Re: [apple-crop] Narrow Tall Spindle Layout
FL56 is a rootstock smaller than most 9's. It is not fireblight resistant. I have been told it likes to top out around 8 feet. Availability may be an issue. On Fri, Jul 4, 2014 at 4:20 PM, Matt Pellerin m...@treworgyorchards.com wrote: The reason I am so interested in maximizing production is because we have significant space limitations and are currently unable to meet the demand of our customers. That's motivation to look for the system which provides a good picking experience while reaching the maximum possible production. Matt On Jul 4, 2014 11:29 AM, Arthur Kelly kellyorcha...@gmail.com wrote: Maximum yield isn't necessarily the same thing as maximum sales. In my opinion, the selling is more important than anything else. Yes, good yields of good quality fruit is important, but being good at selling and how much you are able to get for what you have to sell trumps everything else. If you are able to sell for $40.00/bu what needs to happen to get that price in terms of customer experience is the priority. p.s. No, we are not able to get that much but there are farms in the area that do. We still wholesale a large percentage of the crop. Art Kelly Kelly Orchards Acton, Maine On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 2:13 PM, David Doud david_d...@me.com wrote: not an expert here, but it's my understanding in a spindle system the space between trees in the row is determined by what renewal pruning will fill and that much over 3' between trees in most situations would require permanent woody architecture to keep the space filled, which brings about several horticultural challenges - then the space between rows versus the height of the trees becomes a calculation to maximize yield - in a you-pick situation I'd suggest that maximum yield would be a secondary consideration to logistics - that wider rows and shorter trees for convenience and safety would override a certain percentage of maximum theoretical yield - I shudder to consider what strategies the public might employ to harvest that beautiful apple just out of their reach... if my understanding is incorrect, feel free to challenge - David On Jul 3, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Matt Pellerin wrote: Thanks for the responses. I was thinking of going to a 10 x 3 orchard growing Honeycrisp on M26 and Macoun on Bud 9. I think the 10 x 3 spacing puts the tree height at 8.5' which will work pretty well for pick-your-own. On this kind of spacing, will I still be within the Tall Spindle category? Will I have to make adjustments in my pruning methodology or will the typical tall spindle pruning and training recommendations work? Thanks, Matt On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 8:26 AM, kuffelcr...@kuffelcreek.com wrote: I concur with Dennis' evaluation of Dr. Robinson's videos; this system has forced even stubborn high-chill varieties to transition from vegetative mode to fruiting mode in hot climates and the tropics. I wanted to address Matthew's desire to keep the trees around 6' tall. This sounds like it would take a very dwarfing rootstock like M27; do any of our growers have experience training these as tall spindle? Kevin Hauser Kuffel Creek Apple Nursery Riverside, California Nakifuma, Uganda On Thu, 3 Jul 2014 00:23:19 -0500, dmnor...@royaloakfarmorchard.com wrote: matthew, We have been growing tall spindle in northern Illinois in a pick-your-own orchard for around 5 or 6 years now. The system has been improving over the years and currently the newer spacing being recommended by Dr. Terence Robinson from Cornell is around 12' x 3'. I highly recommend watching the videos at YouTube he did at the Winter Apple School in Henderson County, NC found at http://youtu.be/gJF4wLgXnK8 After viewing this video and others on the BRCC TV - The Educational Channel on YouTube covering the Tall Spindle System, we will be making the recommended changes to our current system of 14' x 4'. Hope this helps. Dennis Norton IPM Specialist/Certified Nurseryman Royal Oak Farm Orchard 15908 Hebron Rd. Harvard, IL 60033-9357 Office (815) 648-4467 Mobile (815) 228-2174 Fax (609) 228-2174 http://www.royaloakfarmorchard.com http://www.royaloakfarmorchard.blogspot.com - Original Message - From: Matt Pellerin To: apple-crop@virtualorchard.net Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2014 2:55 PM Subject: [apple-crop] Narrow Tall Spindle Layout I am a grower in central Maine that operates a pick-your-own orchard. I will be planting a tall spindle orchard next year. I would like to plant the rows as narrow as possible in combination with shorter trees so the customers can reach more of the fruit. My orchard tractor is 54 wide. How narrow can I plant my tall spindle orchard with this equipment? Also, what would be the appropriate tree height at the narrow row spacing? Thanks, -- Matthew Pellerin
Re: [apple-crop] Narrow Tall Spindle Layout
: Wednesday, July 02, 2014 2:55 PM Subject: [apple-crop] Narrow Tall Spindle Layout I am a grower in central Maine that operates a pick-your-own orchard. I will be planting a tall spindle orchard next year. I would like to plant the rows as narrow as possible in combination with shorter trees so the customers can reach more of the fruit. My orchard tractor is 54 wide. How narrow can I plant my tall spindle orchard with this equipment? Also, what would be the appropriate tree height at the narrow row spacing? Thanks, -- Matthew Pellerin Agricultural Manager Treworgy Family Orchards 3876 Union St Levant, ME 04456 www.treworgyorchards.com 207-884-8354 -- ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop -- Matthew Pellerin Agricultural Manager Treworgy Family Orchards 3876 Union St Levant, ME 04456 www.treworgyorchards.com 207-884-8354 ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop -- Kevin Hauser ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop -- Michael D. Vaughn Owner / Manager Pie-In-the-Sky Orchards ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
Re: [apple-crop] Narrow Tall Spindle Layout
Maximum yield isn't necessarily the same thing as maximum sales. In my opinion, the selling is more important than anything else. Yes, good yields of good quality fruit is important, but being good at selling and how much you are able to get for what you have to sell trumps everything else. If you are able to sell for $40.00/bu what needs to happen to get that price in terms of customer experience is the priority. p.s. No, we are not able to get that much but there are farms in the area that do. We still wholesale a large percentage of the crop. Art Kelly Kelly Orchards Acton, Maine On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 2:13 PM, David Doud david_d...@me.com wrote: not an expert here, but it's my understanding in a spindle system the space between trees in the row is determined by what renewal pruning will fill and that much over 3' between trees in most situations would require permanent woody architecture to keep the space filled, which brings about several horticultural challenges - then the space between rows versus the height of the trees becomes a calculation to maximize yield - in a you-pick situation I'd suggest that maximum yield would be a secondary consideration to logistics - that wider rows and shorter trees for convenience and safety would override a certain percentage of maximum theoretical yield - I shudder to consider what strategies the public might employ to harvest that beautiful apple just out of their reach... if my understanding is incorrect, feel free to challenge - David On Jul 3, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Matt Pellerin wrote: Thanks for the responses. I was thinking of going to a 10 x 3 orchard growing Honeycrisp on M26 and Macoun on Bud 9. I think the 10 x 3 spacing puts the tree height at 8.5' which will work pretty well for pick-your-own. On this kind of spacing, will I still be within the Tall Spindle category? Will I have to make adjustments in my pruning methodology or will the typical tall spindle pruning and training recommendations work? Thanks, Matt On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 8:26 AM, kuffelcr...@kuffelcreek.com wrote: I concur with Dennis' evaluation of Dr. Robinson's videos; this system has forced even stubborn high-chill varieties to transition from vegetative mode to fruiting mode in hot climates and the tropics. I wanted to address Matthew's desire to keep the trees around 6' tall. This sounds like it would take a very dwarfing rootstock like M27; do any of our growers have experience training these as tall spindle? Kevin Hauser Kuffel Creek Apple Nursery Riverside, California Nakifuma, Uganda On Thu, 3 Jul 2014 00:23:19 -0500, dmnor...@royaloakfarmorchard.com wrote: matthew, We have been growing tall spindle in northern Illinois in a pick-your-own orchard for around 5 or 6 years now. The system has been improving over the years and currently the newer spacing being recommended by Dr. Terence Robinson from Cornell is around 12' x 3'. I highly recommend watching the videos at YouTube he did at the Winter Apple School in Henderson County, NC found at http://youtu.be/gJF4wLgXnK8 After viewing this video and others on the BRCC TV - The Educational Channel on YouTube covering the Tall Spindle System, we will be making the recommended changes to our current system of 14' x 4'. Hope this helps. Dennis Norton IPM Specialist/Certified Nurseryman Royal Oak Farm Orchard 15908 Hebron Rd. Harvard, IL 60033-9357 Office (815) 648-4467 Mobile (815) 228-2174 Fax (609) 228-2174 http://www.royaloakfarmorchard.com http://www.royaloakfarmorchard.blogspot.com - Original Message - From: Matt Pellerin To: apple-crop@virtualorchard.net Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2014 2:55 PM Subject: [apple-crop] Narrow Tall Spindle Layout I am a grower in central Maine that operates a pick-your-own orchard. I will be planting a tall spindle orchard next year. I would like to plant the rows as narrow as possible in combination with shorter trees so the customers can reach more of the fruit. My orchard tractor is 54 wide. How narrow can I plant my tall spindle orchard with this equipment? Also, what would be the appropriate tree height at the narrow row spacing? Thanks, -- Matthew Pellerin Agricultural Manager Treworgy Family Orchards 3876 Union St Levant, ME 04456 www.treworgyorchards.com 207-884-8354 -- ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop -- Matthew Pellerin Agricultural Manager Treworgy Family Orchards 3876
Re: [apple-crop] Narrow Tall Spindle Layout
This photo is at a PYO in Massachusetts not far from Belchertown that has nice-sized trees for pedestrian picking, with the highest apples within kid-sitting-on-the-shoulder's reach. Marty is 5'2 and so you can see the scale. The clerk didn't know the rootstock, but my guess is something smaller than Bud. 9 or M9. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/100097230/PYO%20Mass.JPG Kevin Hauser Kuffel Creek Apple Nursery Riverside, California Nakifuma, Uganda On Fri, 4 Jul 2014 11:29:24 -0400, Arthur Kelly kellyorcha...@gmail.com wrote: Maximum yield isn't necessarily the same thing as maximum sales. In my opinion, the selling is more important than anything else. Yes, good yields of good quality fruit is important, but being good at selling and how much you are able to get for what you have to sell trumps everything else. If you are able to sell for $40.00/bu what needs to happen to get that price in terms of customer experience is the priority. p.s. No, we are not able to get that much but there are farms in the area that do. We still wholesale a large percentage of the crop. Art Kelly Kelly Orchards Acton, Maine On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 2:13 PM, David Doud david_d...@me.com wrote: not an expert here, but it's my understanding in a spindle system the space between trees in the row is determined by what renewal pruning will fill and that much over 3' between trees in most situations would require permanent woody architecture to keep the space filled, which brings about several horticultural challenges - then the space between rows versus the height of the trees becomes a calculation to maximize yield - in a you-pick situation I'd suggest that maximum yield would be a secondary consideration to logistics - that wider rows and shorter trees for convenience and safety would override a certain percentage of maximum theoretical yield - I shudder to consider what strategies the public might employ to harvest that beautiful apple just out of their reach... if my understanding is incorrect, feel free to challenge - David On Jul 3, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Matt Pellerin wrote: Thanks for the responses. I was thinking of going to a 10 x 3 orchard growing Honeycrisp on M26 and Macoun on Bud 9. I think the 10 x 3 spacing puts the tree height at 8.5' which will work pretty well for pick-your-own. On this kind of spacing, will I still be within the Tall Spindle category? Will I have to make adjustments in my pruning methodology or will the typical tall spindle pruning and training recommendations work? Thanks, Matt On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 8:26 AM, kuffelcr...@kuffelcreek.com wrote: I concur with Dennis' evaluation of Dr. Robinson's videos; this system has forced even stubborn high-chill varieties to transition from vegetative mode to fruiting mode in hot climates and the tropics. I wanted to address Matthew's desire to keep the trees around 6' tall. This sounds like it would take a very dwarfing rootstock like M27; do any of our growers have experience training these as tall spindle? Kevin Hauser Kuffel Creek Apple Nursery Riverside, California Nakifuma, Uganda On Thu, 3 Jul 2014 00:23:19 -0500, dmnor...@royaloakfarmorchard.com wrote: matthew, We have been growing tall spindle in northern Illinois in a pick-your-own orchard for around 5 or 6 years now. The system has been improving over the years and currently the newer spacing being recommended by Dr. Terence Robinson from Cornell is around 12' x 3'. I highly recommend watching the videos at YouTube he did at the Winter Apple School in Henderson County, NC found at http://youtu.be/gJF4wLgXnK8 After viewing this video and others on the BRCC TV - The Educational Channel on YouTube covering the Tall Spindle System, we will be making the recommended changes to our current system of 14' x 4'. Hope this helps. Dennis Norton IPM Specialist/Certified Nurseryman Royal Oak Farm Orchard 15908 Hebron Rd. Harvard, IL 60033-9357 Office (815) 648-4467 Mobile (815) 228-2174 Fax (609) 228-2174 http://www.royaloakfarmorchard.com http://www.royaloakfarmorchard.blogspot.com - Original Message - From: Matt Pellerin To: apple-crop@virtualorchard.net Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2014 2:55 PM Subject: [apple-crop] Narrow Tall Spindle Layout I am a grower in central Maine that operates a pick-your-own orchard. I will be planting a tall spindle orchard next year. I would like to plant the rows as narrow as possible in combination with shorter trees so the customers can reach more of the fruit. My orchard tractor is 54 wide. How narrow can I plant my tall spindle orchard with this equipment? Also, what would be the appropriate tree height at the narrow row spacing? Thanks, -- Matthew Pellerin Agricultural Manager Treworgy Family Orchards 3876 Union St
Re: [apple-crop] Narrow Tall Spindle Layout
Matthew, To approach this strictly from a mathematical perspective: The rule of thumb is for row width to be 1.3 times the tree height for north/south oriented rows and 1.5 times the tree height for east/west oriented rows for sunlight penetration. If we start with “short” spindle trees being 6 feet (1.8 meters) tall for easy picking by the average customer and multiply by 1.3 we get 7.8 feet (2.37 meters), which translates into 93.6 inches for row spacing. If you allow 60 inches (1.5 meters) for your 54 inch tractor that leaves you with 33 inches for both trees to grow, or about 16 inches (40 Centimeters) for each tree to grow out from the trunk. This could bring you above 2000 trees/acre depending on scion vigor, rootstock vigor, and other factors that determine your in-row spacing. That takes care of the math. I don’t think I would plant them that close. You can add in more room for your tractor operator to wobble out of the row when looking behind if you wish. I might be concerned about spray burn and fruit russeting given the very close proximity of sprayer nozzles and fruit. You may also wish to observe if your spray coverage is adequate that close to the machine. Given the nozzle spacing on my sprayer the spray pattern does not offer complete coverage closer than a foot. Somebody must have experimented with rows very close. I am sure they will have input. Ernest Rollins Rollins Orchards 262 Dexter Rd Garland, Me 207-924-3504 www.rollinsorchards.com A Family Farm Since 1821 From: apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net [mailto:apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net] On Behalf Of Matt Pellerin Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2014 3:56 PM To: apple-crop@virtualorchard.net Subject: [apple-crop] Narrow Tall Spindle Layout I am a grower in central Maine that operates a pick-your-own orchard. I will be planting a tall spindle orchard next year. I would like to plant the rows as narrow as possible in combination with shorter trees so the customers can reach more of the fruit. My orchard tractor is 54 wide. How narrow can I plant my tall spindle orchard with this equipment? Also, what would be the appropriate tree height at the narrow row spacing? Thanks, -- Matthew Pellerin Agricultural Manager Treworgy Family Orchards 3876 Union St Levant, ME 04456 www.treworgyorchards.com 207-884-8354 _ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4592 / Virus Database: 3986/7761 - Release Date: 06/28/14 ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
Re: [apple-crop] Narrow Tall Spindle Layout
I concur with Dennis' evaluation of Dr. Robinson's videos; this system has forced even stubborn high-chill varieties to transition from vegetative mode to fruiting mode in hot climates and the tropics. I wanted to address Matthew's desire to keep the trees around 6' tall. This sounds like it would take a very dwarfing rootstock like M27; do any of our growers have experience training these as tall spindle? Kevin Hauser Kuffel Creek Apple Nursery Riverside, California Nakifuma, Uganda On Thu, 3 Jul 2014 00:23:19 -0500, dmnor...@royaloakfarmorchard.com wrote: matthew, We have been growing tall spindle in northern Illinois in a pick-your-own orchard for around 5 or 6 years now. The system has been improving over the years and currently the newer spacing being recommended by Dr. Terence Robinson from Cornell is around 12' x 3'. I highly recommend watching the videos at YouTube he did at the Winter Apple School in Henderson County, NC found at http://youtu.be/gJF4wLgXnK8 After viewing this video and others on the BRCC TV - The Educational Channel on YouTube covering the Tall Spindle System, we will be making the recommended changes to our current system of 14' x 4'. Hope this helps. Dennis Norton IPM Specialist/Certified Nurseryman Royal Oak Farm Orchard 15908 Hebron Rd. Harvard, IL 60033-9357 Office (815) 648-4467 Mobile (815) 228-2174 Fax (609) 228-2174 http://www.royaloakfarmorchard.com http://www.royaloakfarmorchard.blogspot.com - Original Message - From: Matt Pellerin To: apple-crop@virtualorchard.net Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2014 2:55 PM Subject: [apple-crop] Narrow Tall Spindle Layout I am a grower in central Maine that operates a pick-your-own orchard. I will be planting a tall spindle orchard next year. I would like to plant the rows as narrow as possible in combination with shorter trees so the customers can reach more of the fruit. My orchard tractor is 54 wide. How narrow can I plant my tall spindle orchard with this equipment? Also, what would be the appropriate tree height at the narrow row spacing? Thanks, -- Matthew Pellerin Agricultural Manager Treworgy Family Orchards 3876 Union St Levant, ME 04456 www.treworgyorchards.com 207-884-8354 -- ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
[apple-crop] Narrow Tall Spindle Layout
I am a grower in central Maine that operates a pick-your-own orchard. I will be planting a tall spindle orchard next year. I would like to plant the rows as narrow as possible in combination with shorter trees so the customers can reach more of the fruit. My orchard tractor is 54 wide. How narrow can I plant my tall spindle orchard with this equipment? Also, what would be the appropriate tree height at the narrow row spacing? Thanks, -- Matthew Pellerin Agricultural Manager Treworgy Family Orchards 3876 Union St Levant, ME 04456 www.treworgyorchards.com 207-884-8354 ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
Re: [apple-crop] Narrow Tall Spindle Layout
I have only two years experience with this, but I'll give my opinion. A lot depends on your rootstock. A dwarf rootstock such as Bud 9 seems to do well at 11 ft. spacing on the rows. I have seen 9 ft. Bud 9 that hampered light penetration. I have Bud 9 trees planted 30 inches x 12 feet and I believe this is a good choice, but my tractor is 70 wide, would have gone to 11 ft if I had a smaller tractor. I assume your location gets cold, ( -30 ?) so a cold hardly rootstock would be good, say a G11 or Bud 9. Bud 9 can get to 10 feet, from what I have seen. On Wed, Jul 2, 2014 at 12:55 PM, Matt Pellerin m...@treworgyorchards.com wrote: I am a grower in central Maine that operates a pick-your-own orchard. I will be planting a tall spindle orchard next year. I would like to plant the rows as narrow as possible in combination with shorter trees so the customers can reach more of the fruit. My orchard tractor is 54 wide. How narrow can I plant my tall spindle orchard with this equipment? Also, what would be the appropriate tree height at the narrow row spacing? Thanks, -- Matthew Pellerin Agricultural Manager Treworgy Family Orchards 3876 Union St Levant, ME 04456 www.treworgyorchards.com 207-884-8354 ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
Re: [apple-crop] Narrow Tall Spindle Layout
matthew, We have been growing tall spindle in northern Illinois in a pick-your-own orchard for around 5 or 6 years now. The system has been improving over the years and currently the newer spacing being recommended by Dr. Terence Robinson from Cornell is around 12' x 3'. I highly recommend watching the videos at YouTube he did at the Winter Apple School in Henderson County, NC found at http://youtu.be/gJF4wLgXnK8 After viewing this video and others on the BRCC TV - The Educational Channel on YouTube covering the Tall Spindle System, we will be making the recommended changes to our current system of 14' x 4'. Hope this helps. Dennis Norton IPM Specialist/Certified Nurseryman Royal Oak Farm Orchard 15908 Hebron Rd. Harvard, IL 60033-9357 Office (815) 648-4467 Mobile (815) 228-2174 Fax (609) 228-2174 http://www.royaloakfarmorchard.com http://www.royaloakfarmorchard.blogspot.com - Original Message - From: Matt Pellerin To: apple-crop@virtualorchard.net Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2014 2:55 PM Subject: [apple-crop] Narrow Tall Spindle Layout I am a grower in central Maine that operates a pick-your-own orchard. I will be planting a tall spindle orchard next year. I would like to plant the rows as narrow as possible in combination with shorter trees so the customers can reach more of the fruit. My orchard tractor is 54 wide. How narrow can I plant my tall spindle orchard with this equipment? Also, what would be the appropriate tree height at the narrow row spacing? Thanks, -- Matthew Pellerin Agricultural Manager Treworgy Family Orchards 3876 Union St Levant, ME 04456 www.treworgyorchards.com 207-884-8354 -- ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
