Re: [android-developers] Recover Certificate from APK

2013-07-23 Thread Piren
Actually the instructions state you should use 25+ years for a single 
application; more if you sign multiple applications (there's a 20 year 
minimum for app on Google Play)
If you encounter this issue in 25 years, post it on their 
future-holodeck-message-board :-)  I think the idea behind this is that 99% 
of apps would not last this long or at least would not last as the same 
code base.



On Tuesday, July 23, 2013 3:07:06 AM UTC+3, Raymond Rodgers wrote:

  On 07/22/2013 12:08 AM, Ted Hopp wrote:

 On Thursday, June 14, 2012 12:43:51 PM UTC-4, Dianne Hackborn wrote:

  The platform has an app signed with a cert.  If you want to install an 
 update to that app under a different cert, how could the platform trust 
 that this is actually coming from the author who owns the original cert 
 without the new app also being signed in some way with the original cert? 
  Note that we don't use certificate authorities, so there is no root cert 
 or such to go back to, to try to verify some relationship between two 
 certs.  Because we use self-signing, you are ultimately the CA, and have 
 responsibility for the certs you generate.
  

  I know this is an old thread, but this caught my attention. Would it not 
 be possible to come up with a tool with which a developer could somehow use 
 the old cert as the authority for the new one? After all, the developer is 
 the only one with access to the private key, so a new cert could be 
 signed by the old one just as an .apk file is signed.

  I've been wondering about this issue a bit for a while now though it was 
 never really at a high importance level. Although it's been a while since I 
 created my keystore, I believe that the instructions we were given 
 originally said to make the key valid for 10 years. What are developers 
 supposed to do when that 10 year mark is up? For instance, what if my app 
 has been receiving regular updates for that entire 10 year period, and at 
 the 10 years and 1 day mark, I need to update it again. The key has 
 expired, so I can't technically update the application in the Play Store. 
 Is there a way to regenerate the key or extend the expiration date? If not, 
 is there a plan? Android has a ways to go before the ten year anniversary, 
 but I hope there's a plan in place for dealing with this [possible] issue.

 -- 
 Raymond Rodgershttp://www.badlucksoft.com/http://anevilgeni.us/

  

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Re: [android-developers] Recover Certificate from APK

2013-07-22 Thread Raymond Rodgers

On 07/22/2013 12:08 AM, Ted Hopp wrote:

On Thursday, June 14, 2012 12:43:51 PM UTC-4, Dianne Hackborn wrote:

The platform has an app signed with a cert.  If you want to
install an update to that app under a different cert, how could
the platform trust that this is actually coming from the author
who owns the original cert without the new app also being signed
in some way with the original cert?  Note that we don't use
certificate authorities, so there is no root cert or such to go
back to, to try to verify some relationship between two certs.
 Because we use self-signing, you are ultimately the CA, and have
responsibility for the certs you generate.


I know this is an old thread, but this caught my attention. Would it 
not be possible to come up with a tool with which a developer could 
somehow use the old cert as the authority for the new one? After all, 
the developer is the only one with access to the private key, so a new 
cert could be signed by the old one just as an .apk file is signed.


I've been wondering about this issue a bit for a while now though it was 
never really at a high importance level. Although it's been a while 
since I created my keystore, I believe that the instructions we were 
given originally said to make the key valid for 10 years. What are 
developers supposed to do when that 10 year mark is up? For instance, 
what if my app has been receiving regular updates for that entire 10 
year period, and at the 10 years and 1 day mark, I need to update it 
again. The key has expired, so I can't technically update the 
application in the Play Store. Is there a way to regenerate the key or 
extend the expiration date? If not, is there a plan? Android has a ways 
to go before the ten year anniversary, but I hope there's a plan in 
place for dealing with this [possible] issue.


--
Raymond Rodgers
http://www.badlucksoft.com/
http://anevilgeni.us/

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Re: [android-developers] Recover Certificate from APK

2013-07-21 Thread Ted Hopp
On Thursday, June 14, 2012 12:43:51 PM UTC-4, Dianne Hackborn wrote:

 The platform has an app signed with a cert.  If you want to install an 
 update to that app under a different cert, how could the platform trust 
 that this is actually coming from the author who owns the original cert 
 without the new app also being signed in some way with the original cert? 
  Note that we don't use certificate authorities, so there is no root cert 
 or such to go back to, to try to verify some relationship between two 
 certs.  Because we use self-signing, you are ultimately the CA, and have 
 responsibility for the certs you generate.


I know this is an old thread, but this caught my attention. Would it not be 
possible to come up with a tool with which a developer could somehow use 
the old cert as the authority for the new one? After all, the developer is 
the only one with access to the private key, so a new cert could be 
signed by the old one just as an .apk file is signed.

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Re: [android-developers] Recover Certificate from APK

2013-07-21 Thread Nikolay Elenkov
On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 1:08 PM, Ted Hopp ted.h...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Thursday, June 14, 2012 12:43:51 PM UTC-4, Dianne Hackborn wrote:

 The platform has an app signed with a cert.  If you want to install an
 update to that app under a different cert, how could the platform trust that
 this is actually coming from the author who owns the original cert without
 the new app also being signed in some way with the original cert?  Note that
 we don't use certificate authorities, so there is no root cert or such to go
 back to, to try to verify some relationship between two certs.  Because we
 use self-signing, you are ultimately the CA, and have responsibility for the
 certs you generate.

Technically, yes (Cf, bridge certificates, etc.). Android however doesn't really
 understand X.509 certificates as such: it performs binary comparison on the
DER encoded certificate blob to check whether the signer is the same or
different, that's it. This is pretty central to the whole package management
/security model, so a very big part of the core OS will need to be re-written.
Thus, not likely to happen anytime soon.

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Re: [android-developers] Recover Certificate from APK

2012-06-18 Thread Raphael P.F.
Actually, you should have a fall back plan. It's easy to backup your key.

On Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 11:35 AM, Saurav to.saurav.mukher...@gmail.comwrote:

 Thanks Mark.
 You have always helped me out, now and in the past!
 I know that the encryption is irreversible, wanted to know if there is a
 workaround for upgrading!

 Could someone convey this to Google, that, loosing a keystore is possible,
 highly STUPID, but possible.
 They should have a fall back plan! To upgrade the application, with
 another keystore or some other secure procedure. Just a thought!

 I am left at the mercy of my downloaders, to shift to the new application,
 as I need to put my upgraded application as a new application.




 Regards,
 Saurav Mukherjee.



 On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 10:33 PM, Raghav Sood raghavs...@gmail.comwrote:

 Digital signatures are based upon public-key cryptography. You cannot
 recover a private key given a public key -- that's the whole point of
 public-key crypto. Such algorithms are based on one-way functions:
 things that are easy to do but hard to reverse.


 This is enough. I know what public key encryption is and how it works, I
 just didn't know that it was used in this case. This clarifies my question.

 Thanks

 --
 Raghav Sood
 Please do not email private questions to me as I do not have time to
 answer them. Instead, post them to public forums where others and I can
 answer and benefit from them.
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 http://www.apress.com/9781430239451 - Author
 +91 81 303 77248

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Re: [android-developers] Recover Certificate from APK

2012-06-18 Thread Saurav
Thank you so much Dianne and Others for your quick and strong response.

I don't know whether any of you did not get the point that I know it was
my mistake, to lose the keystore file. No doubt on that :)

Anyways, as you all said, I have put my new keystore in my git repo. Fall
back

Regards,
Saurav Mukherjee.


On Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 8:11 PM, Raphael P.F.
raphaelpfmontan...@gmail.comwrote:

 Actually, you should have a fall back plan. It's easy to backup your key.


 On Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 11:35 AM, Saurav to.saurav.mukher...@gmail.comwrote:

 Thanks Mark.
 You have always helped me out, now and in the past!
 I know that the encryption is irreversible, wanted to know if there is a
 workaround for upgrading!

 Could someone convey this to Google, that, loosing a keystore is
 possible, highly STUPID, but possible.
 They should have a fall back plan! To upgrade the application, with
 another keystore or some other secure procedure. Just a thought!

 I am left at the mercy of my downloaders, to shift to the new
 application, as I need to put my upgraded application as a new application.




 Regards,
 Saurav Mukherjee.



 On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 10:33 PM, Raghav Sood raghavs...@gmail.comwrote:

 Digital signatures are based upon public-key cryptography. You cannot
 recover a private key given a public key -- that's the whole point of
 public-key crypto. Such algorithms are based on one-way functions:
 things that are easy to do but hard to reverse.


 This is enough. I know what public key encryption is and how it works, I
 just didn't know that it was used in this case. This clarifies my question.

 Thanks

 --
 Raghav Sood
 Please do not email private questions to me as I do not have time to
 answer them. Instead, post them to public forums where others and I can
 answer and benefit from them.
 http://www.appaholics.in/ - Founder
 http://www.apress.com/9781430239451 - Author
 +91 81 303 77248

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Re: [android-developers] Recover Certificate from APK

2012-06-18 Thread Mark Murphy
On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 6:41 AM, Saurav to.saurav.mukher...@gmail.com wrote:
 Anyways, as you all said, I have put my new keystore in my git repo.

Um, I really hope that's a private repo. Backed up does not mean
published for the world to see.

-- 
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_The Busy Coder's Guide to Android Development_ Version 3.7 Available!

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Re: [android-developers] Recover Certificate from APK

2012-06-18 Thread Saurav
Ha ha!
It is not public, Mark.


Regards,
Saurav Mukherjee.


On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 4:14 PM, Mark Murphy mmur...@commonsware.comwrote:

 see

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Re: [android-developers] Recover Certificate from APK

2012-06-18 Thread Mark Murphy
On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 7:31 AM, Saurav to.saurav.mukher...@gmail.com wrote:
 Ha ha!
 It is not public, Mark.

That's good. I'm willing to bet that there's a few dozen projects
floating around, though, who *did* upload their keystore into a public
git repo. That's bad -- they are one Google account hack away from
having their apps replaced by malware-ridden ones on the Play Store.

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Re: [android-developers] Recover Certificate from APK

2012-06-18 Thread Saurav
I understand!

Thanks again everyone!

Regards,
Saurav Mukherjee.


On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 8:32 PM, Mark Murphy mmur...@commonsware.comwrote:

 On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 7:31 AM, Saurav to.saurav.mukher...@gmail.com
 wrote:
  Ha ha!
  It is not public, Mark.

 That's good. I'm willing to bet that there's a few dozen projects
 floating around, though, who *did* upload their keystore into a public
 git repo. That's bad -- they are one Google account hack away from
 having their apps replaced by malware-ridden ones on the Play Store.

 --
 Mark Murphy (a Commons Guy)
 http://commonsware.com | http://github.com/commonsguy
 http://commonsware.com/blog | http://twitter.com/commonsguy

 _The Busy Coder's Guide to Android Development_ Version 3.7 Available!

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Re: [android-developers] Recover Certificate from APK

2012-06-14 Thread Saurav
Thanks Mark.
You have always helped me out, now and in the past!
I know that the encryption is irreversible, wanted to know if there is a
workaround for upgrading!

Could someone convey this to Google, that, loosing a keystore is possible,
highly STUPID, but possible.
They should have a fall back plan! To upgrade the application, with another
keystore or some other secure procedure. Just a thought!

I am left at the mercy of my downloaders, to shift to the new application,
as I need to put my upgraded application as a new application.




Regards,
Saurav Mukherjee.


On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 10:33 PM, Raghav Sood raghavs...@gmail.com wrote:

 Digital signatures are based upon public-key cryptography. You cannot
 recover a private key given a public key -- that's the whole point of
 public-key crypto. Such algorithms are based on one-way functions:
 things that are easy to do but hard to reverse.


 This is enough. I know what public key encryption is and how it works, I
 just didn't know that it was used in this case. This clarifies my question.

 Thanks

 --
 Raghav Sood
 Please do not email private questions to me as I do not have time to
 answer them. Instead, post them to public forums where others and I can
 answer and benefit from them.
 http://www.appaholics.in/ - Founder
 http://www.apress.com/9781430239451 - Author
 +91 81 303 77248

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 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
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Re: [android-developers] Recover Certificate from APK

2012-06-14 Thread Kristopher Micinski
On Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 10:35 AM, Saurav to.saurav.mukher...@gmail.com wrote:
 Thanks Mark.
 You have always helped me out, now and in the past!
 I know that the encryption is irreversible, wanted to know if there is a
 workaround for upgrading!

 Could someone convey this to Google, that, loosing a keystore is possible,
 highly STUPID, but possible.
 They should have a fall back plan! To upgrade the application, with another
 keystore or some other secure procedure. Just a thought!

 I am left at the mercy of my downloaders, to shift to the new application,
 as I need to put my upgraded application as a new application.


I think they will point to the highly stupid case.. What are you
hoping for?  Some sort of way you can log into your account, and tell
the store manually?

kris

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Re: [android-developers] Recover Certificate from APK

2012-06-14 Thread Mark Murphy
On Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 10:35 AM, Saurav to.saurav.mukher...@gmail.com wrote:
 They should have a fall back plan! To upgrade the application, with another
 keystore or some other secure procedure. Just a thought!

That would be the responsibility of the Play Store people, who are not
on this list AFAIK.

-- 
Mark Murphy (a Commons Guy)
http://commonsware.com | http://github.com/commonsguy
http://commonsware.com/blog | http://twitter.com/commonsguy

Android Training in DC: http://marakana.com/training/android/

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Re: [android-developers] Recover Certificate from APK

2012-06-14 Thread Dianne Hackborn
On Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 9:05 AM, Mark Murphy mmur...@commonsware.comwrote:

 On Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 10:35 AM, Saurav to.saurav.mukher...@gmail.com
 wrote:
  They should have a fall back plan! To upgrade the application, with
 another
  keystore or some other secure procedure. Just a thought!
 That would be the responsibility of the Play Store people, who are not
 on this list AFAIK.


They can't do anything, they don't have your private key.

The platform has an app signed with a cert.  If you want to install an
update to that app under a different cert, how could the platform trust
that this is actually coming from the author who owns the original cert
without the new app also being signed in some way with the original cert?
 Note that we don't use certificate authorities, so there is no root cert
or such to go back to, to try to verify some relationship between two
certs.  Because we use self-signing, you are ultimately the CA, and have
responsibility for the certs you generate.

-- 
Dianne Hackborn
Android framework engineer
hack...@android.com

Note: please don't send private questions to me, as I don't have time to
provide private support, and so won't reply to such e-mails.  All such
questions should be posted on public forums, where I and others can see and
answer them.

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Re: [android-developers] Recover Certificate from APK

2012-06-14 Thread TreKing
On Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 9:35 AM, Saurav to.saurav.mukher...@gmail.comwrote:

 Could someone convey this to Google, that, loosing a keystore is possible,
 highly STUPID, but possible.
 They should have a fall back plan!


Really though, *you* should have a fall back plan. You backed up your APKs?
Why didn't you back up the keystore?

-
TreKing http://sites.google.com/site/rezmobileapps/treking - Chicago
transit tracking app for Android-powered devices

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[android-developers] Recover Certificate from APK

2012-06-13 Thread Saurav
Hi all,

I am in a bit of a soup.
I have lost my keystore file for my signed apk, which is in market. Is
there any way I can extract the certificate from the backup apks that I
have?
Any hack? Please. Mercy. I really need to push an update to the application
in the market.

Thanks in advance!


Regards,
Saurav Mukherjee.

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Re: [android-developers] Recover Certificate from APK

2012-06-13 Thread Mark Murphy
On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 12:00 PM, Saurav to.saurav.mukher...@gmail.com wrote:
 I have lost my keystore file for my signed apk, which is in market. Is there
 any way I can extract the certificate from the backup apks that I have?

No. It is mathematically impossible to recover a keystore from
something signed with that keystore.

-- 
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Re: [android-developers] Recover Certificate from APK

2012-06-13 Thread Raghav Sood

 No. It is mathematically impossible to recover a keystore from
 something signed with that keystore.


I know this isn't related to the list, but I've always wondered about that
part. Could anybody explain how it is mathematically impossible, or point
me to a good link?

Thanks
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Re: [android-developers] Recover Certificate from APK

2012-06-13 Thread Mark Murphy
On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 12:53 PM, Raghav Sood raghavs...@gmail.com wrote:
 I know this isn't related to the list, but I've always wondered about that
 part. Could anybody explain how it is mathematically impossible

Digital signatures are based upon public-key cryptography. You cannot
recover a private key given a public key -- that's the whole point of
public-key crypto. Such algorithms are based on one-way functions:
things that are easy to do but hard to reverse.

I don't have ready links on the subject, but I'd start with Wikipedia
and roll from there. There are also several books on the subject.

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Re: [android-developers] Recover Certificate from APK

2012-06-13 Thread Kristopher Micinski
That's right, this should be covered in any basic crypto text..

kris

On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 12:53 PM, Raghav Sood raghavs...@gmail.com wrote:
 No. It is mathematically impossible to recover a keystore from
 something signed with that keystore.


 I know this isn't related to the list, but I've always wondered about that
 part. Could anybody explain how it is mathematically impossible, or point me
 to a good link?

 Thanks
 --
 Raghav Sood
 Please do not email private questions to me as I do not have time to answer
 them. Instead, post them to public forums where others and I can answer and
 benefit from them.
 http://www.appaholics.in/ - Founder
 http://www.apress.com/9781430239451 - Author
 +91 81 303 77248

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Re: [android-developers] Recover Certificate from APK

2012-06-13 Thread Raghav Sood

 Digital signatures are based upon public-key cryptography. You cannot
 recover a private key given a public key -- that's the whole point of
 public-key crypto. Such algorithms are based on one-way functions:
 things that are easy to do but hard to reverse.


This is enough. I know what public key encryption is and how it works, I
just didn't know that it was used in this case. This clarifies my question.

Thanks

--
Raghav Sood
Please do not email private questions to me as I do not have time to answer
them. Instead, post them to public forums where others and I can answer and
benefit from them.
http://www.appaholics.in/ - Founder
http://www.apress.com/9781430239451 - Author
+91 81 303 77248

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