Re: [Arm-netbook] Urgent statement on Cryptocurrency ethics

[Tor, the Marqueteur]

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On 03/21/2018 11:03 AM, zap wrote:
> 
> I think it is safe to say that cryptocurrencies aren't very
> feasible right now.
> 
> My thoughts are: Liberapay is a good idea,
> 
> I don't know if anything else is anywhere near as good.

Liberapay is good, though I'm afraid their funding model isn't
sustainable in the long term.

The development costs are probably mostly upfront, but there are the
ongoing server costs, and much more significantly, the costs of dealing
with disputes, fraud, etc.  I think the disputes should be fairly
minimal given the nature of their transactions, but they are sure to
come up, and it will take manpower to deal with them.

In the interests of their long term sustainability, I would like to see
them figure out what they need to deal with that, and charge it.
Probably somewhere around 1-3% from what I gather.  It would be good to
let the donor choose whether to pay it on top, or give a set amount and
take it out of what the recipient gets.

I really like their design of figuring out their costs for getting
money in/out of Liberapay, and charging that when those transactions
occur, so people know where their money is going.

Tor


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Re: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer

[Tor, the Marqueteur]

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On 02/15/2018 06:43 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
> --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware:
> https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
> 
> 
> On Thu, Feb 15, 2018 at 4:40 PM, Christopher Havel 
>  wrote:
>> I think the world is not full of stupid people. Two similar but
>> distinct logos should not be a challenge for the general
>> population... even in the USA, where education is somewhat
>> questionable in quality, or in African countries where education
>> is *ahem* borderline extant. You don't have to be able to name
>> e.g. pink and blue in order to know them as different...

True.  The problem (as I understand it) is when you have even
reasonably intelligent people who can't understand the language.  Few
websites are set up to refuse to serve pages to people who don't speak
the language of the site, and cannot, practically or impractically, be
fully reliably so limited.

If EOMA succeeds, this will be a problem in non-English to English
speaker as well as the currently discussed English to non-English speaker
.

>> 
>> Someone with an iq below say 75 /might/ have trouble - but someone
>> with an iq that's also a thermostat setting is going to have a
>> tremendous challenge just generally navigating through the world
>> as-is, and we can therefore ignore that use case.
> 
> statistically unfortunately the number of 75 IQ outliers increases 
> massively with sample size.  if 100 million is not enough to
> satisfy you that we cannot take risks, increase it by an order of
> magnitude to a billion people.

I had been thinking about this, and the problem, unfortunately, is not
even just about the 75 IQ outliers.  There is also the problem of
demonstrably intelligent people who seem to shut off their brains
around computers.  Maybe the infamous question about the "any key" is
the low IQ people, but I'm pretty sure it isn't entirely so, and
there's a whole lot of issues one step up that really do seem to trip
up intelligent people.

> 
> sorry chris.  really, we can't mess about with "options" here.
> it's one option or it's nothing at all.  "any colour as long as
> it's black".

Here is why it's "any colour as long as it's black":  Any logo MUST
work not just in colour, but in black and white, or further, embossed,
or engraved without any colour or lightness information remaining.


So far the only solution I see is to have a second term, *not* EOMA, to
refer to hobbyist hacking projects that are theoretically compatible.
The challenge, AIUI, is that such term *cannot* be used in the official
documentation, and even using it on this list, which is (imperfect name
or not) the official EOMA discussion list, is problematic.

This second term will be generated sooner or later.  It's unfortunate
that the need to keep them separate makes the bootstrap process a lot
harder, but that seems to be the price of keeping EOMA pure enough to
work for non-technical users.  And, frankly, for the technical users
who aren't in the mood to fuss with specifications at any given time.

For that matter, being weary of checking compatibility was a large part
of the reason I bought my computer from Think Penguin.

Tor


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Re: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer

[Tor, the Marqueteur]

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On 02/13/2018 11:05 AM, Christopher Havel wrote:
> I honestly don't know of a message archive, and my skills at
> searching through ANY archive have historically been a bit lacking
> at best. When you have time, point me to (at least a few) specific
> messages in an archive that make your case, and I'll go from there.

The archive itself is here, which you can sort by sender.
http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/pipermail/arm-netbook/

> 
> In the meantime, I still think it would be unwise to ban Ron.

My sense has been that his disagreement is in list management and
standards of polite list etiquette, not an issue with inappropriately
moving forward with hardware modifications that are damaging to the
standard.  Still an issue, and one that could result in a ban from the
list aside from certification mark infringement.

Also, I can see that people on this list are reasonably held to a
higher standard of adherence to the standard than the general public.
After all, everyone here has access to the archives of design, and the
ability to ask questions of everyone most involved in making this whole
project happen.

Tor

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Re: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer

[Tor, the Marqueteur]

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On 02/06/2018 12:01 PM, zap wrote:
> 
>> May-be if Ron says , he means to ask Luke
>> OR ANY MEMBER, to give an opinion as to whether Luke's ability or
>> time or opportunity, means that Luke can do that something.  If
>> some one means to convey THAT, I have not noticed any one here
>> suggest better wording than Ron's wording.  But it seems that
>> persons needed Ron to be more --verbose. :^) Ron, if this is the
>> meaning, then please confirm.  And then may-be, persons will react
>> as desired, to future uses of such wording.
> Just my two cents, but this has gotten WAY off topic...
snip...

Since I'm replying, I can see that the wording "Does anyone know if
Luke has..." seems more polite and proper is the scheme of things than
"Has Luke..."

> So yeah, what is the pyra computer again?
5" mini laptop/game console, very open as such things go:
https://pyra-handheld.com/boards/pages/pyra/




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Re: [Arm-netbook] I find this all strange, but good

[Tor, the Marqueteur]

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On 02/02/2018 01:04 PM, Bill Kontos wrote:
> What happened? Did I miss something? Where did that 250k come from?
> 
A sponsorship Luke mentioned in the latest Crowd Supply update.

Congratulations, Luke!


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[Arm-netbook] RAM Options for EOMA68-A20

[Tor, the Marqueteur]

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Just read the update and saw the question of known to work EOL
component or possibly uncertain newer version.

If needed, is there a possibility of getting Crowd Supply to close down
refunds for second batch, release that money, and use it to purchase
components for the complete set of orders and a few extras for future
orders.  Then consider the A20 done, and move on to the next EOMA68
that won't be dealing with the same component issues.

I think I recall you having a first working prototype of the newer
card, in which case this could probably work.

Tor

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Re: [Arm-netbook] updates from eoma68-a20

[Tor, the Marqueteur]

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On 01/27/2018 10:40 PM, zap wrote:
> lkcl wrote:
>> ... which wouldn't cost that much.  my main concern would
>> actually be: we have quite a lot of empirical evidence to suggest
>> that most people don't f*g well read the f*g updates.
>> witness the last set of complaints - RIGHT HERE - where people
>> said, "but but you didn't say anything about that!!!" and i
>> pointed them DIRECTLY at MULTIPLE updates which specifically,
>> specifically demonstrated that they had simply not been paying
>> attention.  at all.
> Hmm...  I have read most of them. Although I may have skimmed
> through a few. Mostly because they had to do with hdmi which is not
> my main interest.

Unfortunately, if there is more than one topic in an email, post, etc.,
many people seem incapable of noticing it.  Even when it seems they are
being paid to read the thing.  I don't know of a good solution there.

>> 
>> so, sad as it is to have to point it out, i really do not have
>> *any* confidence that people will actually bother to engage with a
>> poll in any meaningful way.
>> 
> Hm, you may have a point. Its not like you have a forum anyways
> after all right? and know who knows if they would after that
> anyways.
> 
> I am sorry if I came across as demanding, I just need 2gb of ram at
> the least for it to be usable on a regular basis for myself.

IIUC, the current state of affairs is that:
1.  The design costs have run high due to issues found in the prototype
that was supposedly working after being designed by a competent designer.
2.  The time required has similarly run high for the same reason.
3.  In that time prices on key components have risen, as much because
of a fluke of timing as because of valid price changes.
4.  Given current prices, the only known way to make everything work
with available resources is to put in lower capacity RAM ICs.

While even a dedicated update to backers might get ignored, and it's
not ideal in the first place, we obviously have some people prepared to
pay significantly more than the price increase to get the 2GB RAM.

Should a crowdfunding, all or nothing, be considered to gauge how much
people care about the difference in RAM?

Tor

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Re: [Arm-netbook] updates from eoma68-a20

[Tor, the Marqueteur]

On 01/27/2018 11:11 AM, zap wrote:
>>  a way to *increase* the budget is therefore the most sensible option
>> to explore and consider.  translation: someone needs to find more
>> money.
> Okay, but when I meant paying a little more, I meant what you would need
> to do it for one person. Aka on an invididual basis if need be...
> request + money aka..>
> If more money can be found however, everyone.  Though I dunno how much
> you would need..

Given that a prototype batch of ten runs $2000 USD, I'd guess this is a
floor for the increased cost without considering the component cost.
Given the age of the processor and related components, this may be a high
bar to reach.

If there is interest, however, is it possible to use Crowd Supply or
another crowd funding site to see if there is adequate interest in
helping cover the additional budget required?  I'd certainly be
interested in the possibility.

>>> It also dawns on me, that meltdown does not affect the a20 arm
>>> processor...
>>  correct.
> I thought so... :)

I've just been doing some reading.  IIUC, Meltdown is specific to Intel
for a decade, and maybe a couple of very new/forthcoming processors.
Spectre, on the other hand, is much more widespread, but without the
Meltdown exploit to leverage a path in, it's very difficult to
successfully attack a system.

Tor

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Re: [Arm-netbook] Cost of pre-production prototypes?

[Tor, the Marqueteur]

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On 10/11/2017 12:24 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 10:40 PM, Tor, the Marqueteur 
> <marquet...@fineartmarquetry.com> wrote:
> 
>>> thx tor.  btw i still need to send you a micro-desktop and some 
>>> of the laser-cut casework i have here, so you can design and 
>>> test the wooden corners.
>>> 
>> Sooner or later, yes.  I haven't worried too much because of the 
>> work to get the card itself working.
> 
> well the microdesktop has to go out at the same time, and that's 
> been ready for months.  it's a little limiting to use the card on 
> its own (no access to UART boot messages for example) and pushing 
> USB-UART wires into the 68-pin connector... i mean... i've _done_ 
> it...

True enough.  I'll send you my address.  On my end postal is reliable,
so there's no reason not to use the cheap option there.

Tor

> 
> l.


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Re: [Arm-netbook] Cost of pre-production prototypes?

[Tor, the Marqueteur]

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On 10/10/2017 10:07 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
> 
> On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 8:27 AM, Tor, the Marqueteur 
> <marquet...@fineartmarquetry.com> wrote:
>> 
>> I'm interested, and I should be able to cover the costs. ...
> thx tor.  btw i still need to send you a micro-desktop and some of 
> the laser-cut casework i have here, so you can design and test the 
> wooden corners.
> 
Sooner or later, yes.  I haven't worried too much because of the work
to get the card itself working.

> l.
> 

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Re: [Arm-netbook] Cost of pre-production prototypes?

[Tor, the Marqueteur]

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I'm interested, and I should be able to cover the costs.  That said, I
don't have sofware dev skills, so except perhaps for a micro-desktop
board (depends on final design of the micro-desktop), there's not much
advantage to the project in my having one.  Therefore, since it's more
a toy and chance to (hopefully, if the project succeeds) hold an
interesting piece of computer history, if there are people with the dev
skills, I'll willingly cede any position I have.

Tor

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Re: [Arm-netbook] OT: Librem 5?

[Tor, the Marqueteur]

On 09/26/2017 04:46 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 2:28 PM, Bill Kontos  wrote:
>> It's ironic, the moment intel moved the AMT to x86 everyone got into
>> breaking it. And there is a scheduled talk on how to run unsigned code
>> on any intel ME system for a conference in the next couple weeks.
> 
>  at lst.  that's extremely good news.  maybe i can do an intel
> eoma68 card some day after all.

That opens up an interesting possibility.  If that unsigned code exploit
might be able to be executed remotely and it breaks the trusted
security, then we could see in businesses that have to care about such
things a flight to AMD and... Talos.  The latter might do very nicely to
put open hardware and, by extension, free software into the prime-time
limelight.  Of course, that depends on Intel not being able to fix it,
though they'd probably be forevermore tainted by it.

Tor

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Re: [Arm-netbook] OT: Librem 5?

[Tor, the Marqueteur]

On 09/25/2017 03:17 PM, zap wrote:
> But also, piracy was a term coined  to make drm easier to implement
> without people freaking out against people in power/corporations.

From my reading, pirates/piracy as relates to copyright was actually
coined looong ago, well before software.  It originally referred to
publishers who found ways (often legal by means of other countries'
laws) to reprint works and not pay the author.  I'm pretty sure I once
read that the Gilbert & Sullivan operetta The Pirates of Penzance was
spurred at least in part by such copyright pirates.

Tor


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Re: [Arm-netbook] OT: Librem 5?

[Tor, the Marqueteur]

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On 09/25/2017 10:10 AM, Tomas Nordin wrote:
> We can stick with thinking in terms of black and white when it
> comes to whether some software is free or not. It is either free or
> it isn't. The four freedoms make that easy.
> 
> Then it can be hard on people to call them lazy by not making sure
> their machines are 100 % RYF because of convenience. But escaping
> ms office is not hard, there is not much convenience to gain there
> in place of freedom, only lock-in. On the machine side I would
> guess political activism is what is required.
> 

In some ways I agree, and in others I disagree here.  No, it isn't
always laziness to not have an RYF machine to work on.  Whether
anything, be it software, machine, or component of a machine is free
or not is a black and white issue.  A whole machine, however, or a
whole distro, also has shades of grey.

One way to think of it to pull from the software side because there
exists a better spectrum to reference, is to imagine all the OS/OS
distros lined up along an 8-bit greyscale colour bar, grading by how
much of the OS is free.  If what you care about is fully free, then
you're going to apply a threshold to that colour bar to find which
ones are a suitable option.  Nevertheless, someone running Debian or
even Ubuntu, is, when you look at the greyscale version, obviously
much closer to running free software than someone running Windows.

The same is true of machines.  As pointed out, right now there isn't
much of anything in modern-day technology for full-fledged
desktop/laptop (I believe that's actually nothing) that is fully free,
and the same for phones.  It isn't everyone who has a viable option to
use long-outdated hardware or do without a "smart" phone.  Further,
the chasm is in many cases too wide to bridge in a single leap.

Where I see the problem with Purism is that their advertising seems to
try to sound further along than they really are in supplying RYF-grade
hardware.  ThinkPenguin, on the other hand, (from whom I bought my
current laptop) appears to be providing hardware relatively similarly
far from RYF, but because they make very clear what they do and don't
have to offer, they have never to my knowledge, taken much heat for
it.  Paradoxically, if I've heard correctly, Purism has managed to
free at least one relatively recent processor from Intel's ME, quite
possibly due to the very controversy they have stirred up with their
marketing.


As for how to get more free HW, I think efforts like Talos, EOMA, and
even Purism and ThinkPenguin are the best way forward.  I wish the FSF
would do a bit more to promote upcoming hardware that can at least be
expected to be a step beyond what is currently available.  It is Talos
in particular I'm thinking of here.  When I wrote them after the close
of the Talos campaign on Crowd Supply, they indicated that the FSF
hadn't seemed very interested in working with them, and more
interested in a legislative approach.  I think this is a shame,
because that kind of approach, if successful, is only going to get a
lot of people mad at them.  Figure out how to promote open hardware so
that it ends up taking the market, and people will soon almost forget
that the world used to be different.

These are my thoughts right now, and may be worth no more than you
paid for them.

Tor


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Re: [Arm-netbook] hardware encrypted flash drive idea with gpl3 license

[Tor, the Marqueteur]

On 09/21/2017 01:10 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
...snip...
>  baiscally what i'm saying, with this story is: the tricky part will
> not be the software at all: the tricky bit will be getting a processor
> into a tamper-resistant, tamper-detecting box.
> 

I can't vouch for them, but ISTR a project on Crowd Supply to produce a
USB password storage device.  Been too long to recall how well it meets
the criteria for real security.

OT: I've recently gotten back to reading the list after all the list
emails got sent to spam for a while.

Tor


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Re: [Arm-netbook] Fwd: [trinity-devel] TDE Fundraiser

[Tor, the Marqueteur]

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On 14/06/17 12:39, Hendrik Boom wrote:
> If I understand correctly, tiling window managers don't put windows
> on top of one another.  On my laptop that would mean I have crazily
> small windows.

Depends on the WM.  I've tried a few, but returned to the first tiling
WM I tried, Ratpoison.  Couldn't get used to the way the others would
move and resize the tiles without being told to.  Ratpoison, on the
other hand, I've seen is arguably not a true tiler, but it starts with
the whole screen taken up with one window.  The screen can be then
partitioned into any number of frames by straight lines across the
frame being divided, with a window in each frame.  Any windows that
don't fit in the frames are "behind", as it were, the visible windows.

Tor

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Re: [Arm-netbook] modifying a 7 inch notebook cabinet toacceptapccard

[Tor, the Marqueteur]

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On 12/06/17 11:07, ronwirr...@safe-mail.net wrote:
>> The upshot of this is that trying to power a device with the 
>> battery/charger combo while charging the battery will confuse any
>> decent charger (and if it isn't a decent charger you SHOULD NOT
>> use it).  The only way around this is a charge controller designed
>> for such use that has three sets of terminals.  One for a source,
>> one for battery, and one for load.  The charge controller is then
>> able to distinguish the load from the battery charge current and
>> charge it intelligently.
> 
> 
> Your lowermost section, I do not follow.
In short this is dealing with a straight-up battery pack, not a fully
integrated power bank with charger.

> Let us assume you somehow are able to get the battery bank into the
> computer's cabinet. Let us say, you use an usb port on the usb
> battery bank to both charge the usb battery bank and power supply
> the pc card. In order to power the pc card, you would have an usb
> cable connecting the power bank and the pc card.

Assuming a schematic that looks something like:

  PC Card-\___
  |   Power supply
 _Charger_|
|
- --Battery

This is OK.  If the power bank is designed with internal charge
circuitry (required for USB powered devices because the USB voltage is
too high for Li-ion), then you should be OK.

> I have no power banks. Looking around, it appears power banks have a
> port for getting charged and one for power supplying devices.

In this case, simultaneous charge/draw may have some losses that would
be preferable to avoid, but if the power bank is well-designed it
should be fine.

> In general, are you sure, you cannot charge a power bank and 
> simultaneously have it power supplying a device? If the power bank
> can be charged and power supply a device simultaneously you would
> connect another usb cable from the charger which charges the power
> bank to the power bank.

It's a question of how the charger is arranged.  Laptops do this all
the time.

The schematic that does not work is:

   Battery
   |
   +---
   |   |
Computer   Li-ion charger

The problem here, AIUI, is that the charger can't cut off power to the
battery once it's charged, because it can't tell.  This will degrade
the battery faster, and Li-ion is the most dangerous chemistry to
mishandle.  It's not without reason that there are warnings everywhere
to only use proper smart chargers for Li-ion.

> Else if the power bank gets empty, you would remove the usb cable
> connecting the power bank and the pc card. Then connect an usb cable
> from the charger of the power bank to the power bank. I suggest to
> use a
> https://www.att.com/chargers/att-42a-dual-usb-low-draw-universal-wall-c
harger.html
>
> 
if you want to charge the power bank and turn on the pc card at the same
time.
> One usb cable from the charger to the power bank. One usb cable form
> the charger to the pc card.

This can be done.  The most important thing is to make sure the charge
circuitry has only the battery on the battery side of it.

By running off a power bank you will have some extra losses in the
boost then buck voltage conversions, quite possibly upwards of 10%.

Tor


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Re: [Arm-netbook] What's your EOMA card doing

[Tor, the Marqueteur]

On 14/05/17 23:02, mike.v...@gmail.com wrote:
> Let's have a "What's your EOMA card doing" site so the world can see
> where and how long cards are alive and what use they have.

That sounds like an interesting thing to follow.  Whether I'd do so with
mine remains to be seen.
> 
> Perhaps have each card have a, printed, unique number. So it's journey
> can be followed.
> 
> This obviously has security and privacy issues attached so it would need
> a lot of thinking through.

Some kind of serial number is pretty typical on something like this card
to begin with, just to keep track of when it was made, and be able in the
event of early failures to figure out which batch of components was faulty.

Using this serial number may not be a good idea for various reasons.  It
would add slightly to manufacturing costs (not ideal), but I could see a
separate unique identifier printed on a semi-removable label attached to
the card for use on such a site.  Just adding a die cut split to the
serial number label would probably be about right.  IME, those labels
typically last the lifetime of the product, but on the material it would
be adhered to, with a little effort they can be cleanly removed.

If actual registration of the card to be publicly tracked must be
manually done by the user, I see no systemic privacy issues to worry
about at the site maintainer/manufacturer(Luke) level.  People who are
comfortable with the world knowing and proud to display it will register,
while others won't.

Tor


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Re: [Arm-netbook] Solid wood corner prototype

[Tor, the Marqueteur]

I never got a reply to this message, and seeing you ready to send the
microdesktop PCB to production, I thought I ought to make sure you saw
it, Luke.

On 30/04/17 18:36, Tor, the Marqueteur wrote:
> On 30/04/17 17:47, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
>> i was just thinking, if you had the appropriate cutters (like a router
>> / plane with different width bits) it would be possible to just run
>> the parts through some sort of jig.
> 
> This is definitely possible.  With the corner design on my screen
> (apparently the blue ones in the photos), all the different levels and
> widths of cutout make it something I'd not want to think about doing that
> way.
> 
> Still, it looks like it could be simplified a bit.  You seem to have the
> PCB slot both top and bottom, which is nice for interchangeability, but
> could be dispensed with.  I'm thinking about other possibilities, but I
> can't yet visualise fully what the tolerances are relative to the
> populated PCB.
> 
> I know revisions of the PCB are generally hard (at least if they involve
> rerouting traces), but I have to ask what the implications of adding a
> sixteenth to each side edge of the PCB for mounting would be.  The length
> front to back would remain the same.  If that could be done and would
> allow the full rectangle of the corner piece to be used, then there are
> only two operations that would need to be done on the individual corner
> piece, namely the stopped dado for the PCB (only one per corner, two
> different corners) and the hole for assembly bolt.
> 
> Tor
> 
>>
>> l.
> 
> 


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Re: [Arm-netbook] list posting etiquette

[Tor, the Marqueteur]

On 09/05/17 20:55, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
>  nooo: it means that we have new people whom we need to accommodate
> and teach them how to not disrupt communication with over 400 other
> people.  as we get new people, that discussion naturally needs to take
> place regularly.

Is there perhaps a link to a good primer on mailing list posting
etiquette that should be added to the welcome message for new subscribers?

>  this kind of thing - not cutting extraneous context - is *really*
> irritating to have to read through.

Thanks for mentioning this one.  I've thought about saying something
about the looong messages with a short bit at the bottom, but I think
this one is better coming from you as list owner.

Tor

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Re: [Arm-netbook] System 76 - Entering Phase 3

[Tor, the Marqueteur]

On 22/04/17 00:20, Bill Kontos wrote:
...snip...
> So anyway, they do provide to the libre world. Nothing is locking you
> into only using ubuntu in their laptops and all the code they are writing
> is FOSS. I'm tired of all the purists that will bash every company that
> does a step in the right direction but does not go all the way through,
> even when that company was started somewhere around 2005 in a guy's
> basement when the ecosystem was much less mature and they had almost no
> funding at all( or because they call it linux and not GNU/Linux).
> 

Thanks for articulating this and spurring my thoughts.  I've been
thinking some of the same through much of the thread.  In fact, I bought
my last laptop from Think Penguin for that very reason.  Perfect?  No,
but from what I could find out, the closest thing to libre of what's
available in modern hardware today, and they are working hard to liberate
everything they can.  I also got the benefit of someone else doing the
work to make sure I could run a complete system with a fully libre
distro, no small task in today's world.

While someone's at it, perhaps Think Penguin should be contacted.
Actually, I just checked and they seem to have invited Luke to their
table at HOPE, so they are well aware of and interested in the project.


As far as I can tell, the EOMA68 laptop will be just about the first
fully libre laptop in /years/, and we are, like it or not, about epsilon
in the market.  The way the web has gone insanely bloated, people who
work using a computer need modern hardware now, and at least there are
companies out there applying all the muscle they have to get some sources
released.  EOMA68, while a good start, doesn't qualify as modern hardware
in that sense.  Maybe the second chip version will start to make inroads.

I was one of the would-be backers of the Talos mainboard, and found
myself disappointed with the FSF's lack of support for them as they were
the first chance of new hardware in several years that might achieve RYF
certification.

When there is nothing, beat loudly on the drum at the final destination,
but lose no chances to encourage every step in the right direction.
Remember also that there is more than one direction to take steps to the
goal from.

Tor


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Re: [Arm-netbook] microdesktop casework as DXF files for laser-cutting

[Tor, the Marqueteur]

On 02/04/17 11:27, Paul Boddie wrote:
> On Sunday 2. April 2017 23.05.25 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
>> ok so i've created corner-pieces which will need to be 3d-printed,
>> they contain slots for the PCB as well as for upright 1.5mm 3-ply
>> sides.  the far corner near the PCMCIA eject button needs some work /
>> rethinking because there's a cut-out in the PCB.
>>
>> the cut-out is basically too far back, and that's lack of iterations /
>> planning on my part - i'm not doing another revision of the
>> microdesktop PCB now, not at this stage, so i'll work something out.
>>
>> http://hands.com/~lkcl/eoma/kde_tablet/microdesktop_3.png
> 
> This should be the following, I think:
> 
> http://hands.com/~lkcl/eoma/kde_tablet/3dcase/microdesktop_3.png
> 
It comes in seconds after I ask.  Oh, well.

That, or an elegantized version thereof, will definitely work.  Dealing
with wood movement is the original reason for frame and panel cabinet
doors.  The long grain top and bottom don't move perceptibly, keeping the
door from being ugly small in the winter, and inoperable in the summer.

As I noted, the stacked ply may not be quite such an issue after all, if
you want to keep that.  It's taken me a while to wrap my head around just
how /small/ and /simple/ the microdesktop really is, with (AFAICT) the
single PCB being held only by the edges of the PCB.  In this case, the
Z-movement won't affect the PCB and components mounted to it, so the only
thing that remains is to leave enough space to allow for possible dry
climate shrinkage.

Tor

> :-)
> 
> Paul
> 


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Re: [Arm-netbook] microdesktop casework as DXF files for laser-cutting

[Tor, the Marqueteur]

On 02/04/17 11:05, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
> http://hands.com/~lkcl/eoma/kde_tablet/microdesktop_3.png

I get file not found, and can't find it in $eoma/(kde_tablet|microdesktop)

Tor

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Re: [Arm-netbook] microdesktop casework as DXF files for laser-cutting

[Tor, the Marqueteur]

On 30/03/17 19:28, Normand Chamberland wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> 2017-03-30 21:36 GMT-04:00 Tor, the Marqueteur
> 
> 
>  If I understand you, you mean something like this?
> 
> https://github.com/normandc/EOMA68/tree/master/Microdesktop/Images

That's exactly the direction I was thinking.
> 
> Please note I didn't add the dadoes nor vents and kerfing for the curved
> sides.
> 
> There's really not a lot holding the PCB, about 0.6mm due to the PCMCIA
> Connector being so close to the edge on the right (as can be shown in
> images 06 & 07 which has the front plate hidden). Maybe pieces oriented
> sideways would be best as they could provide more support width.

Or you might be able to cut a notch where the PCMCIA connector interferes
or put in a shallower dado for it, though the latter would take extra
time in the laser.

> 
> Also, with the bottom plate exceeding by 3mm all around this may make it
> hard to insert/remove the SD card, the plate might need to be notched.

That's a consideration.

It also occurs to me that if the design has the PCB held at one level,
with the connectors all just mounted to the PCB, then the Z instability
doesn't make that much difference.  Just account for it so the top
doesn't collapse down making the ports unusable and be done with.  Most
users are probably unlikely to be carrying it from desert to wet
rainforest too often.  Recommend "firm hand tight" for the screws, and
few if any will notice a problem.

Tor
> 
> Normand
> 

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Re: [Arm-netbook] microdesktop casework as DXF files for laser-cutting

[Tor, the Marqueteur]

On 30/03/17 12:00, Mark Van den Borre wrote:
> Hi Tor, hi list,
> 
> 2017-03-30 23:04 GMT+02:00 Tor, the Marqueteur
> <marquet...@fineartmarquetry.com <mailto:marquet...@fineartmarquetry.com>>:
> 
> I haven't put my dial caliper on enough pieces of similar plywood to make
> a statement about normal variation due to manufacturing tolerances.
> 
> I have. The 3mm birch plywood we use usually stays within +-0.1mm. Only
> rarely up to +-0.15mm.
> 
> Some extra stabilisation can also be designed into the z dimension by
> doing things like inserting (laser cut) plywood "grip beaks" along the z
> axis.
> 
> Another laser cutting technique that may come in handy is the "accordeon
> curve" or "kerf bend".

This could be used in conjunction with a dado in the top and bottom
pieces and rabbeting the sides.  This would keep the unmarked top and
bottom (with optional venting laser fretwork logos, etc.), and still
allow the sides to be held.  This would require flipping the sides to
laser the kerfs for the bends, and alignment of PCB mounting dadoes (on
the second laser operation) might be tricky at best.

The other option would be to dado the top/bottom for the full thickness
of the sides and let the top/bottom extend past the sides.

If a pair of internal pieces are used for mounting the PCB/card, then
you're up to eight pieces, but still less than the 11 I recall being
mentioned, and probably at better material efficiency.

Tor

> 
> Kind regards,
> 
> Mark
> --
> http://lusis.eu
> full service b2b laser cutting
> 

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Re: [Arm-netbook] microdesktop casework as DXF files for laser-cutting

[Tor, the Marqueteur]

On 30/03/17 10:49, Christopher Havel wrote:
> Idiot question from someone who does not work with wood very often.
> 
> Can't plywood, even little thin stuff like this, be sealed against
> moisture penetration? That stuff's gonna mold sooner or later otherwise,
> anyways...
> 
Any finish is moisture resistant, not moisture proof.  It will slow
changes, but long term in a given climate it will still change.  If
you're asking about it molding, you're probably in an area closer to the
tropical, high humidity climate.  The desert folk needn't worry about that.

Still, some kind of finish on it would be a good idea, just from a
practical cleaning perspective.

Tor

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Re: [Arm-netbook] microdesktop casework as DXF files for laser-cutting

[Tor, the Marqueteur]

On 30/03/17 10:47, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 30, 2017 at 9:39 PM, Tor, the Marqueteur
>> Thickness is where we lose all plywood moisture stability with the
>> stacked option.  8 layers, 3mm thick = ~24mm thick, or a little less than
>> 1".  As I posted earlier, between someone living in a desert, and someone
>> living in a wet tropical area, the latter may have a case almost 1/16" or
>> 1.5mm thicker than the desert person.
> 
>  hmmm damnit.  the screws will quickly trash the plywood if that's
> the case.  that tells me it's going to have to be a 3d printed plywood
> hybrid.  top bottom left right front back sides slotted into a curved
> corner arrangement, minimising the amount of 3d printing as much
> aspossible.  arse. let me think about it.  ideas anyone
> 
Well, it's not quite that bad for individual cases.  Provided someone
doesn't tighten the screws hard in dry conditions, they should be OK.
The place you have to watch is how it affects mounting tolerances.

When designing the case, not only do you have to watch the actual
thickness, but should figure possible movement tolerances in.  Making it
in a reasonably neutral humidity environment, that says from top to
bottom you should figure +/- .75mm.

I haven't put my dial caliper on enough pieces of similar plywood to make
a statement about normal variation due to manufacturing tolerances.

Tor

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Re: [Arm-netbook] microdesktop casework as DXF files for laser-cutting

[Tor, the Marqueteur]

On 30/03/17 03:46, Vincent Legoll wrote:
>> From a wood engineering standpoint I'd be in favour of looking into this.
>>  By using this method, wood movement with climate becomes negligible,
>> which makes things a good deal easier there.
> 
> We're talking about plywood here, and smallish pieces, so I think the climate-
> induced wood movement will be negligible whatever we choose.
> Unless you sunk it. ;-)
> 
Length/width, you're entirely correct, and that holds true for
significantly larger pieces than we've got here.  The laptop needn't worry.

Thickness is where we lose all plywood moisture stability with the
stacked option.  8 layers, 3mm thick = ~24mm thick, or a little less than
1".  As I posted earlier, between someone living in a desert, and someone
living in a wet tropical area, the latter may have a case almost 1/16" or
1.5mm thicker than the desert person.

Tor

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Re: [Arm-netbook] microdesktop casework as DXF files for laser-cutting

[Tor, the Marqueteur]

On 29/03/17 17:34, Normand Chamberland wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> Thanks Mark. Just to give some context to these files:
>
> - There are 11 lasercut wood pieces. That's a lot. Is the layered design
> definitive (I guess that's what the backers will expect since that's
> what's shown on Crowd Supply), or could this be discarded in favour of a
> new design optimizing fabrication? A more classic box with dovetail
> joints may be less expensive, and allow more control on the fitting of
> the board. Something akin to
> https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91H9TOVowCL._SL1500_.jpg
> (but hopefully with better looks!)

From a wood engineering standpoint I'd be in favour of looking into this.
 By using this method, wood movement with climate becomes negligible,
which makes things a good deal easier there.

Artistic only: The burned edges are arguable in any logo cutouts, though
less than optimal visually elsewhere (IMO).  If laser-cutting, however,
there is no choice, and the edges of a laser cut stack will exhibit the
same burned look, just all in a band around the outside, rather than in
scattered bits along the corners.  The example on the Crowd Supply page
appears to have been significantly sanded to minimize the burnt edges.
This is a time consuming operation that will reduce the accuracy of edge
alignment.

Any decent laser cutter can be used as a laser engraver to put (stopped)
dadoes to hold PCBs anywhere you want them.  You can also put a rabbet on
any layer for the same purpose as needed in the layered option, so that
isn't a serious obstacle.  The only (minor) limitation with rabbets is
that at the registration accuracy likely required, having a rabbet on
both sides of a layer for different boards is probably unworkable.

Tor

> ...snip


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Re: [Arm-netbook] microdesktop casework as DXF files for laser-cutting

[Tor, the Marqueteur]

Forgot the link to the calculator for changing wood dimensions in
changing climates:

http://owic.oregonstate.edu/wood-shrinkswell-estimator

Tor

On 21/03/17 17:56, Tor, the Marqueteur wrote:
> On 21/03/17 17:07, Normand Chamberland wrote:
> ...snip...
>> On the manufacturing side, I wonder if it may be a good idea to check the
>> real thickness of the 3mm plywood boards. Due to manufacturing
>> tolerances, materials provided in sheets are often thinner than their
>> nominal thickness be it for plywood, plastics etc.
> 
> Good point.  Also, with plywood, the thickness /will/ change in different
> climates.  Length and width should stay pretty stable, enough that I
> wouldn't consider worrying about anything other than perhaps two spaced
> solder joints directly being pushed/pulled by the case.
> 
> Taking quartersawn Birch (approximately correct for rotary cut hardwood
> plywood, going from an air conditioned desert conditions (70F, 10%RH) to
> an open tropical environment (80F, 90%RH), one could expect the case to
> swell .06" (or about 1/16") per inch of thickness.
> 
>>
>> As for the screws, difficult to evaluate from a couple of pictures but
>> they seem to be M3 socket head, black oxide, with hex nuts at the bottom
>> (possibly 2 per screw) with some kind of either plastic or vinyl cap.
>> Nickel plated screws would be better IMHO (considering the hex nuts are
>> either nickel or zinc) and not prone to rust like black oxyde screws, but
>> they might be difficult to source and more expensive.
> 
> IME, (US based) zinc plate is usually easy to come by and fairly cheap.
> The nice HW that really won't rust and is expensive is SS.
> 
> Tor
> 
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Normand
>>
> 


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Re: [Arm-netbook] Logos

[Tor, the Marqueteur]

On 18/03/17 15:48, John Luke Gibson wrote:
> I'm not entirely sure why resolution should be relevant. Something
> without small defining characteristics that are unclear or illegible
> when the resolution is low might be desire-able, but I would assume so
> long as any is still atleast 10 pt font when shrunk to 3cm on its
> widest dimension, it should be sufficient.

Depends on what the logo is for.  As a certification mark, without
checking, I want to say that typical is the logo in a 3/4"x3/4" box.
That's usually full-colour in good printing, though.  Then again, the
resolution is good enough that less important text can probably be
allowed to go down to 8pt.

For an EOMA-X certification mark, I'd be inclined to say that EOMA and
the number referencing which set of housings should have a version very
similar to the [full-colour] standard version that could even be
injection molded into a plug.  To wit, the EOMA-68 breakout board should
be able to have the certification mark silkscreened onto it or molded
into some part of the very minimal case it may have.

Tor

> 
> On 3/18/17, Alain Williams  wrote:
>> On Sat, Mar 18, 2017 at 03:14:11PM -0700, Mike Leimon wrote:
>>
>>> http://i.imgur.com/jjUbFx5.png
>>
>>> ...
>>
>>> Oh and I have one more general comment about logo creation of this sort...
>>> I think that
>>> it is very important to make sure it will look good rendered in only black
>>> and white because,
>>> that is essentially what it is going to look like when the
>>> logo/certification mark gets
>>> silk-screened onto a product.
>>
>> And also low resolution especially when scaled so that it is really small -
>> eg
>> the side of some box. This is my objection to the top of the two logos that
>> you have.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Alain Williams
>> Linux/GNU Consultant - Mail systems, Web sites, Networking, Programmer, IT
>> Lecturer.
>> +44 (0) 787 668 0256  http://www.phcomp.co.uk/
>> Parliament Hill Computers Ltd. Registration Information:
>> http://www.phcomp.co.uk/contact.php
>> #include 
>>
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Re: [Arm-netbook] Logos

[Tor, the Marqueteur]

On 17/03/17 10:08, Peter Carlson wrote:
> For me it really only works in the list. As stand alone I think it would
> be a WTF moment.

I have to agree that as a stand-alone logo, the E would be entirely lost
on most people.  Looks as much like random stuff settled in a crescent
moon as it does an E.

Tor

> 
> On Fri, Mar 17, 2017 at 1:55 PM John Luke Gibson  > wrote:
> 
> I was wondering what people think of the Cloister Black letter E for
> the EOMA logo. I can imagine that some people might find it hard to
> read or understand. Legible enough any one would suppose?
> 
> http://www.deathnotenews.com/uploads/1/7/3/9/17393465/5192168_orig.png
> 

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Re: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 In A Intel Card World?

[Tor, the Marqueteur]

On 11/01/17 21:11, Allan Mwenda wrote:
> A proper clone [of an EOMA68 card] to me would
> 1. Be up to standard hardware wise
Looks good
> 2. Run the same software as the Libre Tea/Numero Uno variants (or a
> perhaps a Chinese distro like Deep in) but hopefully not some pirated
> windows IoT
My impression is that EOMA68 is Libre Hardware.  Last I checked, one of
the tenets of Libre Hardware is that the hardware runs anything the owner
of the HW feels like coercing into running on the device.

> For 2. I think it should be clear from you these things run gnu/linux in
> the documentation.
A suggestion might work, but there are other things one might conceivably
run that are also Libre Software without being GNU/Linux.  BSD comes to
mind, but AFAICT, there is nothing stopping someone from producing a
purpose built embedded system for a card, or even a card that doesn't
make sense to put in half the EOMA68 housings because of the way that
embedded system works, as long as it provides the proper signals on the
proper pins.

EOMA50 would be better for it, but something like a digital audio player
might like an OS tailored to understand its buttons, and the card with
that OS installed on it might be a bit screwy to use for a laptop (or
phone).  Nevertheless, IIUC, as long as nothing will blow up, and you get
some semblance of usable output, it's still OK by the standard.

Tor

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Re: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 and display upsampling

[Tor, the Marqueteur]

On 22/12/16 17:38, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 23, 2016 at 12:00 AM, Tor, the Marqueteur
> <marquet...@fineartmarquetry.com> wrote:
>> On list it was noted that upsampling is an expensive operation (and it
>> certainly is), but I'm not sure it has to be.
> 
>  turns out that there's line-buffer ICs rather than full framebuffer,
> which will be cheaper.
> 
>> As I recall, most LCDs when driven with a lower resolution than native,
>> will simply repeat interspersed rows/columns...
> 
>  .. but they need to be scaled on an arbitrary basis on both row *and*
> column.  so you need at least a line-buffer to store a couple of rows
> so that you can use samplerate conversion on y coordinates as well as
> x.

In hindsight, colour me unsurprised on the cheaper line-buffer IC.
AFAIK, every bargain basement LCD monitor and every laptop screen in the
last two decades has had that capacity.

>> Alternatively, is there any reason a display for type I couldn't be set
>> to recognize a type II 1366x768 and display it in the centre of the
>> display to avoid artifacts?
> 
>  bleuch :)  it's not unreasonable but i think you'd find that users
> complain a lot!

Let them eat cake. :)  More seriously, I can think of times when, while
rare and less than ideal at best, I might prefer a clean small image to
that kind of "upsampled" image.
> 
>>  Or should such a display have a button to
>> switch modes so that it can display full screen with anything?
> 
>  honestly i don't care: if people want to make Housings that do that,
> it's up to them: market forces will decide whether their product is
> successful or not.

Fine by me.  From the PCB thickness measurements I recall reading, I
suppose manufacturers will be trying to figure out how to make type II
compliant cards capable of feeding 1920x1080 to housings with that capacity.

While I'm technical enough to handle some need to take care in selecting
parts, I applaud your efforts to ensure that anything will work with
anything in fits.  Much the way a mini-LCD can be driven from an output
suitable for a 4K HD display or a 4K HD display can be fed a DVD size
stream, and get something useful, or at least intelligible.

I'm looking forward to my card from the first batch.  Whether I can
manage it remains to be seen, but I'd love to see a 10" e-paper screen
tablet with enough USB to run arbitrary keyboards, etc and Emacs with a
<1W average power consumption.

Tor

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[Arm-netbook] EOMA68 and display upsampling

[Tor, the Marqueteur]

I was reading through the recent archives, and the question of displays
and upsampling caught my eye.

On list it was noted that upsampling is an expensive operation (and it
certainly is), but I'm not sure it has to be.

As I recall, most LCDs when driven with a lower resolution than native,
will simply repeat interspersed rows/columns as needed to fill the
display.  It looks dreadful, but it works.

Alternatively, is there any reason a display for type I couldn't be set
to recognize a type II 1366x768 and display it in the centre of the
display to avoid artifacts?  Or should such a display have a button to
switch modes so that it can display full screen with anything?

Tor

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