and can be at the root of the hierarchy tree but there are many, many this's in a large OO application. A collective group could be considered some sort of self-awareness this is true and it could be fleshed out and expanded upon. What I have been exploring though is whether conscious, awareness, etc. have to be present for a general intelligence. The trend is to include them. As to an AGI not being conscious I'd need to see a definition of your terms, because otherwise I've *got* to presume that we have radically different definitions. To me an AGI would not only need to be aware of itself, but also to be aware of aspects of it's environment that it could effect changes in, And of the difference between them, though that might well be learned. (Zen: Who is the master who makes the grass green?, and a few other koans when solved imply that in humans the distinction between internal and external is a learned response.) Perhaps the diagnostic characteristic of an AGI is that it CAN learn that kind of thing. Perhaps not, too. I can imagine a narrow AI that was designed to plug into different bodies, and in each case learn the distinction between itself and the environment before proceeding with its assignment. I'm not sure it's possible, but I can imagine it. AGI per se may be defined as a lifelike intelligent entity requiring brain related things like consciousness. In my mind, I am thinking of general intelligence without the difficult task of building consciousness. You could argue a rock has some sort of consciousness. I'm thinking intelligence is a sort of self-contained entity that depends upon the state, structure, complexity and potential of its contained data and representation. Intelligence would be related to an energy transfer needed to extract a structured data set from a structured data superset. The structured data set (a query) would have a morphic chain relationship to the structure of the stored data and the energy required to get it would be proportional to the intelligence. Lower energy expenditure across query types implies higher intelligence related to those queries. The morphic chain relationship basically is a subset of a morphism mapping graph. Better intelligence means solving the graph and applying optimizing techniques based on parameters. Measurement of intelligence (the energy) would basically be counting bit flips on queries related to query structure and bit count. Knowledge optimization such as self organizing and optimizing morphism graphs naturally affect the potential energy and things like having this reorganize based on query is all part of it. But from what I gather intelligence is just a bit and time (or state) relationship between sets of bits - that is for a digital based intelligence. I don't know if an analog based intelligence would have similar mathematical structure or not...I suppose that when you boil it down they'll be particle wave duality issues :) John --- agi Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: http://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=98558129-0bdb63 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
