Re: [Alpine-l] Springtime photos
Fran, Cohan: as the new NARGS webmaster I can state verbatim that I have never had to use a password is not correct. Members have always had to log in. Fran, I just logged in successfully as you. I'm left to assume your browser used to log you in automatically without you being aware of it, but somehow your browser's cache got cleared of your username and password. I will send you a private email with your log in credentials. Chris Klapwijk NARGS webmaster - Original Message - From: cohan fulford cactuscac...@gmail.com To: Alpine-L, the Electronic Rock Garden Society,postings copyright by authors. alpine-l@science.uu.nl Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2011 12:39 PM Subject: Re: [Alpine-l] Springtime photos ASorry for Off Topic, folks, just wanted all to know I got this and forwarded to Mark and Hugh, hopefully they can get it sorted out quickly :) Cohan It appears that I, a paid up on time member of NARGs since 1992, have now become an unwelcome guest on the forum - not welcome to post messages, reply or comment. There can only be two possible reasons for this - first, I have never had to use a password and, second, perhaps my last payment to NARGs went astray?? Anyway, I feel I deserve an apology and a reinstatement or else I will no longer be a member of NARGs. Am not faulting you, Cohan, but, as I see no way of being able to get in touch with any of the officials, I wonder if you would mind posting this on the forum for me. Thank you. Fran Howey ___ Alpine-l mailing list Alpine-l@science.uu.nl http://mailman.science.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/alpine-l ___ Alpine-l mailing list Alpine-l@science.uu.nl http://mailman.science.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/alpine-l
Re: [Alpine-l] Springtime photos
The value of a laboratory grade instrument and probe is the ability to assume accuracy of the measurement(within the tolerance of the device). One can, with some assurance, use any sort of probe as long as you have some sort of calibration that will give satisfactory accuracy for the application. Temperature is, thankfully, one of the measurements that can be ascertained with reasonable accuracy without great difficulty. One should be careful when making temperature measurements over broad temperature ranges as this factor can have dramatic influence over measurement accuracy. Jim hatchett, eagle Idaho, usa -Original Message- From: alpine-l-boun...@science.uu.nl [mailto:alpine-l-boun...@science.uu.nl] On Behalf Of Fern Hill Sent: Monday, April 18, 2011 8:33 PM To: Alpine-L, the Electronic Rock Garden Society; postings copyright by authors. Subject: Re: [Alpine-l] Springtime photos Just got back from a trip and reviewing emails. Last year I lost my good T shaped temperature probe in a woods near Atlanta. Despite an hour and a half of searching I could not locate the double-stemmed trillium next to a rotting log where the probe was inserted. Since a replacement was charged at $150.00 by the scientific supply house where I had bought it some years earlier, I declined their offering in favor of a good kitchen oven thermometer probe that I got for about $15.00. It works just fine and I could afford it. John Gyer Clarksboro NJ USA - Original Message - From: J.E. Shields jshie...@indy.net To: Alpine-L, the Electronic Rock Garden Society;postings copyright by authors. alpine-l@science.uu.nl Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2011 12:02 PM Subject: Re: [Alpine-l] Springtime photos Cohen, You need a probe thermometer. Look in scientific supply house catalogs. There are several, like Daigger and Fisher Scientific, for instance. Jim Shields At 10:56 PM 4/15/2011 -0600, you wrote: ... I actually have no idea how cold it is/gets under our snow pack, which is much less and of shorter duration than yours, though considerably more and longer lasting than in places like Calgary (where, it should be noted, many things rated for much warmer zones survive in years with little snow cover at all.. of course often little is actually known about the hardiness of various species outside regions with the most gardeners), and varies considerably from one part of my property to another, within a few metres one way or another in some cases! Certainly nothing is growing under the snow here, with the soil solidly frozen before snow cover, generally, and for some time at least after melt as well! More forecast for tomorrow--looks like a late spring here this year! Cohan .. * Jim Shields USDA Zone 5 P.O. Box 92 WWW:http://www.shieldsgardens.com/ Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA Tel. ++1-317-867-3344 ___ Alpine-l mailing list Alpine-l@science.uu.nl http://mailman.science.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/alpine-l ___ Alpine-l mailing list Alpine-l@science.uu.nl http://mailman.science.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/alpine-l ___ Alpine-l mailing list Alpine-l@science.uu.nl http://mailman.science.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/alpine-l
Re: [Alpine-l] Springtime photos
Lis Allison wrote, Tundra happens when the temps stay low enough long enough that the frost never completely leaves the ground, thus causing the next winter to add to the existing frozen soil. If you think of a block of ice, say one cubic foot, surrounded by air or warmish soil, it takes a certain amount of cold to freeze it solid. If you take the same cubic foot of water and put it on top of a solid block of ice, it will be easier (quicker) to freeze. Tundra soil never completely thaws out, only the top thaws, and so the frost line will be very deep indeed. My first rock garden was in Fairbanks, Alaska, over permafrost, but as Lis writes the top layer did thaw annually, and very fast too. One evening I parked my truck next to the rock garden, and the next morning I came out to find it axle-deep in mud. Fortunately a friend and her Yup'ik boyfriend were staying with me at the time, and being from the Yukon delta he knew a whole lot about getting pickups out of mud. Having no alternative at that cabin, I would plant freshly gathered seeds of native alpines in pots in fall. Most would germinate immediately and soon be covered with snow. Almost all of them survived to resume growth in spring. Some of the native plants, however, such as the saxifrages and minuartias, were structured to retain their seeds in the capsules or fruits until the spring thaw, when they were released to germinate in the warming, wet, disturbed soil. I only wish I had realized at that time that I could have been growing high alpines from all over the world, but I thought only native plants could survive there. Still, having Loiseleuria and Diapensia on my little rock garden is a fond memory -- though spring break-up and not seeing anything grow for more than half the year are not so fond. Jane McGary Portland, Oregon, where the sun has finally appeared ___ Alpine-l mailing list Alpine-l@science.uu.nl http://mailman.science.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/alpine-l
Re: [Alpine-l] Springtime photos
Cohen, You need a probe thermometer. Look in scientific supply house catalogs. There are several, like Daigger and Fisher Scientific, for instance. Jim Shields At 10:56 PM 4/15/2011 -0600, you wrote: ... I actually have no idea how cold it is/gets under our snow pack, which is much less and of shorter duration than yours, though considerably more and longer lasting than in places like Calgary (where, it should be noted, many things rated for much warmer zones survive in years with little snow cover at all.. of course often little is actually known about the hardiness of various species outside regions with the most gardeners), and varies considerably from one part of my property to another, within a few metres one way or another in some cases! Certainly nothing is growing under the snow here, with the soil solidly frozen before snow cover, generally, and for some time at least after melt as well! More forecast for tomorrow--looks like a late spring here this year! Cohan .. * Jim Shields USDA Zone 5 P.O. Box 92 WWW:http://www.shieldsgardens.com/ Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA Tel. ++1-317-867-3344 ___ Alpine-l mailing list Alpine-l@science.uu.nl http://mailman.science.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/alpine-l
Re: [Alpine-l] Springtime photos
When I first started gardening up here at 10,000 feet, I asked the local experts if they knew how cold it was under the snow because I wanted to ensure the survival of purchased plants that came with cold-temperature limitations. Most people assumed the temperature was the same under the snow as it was above the snow on any given day. I decided to find out for myself. I set up an electronic thermometer that had a long, insulated wire attached to it and a temperature sensor at the far end. I placed the thermometer in a sheltered, wooden box above the snowline, next to one of my gardens. I dug out the few inches of snow that had already started to build up on the bed in early November and placed the temperature sensor on the surface of the soil. Then I gently replaced the snow. To make sure the thermometer was working properly, I set up an identical unit outside my glass-covered cold frame and ran the temperature sensor inside, pinning it to the snowfree soil surface in the closed cold frame. Every day throughout the entire winter I checked and recorded the maximum and minimum temperatures in both the raised bed under the snow and in the cold frame where snow periodically accumulated on and melted off the glass lid. The results surprised me. Under the snow, the temperature was constant day and night, staying about 2 degrees below freezing (+30F/-1.1C) on average. During a period of sub-zero weather when our low temperature dipped to -15F (-26.1C), the temperature under the snow dropped to +26F (-3.3C). That drop, however, was delayed by 2 days. When the ambient temperature then warmed to around +15F (-9.4C), the temperature under the snow stayed at +26F (-3.3C) for 2 more days -- another delay in responding to the change in ambient temperature. At that time, the snow cover was about 18 (45cm). By comparison, the maximum/minimum temperatures in the cold frame fluctuated wildly, depending on whether there was snow cover on the glass lid or not. If the sun or wind cleared the lid of snow during the day, the maximum temperature would soar above 80F (+26.7C). But then at night the uninsulated lid allowed the interior temperature to plummet to the ambient temperature -- as low as -15F (-26.1C). A layer of snow just 4 (10cm) deep on the raised bed was enough insulation to protect the soil from freezing. It's possible that the temperature 6 below the soil surface at the root zone may have stayed above +32F (0C) throughout the snow-covered period. By the time the snow cover had thinned to the point where it no longer provided significant insulation, it was late spring and the minimum ambient temperatures were between +20F and +34F (-6.7C and +1.1C). Coupled with longer, warmer daylight hours and sunnier skies, the soil was not affected by the below-freezing nighttime temperatures due to its greater density than the surrounding air, which means it took longer for the stored heat from the day to be radiated into the cold night air, and the added protection of the surrounding rocks which acted as a heat sink. The fluctuating temperatures in the cold frame taught me that I would have to use great diligence to keep a heavy layer of snow on the glass lid or risk losing my overwintering plants. This became an impossible chore, especially when we left for several weeks in the dead of winter to warm our bones in the Mojave Desert. So I gave away my cold frame and instead built Garden #11 in its place. There is a very interesting book that deals with the temperatures and climate near the ground. I found an except of it many years ago and it helped me in my quest to understand the climate under my snow cover. In its translation from German, it's called The Climate Near the Ground by Rudolf Geiger. Originally written in 1927, it has been translated and updated several times. It can be read on line or download for free at http://www.archive.org/details/climatenearthegr032657mbp. Jane HendrixMountain View Experimental GardensPeak 7 Area - Breckenridge, Colorado U.S.A.Elevation: 10,000 feetUSDA Zone 4Website: http://www.picturetrail.com/hendrix -- Original Message -- From: cohan fulford cactuscac...@gmail.com To: Alpine-L, the Electronic Rock Garden Society, postings copyright by authors. alpine-l@science.uu.nl Subject: Re: [Alpine-l] Springtime photos Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 22:56:17 -0600 I read somewhere about a climate zone rating system in Russia which made use of many more factors than minimum lows.. would be interesting to have something like that, but of course, more factors that could be wrong :)) I actually have no idea how cold it is/gets under our snow pack, which is much less and of shorter duration than yours, though considerably more and longer lasting #65533;than in places like Calgary (where, it should be noted, many things rated for much warmer zones survive in years with little snow cover at all
Re: [Alpine-l] Springtime photos
Indeed, Cohan, there was even more snow depth than is pictured in my photos taken April 12 so there has been some snow melt already. However, the overall indicator of snow melt progress is the volume of water in the Blue River which flows from the west side of the Continental Divide through Breckenridge, down to Lake Dillon (Denver's water supply) and into the Colorado River Basin. As of today, the water level in the Blue River is still low. The local newspaper has been warning residents that our river could flood this spring due to the increased snowpack. May and June are usually our heaviest snow melt months. Even in early July it could be problematic trying to cross on foot some of our back country streams where there are no bridges. By late July, the river and creeks have calmed down and are at a normal summer flow. I don't put much stock in an area's USDA zone designation. Those zones are based on the coldest ambient temperature recorded for a given area. My Zone 4 says it can get to -30F (-34.5C) but it never has been that low in the 18 years we've lived up here or in the 48 years Klaus has been coming to Breckenridge to work and ski. Also, the zone designation doesn't consider an area's winter snowpack. At our house, the snowpack begins around the first week of November and is still providing an insulating blanket for the soil through mid-May. The temperature at the contact point between soil and snow stays around 32F (0C), fluctuating only 2 to 3 degrees downward when we have a period of sub-zero F. ambient temperatures. Our snow is never icy and is full of air, even when it's compressed. The plants are protected from biting winds and extremely cold temperatures and actually continue to grow under the snow, forming new foliage and even flower buds. They are also protected from March and April days of unseasonably warm sun that might induce them to break dormancy prematurely. Because of my reliable snow cover, I have been able to grow species listed as hardy only to Zone 5 and even 6. Just 20 miles from here, on the east side of the Continental Divide, the winter climate for plants is far more severe. That area, around the little towns of Alma, Fairplay and Hartsel, is designated as Zone 3, even though they are at or below the elevation of our gardens. Being in the rain shadow of the Rocky Mountains, they get very little snow throughout the winter months. To make matters worse, fierce winds sweep across the naturally-open, park-like meadows, removing what little snow may have fallen on the plants. With mostly clear winter days, the sun beats down strongly through the thin atmosphere, warming and heaving the frozen soil, ripping apart the root systems. Every spring, gardeners lose several perennials to that harsh winter climate. One winter I tried to keep the path to the compost pile shoveled but it was a losing battle. We have a half-acre lot and the compost pile is at the back end, about 250 feet or so from our house. I would get the whole thing nicely cleared and then the winds would come up during the night and fill in the path with windslab snow. After repeating that operation several times with the same result and throwing out my back in the process, I finally gave in to Old Man Winter and strapped on snowshoes to get to the back of our lot. We had so much snow this winter that I couldn't even keep my broken snowshoe path open! Again, it was Mr. Wind who filled in my neatly packed track with 12 inches of new snow during the night while I was in dreamland. Jane HendrixMountain View Experimental GardensPeak 7 Area - Breckenridge, Colorado U.S.A.Elevation: 10,000 feetUSDA Zone 4Website: http://www.picturetrail.com/hendrix -- Original Message -- From: cohan fulford cactuscac...@gmail.com To: Alpine-L, the Electronic Rock Garden Society, postings copyright by authors. alpine-l@science.uu.nl Subject: Re: [Alpine-l] Springtime photos Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 11:43:34 -0600 I was wondering how quickly your spring melt was coming along-- we don't get nearly the volume of snow that you do, but your area is z4, whereas I am 3 (on the mapbut remember the z2 temperatures!).. Paths we have shovelled all winter--to woodcutting areas, compost, etc, definitely give the melt inroads--without those, we'd have even less bare ground than we do (most of it re-covered in yesterdays snow!)Cohan On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 9:25 AM, k-jhend...@juno.com k-jhend...@juno.com wrote: It could be that we've quieted down because our gardens are waking up.#65533; Our Rocky Mountain winters at 10,000 feet are very, very long.#65533; To cheer us up, I've begun to germinate about 235 new species from seed under lights in a spare, cool bedroom.#65533; Every day something new pops up and --- IT'S GREEN!#65533; What a beautiful color green is!#65533; Aside from our evergreen conifers, we see green#65533;(without white
Re: [Alpine-l] Springtime photos
Loved it! Especially all the Tulipa humilis cultivars. I have wanted the white one with the blue center for many years, but I always forget to order it. Diana Capen Rye, CO USA foggy morning! -Original Message- From: Jim McKenney jamesamcken...@verizon.net Sent 4/13/2011 6:29:35 PM To: the Electronic Rock Garden Society postings copyright by authors.Alpine-L alpine-l@science.uu.nl Subject: Re: [Alpine-l] Springtime photos Deafening? Here's something to liven things up a bit. Panayoti has prompted me to provide a bit of relief for those of you still dealing with snow and cold. I've put together a little YouTube video for your enjoyment - or at least I hope you will enjoy it. I have some new toys, including a new pc which does lots of things I was not able to do before and a hand-held digital recording device which I can take out into the garden with me. Early this morning I made a recording of the birds singing in the rain just before dawn. To this soundtrack I've added a little slide show of plants of the season in the garden. This is my first attempt at a You Tube video; take a look here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-UJLOAaxZ8 Jim McKenney ___ Alpine-l mailing list Alpine-l@science.uu.nl http://mailman.science.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/alpine-l___ Alpine-l mailing list Alpine-l@science.uu.nl http://mailman.science.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/alpine-l
Re: [Alpine-l] Springtime photos
Great to see all the colour--the only colours here were brow/grey and white, and today its all white again! 20cm or so of snow overnight, still coming down.. Cohan Fulford West Central Alberta, Canada, Zone 2-3 record temps from 10-20 miles away: min -45C/-49F;max 34C/93F http://picasaweb.google.com/cactuscactus Deafening? Here's something to liven things up a bit. Panayoti has prompted me to provide a bit of relief for those of you still dealing with snow and cold. I've put together a little YouTube video for your enjoyment - or at least I hope you will enjoy it. I have some new toys, including a new pc which does lots of things I was not able to do before and a hand-held digital recording device which I can take out into the garden with me. Early this morning I made a recording of the birds singing in the rain just before dawn. To this soundtrack I've added a little slide show of plants of the season in the garden. This is my first attempt at a You Tube video; take a look here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-UJLOAaxZ8 Jim McKenney ___ -- ___ Alpine-l mailing list Alpine-l@science.uu.nl http://mailman.science.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/alpine-l
[Alpine-l] Springtime photos
The silence on Alpine-L is deafening! Here we seem to be in the midst of another miraculous spring (albeit we have had almost no precipitation): it has been quite cool with light frosts (although one night into the low twenties did fry the early magnolias ten days ago: many in shadier aspects made it through, however, and there are some magnificent Magnolia x soulangeana blooming again!). Right now the flowering trees are mostly at or near peak (all the plums/pears/peaches/cherries/crabs/redbuds/etc. etc. making for lively streetscapes.) The bright but cool days encourage everything to bloom their heads off and last forever. Things have been in such suspended animation I've had a chance to capture some things that often go dashing by, so to speak. I posted this link on the NARGS forum, but I suspect not all of you are dedicated forumists yet: http://public.fotki.com/Panayoti/denver-march-2010/ And I bet that your own gardens are all starting to explode as well! Hope you all too are having an enchanting April! Don't you love springtime? Panayoti Kelaidis Denver, Colorado (USA) Zone 5___ Alpine-l mailing list Alpine-l@science.uu.nl http://mailman.science.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/alpine-l
Re: [Alpine-l] Springtime photos
Panayoti The volume of posts is sure a change from when everyone was snowed in. Jim Would you have Trillium Grandiflorum 'Jenny Rhodes' ? -- Larry Wallace Cincinnati ___ Alpine-l mailing list Alpine-l@science.uu.nl http://mailman.science.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/alpine-l
Re: [Alpine-l] Springtime photos
Sounds like a great trail, Jim! Spring is still at a much earlier stage here, nothing thinking of flowering yet, most beds still deep under snow, and more on the way! Cohan On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 12:47 PM, J.E. Shields jshie...@indy.net wrote: Larry, My things, Trillium and other, are mostly wild collected, so I don't have the named forms. I do have a few interesting color forms TT. rugelii, simile, and maybe a couple others. No pink or double T. grandiflora, however. A couple T. luteum are in bloom too, I just noticed. Along the Monon Trail, Erythronium americanum and E. albidum are in bloom today, but weren't on Monday. Jim Shields in central Indiana USA N.B. The Monon Trail is an old railroad right-of-way from the Monon Railroad that has been improved and paved. It runs from the northeast corner of downtown Indianapolis north through the cities of Carmel and Westfield (so far). ___ Alpine-l mailing list Alpine-l@science.uu.nl http://mailman.science.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/alpine-l
Re: [Alpine-l] Springtime photos
I enjoyed your aubade, Jim...there is a rather surprising added bonus following it, however: Aubade lingerie had a Youtube video of their latest line, modeled by delightful models. The ratio of lingerie to model is extremely minimal. I must be a plant nerd: I found your flowers to be just as sexy! - Original Message - From: Jim McKenney jamesamcken...@verizon.net To: the Electronic Rock Garden Society postings copyright by authors.Alpine-L alpine-l@science.uu.nl Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 6:29:35 PM Subject: Re: [Alpine-l] Springtime photos Deafening? Here's something to liven things up a bit. Panayoti has prompted me to provide a bit of relief for those of you still dealing with snow and cold. I've put together a little YouTube video for your enjoyment - or at least I hope you will enjoy it. I have some new toys, including a new pc which does lots of things I was not able to do before and a hand-held digital recording device which I can take out into the garden with me. Early this morning I made a recording of the birds singing in the rain just before dawn. To this soundtrack I've added a little slide show of plants of the season in the garden. This is my first attempt at a You Tube video; take a look here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-UJLOAaxZ8 Jim McKenney ___ Alpine-l mailing list Alpine-l@science.uu.nl http://mailman.science.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/alpine-l ___ Alpine-l mailing list Alpine-l@science.uu.nl http://mailman.science.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/alpine-l
