[android-developers] Re: Low Latency Audio is gettting worse not better
What numbers? What are you running and how? Can I duplicate your findings using standard dev tools? On Jan 18, 4:04 pm, Anton Persson don.juan...@gmail.com wrote: Doug, the Case in point shows that hardware is not the issue... Using a STANDARD Linux audio engine (Pulse) showed 10 times improved latency figures on the Galaxy Nexus compared the default Android engine... This phone is not using cutting edge audio hardware! With those numbers doing what I want is definitely possible! So This is definitely caused by Googles software! regards Anton On Jan 18, 2012 8:47 AM, Doug beafd...@gmail.com wrote: I would hazard a guess that a vast majority of consumer mobile devices are already not suitable hardware for whatever your pro audio requirements are. It's hard enough to find a regular consumer priced PC audio board that had low latency audio and low noise. You pretty much have to buy special hardware. It sounds like there is a fire burning underneath you to get something to work. If so, you might want to hire a consulting firm to investigate what it really takes to get pro quality audio out of a mobile device. My guess is that you'd have to commission both the hardware and a customized Android kernel. Doug On Dec 11 2011, 2:48 pm, Bh1 boosthardw...@gmail.com wrote: However the real question is after three years of constant development why has audio latency got worse across the board instead of better? Is it even worth anyones time to try to get something better in place as there appears to be an agenda to make sure that android is not suitable for pro audio requirements. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Android Developers group. To post to this group, send email to android-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to android-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers?hl=en -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Android Developers group. To post to this group, send email to android-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to android-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers?hl=en
[android-developers] Re: Low Latency Audio is gettting worse not better
here: http://arunraghavan.net/2012/01/pulseaudio-vs-audioflinger-fight/ (Round 4: Latency) On Jan 19, 9:07 am, Doug beafd...@gmail.com wrote: What numbers? What are you running and how? Can I duplicate your findings using standard dev tools? -- bdk -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Android Developers group. To post to this group, send email to android-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to android-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers?hl=en
Re: [android-developers] Re: Low Latency Audio is gettting worse not better
Doug, I had the link to the stuff I'm referring to in my first post: http://arunraghavan.net/2012/01/pulseaudio-vs-audioflinger-fight/ Just to clarify a misunderstanding here too, these are note MY findings.. I am only referring to the work of Arun Raghavan, who did the analysis... As a side note - my application runs also on the Open Moko phone. With much lower latency, with a really ancient CPU... (ARM920) So it's laughable if we can't get better numbers on todays high end phones! /Anton On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 9:07 AM, Doug beafd...@gmail.com wrote: What numbers? What are you running and how? Can I duplicate your findings using standard dev tools? On Jan 18, 4:04 pm, Anton Persson don.juan...@gmail.com wrote: Doug, the Case in point shows that hardware is not the issue... Using a STANDARD Linux audio engine (Pulse) showed 10 times improved latency figures on the Galaxy Nexus compared the default Android engine... This phone is not using cutting edge audio hardware! With those numbers doing what I want is definitely possible! So This is definitely caused by Googles software! regards Anton On Jan 18, 2012 8:47 AM, Doug beafd...@gmail.com wrote: I would hazard a guess that a vast majority of consumer mobile devices are already not suitable hardware for whatever your pro audio requirements are. It's hard enough to find a regular consumer priced PC audio board that had low latency audio and low noise. You pretty much have to buy special hardware. It sounds like there is a fire burning underneath you to get something to work. If so, you might want to hire a consulting firm to investigate what it really takes to get pro quality audio out of a mobile device. My guess is that you'd have to commission both the hardware and a customized Android kernel. Doug On Dec 11 2011, 2:48 pm, Bh1 boosthardw...@gmail.com wrote: However the real question is after three years of constant development why has audio latency got worse across the board instead of better? Is it even worth anyones time to try to get something better in place as there appears to be an agenda to make sure that android is not suitable for pro audio requirements. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Android Developers group. To post to this group, send email to android-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to android-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers?hl=en -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Android Developers group. To post to this group, send email to android-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to android-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers?hl=en -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Android Developers group. To post to this group, send email to android-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to android-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers?hl=en
[android-developers] Re: Low Latency Audio is gettting worse not better
No one is expecting to run Pro Tools on existing Android devices; however there are pro audio applications that can be addressed. I am not sure why you believe that new hardware would need to be commissioned. In regards to audio I/O, much is being done today using USB audio devices. As far as processing power, do what can be done today and wait for Moore's Law to run its course. Regarding Android kernel issues, this is what is under discussion in this thread. If Google were to attack the latency problem it would be a major step towards pro audio support with the mainstream kernel. Otherwise, I suppose that you are correct. It would require that an OEM release a device with the necessary OS modifications to address this market. I feel that Anton is very forward thinking in pursuing this issue. Attacking niche markets such as this is a valid strategy for gaining market share, and how sweet to go after Apple on what is in many ways their own turf. On Jan 17, 11:46 pm, Doug beafd...@gmail.com wrote: I would hazard a guess that a vast majority of consumer mobile devices are already not suitable hardware for whatever your pro audio requirements are. It's hard enough to find a regular consumer priced PC audio board that had low latency audio and low noise. You pretty much have to buy special hardware. It sounds like there is a fire burning underneath you to get something to work. If so, you might want to hire a consulting firm to investigate what it really takes to get pro quality audio out of a mobile device. My guess is that you'd have to commission both the hardware and a customized Android kernel. Doug On Dec 11 2011, 2:48 pm, Bh1 boosthardw...@gmail.com wrote: However the real question is after three years of constant development why has audio latency got worse across the board instead of better? Is it even worth anyones time to try to get something better in place as there appears to be an agenda to make sure that android is not suitable for pro audio requirements. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Android Developers group. To post to this group, send email to android-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to android-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers?hl=en
[android-developers] Re: Low Latency Audio is gettting worse not better
Since there has not been much progress in this area for years, I wouldn't expect it to change anytime soon. Which is sad because iOS destroys Android in this domain hands down. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Android Developers group. To post to this group, send email to android-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to android-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers?hl=en
Re: [android-developers] Re: Low Latency Audio is gettting worse not better
Doug, the Case in point shows that hardware is not the issue... Using a STANDARD Linux audio engine (Pulse) showed 10 times improved latency figures on the Galaxy Nexus compared the default Android engine... This phone is not using cutting edge audio hardware! With those numbers doing what I want is definitely possible! So This is definitely caused by Googles software! regards Anton On Jan 18, 2012 8:47 AM, Doug beafd...@gmail.com wrote: I would hazard a guess that a vast majority of consumer mobile devices are already not suitable hardware for whatever your pro audio requirements are. It's hard enough to find a regular consumer priced PC audio board that had low latency audio and low noise. You pretty much have to buy special hardware. It sounds like there is a fire burning underneath you to get something to work. If so, you might want to hire a consulting firm to investigate what it really takes to get pro quality audio out of a mobile device. My guess is that you'd have to commission both the hardware and a customized Android kernel. Doug On Dec 11 2011, 2:48 pm, Bh1 boosthardw...@gmail.com wrote: However the real question is after three years of constant development why has audio latency got worse across the board instead of better? Is it even worth anyones time to try to get something better in place as there appears to be an agenda to make sure that android is not suitable for pro audio requirements. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Android Developers group. To post to this group, send email to android-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to android-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers?hl=en -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Android Developers group. To post to this group, send email to android-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to android-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers?hl=en
[android-developers] Re: Low Latency Audio is gettting worse not better
I would hazard a guess that a vast majority of consumer mobile devices are already not suitable hardware for whatever your pro audio requirements are. It's hard enough to find a regular consumer priced PC audio board that had low latency audio and low noise. You pretty much have to buy special hardware. It sounds like there is a fire burning underneath you to get something to work. If so, you might want to hire a consulting firm to investigate what it really takes to get pro quality audio out of a mobile device. My guess is that you'd have to commission both the hardware and a customized Android kernel. Doug On Dec 11 2011, 2:48 pm, Bh1 boosthardw...@gmail.com wrote: However the real question is after three years of constant development why has audio latency got worse across the board instead of better? Is it even worth anyones time to try to get something better in place as there appears to be an agenda to make sure that android is not suitable for pro audio requirements. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Android Developers group. To post to this group, send email to android-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to android-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers?hl=en
Re: [android-developers] Re: Low Latency Audio is gettting worse not better
I have been porting my music production app to Android, and some features CAN NOT BE IMPLEMENTED without lower latency, period. This includes any feature where a dynamic sound is to be generated by user interaction. Some people have said well, there is this piano-application that has low latency, but those apps are not generating a continuous stream of audio, dynamically... So I can't do what they do.. We need to have audio stream objects with short buffers, basically.. It feels sad when I know what I could do if someone just got their a** out of bed one day! There seem to be people who have patched Android to get low latency, like this: http://arunraghavan.net/2012/01/pulseaudio-vs-audioflinger-fight/ With pulse audio we are talking almost ten times faster latency than stock Android AudioFlinger! And the work is open source! I sure wish Google would just lift that and make the AudioFlinger wrapper as suggested! Or just fix AudioFlinger, if they wanna invent the wheel again... I don't care about how they do it, JUST DO IT already! /Anton On Mon, Dec 12, 2011 at 4:44 PM, RLScott fixthatpi...@yahoo.com wrote: Could you please summarize the current state of audio latency and which applications are hurt by the current latency? On Dec 11, 5:48 pm, Bh1 boosthardw...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, Recently there have been discussion on the andraudio list about the perplexing lack of progress for low latency audio on the android platform over the past three years. We have kicked around a few possible options like reworking and testing the stack on CM7/9, modifying TinyALSA to allow an API for low latency, adding JACK support or lobbying the developers of the existing audio stack to sort this problem out. Others have suggested that the real solution is to fix AudioFlinger and AudioHAL layers and get that merged upstream. However the real question is after three years of constant development why has audio latency got worse across the board instead of better? Is it even worth anyones time to try to get something better in place as there appears to be an agenda to make sure that android is not suitable for pro audio requirements. Without any information from the people who are responsible for the current state of the audio stack we are all just guessing as to how we can fix this problem or if it is even possible or desired by the Google team. -- Patrick Shirkey Boost Hardware Ltd -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Android Developers group. To post to this group, send email to android-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to android-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers?hl=en -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Android Developers group. To post to this group, send email to android-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to android-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers?hl=en
[android-developers] Re: Low Latency Audio is gettting worse not better
Could you please summarize the current state of audio latency and which applications are hurt by the current latency? On Dec 11, 5:48 pm, Bh1 boosthardw...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, Recently there have been discussion on the andraudio list about the perplexing lack of progress for low latency audio on the android platform over the past three years. We have kicked around a few possible options like reworking and testing the stack on CM7/9, modifying TinyALSA to allow an API for low latency, adding JACK support or lobbying the developers of the existing audio stack to sort this problem out. Others have suggested that the real solution is to fix AudioFlinger and AudioHAL layers and get that merged upstream. However the real question is after three years of constant development why has audio latency got worse across the board instead of better? Is it even worth anyones time to try to get something better in place as there appears to be an agenda to make sure that android is not suitable for pro audio requirements. Without any information from the people who are responsible for the current state of the audio stack we are all just guessing as to how we can fix this problem or if it is even possible or desired by the Google team. -- Patrick Shirkey Boost Hardware Ltd -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Android Developers group. To post to this group, send email to android-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to android-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers?hl=en
