Re: DIS: [Proto] Aggregates (Contracts, by another means)

[Owen Jacobson]

> On Sep 23, 2017, at 5:10 AM, Alex Smith  wrote:
> 
> On Sat, 2017-09-23 at 00:54 -0400, Owen Jacobson wrote:
>> The idea is that someone seeking to create a contract can instead
>> create a pledge, and then (in the same message, probably) create an
>> aggregate containing the pledge and the other affected assets. This
>> is limited - you can’t contract duties this way, only assets - but
>> incredibly flexible as to what kinds of obligation may be
>> transferred. Even if you receive an unwelcome pledge this way, you
>> have ownership of it, and may retract it.
> 
> You can mousetrap someone by giving them a pledge that they're already
> platonically breaking, and then calling em on it immediately. That
> doesn't seem right to me.

If the pledges-as-assets proposal passes, then someone trying this would need 
some co-conspirators. Calling in a pledge, under that proposal, requires Agoran 
Consent and therefore requires at least one supporting player. I have enough 
faith in Agorans as a whole to believe that at least someone would object to 
calling in such a pledge.

Once you own the pledge you can also defuse it by withdrawing the pledge. If 
the giver really, _really_ doesn’t want you to do that, they can object more or 
less indefinitely, but it would be incredibly poor sportspersonship to do so.

You’re not wrong, but I don’t think it’s as dangerous as that.

-o



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Re: DIS: [Proto] Aggregates (Contracts, by another means)

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus]

I concur, I see nothing stopping you from bundling many pledges together as an 
aggregate and transferring them.

Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com



> On Sep 23, 2017, at 9:31 AM, ATMunn .  wrote:
> 
> Maybe the person you're giving the pledge to needs to agree to it for it to 
> be in effect? That might work, but it might not. That's my two (noob) cents.
> 
> On Sat, Sep 23, 2017 at 5:10 AM, Alex Smith  wrote:
> On Sat, 2017-09-23 at 00:54 -0400, Owen Jacobson wrote:
> > The idea is that someone seeking to create a contract can instead
> > create a pledge, and then (in the same message, probably) create an
> > aggregate containing the pledge and the other affected assets. This
> > is limited - you can’t contract duties this way, only assets - but
> > incredibly flexible as to what kinds of obligation may be
> > transferred. Even if you receive an unwelcome pledge this way, you
> > have ownership of it, and may retract it.
> 
> You can mousetrap someone by giving them a pledge that they're already
> platonically breaking, and then calling em on it immediately. That
> doesn't seem right to me.
> 
> --
> ais523
> 



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Re: DIS: [Proto] Aggregates (Contracts, by another means)

[ATMunn .]

Maybe the person you're giving the pledge to needs to agree to it for it to
be in effect? That might work, but it might not. That's my two (noob) cents.

On Sat, Sep 23, 2017 at 5:10 AM, Alex Smith 
wrote:

> On Sat, 2017-09-23 at 00:54 -0400, Owen Jacobson wrote:
> > The idea is that someone seeking to create a contract can instead
> > create a pledge, and then (in the same message, probably) create an
> > aggregate containing the pledge and the other affected assets. This
> > is limited - you can’t contract duties this way, only assets - but
> > incredibly flexible as to what kinds of obligation may be
> > transferred. Even if you receive an unwelcome pledge this way, you
> > have ownership of it, and may retract it.
>
> You can mousetrap someone by giving them a pledge that they're already
> platonically breaking, and then calling em on it immediately. That
> doesn't seem right to me.
>
> --
> ais523
>

Re: DIS: [Proto] Aggregates (Contracts, by another means)

[Alex Smith]

On Sat, 2017-09-23 at 00:54 -0400, Owen Jacobson wrote:
> The idea is that someone seeking to create a contract can instead
> create a pledge, and then (in the same message, probably) create an
> aggregate containing the pledge and the other affected assets. This
> is limited - you can’t contract duties this way, only assets - but
> incredibly flexible as to what kinds of obligation may be
> transferred. Even if you receive an unwelcome pledge this way, you
> have ownership of it, and may retract it.

You can mousetrap someone by giving them a pledge that they're already
platonically breaking, and then calling em on it immediately. That
doesn't seem right to me.

-- 
ais523

Re: DIS: [Proto] Aggregates (Contracts, by another means)

[Owen Jacobson]

> On Sep 23, 2017, at 12:54 AM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:
> 
> * An Aggregate is an asset.
> 
> * A player may create eir own Aggregate by announcement, listing a set of 
> assets e owns as constituents.
> 
> * A player who owns an Aggregate may destroy it by announcement. (This is 
> automatic if an Aggregate is “an Asset” but it might be worth calling out 
> given the following conditions.)
> 
> * An aggregate is a fixed asset if any constituent asset is fixed, otherwise 
> it is liquid.
> 
> * An aggregate is fungible if all of its constituent assets are fungible, 
> subject to obvious equivalences, otherwise it is indivisible.
> 
> * Ownership of an aggregate is restricted to entities which may own every one 
> of its constituents.
> 
> * An asset which constitutes an aggregate CAN only be transferred to a 
> recipient if every asset in the aggregate, and the aggregate itself, are also 
> transferred to that recipient. An aggregate CAN only be transferred to a 
> recipient if every constituent is transferred to the same recipient.
> 
> * Rules to the contrary notwithstanding, the following classes of fixed 
> assets CAN be transferred as part of an aggregate: pledges. (Contracts, if we 
> have them.)
> 
> The idea is that someone seeking to create a contract can instead create a 
> pledge, and then (in the same message, probably) create an aggregate 
> containing the pledge and the other affected assets. This is limited - you 
> can’t contract duties this way, only assets - but incredibly flexible as to 
> what kinds of obligation may be transferred. Even if you receive an unwelcome 
> pledge this way, you have ownership of it, and may retract it.

An example real estate contract in this style:

-
I pledge to transfer the aggregate created in this message to Publius 
Scribonius Scholasticus in a timely manner after e pays o 25 shinies.

I create an aggregate containing the previous pledge and the Estate of Faron.
-

-o



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DIS: [Proto] Aggregates (Contracts, by another means)

[Owen Jacobson]

* An Aggregate is an asset.

* A player may create eir own Aggregate by announcement, listing a set of 
assets e owns as constituents.

* A player who owns an Aggregate may destroy it by announcement. (This is 
automatic if an Aggregate is “an Asset” but it might be worth calling out given 
the following conditions.)

* An aggregate is a fixed asset if any constituent asset is fixed, otherwise it 
is liquid.

* An aggregate is fungible if all of its constituent assets are fungible, 
subject to obvious equivalences, otherwise it is indivisible.

* Ownership of an aggregate is restricted to entities which may own every one 
of its constituents.

* An asset which constitutes an aggregate CAN only be transferred to a 
recipient if every asset in the aggregate, and the aggregate itself, are also 
transferred to that recipient. An aggregate CAN only be transferred to a 
recipient if every constituent is transferred to the same recipient.

* Rules to the contrary notwithstanding, the following classes of fixed assets 
CAN be transferred as part of an aggregate: pledges. (Contracts, if we have 
them.)

The idea is that someone seeking to create a contract can instead create a 
pledge, and then (in the same message, probably) create an aggregate containing 
the pledge and the other affected assets. This is limited - you can’t contract 
duties this way, only assets - but incredibly flexible as to what kinds of 
obligation may be transferred. Even if you receive an unwelcome pledge this 
way, you have ownership of it, and may retract it.


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