Re: DIS: Agoran't Draft
Changes shortlist: - "anytime" to "any time" - used Janet's text for Employee - removed Errorer (one can propose to resolve the spoiler-employee problem with blots or other punishment.) - added "Similarly, for other roles and their win conditions (such as Employee), if there exists an ambiguity about it, the Agoran Ruleset shall be used to provide a judgement." - set the alarm sounding thing to 4 days instead of 7. - redid section IV a bit: -- created a blank referenda for quorum (and otherwise) -- added Janet's suggestion of initial gamestate. -- reorganized order of events -- fixed initial ruleset link To discuss: - Employee & Spoiler: -- Need for Employee existence -- need for Employee reports to ratify -- need for Spoiler existence -- the best way to write one or both roles if we necessitate their existence - general balance - any missing roles? Regulation draft: = I. Amendments = Any participant can propose changes to these regulations. However, under the current Agoran ruleset, actual amendments to these regulations are governed by Agoran Rule 2495, which stated, "These regulations may thereafter be amended only by the Herald or eir designee Without 3 Objections." (and this may have been changed, or may be changed in the interim/proceedings, via the Agoran ruleset.) === II. Joining === Any person CAN become a participant by announcement any time before the alarm has been sounded. Any participant CAN cease to be a participant by announcement. == III. Roles == The following are the Roles and their corresponding win conditions: Protector - Agoran't is not ossified at any point in time between the beginning of Agoran't and the end of this contest. Destroyer - At any point in time before the contest ends, Agoran't was ossified. Metawinner - Have the most wins within Agoran't at the moment immediately before the contest ends. Adder - Agoran't has 5+ more rules than it did initially, immediately before the contest ends. Subtracter - Agoran't has 5+ less rules than it did initially, immediately before the contest ends. Employee - Immediately before the contest ends, having published the most successfully ratified, duty-fulfilling reports. Spoiler - If the only other participants that would win are Protectors or Destroyers, the Spoiler also wins. The Available Roles are the first N roles on the following list, where N is the number of participants at Role Assignment. If there are more participants than roles, cycle through the list of roles until N is met. List: Protector, Destroyer, Adder, Subtracter, Protector, Metawinner, Destroyer, Employee, Spoiler. === IV. Rules and Gamestate === When the alarm is sounded, the following occur immediately and in order: - No former rules exist. No proposals exist and no Agoran decisions are ongoing. Otherwise, in general, initial gamestate is to be construed as default or empty. - Agoran't begins with the ruleset in this message: https://mailman.agoranomic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/agora-business/2023-June/051757.html - In the context of Agoran't, the publicity of "https://agoranomic.groups.io/g/agorant"; is set to "public". - All participants of this contest become players of Agoran't. - For the purposes of quorum and otherwise, a referendum with the text {} is resolved as REJECTED. - For the purposes of activity and otherwise, all players are considered to have made eir last announcement. - All unmentioned switches have their default value(s). - The results of all CFJs that have been judged in Agora are considered "past judgments" in Agoran't. V. Beginning If it has been 4 days since the beginning of this contest and e has not already done so, the Gamemaster and two other chosen players CAN and SHALL distribute roles to each participant such that only available roles are given out, each participant receives a role, and nobody knows who received which role. When the Gamemaster is confident this has occurred, e CAN once and SHALL, in a timely manner, "set the alarm" by announcement. The alarm is sounded at the beginning of the first day that starts 24 hours or more after the alarm is set. == VI. Ending and Winning == Ossification, for the purposes of winning the tournament, is taken to mean: "Agoran't is ossified if it is IMPOSSIBLE for any reasonable combination of actions by players to cause arbitrary rule changes to be made and/or arbitrary proposals to be adopted within a real-world (UTC) four-week period." Similarly, for other roles and their win conditions (such as Employee), if there exists an ambiguity about it, the Agoran Ruleset shall be used to provide a judgement. When 1 second less than 90 days has passed since the initiation of this tournament, the following occur, in order: - All participants SHOULD reveal eir roles, and all participants whose
Re: DIS: Agoran't Draft
On 6/28/23 15:16, 4st nomic via agora-discussion wrote: > When the alarm is sounded, the following occur: > > Agoran't begins with the ruleset in this message: > https://www.mail-archive.com/agora-business@agoranomic.org/msg45212.html > > In the context of Agoran't, the publicity of > "https://agoranomic.groups.io/g/agorant"; is set to "public". > > All participants of this contest become players of Agoran't. > Quorum is initially set to half the number of participants. > All players are considered to have made eir last announcement > at the time the alarm sounds. > All unmentioned switches have their default value(s). > > The results of all CFJs that have been judged in Agora are considered > "past judgments" in Agoran't. Oh, also: At least add "All other switches are at their default value.". Maybe also add "No former rule exist. No proposals exist and no Agoran decisions are ongoing. Otherwise, in general, initial gamestate is to be construed as default or empty." Unfortunately, quorum probably needs an actual modification to the Agoran't ruleset, since it's set continuously. -- Janet Cobb Assessor, Rulekeepor, Stonemason
Re: DIS: Agoran't Draft
On 6/28/23 15:16, 4st nomic via agora-discussion wrote: > === > II. Joining > === > > Any person CAN become a participant by announcement anytime before the > alarm has been sounded. "any time" :P > The following are the Roles and their corresponding win conditions: > > Protector - Agoran't is not ossified at any point in time between the > beginning of Agoran't and the end of this contest. > > Destroyer - At any point in time before the contest ends, Agoran't was > ossified. > > Metawinner - Have the most wins within Agoran't at the moment > immediately before the contest ends. > > Adder - Agoran't has 5+ more rules than it did initially, immediately > before the contest ends. > > Subtracter - Agoran't has 5+ less rules than it did initially, > immediately before the contest ends. > > Employee - Have published the most successfully ratified reports, > immediately before the contest ends. "Immediately before the contest ends, having published the most successfully ratified reports." > Errorer - Receive the most objections to reports immediately > before the contest ends. "Immediately before the contest ends, having received the most total claims of error to reports e published." These both leave the question of what if the definition of "report" or "claim of error" is changed. Theoretically I guess the same applies to "rule" but that's far less likely to cause a problem. > > V. Beginning > > > If it has been 7 days since the beginning of this contest and e has not > already done so, the Gamemaster and two other chosen players CAN and > SHALL distribute roles to each participant such that only available > roles are given out, each participant receives a role, and nobody knows > who received which role. Do we really need a full 7 days? We only have a precious 90 for the whole tournament. Maybe 4? -- Janet Cobb Assessor, Rulekeepor, Stonemason
Re: DIS: Agoran't Draft
New draft of the regulations (the base Agoran't rules seem fine to me?) Changes: - Clarifying how changes occur (we're just gonna use the Agoran rules, ) - applied G's suggestion to slightly reduce first-mover advantage. - added "and quorum is initially set to half the number of participants." - added a role to foil the Spoiler-Employee dynamic ("Errorer"): their goal is to get CoE's, so it will be a little annoying that CoE's will be purposefully made now and again, which might be better? Thoughts welcome on this... Would the implementation be that this is an early game role, in that somehow CoE's get proposed away? IDK... - added "All players are considered to have made eir last announcement at the time the alarm sounds" - Updated Winning to specify ossification, and ensure it is orderly and within Agoran dictated timeframes. - referenced a link for the Agoran't initial SLR instead of an attachment. = I. Amendments = Any participant can propose changes to these regulations. However, under the current Agoran ruleset, actual amendments to these regulations are governed by Agoran Rule 2495, which stated, "These regulations may thereafter be amended only by the Herald or eir designee Without 3 Objections." (and this may have been changed, or may be changed in the interim/proceedings, via the Agoran ruleset.) === II. Joining === Any person CAN become a participant by announcement anytime before the alarm has been sounded. Any participant CAN cease to be a participant by announcement. == III. Roles == The following are the Roles and their corresponding win conditions: Protector - Agoran't is not ossified at any point in time between the beginning of Agoran't and the end of this contest. Destroyer - At any point in time before the contest ends, Agoran't was ossified. Metawinner - Have the most wins within Agoran't at the moment immediately before the contest ends. Adder - Agoran't has 5+ more rules than it did initially, immediately before the contest ends. Subtracter - Agoran't has 5+ less rules than it did initially, immediately before the contest ends. Employee - Have published the most successfully ratified reports, immediately before the contest ends. Errorer - Receive the most objections to reports immediately before the contest ends. Spoiler - If the only other participants that would win are Protectors or Destroyers, the Spoiler also wins. The Available Roles are the first N roles on the following list, where N is the number of participants at Role Assignment. If there are more participants than roles, cycle through the list of roles until N is met. List: Protector, Destroyer, Adder, Subtracter, Destroyer, Metawinner, Destroyer, Employee, Errorer, Spoiler. === IV. Rules and Gamestate === When the alarm is sounded, the following occur: Agoran't begins with the ruleset in this message: https://www.mail-archive.com/agora-business@agoranomic.org/msg45212.html In the context of Agoran't, the publicity of "https://agoranomic.groups.io/g/agorant"; is set to "public". All participants of this contest become players of Agoran't. Quorum is initially set to half the number of participants. All players are considered to have made eir last announcement at the time the alarm sounds. All unmentioned switches have their default value(s). The results of all CFJs that have been judged in Agora are considered "past judgments" in Agoran't. V. Beginning If it has been 7 days since the beginning of this contest and e has not already done so, the Gamemaster and two other chosen players CAN and SHALL distribute roles to each participant such that only available roles are given out, each participant receives a role, and nobody knows who received which role. When the Gamemaster is confident this has occurred, e CAN once and SHALL, in a timely manner, "set the alarm" by announcement. The alarm is sounded at the beginning of the first day that starts 24 hours or more after the alarm is set. == VI. Ending and Winning == Ossification, for the purposes of winning the tournament, is taken to mean: "Agoran't is ossified if it is IMPOSSIBLE for any reasonable combination of actions by players to cause arbitrary rule changes to be made and/or arbitrary proposals to be adopted within a real-world (UTC) four-week period, if the tournament were to continue until the end of time." When Agoran't is judged (within Agora) to be ossified, or when 1 second less than 90 days have passed since the initiation of this tournament, the following occur, in order: - All participants SHOULD reveal eir roles, and all participants whose role's win condition have been fulfilled win the tournament. - this tournament ends. - Agoran't SHOULD stop running when the tournament ends. -- 4ˢᵗ Deputy Herald and Deputy Prime Minister Uncertified Bad Idea Genera
Re: DIS: Agoran't Draft
To be clear, it's not just about the gamemaster - I'd hate a huge advantage to go to whomever happened to be around on the moment you decided to announce. Fixing it to a set time still advantages some over others due to time zones, but at least with prep/warning people can plan. On Wed, Jun 21, 2023 at 2:53 PM 4st nomic <4st.no...@gmail.com> wrote: > As the person who is planning to run this tournament, I am willing to accept > any special responsibility required or willing to not play, if that would > enable the tourney to proceed smoothly. :) I don't have too much interest in > winning, otherwise I probably would have won by now. > > On Wed, Jun 21, 2023 at 10:00 AM Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion > wrote: >> >> On Tue, Jun 20, 2023 at 7:41 PM nix via agora-discussion >> wrote: >> > When the Gamemaster is confident this has >> > occurred, e CAN once and SHALL, in a timely manner, "sound the alarm" by >> > announcement. >> >> This game has a strong first mover advantage, it seems to me. Can we >> put everyone on more equal footing with the gamemaster (in terms of >> starting time) with something like: >> >> When the Gamemaster is confident this has occurred, e CAN once and >> SHALL, in a timely manner, "set the alarm" by announcement. The alarm >> is sounded at the beginning of the first day that starts 24 hours or >> more after the alarm is set. > > > > -- > 4ˢᵗ > Deputy (AKA FAKE) Herald > Uncertified Bad Idea Generator
Re: DIS: Agoran't Draft
As the person who is planning to run this tournament, I am willing to accept any special responsibility required or willing to not play, if that would enable the tourney to proceed smoothly. :) I don't have too much interest in winning, otherwise I probably would have won by now. On Wed, Jun 21, 2023 at 10:00 AM Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion < agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote: > On Tue, Jun 20, 2023 at 7:41 PM nix via agora-discussion > wrote: > > When the Gamemaster is confident this has > > occurred, e CAN once and SHALL, in a timely manner, "sound the alarm" by > > announcement. > > This game has a strong first mover advantage, it seems to me. Can we > put everyone on more equal footing with the gamemaster (in terms of > starting time) with something like: > > When the Gamemaster is confident this has occurred, e CAN once and > SHALL, in a timely manner, "set the alarm" by announcement. The alarm > is sounded at the beginning of the first day that starts 24 hours or > more after the alarm is set. > -- 4ˢᵗ Deputy (AKA FAKE) Herald Uncertified Bad Idea Generator
Re: DIS: Agoran't Draft
On Tue, Jun 20, 2023 at 7:41 PM nix via agora-discussion wrote: > When the Gamemaster is confident this has > occurred, e CAN once and SHALL, in a timely manner, "sound the alarm" by > announcement. This game has a strong first mover advantage, it seems to me. Can we put everyone on more equal footing with the gamemaster (in terms of starting time) with something like: When the Gamemaster is confident this has occurred, e CAN once and SHALL, in a timely manner, "set the alarm" by announcement. The alarm is sounded at the beginning of the first day that starts 24 hours or more after the alarm is set.
Re: DIS: Agoran't Draft
On 6/20/23 22:00, Gaelan Steele via agora-discussion wrote: > - It’s worth explicitly specifying whether Agora’s current switch values > carry over to Agoran’t or if Agoran’t starts with all switches at default > values. Same with other non-rule gamestate, eg entities and other > miscellaneous bits I’m definitely forgetting? I intended anything not explicitly mentioned there (or naturally inferred) to be default. I actually had that in there, rewrote that section, and forgot to re-add it. -- nix Prime Minister
Re: DIS: Agoran't Draft
On 6/20/23 21:57, Janet Cobb via agora-discussion wrote: > Given the existence of this, players are incentivized to object to every > single report they did not publish. (Not going to get too involved in this discussion, I'll leave refining to current players overall.) I think this is only partly true. The Employee is incentivized to make sure nobody approaches eir number, which might lead to objecting if someone is close to em. The Spoiler would want to object to the employee's reports, unless e is certain someone not the employee pulls ahead. Nobody else is incentivized to care since wins aren't mutually exclusive. However, even just those two doing it could be annoying. -- nix Prime Minister
Re: DIS: Agoran't Draft
> On Jun 20, 2023, at 7:40 PM, nix via agora-discussion > wrote: > > = > I. Amendments > = > > Any participant CAN amend these regulations in a specified way with > Agoran Consent. For this action, only support and objections from > participants count. > > === > II. Joining > === > > Any person CAN become a participant by announcement anytime before the > alarm has been sounded. > > Any participant CAN cease to be a participant by announcement. > > == > III. Roles > == > > The following are the Roles and their corresponding win conditions: > > Protector - Agoran't is not ossified at any point in time between the > beginning of Agoran't and the end of this contest. > > Destroyer - At any point in time before the contest ends, Agoran't was > ossified. > > Metawinner - Have the most wins within Agoran't at the moment > immediately before the contest ends. > > Adder - Agoran't has 5+ more rules than it did initially, immediately > before the contest ends. > > Subtracter - Agoran't has 5+ less rules than it did initially, > immediately before the contest ends. > > Employee - Have published the most successfully ratified reports, > immediately before the contest ends. > > Spoiler - If the only other participants that would win are Protectors > or Destroyers, the Spoiler also wins. > > The Available Roles are the first N roles on the following list, where N > is the number of participants at Role Assignment. If there are more > participants than roles, cycle through the list of roles until N is met. > > List: Protector, Destroyer, Adder, Subtracter, Destroyer, Metawinner, > Destroyer, Employee, Spoiler. > > === > IV. Rules and Gamestate > === > > When the alarm is sounded, the following occur: > > Agoran't begins with the ruleset that is attached in the file > agorantrules.txt. > > In the context of Agoran't, the publicity of > "https://agoranomic.groups.io/g/agorant"; is set to "public". > > All participants of this contest become players of Agoran't. > > The results of all CFJs that have been judged in Agora are considered > "past judgments" in Agoran't. > > > V. Beginning > > > If it has been 7 days since the beginning of this contest and e has not > already done so, the Gamemaster and two other chosen players CAN and > SHALL distribute roles to each participant such that only available > roles are given out, each participant receives a role, and nobody knows > who received which role. When the Gamemaster is confident this has > occurred, e CAN once and SHALL, in a timely manner, "sound the alarm" by > announcement. > > == > VI. Ending and Winning > == > > When Agoran't is judged (within Agora) to be ossified, or when 3 months > have passed since the initiation of this tournament, this tournament > ends. All participants SHOULD reveal eir roles, and all participants > whose role's win condition have been fulfilled win the tournament. > Looks fun! Some quick notes: - I believe a past problem with Agora-shaped subgames is whether or not they can end - it might be worth explicitly stating in R1698 that Agoran’t ends when the tournament it’s part of ends, rules to the contrary withstanding. - Sections III and VI reference ossification - does this mean ossification in the sense of Agora’s R1698 (which, strictly speaking, only defines whether or not Agora is ossified, not any other game), or Agoran’t’s, or some sort of person-on-the-Agoran-omnibus* definition? - It’s worth explicitly specifying whether Agora’s current switch values carry over to Agoran’t or if Agoran’t starts with all switches at default values. Same with other non-rule gamestate, eg entities and other miscellaneous bits I’m definitely forgetting? - If switch values do carry over, make sure you explicitly specify that Agora’s public fora aren’t public in Agoran’t, unless you intend for messages to OFF/BUS to be public in both. - We might want to do something about R104 (First Speaker). * see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_on_the_Clapham_omnibus Gaelan
Re: DIS: Agoran't Draft
On 6/20/23 22:40, nix via agora-discussion wrote: > = > I. Amendments > = > > Any participant CAN amend these regulations in a specified way with > Agoran Consent. For this action, only support and objections from > participants count. The perennial impossibility of Tournament regulations providing for their own amendment strikes again. > === > II. Joining > === > > Any person CAN become a participant by announcement anytime before the > alarm has been sounded. > > Any participant CAN cease to be a participant by announcement. > > == > III. Roles > == > > The following are the Roles and their corresponding win conditions: > > Protector - Agoran't is not ossified at any point in time between the > beginning of Agoran't and the end of this contest. > > Destroyer - At any point in time before the contest ends, Agoran't was > ossified. > > Metawinner - Have the most wins within Agoran't at the moment > immediately before the contest ends. > > Adder - Agoran't has 5+ more rules than it did initially, immediately > before the contest ends. > > Subtracter - Agoran't has 5+ less rules than it did initially, > immediately before the contest ends. > > Employee - Have published the most successfully ratified reports, > immediately before the contest ends. Given the existence of this, players are incentivized to object to every single report they did not publish. > Spoiler - If the only other participants that would win are Protectors > or Destroyers, the Spoiler also wins. > > The Available Roles are the first N roles on the following list, where N > is the number of participants at Role Assignment. If there are more > participants than roles, cycle through the list of roles until N is met. > > List: Protector, Destroyer, Adder, Subtracter, Destroyer, Metawinner, > Destroyer, Employee, Spoiler. > > === > IV. Rules and Gamestate > === > > When the alarm is sounded, the following occur: > > Agoran't begins with the ruleset that is attached in the file > agorantrules.txt. Nothing is "attached" to a regulation. > In the context of Agoran't, the publicity of > "https://agoranomic.groups.io/g/agorant"; is set to "public". > > All participants of this contest become players of Agoran't. > > The results of all CFJs that have been judged in Agora are considered > "past judgments" in Agoran't. > > > V. Beginning > > > If it has been 7 days since the beginning of this contest and e has not > already done so, the Gamemaster and two other chosen players CAN and > SHALL distribute roles to each participant such that only available > roles are given out, each participant receives a role, and nobody knows > who received which role. When the Gamemaster is confident this has > occurred, e CAN once and SHALL, in a timely manner, "sound the alarm" by > announcement. > > == > VI. Ending and Winning > == > > When Agoran't is judged (within Agora) to be ossified, or when 3 months > have passed since the initiation of this tournament, this tournament > ends. All participants SHOULD reveal eir roles, and all participants > whose role's win condition have been fulfilled win the tournament. "win" presumably? But the timing on the evaluation of that isn't clear. -- Janet Cobb Assessor, Rulekeepor, Stonemason