DIS: Re: BUS: Make the goal reachable

[ATMunn]

You don't necessarily have to restate the action when you TTttPF. If you just 
reply to the NttPF message with TTttPF, most officers who deal with whatever 
the action is will just read the original message.

On 11/18/2017 1:36 PM, Corona wrote:

(Whoops. TTttPF) I pend G.'s proposal with AP (2->1).

On 11/18/17, Kerim Aydin  wrote:



Proposal, "Gotta allow a win sometime", AI-3:

--

Amend Rule 2438 (Ribbons) by replacing:
   While a person owns all types of Ribbon,
with:
   While a person owns either all types of Ribbon or 16 types of
   Ribbon,

[There are currently 15 types.  Silver would make 16.  Beyond that,
adding new Ribbons provides win path options rather than raising
the bar for everyone].

--

Re: DIS: GitHub request

[Owen Jacobson]

> On Nov 18, 2017, at 1:52 PM, Alex Smith  wrote:
> 
> On Sat, 2017-11-18 at 13:46 -0500, Owen Jacobson wrote:
>>> On Nov 18, 2017, at 1:45 PM, Owen Jacobson 
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> As Aris said, it’s a submodule. What you’re looking at there is the
>>> metadata Git keeps to determine which repository, and which commit
>>> in that other repository, to use to reconstruct that directory when
>>> needed.
>>> 
>>> Fortunately, Github links through to the other repository. The root
>>> of https://github.com/AgoraNomic/Header/tree/cefaeafa471d76d20482bd
>>> 46d26c71ecc3345b05 >> afa471d76d20482bd46d26c71ecc3345b05> is used to fill in that
>>> directory.
>> 
>> To the Right Honourable Listserv Admin: is there a way to write
>> emails such that links won’t be doubled like this?
> 
> This depends on your email client, not the list server itself. It
> should have a setting called something like "send emails in plain
> text"; if you use that for Agora, the links won't be doubled.
> 
> (Presumably what's happening is that your client is automatically
> converting your email to HTML, then automatically converting it back to
> plaintext for the plaintext portion; that double-conversion is what
> doubles the links.)

Nicely spotted. I didn’t realize my mailer made such a hash of text/plain 
parts. Thanks.

-o



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Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Fingers

[VJ Rada]

Means if the CFJ is judged past the statute of limitations, y'all can still
call it in & punish me.

On Sun, Nov 19, 2017 at 8:47 AM, ATMunn  wrote:

> What do you mean by pledging that you did something?
>
>
> On 11/18/2017 4:38 PM, VJ Rada wrote:
>
>> Yes, I will wait
>>
>> That reminds me? I think the statute of limitatins has passed since I  may
>> have failed to pay for that estate. I pledgw that I paid for the Estate of
>> Dawsburgen. Also, what happened to that CFJ?
>>
>> On Sun, Nov 19, 2017 at 5:43 AM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:
>>
>> If the payment occurred, I point the finger at the Treasuror for failing
>>> to distribute CuddleBeam’s 10 sh. payment to Agora in a timely fashion.
>>>
>>> (I believe that resolving this might have to wait until the associated
>>> CFJ
>>> 3595 is judged, but conditionally issuing a card on the same condition
>>> should work.)
>>>
>>> -o
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>


-- 
>From V.J. Rada

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Fingers

[Alex Smith]

On Sat, 2017-11-18 at 16:47 -0500, ATMunn wrote:
> What do you mean by pledging that you did something?

A pledge is basically like a promise. You can make promises about
things that happened in the past in addition to things that will happen
in the future, so I don't see why pledges would be any different.

-- 
ais523

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Minimal economic fix

[Corona]

Huh? Totally missed that! So embarrassing! Sorry G.

On 11/18/17, VJ Rada  wrote:
> People can buy stamps only once a month, so that's not really a problem i
> don't think.
>
> On Sun, Nov 19, 2017 at 9:21 AM, Corona 
> wrote:
>
>> I'm not sure how would pegging Floating Value to the number of sh.
>> Agora had at the end of the month would play out, but I object to
>> creating money by destroying other players' stamps - players can
>> create and destroy stamps at an unlimited rate, so they could set up
>> auto-trading contracts to earn arbitrary amounts of shinies.
>>
>> On 11/18/17, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > Coming at this from the other end, what are the minimum changes needed
>> > to make this economy function, including stamps?
>> > [I will wait before pending]
>> >
>> > I submit the following Proposal, 'Minimal Econ reforms', AI-2:
>> >
>> > 
>> >
>> > Amend Rule 2516 (Passive Income) to read:
>> >
>> >   The Treasuror CAN, once each month, and SHALL, in a timely
>> > fashion
>> >   after the start of each month, publish a Payday Notice. The
>> > effect
>> >   of such a Notice is to:
>> >
>> >  1. Destroy all Shinies in Agora's possession.
>> >
>> >  2. Create 25 Shinies in the possession of each player.
>> >
>> >  3. For each office, if a single player held that office for
>> > 16 or more days in the previous month and did not receive
>> > a card other than Green during that time for performance or
>> > nonperformance of that office's duties, create 10 shinies
>> > in the possession of that player.
>> >
>> >
>> > Amend Rule 2497 (Floating Value) to read:
>> >
>> >   Floating Value is a natural singleton switch, tracked by the
>> >   Treasuror.
>> >
>> >   The Treasuror CAN, once each month, and SHALL, in a timely
>> >   fashion after the start of each month, publish a valid Notice
>> >   of Agoran Productivity, containing eir best estimate of the
>> >   total number of shinies that were in Agora's possession at
>> >   the end of the previous month.  The Notice is invalid if the
>> >   estimate differs from the correct value by more than 10%, and
>> >   the error is publicly identified within one week of its
>> >   publication.
>> >
>> >   The effect of a valid Notice of Agoran Productivity is to flip
>> >   the Floating Value to the announced estimate.
>> >
>> >   The following Floating Derived Values are defined:
>> >
>> >   * Stamp Value: 1/5th of the Floating Value, rounded up.
>> >
>> >   * Pend Cost: 1/10th of the Floating Value, rounded up.
>> >
>> >   * CFJ Cost: 1/20th of the Floating Value, rounded up.
>> >
>> >   The Treasuror's weekly report includes all floating-derived
>> >   values defined by the Rules.
>> >
>> >
>> > Amend Rule 2498 (Economic Wins) by replacing:
>> >   If Agora owns at least as many Shinies as the current Stamp
>> > Value,
>> >   a player CAN, by announcement, destroy a Stamp e owns to cause
>> >   Agora to transfer the Stamp Value, in shinies, to emself.
>> > with:
>> >   A player CAN, by announcement, destroy a Stamp e owns to create,
>> >   in eir possession, a number of shinies equal the Stamp Value.
>> >   If the Stamp's creator was not the destroying player, half
>> >   the Stamp value (rounded up) in shinies are created in the
>> >   possession of the Stamp's creator.
>> >
>> > [Encourages stamp trading!!]
>> >
>> >
>> > Amend Rule 2499 (Welcome Packages) by replacing:
>> >   Agora transfers 50 shinies to em.
>> > with:
>> >   25 shinies are created in eir possession.
>> >
>> >
>> > Amend Rule 2483 (Economics) by replacing:
>> >   The Treasuror is the recordkeepor for shinies.
>> > with:
>> >   The Treasuror is an Office and the recordkeepor for shinies.
>> >
>> >
>> > Repeal Rule 2487 (Shiny Supply Level).
>> > Repeal Rule 2456 (The Treasuror).
>> > Repeal Rule 2500 (Action Points).
>> >
>> >
>> > Amend Rule 2445 (How to Pend a Proposal) by replacing:
>> > a) spending 1 Action Point, OR
>> >
>> > b) spending the current Pend Cost in shinies.
>> > with:
>> > a) spending the current Pend Cost in shinies, OR
>> >
>> > b) Without 2 Objections.  Players SHOULD object unless the
>> >proposal consists entirely of bug fixes or minor
>> >playability adjustments for the good of the game overall.
>> >
>> >
>> > Amend Rule 991 (Calls for Judgement) by replacing:
>> >   a) by announcement, and spending 1 Action Point, OR
>> >
>> >   b) by announcement, and spending the current CFJ cost in shinies,
>> >  OR
>> >
>> >   c) by announcement if e is not a player.
>> > with:
>> >   a) by announcement, and spending the current CFJ cost in shinies,
>> 

Re: DIS: GitHub request

[Owen Jacobson]

Nyet.

git submodule add https://github.com/AgoraNomic/Header _includes

will create an _includes subdirectory in the current directory, check out the 
current master of https://github.com/AgoraNomic/Header in it, and link that 
into the repository you’re working in as a submodule. This needs to be run in 
an existing clone of whatever repository you’re making changes to.

I have a few minutes, so I can send you a pull request that does this, if you 
point me at the repository you’re trying to make changes to. Feel free to 
contact me off-list, either at my email or on IRC, if you need a hand with Git: 
Git is notoriously difficult to work with.

-o

> On Nov 18, 2017, at 3:41 PM, ATMunn  wrote:
> 
> So here would I just do:
> 
>   git submodule add https://github.com/AgoraNomic/Header 
> https://github.com/AgoraNomic/ADoP-old/tree/master/_includes
> 
> On 11/18/2017 2:14 PM, Owen Jacobson wrote:
>> With the caveat that submodules have really bad user experience _even by the 
>> standards of Git’s awful UX_:
>>  git submodule add https://github.com/AgoraNomic/Header some-directory 
>> with “some-directory” replaced with whatever’s useful in the context where 
>> you want to include it.
>> To reconstruct submodules that already exist, either clone the repository 
>> with --recursive, or run git submodules update --init --recursive in an 
>> existing clone. (They do the same thing.)
>> -o
>>> On Nov 18, 2017, at 1:59 PM, ATMunn  wrote:
>>> 
>>> So, how would I get that into my new repo?
>>> 
>>> On 11/18/2017 1:45 PM, Owen Jacobson wrote:
 As Aris said, it’s a submodule. What you’re looking at there is the 
 metadata Git keeps to determine which repository, and which commit in that 
 other repository, to use to reconstruct that directory when needed.
 Fortunately, Github links through to the other repository. The root of 
 https://github.com/AgoraNomic/Header/tree/cefaeafa471d76d20482bd46d26c71ecc3345b05
  
 
  is used to fill in that directory.
 -o
> On Nov 18, 2017, at 11:49 AM, ATMunn  wrote:
> 
> I had tried to copy it, but there's no way to copy this 
> https://github.com/AgoraNomic/ADoP-old/tree/master/_includes as it 
> doesn't appear to be a file. I'm not very familiar with Git, so I have no 
> idea what that is or how it got there.
> 
> On 11/14/2017 2:31 PM, Aris Merchant wrote:
>> It's a submodule, which makes it weird. Copying the other one isn't a 
>> bad idea.
>> -Aris
>> On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 10:44 AM, ATMunn  wrote:
>>> Hm, I don't know how to include the header. I've tried to copy from the 
>>> old
>>> repo, but I'm having trouble with that. I'm considering just getting 
>>> rid of
>>> my new one and using the old one instead.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 11/14/2017 1:11 PM, ATMunn wrote:
 
 Yep, thanks.
 
 On 11/14/2017 1:02 PM, Aris Merchant wrote:
> 
> I'm presuming you're ATMunngit? If so, done.
> 
> -Aris
> 
> On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 9:35 AM, ATMunn  
> wrote:
>> 
>> I'd like to join the Agora GitHub group, so I can publish my ADoP
>> reports on
>> there.



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Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Minimal economic fix

[VJ Rada]

People can buy stamps only once a month, so that's not really a problem i
don't think.

On Sun, Nov 19, 2017 at 9:21 AM, Corona  wrote:

> I'm not sure how would pegging Floating Value to the number of sh.
> Agora had at the end of the month would play out, but I object to
> creating money by destroying other players' stamps - players can
> create and destroy stamps at an unlimited rate, so they could set up
> auto-trading contracts to earn arbitrary amounts of shinies.
>
> On 11/18/17, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
> >
> >
> > Coming at this from the other end, what are the minimum changes needed
> > to make this economy function, including stamps?
> > [I will wait before pending]
> >
> > I submit the following Proposal, 'Minimal Econ reforms', AI-2:
> >
> > 
> >
> > Amend Rule 2516 (Passive Income) to read:
> >
> >   The Treasuror CAN, once each month, and SHALL, in a timely fashion
> >   after the start of each month, publish a Payday Notice. The effect
> >   of such a Notice is to:
> >
> >  1. Destroy all Shinies in Agora's possession.
> >
> >  2. Create 25 Shinies in the possession of each player.
> >
> >  3. For each office, if a single player held that office for
> > 16 or more days in the previous month and did not receive
> > a card other than Green during that time for performance or
> > nonperformance of that office's duties, create 10 shinies
> > in the possession of that player.
> >
> >
> > Amend Rule 2497 (Floating Value) to read:
> >
> >   Floating Value is a natural singleton switch, tracked by the
> >   Treasuror.
> >
> >   The Treasuror CAN, once each month, and SHALL, in a timely
> >   fashion after the start of each month, publish a valid Notice
> >   of Agoran Productivity, containing eir best estimate of the
> >   total number of shinies that were in Agora's possession at
> >   the end of the previous month.  The Notice is invalid if the
> >   estimate differs from the correct value by more than 10%, and
> >   the error is publicly identified within one week of its
> >   publication.
> >
> >   The effect of a valid Notice of Agoran Productivity is to flip
> >   the Floating Value to the announced estimate.
> >
> >   The following Floating Derived Values are defined:
> >
> >   * Stamp Value: 1/5th of the Floating Value, rounded up.
> >
> >   * Pend Cost: 1/10th of the Floating Value, rounded up.
> >
> >   * CFJ Cost: 1/20th of the Floating Value, rounded up.
> >
> >   The Treasuror's weekly report includes all floating-derived
> >   values defined by the Rules.
> >
> >
> > Amend Rule 2498 (Economic Wins) by replacing:
> >   If Agora owns at least as many Shinies as the current Stamp Value,
> >   a player CAN, by announcement, destroy a Stamp e owns to cause
> >   Agora to transfer the Stamp Value, in shinies, to emself.
> > with:
> >   A player CAN, by announcement, destroy a Stamp e owns to create,
> >   in eir possession, a number of shinies equal the Stamp Value.
> >   If the Stamp's creator was not the destroying player, half
> >   the Stamp value (rounded up) in shinies are created in the
> >   possession of the Stamp's creator.
> >
> > [Encourages stamp trading!!]
> >
> >
> > Amend Rule 2499 (Welcome Packages) by replacing:
> >   Agora transfers 50 shinies to em.
> > with:
> >   25 shinies are created in eir possession.
> >
> >
> > Amend Rule 2483 (Economics) by replacing:
> >   The Treasuror is the recordkeepor for shinies.
> > with:
> >   The Treasuror is an Office and the recordkeepor for shinies.
> >
> >
> > Repeal Rule 2487 (Shiny Supply Level).
> > Repeal Rule 2456 (The Treasuror).
> > Repeal Rule 2500 (Action Points).
> >
> >
> > Amend Rule 2445 (How to Pend a Proposal) by replacing:
> > a) spending 1 Action Point, OR
> >
> > b) spending the current Pend Cost in shinies.
> > with:
> > a) spending the current Pend Cost in shinies, OR
> >
> > b) Without 2 Objections.  Players SHOULD object unless the
> >proposal consists entirely of bug fixes or minor
> >playability adjustments for the good of the game overall.
> >
> >
> > Amend Rule 991 (Calls for Judgement) by replacing:
> >   a) by announcement, and spending 1 Action Point, OR
> >
> >   b) by announcement, and spending the current CFJ cost in shinies,
> >  OR
> >
> >   c) by announcement if e is not a player.
> > with:
> >   a) by announcement, and spending the current CFJ cost in shinies,
> >  OR
> >
> >   b) Without 2 Objections.  Players SHOULD object unless paying
> >  with shinies is a significant barrier to the Caller's
> >  ability to seek a resolution to the controversy.
> >
> >
> > Amend Rule 

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Minimal economic fix

[Kerim Aydin]

On Sat, 18 Nov 2017, Corona wrote:
> I'm not sure how would pegging Floating Value to the number of sh.
> Agora had at the end of the month would play out,

Since Agora's shinies are destroyed right near the beginning of the month, 
the "end of the month balance" is meant to be an estimate of economic 
throughput.  The more active the economy, the more costs go up, which 
provides a brake (and vice versa).  Whole thing is anchored by fixed
baseline salary.

That's the theory, anyway - Will it reach a good equilibrium but with
some interesting fluctuations to gamble stamps on?  I Dunno!

> creating money by destroying other players' stamps - players can
> create and destroy stamps at an unlimited rate, so they could set up
> auto-trading contracts to earn arbitrary amounts of shinies.

Yah this assumed the 1/month limit is still there!

Re: DIS: The land reforms I kept on talking up

[Aris Merchant]

I have to agree with P.S.S. Promotor is already a lot of work, as (I'm
guessing) is Arbitor. I don't want to have to start tracking a part of
the economy in addition to proposals. I'd suggest pragmatising CFJs
and proposals. Make so that if the Arbitor assigns a CFJ, it exists,
with the Arbitor as caller (stops the recurrent "is this even a CFJ"
problem). Then change it so that if the Promotor or Arbitor have no
reason to believe that the pending of a proposal/initiation of a CFJ
failed (someone trying to do a hundred at once would be a pretty
strong clue, for instance) they have one nothing wrong, but the person
who purported to initiate the pend the proposal/initiate the CFJ is
eligible for a blue card. Increase the maximum penalty on a blue card
to two times the profit, to provide a strong incentive to keep track
of your currency totals.

-Aris



On Fri, Nov 17, 2017 at 5:42 PM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
 wrote:
> Why not just have one office for tracking all of them since they interact?
>
> On 11/17/2017 06:52 PM, Kerim Aydin wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, 17 Nov 2017, Reuben Staley wrote:
 * Define three “base” resources, and associated Zmet types. Let’s pretend
 they’re Ores, Fungi, and Chipmunks.

 * Define three “refined” resources (G.’s Sports, Coupons, and Widgets), and
 associated Zmet types.

 * To produce a Sports using a Zmet, the owner must destroy an Ore and a
 Fungus that they own.
>> My first draft of SimAgora had this kind of scheme, but I thought this many
>> currencies would be a nightmare for recordkeepors.  If I (as Arbitor) have
>> to track several things to know if a CFJ succeeded, it's a bit of a non-
>> starter.  That's why I limited harvests to once/month, and made the
>> recordkeepor of each key currency the office responsible for the action
>> (e.g. Promotor for the currency that pends things).
>>
>> I really like this sort of combo-system as a principle - but what do
>> recordkeepors think?
>>
>>
>
> --
> 
> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>
>

Re: DIS: GitHub request

[ATMunn]

So, how would I get that into my new repo?

On 11/18/2017 1:45 PM, Owen Jacobson wrote:

As Aris said, it’s a submodule. What you’re looking at there is the metadata 
Git keeps to determine which repository, and which commit in that other 
repository, to use to reconstruct that directory when needed.

Fortunately, Github links through to the other repository. The root of 
https://github.com/AgoraNomic/Header/tree/cefaeafa471d76d20482bd46d26c71ecc3345b05 

 is used to fill in that directory.

-o


On Nov 18, 2017, at 11:49 AM, ATMunn  wrote:

I had tried to copy it, but there's no way to copy this 
https://github.com/AgoraNomic/ADoP-old/tree/master/_includes as it doesn't 
appear to be a file. I'm not very familiar with Git, so I have no idea what 
that is or how it got there.

On 11/14/2017 2:31 PM, Aris Merchant wrote:

It's a submodule, which makes it weird. Copying the other one isn't a bad idea.
-Aris
On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 10:44 AM, ATMunn  wrote:

Hm, I don't know how to include the header. I've tried to copy from the old
repo, but I'm having trouble with that. I'm considering just getting rid of
my new one and using the old one instead.


On 11/14/2017 1:11 PM, ATMunn wrote:


Yep, thanks.

On 11/14/2017 1:02 PM, Aris Merchant wrote:


I'm presuming you're ATMunngit? If so, done.

-Aris

On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 9:35 AM, ATMunn  wrote:


I'd like to join the Agora GitHub group, so I can publish my ADoP
reports on
there.

Re: DIS: The land reforms I kept on talking up

[Kerim Aydin]

On Sat, 18 Nov 2017, Aris Merchant wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 7:51 AM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
> >
> > On Tue, 14 Nov 2017, ATMunn wrote:
> >> The only problem I see with this right off the bat is that G. has already 
> >> made
> >> a draft proposal dealing with land in a different way (see DIS: SimAgora
> >> 2000). These two proposals would probably
> >
> > Yes I agree we should do one or the other not both.  I don't mind which
> > really, but as per my earlier comments I'd want to see more purpose and
> > goals on this one first.
> 
> If this one were used (and I at least am leaning in favor of it at the
> moment), do you have any ideas that went into yours that might be good
> additions here?

I have a few concerns about Trigon's, but they're detail things (e.g. I'd
prefer not to ditch shinies, or at least have that be a separate decision).  
The way Trigon's is evolving, the main difference is whether the land 
units have geography (and related locational gameplay) or not.  Therefore 
Trigon's adds a layer to the same basic idea we both had.

So I'll put a bunch of detail comments in Trigon's next draft, and 
otherwise drop mine...

-G.

Re: DIS: Re: BUS:

[Kerim Aydin]

On Sat, 18 Nov 2017, ATMunn wrote:
> Haha, I think we've all forgotten about sarcasm online before.
> 
> Also, I believe that the "proposal" G. mentioned is not an actual proposal,
> but more of an outline for one. In in actual proposal, the numbers would
> likely be rounded to the nearest whole shiny.

Yes I was planning on adding "rounding up" so you could always change by
at least 1, but even without that you're right that the 10% doesn't scale 
particularly gracefully.

Re: DIS: GitHub request

[ATMunn]

So here would I just do:

git submodule add https://github.com/AgoraNomic/Header 
https://github.com/AgoraNomic/ADoP-old/tree/master/_includes

On 11/18/2017 2:14 PM, Owen Jacobson wrote:

With the caveat that submodules have really bad user experience _even by the 
standards of Git’s awful UX_:

	git submodule add https://github.com/AgoraNomic/Header some-directory 


with “some-directory” replaced with whatever’s useful in the context where you 
want to include it.

To reconstruct submodules that already exist, either clone the repository with 
--recursive, or run git submodules update --init --recursive in an existing 
clone. (They do the same thing.)

-o


On Nov 18, 2017, at 1:59 PM, ATMunn  wrote:

So, how would I get that into my new repo?

On 11/18/2017 1:45 PM, Owen Jacobson wrote:

As Aris said, it’s a submodule. What you’re looking at there is the metadata 
Git keeps to determine which repository, and which commit in that other 
repository, to use to reconstruct that directory when needed.
Fortunately, Github links through to the other repository. The root of 
https://github.com/AgoraNomic/Header/tree/cefaeafa471d76d20482bd46d26c71ecc3345b05 

 is used to fill in that directory.
-o

On Nov 18, 2017, at 11:49 AM, ATMunn  wrote:

I had tried to copy it, but there's no way to copy this 
https://github.com/AgoraNomic/ADoP-old/tree/master/_includes as it doesn't 
appear to be a file. I'm not very familiar with Git, so I have no idea what 
that is or how it got there.

On 11/14/2017 2:31 PM, Aris Merchant wrote:

It's a submodule, which makes it weird. Copying the other one isn't a bad idea.
-Aris
On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 10:44 AM, ATMunn  wrote:

Hm, I don't know how to include the header. I've tried to copy from the old
repo, but I'm having trouble with that. I'm considering just getting rid of
my new one and using the old one instead.


On 11/14/2017 1:11 PM, ATMunn wrote:


Yep, thanks.

On 11/14/2017 1:02 PM, Aris Merchant wrote:


I'm presuming you're ATMunngit? If so, done.

-Aris

On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 9:35 AM, ATMunn  wrote:


I'd like to join the Agora GitHub group, so I can publish my ADoP
reports on
there.

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Fingers

[ATMunn]

Makes sense.

On 11/18/2017 4:53 PM, Owen Jacobson wrote:

On 11/18/2017 4:38 PM, VJ Rada wrote:


I pledgw that I paid for the Estate of Dawsburgen.


On Nov 18, 2017, at 4:47 PM, ATMunn wrote:


What do you mean by pledging that you did something?


Under the current rules, pledges don’t do anything on their own, and there’s no 
formal connection between the text of a pledge and the punishment for having it 
called in. A promise that something was done seems straightforward enough: if 
it turns out that it wasn’t, we should call in the pledge.

-o

DIS: Re: BUS: Dumb proposal

[Alexis Hunt]

I still object.

On Sat, Nov 18, 2017, 17:13 VJ Rada,  wrote:

> Actually my intent was ineffective (no reason given).
>
> Let's try again: I intend to call in ATMunn's pledge stating e will pend or
> retract eir proposal in 7 days, with Agoran consent, for the reason that e
> did neither within the time given.
>
> On Sun, Nov 19, 2017 at 9:09 AM, Alexis Hunt  wrote:
>
> > I object.
> >
> > On Sat, Nov 18, 2017, 17:07 VJ Rada,  wrote:
> >
> > > I object and intend to call in the pledge with Agoran consent.
> > >
> > > On Sun, Nov 19, 2017 at 9:04 AM, ATMunn 
> wrote:
> > >
> > > > I intend to retract this pledge without objection.
> > > > Please don't try to call it in kthxbye
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 11/6/2017 12:50 PM, ATMunn wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> I pledge to either pend or withdraw the below proposal before the
> > > >> beginning of the next Agoran week.
> > > >>
> > > >> I submit the following proposal:
> > > >>
> > > >> Title: "But I already live there!"
> > > >> AI: 1
> > > >>
> > > >> Amend rule 2474 "Green Cards" by replacing the text "the United
> > States"
> > > >> with "Brazil".
> > > >>
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > From V.J. Rada
> > >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> From V.J. Rada
>

Re: DIS: The land reforms I kept on talking up

[Aris Merchant]

On Fri, Nov 17, 2017 at 3:54 PM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:
> On Nov 17, 2017, at 6:52 PM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
>
>> I really like this sort of combo-system as a principle - but what do
>> recordkeepors think?
>
> I’d be up for it on a trial basis. It _is_ a lot to keep track of, though.
>
> -o
>

If we had one officer track it, it shouldn't be all that much more
work than the current economy.

-Aris

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Fingers

[ATMunn]

What do you mean by pledging that you did something?

On 11/18/2017 4:38 PM, VJ Rada wrote:

Yes, I will wait

That reminds me? I think the statute of limitatins has passed since I  may
have failed to pay for that estate. I pledgw that I paid for the Estate of
Dawsburgen. Also, what happened to that CFJ?

On Sun, Nov 19, 2017 at 5:43 AM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:


If the payment occurred, I point the finger at the Treasuror for failing
to distribute CuddleBeam’s 10 sh. payment to Agora in a timely fashion.

(I believe that resolving this might have to wait until the associated CFJ
3595 is judged, but conditionally issuing a card on the same condition
should work.)

-o

Re: DIS: The land reforms I kept on talking up

[Aris Merchant]

On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 7:51 AM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
>
>
> On Tue, 14 Nov 2017, ATMunn wrote:
>> The only problem I see with this right off the bat is that G. has already 
>> made
>> a draft proposal dealing with land in a different way (see DIS: SimAgora
>> 2000). These two proposals would probably
>
> Yes I agree we should do one or the other not both.  I don't mind which
> really, but as per my earlier comments I'd want to see more purpose and
> goals on this one first.

If this one were used (and I at least am leaning in favor of it at the
moment), do you have any ideas that went into yours that might be good
additions here?

-Aris

Re: DIS: The land reforms I kept on talking up

[Reuben Staley]

I was planning on having the Treasuror track all the currencies when I
wrote up my revised report until people brought up the idea of different
officers doing it. I guess the people who track each of them should be
decided by you all.

Additionally, maybe giving monetary rewards to people who track eir
transactions and resulting balances could help balance the work, which is
something I was considering.

--
Trigon

On Nov 18, 2017 4:27 PM, "Aris Merchant" 
wrote:

On Fri, Nov 17, 2017 at 3:54 PM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:
> On Nov 17, 2017, at 6:52 PM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
>
>> I really like this sort of combo-system as a principle - but what do
>> recordkeepors think?
>
> I’d be up for it on a trial basis. It _is_ a lot to keep track of, though.
>
> -o
>

If we had one officer track it, it shouldn't be all that much more
work than the current economy.

-Aris

DIS: Re: BUS: Fingers

[VJ Rada]

Yes, I will wait

That reminds me? I think the statute of limitatins has passed since I  may
have failed to pay for that estate. I pledgw that I paid for the Estate of
Dawsburgen. Also, what happened to that CFJ?

On Sun, Nov 19, 2017 at 5:43 AM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:

> If the payment occurred, I point the finger at the Treasuror for failing
> to distribute CuddleBeam’s 10 sh. payment to Agora in a timely fashion.
>
> (I believe that resolving this might have to wait until the associated CFJ
> 3595 is judged, but conditionally issuing a card on the same condition
> should work.)
>
> -o
>
>


-- 
>From V.J. Rada

Re: DIS: CoE on FLR

[Alexis Hunt]

Fixed, thanks.

On Fri, 17 Nov 2017 at 16:05 Kerim Aydin  wrote:

>
>
> (In discussion so unofficial):
>
> Missing whitespace in R869, likely from re-wrapping:
>   CANNOT otherwise bind a person to abide by any agreementwithout
>
>
>
>

Re: DIS: Re: OFF: [Rulekeepor] Short Logical Ruleset

[Alexis Hunt]

On Sat, 18 Nov 2017 at 21:43 ATMunn  wrote:

> Unofficial CoE: Miscelaneous is spelled wrong, it should be miscellaneous.


Noted, but I want to redo these categories anyhow.

Re: DIS: GitHub request

[Owen Jacobson]

As Aris said, it’s a submodule. What you’re looking at there is the metadata 
Git keeps to determine which repository, and which commit in that other 
repository, to use to reconstruct that directory when needed.

Fortunately, Github links through to the other repository. The root of 
https://github.com/AgoraNomic/Header/tree/cefaeafa471d76d20482bd46d26c71ecc3345b05
 

 is used to fill in that directory.

-o

> On Nov 18, 2017, at 11:49 AM, ATMunn  wrote:
> 
> I had tried to copy it, but there's no way to copy this 
> https://github.com/AgoraNomic/ADoP-old/tree/master/_includes as it doesn't 
> appear to be a file. I'm not very familiar with Git, so I have no idea what 
> that is or how it got there.
> 
> On 11/14/2017 2:31 PM, Aris Merchant wrote:
>> It's a submodule, which makes it weird. Copying the other one isn't a bad 
>> idea.
>> -Aris
>> On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 10:44 AM, ATMunn  wrote:
>>> Hm, I don't know how to include the header. I've tried to copy from the old
>>> repo, but I'm having trouble with that. I'm considering just getting rid of
>>> my new one and using the old one instead.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 11/14/2017 1:11 PM, ATMunn wrote:
 
 Yep, thanks.
 
 On 11/14/2017 1:02 PM, Aris Merchant wrote:
> 
> I'm presuming you're ATMunngit? If so, done.
> 
> -Aris
> 
> On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 9:35 AM, ATMunn  wrote:
>> 
>> I'd like to join the Agora GitHub group, so I can publish my ADoP
>> reports on
>> there.



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Re: DIS: GitHub request

[Owen Jacobson]

> On Nov 18, 2017, at 1:45 PM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:
> 
> As Aris said, it’s a submodule. What you’re looking at there is the metadata 
> Git keeps to determine which repository, and which commit in that other 
> repository, to use to reconstruct that directory when needed.
> 
> Fortunately, Github links through to the other repository. The root of 
> https://github.com/AgoraNomic/Header/tree/cefaeafa471d76d20482bd46d26c71ecc3345b05
>  
> 
>  is used to fill in that directory.

To the Right Honourable Listserv Admin: is there a way to write emails such 
that links won’t be doubled like this?

-o



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Re: DIS: GitHub request

[Alex Smith]

On Sat, 2017-11-18 at 13:46 -0500, Owen Jacobson wrote:
> > On Nov 18, 2017, at 1:45 PM, Owen Jacobson 
> > wrote:
> > 
> > As Aris said, it’s a submodule. What you’re looking at there is the
> > metadata Git keeps to determine which repository, and which commit
> > in that other repository, to use to reconstruct that directory when
> > needed.
> > 
> > Fortunately, Github links through to the other repository. The root
> > of https://github.com/AgoraNomic/Header/tree/cefaeafa471d76d20482bd
> > 46d26c71ecc3345b05  > afa471d76d20482bd46d26c71ecc3345b05> is used to fill in that
> > directory.
> 
> To the Right Honourable Listserv Admin: is there a way to write
> emails such that links won’t be doubled like this?

This depends on your email client, not the list server itself. It
should have a setting called something like "send emails in plain
text"; if you use that for Agora, the links won't be doubled.

(Presumably what's happening is that your client is automatically
converting your email to HTML, then automatically converting it back to
plaintext for the plaintext portion; that double-conversion is what
doubles the links.)

-- 
ais523

Re: DIS: The land reforms I kept on talking up

[Alex Smith]

On Sat, 2017-11-18 at 10:32 -0800, Corona wrote:
> Yeah, and there's the anti-ossification rule for the worst case.
> By the way, could someone explain to me what is the distinction
> between the possibility and legality of an action in Agora? From what
> I gather, it seems to be that illegal actions can change the game
> state if no one calls you out on it, is that right?

Impossible actions are ones that there's no point in trying to do
because they fail and have no effect. (Under certain past rulesets, it
was against the rules to attempt them, too, but AFAICT that isn't the
case at the moment.) For example, attempting to rewrite a rule by
announcement (without a rule specifically permitting you to) is
impossible; you just can't do it. And obviously, it would be
problematic if we did allow it to work, because then someone could
change the rules to retroactively make their action acceptable; so we
don't allow it at all.

Illegal actions are ones that players are not allowed, according to the
rules, to attempt; however, if they nonetheless try it, the action
succeeds (and the perpetrator is likely to get punished). This is
normally used to avoid having to rewind the gamestate in the case that
an officer makes a mistake. For example, if the Promotor accidentally
distributes a proposal that isn't pending, it's in the best interests
of the game to allow the proposal to be enacted anyway, even if someone
points the fact out; but e shouldn't have done that, and might receive
a punishment (in the current rules, a Card) for it.

-- 
ais523

Re: DIS: GitHub request

[Owen Jacobson]

With the caveat that submodules have really bad user experience _even by the 
standards of Git’s awful UX_:

git submodule add https://github.com/AgoraNomic/Header some-directory

with “some-directory” replaced with whatever’s useful in the context where you 
want to include it.

To reconstruct submodules that already exist, either clone the repository with 
--recursive, or run git submodules update --init --recursive in an existing 
clone. (They do the same thing.)

-o

> On Nov 18, 2017, at 1:59 PM, ATMunn  wrote:
> 
> So, how would I get that into my new repo?
> 
> On 11/18/2017 1:45 PM, Owen Jacobson wrote:
>> As Aris said, it’s a submodule. What you’re looking at there is the metadata 
>> Git keeps to determine which repository, and which commit in that other 
>> repository, to use to reconstruct that directory when needed.
>> Fortunately, Github links through to the other repository. The root of 
>> https://github.com/AgoraNomic/Header/tree/cefaeafa471d76d20482bd46d26c71ecc3345b05
>>  
>> 
>>  is used to fill in that directory.
>> -o
>>> On Nov 18, 2017, at 11:49 AM, ATMunn  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I had tried to copy it, but there's no way to copy this 
>>> https://github.com/AgoraNomic/ADoP-old/tree/master/_includes as it doesn't 
>>> appear to be a file. I'm not very familiar with Git, so I have no idea what 
>>> that is or how it got there.
>>> 
>>> On 11/14/2017 2:31 PM, Aris Merchant wrote:
 It's a submodule, which makes it weird. Copying the other one isn't a bad 
 idea.
 -Aris
 On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 10:44 AM, ATMunn  wrote:
> Hm, I don't know how to include the header. I've tried to copy from the 
> old
> repo, but I'm having trouble with that. I'm considering just getting rid 
> of
> my new one and using the old one instead.
> 
> 
> On 11/14/2017 1:11 PM, ATMunn wrote:
>> 
>> Yep, thanks.
>> 
>> On 11/14/2017 1:02 PM, Aris Merchant wrote:
>>> 
>>> I'm presuming you're ATMunngit? If so, done.
>>> 
>>> -Aris
>>> 
>>> On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 9:35 AM, ATMunn  wrote:
 
 I'd like to join the Agora GitHub group, so I can publish my ADoP
 reports on
 there.



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DIS: Re: BUS: Minimal economic fix

[Corona]

I'm not sure how would pegging Floating Value to the number of sh.
Agora had at the end of the month would play out, but I object to
creating money by destroying other players' stamps - players can
create and destroy stamps at an unlimited rate, so they could set up
auto-trading contracts to earn arbitrary amounts of shinies.

On 11/18/17, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
>
>
> Coming at this from the other end, what are the minimum changes needed
> to make this economy function, including stamps?
> [I will wait before pending]
>
> I submit the following Proposal, 'Minimal Econ reforms', AI-2:
>
> 
>
> Amend Rule 2516 (Passive Income) to read:
>
>   The Treasuror CAN, once each month, and SHALL, in a timely fashion
>   after the start of each month, publish a Payday Notice. The effect
>   of such a Notice is to:
>
>  1. Destroy all Shinies in Agora's possession.
>
>  2. Create 25 Shinies in the possession of each player.
>
>  3. For each office, if a single player held that office for
> 16 or more days in the previous month and did not receive
> a card other than Green during that time for performance or
> nonperformance of that office's duties, create 10 shinies
> in the possession of that player.
>
>
> Amend Rule 2497 (Floating Value) to read:
>
>   Floating Value is a natural singleton switch, tracked by the
>   Treasuror.
>
>   The Treasuror CAN, once each month, and SHALL, in a timely
>   fashion after the start of each month, publish a valid Notice
>   of Agoran Productivity, containing eir best estimate of the
>   total number of shinies that were in Agora's possession at
>   the end of the previous month.  The Notice is invalid if the
>   estimate differs from the correct value by more than 10%, and
>   the error is publicly identified within one week of its
>   publication.
>
>   The effect of a valid Notice of Agoran Productivity is to flip
>   the Floating Value to the announced estimate.
>
>   The following Floating Derived Values are defined:
>
>   * Stamp Value: 1/5th of the Floating Value, rounded up.
>
>   * Pend Cost: 1/10th of the Floating Value, rounded up.
>
>   * CFJ Cost: 1/20th of the Floating Value, rounded up.
>
>   The Treasuror's weekly report includes all floating-derived
>   values defined by the Rules.
>
>
> Amend Rule 2498 (Economic Wins) by replacing:
>   If Agora owns at least as many Shinies as the current Stamp Value,
>   a player CAN, by announcement, destroy a Stamp e owns to cause
>   Agora to transfer the Stamp Value, in shinies, to emself.
> with:
>   A player CAN, by announcement, destroy a Stamp e owns to create,
>   in eir possession, a number of shinies equal the Stamp Value.
>   If the Stamp's creator was not the destroying player, half
>   the Stamp value (rounded up) in shinies are created in the
>   possession of the Stamp's creator.
>
> [Encourages stamp trading!!]
>
>
> Amend Rule 2499 (Welcome Packages) by replacing:
>   Agora transfers 50 shinies to em.
> with:
>   25 shinies are created in eir possession.
>
>
> Amend Rule 2483 (Economics) by replacing:
>   The Treasuror is the recordkeepor for shinies.
> with:
>   The Treasuror is an Office and the recordkeepor for shinies.
>
>
> Repeal Rule 2487 (Shiny Supply Level).
> Repeal Rule 2456 (The Treasuror).
> Repeal Rule 2500 (Action Points).
>
>
> Amend Rule 2445 (How to Pend a Proposal) by replacing:
> a) spending 1 Action Point, OR
>
> b) spending the current Pend Cost in shinies.
> with:
> a) spending the current Pend Cost in shinies, OR
>
> b) Without 2 Objections.  Players SHOULD object unless the
>proposal consists entirely of bug fixes or minor
>playability adjustments for the good of the game overall.
>
>
> Amend Rule 991 (Calls for Judgement) by replacing:
>   a) by announcement, and spending 1 Action Point, OR
>
>   b) by announcement, and spending the current CFJ cost in shinies,
>  OR
>
>   c) by announcement if e is not a player.
> with:
>   a) by announcement, and spending the current CFJ cost in shinies,
>  OR
>
>   b) Without 2 Objections.  Players SHOULD object unless paying
>  with shinies is a significant barrier to the Caller's
>  ability to seek a resolution to the controversy.
>
>
> Amend Rule 2496 (Rewards) to read in full:
>   A Reward is a specified amount of a currency associated with a
>   Reward Condition. For each time a player meets a Reward Condition,
>   e CAN claim the specified award, by announcement, exactly once
>   within 24 hours of meeting the Reward Condition.  When a player
>   'claims' a Reward, Agora transfers the specified amount of that
>   currency 

Re: DIS: The land reforms I kept on talking up

[ATMunn]

See rule 2152, "Mother May I?"

An action that is ILLEGAL is something that can be done, but it violates the 
rule in question. Doing something ILLEGAL will, unless it somehow goes 
uncaught, result in a card. Most of the time, the action still works, though.

An IMPOSSIBLE action is literally that, impossible. Attempts to perform that 
action literally do nothing.

On 11/18/2017 1:32 PM, Corona wrote:

Yeah, and there's the anti-ossification rule for the worst case.
By the way, could someone explain to me what is the distinction
between the possibility and legality of an action in Agora? From what
I gather, it seems to be that illegal actions can change the game
state if no one calls you out on it, is that right?

On 11/17/17, Alex Smith  wrote:

On Fri, 2017-11-17 at 19:38 -0700, Reuben Staley wrote:

Oh, another thing: We'll need some way for all players currently

registered to get some of these currencies, otherwise Agora will
be stuck forever, as nobody will be able to write proposals..


Yes, we do need to do that.


There are at least four emergency methods of keeping the nomic going if
something goes wrong with the pending mechanism (distribute a
nonpending proposal without three objections, illegal but possible
distribution of a nonpending proposal by the Promotor, distribution of
a nonpending proposal by the Prime Minister, impossible but self-
ratifying resolution of a nonexistent proposal by the Assessor that
subsequently cause a rule change when it self-ratifies).

Ideally, though, we wouldn't have to use them.

--
ais523

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Fingers

[Owen Jacobson]

On 11/18/2017 4:38 PM, VJ Rada wrote:

> I pledgw that I paid for the Estate of Dawsburgen.

On Nov 18, 2017, at 4:47 PM, ATMunn wrote:

> What do you mean by pledging that you did something?

Under the current rules, pledges don’t do anything on their own, and there’s no 
formal connection between the text of a pledge and the punishment for having it 
called in. A promise that something was done seems straightforward enough: if 
it turns out that it wasn’t, we should call in the pledge.

-o



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DIS: Gimme CFJs

[Corona]

I volunteer for the "Night court" (I do indeed have enough time to
assign judgements in 4 days).

DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Rulekeepor] Full Logical Ruleset

[Alexis Hunt]

Nice catch, fixed.

On Sat, 18 Nov 2017 at 13:52 Corona  wrote:

> Claim of Error:
>
> R2452 "Trust Tokens", annotation CFJ 3569 - [...] C does not thereby
> issue a Trust Token to A.
>
> Should be replaced with (without the asterisks): *A* does not thereby
> issue a Trust Token to *C*.
>
> On 11/16/17, Alexis Hunt  wrote:
> > THE FULL LOGICAL RULESET
> >
> > 
> > Agora
> > 
> > Rule 101/17 (Power=4.0)
> > The Game of Agora
> >
> >   Agora is a game of Nomic, wherein Persons, acting in accordance
> >   with the Rules, communicate their game Actions and/or results of
> >   these actions via Fora in order to play the game. The game may be
> >   won, but the game never ends.
> >
> >   Please treat Agora Right Good Forever.
> >
> > History:
> > Initial Immutable Rule 101 at Agora's birth, Jun 30, 1993
> > Mutated from MI=unanimity to MI=3 by Proposal 1480, Mar 15, 1995
> > Amended(1) by Proposal 3915 (harvel), Sep 27, 1999
> > Amended(2) by Proposal 4833 (Maud), Aug 06, 2005
> > Amended(3) by Proposal 4866 (G.), Aug 27, 2006
> > Amended(4) by Proposal 4867 (G.), Aug 27, 2006
> > Amended(5) by Proposal 4887 (Murphy), Jan 22, 2007
> > Amended(6) by Proposal 4944 (Zefram), May 03, 2007
> > Amended(7) by Proposal 5090 (Zefram), Jul 25, 2007
> > Amended(8) by Proposal 5731 [disinterested] (G.), Oct 08, 2008
> > Retitled by Proposal 5769 (G.), Oct 17, 2008
> > Amended(9) by Proposal 5769 (G.), Oct 17, 2008
> > Amended(10) by Proposal 5773 (G.), Oct 17, 2008
> > Amended(11) by Proposal 6028 (Murphy), Jan 08, 2009
> > Amended(12) by Proposal 6158 (G.), Mar 31, 2009
> > Amended(13) by Proposal 6589 [disinterested] (omd), Dec 06, 2009
> > Amended(14) by Proposal 7183 (G.), Feb 26, 2012
> > Amended(15) by Proposal 7596 (omd), Sep 14, 2013
> > Retitled by Proposal 7614 (G.), Jan 13, 2014
> > Amended(16) by Proposal 7614 (G.), Jan 13, 2014
> > Amended(17) by Proposal 7743 (G.), May 12, 2015
> > Power changed from power 3.0 to 4.0 by Proposal 7889 "Agora Protection
> >   Act" (Aris), Sep 26, 2017
> >
> > Annotations:
> > CFJ 24:
> >   Players must obey the Rules even in out-of-game actions.
> > CFJ 825 (called Nov 07, 1995):
> >   Players must obey the Rules even if no Rule says so.
> > CFJ 1848 (called Dec 21, 2007):
> >   The game must operate according to the rules that prevail at the time,
> >   and not attempt to incorporate any retroactive changes made in the
> >   future.
> > CFJ 1709 (called Jul 26, 2007):
> >   The rules are binding on all those who play the game in the broader
> >   sense, regardless of whether they have the rule-defined status of
> >   "player".
> > CFJ 1911-1914 (called Mar 18, 2008):
> >   Physical realities supersede the Rules by default.
> >
> > 
> > Rule 1698/5 (Power=4.0)
> > Agora Is A Nomic
> >
> >   Agora is ossified if it is IMPOSSIBLE for any reasonable
> >   combination of actions by players to cause arbitrary rule changes
> >   to be made and/or arbitrary proposals to be adopted within a
> >   four-week period.
> >
> >   If, but for this rule, the net effect of a proposal would cause
> >   Agora to become ossified, or would cause Agora to cease to exist,
> >   it cannot take effect, rules to the contrary notwithstanding. If
> >   any other single change or inseperable group of changes to the
> >   gamestate would cause Agora to become ossified, or would cause
> >   Agora to cease to exist, it is cancelled and does not occur, rules
> >   to the contrary notwithstanding.
> >
> > History:
> > Enacted by Proposal 3465 (Steve), Apr 26, 1997
> > Retitled by Proposal 5536 (Murphy), Jun 07, 2008
> > Amended(1) by Proposal 5536 (Murphy), Jun 07, 2008
> > Amended(2) by Proposal 7075 (Alexis), Jun 16, 2011
> > Amended(3) by Proposal 7088 (omd), Jul 23, 2011
> > Amended(4) by Proposal 7628 (ais523), Apr 07, 2014
> > Amended(5) by Proposal 7889 "Agora Protection Act" (Aris), Sep 26,
> >   2017
> > Power changed from power 3.0 to 4.0 by Proposal 7889 "Agora Protection
> >   Act" (Aris), Sep 26, 2017
> >
> > Annotations:
> >
> > 
> > Rule 478/34 (Power=3.0)
> > Fora
> >
> >   Freedom of speech being essential for the healthy functioning of
> >   any non-Imperial nomic, it is hereby resolved that no Player shall
> >   be prohibited from participating in the Fora, nor shall any person
> >   create physical or technological obstacles that unduly favor some
> >   players' fora access over others.
> >
> >   Publicity is a forum switch with values Public, Discussion, and
> >   Foreign (default), tracked by the Registrar. Changes to publicity
> >   are secured.
> >
> >   The 

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [ADoP] Initiating Decisions Correctly

[Ørjan Johansen]

On Mon, 6 Nov 2017, Josh T wrote:


Apparently, I just need to cast a vote to avoid being given a humiliating
reminder, so for all pending proposals whose valid options include FOR and
AGAINST, I vote PURPLE. I understand this is effectively "PRESENT", but
that's not what I'm casting it as in case if there is something silly that
I missed and there's a distinction therein.


Rule 683 §4 requires that a ballot specifies a valid vote, which PURPLE 
isn't.  So I don't think it counts even as PRESENT.


Greetings,
Ørjan.

Re: DIS: Re: OFF: [Promotor] Distribution of Proposals 7965-7972

[Ørjan Johansen]

Um, nope, still discussion.

Greetings,
Ørjan.

On Thu, 16 Nov 2017, VJ Rada wrote:


thanks telnaior. pf.

On Mon, Nov 13, 2017 at 10:49 AM, VJ Rada  wrote:


I vote

ID Author(s)  AI   TitlePender  Pend
fee

---
7965*  Trigon 3.0  One pronoun fix  Trigon  1 AP
FOR: Obviously nobody could conceivably object to this
7966*  ATMunn 1.0  But I already live there!o   1 AP
AGAINST: people associate Green Cards with the United States, not
Brazil. I'm sure a majority of us are American (although some are
not), but this just makes it a strange joke that nobody will get
(admittedly, not an alient concept in this game)
7967*  V.J. Rada  1.0  Rhyming sux tbh  V.J. Rada   1 AP
FOR
7968*  Alexis, [3]2.0  Backed Out the Door  Alexis  OP
[1][2]
FOR (I promised Telnaior I would)
7969*  V.J. Rada, [4] 3.0  Obvious fix  V.J. Rada   2 sh.
FOR
7970*  V.J. Rada  2.0  Referee Minor FixV.J. Rada   2 sh.
FOR
7971*  V.J. Rada, [4] 3.0  Cleanup Time V.J. Rada   2 sh.
FOR (Remember your pledge, Alexis)
7972*  G. 2.0  Silly Tweaks G.  1 AP
FOR (hope it gets repealed)

On Mon, Nov 13, 2017 at 10:24 AM, Aris Merchant
 wrote:

I hereby distribute each listed proposal, initiating the Agoran
Decision of whether to adopt it, and removing it from the proposal
pool. For this decision, the vote collector is the Assessor, the
quorum is 7.0, the voting method is AI-majority, and the valid
options are FOR and AGAINST (PRESENT is also a valid vote, as
are conditional votes).

ID Author(s)  AI   TitlePender  Pend

fee



---

7965*  Trigon 3.0  One pronoun fix  Trigon  1 AP
7966*  ATMunn 1.0  But I already live there!o   1 AP
7967*  V.J. Rada  1.0  Rhyming sux tbh  V.J. Rada   1 AP
7968*  Alexis, [3]2.0  Backed Out the Door  Alexis  OP

[1][2]

7969*  V.J. Rada, [4] 3.0  Obvious fix  V.J. Rada   2 sh.
7970*  V.J. Rada  2.0  Referee Minor FixV.J. Rada   2 sh.
7971*  V.J. Rada, [4] 3.0  Cleanup Time V.J. Rada   2 sh.
7972*  G. 2.0  Silly Tweaks G.  1 AP

The proposal pool currently contains the following proposals:

ID   Author(s) AI   Title


---

pp1  Alexis1.7  A Most Ingenious Paradox
pp2  ATMunn, [4]   1.0  [5]


Legend: * : Proposal is pending.

[1] Official Proposal, inherently pending
[2] The official status of this proposal is disputed. If it is not

official,

it has been pended by Aris for 1 AP
[3] Telnaior, ais523, Aris, G.
[4] Alexis
[5] No title


A proposal may be pended for 1 AP, or for 1/20th the Floating Value
in shines (see the Treasuror's report).

The full text of the aforementioned proposals is included below.

//
ID: 7965
Title: One pronoun fix
Adoption index: 3.0
Author: Trigon
Co-authors:


Replace the word "his" in the second paragraph of Rule 2438 ("Ribbons")

with

"eir".

//
ID: 7966
Title: But I already live there
Adoption index: 1.0
Author: Trigon
Co-authors:


Amend rule 2474 "Green Cards" by replacing the text "the United States"

with

"Brazil".

//
ID: 7967
Title: Rhyming sux tbh
Adoption index: 1.0
Author: V.J. Rada
Co-authors:


Repeal rule 1650, "Silliness"
Repeal the rule called "Poetry Duel Challenge Writ

//
ID: 7968
Title: Backed Out the Door
Adoption index: 2.0
Author: Alexis
Co-authors: Telnaior, ais523, Aris, G.


Enact a new power-2 rule entitled "Political Parties", reading as
follows:

  There are 5 Parties, in order:

  - Platonic Isolationists
  - New Punchbowl Reformers
  - Costume Conservatives
  - Substance Use Liberals
  - Official Raving Monster Looney Party

  Politicians are entities; each Politician has a name and an
  associated Party. Politicians exist only as specified by the
  rules. Creating, altering, or destroying Politicians is secured.

  If there are ever fewer than 20 Politicians, then the Clork CAN
  and SHALL, by announcement, create a new Politician, specifying
  eir Party and name. The Party must be selected at random from:

  - If any Party has fewer than 3 Politicans, the Party or Parties
with the fewest.
  - Otherwise, the Parties with fewer than 5 Politicians.

Enact a new power-2 rule entitled "Clork", reading as follows:

  The 

Re: DIS: The land reforms I kept on talking up

[Reuben Staley]

On 11/18/2017 9:37 PM, Aris Merchant wrote:

On Mon, Nov 13, 2017 at 9:17 PM, Reuben Staley  wrote:

I'm done with a very, very rough draft of this proposal. Tell me how you all
think it looks.

=

Title: "Putting Agora on a Map"
AI: 2
Author: Trigon
Co-Authors:

The square brackets are not proposal text and all that jazz.

[ PART I: Removing and Changing Stuff ]

Repeal rules 2488, 2489, 2490, and 2491.

[ I honestly tried to keep the estates, but these changes are so radical
   that it wouldn't be compatible. ]


If you wanted to pay the estate owner something, I'd suggest giving
each estate owner one of your new pieces of land. It makes
metaphorical sense (the estates just have positions now) and is quite
fair. You might also start them off on their new land, as a bonus.


Sure. Okay.



Amend rule 2500 by replacing "2" with "6".

Replace all instances of "1 Action Point" with "3 Action Points" in the
order they appear.

[ Unlike most reforms, I want to keep AP around, mostly because the 2003
   version had "Action Units" which were a similar concept. I reworked it
   though, so here you go. ]

[PART II: Making Land]

Re-enact rule 1993/1 (Power=2) "The Land of Arcadia" with the text:

   Arcadia is a land entirely defined by the Arcadian Map (the Map).
   The Map is a record kept by the Office of the Cartographor.

   The Map divides Arcadia into a finite, discrete number of Units of
   Land, or simply Land. Each Unit of Land is an indestructible asset
   specified by a pair of integers known as its Latitude and
   Longitude.

   Every unique pair of integers within the limits defined in the
   Rules for Latitude and Longitude signifies an existent Unit of
   Land. No other Units of Land exist. Units of Land SHALL only be
   created or destroyed by changing the limits of Latitude and
   Longitude defined in the Rules.

   All values for Latitude and Longitude MUST lie between -9 and +9,
   inclusive.

   The Total Land Area of Arcadia is the number of existent Units of
   Land defined by permissible Latitude and Longitude pairs.

Re-enact rule 1994/0 (Power=2) "Ownership of Land" with the text:

   Any existent Land for which ownership has not been explicitly
   changed belongs to Agora.

   Land belonging to Agora is called Public Land. Land belonging to
   a contract is called Communal Land. Land belonging to any other
   entity is called Private Land. Together, Communal Land and Private
   Land are called Proprietary Land.

   Changes in Land ownership are secured, unless:

   1. The Land Unit is Public, and the transfer is specifically
  permitted by the rules;

   2. The Land Unit is Communal, and the transfer is specifically
  permitted by the Contract that owns it;

   3. The Land Unit is Private, and the entity that owns it announces
  the transfer.


This is probably unneeded. The assets rule specifies most of this
stuff, and adding it here isn't helpful. Transfers from Agora are
always permitted if there's language like "X CAN transfer Y from Agora
to Z", so you don't need to define any of it. Just define Public and
Proprietary land.


So I should just have the first two paragraphs plus the little "changes 
are secured" thing?



Re-enact rule 1995/0 (Power=2) "Land Types" with the text:

   Each Unit of Land SHALL have a single Land Type. Changes to Land
   Type are secured.

   The phrase "Units of X", where X is a Land Type defined by the
   Rules, is considered a synonym for "Units of Land that have Land
   Type (or Subtype) X"

   When existent Land has not had its Type changed as explicitly
   permitted by the Rules, or has a Type that is not currently
   defined by the Rules, it is considered to have the Land Type of
   Aether. Rules to the contrary nonwithstanding, Units of Aether
   CANNOT be transferred from Agora, or owned by any entity other
   than Agora. If Private or Public Land becomes Aether, the
   Cartographor SHALL transfer it to Agora in a timely fashion.

   When an act specifies an alternating Land Type, the Land Type
   chosen will be based upon the Land Type used as the previous
   alternating Land Type, so that consecutive alternating Land Types
   alternate between Black and White. In a timely fashion after a
   Player notifies the Cartographor of an act that specifies an
   alternating Land Type, the Cartographor MUST announce which Land
   Type was used for that act.

Re-enact rule 1996/3 (Power=1), renaming it to "The Cartographor" with
the text:

   The Cartographor is an office; its holder is recordkeepor for the
   Land of Arcadia.

   The Cartographor's Weekly Report shall include:

   1. the ownership and land type of all existing land;
   2. all changes in the ownership and land type of existing land
 

Re: DIS: The land reforms I kept on talking up

[Reuben Staley]

Oh gosh, so many things I didn't even consider.

Some of your questions involve my rationale in creating the finished 
version you see. So I'll have to explain my mindset. Here we go.


On 11/18/2017 9:05 PM, Aris Merchant wrote:

On Fri, Nov 17, 2017 at 3:28 PM, Reuben Staley  wrote:


Okay, so here's my plan:


I love this. A few suggestions.


1. Ditch shinies.

2. Three different production zmetah exist: Farm, Mine, Orchard.


When you say that they produce things, do you mean they do it
automatically or that you have to claim it each week? I tend to prefer
the later, because it prevents inactive players from accruing wealth.


Well, they produce a set amount each week, but they can only hold so 
many. So you have to walk to the zmet to collect the assets which have 
been accumulating.



3. Farms produce Corn and Cotton.


I'd prefer Grain instead of Corn. It matches better with things like
Fruit and Lumber. It also allows us to add flour and bread later
(something so expensive and complex to produce that we could even
allow limited teleportation with it), although I admit that it's a bit
weird to be directly eating Grain in the meantime (maybe we're feeding
it to our horses?).


That kinda undermines the whole "trying to make all the zmetah equal" 
thing... although later in your message, you debunk that... I dunno. I 
actually did think about making it more broad of a term, but I didn't go 
with it mainly because I just liked the idea of a corn-based economy. 
Not just agriculture based, but *corn* based. It makes me giggle a 
little bit inside.


Additionally, I wanted two approaches to unrefined food. Besides, corn 
can be ground into corn meal, which could be used to make corn bread.


Perhaps having a bakery zmet that converts grain into a more efficient 
energy source in the long run would indeed be beneficial. Maybe bakeries 
could bake corn meal into corn bread -- but for all that effort, corn 
bread would have to be, like, a superfood.



4. Mines produce Stone and Ore.

5. Orchards produce Fruit and Lumber.

6. Some number of refinery zmetah exist.


Perhaps one for each resource? Looms, Refineries, and Mills?


I didn't want to do this because I thought the map would get a bit 
crowded with a ton of different types of refinery zmetah. So I wanted to 
make there be less types.



7. Cotton can be refined into cloth.

8. Ore can be refined into bars.

9. Lumber can be refined into paper.

10. Corn and Fruit can be consumed to allow you to move.

11. Stone and Lumber are used to build zmetah.

12. Proposals and reports and such are written on Paper and Cloth.


'kay, I'm gonna take this comment piece by piece.


Proposals sure, but reports should be free to write.


Probably, yeah. I wanted to include them in the metaphor because it fit 
but I agree that it seems out of place.



What else are you
putting under "and such"?


Nothing, I just wanted to make myself sound smarter.


Also, how does one write on Cloth?


Okay, it would probably be more accurate if I wrote "textile" instead of 
cloth. It's a broader term, and you can indeed make paper out of cotton. 
Maybe cotton paper and cloth should be separate, and cloth can have more 
uses later on.



An
alternate version might be Papyrus -> Scrolls if you want them to be
interchangeable, or Something -> Ink if you wanted to require both.


No, no, no. A thousand times no. Making it so that you need ink to write 
things makes proposals waaay too expensive.



13. Bars are used as the new official currency of Agora.


First, lemme 'splain my rationale behind this:

I originally wanted there to be no standard currency, so auctions could 
be held in whatever currency the Auctioneer needs most, or thinks is 
more appropriate. Instead of one central currency, there would be nine 
different currencies that you could choose from.


HOWEVER...

In order to keep all three of the production zmetah relatively equal, 
ores had to have some purpose. Therefore, I chose refined ores -- aka 
bars --  to be the new currency. Then bars have a lot more value.


ADDITIONALLY...

I couldn't think of much use for bars except as a building material. 
Lumber and Stone are fine as building materials because you don't have 
to refine them. But you do have to refine bars, so these bar-refineries 
would be used only to build things or upkeep things.



To hold auctions in and such?


Yes, but holding auctions in other currencies is still possible.


It might be a good idea to have it be a
base currency, rather than a refined one, to ensure supply. Also,
because it's likely to prove most useful, it would be fair to give it
its own zmet.


So, maybe re-purpose mines to only produce ores and have stone come from 
somewhere else?



The alternative, which would be more complex and more
interesting, but also more annoying, would be to have each type of
auction run on a different resource.


The beauty of this system is you could do either -- keep 

Re: DIS: The land reforms I kept on talking up

[Aris Merchant]

On Fri, Nov 17, 2017 at 3:28 PM, Reuben Staley  wrote:
>
> Okay, so here's my plan:

I love this. A few suggestions.

> 1. Ditch shinies.
>
> 2. Three different production zmetah exist: Farm, Mine, Orchard.

When you say that they produce things, do you mean they do it
automatically or that you have to claim it each week? I tend to prefer
the later, because it prevents inactive players from accruing wealth.

> 3. Farms produce Corn and Cotton.

I'd prefer Grain instead of Corn. It matches better with things like
Fruit and Lumber. It also allows us to add flour and bread later
(something so expensive and complex to produce that we could even
allow limited teleportation with it), although I admit that it's a bit
weird to be directly eating Grain in the meantime (maybe we're feeding
it to our horses?).

> 4. Mines produce Stone and Ore.
>
> 5. Orchards produce Fruit and Lumber.
>
> 6. Some number of refinery zmetah exist.

Perhaps one for each resource? Looms, Refineries, and Mills?

> 7. Cotton can be refined into cloth.
>
> 8. Ore can be refined into bars.
>
> 9. Lumber can be refined into paper.
>
> 10. Corn and Fruit can be consumed to allow you to move.
>
> 11. Stone and Lumber are used to build zmetah.
>
> 12. Proposals and reports and such are written on Paper and Cloth.

Proposals sure, but reports should be free to write. What else are you
putting under "and such"? Also, how does one write on Cloth? An
alternate version might be Papyrus -> Scrolls if you want them to be
interchangeable, or Something -> Ink if you wanted to require both.

> 13. Bars are used as the new official currency of Agora.

To hold auctions in and such? It might be a good idea to have it be a
base currency, rather than a refined one, to ensure supply. Also,
because it's likely to prove most useful, it would be fair to give it
its own zmet. The alternative, which would be more complex and more
interesting, but also more annoying, would be to have each type of
auction run on a different resource. If we aren't minting coins from
metal, I'd suggest representing currency as energy (something we've
done in the past). The nice thing about energy is that it can be
produced many different ways. Potentially we could allow people to
burn wood and coal, to build solar panels and dams, and even to
exploit nuclear power. To start with though, I'd suggest something
like solar panels that can be built anywhere and doesn't require other
resources.

> 14. Agora can create any of the above assets and give it to entities -- for
> reports and such.

No more running out of money, although it does force us to balance the
economy. Frankly, I would prefer runaway inflation to being broke,
however.

> This way, each production zmet creates one refinable resource and one
> unrefinable resource, thereby balancing them.

Don't expect that to last. People are likely to add complexity as time
goes on. I can already see grain -> flour -> bread, fruit ->
juice/wine, stone -> blocks, lumber -> beams, cloth -> clothes, and
bars -> just about anything. And that's assuming no one adds more
production zmetah, something that will happen sooner our later. Most
of these possibilities won't develop, but any system gradually gets
more complex until it breaks or someone gets bored and decides to do a
reform and shake things up.

-Aris

Re: DIS: Re: OFF: [Surveyor] Weekly Report

[Ørjan Johansen]

NttPF.

Greetings,
Ørjan.

On Thu, 16 Nov 2017, VJ Rada wrote:


Thu, 09 Nov 2017 08:50:46  V.J Rada bought the Estate of Erehwon for 1,011

shinies

​CoE: this is disputed.​


On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 4:29 PM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:


Recent events (all times UTC)

Tue, 09 May 2017 01:02:55  The Estate of Antegria created by Proposal 7846
Tue, 09 May 2017 01:02:55  The Estate of Borduria created by Proposal 7846
Tue, 09 May 2017 01:02:55  The Estate of Cagliostro created by Proposal
7846
Tue, 09 May 2017 01:02:55  The Estate of Dawsbergen created by Proposal
7846
Tue, 09 May 2017 01:02:55  The Estate of Erehwon created by Proposal 7846
Sat, 10 Jun 2017 08:27:45  天火狐 went on a tour of Antegria
Sat, 10 Jun 2017 22:40:37  天火狐 bought the Estate of Antegria for 50 Shinies
Thu, 17 Aug 2017 05:36:51  o bought the Estate of Borduria for 1 Shiny
Thu, 17 Aug 2017 12:38:08  ais523 went on a tour of Borduria
Sat, 19 Aug 2017 03:43:12  o sold Borduria to ais523
Sat, 09 Sep 2017 01:20:34  CuddleBeam went on a tour of Cagliostro
Mon, 11 Sep 2017 17:35:30  ais523 deregistered
Tue, 12 Sep 2017 05:27:39  CuddleBeam bought Cagliostro for 68 shinies
Fri, 13 Oct 2017 18:51:12  G. bought The Estate of Dawsbergen for 41 sh.
Thu, 02 Nov 2017 13:51:00  ATMunn went on a tour of Erehwon
Mon, 06 Nov 2017 21:54:08  The Estate of Florin created by Proposal 7954
Mon, 06 Nov 2017 21:54:08  The Estate of Guilder created by Proposal 7954
Thu, 09 Nov 2017 08:50:46  V.J Rada bought the Estate of Erehwon for 1,011
shinies


EstateOwner
---
Antegria  天火狐
Borduria  Agora
Cagliostro   CuddleBeam
Dawsbergen   G.
ErehwonV.J Rada
FlorinAgora
Guilder   Agora


= The Estate of Antegria =
Owner: 天火狐
Market Value: 50 Shinies

Anomic Antegria is a picturesque pastoral region with many
historic sites in its borders. Although known primarily for its
many open-air sulphur lakes and the occasional volcanic eruption,
Antegria is a land of endless natural beauty with over three
national parks dedicated to some of the most unique landscapes of
the world, such as Antegria's famed desert of glass, pristine lava
flats, and wide expansive heaths. A trip through fetid Antegria is
not complete without spotting two of the most iconic animals
inhabiting the region: the Moorlands Dire Alpaca and the Antegrian
Fire Keese, both of which should be easy to find on any day trip
from the capital, St. Marmero.

For the culturally-inclined visitor, the Presidential Palace
Square in downtown St. Marmero is an iconic location, and, with
the completion of the new statue commemorating the crowning of the
Princess of Agora, now an even more paramount destination to be
visiting. Down the street from the palace is the Antegrian War
Memorial, showing the struggles and triumphs of our countrymen in
the many wars this region had been embroiled in. From visiting the
noteworthy battlefields of yore to a gastronomical adventure
across the countryside, the Ministry of Tourism offers a variety
of tours, with complementary professional tour guides and security
for the trip. If a regimented schedule is not your thing, heading
out and forging your own path in Antegria is always an adventure:
you may even find some hidden gems in the countryside!

= The Estate of Borduria =
Owner: Agora
Market Value: 5 Shinies

Borduria is a flat plain among the otherwise mountainous area at
the east edge of Agora, thus making it a common battleground when
hostilities arise between Agora and other nomics. It is notable
for a  major train line that was once in regular use to deliver
military supplies to Agora's defensive forces; so regular, in
fact, that it became the standard means of telling time for
Bordurian citizens. In the present, more peaceful, political
climate, a service of its previous frequency is no longer needed
for logistical reasons, but is nonetheless preserved in order to
allow Bordurians to set their watches.

Exports from the Borduria region include dairy products
(especially cheese), grapes, and wheat (typically in refined
form).

= The Estate of Cagliostro =
Owner: CuddleBeam
Market Value: 68 Shinies

Calgiostro is a giant internet café tended by busty anime catgirls
in maid costumes. Its internet never lags, you always get queued
with amazing teammates and when you play online cardgames you
always topdeck the card you need. Legend says this place has been
blessed by RNGesus himself.

-I pay Cuddlebeam an amount of shinies equal to all of the current
shinies that I have.

-I pledge to transfer to Cuddlebeam any amount of shinies that I
gain

-I pledge to always do what Cuddlebeam commands me to, if such a
command has been ordered via agora-discussion.

= The Estate of 

Re: DIS: The land reforms I kept on talking up

[Aris Merchant]

On Mon, Nov 13, 2017 at 9:17 PM, Reuben Staley  wrote:
> I'm done with a very, very rough draft of this proposal. Tell me how you all
> think it looks.
>
> =
>
> Title: "Putting Agora on a Map"
> AI: 2
> Author: Trigon
> Co-Authors:
>
> The square brackets are not proposal text and all that jazz.
>
> [ PART I: Removing and Changing Stuff ]
>
> Repeal rules 2488, 2489, 2490, and 2491.
>
> [ I honestly tried to keep the estates, but these changes are so radical
>   that it wouldn't be compatible. ]

If you wanted to pay the estate owner something, I'd suggest giving
each estate owner one of your new pieces of land. It makes
metaphorical sense (the estates just have positions now) and is quite
fair. You might also start them off on their new land, as a bonus.

>
> Amend rule 2500 by replacing "2" with "6".
>
> Replace all instances of "1 Action Point" with "3 Action Points" in the
> order they appear.
>
> [ Unlike most reforms, I want to keep AP around, mostly because the 2003
>   version had "Action Units" which were a similar concept. I reworked it
>   though, so here you go. ]
>
> [PART II: Making Land]
>
> Re-enact rule 1993/1 (Power=2) "The Land of Arcadia" with the text:
>
>   Arcadia is a land entirely defined by the Arcadian Map (the Map).
>   The Map is a record kept by the Office of the Cartographor.
>
>   The Map divides Arcadia into a finite, discrete number of Units of
>   Land, or simply Land. Each Unit of Land is an indestructible asset
>   specified by a pair of integers known as its Latitude and
>   Longitude.
>
>   Every unique pair of integers within the limits defined in the
>   Rules for Latitude and Longitude signifies an existent Unit of
>   Land. No other Units of Land exist. Units of Land SHALL only be
>   created or destroyed by changing the limits of Latitude and
>   Longitude defined in the Rules.
>
>   All values for Latitude and Longitude MUST lie between -9 and +9,
>   inclusive.
>
>   The Total Land Area of Arcadia is the number of existent Units of
>   Land defined by permissible Latitude and Longitude pairs.
>
> Re-enact rule 1994/0 (Power=2) "Ownership of Land" with the text:
>
>   Any existent Land for which ownership has not been explicitly
>   changed belongs to Agora.
>
>   Land belonging to Agora is called Public Land. Land belonging to
>   a contract is called Communal Land. Land belonging to any other
>   entity is called Private Land. Together, Communal Land and Private
>   Land are called Proprietary Land.
>
>   Changes in Land ownership are secured, unless:
>
>   1. The Land Unit is Public, and the transfer is specifically
>  permitted by the rules;
>
>   2. The Land Unit is Communal, and the transfer is specifically
>  permitted by the Contract that owns it;
>
>   3. The Land Unit is Private, and the entity that owns it announces
>  the transfer.

This is probably unneeded. The assets rule specifies most of this
stuff, and adding it here isn't helpful. Transfers from Agora are
always permitted if there's language like "X CAN transfer Y from Agora
to Z", so you don't need to define any of it. Just define Public and
Proprietary land.

> Re-enact rule 1995/0 (Power=2) "Land Types" with the text:
>
>   Each Unit of Land SHALL have a single Land Type. Changes to Land
>   Type are secured.
>
>   The phrase "Units of X", where X is a Land Type defined by the
>   Rules, is considered a synonym for "Units of Land that have Land
>   Type (or Subtype) X"
>
>   When existent Land has not had its Type changed as explicitly
>   permitted by the Rules, or has a Type that is not currently
>   defined by the Rules, it is considered to have the Land Type of
>   Aether. Rules to the contrary nonwithstanding, Units of Aether
>   CANNOT be transferred from Agora, or owned by any entity other
>   than Agora. If Private or Public Land becomes Aether, the
>   Cartographor SHALL transfer it to Agora in a timely fashion.
>
>   When an act specifies an alternating Land Type, the Land Type
>   chosen will be based upon the Land Type used as the previous
>   alternating Land Type, so that consecutive alternating Land Types
>   alternate between Black and White. In a timely fashion after a
>   Player notifies the Cartographor of an act that specifies an
>   alternating Land Type, the Cartographor MUST announce which Land
>   Type was used for that act.
>
> Re-enact rule 1996/3 (Power=1), renaming it to "The Cartographor" with
> the text:
>
>   The Cartographor is an office; its holder is recordkeepor for the
>   Land of Arcadia.
>
>   The Cartographor's Weekly Report shall include:
>
>   1. the ownership and land type of all existing land;
>   2. all changes in the ownership and land type of existing land
>  since the most recent 

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Reportor] Agora Sky News vol 7

[Ørjan Johansen]

On Sun, 12 Nov 2017, ATMunn wrote:

I agree. I think e said e was going to be pretty busy for a month or two, but 
still. Also, the wrapping is messed up.


The wrapping of eir newspapers was always messed up on the plain text 
version, and now that the HTML version (which looked fine in my Alpine 
terminal email) is stripped, everyone gets to see that. :P


This also applies to some other people's contributions, especially 
regarding quoting.


Greetings,
Ørjan.

Re: DIS: The land reforms I kept on talking up

[Kerim Aydin]

  quick comments:

-You get rid of shinies then have land auctions in shinies (only reason
I wanted to keep shinies around was for these auctions, so not obvious
to me what to replace them with if you want auctions - which I do!)

- seems like you're keeping AP?  Might make more sense to ditch those,

- the production method of "every week... X units are produced" doesn't
say exactly when and how production is triggered.

On Sat, 18 Nov 2017, Reuben Staley wrote:

> Oh, oops. Looks like I didn't write that it was a proposal anywhere. The
> proposal starting at the first set of square brackets is PAoAM v2 by Trigon
> with coauthors ATMunn, VJ Rada, o, G., and Aris I think.
> 
> On 11/18/2017 11:57 PM, Reuben Staley wrote:
> > Okay, here we go with round 2. This is looking like Go and Settlers of Catan
> > were mixed into one game. What could possibly go wrong?
> > 
> > I'm pretty sure I got all of the mechanics I wanted in there, but it's
> > possible that in my hurry to get another draft out I skipped something.
> > Please notify me of anything that seems out of place.
> > 
> > Also, sorry Aris, but hardly any of the stuff you brought up was fixed
> > because they haven't been discussed yet.
> > 
> > [ PART I: Removing and Changing Stuff ]
> > 
> > Repeal rules 2488, 2489, 2490, and 2491.
> > 
> > [ I honestly tried to keep the estates, but these changes are so radical
> >    that it wouldn't be compatible. ]
> > 
> > Repeal rule 2500.
> > 
> > Amend rule 2445 by replacing the second paragraph and subsequent list
> > with:
> > 
> >    Any player CAN flip a specified proposal's imminence to "pending" by
> >    announcement by spending 1 paper.
> > 
> > Amend rule 991 by removing the first list item of the list directly
> > following the first paragraph.
> > 
> > [ Everyone wants to get rid of these so okay, let's do it. ]
> > 
> > Repeal rules 2483, 2487, and 2497.
> > 
> > [ No more shinies, everybody! ]
> > 
> > Amend rule 2516 by replacing it in full with:
> > 
> >    At the beginning of the Agoran week, the Treasuror CAN and SHALL
> >    cause Agora to give:
> > 
> >    1. every player with an amount of papers less than 2 an amount of
> >   papers so that eir paper balance is equal to 2.
> > 
> >    2. every player with an amount of apples less than 2 an amount of
> >   apples so that eir apple balance is equal to 2.
> > 
> > [ This makes it so that impoverished players can move a little each week
> >    and make some proposals. ]
> > 
> > Amend rule 2599 by replacing the second paragraph with:
> > 
> >    When a player receives a Welcome Package, Agora transfers the
> >    following assets to em:
> > 
> >    1. 10 bars
> >    2. 5 lumber
> >    3. 5 stones
> >    4. 10 apples
> >    5. 5 papers
> > 
> > [PART II: Making Land]
> > 
> > Re-enact rule 1993/1 (Power=2) "The Land of Arcadia" with the text:
> > 
> >    Arcadia is a land entirely defined by the Arcadian Map (the Map).
> >    The Map is the term for the set of all Land Units.
> > 
> >    The Map divides Arcadia into a finite, discrete number of Units of
> >    Land, or simply Land. Each Unit of Land is an indestructible asset
> >    specified by a pair of integers known as its Latitude and
> >    Longitude.
> > 
> >    Every unique pair of integers within the limits defined in the
> >    Rules for Latitude and Longitude signifies an existent Unit of
> >    Land. No other Units of Land exist. Units of Land CAN only be
> >    created or destroyed by changing the limits of Latitude and
> >    Longitude defined in the Rules.
> > 
> >    All values for Latitude and Longitude MUST lie between -9 and +9,
> >    inclusive.
> > 
> >    The Total Land Area of Arcadia is the number of existent Units of
> >    Land defined by permissible Latitude and Longitude pairs.
> > 
> > Re-enact rule 1994/0 (Power=2) "Ownership of Land" with the text:
> > 
> >    Any existent Land for which ownership has not been explicitly
> >    changed belongs to Agora.
> > 
> >    Land belonging to Agora is called Public Land. Land belonging to
> >    a contract is called Communal Land. Land belonging to any other
> >    entity is called Private Land. Together, Communal Land and Private
> >    Land are called Proprietary Land.
> > 
> >    Land CAN be tranferred in the following ways:
> > 
> >    1. The Land Unit is Public, and the transfer is specifically
> >   permitted by the rules;
> > 
> >    2. The Land Unit is Communal, and the transfer is specifically
> >   permitted by the Contract that owns it;
> > 
> >    3. The Land Unit is Private, and the entity that owns it announces
> >   the transfer.
> > 
> >    If none of these criteria are met, changes in Land Ownership are
> >    secured.
> > 
> > Re-enact rule 1995/0 (Power=2) "Land Types" with the text:
> > 
> >    Each 

Re: DIS: The land reforms I kept on talking up

[Aris Merchant]

It's an a-d draft anyway, so it doesn't matter.

-Aris

On Sat, Nov 18, 2017 at 10:59 PM, Reuben Staley  wrote:
> Oh, oops. Looks like I didn't write that it was a proposal anywhere. The
> proposal starting at the first set of square brackets is PAoAM v2 by Trigon
> with coauthors ATMunn, VJ Rada, o, G., and Aris I think.
>
>
> On 11/18/2017 11:57 PM, Reuben Staley wrote:
>>
>> Okay, here we go with round 2. This is looking like Go and Settlers of
>> Catan were mixed into one game. What could possibly go wrong?
>>
>> I'm pretty sure I got all of the mechanics I wanted in there, but it's
>> possible that in my hurry to get another draft out I skipped something.
>> Please notify me of anything that seems out of place.
>>
>> Also, sorry Aris, but hardly any of the stuff you brought up was fixed
>> because they haven't been discussed yet.
>>
>> [ PART I: Removing and Changing Stuff ]
>>
>> Repeal rules 2488, 2489, 2490, and 2491.
>>
>> [ I honestly tried to keep the estates, but these changes are so radical
>>that it wouldn't be compatible. ]
>>
>> Repeal rule 2500.
>>
>> Amend rule 2445 by replacing the second paragraph and subsequent list
>> with:
>>
>>Any player CAN flip a specified proposal's imminence to "pending"
>> by
>>announcement by spending 1 paper.
>>
>> Amend rule 991 by removing the first list item of the list directly
>> following the first paragraph.
>>
>> [ Everyone wants to get rid of these so okay, let's do it. ]
>>
>> Repeal rules 2483, 2487, and 2497.
>>
>> [ No more shinies, everybody! ]
>>
>> Amend rule 2516 by replacing it in full with:
>>
>>At the beginning of the Agoran week, the Treasuror CAN and SHALL
>>cause Agora to give:
>>
>>1. every player with an amount of papers less than 2 an amount of
>>   papers so that eir paper balance is equal to 2.
>>
>>2. every player with an amount of apples less than 2 an amount of
>>   apples so that eir apple balance is equal to 2.
>>
>> [ This makes it so that impoverished players can move a little each week
>>and make some proposals. ]
>>
>> Amend rule 2599 by replacing the second paragraph with:
>>
>>When a player receives a Welcome Package, Agora transfers the
>>following assets to em:
>>
>>1. 10 bars
>>2. 5 lumber
>>3. 5 stones
>>4. 10 apples
>>5. 5 papers
>>
>> [PART II: Making Land]
>>
>> Re-enact rule 1993/1 (Power=2) "The Land of Arcadia" with the text:
>>
>>Arcadia is a land entirely defined by the Arcadian Map (the Map).
>>The Map is the term for the set of all Land Units.
>>
>>The Map divides Arcadia into a finite, discrete number of Units of
>>Land, or simply Land. Each Unit of Land is an indestructible asset
>>specified by a pair of integers known as its Latitude and
>>Longitude.
>>
>>Every unique pair of integers within the limits defined in the
>>Rules for Latitude and Longitude signifies an existent Unit of
>>Land. No other Units of Land exist. Units of Land CAN only be
>>created or destroyed by changing the limits of Latitude and
>>Longitude defined in the Rules.
>>
>>All values for Latitude and Longitude MUST lie between -9 and +9,
>>inclusive.
>>
>>The Total Land Area of Arcadia is the number of existent Units of
>>Land defined by permissible Latitude and Longitude pairs.
>>
>> Re-enact rule 1994/0 (Power=2) "Ownership of Land" with the text:
>>
>>Any existent Land for which ownership has not been explicitly
>>changed belongs to Agora.
>>
>>Land belonging to Agora is called Public Land. Land belonging to
>>a contract is called Communal Land. Land belonging to any other
>>entity is called Private Land. Together, Communal Land and Private
>>Land are called Proprietary Land.
>>
>>Land CAN be tranferred in the following ways:
>>
>>1. The Land Unit is Public, and the transfer is specifically
>>   permitted by the rules;
>>
>>2. The Land Unit is Communal, and the transfer is specifically
>>   permitted by the Contract that owns it;
>>
>>3. The Land Unit is Private, and the entity that owns it announces
>>   the transfer.
>>
>>If none of these criteria are met, changes in Land Ownership are
>>secured.
>>
>> Re-enact rule 1995/0 (Power=2) "Land Types" with the text:
>>
>>Each Unit of Land has a single Land Type. Changes to Land Type are
>>secured. In addition to Aether, the Land types Black and White are
>>defined.
>>
>>The phrase "Units of X", where X is a Land Type defined by the
>>Rules, is considered a synonym for "Units of Land that have Land
>>Type (or Subtype) X"
>>
>>When existent Land has not had its Type changed as explicitly
>>permitted by the Rules, or has a Type that is not 

Re: DIS: Politician Naming

[Ørjan Johansen]

On Sat, 18 Nov 2017, Madeline wrote:

Since the party proposal is set to be passing, I'd like to get some good pun 
names brought in for our array of Politicians. I can offer rewards too 
(likely a shiny or two per name), and you'll be sparing us all from a 
terrible fate of auspol jokes!


Mad "Max" Robespierre
Joseph "Stealin'" McCarthy
Mickey Joker
Xi Kingpin
Malcolm Turncoat

Greetings,
Ørjan.

DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Arbitor] CFJ 3585 assigned to V.J. Rada

[Ørjan Johansen]

On Mon, 30 Oct 2017, VJ Rada wrote:


The text of the rules (2168) say that PSS was obligated to "issue a
humiliating public reminder to the slackers who have not yet cast any
votes on it despite being eligible". PSS literally used the words
"humiliating public reminder", addressing all those who have not
voted. Uninspired, but nothing in the rules demands any more than
that, and it would be atextual to read in a creativity or specific
address requirement. This CFJ is TRUE.


I got horribly backlogged, so this is really late (especially with the 
rule having changed in the meantime, and I see ais523 got into a similar 
discussion), but:


This judgment didn't engage with my actual reason for calling the CFJ. 
Of course I didn't state it very clearly since I have a bad tendency of 
thinking some things are obvious, but:


To say that you can issue a humiliating public reminder simply by stating 
you do is the ISIDTID (I Say I Do Therefore I Do) fallacy.  The Rule does 
_not_ allow the action to be taking simply by announcement, and so my 
claim is that to actually perform it you have to:


* issue
* publicly
* a reminder
* which is humiliating.

In yet other words, the rule does _not_ define an Agoran term, but simply 
refers to the ordinary language meaning of those words (except public, 
which has a rule definition.)


Greetings,
Ørjan.


On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 11:58 AM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:



If I have not already numbered and assigned the below CFJ, I do as indicated 
below:


-- Forwarded message --
Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2017 13:58:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: Kerim Aydin 
To: Agora Official 
Subject: [Arbitor] CFJ 3585 assigned to V.J. Rada




On Tue, 24 Oct 2017, Ørjan Johansen wrote:

On Mon, 23 Oct 2017, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote:

I issue a humiliating public reminder to those who have not yet voted on
Proposal 7930, the voting period has been extended.


Hm why not... I CFJ

PSS issued a humiliating public reminder in the above quoted text.


This is CFJ 3585.  I assign it to V.J. Rada.



Argument: Doesn't look very humiliating to me.







--

From V.J. Rada

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Contract (Designating reportor)

[Ørjan Johansen]

On Sun, 12 Nov 2017, Aris Merchant wrote:


Amend Rule 2525, Interpreting Contracts, by:

 Removing item 6 of the numbered list and renumbering appropriately; and
 Changing the phrase "failing protected action" to read "failing to preform
 a protected action".


I think you mean "perform".

Greetings,
Ørjan.

Re: DIS: Proto-proto proposal

[Ørjan Johansen]

On Fri, 3 Nov 2017, VJ Rada wrote:


I think the last time this was asked about, G. said they started being
used somewhere between 1993/4. So they have a long pedigree haha :).


Well the last time I recall, I pointed out that Spivak pronouns were used 
in Agora's original ruleset, and Originator Chuck made a response too.


Greetings,
Ørjan.

Re: DIS: The land reforms I kept on talking up

[Aris Merchant]

On Sat, Nov 18, 2017 at 9:59 PM, Reuben Staley  wrote:
>
> So I should just have the first two paragraphs plus the little "changes are
> secured" thing?

Yep. In fact, you really shouldn't need even the changes are secured.
They're restricted, and that's probably good enough.\
> After thinking it through, though, I think I'll call jafitah "patches" and
> zmetah "facilities"
>
> You're using them inconsistently
>>
>> anyway.
>
>
> No I'm actually not. Whenever I typed jafit, I meant jafit. Whenever I typed
> zmet, I meant zmet.

What I meant was that you still had "plot" in the proposal anyway, and
were interchanging those.

>>>Jafitah (pronounced /jæfitɑ/, singular "jafit") are liquid assets
>>>tracked by the Cartographor.
>>>
>>>In order to create a plot, the player who wishes to create it
>>>SHALL specify one or more Land Units that are all connected by a
>>>single Type that the plot is to be composed of. These land units
>>>are considered the jafit's constituents.
>>>
>>>A player CAN create or destroy a plot by announcement by spending
>>>3 AP or 5 sh.
>>>
>>>If one or more units of land that make up a jafit ever have their
>>>ownership or Land Type changed, then:
>>>
>>>1. If the change would cause the constituent Land Units to cease
>>>   to be connected, then the jafit is destroyed;
>>>
>>>2. otherwise, the plot is resized to exclude the Land Unit in
>>>   question.
>>
>>
>> I really don't like the semi-modular approach. Make it so that each
>> one piece of land is separate, it will be simpler to deal with. I like
>> complexity, but this is needless.
>
>
> You really think so? The reason I did it this way is because I wanted people
> to want to make larger jafitah so that the size could determine how much of
> a profit they could turn.

The alternative, which makes more sense to me, is that you have to
build a farm on each piece of land individually. That way, instead of
doing all the record keeping on patches, we do recordkeping on each
piece of land as a single unit. It also means that you can transfer
one piece of land, with its farm, or whatever.

>> My suggestion would be to say that
>> you can only build on land you're standing on, encouraging building
>> things closer together so you can access them. We might eventually
>> allow players to "level up" their building after some time (like I
>> think G.'s proposal had),
>
>
> Please no, that seems more complex.

Why? A rank-1 farm produces 1x fruits, a rank-2 farm produces 2x
fruits, and so forth.

>> or provide synergy bonuses, or both, but
>> those are all simpler than tracking this. Also, wouldn't you want to
>> require the player to own all the land?
>
> Crap, did I not specify that the player had to own all the land? Because I
> intended to.
>
>>> [ This needs to be worded better. Suggest fixes please. Thanks in
>>>advance. ]
>>>
>>> Create a new rule (Power=2) "Zmetah" with the text:
>>>
>>> [ Okay, I'm just gonna call everything by Sajem Tan names because why
>>>not. This one means "building" btw. ]
>>>
>>>Zmetah (pronounced /zmetɑ/, singular "zmet") are liquid assets
>>>tracked by the Cartographor. In order for a zmet to exist, it MUST
>>>be built on a jafit. Only one zmet is allowed per jafit.
>>>
>>>A player CAN create a zmet by announcement by paying specifying
>>>which jafit e wants to build it on, specifying which type of zmet
>>>e intends to build, and paying the corresponding build cost.
>>>
>>>If a player owns a zmet, e CAN, by announcement, use any powers
>>>the zmet affords to em.
>>>
>>>If a player owns any zmetah with upkeep costs, e SHALL pay them
>>>before the first day of the next Agoran month. Failing to do this
>>>destroys the zmet. In the second to last week of the Agoran Month,
>>>the Cartographor SHALL issue a humiliating public reminder to all
>>>those who have not paid upkeep fees on any of eir zmetah.
>>
>>
>> You probably just want to destroy it, not punish the person.
>
>
> Uh, they are destroyed if you don't pay the upkeep cost. And there's no
> punishment, unless you call the humiliating public reminders, which do not
> punish the player at all, a punishment.

" e SHALL pay" specifies that e can be punished if e doesn't. I'd just
drop it, but the problem persists in your latest draft.

>> I think
>> others have mentioned this, but SHALL/CAN problems pop up throughout
>> the proposal.
>
>
> Many times before (insert old Agoran language complaint here). They should
> all be fixed before the next version.
>
>>> Create a new rule (Power=2) "Zmet Types" with the text:
>>>
>>>The following Zmet types are defined, along with all relevant
>>>statistics:
>>>
>>>1. Estate
>>>   -  Build Cost: 10sh.
>>>   -  Upkeep Cost: 10sh.
>>> 

Re: DIS: GitHub request

[ATMunn]

I had tried to copy it, but there's no way to copy this 
https://github.com/AgoraNomic/ADoP-old/tree/master/_includes as it doesn't 
appear to be a file. I'm not very familiar with Git, so I have no idea what 
that is or how it got there.

On 11/14/2017 2:31 PM, Aris Merchant wrote:

It's a submodule, which makes it weird. Copying the other one isn't a bad idea.

-Aris

On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 10:44 AM, ATMunn  wrote:

Hm, I don't know how to include the header. I've tried to copy from the old
repo, but I'm having trouble with that. I'm considering just getting rid of
my new one and using the old one instead.


On 11/14/2017 1:11 PM, ATMunn wrote:


Yep, thanks.

On 11/14/2017 1:02 PM, Aris Merchant wrote:


I'm presuming you're ATMunngit? If so, done.

-Aris

On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 9:35 AM, ATMunn  wrote:


I'd like to join the Agora GitHub group, so I can publish my ADoP
reports on
there.

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] Ribbon Auctions

[Corona]

I don't think Black would necessarily be a "scam ribbon". One could
obtain the Black Ribbon by a completely honest proposal - they would
just have to incentivize other players to vote for it. True, the
"incentive" may take the form of money, but also endorsements on other
votes etc. I'm for keeping it.

On 11/17/17, Alex Smith  wrote:
> On Fri, 2017-11-17 at 20:40 -0500, ATMunn wrote:
>> Here's an idea I was originally going to include in the Auctions
>> proposal, but it might be more controversial so I decided to
>> make it as a separate proposal.
>>
>> I submit the below proposal and pend it with AP:
>
> Arguably this should replace Black; if we have another economic-ish
> ribbon, then Black pretty much becomes a pure scam ribbon, which is
> unfair for people who don't like doing scams.
>
> I'm also uncomfortable with having the Ribbon rule mention Shinies;
> it's intended to work long-term even if the ruleset changes beneath it.
>
> --
> ais523
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS:

[Corona]

@o: I was not being serious about the outrageousness of Agora not
being able to go into debt. I should've remembered that there are no
cues to sarcasm on the Internet.

As for the economy, I trust that at least one of the upcoming
proposals will work, but since you asked: a cycle of inflating shinies
and raising prices, like in real-world economies could be an option
too?

@G.: There seems to be a flaw in your proposal - if CFJ costs 5sh and
the Arbitor can adjust the price by up to 10%/month, e can't adjust
the price at all, unless you introduce fractional shinies...

On 11/17/17, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
>
>
> On Fri, 17 Nov 2017, Owen Jacobson wrote:
>> We’ve had the Shinies system for approximately a year, so we may
>> well be reaching the end of our experiment with it. It’s certainly
>> been interesting, though I won’t necessarily say successful.
>> Shinies-related problems have driven at least two of our longest-
>> standing players to distraction and caused at least one Canteus
>> Cygnus. We’ve been persistently unable to address the core problems,
>> for reasons I won’t claim I have a full handle on. If you have ideas,
>> please have a crack at it.
>
> The issue to date has been pegging the costs of everything to something
> that fluctuates and artificially limiting supply.  This mas mainly
> been driven by the interest in Stamps and other investment vehicles.
> If those are ditched, it can work very simply.  Adopt Alexis's complete
> repeal, but keep shinies with the following very simple system:
>
>
>  At the beginning of the month, each Player gets 35 shinies +
>  10 shinies for each office e held for 16 or more days in the
>  preceding month.  A new player gets 25 shinies.
>
>  CFJ cost is a switch that the Arbitor controls, default 5,
>  the Arbitor can change it by up to 10% monthly w/o 3 objections.
>
>  Pending cost is a switch that the Promotor controls, default 10,
>  the Promotor can change it by up to 10% monthly w/o 3 objections.
>
>  At the end of every quarter, every entity's shiny holdings are
>  reduced by the tax rate (50% suggested).
>
>  Supply isn't fixed, shinies are created/destoyed not transferred
>  from Agora.
>
> There, you got a whole economy/pacing with one rule.  Not really that
> interesting, but a basis.  From there you add:
>
>  - Reform the justice system so that Blots are there instead of
>cards, and create a referee-controlled blot removal cost.
>
>  - Land auctions to create stuff.  Eventually, when we get the
>land sorted out, remove the above direct payment methods and
>replace with wood/sheep/grain or whatever.
>
>
>