RE: [agi] Posting Strategies - A Gentle Reminder
I kind of disagree with this attitude, too conformist and over assuming. I've seen too many flaked out freakazoids have tiny grains of absolute brilliance sprinkled throughout their time wasting mass of obtruse utterings. Yeah you can't waste too much time and have to gain something with the interactions and shouldn't distract others. But a lot of mainstream research and ideas are just plain wrong or are wasting atoms.. especially in a real world software ecosystem compared to academic derivations. The two diverge in many ways. Also irrationality and genius are many times the same thing or overlap significantly ;]. John From: Brad Paulsen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 5:17 AM To: agi@v2.listbox.com Subject: [agi] Posting Strategies - A Gentle Reminder Dear Fellow AGI List Members: Just thought I'd remind the good members of this list about some strategies for dealing with certain types of postings. Unfortunately, the field of AI/AGI is one of those areas where anybody with a pulse and a brain thinks they can design a program that thinks. Must be easy, right? I mean, I can do it so how hard can it be to put me in a can? Well, that's what some very smart people in the 1940's, '50's and into the 1960's thought. They were wrong. Most of them now admit it. So, on AI-related lists, we have to be very careful about the kinds of conversations on which we spend our valuable time. Here are some guidelines. I realize most people here know this stuff already. This is just a gentle reminder. If a posting makes grandiose claims, is dismissive of mainstream research, techniques, and institutions or the author claims to have special knowledge that has apparently been missed (or dismissed) by all of the brilliant scientific/technical minds who go to their jobs at major corporations and universities every day (and are paid for doing so), and also by every Nobel Laureate for the last 20 years, this posting should be ignored. DO NOT RESPOND to these types of postings: positively or negatively. The poster is, obviously, either irrational or one of the greatest minds of our time. In the former case, you know they're full of it, I know they're full of it, but they will NEVER admit that. You will never win an argument with an irrational individual. In the latter case, stop and ask yourself: Why is somebody that fantastically smart posting to this mailing list? He or she is, obviously, smarter than everyone here. Why does he/she need us to validate his or her accomplishments/knowledge by posting on this list? He or she should have better things to do and, besides, we probably wouldn't be able to understand (appreciate) his/her genius anyhow. The only way to deal with postings like this is to IGNORE THEM. Don't rise to the bait. Like a bad cold, they will be irritating for a while, but they will, eventually, go away. Cheers, Brad _ agi | http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now Archives http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ | http://www.listbox.com/member/?; Modify Your Subscription http://www.listbox.com --- agi Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: http://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=101455710-f059c4 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] Posting Strategies - A Gentle Reminder
John, You are absolutely right. People should simply delete the parts of postings that they think have no value, leaving just the tiny grain(s) of absolute brilliance, and add whatever they can to them for everyone's benefit. One man's obtuse utterings are sometimes another man's grains of absolute brilliance. Thanks for your comment. Steve Richfield == On 4/15/08, John G. Rose [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I kind of disagree with this attitude, too conformist and over assuming. I've seen too many flaked out freakazoids have tiny grains of absolute brilliance sprinkled throughout their time wasting mass of obtruse utterings. Yeah you can't waste too much time and have to gain something with the interactions and shouldn't distract others. But a lot of mainstream research and ideas are just plain wrong or are wasting atoms.. especially in a real world software ecosystem compared to academic derivations. The two diverge in many ways. Also irrationality and genius are many times the same thing or overlap significantly ;]. John *From:* Brad Paulsen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *Sent:* Monday, April 14, 2008 5:17 AM *To:* agi@v2.listbox.com *Subject:* [agi] Posting Strategies - A Gentle Reminder Dear Fellow AGI List Members: Just thought I'd remind the good members of this list about some strategies for dealing with certain types of postings. Unfortunately, the field of AI/AGI is one of those areas where anybody with a pulse and a brain thinks they can design a program that thinks. Must be easy, right? I mean, I can do it so how hard can it be to put me in a can? Well, that's what some very smart people in the 1940's, '50's and into the 1960's thought. They were wrong. Most of them now admit it. So, on AI-related lists, we have to be very careful about the kinds of conversations on which we spend our valuable time. Here are some guidelines. I realize most people here know this stuff already. This is just a gentle reminder. If a posting makes grandiose claims, is dismissive of mainstream research, techniques, and institutions or the author claims to have special knowledge that has apparently been missed (or dismissed) by all of the brilliant scientific/technical minds who go to their jobs at major corporations and universities every day (and are paid for doing so), and also by every Nobel Laureate for the last 20 years, this posting should be ignored. DO NOT RESPOND to these types of postings: positively or negatively. The poster is, obviously, either irrational or one of the greatest minds of our time. In the former case, you know they're full of it, I know they're full of it, but they will NEVER admit that. You will never win an argument with an irrational individual. In the latter case, stop and ask yourself: Why is somebody that fantastically smart posting to this mailing list? He or she is, obviously, smarter than everyone here. Why does he/she need us to validate his or her accomplishments/knowledge by posting on this list? He or she should have better things to do and, besides, we probably wouldn't be able to understand (appreciate) his/her genius anyhow. The only way to deal with postings like this is to IGNORE THEM. Don't rise to the bait. Like a bad cold, they will be irritating for a while, but they will, eventually, go away. Cheers, Brad -- *agi* | Archives http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/| Modifyhttp://www.listbox.com/member/?;Your Subscription http://www.listbox.com/ -- *agi* | Archives http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ | Modifyhttp://www.listbox.com/member/?;Your Subscription http://www.listbox.com/ --- agi Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: http://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=101455710-f059c4 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
RE: [agi] Posting Strategies - A Gentle Reminder
Sure. And sometimes we all need that reassuring constructive criticism when we have that great idea and blurt it out a little too soon before doing some background reading like - Hey guys! I have this great idea for creating AGI where you stare into the sun and blink code in the Whirl programming language autonomically while astral projecting back into the primordial ooze! Reply: Ahh dude. seek help! John From: Steve Richfield [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2008 5:45 PM To: agi@v2.listbox.com Subject: Re: [agi] Posting Strategies - A Gentle Reminder John, You are absolutely right. People should simply delete the parts of postings that they think have no value, leaving just the tiny grain(s) of absolute brilliance, and add whatever they can to them for everyone's benefit. One man's obtuse utterings are sometimes another man's grains of absolute brilliance. Thanks for your comment. Steve Richfield == On 4/15/08, John G. Rose [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I kind of disagree with this attitude, too conformist and over assuming. I've seen too many flaked out freakazoids have tiny grains of absolute brilliance sprinkled throughout their time wasting mass of obtruse utterings. Yeah you can't waste too much time and have to gain something with the interactions and shouldn't distract others. But a lot of mainstream research and ideas are just plain wrong or are wasting atoms.. especially in a real world software ecosystem compared to academic derivations. The two diverge in many ways. Also irrationality and genius are many times the same thing or overlap significantly ;]. John From: Brad Paulsen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 5:17 AM To: agi@v2.listbox.com Subject: [agi] Posting Strategies - A Gentle Reminder Dear Fellow AGI List Members: Just thought I'd remind the good members of this list about some strategies for dealing with certain types of postings. Unfortunately, the field of AI/AGI is one of those areas where anybody with a pulse and a brain thinks they can design a program that thinks. Must be easy, right? I mean, I can do it so how hard can it be to put me in a can? Well, that's what some very smart people in the 1940's, '50's and into the 1960's thought. They were wrong. Most of them now admit it. So, on AI-related lists, we have to be very careful about the kinds of conversations on which we spend our valuable time. Here are some guidelines. I realize most people here know this stuff already. This is just a gentle reminder. If a posting makes grandiose claims, is dismissive of mainstream research, techniques, and institutions or the author claims to have special knowledge that has apparently been missed (or dismissed) by all of the brilliant scientific/technical minds who go to their jobs at major corporations and universities every day (and are paid for doing so), and also by every Nobel Laureate for the last 20 years, this posting should be ignored. DO NOT RESPOND to these types of postings: positively or negatively. The poster is, obviously, either irrational or one of the greatest minds of our time. In the former case, you know they're full of it, I know they're full of it, but they will NEVER admit that. You will never win an argument with an irrational individual. In the latter case, stop and ask yourself: Why is somebody that fantastically smart posting to this mailing list? He or she is, obviously, smarter than everyone here. Why does he/she need us to validate his or her accomplishments/knowledge by posting on this list? He or she should have better things to do and, besides, we probably wouldn't be able to understand (appreciate) his/her genius anyhow. The only way to deal with postings like this is to IGNORE THEM. Don't rise to the bait. Like a bad cold, they will be irritating for a while, but they will, eventually, go away. Cheers, Brad _ agi | http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now Archives http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Error! Filename not specified.| http://www.listbox.com/member/?; Modify Your Subscription http://www.listbox.com/ Error! Filename not specified. _ agi | http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now Archives http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Error! Filename not specified.| http://www.listbox.com/member/?; Modify Your Subscription http://www.listbox.com/ Error! Filename not specified. _ agi | http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now Archives http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ | http://www.listbox.com/member/?; Modify Your Subscription http://www.listbox.com --- agi Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: http://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=101455710
[agi] Posting Strategies - A Gentle Reminder
Dear Fellow AGI List Members: Just thought I'd remind the good members of this list about some strategies for dealing with certain types of postings. Unfortunately, the field of AI/AGI is one of those areas where anybody with a pulse and a brain thinks they can design a program that thinks. Must be easy, right? I mean, I can do it so how hard can it be to put me in a can? Well, that's what some very smart people in the 1940's, '50's and into the 1960's thought. They were wrong. Most of them now admit it. So, on AI-related lists, we have to be very careful about the kinds of conversations on which we spend our valuable time. Here are some guidelines. I realize most people here know this stuff already. This is just a gentle reminder. If a posting makes grandiose claims, is dismissive of mainstream research, techniques, and institutions or the author claims to have special knowledge that has apparently been missed (or dismissed) by all of the brilliant scientific/technical minds who go to their jobs at major corporations and universities every day (and are paid for doing so), and also by every Nobel Laureate for the last 20 years, this posting should be ignored. DO NOT RESPOND to these types of postings: positively or negatively. The poster is, obviously, either irrational or one of the greatest minds of our time. In the former case, you know they're full of it, I know they're full of it, but they will NEVER admit that. You will never win an argument with an irrational individual. In the latter case, stop and ask yourself: Why is somebody that fantastically smart posting to this mailing list? He or she is, obviously, smarter than everyone here. Why does he/she need us to validate his or her accomplishments/knowledge by posting on this list? He or she should have better things to do and, besides, we probably wouldn't be able to understand (appreciate) his/her genius anyhow. The only way to deal with postings like this is to IGNORE THEM. Don't rise to the bait. Like a bad cold, they will be irritating for a while, but they will, eventually, go away. Cheers, Brad --- agi Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: http://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=98558129-0bdb63 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] Posting Strategies - A Gentle Reminder
Good advice. There are of course sometimes people who are ahead of the field, but in conversation you'll usually find that the genuine inovators have a deep - bordering on obsessive - knowledge of the field that they're working in and are willing to demonstrate/test their claims to anyone even remotely interested. On 14/04/2008, Brad Paulsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Fellow AGI List Members: Just thought I'd remind the good members of this list about some strategies for dealing with certain types of postings. Unfortunately, the field of AI/AGI is one of those areas where anybody with a pulse and a brain thinks they can design a program that thinks. Must be easy, right? I mean, I can do it so how hard can it be to put me in a can? Well, that's what some very smart people in the 1940's, '50's and into the 1960's thought. They were wrong. Most of them now admit it. So, on AI-related lists, we have to be very careful about the kinds of conversations on which we spend our valuable time. Here are some guidelines. I realize most people here know this stuff already. This is just a gentle reminder. If a posting makes grandiose claims, is dismissive of mainstream research, techniques, and institutions or the author claims to have special knowledge that has apparently been missed (or dismissed) by all of the brilliant scientific/technical minds who go to their jobs at major corporations and universities every day (and are paid for doing so), and also by every Nobel Laureate for the last 20 years, this posting should be ignored. DO NOT RESPOND to these types of postings: positively or negatively. The poster is, obviously, either irrational or one of the greatest minds of our time. In the former case, you know they're full of it, I know they're full of it, but they will NEVER admit that. You will never win an argument with an irrational individual. In the latter case, stop and ask yourself: Why is somebody that fantastically smart posting to this mailing list? He or she is, obviously, smarter than everyone here. Why does he/she need us to validate his or her accomplishments/knowledge by posting on this list? He or she should have better things to do and, besides, we probably wouldn't be able to understand (appreciate) his/her genius anyhow. The only way to deal with postings like this is to IGNORE THEM. Don't rise to the bait. Like a bad cold, they will be irritating for a while, but they will, eventually, go away. Cheers, Brad -- *agi* | Archives http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ | Modifyhttp://www.listbox.com/member/?;Your Subscription http://www.listbox.com --- agi Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: http://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=98558129-0bdb63 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] Posting Strategies - A Gentle Reminder
Bob Mottram writes: Good advice. There are of course sometimes people who are ahead of the field, Like Ben Goertzel (glad to send him a referral recently from South Africa on the OpenCog list :-) but in conversation you'll usually find that the genuine inovators have a deep - bordering on obsessive - knowledge of the field that they're working in and are willing to demonstrate/test their claims http://mind.sourceforge.net/Mind.html has just been updated to demonstrate the claim that AI has been solved. to anyone even remotely interested. Arthur -- http://mentifex.virtualentity.com/mind4th.html http://mentifex.virtualentity.com/m4thuser.html --- agi Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: http://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=98558129-0bdb63 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] Posting Strategies - A Gentle Reminder
These things of course require a balance. In many academic or corporate fora, radical innovation is frowned upon so profoundly (in spite of sometimes being praised and desired, on the surface, but in a confused and not fully sincere way), that it's continually necessary to remind people of the need to open their minds and consider the possibility that some of their assumptions are wrong. OTOH, in **this** forum, we have a lot of openness and open-mindedness, which is great ... but the downside is, people who THINK they have radical new insights but actually don't, tend to get a LOT of attention, often to the detriment of more interesting yet less radical on the surface discussions. I do find that most posters on this list seem to have put a lot of thought (as well as a lot of feeling) into their ideas and opinions. However, it's frustrating when people re-tread issues over and over in a way that demonstrates they've never taken the trouble to carefully study what's been done before. I think it can often be super-valuable to approach some issue afresh, without studying the literature first -- so as to get a brand-new view. But then, before venting one's ideas in a public forum, one should check one's ideas against the literature (in the idea-validation phase .. after the idea-generation phase) to see whether they're original, whether they're contradicted by well-thought-out arguments, etc. -- Ben G -- Ben On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 9:54 AM, Bob Mottram [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Good advice. There are of course sometimes people who are ahead of the field, but in conversation you'll usually find that the genuine inovators have a deep - bordering on obsessive - knowledge of the field that they're working in and are willing to demonstrate/test their claims to anyone even remotely interested. On 14/04/2008, Brad Paulsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Fellow AGI List Members: Just thought I'd remind the good members of this list about some strategies for dealing with certain types of postings. Unfortunately, the field of AI/AGI is one of those areas where anybody with a pulse and a brain thinks they can design a program that thinks. Must be easy, right? I mean, I can do it so how hard can it be to put me in a can? Well, that's what some very smart people in the 1940's, '50's and into the 1960's thought. They were wrong. Most of them now admit it. So, on AI-related lists, we have to be very careful about the kinds of conversations on which we spend our valuable time. Here are some guidelines. I realize most people here know this stuff already. This is just a gentle reminder. If a posting makes grandiose claims, is dismissive of mainstream research, techniques, and institutions or the author claims to have special knowledge that has apparently been missed (or dismissed) by all of the brilliant scientific/technical minds who go to their jobs at major corporations and universities every day (and are paid for doing so), and also by every Nobel Laureate for the last 20 years, this posting should be ignored. DO NOT RESPOND to these types of postings: positively or negatively. The poster is, obviously, either irrational or one of the greatest minds of our time. In the former case, you know they're full of it, I know they're full of it, but they will NEVER admit that. You will never win an argument with an irrational individual. In the latter case, stop and ask yourself: Why is somebody that fantastically smart posting to this mailing list? He or she is, obviously, smarter than everyone here. Why does he/she need us to validate his or her accomplishments/knowledge by posting on this list? He or she should have better things to do and, besides, we probably wouldn't be able to understand (appreciate) his/her genius anyhow. The only way to deal with postings like this is to IGNORE THEM. Don't rise to the bait. Like a bad cold, they will be irritating for a while, but they will, eventually, go away. Cheers, Brad agi | Archives | Modify Your Subscription agi | Archives | Modify Your Subscription -- Ben Goertzel, PhD CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC Director of Research, SIAI [EMAIL PROTECTED] If men cease to believe that they will one day become gods then they will surely become worms. -- Henry Miller --- agi Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: http://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=98558129-0bdb63 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
