Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
On Aug 13, 2012 3:17 AM, Kevin Chadwick ma1l1i...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: I've been wondering lately whether there is a good reason why even udev violates the one thing and do it well principle set forth by the co worker of the designer of C and Unix as it not only dynamically creates devices like mdev does but also hotplugging like hotplugd on OpenBSD. Hopefully there is a config option or you would need an alternative if you want static dev files and hotplugging. This is completely wrong. Udev does not create any device nudes. Tom
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 2:12 PM, Tom Gundersen t...@jklm.no wrote: On Aug 13, 2012 3:17 AM, Kevin Chadwick ma1l1i...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: I've been wondering lately whether there is a good reason why even udev violates the one thing and do it well principle set forth by the co worker of the designer of C and Unix as it not only dynamically creates devices like mdev does but also hotplugging like hotplugd on OpenBSD. Hopefully there is a config option or you would need an alternative if you want static dev files and hotplugging. This is completely wrong. Udev does not create any device nudes. Tom I'd hope not, there's under-age users of Linux to consider.
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
I've been wondering lately whether there is a good reason why even udev violates the one thing and do it well principle set forth by the co worker of the designer of C and Unix as it not only dynamically creates devices like mdev does but also hotplugging like hotplugd on OpenBSD. Hopefully there is a config option or you would need an alternative if you want static dev files and hotplugging. This is completely wrong. Udev does not create any device nudes. Seems this has changed and my source was out of date (2010 or 2011) or based on an older embedded kernel. More to find out but looks like I can easily pick and choose and test from mknod devtmpfs or udev/mdev and any delays are more manageable, brill. http://lwn.net/Articles/331818/ http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.kernel/830722 Thanks -- ___ 'Write programs that do one thing and do it well. Write programs to work together. Write programs to handle text streams, because that is a universal interface' (Doug McIlroy) ___
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 8:53 AM, Oon-Ee Ng ngoonee.t...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 2:12 PM, Tom Gundersen t...@jklm.no wrote: On Aug 13, 2012 3:17 AM, Kevin Chadwick ma1l1i...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: I've been wondering lately whether there is a good reason why even udev violates the one thing and do it well principle set forth by the co worker of the designer of C and Unix as it not only dynamically creates devices like mdev does but also hotplugging like hotplugd on OpenBSD. Hopefully there is a config option or you would need an alternative if you want static dev files and hotplugging. This is completely wrong. Udev does not create any device nudes. Tom I'd hope not, there's under-age users of Linux to consider. Lol. Damn phone. -t
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
On 08/13/2012 02:12 AM, Tom Gundersen wrote: On Aug 13, 2012 3:17 AM, Kevin Chadwick ma1l1i...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: I've been wondering lately whether there is a good reason why even udev violates the one thing and do it well principle set forth by the co worker of the designer of C and Unix as it not only dynamically creates devices like mdev does but also hotplugging like hotplugd on OpenBSD. Hopefully there is a config option or you would need an alternative if you want static dev files and hotplugging. This is completely wrong. Udev does not create any device nudes. Tom http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/utils/kernel/hotplug/udev/udev.html
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
On 08/13/2012 07:56 AM, Tom Gundersen wrote: On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 8:53 AM, Oon-Ee Ng ngoonee.t...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 2:12 PM, Tom Gundersen t...@jklm.no wrote: On Aug 13, 2012 3:17 AM, Kevin Chadwick ma1l1i...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: I've been wondering lately whether there is a good reason why even udev violates the one thing and do it well principle set forth by the co worker of the designer of C and Unix as it not only dynamically creates devices like mdev does but also hotplugging like hotplugd on OpenBSD. Hopefully there is a config option or you would need an alternative if you want static dev files and hotplugging. This is completely wrong. Udev does not create any device nudes. Tom I'd hope not, there's under-age users of Linux to consider. Lol. Damn phone. -t Yea right that's what you said the last time ;)
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
On Mon, 2012-08-13 at 08:59 -0400, Baho Utot wrote: On 08/13/2012 07:56 AM, Tom Gundersen wrote: On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 8:53 AM, Oon-Ee Ng ngoonee.t...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 2:12 PM, Tom Gundersen t...@jklm.no wrote: On Aug 13, 2012 3:17 AM, Kevin Chadwick ma1l1i...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: I've been wondering lately whether there is a good reason why even udev violates the one thing and do it well principle set forth by the co worker of the designer of C and Unix as it not only dynamically creates devices like mdev does but also hotplugging like hotplugd on OpenBSD. Hopefully there is a config option or you would need an alternative if you want static dev files and hotplugging. This is completely wrong. Udev does not create any device nudes. Tom I'd hope not, there's under-age users of Linux to consider. Lol. Damn phone. -t Yea right that's what you said the last time ;) I often unplug my phone, this can be very relaxing ;) and I don't use a mobile or TAD anymore.
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
On 11 August 2012 23:05, Baho Utot baho-u...@columbus.rr.com wrote: systemd is one source distributed package arch split the package into the multiples you see here. It is one source package, but it provides multiple small utilities. The coreutils are distributed as one source package that provides many small utilities, too. It doesn't run on my android device nor would it be needed or required. That doesn't mean it cannot be used as such. Lukas
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
I suspect upstream folks are living in an ivory tower. Nouveau, PA, systemd, GNOME3, GIMP etc. and regarding to GIMP somebody posted those links. It's worth to read it, since it's not about GIMP only, but about the communication between users and upstream. Forwarded Message To: Debian User You might enjoy this three-part thread... http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/test/2012-April/107586.html http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/test/2012-April/107603.html http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/test/2012-May/107697.html
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
On 12 Aug 2012 20:51, Ralf Mardorf ralf.mard...@alice-dsl.net wrote: I suspect upstream folks are living in an ivory tower. Nouveau, PA, systemd, GNOME3, GIMP etc. and regarding to GIMP somebody posted those links. It's worth to read it, since it's not about GIMP only, but about the communication between users and upstream. I suspect that some users have a huge sense of entitlement. Thoroughly undeserved. The users are not the most important component of an open source project, not even close. And any neutral party reading the gimp mailing list currently would identify the majority of the complaints to be unreasonable since they amount to this change sucks, change it back or we'll stop using this software.
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
On Sun, 12 Aug 2012 14:49:29 +0200 Ralf Mardorf ralf.mard...@alice-dsl.net wrote: I suspect upstream folks are living in an ivory tower. Nouveau, PA, systemd, GNOME3, GIMP etc. and regarding to GIMP somebody posted those links. It's worth to read it, since it's not about GIMP only, but about the communication between users and upstream. FWIW, Nouveau has gotten really good for low latency audio lately, I have a machine with a 8600gts running kde with kwin compositing and the kernel latency peaks at about 0.3ms with nouveau, as opposed to nvidia that manages just above 1ms. Of course my hd3000 on sandy bridge manages well under 0.1ms :) I also don't quite understand the PA discussion. I am not thrilled to have libpulse pulled in as a dependency, but on the other hand I have never seen it cause a problem in arch. Of course I have no intention of installing, nor of starting pulseaudio itself on my system... I was however sad to see old dependable friends like ifconfig and route being deprecated last year. Sad to see rc.conf more or less being deprecated too. Seeing the new man page made me see the writing on the wall though, and I have reduced it to an array listing the daemons I wanna start. Think I'm gonna feel like a complete noob next time I wanna install arch somewhere. IMO even if not logical, having a big part of the system config in rc.conf was convenient and reminded me of systems i ran many years ago... Oh well, let's hope the future is so bright that we gotta wear shades :) --- Joakim
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
On Sun, 12 Aug 2012 23:43:08 +0200 Joakim Hernberg j...@alchemy.lu wrote: Sad to see rc.conf more or less being deprecated too. Seeing the new man page made me see the writing on the wall though, and I have reduced it to an array listing the daemons I wanna start. Better retract this :) Don't know where I got that from, must have been from reading the mailing list. In any case I've taken the big step away from rc.conf by now. --- Joakim
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 11:43:08PM +0200, Joakim Hernberg wrote: I was however sad to see old dependable friends like ifconfig and route being deprecated last year. I had the same initial response to that. But spending an evening reading the ip manpage and doing a lot of 'exercises' using it changed that, now I can type ip commands as fluently as I could do before using ifconfig and route. The most important 'mental adjustmemt' I needed to make was getting used to the idea that a single interface can have many IP adresses. It's probably irrelevant to most users, but still just a fact. Sad to see rc.conf more or less being deprecated too. Yes, it was very convenient to have almost all essential configuration available in a single file. And it's sad that this is being abandoned not because that brings any benefit to the user but because 'upstream has decided'. Oh well, let's hope the future is so bright that we gotta wear shades :) Che serà serà... Ciao, -- FA A world of exhaustive, reliable metadata would be an utopia. It's also a pipe-dream, founded on self-delusion, nerd hubris and hysterically inflated market opportunities. (Cory Doctorow)
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 12:06 AM, Fons Adriaensen f...@linuxaudio.org wrote: Sad to see rc.conf more or less being deprecated too. Yes, it was very convenient to have almost all essential configuration available in a single file. And it's sad that this is being abandoned not because that brings any benefit to the user but because 'upstream has decided'. I do not agree with this. The change does give more features, makes things more reliable in the long run and reduces the maintenance burden. If we did not agree with upstream, we would not have to do this. -t
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 08/12/2012 02:43 PM, Joakim Hernberg wrote: I also don't quite understand the PA discussion. I am not thrilled to have libpulse pulled in as a dependency, but on the other hand I have never seen it cause a problem in arch. Of course I have no intention of installing, nor of starting pulseaudio itself on my system... - From what I've seen, libpulse doesn't cause problems (other than occupying space). I'm not thrilled about it either. But it seems possible to have it on the system without drawing in the rest of the pulseaudio toolchain that is clearly problematic. Great discussion, by the way. I don't fully understand it either, but given the problems I've had with pulseaudio, I appreciate what seems to be confirmation that I'm losing nothing by leaving it out. - -- David Benfell benf...@parts-unknown.org -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJQKCyXAAoJELT202JKF+xpoogP/1OhYbccpiagZd7Ja3ohZGvs 9rExCkq2/ioUW25ta/aihc7NwEPT1C1dbvMJuNEiO7b8QDBznt6Zq+YoSebSOaQb p1573c3SZlNXGHT3nazL7lXX4vLq2CO7ZHrmLZdI7zFDL4A5J/lVa28wmf7RkmsZ J8UNit+QIfXrePAAmMeSVl33F9YQhB2kzcbJnrH3onSBP8Vblgj2b2hZFMXimuSk FKkk2PFdkg6mdag3xdl5G06cm/tLkfuC5g8wzJceI4TSTrJTRIqsERGz0RZTTA/A SF7uj/NUFjGecCHRVX9r0kFxVZataNuDO61VSV1R0vmaYGvTSII88xaWWj5gI3Go 8kLm0whIa26CauPp2X+/ozqzgkIklOUb+9gIxdEuYiMPmL6L67knFH/O2AtA7Gcp e0FoG8G+CFPLLizkBAdaYA1Lh9WRQ70p64iPBlw04mdIdV7zhtC5jpWOyI+G2Ato 1hyrvprwVvJsJRwZYsx4XW8yzyQdQ3+5pckG5seHKO1WIB7tgoEM0bPKyJH8H6ql 2U15m1U7GkXCyyhBG6IvOGcmkoVgx5kUT2XGLZRiIc6/mDbTJS76NEFCnDLn1zgG jb5eujWPd16TThdEma3qDOnjTFtd1cbJ30ECUSqiDYe32qYvaP32uVpsbrkvF9kL N/R9RqO4jI0ofPatnOQU =8+pa -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 12:12:56AM +0200, Tom Gundersen wrote: On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 12:06 AM, Fons Adriaensen f...@linuxaudio.org wrote: Sad to see rc.conf more or less being deprecated too. Yes, it was very convenient to have almost all essential configuration available in a single file. And it's sad that this is being abandoned not because that brings any benefit to the user but because 'upstream has decided'. I do not agree with this. The change does give more features, makes things more reliable in the long run and reduces the maintenance burden. If we did not agree with upstream, we would not have to do this. And I don't blame you for it ... Ciao, -- FA A world of exhaustive, reliable metadata would be an utopia. It's also a pipe-dream, founded on self-delusion, nerd hubris and hysterically inflated market opportunities. (Cory Doctorow)
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
On Sun, 2012-08-12 at 15:22 -0700, David Benfell wrote: Great discussion It isn't. Engineering facts are unimportant. Just the benefit is important. Some people benefit from PA and for other people it's a PITA. The essence of it still is the question, why can't PA be optional? PA isn't needed. PA can be an advantage for some usages. PA can completely break some Linux.
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 12:33 AM, Ralf Mardorf ralf.mard...@alice-dsl.net wrote: The essence of it still is the question, why can't PA be optional? I don't do gnome stuff, so I don't know the answer to this (I think I do, but haven't taken the time to check). I'm sure the answer can be found if you were to do $ git clone git://git.gnome.org/gnome-settings-daemon $ git grep -i pulse HTH, Tom
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
On Mon, 13 Aug 2012 00:33:17 +0200 Ralf Mardorf ralf.mard...@alice-dsl.net wrote: The essence of it still is the question, why can't PA be optional? PA isn't needed. PA can be an advantage for some usages. PA can completely break some Linux. What specific problem do you have with programs being linked to libpulse, so far I haven't encountered any in Arch. OK, I also know from supporting software that some other distributions have a long standing tradition of trampling Jack under their feet and being more or less permanently useless for years already. One reason I'm very happy to be using Archlinux...! --- Joakim
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
On Mon, 2012-08-13 at 00:44 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote: On Sun, 2012-08-12 at 15:22 -0700, David Benfell wrote: On 08/12/2012 02:43 PM, Joakim Hernberg wrote: I also don't quite understand the PA discussion. I am not thrilled to have libpulse pulled in as a dependency, but on the other hand I have never seen it cause a problem in arch. Of course I have no intention of installing, nor of starting pulseaudio itself on my system... From what I've seen, libpulse doesn't cause problems (other than occupying space). I'm not thrilled about it either. But it seems possible to have it on the system without drawing in the rest of the pulseaudio toolchain that is clearly problematic. Great discussion, by the way. I don't fully understand it either, but given the problems I've had with pulseaudio, I appreciate what seems to be confirmation that I'm losing nothing by leaving it out. libpulse is ok :), I don't care about some bytes more or less. A desktop picture nowadays needs more RAM/ROM than a complete workstation needs 2 decades ago. The issue was/is/will be, that PA is a dependency, even if it's not needed. Ooops, but it can brake some usages. Apologize.
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
On Mon, 13 Aug 2012 04:14:07 +0530, Ralf Mardorf ralf.mard...@alice-dsl.net wrote: On Sun, 2012-08-12 at 15:22 -0700, David Benfell wrote: On 08/12/2012 02:43 PM, Joakim Hernberg wrote: I also don't quite understand the PA discussion. I am not thrilled to have libpulse pulled in as a dependency, but on the other hand I have never seen it cause a problem in arch. Of course I have no intention of installing, nor of starting pulseaudio itself on my system... From what I've seen, libpulse doesn't cause problems (other than occupying space). I'm not thrilled about it either. But it seems possible to have it on the system without drawing in the rest of the pulseaudio toolchain that is clearly problematic. Great discussion, by the way. I don't fully understand it either, but given the problems I've had with pulseaudio, I appreciate what seems to be confirmation that I'm losing nothing by leaving it out. libpulse is ok :), I don't care about some bytes more or less. A desktop picture nowadays needs more RAM/ROM than a complete workstation needs 2 decades ago. The issue was/is/will be, that PA is a dependency, even if it's not needed. Regards, Ralf OT: this is the first discussion of PA, systemd, etc., in my limited experience that didn't lead to ad hominem attacks, stays on topic, and actually provides useful information. great! -- phani.
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 5:12 PM, Tom Gundersen t...@jklm.no wrote: On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 12:06 AM, Fons Adriaensen f...@linuxaudio.org wrote: Sad to see rc.conf more or less being deprecated too. Yes, it was very convenient to have almost all essential configuration available in a single file. And it's sad that this is being abandoned not because that brings any benefit to the user but because 'upstream has decided'. I do not agree with this. The change does give more features, makes things more reliable in the long run and reduces the maintenance burden. If we did not agree with upstream, we would not have to do this. -t Tom: I agree with ya'll that it will be better in the long run for Arch in general. However I've had to back away from using systemd. There are simply too many changes going on for me to keep up with and currently I find it much easier to deal with the old style init scripts ( please don't take this a complaint as life and age have slowed some of the processes ). To All: That being said, I think it time for all to quit yer bitchin and decide to fish or cut bait. Right now both ways are supported and that gives everyone time to decide which way they want to go. Less noise about it all would give the devs more time to concentrate on making everything work right instead of either ignoring these debates or tearing their hair out trying to impart some knowledge and understanding to everyone. These are the battles that have spawned many a new linux distro and there's always LFS. It's been said before and I'll reiterate it, If you don't like it work to fix it. Myra -- Life's fun when your sick and psychotic!
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
On Sun, 2012-08-12 at 15:22 -0700, David Benfell wrote: On 08/12/2012 02:43 PM, Joakim Hernberg wrote: I also don't quite understand the PA discussion. I am not thrilled to have libpulse pulled in as a dependency, but on the other hand I have never seen it cause a problem in arch. Of course I have no intention of installing, nor of starting pulseaudio itself on my system... From what I've seen, libpulse doesn't cause problems (other than occupying space). I'm not thrilled about it either. But it seems possible to have it on the system without drawing in the rest of the pulseaudio toolchain that is clearly problematic. Great discussion, by the way. I don't fully understand it either, but given the problems I've had with pulseaudio, I appreciate what seems to be confirmation that I'm losing nothing by leaving it out. libpulse is ok :), I don't care about some bytes more or less. A desktop picture nowadays needs more RAM/ROM than a complete workstation needs 2 decades ago. The issue was/is/will be, that PA is a dependency, even if it's not needed. Regards, Ralf
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
On Mon, 2012-08-13 at 00:36 +0200, Tom Gundersen wrote: On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 12:33 AM, Ralf Mardorf ralf.mard...@alice-dsl.net wrote: The essence of it still is the question, why can't PA be optional? I don't do gnome stuff, so I don't know the answer to this (I think I do, but haven't taken the time to check). I'm sure the answer can be found if you were to do $ git clone git://git.gnome.org/gnome-settings-daemon $ git grep -i pulse HTH, Tom Fair play, I don't need GDM and for Arch Linux on my computer only GDM depends indirectly to pulaseaudio. I simply fear that PA and other software that could brake some usages, will spread, without any need. There will alway be a way (at least with help from the community) to get rid of such annoying software. But IMO the simplest way is to stop making odd dependencies. Regards, Ralf
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
On Mon, 2012-08-13 at 00:41 +0200, Joakim Hernberg wrote: On Mon, 13 Aug 2012 00:33:17 +0200 Ralf Mardorf ralf.mard...@alice-dsl.net wrote: The essence of it still is the question, why can't PA be optional? PA isn't needed. PA can be an advantage for some usages. PA can completely break some Linux. What specific problem do you have with programs being linked to libpulse, so far I haven't encountered any in Arch. A dependency to libpulse is ok, a dependency to pulseaudio is the showstopper. Until now even this isn't an issue, since AFAIK only GNOME for Arch insists on pulseaudio. But this might change. People for good reasons chose some distro. However, IMO it's important to see which way the wind is blowing. I much to often read one name (Poe...), when simply reading just for entertainment some Linux ezines. Paranoia ;), but for god reasons ;).
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
On Mon, 13 Aug 2012 01:05:25 +0200 Ralf Mardorf ralf.mard...@alice-dsl.net wrote: Until now even this isn't an issue, since AFAIK only GNOME for Arch insists on pulseaudio. But this might change. People for good reasons chose some distro. I think if Gnome has a hard dependency on PA, there isn't anything Arch can do about it... Patching upstream sources isn't the Archway... Otherwise it ought to be an optdepend, but making it optional it it's needed by a package would probably be a bad idea... Seems to me that either you need to stop using Gnome, or write the needed patches to make PA optional. I guess a 3:rd option would be to fix what is broken in PA...:) Let's hope Arch stays the way it was, where more or less everything is optional and you can design your own system exactly as you want it! --- Joakim
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
On Mon, 2012-08-13 at 01:17 +0200, Joakim Hernberg wrote: On Mon, 13 Aug 2012 01:05:25 +0200 Ralf Mardorf ralf.mard...@alice-dsl.net wrote: Until now even this isn't an issue, since AFAIK only GNOME for Arch insists on pulseaudio. But this might change. People for good reasons chose some distro. I think if Gnome has a hard dependency on PA, there isn't anything Arch can do about it... Patching upstream sources isn't the Archway... Otherwise it ought to be an optdepend, but making it optional it it's needed by a package would probably be a bad idea... Seems to me that either you need to stop using Gnome, or write the needed patches to make PA optional. I guess a 3:rd option would be to fix what is broken in PA...:) Let's hope Arch stays the way it was, where more or less everything is optional and you can design your own system exactly as you want it! When GNOME2 switched to 3 I stopped using GNOME. Hats off! Somebody maintained https://aur.archlinux.org/packages.php?ID=48718 for a long time! Btw. I suspect that I benefit of systemd side effects. Could it be that now, each time a new kernel or kernel-rt is installed, the vbox modules are build, regarding to a side effect of systemd? Or has this nothing to do with systemd? I wish to be allowed to be a dummy using Linux. If I would like to be an expert, I could chose any other obscure OS. Linux shouldn't become non-transparent, even not for noobs. At the moment pulseaudio seems no issue for any distro, as long as we avoid to use GNOME or GDM. For systemd it might be different, perhaps there aren't issues, but without systemd there aren't issues for me. So, if I read systemd is from Mr. X, as pulseaudio is too, I'm horrified. Getting rid of PA is easy, once you know what to do, but it also was easy to get PA (like a disease) without a warning, just by upgrading GNOME for one and the other distro. It's no fun, when that happens at the most bad possible moment. I don't want my Linux PC become as faulty as my iThingy.
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
Then you should really ask yourself why they take that position. AFAICS, there is no solid technical argument for it. I believe they just don't think about anything other than the main and so do the least possible rather than taking the extra steps (or have too much to think about or on the todo list already). Take firefox it has a compilation option of no dbus but if dbus fails it refuses to even start (dbus being a possible route to escape chroot). I had sorted that by just closing off the dbus after start-up but since upgrading now get a general DBUS error message. It was said the linux user space package dependency issue was getting better but I think it's relapsed and perhaps far worse or more lazy in some cases. Now udev has been merged with systemd, and one can wonder why. According to the authors, it is 'because they share some common code'. A rather weak argument, that would be true for almost any two subsystems you can imagine. This is a misrepresentation. Udev and systemd were merged I think mainly because they belong together, but also because they had cyclic build dependencies as they are very tightly integrated. It's no misrepresantation, but an almost literal quote from one of the authors. Yes, systemd and udev are supposed to work closely together, that makes perfect sense. The solution preferred by grown-up programmers in such cases is to define stable interfaces on both sides allowing them to do that, not to merge them. I've been wondering lately whether there is a good reason why even udev violates the one thing and do it well principle set forth by the co worker of the designer of C and Unix as it not only dynamically creates devices like mdev does but also hotplugging like hotplugd on OpenBSD. Hopefully there is a config option or you would need an alternative if you want static dev files and hotplugging. -- ___ 'Write programs that do one thing and do it well. Write programs to work together. Write programs to handle text streams, because that is a universal interface' (Doug McIlroy) ___
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
I would be surprised if a systemd-based system requires more resources than a sysvinit-based one, but that is of course something one would have to measure for each particular use-case. How about an init script that creates proc and sys, two devices via mknod and runs one server or a shell such as in any embedded basic example. My favourite init is still OpenBSDs single /etc/rc script that utilises the minimum number of easily followed, edited (though discouraged) and understood inclusions to make administration practical. There are lots of systemd-based embedded systems cropping up (the embedded world seems more excited about sysntemd than the desktop world). The aim of systemd is to work on anything from embedded, via desktop to servers. You are actually talking about a fraction of embedded, which is the mobile phone world. In truly embedded cheap instant on devices, udev/mdev (dynamic dev) even can be seen as something that slows down the boot and makes it less reliable than using mknod in a short init script. To reiterate an example some people hope linux will run on a cheap toaster. -- ___ 'Write programs that do one thing and do it well. Write programs to work together. Write programs to handle text streams, because that is a universal interface' (Doug McIlroy) ___
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
On 11/08/12 02:14, Ralf Mardorf wrote: On Sat, 11 Aug 2012 02:03:51 +0200, Leonid Isaev lis...@umail.iu.edu wrote: If you disagree file a bugreport. Any hints where to file a bug report are welcome. Seemingly nobody is interested, as already explained by Heiko. But using dummy packages is just cheating. So I should do audio productions with a Linux, that is unable to use my audio card? How should I do this? Regards, Ralf Have you ever tried to report your problems with PA and your soundcard to upstream? -- Jelle van der Waa signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
On Sat, 2012-08-11 at 13:05 +0800, Oon-Ee Ng wrote: On 11 Aug 2012 08:14, Ralf Mardorf ralf.mard...@alice-dsl.net wrote: But using dummy packages is just cheating. So I should do audio productions with a Linux, that is unable to use my audio card? How should I do this? Regards, Ralf By installing a distro that doesn't force you to use pulseaudio. Oh wait, that's Arch. And whats bad with building a dummy package, if I wish to use packages with pulseaudio dependencies? On Sat, 2012-08-11 at 09:45 +0200, Jelle van der Waa wrote: Have you ever tried to report your problems with PA and your soundcard to upstream? Have you ever really read what people wrote and why we are against it? Regards, Ralf
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
On 11 Aug 2012 18:53, Ralf Mardorf ralf.mard...@alice-dsl.net wrote: On Sat, 2012-08-11 at 09:45 +0200, Jelle van der Waa wrote: Have you ever tried to report your problems with PA and your soundcard to upstream? Have you ever really read what people wrote and why we are against it? Regards, Ralf And you're dissatisfied that the Envy chipset isn't supported, even though the project's stated goal is desktop users (translation stereo only). You may disagree with that goal and their definition, but the traditional solution to that is to get coding. Complaining doesn't change anyone's minds, especially when you use hyperbole (most users etc)
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
Am Sat, 11 Aug 2012 09:45:34 +0200 schrieb Jelle van der Waa je...@vdwaa.nl: Have you ever tried to report your problems with PA and your soundcard to upstream? How many times does it have to be said, that there are bug reports filed to upstream which have been ignored by upstream resp. which have been closed as fixed by first blaming ALSA for the PA problems, even if ALSA supports those cards perfectly out-of-the-box since years, then writing an obscure ALSA configuration which cripples those cards to simple stereo cards and now, after many discussions like this one, they suddenly say that PA is only meant for desktop purposes and not for professional purposes? How often does this have to be mentioned? Heiko
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
On Sat, 2012-08-11 at 19:14 +0800, Oon-Ee Ng wrote: On 11 Aug 2012 18:53, Ralf Mardorf ralf.mard...@alice-dsl.net wrote: On Sat, 2012-08-11 at 09:45 +0200, Jelle van der Waa wrote: Have you ever tried to report your problems with PA and your soundcard to upstream? Have you ever really read what people wrote and why we are against it? Regards, Ralf And you're dissatisfied that the Envy chipset isn't supported, even though the project's stated goal is desktop users (translation stereo only). Personally I don't care for the Envy24 chip, since my audio card for sure has a much better hardware mixer. It's just that Envy24 cards are widespread, since those are cheap and they usually are better than onboard devices and many are stereo only. My Envy24 cards are for MIDI only. On non-audio user mailing lists there are often requests regarding to no sound. In the end most of the times it's pulseaudio that breaks audio for desktop users. Btw. do consumer nowadays not usually need 5.1 instead of stereo? You may disagree with that goal and their definition, but the traditional solution to that is to get coding. Today still most coders are interested that they don't break something. The coder we are talking about claims that the ALSA drivers are borked and similar strange things, when users report issues. IMO it's the task of this coder to rewrite the drivers, when those won't work with his software, since the drivers do work without his software. Complaining doesn't change anyone's minds, especially when you use hyperbole (most users etc) So most computer users do not use other operating systems? There are several reasons for this, pulseaudio isn't the only reason, but it has got much weight. To shut up won't change the situation. Btw. I'm not complaining only, I fix all my Linux installs and I help other people to fix their installs. But when I say using a dummy package will solve issues, than it's also not ok. Why don't ship distros with dummy packages for pulseaudio? I never noticed that a dummy package did break something, but even if it should break something, at least there are more advantages for those who can't use pulseaudio, due to their hardware. Today users have the choice to use DEs that don't need pulseaudio, but if we would be quiet, perhaps one DE after the other would make pulseaudio a dependency. Noise is part of how communities work. Silence would cause stagnation. Words about most people of cause belong to my broken English, if you like we could continue in German. I already said, that marginalized groups are important. However, I'll read what ever you'll write + I'll reflect deeply about your words, but I guess I've nothing to add to this topic at the moment myself. Regards, Ralf
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 01:35:10PM +0200, Heiko Baums wrote: How many times does it have to be said, that there are bug reports filed to upstream which have been ignored by upstream resp. which have been closed as fixed by first blaming ALSA for the PA problems, even if ALSA supports those cards perfectly out-of-the-box since years, then writing an obscure ALSA configuration which cripples those cards to simple stereo cards and now, after many discussions like this one, they suddenly say that PA is only meant for desktop purposes and not for professional purposes? All correct, and we'd better be happy about that. The problem is *not* that PA doesn't support multichannel cards - it would still be completely useless for any serious audio work and we would still have to disable/bypass/remove it even if it would support PRO hardware. The problem is that it becomes more and more difficult to install a system without all sorts of (for me and others) useless components such as PA. The reason is lots of hard dependencies that should be optional extensions instead. When L.P. claims e.g. that Gnome wants 'usability' and 'accessibility', therefore it needs and audio stack and since the best one for desktop use is PA (no discussion) it pulls in PA, that does make sense. But when it becomes impossible (using binary packages) to install Gnome without PA (while accepting the consequences) that just amounts to *very bad design*. Because technically there is *no reason* why things should be that way. If Gnome doesn't find the PA components it needs for certain non-essential funcions, it should just go on without them. The same goes for consolekit, polkit and whatever other kids the family has grown meanwhile. They do not provide essential functionality, rather they interfere with the normal way to contoll access etc., so they must remain optional. Now udev has been merged with systemd, and one can wonder why. According to the authors, it is 'because they share some common code'. A rather weak argument, that would be true for almost any two subsystems you can imagine. Udev is perfectly usable and useful on its own, it should never be merged with something else that should remain optional. But maybe that's what behind it - in the long term systemd is supposed not be optional. So what will be merged in next ? The kits ? Dbus ? Filesystems ? Networking ? It will end up to be one giant 'system' blob, take it or leave it, as we know from other platforms, with no choice at all for the user. L.P.'s reply to concerns like this (if systematically interrupting a speaker during his presentation can be called 'replying') is 'what are you whining about, it's all free, it's all open, submit a patch'. As if something like systematic bad design and creation of dependencies could be mended with a patch. Ciao, -- FA A world of exhaustive, reliable metadata would be an utopia. It's also a pipe-dream, founded on self-delusion, nerd hubris and hysterically inflated market opportunities. (Cory Doctorow)
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 2:48 PM, Fons Adriaensen f...@linuxaudio.org wrote: The problem is that it becomes more and more difficult to install a system without all sorts of (for me and others) useless components such as PA. The reason is lots of hard dependencies that should be optional extensions instead. When L.P. claims e.g. that Gnome wants 'usability' and 'accessibility', therefore it needs and audio stack and since the best one for desktop use is PA (no discussion) it pulls in PA, that does make sense. But when it becomes impossible (using binary packages) to install Gnome without PA (while accepting the consequences) that just amounts to *very bad design*. Because technically there is *no reason* why things should be that way. If Gnome doesn't find the PA components it needs for certain non-essential funcions, it should just go on without them. The same goes for consolekit, polkit and whatever other kids the family has grown meanwhile. They do not provide essential functionality, rather they interfere with the normal way to contoll access etc., so they must remain optional. For better or worse, the reality is that there are hard dependencies on things you don't like. It seems that upstream is unwilling to change that. Rather than just complain about it (which will not change anything), why don't you try to find out what upstream would be willing to do to serve your usecase? I know for instance that pulseaudio should be able to disable itself if it finds jackd running (as PA acknowledges that it does not serve the same usecases as jack). Maybe that is not exactly what you need, but perhaps you could request some similar functionality. If you do it in a nice and constructive way based on technical arguments, I'm sure it would be merged. Now udev has been merged with systemd, and one can wonder why. According to the authors, it is 'because they share some common code'. A rather weak argument, that would be true for almost any two subsystems you can imagine. This is a misrepresentation. Udev and systemd were merged I think mainly because they belong together, but also because they had cyclic build dependencies as they are very tightly integrated. It is not the case that systemd swallows anything it shares code with, in fact some stuff is being pushed into util-linux away from systemd. Udev is perfectly usable and useful on its own, it should never be merged with something else that should remain optional. But maybe that's what behind it - in the long term systemd is supposed not be optional. So what will be merged in next ? The kits ? Dbus ? Filesystems ? Networking ? It will end up to be one giant 'system' blob, take it or leave it, as we know from other platforms, with no choice at all for the user. I think there is no interest (upstream) in trying to make systemd optional forever, so this is a concern you are probably right about. However, the suggestions of what might be merged show that you are either joking or don't know these projects well. At some point parts of dbus will move into the kernel (so that is something to troll about I guess). -t
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
On Sat, 2012-08-11 at 15:30 +0200, Tom Gundersen wrote: I know for instance that pulseaudio should be able to disable itself if it finds jackd running No sarcasm, I seriously want to know about this. I only know that this is possible with jackdbus. Can you provide a link or do you mean jackdbus too? Regards, Ralf
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
On 08/11/2012 09:30 AM, Tom Gundersen wrote: [putolin] I think there is no interest (upstream) in trying to make systemd optional forever, so this is a concern you are probably right about. However, the suggestions of what might be merged show that you are either joking or don't know these projects well. At some point parts of dbus will move into the kernel (so that is something to troll about I guess). -t One thing that the folks/upstream that are merging all these things together is missing is that the future of user computer is moving to phones and ipad type devices. PC will still be around but the consumer has spoken and it looks like he/she is moving to these devices. I don't condemn them for doing so as they want something that works. Turn it on and get what they want done, PCs don't do this. How are/would these giant concoctions going to play here as they don't have the storage, memory, or cpu to handle this. The direction should be going in the tool kit style as in here's the kernel and you can bolt on all of these independent things. Something like android?
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
On Sat, 11 Aug 2012 15:30:09 +0200 Tom Gundersen t...@jklm.no wrote: This is a misrepresentation. Udev and systemd were merged I think mainly because they belong together, but also because they had cyclic build dependencies as they are very tightly integrated. It is not the case that systemd swallows anything it shares code with, in fact some stuff is being pushed into util-linux away from systemd. I keep seeing this quote on the net, is it not accurate? Sievers explained that it will still be possible to install udev independently of systemd. He added that this option will be supported in the long term because separate builds are required to ensure that initrds (initial ramdisks), which don't include systemd, work correctly. Distributions that don't use systemd can continue to build udev as before, but will have to use the systemd sources. --- Joakim
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
On Sat, 11 Aug 2012 09:59:54 -0400 Baho Utot baho-u...@columbus.rr.com wrote: On 08/11/2012 09:30 AM, Tom Gundersen wrote: [putolin] I think there is no interest (upstream) in trying to make systemd optional forever, so this is a concern you are probably right about. However, the suggestions of what might be merged show that you are either joking or don't know these projects well. At some point parts of dbus will move into the kernel (so that is something to troll about I guess). -t One thing that the folks/upstream that are merging all these things together is missing is that the future of user computer is moving to phones and ipad type devices. PC will still be around but the consumer has spoken and it looks like he/she is moving to these devices. I don't condemn them for doing so as they want something that works. Turn it on and get what they want done, PCs don't do this. Smartphones, tablets and i* devices are toys. Have you ever tried to compile Android/openWebOS? Or openwrt for a router? Or even ArchlinuxARM? They is not nearly as flexible as PCs. Sure, if all you need from a computer is a means for posting crap on facebook, then consumers are right. Just because these mobile/embedded devices are hyped doesn't mean they own the future. Besides, systemd, PA, dbus are quite natural for embedded devices. For instance, Palm has been using PA in their devices since first versions, and quite successfully. How are/would these giant concoctions going to play here as they don't have the storage, memory, or cpu to handle this. The direction should be going in the tool kit style as in here's the kernel and you can bolt on all of these independent things. Something like android? Mobile phones like samsung galaxies have dual core Cortex A10 (?) and LG Tmobile GX (at least in the US) runs on quadcore Nvidia tegra. That's more processing power than my previous laptop. -- Leonid Isaev GnuPG key: 0x164B5A6D Fingerprint: C0DF 20D0 C075 C3F1 E1BE 775A A7AE F6CB 164B 5A6D signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 3:59 PM, Baho Utot baho-u...@columbus.rr.com wrote: One thing that the folks/upstream that are merging all these things together is missing is that the future of user computer is moving to phones and ipad type devices. PC will still be around but the consumer has spoken and it looks like he/she is moving to these devices. I don't condemn them for doing so as they want something that works. Turn it on and get what they want done, PCs don't do this. How are/would these giant concoctions going to play here as they don't have the storage, memory, or cpu to handle this. The direction should be going in the tool kit style as in here's the kernel and you can bolt on all of these independent things. Something like android? I would be surprised if a systemd-based system requires more resources than a sysvinit-based one, but that is of course something one would have to measure for each particular use-case. There are lots of systemd-based embedded systems cropping up (the embedded world seems more excited about sysntemd than the desktop world). The aim of systemd is to work on anything from embedded, via desktop to servers. -t
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
On 08/11/2012 11:51 AM, Joakim Hernberg wrote: On Sat, 11 Aug 2012 15:30:09 +0200 Tom Gundersen t...@jklm.no wrote: This is a misrepresentation. Udev and systemd were merged I think mainly because they belong together, but also because they had cyclic build dependencies as they are very tightly integrated. It is not the case that systemd swallows anything it shares code with, in fact some stuff is being pushed into util-linux away from systemd. I keep seeing this quote on the net, is it not accurate? Sievers explained that it will still be possible to install udev independently of systemd. He added that this option will be supported in the long term because separate builds are required to ensure that initrds (initial ramdisks), which don't include systemd, work correctly. Distributions that don't use systemd can continue to build udev as before, but will have to use the systemd sources. --- Joakim That is not entirely true. Have a look at LFS. Bruce Dubbs has broken udev out of the systemd-187. Which you can see from here: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/lfs/view/development/chapter06/udev.html systemd-188 has been somewhat ugly.
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
On 08/11/2012 12:22 PM, Tom Gundersen wrote: On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 3:59 PM, Baho Utot baho-u...@columbus.rr.com wrote: One thing that the folks/upstream that are merging all these things together is missing is that the future of user computer is moving to phones and ipad type devices. PC will still be around but the consumer has spoken and it looks like he/she is moving to these devices. I don't condemn them for doing so as they want something that works. Turn it on and get what they want done, PCs don't do this. How are/would these giant concoctions going to play here as they don't have the storage, memory, or cpu to handle this. The direction should be going in the tool kit style as in here's the kernel and you can bolt on all of these independent things. Something like android? I would be surprised if a systemd-based system requires more resources than a sysvinit-based one, but that is of course something one would have to measure for each particular use-case. There are lots of systemd-based embedded systems cropping up (the embedded world seems more excited about sysntemd than the desktop world). The aim of systemd is to work on anything from embedded, via desktop to servers. -t I am not looking at this from an systemd point of view. My point is the constant bloat with software today. Theses bloated packages will not fit/function on hand held devices. Is it not more sensible to build small apps that do one or two things well then bloated apps that try to do 25 things unwell?
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
On Sat, 2012-08-11 at 11:17 -0500, Leonid Isaev wrote: tablets and i* devices are toys The hardware capabilities aren't used very good, but they anyway aren't toys. For professional audio usage there at least are amazing remote controls available. Until now I didn't find the kind of graphic app I need, but it's already nice to be able to make computer graphics, while having the freedom not to sit in front of a computer. For artist they are very useful. Until now I won't recommend to buy a tablet PC, regarding to the policy of Apple and because common Android tablets, old hardware and old versions of Android, don't have the needed capabilities. Most (really most) users just follow the hype, everybody wants a modern mobile and/or tablet PC and they like to use social networks, but there's also the possibility to use tablet PCs for serious work, at least for arts. You limit your way of seeing by yourself, that also explains your lack of insight, when other people try to explain the reason why forced dependencies are that bad. For some people computers are tools. Don't call tablet PCs tools, just because you limit your imagination and because you are not willing to listen to others. You might search the LAD and LAU archives for amazing examples about what already is possible with Android and iOS tablet PCs. There's much more possible, but we still tilt a little bit at windmills at the moment. Regards, Ralf
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
On Saturday 11 Aug 2012 17:51:44 Joakim Hernberg wrote: Sievers explained that it will still be possible to install udev independently of systemd. He added that this option will be supported in the long term because separate builds are required to ensure that initrds (initial ramdisks), which don't include systemd, work correctly. Distributions that don't use systemd can continue to build udev as before, but will have to use the systemd sources. Exact quote from http://lwn.net/Articles/490413/ In fact, we will be supporting this for a long time since it is a necessity to make initrds (which lack systemd) work properly. See the word lack and necessity. They do not talk about it as design features as so many people want. For them, this lack of systemd is a bug not a feature. So according to their design patterns, they would have liked systemd in initrd. -- Cheers and Regards Jayesh Badwaik stop html mail | always bottom-post www.asciiribbon.org | www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
On Sat, 2012-08-11 at 19:14 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote: On Sat, 2012-08-11 at 11:17 -0500, Leonid Isaev wrote: tablets and i* devices are toys The hardware capabilities aren't used very good, but they anyway aren't toys. For professional audio usage there at least are amazing remote controls available. Until now I didn't find the kind of graphic app I need, but it's already nice to be able to make computer graphics, while having the freedom not to sit in front of a computer. For artist they are very useful. Until now I won't recommend to buy a tablet PC, regarding to the policy of Apple and because common Android tablets, old hardware and old versions of Android, don't have the needed capabilities. Most (really most) users just follow the hype, everybody wants a modern mobile and/or tablet PC and they like to use social networks, but there's also the possibility to use tablet PCs for serious work, at least for arts. You limit your way of seeing by yourself, that also explains your lack of insight, when other people try to explain the reason why forced dependencies are that bad. For some people computers are tools. Don't call tablet PCs tools, just toys, greetz from Freud :D First I thought myself they are toys only, but they aren't. because you limit your imagination and because you are not willing to listen to others. You might search the LAD and LAU archives for amazing examples about what already is possible with Android and iOS tablet PCs. There's much more possible, but we still tilt a little bit at windmills at the moment. Regards, Ralf
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
I think people are really exaggerating how bloated systemd is. I fail to see how systemd would have issues running on mobile devices, if anything its more optimized for embedded devices.
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
On 08/11/2012 01:41 PM, Brandon Watkins wrote: I think people are really exaggerating how bloated systemd is. I fail to see how systemd would have issues running on mobile devices, if anything its more optimized for embedded devices. You didn't understand my point
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 1:14 PM, Baho Utot baho-u...@columbus.rr.comwrote: My point is the constant bloat with software today. Theses bloated packages will not fit/function on hand held devices. You were quite specific with your point here, and I disagree.
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
On Sat, 2012-08-11 at 13:59 -0400, Brandon Watkins wrote: On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 1:14 PM, Baho Utot baho-u...@columbus.rr.comwrote: My point is the constant bloat with software today. Theses bloated packages will not fit/function on hand held devices. You were quite specific with your point here, and I disagree. We can ignore every context, but the context is On Sat, 2012-08-11 at 13:14 -0400, Baho Utot wrote: Is it not more sensible to build small apps that do one or two things well then bloated apps that try to do 25 things unwell? +1 And I again will add, why is there the need for unneeded dependencies? Regards, Ralf
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
On 11 August 2012 19:14, Baho Utot baho-u...@columbus.rr.com wrote: On 08/11/2012 12:22 PM, Tom Gundersen wrote: I would be surprised if a systemd-based system requires more resources than a sysvinit-based one, but that is of course something one would have to measure for each particular use-case. There are lots of systemd-based embedded systems cropping up (the embedded world seems more excited about sysntemd than the desktop world). The aim of systemd is to work on anything from embedded, via desktop to servers. -t I am not looking at this from an systemd point of view. My point is the constant bloat with software today. Theses bloated packages will not fit/function on hand held devices. Is it not more sensible to build small apps that do one or two things well then bloated apps that try to do 25 things unwell? Systemd is broken into multiple small utilities (see eg. systemd-tools that are used by initscripts already) that does one thing, so it's not one big scary binary that does everything. In fact I believe* systemd is more suited for embedded devices than the current initscripts. Systemd is a bunch of small binaries that should be fast to execute in contrary to interpreting piles of bash scripts. Lukas * note that I'm saying this even though I don't like systemd very much (it's just my personal opinion, so don't try to argue with that) and I don't use it on any of my systems (nor I'm planning to in the near future).
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 03:30:09PM +0200, Tom Gundersen wrote: For better or worse, the reality is that there are hard dependencies on things you don't like. It seems that upstream is unwilling to change that. Then you should really ask yourself why they take that position. AFAICS, there is no solid technical argument for it. Now udev has been merged with systemd, and one can wonder why. According to the authors, it is 'because they share some common code'. A rather weak argument, that would be true for almost any two subsystems you can imagine. This is a misrepresentation. Udev and systemd were merged I think mainly because they belong together, but also because they had cyclic build dependencies as they are very tightly integrated. It's no misrepresantation, but an almost literal quote from one of the authors. Yes, systemd and udev are supposed to work closely together, that makes perfect sense. The solution preferred by grown-up programmers in such cases is to define stable interfaces on both sides allowing them to do that, not to merge them. Ciao, -- FA A world of exhaustive, reliable metadata would be an utopia. It's also a pipe-dream, founded on self-delusion, nerd hubris and hysterically inflated market opportunities. (Cory Doctorow)
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
On 08/11/2012 02:11 PM, Lukas Jirkovsky wrote: On 11 August 2012 19:14, Baho Utot baho-u...@columbus.rr.com wrote: On 08/11/2012 12:22 PM, Tom Gundersen wrote: I would be surprised if a systemd-based system requires more resources than a sysvinit-based one, but that is of course something one would have to measure for each particular use-case. There are lots of systemd-based embedded systems cropping up (the embedded world seems more excited about sysntemd than the desktop world). The aim of systemd is to work on anything from embedded, via desktop to servers. -t I am not looking at this from an systemd point of view. My point is the constant bloat with software today. Theses bloated packages will not fit/function on hand held devices. Is it not more sensible to build small apps that do one or two things well then bloated apps that try to do 25 things unwell? Systemd is broken into multiple small utilities (see eg. systemd-tools that are used by initscripts already) that does one thing, so it's not one big scary binary that does everything. systemd is one source distributed package arch split the package into the multiples you see here. In fact I believe* systemd is more suited for embedded devices than the current initscripts. Systemd is a bunch of small binaries that should be fast to execute in contrary to interpreting piles of bash scripts. It doesn't run on my android device nor would it be needed or required.
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 08/11/2012 05:48 AM, Fons Adriaensen wrote: The problem is that it becomes more and more difficult to install a system without all sorts of (for me and others) useless components such as PA. The reason is lots of hard dependencies that should be optional extensions instead. I'm asking this out of ignorance rather than rhetorically: How much of this is the distribution and how much of this is gnome? I know, for instance, if I install an Ubuntu or Mint system, they have these meta-packages that have all these dependencies to pull in, in this example, a complete gnome. Is that really the fault of upstream? - -- David Benfell benf...@parts-unknown.org -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJQJuyjAAoJELT202JKF+xpMNkP/jVkSUC66UpsAdxcNHBdDJex Wyhyjv2SAw46UMZovxLdPf64UTa2wEt9yZ0pw58PqZ3LLCfLy4b+gJ/Dr5+KPq6/ F2vsBrSBvi443DIWAockbXglfuJ6LCNxjFjgTSL+y5gsOR5OyoDaq1wLXFzRngN/ pkCRyur77A1QrEuo/vw7rZtxz4xuGIbtRMfnCupxUZpvWtK/Lss1jWSYZpQxHYQ/ 7Gtx0sHerZuv8uHkVybvd6/q7hKbBGFPBHG5KFvllXrhhzQ2LMrQFiErRDjYZhxz eVOeASpp+cB5ydVhU0RousFD6rkaaK6fCsEYoeT9biGPBTUUC+mLbSCf+3v7+Lil jE4+pQI3Eb7skLvrDZOGvOJQDzqftikku4POGYdZopkn1FnFRicEyHkzjgDT5O8D OOOc6hIBGbIHZ5iKf3ofxc/xgGabGFrWHpaH/4A9KFQh+DS6Y2yTQA2gtpfTGIlO 2InMymcmdyO9Y7FmTTW1u+gIL+wd3LbQtdKaHVApFBx+zT5oBfbip7Sv074ApH9D 35ij2KeBXKPToknI9qFtYVeQnunnvt+Lva/VzLZoivkwgTBABA3pbdR6CzTp3Xf0 2+Tc193QnW0ZUrZkQHVTW4PdqxXztEV66WhYnD0yPHlkzujPx2a4Pc3Sh7i6Qdhc Hl9rw1NHHyzOBGCF/lNV =2yEA -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 1:37 AM, David Benfell benf...@parts-unknown.org wrote: How much of this is the distribution and how much of this is gnome? Mostly upstream (depends of course a bit on which package you have in mind). If an app links against libpulse it means that it would crash if libpulse is not installed, so we add a dependency on libpulse. A dependency that does not cause the app to misbehave if it is not installed (such as plugins, etc) should (in general) be an optdepend. -t
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
On Sun, 2012-08-12 at 02:28 +0200, Tom Gundersen wrote: On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 1:37 AM, David Benfell benf...@parts-unknown.org wrote: How much of this is the distribution and how much of this is gnome? Mostly upstream (depends of course a bit on which package you have in mind). If an app links against libpulse it means that it would crash if libpulse is not installed, so we add a dependency on libpulse. A dependency that does not cause the app to misbehave if it is not installed (such as plugins, etc) should (in general) be an optdepend. https://aur.archlinux.org/packages.php?ID=48718 Nothing bad happens, if pulseaudio (not libpulse), is a dummy package. So why is pulseaudio a dependency and not optional?
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
On Sun, 2012-08-12 at 02:34 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote: On Sun, 2012-08-12 at 02:28 +0200, Tom Gundersen wrote: On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 1:37 AM, David Benfell benf...@parts-unknown.org wrote: How much of this is the distribution and how much of this is gnome? Mostly upstream (depends of course a bit on which package you have in mind). If an app links against libpulse it means that it would crash if libpulse is not installed, so we add a dependency on libpulse. A dependency that does not cause the app to misbehave if it is not installed (such as plugins, etc) should (in general) be an optdepend. https://aur.archlinux.org/packages.php?ID=48718 Nothing bad happens, if pulseaudio (not libpulse), is a dummy package. So why is pulseaudio a dependency and not optional? To make it clear, I'm speaking for a regular gnome-settings-daemon.
[arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
On Sat, 11 Aug 2012 00:56:33 +0200, Tom Gundersen t...@jklm.no wrote: On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 9:43 PM, Heiko Baums li...@baums-on-web.de /usr/lib/systemd/system Why don't you just delete the things you don't want? When not using systemd, is it ok to delete /usr/lib/systemd completely? Is it ok to replace libsystemd (or what ever is installed by dependencies) with a dummy-package? I'm not booted to Arch yet, so I don't know what exactly is installed. IMO dummy-packages are the best choice, if possible. E.g. regarding to pulseaudio the package https://aur.archlinux.org/packages.php?ID=48718 isn't maintained anymore. I never used it, but directly build a pulseaudio dummy package, but IIRC libpulse still must be installed. Why should somebody maintain a package, when dummy packages does the same job? However, it's not that easy to know what is and what isn't needed. Regards, Ralf
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 1:15 AM, Ralf Mardorf ralf.mard...@alice-dsl.net wrote: When not using systemd, is it ok to delete /usr/lib/systemd completely? No, initscripts uses a lot of stuff in there. Is it ok to replace libsystemd (or what ever is installed by dependencies) with a dummy-package? I'm not booted to Arch yet, so I don't know what exactly is installed. No. Lots of stuff links against libsystemd. -t
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
On Sat, 11 Aug 2012 01:15:32 +0200 Ralf Mardorf ralf.mard...@alice-dsl.net wrote: On Sat, 11 Aug 2012 00:56:33 +0200, Tom Gundersen t...@jklm.no wrote: On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 9:43 PM, Heiko Baums li...@baums-on-web.de /usr/lib/systemd/system Why don't you just delete the things you don't want? When not using systemd, is it ok to delete /usr/lib/systemd completely? Is it ok to replace libsystemd (or what ever is installed by dependencies) with a dummy-package? I'm not booted to Arch yet, so I don't know what exactly is installed. IMO dummy-packages are the best choice, if possible. E.g. regarding to pulseaudio the package https://aur.archlinux.org/packages.php?ID=48718 isn't maintained anymore. I never used it, but directly build a pulseaudio dummy package, but IIRC libpulse still must be installed. Why should somebody maintain a package, when dummy packages does the same job? However, it's not that easy to know what is and what isn't needed. Look, you don't _have_ to use pacman to manage software. As I said elsewhere, dependencies on pulse, lirc, etc. are there for a reason. If you disagree with this reason, file a bugreport. But using dummy packages is just cheating. Regards, Ralf -- Leonid Isaev GnuPG key: 0x164B5A6D Fingerprint: C0DF 20D0 C075 C3F1 E1BE 775A A7AE F6CB 164B 5A6D signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
On Sat, 11 Aug 2012 02:03:51 +0200, Leonid Isaev lis...@umail.iu.edu wrote: If you disagree file a bugreport. Any hints where to file a bug report are welcome. Seemingly nobody is interested, as already explained by Heiko. But using dummy packages is just cheating. So I should do audio productions with a Linux, that is unable to use my audio card? How should I do this? Regards, Ralf
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
On Sat, 11 Aug 2012 02:14:25 +0200 Ralf Mardorf ralf.mard...@alice-dsl.net wrote: On Sat, 11 Aug 2012 02:03:51 +0200, Leonid Isaev lis...@umail.iu.edu wrote: If you disagree file a bugreport. Any hints where to file a bug report are welcome. Seemingly nobody is interested, as already explained by Heiko. You could talk to the respective package maintainers... But using dummy packages is just cheating. So I should do audio productions with a Linux, that is unable to use my audio card? How should I do this? Audio production? All I said that you should learn how package management works on linux. Regards, Ralf -- Leonid Isaev GnuPG key: 0x164B5A6D Fingerprint: C0DF 20D0 C075 C3F1 E1BE 775A A7AE F6CB 164B 5A6D signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
On Sat, 11 Aug 2012 02:20:12 +0200, Leonid Isaev lis...@umail.iu.edu wrote: On Sat, 11 Aug 2012 02:14:25 +0200 Ralf Mardorf ralf.mard...@alice-dsl.net wrote: On Sat, 11 Aug 2012 02:03:51 +0200, Leonid Isaev lis...@umail.iu.edu wrote: If you disagree file a bugreport. Any hints where to file a bug report are welcome. Seemingly nobody is interested, as already explained by Heiko. You could talk to the respective package maintainers... Maintainers for what package/packages? But using dummy packages is just cheating. So I should do audio productions with a Linux, that is unable to use my audio card? How should I do this? Audio production? All I said that you should learn how package management works on linux. What exactly do I need to learn? Regards, Ralf
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
On 08/10/2012 08:03 PM, Leonid Isaev wrote: [putolin] Look, you don't _have_ to use pacman to manage software. As I said elsewhere, dependencies on pulse, lirc, etc. are there for a reason. If you disagree with this reason, file a bugreport. But using dummy packages is just cheating. Then how does one install arch? pacman is very convenient Isn't pacman the only package manager for arch? I did not understand that arch had many options for package managers.
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
On 11 Aug 2012 08:14, Ralf Mardorf ralf.mard...@alice-dsl.net wrote: But using dummy packages is just cheating. So I should do audio productions with a Linux, that is unable to use my audio card? How should I do this? Regards, Ralf By installing a distro that doesn't force you to use pulseaudio. Oh wait, that's Arch.
