BUS: humble agoran farmer knows the drill

[Madrid via agora-business]

the lists are kinda dead so

i intend to declare apathy, specifying myself

Re: BUS: humble agoran farmer knows the drill

[ais523 via agora-business]

On Sun, 2022-04-17 at 13:23 +0200, Madrid via agora-business wrote:
> the lists are kinda dead so
> 
> i intend to declare apathy, specifying myself

It's not just Agora, other online games I play seem kind-of dead as
well. It may be related to the Easter holidays.

Also, I object to the above intent.

-- 
ais523

BUS: Re: OFF: [Promotor] Distribution of Proposals 8667-8668

[Madrid via agora-business]

I vote FOR all of these Proposals

On Sunday, April 17, 2022, Aspen via agora-official <
agora-offic...@agoranomic.org> wrote:

> PROMOTOR'S REPORT AS OF RIGHT NOW
>
> I hereby distribute each listed proposal, initiating a referendum on it,
> and removing it from the proposal pool. For this decision, the vote
> collector
> is the Assessor, the quorum is 5, the voting method is AI-majority, and the
> valid options are FOR and AGAINST (PRESENT is also a valid vote, as are
> conditional votes).
>
> ID  Author(s)   AITitle
> 
> ---
> 8667&   G.  1.0   welcome fix
> 8668&   G.  1.0   a light on darkness
>
>
> The proposal pool contains the following proposals:
>
> Author(s)   AITitle
> 
> ---
> Jason   1.7   No finger pointing on behalf
>
>
> Legend: * : Democratic proposal.
> & : Ordinary proposal.
> ~ : Unsponsored proposal.
>
> The full text of the aforementioned proposal(s) is included below. Where
> the information shown below differs from the information shown above,
> the information shown above shall control.
>
> //
> ID: 8667
> Title: welcome fix
> Adoption index: 1.0
> Author: G.
> Co-author(s):
>
>
> Amend Rule 2499 (Welcome Packages) by replacing:
> Any player CAN grant
> with:
> Any player CAN, by announcement, grant
>
> //
> ID: 8668
> Title: a light on darkness
> Adoption index: 1.0
> Author: G.
> Co-author(s):
>
>
> Repeal Rule 2617 (Defense Against the Dark Arts).
>
> //
> Title: No finger pointing on behalf
> Adoption index: 1.7
> Author: Jason
> Co-author(s):
>
>
> Amend Rule 2478 by replacing "A player CAN by announcement Point eir
> Finger" with "A player, acting as emself, CAN by announcement Point eir
> Finger".
>
> //
>

Re: BUS: humble agoran farmer knows the drill

[Jason Cobb via agora-business]

On 4/17/22 07:23, Madrid via agora-business wrote:
> the lists are kinda dead so
>
> i intend to declare apathy, specifying myself


I object.

-- 
Jason Cobb

Assessor, Rulekeepor, S​tonemason

BUS: Pending [attn. Treasuror, Promotor]

[Jason Cobb via agora-business]

I pay a fee of one pendant to cause the proposal entitled "No finger
pointing on behalf" that is currently in the Proposal Pool to become
pending.

-- 
Jason Cobb

Assessor, Rulekeepor, S​tonemason

BUS: Re: OFF: [Promotor] Distribution of Proposals 8667-8668

[Jason Cobb via agora-business]

On 4/17/22 07:34, Aspen via agora-official wrote:
> 8667&   G.  1.0   welcome fix

FOR


> 8668&   G.  1.0   a light on darkness

FOR

-- 
Jason Cobb

Assessor, Rulekeepor, S​tonemason

(@Rulekeepor) BUS: Re: OFF: [Mad Engineer] Intent to Invent

[ais523 via agora-business]

On Sun, 2022-04-10 at 13:00 +0100, ais523 via agora-official wrote:
> The Device is on.
> 
> I intend, with Agoran Consent, to cause rule 2655 to amend the rule
> "The Device" by appending the following as a list item to the "When
> the device is on:" list:
> {{{
>When a Device wins an election, e is installed into the associated
>office and the election ends.
> }}}
> [Going with something of my own this week. I can't think of a way
> that a Device could win an election yet, but getting the Device to
> hold an office seems like an interesting long-term project.]

With Agoran Consent, I do so. (Jason supported; there were no
objections.)

-- 
ais523
Mad Engineer

(@Arbitor) BUS: Re: OFF: [CFJ 3957&3958, ais523] (indictment intent on @jaun for support/objections) resolving fingers for the forbidden

[ais523 via agora-business]

On Mon, 2022-04-11 at 18:16 -0500, secretsnail9 via agora-official wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 11, 2022 at 12:13 PM juan via agora-business <
> agora-business@agoranomic.org> wrote:
> 
> > To formalize this, under all of the preceding arguments, I CFJ the
> > following two propositions:
> > 
> > 1. "If the proposal 'Don't Vote For Me' were to be ADOPTED, it would be
> > the officer who effected its adoption that would commit the crime of
> > Engaging in Forbidden Arts."
> 
> I number the above CFJ 3957 and assign it to ais523.
> 
> > 2. "If the proposal 'Don't Vote For Me' were to be ADOPTED, its actions
> > would be performed by no player, and in that case no one would be
> > commiting the crime of Engaging in Forbidden Arts."
> 
> I number the above CFJ 3958 and assign it to ais523.
> 
> > I recommend the previous two CFJs are appointed to the same judge. Also
> > note that, if one could ask questions in a CFJ, I would have asked "who
> > performs the actions in an ADOPTED proposal?".

First, here's the current wording of rule 2617:
{{{
  An action is forbidden if it would, upon its successful
  occurrence, cause Agora to be ossified or to cease to exist.
  
  Publicly attempting a forbidden action is PROHIBITED, and is the
  Class-4 Crime of Engaging in Forbidden Arts.
}}}
and some relevant excerpts from rule 106:
{{{
  When a referendum on a proposal is resolved, if the outcome is
  ADOPTED, then the proposal in question is adopted, its power is
  set to the minimum of four and its adoption index, and it takes
  effect. [...] When a proposal takes effect, the proposal applies
  the changes that it specifies, except as prohibited by other
  rules. [...] Except insofar as the actions performed by a
  proposal happen one after another, rather than simultaneously, a
  proposal's effect is instantaneous. 
}}}
and 208:
{{{
  The vote collector for an unresolved Agoran decision CAN resolve
  it by announcement, indicating the outcome.
}}}

In order to work out whether rule 2617 is violated, we need to work out
"who is performing the action" (which is what the caller seems to be
most interested in), but also "what are the actions that are being
performed", "which of those actions are forbidden".

The ruleset is a little inconsistent in its use of "action". Normally,
when talking about an "action", we're thinking of something that a
person triggers within the game, often via public message; Agorans are
very familiar with phrases like "acting by announcement", "tabled
action", etc.. It's worth doing a survey of how the ruleset uses the
word.

Some rules, like rule 2160 ("A player acting as emself (the deputy) CAN
perform an action ordinarily reserved for an office-holder as if e held
the office [...]") seem to be very clearly using this meaning of an
"action". Likewise, rule 2531 implies that actions are done by persons
("it attempts to levy a fine on a person when that person can't be
established by a preponderance of the evidence to have committed the
action or inaction for which the fine was levied"). And of course, rule
101 defines the entire game of Agora to be about game actions, that are
taken by persons and communicated via fora.

There are other uses. Rule 2471 seems to consider some public
statements to be actions ("A statment is a lie if its publisher either
knew or believed it to be not true at the time e published it (or, in
the case of an action, not to be effective) [...]"); this is in near-
contradiction to rule 2466, which states that sending a message is not
a game action (to resolve this, you need to imagine that a message is a
sort of container that holds actions, rather than the sending of the
message being an action in its own right). The title of rule 2577
envisages most of the basic operations on assets to be actions,
regardless of whether they're being performed by persons (e.g. you can
imagine a rule that revokes assets on a schedule). Rule 2152 defines
basic terms like CANNOT as applying to actions, and yet these affect
things that are not being performed by persons (e.g. if a player CANNOT
lose a particular sort of asset, then a lower-powered rule would be
unable to revoke it on a schedule).

And of course, rule 106 outright talks about a proposal taking actions.
This is pretty a important point to this case, given that the question
is, at least partly, "can a proposal take actions?".

The main conclusion that seems consistent with the rules, therefore, is
that an "action" is something that is done within Agora, typically
having an impact on the gamestate or other properties of the game.
(Rule 2125 makes it clear that actions that don't have an impact on
Agora are still actions, but are mostly ignored by the rules.) Actions
are normally performed by persons, but can be performed by other
entities. (There's an Agoran tradition, known as "pragmatisation", of
trying to ensure that most actions are done by persons; this makes it
less li

(@Assessor) BUS: Re: OFF: [Promotor] Distribution of Proposals 8667-8668

[ais523 via agora-business]

On Sun, 2022-04-17 at 04:34 -0700, Aspen via agora-official wrote:
> ID  Author(s)   AITitle
> ---
I vote as follows:
> 8667&   G.  1.0   welcome fix
FOR
> 8668&   G.  1.0   a light on darkness
FOR; this sort of rule generally does more harm than good, because the
main effect is to tempt people into trying to scam it (and thus it's
more likely to cause than prevent the ossification of Agora)

-- 
ais523

BUS: (@Treasuror, @Notary) Card Purchase and Wealth

[secretsnail9 via agora-business]

I wield the wealth stone.

I join the contract "Lee's Card Shop".

I take the following actions if and only if they all succeed:

{

I transfer R. Lee 4000 coins.

I act on behalf of R. Lee to transfer 1 Win Card from R. Lee to secretsnail.

}

I leave the contract "Lee's Card Shop".
--
secretsnail

(@Avicultor, Treasuror) BUS: Asset shuffling

[ais523 via agora-business]

I pay a fee of 5 boatloads of coins to buy bird food. Then I do the
same thing again.

I grant myself a Justice Card.

-- 
ais523

BUS: (@Referee) A finger pointo

[secretsnail9 via agora-business]

I point a finger at R. Lee for failure to judge CFJ 3956 in a timely
fashion, breaking Rule 591. Likely forgivable as e apparently didn't know
the CFJ was assigned to em.
--
secretsnail

(@Treasuror, CFJ=Arbitor) Re: BUS: Asset shuffling

[ais523 via agora-business]

On Sun, 2022-04-17 at 20:18 +0100, ais523 via agora-business wrote:
> I grant myself a Justice Card.

(Note: this message contains additional actions after the call of the
CFJ.)


I call for judgement on the statement "I CAN grant Aspen a Justice Card
by announcement."

Evidence: the above-quoted message, and:
{{{
I pointed the most Fingers that lead to a Warning/Indictment/CHoJ last
week (two Unjustified Gesticulations were resolved this way last
Sunday; the previous such Finger resolution was the Sunday previous).
Additionally, I am Compliance-focused. I didn't grant myself a Justice
Card using my focus earlier this month, nor a Justice Card using
finger-point resolutions earlier this week.
}}}

Arguments:
{{{
The rules state that I CAN perform the action of granting myself a
Justice Card by announcement. Rule 2624 says that I CAN do this. Rule
2478 also says that I CAN do this. There's no contradiction there;
rather, the rules are in agreement with each other, and as such I CAN
do it.

They are somewhat less clear, however, about what the consequences of
doing so are. Rule 2624 permits the action to be performed once per
month. Rule 2478 is a little ambiguous, but most people interpret it as
allowing the action to be performed once per relevant week. Are these
rules contradicting each other with regards to how often the action can
be performed? Or are they defining two different actions? If so, which
one did I take? (Both?) There doesn't seem to be a requirement in the
rules to state which rule permits me to take a particular action, in
order to perform it by announcement.

On the other hand, rule 2624 is a little more general than rule 2478
when it comes to specifying the parameters of the action; rule 2624
allows me to grant the Justice Card to anyone, and 2478 only to myself.
(Does that matter? If so, how?) The statement of this CFJ therefore
depends on whether rule 2624 still permits me to take the action (as
opposed to rule 2478).
}}}

=

In case it helps resolve ambiguity:

I grant myself a Justice Card using the mechanism in rule 2624.
I grant myself a Justice Card using the mechanism in rule 2478.
(Either of these actions might fail due to having been performed
already.)

-- 
ais523

BUS: (@Treasuror) CFJ Rewards

[secretsnail9 via agora-business]

 I grant Murphy 5 boatloads of coins for a timely judgement of CFJ 3955.

I grant Jason 5 boatloads of coins for a timely judgement of CFJ 3952.

I grant secretsnail 5 boatloads of coins for a timely judgement of CFJ
3953.

I grant secretsnail 5 boatloads of coins for a timely judgement of CFJ
3954.

I grant ais523 5 boatloads of coins for a timely judgement of CFJ 3957.

I grant ais523 5 boatloads of coins for a timely judgement of CFJ 3958.



(5 boc = 500 coins)
--
secretsnail

BUS: Re: OFF: [Mad Engineer] Intent to Invent

[Jason Cobb via agora-business]

On 4/17/22 13:11, ais523 via agora-official wrote:
> The Device is on.
>
> I intend, with Agoran Consent, to cause rule 2655 to amend the rule
> "The Device" by appending the following as a list item to the "When the
> device is off:" list:
> {{{
> Any player CAN grant a Welcome Device to any player if the
> grantee has neither received one since e last registered nor in
> the last 30 days.
> }}}
> [G.'s suggestion. Probably broken because the rule that it's based on
> is broken, but nothing else seems to work any better. It seems to make
> more sense to turn the devices off before handing them out.]
>

This is experiment 32.

I support but only because it does nothing.

-- 
Jason Cobb

Assessor, Rulekeepor, S​tonemason

BUS: Re: OFF: [Promotor] Distribution of Proposals 8667-8668

[Edward Murphy via agora-business]

I vote as follows:


8667&   G.  1.0   welcome fix


FOR


8668&   G.  1.0   a light on darkness


PRESENT

BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[nethack4.org dicebot via agora-business]

This is an automated selection of a random rule from Agora's ruleset,
as part of the Mad Engineer's weekly duties.
Randomizing from 153 rules.

Assignment of dice rolls to rules:
1:R101; 2:R103; 3:R104; 4:R105; 5:R106; 6:R107; 7:R208; 8:R217;
9:R478; 10:R591; 11:R649; 12:R683; 13:R693; 14:R869; 15:R879;
16:R911; 17:R955; 18:R991; 19:R1006; 20:R1023; 21:R1030; 22:R1051;
23:R1367; 24:R1551; 25:R1586; 26:R1607; 27:R1681; 28:R1688; 29:R1698;
30:R1727; 31:R1728; 32:R1742; 33:R1769; 34:R1789; 35:R1950; 36:R2029;
37:R2034; 38:R2124; 39:R2125; 40:R2127; 41:R2137; 42:R2138; 43:R2139;
44:R2140; 45:R2141; 46:R2143; 47:R2152; 48:R2154; 49:R2160; 50:R2162;
51:R2166; 52:R2168; 53:R2175; 54:R2201; 55:R2202; 56:R2221; 57:R2231;
58:R2240; 59:R2246; 60:R2327; 61:R2350; 62:R2379; 63:R2415; 64:R2422;
65:R2423; 66:R2429; 67:R2438; 68:R2449; 69:R2450; 70:R2451; 71:R2456;
72:R2463; 73:R2464; 74:R2465; 75:R2466; 76:R2471; 77:R2472; 78:R2478;
79:R2480; 80:R2481; 81:R2483; 82:R2486; 83:R2492; 84:R2493; 85:R2495;
86:R2496; 87:R2499; 88:R2505; 89:R2509; 90:R2518; 91:R2519; 92:R2528;
93:R2531; 94:R2545; 95:R2553; 96:R2555; 97:R2556; 98:R2557; 99:R2559;
100:R2566; 101:R2573; 102:R2575; 103:R2576; 104:R2577; 105:R2578;
106:R2579; 107:R2581; 108:R2582; 109:R2585; 110:R2603; 111:R2605;
112:R2606; 113:R2608; 114:R2614; 115:R2616; 116:R2617; 117:R2618;
118:R2620; 119:R2621; 120:R2622; 121:R2623; 122:R2624; 123:R2625;
124:R2629; 125:R2630; 126:R2631; 127:R2632; 128:R2634; 129:R2635;
130:R2636; 131:R2638; 132:R2640; 133:R2641; 134:R2642; 135:R2643;
136:R2644; 137:R2645; 138:R2646; 139:R2649; 140:R2651; 141:R2653;
142:R2654; 143:R2655; 144:R2656; 145:R2657; 146:R2658; 147:R2659;
148:R2660; 149:R2661; 150:R2662; 151:R2663; 152:R2664; 153:R2665.

The dice roll was: 7
This is R208, Resolving Agoran Decisions.

--
ruleroller.pl v0.1.  For source code,
see 
and .

Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[ais523 via agora-business]

On Mon, 2022-04-18 at 01:27 +0200, nethack4.org dicebot via agora-
business wrote:
> This is an automated selection of a random rule from Agora's ruleset,
> as part of the Mad Engineer's weekly duties.

Ignore this – it was done in the wrong week because I messed up the
timezone calculations, and thus isn't valid as part of the weekly
duties. I'll have to repeat it in the correct week.

-- 
ais523
Mad Engineer

BUS: Re: OFF: [Collector] Stamp Report 32

[secretsnail9 via agora-business]

On Sun, Apr 17, 2022 at 6:49 PM nixnull+agora--- via agora-official <
agora-offic...@agoranomic.org> wrote:

> Murphy:
> - 13 Murphy Stamps
> - 1 secretsnail Stamp
>

COE: Murphy should have a Madrid stamp instead of a secretsnail stamp

BUS: Re: OFF: [Treasuror] [Monthly Report] Forbes 395

[secretsnail9 via agora-business]

 COE: you missed this message in which I cashed a promise to act on behalf
of Madrid to transfer myself 2 coins.
https://www.mail-archive.com/agora-business@agoranomic.org/msg42316.html
(CFJ 3954 judged it worked)

--
secretsnail

BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection

[nethack4.org dicebot via agora-business]

This is an automated selection of a random rule from Agora's ruleset,
as part of the Mad Engineer's weekly duties.
Randomizing from 153 rules.

Assignment of dice rolls to rules:
1:R101; 2:R103; 3:R104; 4:R105; 5:R106; 6:R107; 7:R208; 8:R217;
9:R478; 10:R591; 11:R649; 12:R683; 13:R693; 14:R869; 15:R879;
16:R911; 17:R955; 18:R991; 19:R1006; 20:R1023; 21:R1030; 22:R1051;
23:R1367; 24:R1551; 25:R1586; 26:R1607; 27:R1681; 28:R1688; 29:R1698;
30:R1727; 31:R1728; 32:R1742; 33:R1769; 34:R1789; 35:R1950; 36:R2029;
37:R2034; 38:R2124; 39:R2125; 40:R2127; 41:R2137; 42:R2138; 43:R2139;
44:R2140; 45:R2141; 46:R2143; 47:R2152; 48:R2154; 49:R2160; 50:R2162;
51:R2166; 52:R2168; 53:R2175; 54:R2201; 55:R2202; 56:R2221; 57:R2231;
58:R2240; 59:R2246; 60:R2327; 61:R2350; 62:R2379; 63:R2415; 64:R2422;
65:R2423; 66:R2429; 67:R2438; 68:R2449; 69:R2450; 70:R2451; 71:R2456;
72:R2463; 73:R2464; 74:R2465; 75:R2466; 76:R2471; 77:R2472; 78:R2478;
79:R2480; 80:R2481; 81:R2483; 82:R2486; 83:R2492; 84:R2493; 85:R2495;
86:R2496; 87:R2499; 88:R2505; 89:R2509; 90:R2518; 91:R2519; 92:R2528;
93:R2531; 94:R2545; 95:R2553; 96:R2555; 97:R2556; 98:R2557; 99:R2559;
100:R2566; 101:R2573; 102:R2575; 103:R2576; 104:R2577; 105:R2578;
106:R2579; 107:R2581; 108:R2582; 109:R2585; 110:R2603; 111:R2605;
112:R2606; 113:R2608; 114:R2614; 115:R2616; 116:R2617; 117:R2618;
118:R2620; 119:R2621; 120:R2622; 121:R2623; 122:R2624; 123:R2625;
124:R2629; 125:R2630; 126:R2631; 127:R2632; 128:R2634; 129:R2635;
130:R2636; 131:R2638; 132:R2640; 133:R2641; 134:R2642; 135:R2643;
136:R2644; 137:R2645; 138:R2646; 139:R2649; 140:R2651; 141:R2653;
142:R2654; 143:R2655; 144:R2656; 145:R2657; 146:R2658; 147:R2659;
148:R2660; 149:R2661; 150:R2662; 151:R2663; 152:R2664; 153:R2665.

The dice roll was: 144
This is R2656, Points.

--
ruleroller.pl v0.1.  For source code,
see 
and .