Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Can we telegraph this any more clearly?

[Owen Jacobson]

> On Nov 9, 2017, at 9:39 AM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, I did about the same as Herald when I re-posted the victory election
> thing.  Traditionally, the proof of a scammer's good intent is an actual
> proposal to fix the problem.  I think an apology is appropriate, where the
> apology included a fix.  I'm not sure if the fix is stopping all these dumb
> micropayments, versus just among sure to help get that auction proposal
> out as soon as humanly possible.

I can work with that. The Auctions v4 draft I just submitted has an 
auction-specific fix for micropayments.

I do think we need to tighten up what it means to pay, and to spend, Shinies. 
How’s this for a sketch:

* Where the rules define an amount of an asset to be paid to a recipient, any 
attempt to pay an amount other than the full amount due is INEFFECTIVE.

* To spend an amount of a currency is to transfer that amount to Agora.

-o



signature.asc
Description: Message signed with OpenPGP

DIS: Auctions v4

[Owen Jacobson]

Changes from v3:

* Wording normalization, including MMI fixups throughout.
* Auction lots can now contain _liquid_ assets, not _fungible_ assets. You can 
auction estates (which are not fungible).
* Platonic auctioneering, instead of pragmatic auctioneering.
* Major rework of auction initiation, termination, and ending. The structure's 
the same, but the wording should be more regular.
* A simple SHALL NOT on impossible bids.
* A fix for shiny-cycling scams as they apply to auctions.
* Auctions no longer authorize players to cause transfers on Agora's behalf 
directly. This seems like a big backdoor to asset transfer rules; please put 
those clauses in the enabling rule!
* Multi-lot auctions.

Note to ATMunn: you did the substantial part of this work, and in an ideal 
universe this proposal would credit _you_ as author. However, submitting a 
proposal with another person as author causes some problems under r. 2350: if I 
name you as author, I cannot withdraw the proposal. If you take this draft and 
rework it, swap my name and yours in the author/co-author section.

Title: Auctions v4
Author: o
Co-author(s): ATMunn, Aris, nichdel, G.
AI: 2.0

---

Create a power-2 rule titled "Auctions"
{
An Auction is a way for entities to give away items in exchange for
Shinies. Any rule or contract may permit (or require) auctions to
be initiated.
}

Create a power-1 rule titled "Lots"
{
Each Auction has one or more lots of items. An Asset may be an item in a
lot if and only if it is liquid.

A lot is a non-empty list of items to be transferred by a single 
auction to
a single recipient.
}

Create a power-1 rule titled "The Auctioneer"
{
Each Auction has an Auctioneer.

The Auctioneer of an auction is the entity that initiates that
auction, and describes all of the specifics of an auction. All
rules or contracts permitting auctions to be initiated should
specify an entity to be Auctioneer. If no Auctioneer is specified,
the default Auctioneer for auctions defined by the rules is Agora, and
the default Auctioneer for auctions defined by a contract is the
contract itself.

A clause in a Contract purporting to make an entity which is neither the
Contract itself nor a party to the Contract the Auctioneer of an Auction
defined by that Contract is INEFFECTIVE.
}

Create a power-1 rule titled "The Auction Announcer"
{
Each Auction has an Announcer. Only persons can be Announcers.

If the Auctioneer of an Auction is a player, then that player is the
Announcer of that Auction.

Otherwise, the rule or contract defining an Auction CAN define the
Announcer for that Auction. Rules to the contrary notwithstanding, no
Contract can define a person as the Announcer of an Auction unless that
person is a party to that Contract.
}

Create a power-1 rule titled "Auction Initiation"
{
An entity authorized by a rule or contract to initiate an Auction CAN 
do so
by announcement. If the rule or contract specifies that that entity 
MUST do
so, that entity SHALL do so in a timely fashion. An auction CANNOT be
initiated other than as described by a rule or contract.

An Auction CANNOT be initiated unless the announcer specifies all of

* the Auction's lots, in the order they will be awarded,
* the items in each lot,
* the Auction's auctioneer,
* the Auction's announcer, and
* the Auction's minimum bid

in the message initiating the auction. An Auction also CANNOT be 
initiated
unless the Auctioneer is able to give away each item in each of the
Auction's lots.
}

Create a power-1 rule titled "Bidding"
{
A person authorized to bid on an Auction CAN do so by announcement,
specifying the amount of shinies to bid. A bid placed on an Auction 
before
it is initiated, or it has ended, is INEFFECTIVE.

An attempt to place a bid which is less than the Auction's minimum bid 
is
INEFFECTIVE.

A person may withdraw their bid on an auction by announcement. If a 
person
submits a bid on an auction, all bids previously placed on that auction 
by
that person are withdrawn.

A rule or contract defining an Auction CAN specify a class of players 
who
are authorized to bid on that Auction. If the rule or contract does not
specify a class of authorized bidders, any player is authorized to bid 
on
an Auction defined by a rule, and any party to a contract is authorized 
to
bid an Auction defined by that Contract.

A person SHALL NOT bid on an auction if it would be impossible for em to
pay that amount at the conclusion of the auction.
}

Create a 

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Can we telegraph this any more clearly?

[ATMunn]

ah, sorry.

On 11/9/2017 10:09 AM, Kerim Aydin wrote:



That's what I was suggesting that o take the opportunity to do...

On Thu, 9 Nov 2017, ATMunn wrote:

If more people would give me suggestions on what to change in my auctions
proposal, then I could get it out a lot sooner. :P

On 11/9/2017 9:39 AM, Kerim Aydin wrote:



Well, I did about the same as Herald when I re-posted the victory election
thing.  Traditionally, the proof of a scammer's good intent is an actual
proposal to fix the problem.  I think an apology is appropriate, where the
apology included a fix.  I'm not sure if the fix is stopping all these dumb
micropayments, versus just among sure to help get that auction proposal
out as soon as humanly possible.

On Thu, 9 Nov 2017, VJ Rada wrote:

Alright, G. I'm giving you the opportunity to decide this case.

On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 8:30 PM, Cuddle Beam  wrote:

Routine finger point to o for collaborating yadda yadda give him green
card, ty, lol.

On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 10:11 AM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:




On Nov 9, 2017, at 3:50 AM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:

As authorized by the contract "Easy Off Scam: Cleaning Your Mold
Fast",

I cause the Head, V.J Rada, to pay Agora 1 shiny towards the purchase
of
the Estate of Erewhon.

[…]

I’m generally pretty reticent to abuse official duties, as a few
people
have observed, so I thought I’d explain myself for this deeply
uncharacteristic decision:

1. I’m interested in seeing this loophole closed, if it works. Testing
it
somewhat forces us to consider it seriously, rather than as a
hypothetical
curio.

2. If it _does_ work, an Estate may well be an appropriate reward. The
ability to spend an infinite amount of money can’t be used for much
else,
thankfully.

3. Whether it works or not, the damage is fairly contained. The net
effect
of the payments made is zero change to anyone’s balances. This isn’t a
scam
that either creates a dictatorship or litters the gamestate with
substantial side effects.

I did delay distributing one other payment to make the scam easier to
operate (specifically, the payment V.J Rada made to create the “Scam
Fix”
contract, which remains undistributed), but the scam was set up so
that
that would have had no practical effect as I would have otherwise
ferreted
that single shiny away in the Easy Off contract, as permitted in power
1 of
that contract.

I respectfully ask forgiveness for my part in it. If anyone sees fit
to
point a finger over this, I don’t have much further to say on the
subject,
and I won’t hold it against you.

-o






--
  From V.J. Rada

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Can we telegraph this any more clearly?

[Kerim Aydin]

That's what I was suggesting that o take the opportunity to do...

On Thu, 9 Nov 2017, ATMunn wrote:
> If more people would give me suggestions on what to change in my auctions
> proposal, then I could get it out a lot sooner. :P
> 
> On 11/9/2017 9:39 AM, Kerim Aydin wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > Well, I did about the same as Herald when I re-posted the victory election
> > thing.  Traditionally, the proof of a scammer's good intent is an actual
> > proposal to fix the problem.  I think an apology is appropriate, where the
> > apology included a fix.  I'm not sure if the fix is stopping all these dumb
> > micropayments, versus just among sure to help get that auction proposal
> > out as soon as humanly possible.
> > 
> > On Thu, 9 Nov 2017, VJ Rada wrote:
> > > Alright, G. I'm giving you the opportunity to decide this case.
> > > 
> > > On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 8:30 PM, Cuddle Beam  wrote:
> > > > Routine finger point to o for collaborating yadda yadda give him green
> > > > card, ty, lol.
> > > > 
> > > > On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 10:11 AM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > > On Nov 9, 2017, at 3:50 AM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > As authorized by the contract "Easy Off Scam: Cleaning Your Mold
> > > > > > Fast",
> > > > > I cause the Head, V.J Rada, to pay Agora 1 shiny towards the purchase
> > > > > of
> > > > > the Estate of Erewhon.
> > > > > 
> > > > > […]
> > > > > 
> > > > > I’m generally pretty reticent to abuse official duties, as a few
> > > > > people
> > > > > have observed, so I thought I’d explain myself for this deeply
> > > > > uncharacteristic decision:
> > > > > 
> > > > > 1. I’m interested in seeing this loophole closed, if it works. Testing
> > > > > it
> > > > > somewhat forces us to consider it seriously, rather than as a
> > > > > hypothetical
> > > > > curio.
> > > > > 
> > > > > 2. If it _does_ work, an Estate may well be an appropriate reward. The
> > > > > ability to spend an infinite amount of money can’t be used for much
> > > > > else,
> > > > > thankfully.
> > > > > 
> > > > > 3. Whether it works or not, the damage is fairly contained. The net
> > > > > effect
> > > > > of the payments made is zero change to anyone’s balances. This isn’t a
> > > > > scam
> > > > > that either creates a dictatorship or litters the gamestate with
> > > > > substantial side effects.
> > > > > 
> > > > > I did delay distributing one other payment to make the scam easier to
> > > > > operate (specifically, the payment V.J Rada made to create the “Scam
> > > > > Fix”
> > > > > contract, which remains undistributed), but the scam was set up so
> > > > > that
> > > > > that would have had no practical effect as I would have otherwise
> > > > > ferreted
> > > > > that single shiny away in the Easy Off contract, as permitted in power
> > > > > 1 of
> > > > > that contract.
> > > > > 
> > > > > I respectfully ask forgiveness for my part in it. If anyone sees fit
> > > > > to
> > > > > point a finger over this, I don’t have much further to say on the
> > > > > subject,
> > > > > and I won’t hold it against you.
> > > > > 
> > > > > -o
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > -- 
> > >  From V.J. Rada
> > > 
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Can we telegraph this any more clearly?

[ATMunn]

If more people would give me suggestions on what to change in my auctions 
proposal, then I could get it out a lot sooner. :P

On 11/9/2017 9:39 AM, Kerim Aydin wrote:



Well, I did about the same as Herald when I re-posted the victory election
thing.  Traditionally, the proof of a scammer's good intent is an actual
proposal to fix the problem.  I think an apology is appropriate, where the
apology included a fix.  I'm not sure if the fix is stopping all these dumb
micropayments, versus just among sure to help get that auction proposal
out as soon as humanly possible.

On Thu, 9 Nov 2017, VJ Rada wrote:

Alright, G. I'm giving you the opportunity to decide this case.

On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 8:30 PM, Cuddle Beam  wrote:

Routine finger point to o for collaborating yadda yadda give him green
card, ty, lol.

On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 10:11 AM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:




On Nov 9, 2017, at 3:50 AM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:

As authorized by the contract "Easy Off Scam: Cleaning Your Mold Fast",

I cause the Head, V.J Rada, to pay Agora 1 shiny towards the purchase of
the Estate of Erewhon.

[…]

I’m generally pretty reticent to abuse official duties, as a few people
have observed, so I thought I’d explain myself for this deeply
uncharacteristic decision:

1. I’m interested in seeing this loophole closed, if it works. Testing it
somewhat forces us to consider it seriously, rather than as a hypothetical
curio.

2. If it _does_ work, an Estate may well be an appropriate reward. The
ability to spend an infinite amount of money can’t be used for much else,
thankfully.

3. Whether it works or not, the damage is fairly contained. The net effect
of the payments made is zero change to anyone’s balances. This isn’t a scam
that either creates a dictatorship or litters the gamestate with
substantial side effects.

I did delay distributing one other payment to make the scam easier to
operate (specifically, the payment V.J Rada made to create the “Scam Fix”
contract, which remains undistributed), but the scam was set up so that
that would have had no practical effect as I would have otherwise ferreted
that single shiny away in the Easy Off contract, as permitted in power 1 of
that contract.

I respectfully ask forgiveness for my part in it. If anyone sees fit to
point a finger over this, I don’t have much further to say on the subject,
and I won’t hold it against you.

-o






--
 From V.J. Rada

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Can we telegraph this any more clearly?

[Kerim Aydin]

Well, I did about the same as Herald when I re-posted the victory election
thing.  Traditionally, the proof of a scammer's good intent is an actual
proposal to fix the problem.  I think an apology is appropriate, where the
apology included a fix.  I'm not sure if the fix is stopping all these dumb
micropayments, versus just among sure to help get that auction proposal
out as soon as humanly possible.

On Thu, 9 Nov 2017, VJ Rada wrote:
> Alright, G. I'm giving you the opportunity to decide this case.
> 
> On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 8:30 PM, Cuddle Beam  wrote:
> > Routine finger point to o for collaborating yadda yadda give him green
> > card, ty, lol.
> >
> > On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 10:11 AM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> > On Nov 9, 2017, at 3:50 AM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:
> >> >
> >> > As authorized by the contract "Easy Off Scam: Cleaning Your Mold Fast",
> >> I cause the Head, V.J Rada, to pay Agora 1 shiny towards the purchase of
> >> the Estate of Erewhon.
> >>
> >> […]
> >>
> >> I’m generally pretty reticent to abuse official duties, as a few people
> >> have observed, so I thought I’d explain myself for this deeply
> >> uncharacteristic decision:
> >>
> >> 1. I’m interested in seeing this loophole closed, if it works. Testing it
> >> somewhat forces us to consider it seriously, rather than as a hypothetical
> >> curio.
> >>
> >> 2. If it _does_ work, an Estate may well be an appropriate reward. The
> >> ability to spend an infinite amount of money can’t be used for much else,
> >> thankfully.
> >>
> >> 3. Whether it works or not, the damage is fairly contained. The net effect
> >> of the payments made is zero change to anyone’s balances. This isn’t a scam
> >> that either creates a dictatorship or litters the gamestate with
> >> substantial side effects.
> >>
> >> I did delay distributing one other payment to make the scam easier to
> >> operate (specifically, the payment V.J Rada made to create the “Scam Fix”
> >> contract, which remains undistributed), but the scam was set up so that
> >> that would have had no practical effect as I would have otherwise ferreted
> >> that single shiny away in the Easy Off contract, as permitted in power 1 of
> >> that contract.
> >>
> >> I respectfully ask forgiveness for my part in it. If anyone sees fit to
> >> point a finger over this, I don’t have much further to say on the subject,
> >> and I won’t hold it against you.
> >>
> >> -o
> >>
> >>
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> From V.J. Rada
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Can we telegraph this any more clearly?

[VJ Rada]

Alright, G. I'm giving you the opportunity to decide this case.

On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 8:30 PM, Cuddle Beam  wrote:
> Routine finger point to o for collaborating yadda yadda give him green
> card, ty, lol.
>
> On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 10:11 AM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:
>
>>
>> > On Nov 9, 2017, at 3:50 AM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:
>> >
>> > As authorized by the contract "Easy Off Scam: Cleaning Your Mold Fast",
>> I cause the Head, V.J Rada, to pay Agora 1 shiny towards the purchase of
>> the Estate of Erewhon.
>>
>> […]
>>
>> I’m generally pretty reticent to abuse official duties, as a few people
>> have observed, so I thought I’d explain myself for this deeply
>> uncharacteristic decision:
>>
>> 1. I’m interested in seeing this loophole closed, if it works. Testing it
>> somewhat forces us to consider it seriously, rather than as a hypothetical
>> curio.
>>
>> 2. If it _does_ work, an Estate may well be an appropriate reward. The
>> ability to spend an infinite amount of money can’t be used for much else,
>> thankfully.
>>
>> 3. Whether it works or not, the damage is fairly contained. The net effect
>> of the payments made is zero change to anyone’s balances. This isn’t a scam
>> that either creates a dictatorship or litters the gamestate with
>> substantial side effects.
>>
>> I did delay distributing one other payment to make the scam easier to
>> operate (specifically, the payment V.J Rada made to create the “Scam Fix”
>> contract, which remains undistributed), but the scam was set up so that
>> that would have had no practical effect as I would have otherwise ferreted
>> that single shiny away in the Easy Off contract, as permitted in power 1 of
>> that contract.
>>
>> I respectfully ask forgiveness for my part in it. If anyone sees fit to
>> point a finger over this, I don’t have much further to say on the subject,
>> and I won’t hold it against you.
>>
>> -o
>>
>>



-- 
>From V.J. Rada

DIS: Re: BUS: Can we telegraph this any more clearly?

[Owen Jacobson]

> On Nov 9, 2017, at 3:50 AM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:
> 
> As authorized by the contract "Easy Off Scam: Cleaning Your Mold Fast", I 
> cause the Head, V.J Rada, to pay Agora 1 shiny towards the purchase of the 
> Estate of Erewhon.

[…]

I’m generally pretty reticent to abuse official duties, as a few people have 
observed, so I thought I’d explain myself for this deeply uncharacteristic 
decision:

1. I’m interested in seeing this loophole closed, if it works. Testing it 
somewhat forces us to consider it seriously, rather than as a hypothetical 
curio.

2. If it _does_ work, an Estate may well be an appropriate reward. The ability 
to spend an infinite amount of money can’t be used for much else, thankfully.

3. Whether it works or not, the damage is fairly contained. The net effect of 
the payments made is zero change to anyone’s balances. This isn’t a scam that 
either creates a dictatorship or litters the gamestate with substantial side 
effects.

I did delay distributing one other payment to make the scam easier to operate 
(specifically, the payment V.J Rada made to create the “Scam Fix” contract, 
which remains undistributed), but the scam was set up so that that would have 
had no practical effect as I would have otherwise ferreted that single shiny 
away in the Easy Off contract, as permitted in power 1 of that contract.

I respectfully ask forgiveness for my part in it. If anyone sees fit to point a 
finger over this, I don’t have much further to say on the subject, and I won’t 
hold it against you.

-o



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Description: Message signed with OpenPGP

DIS: Re: BUS: Can we telegraph this any more clearly?

[Aris Merchant]

I favor this case.

-Aris

On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 12:53 AM Owen Jacobson  wrote:

>
> > On Nov 9, 2017, at 3:50 AM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:
> >
> > As authorized by the contract "Easy Off Scam: Cleaning Your Mold Fast",
> I cause the Head, V.J Rada, to pay Agora 1
>
>
> […]
>
> I call for judgement, paying Agora 1 sh. to do so and barring V.J Rada, on
> the statement "V.J Rada owns the Estate of Erehwon".
>
> Caller's Arguments:
>
> Exhibit 1 contains 1,011 payments to Agora of 1 sh. apiece, substantially
> made by V.J Rada and identified as being payments for the purchase of the
> Estate. V.J Rada was authorized to purchase that Estate, as exhibit 2
> shows, e had recently won an auction.
>
> Shinies are fungible (see exhibits 3 and 4): any two collections of
> shinies with the same number of shinies in them and the same owner are
> fully interchangeable, and are in fact indistinguishable from one another,
> as we lack the means to identify any single shiny with any certainty.
> Similarly, dividing a payment into multiple smaller payments is neither
> permitted nor proscribed by the rules, and after receiving 1,011 shinies,
> Agora is exactly as enriched if those shinies come in a single payment, or
> in multiple payments.
>
> Conversely, however, the 1,011 payments in exhibit 1 are evidently not
> _atomic_. They are, by necessity, interleaved with other actions involving
> the same parties (V.J Rada and Agora). If we are to treat all 1,011
> payments as a unit, in what order does that payment occur with respect to
> the 1,011 payments Agora makes in that message?
>
> Exhibit 5 is the only relevant CFJ I'm aware of. I judged it, and I stand
> by it.
>
> Exhibits:
>
> 1. <
> https://mailman.agoranomic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/agora-business/2017-November/037043.html
> >
> 2. <
> https://mailman.agoranomic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/agora-official/2017-November/012032.html
> >
> 3. Rule 2483 ("Economics"):
>
> Shinies (singular "shiny", abbreviated "sh.") are an indestructible
> liquid currency, and the official currency of Agora. The Treasuror is the
> recordkeepor for shinies.
>
> 4. Rule 2166 ("Assets"), in part:
>
> A currency is a class of asset defined as such by its backing
> document. Instances of a currency with the same owner are fungible.
>
> 5. 
>
>