Re: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Top posting - are we there yet?
On Tuesday 16 November 2004 17:12, Jay Milk wrote: I'm a fairly reasonable person, and I have yet to see one good argument (and quoting netiquette is not on argument, that's opinion) for bottom-posting. To me, it is terribly inefficient and wastes time, especially when you hide your post between the original message and some ludicrously elaborate signature. Top-posting, to me, is more logical, as it presents the answer in a prominent position. And inline-posting makes sense when you're responding to multiple questions or points in an email... Whether you top post or not is irrelevant really. Top posting - you have to scroll around to find out what question they are answering. bottom posting - you have to scroll to find the answer. I'll reply to both top and bottom postings - if I think I've got anything to add. What's more annoying is people who just click reply instead of starting a new tread. Jon ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Top posting
So, that's how my tax dollars are spent? Outrageous, and certainly news-worthy. Good luck fighting off CNN and the like when this leaks out. Not at all, this is one of my favorite policies that has come from the performance improvement department. Yes that is right, it is official policy at my location to not deal with people who top-post. PI decided that with people moved around between positions it is always best for bottom-posting just as if on a mailing list even in two party communications as, if another person comes into the discussion, it is much quicker, and thus cheaper, to have a properly formatted communication to come up to speed. This is the same as the policy that businesses that send ill-formatted bussiness letters will not receive addition business when there is another suplier capable of delivering the product/service. Top-posting is even grounds for being written up if you later need to forward a copy of a message on to another department or person. It's no wonder that people gripe about dealing with government bureaucracy. Too pedantic in my opinion. ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
[Asterisk-Users] Re: Top posting
Gregory Junker wrote: I'll stop doing it when Walsh stops posting about it: http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.html (from the RFC) ...Don't wander off-topic, don't ramble and don't send mail or post messages solely to point out other people's errors in typing or spelling. These, more than any other behavior, mark you as an immature beginner. ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users This all reminds me so much of Jonathan Swifts bit about the BigEndians and the LittleEndians (referring to which is the 'correct' end to open a soft boiled egg) in Gulliver's travels. Stephen R. Besch ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Top posting
Stephen R. Besch wrote: This all reminds me so much of Jonathan Swifts bit about the BigEndians and the LittleEndians (referring to which is the 'correct' end to open a soft boiled egg) in Gulliver's travels. But that's simple, surely you should put the big end of the egg into the egg cup and open from the tapered end, so as to avoid the egg falling over and losing its contents! :-) -- Cheers, Matt Riddell ___ http://www.sineapps.com/news.php (Daily Asterisk News - html) http://www.sineapps.com/rssfeed.php (Daily Asterisk News - rss) ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
RE: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Top posting
Matt Riddell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Stephen R. Besch wrote: This all reminds me so much of Jonathan Swifts bit about the BigEndians and the LittleEndians (referring to which is the 'correct' end to open a soft boiled egg) in Gulliver's travels. But that's simple, surely you should put the big end of the egg into the egg cup and open from the tapered end, so as to avoid the egg falling over and losing its contents! :-) Of course, some people wouldn't spot that one end had already been opened and would proceed to open the other end as well. Unfortunately, these idiots usually end up making a complete pig's breakfast of the whole thing while irritating the more civilised diners. :-) -- _/ _/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/_/_/_/ _/ K e v i n W a l s h _/ _/_/ _/ _/ _/_/ _/_/[EMAIL PROTECTED] _/ _/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/ ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Top posting
Gregory Junker wrote: folder. No supplier gets a purchase if their people are not properly trained in e-mail communication. My employer spends quite a bit as You are kidding, right? Properly trained? By whose standards? What international commerce committee on email standards published the training regimen of which you speak? He just means these (Netiquette): http://www.xs4all.nl/~hanb/documents/quotingguide.html http://www.caliburn.nl/topposting.html http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.html -- Cheers, Matt Riddell ___ http://www.sineapps.com/news.php (Daily Asterisk News - html) http://www.sineapps.com/rssfeed.php (Daily Asterisk News - rss) ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Top posting
On Tue, 2004-11-16 at 00:10 -0500, Gregory Junker wrote: [snip] You are kidding, right? Properly trained? By whose standards? What international commerce committee on email standards published the training regimen of which you speak? [snip] Have a look at RFC1855 (http://www.dtcc.edu/cs/rfc1855.html). In the early days of the Internet, when the rules of engagement were defined, top posting was deemed a bad unwanted thing. Today many people can't even write a proper letter (e.g. form, spelling) and if it's a job application it usually ends up in the shredder. No second chances. Once burned they will start to pay attention to adhere to the rules of that particular form of communication. This is no different from communicating on a mailing list with its own set of rules. Except that one does get a second chance(s) because usually one is informed that non-html, properly trimmed bottom posting is the preferred way of communicating on a ML (the gigantic/spam signatures are another topic). The fact that Microsoft's mail products are braindead and make people top post does not change anything about how communicating using this medium was and is intended. If one prefers to top post then the obvious option would be to join a bulleting board that afaik publishes new posts on top: http://asterisk.xvoip.com/ Regards, Patrick ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Top posting - I'm almost sorry I asked!
I have read the the various views on top/bottom posting and it seems to me that the proper thing to do is: FIRSTLY, snip as much of the original e-mail as you can, SECONDLY, reply in-line so that your answers/points are immediately below the original questions/points, THIRDLY, having snipped extensively whether you top or bottom post is irrelevant and comes down to simply a matter of personal preference. It seems that top/bottom posting only becomes relevant if FIRSTLY and SECONDLY above aren't applied properly. If they are then in my opinion your views on top or bottom posting just come down to personal preference based on your e-mail client/newsgroup reader. I'm grateful to a number of people who have explained the perceived rationale/historical reason behind the netiquette. However, as I've got as much information now as I need and as this is a mailing list aimed at dealing with Asterisk-related issues could I suggest that we all drop the topic now. I am sure that strongly held views will be expressed again in the future, but hopefully we can be largely forgiving of mistakes and tolerant of others preferences. Regards, George ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
RE: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Top posting
So, that's how my tax dollars are spent? Outrageous, and certainly news-worthy. Good luck fighting off CNN and the like when this leaks out. -Original Message- From: Michael Greb [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 10:41 PM To: Asterisk Users Mailing List - Non-Commercial Discussion Subject: Re: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Top posting It may not be Tracy's but it is certainly mine, I even have communication. My employer spends quite a bit as well, as recently as three months ago a contract was put up for rebid correspondence. Ended up costing a bit more but well worth it. - A big branch of the Federal Government ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
RE: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Top posting
On Tue, 2004-11-16 at 09:53 -0600, Jay Milk wrote: So, that's how my tax dollars are spent? Outrageous, and certainly news-worthy. Good luck fighting off CNN and the like when this leaks out. It is covered under the No Child Left Behind program under continueing reinforcement of what should have been learned before joining a network. -Original Message- From: Michael Greb [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 10:41 PM To: Asterisk Users Mailing List - Non-Commercial Discussion Subject: Re: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Top posting It may not be Tracy's but it is certainly mine, I even have communication. My employer spends quite a bit as well, as recently as three months ago a contract was put up for rebid correspondence. Ended up costing a bit more but well worth it. - A big branch of the Federal Government -- Steven Critchfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
RE: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Top posting - are we there yet?
Apparently, no child was left behind... That's why we can find a lot of them here. My point was, should you have missed it, that I personally don't care what your posting preference is. I know what mine is, but I'm willing to work around yours and scroll more than I would think is necessary. I also don't care that you put YOUR money where your mouth is -- more power to you for conviction. I DO care, however, when self-proclaimed federal government employees go and put MY money where THEIR mouth is. It's bad enough they're wasting their tax-paid work time on petty discussions like this, but it's even worse when they decide to spend other people's money based on their personal preferences. If one of my employees told me he spent $1 more on something because he didn't like the ink color the lower quotes, that would be brought up in a review. If he spent $1,000 more, he might not make it to the next review. I'm a fairly reasonable person, and I have yet to see one good argument (and quoting netiquette is not on argument, that's opinion) for bottom-posting. To me, it is terribly inefficient and wastes time, especially when you hide your post between the original message and some ludicrously elaborate signature. Top-posting, to me, is more logical, as it presents the answer in a prominent position. And inline-posting makes sense when you're responding to multiple questions or points in an email... That said, I don't mind digging through what I consider a compost-heap of thoughts and find the answer I'm looking for. And I won't blast anyone for posting in that manner, because I understand that this is a matter of preference. I'm convinced that those who favor bottom-posting do so because to them, the advantages of bottom-posting are just as clear as the advantages of top-posting are to me and many others. Neither side will convince the other, it's just like politics. And just like in politics, disagreements aren't the problem; the problems arise when you personalize the attack (as, to my shame, I've done as well), marginalize your opponent, and worst yet, stop communicating entirely because of one issue. Top-Posters and Bottom-Posters are equal contributors to this mailing list. I found many good answers in bottom-posted messages, and I know from personal correspondence that I helped out a few folks with my top-posted messages as well. So, could we just agree to read around our idiosyncrasies and go back to paying attention to the CONTENT of a message, not its FORMAT? Discarding messages because they're in the wrong format is equal to discriminating against another human being based on outward appearance; be it skin-color, religion, nationality, disability, or -- as often found among engineers -- inability to match shoes and belt. In short, it's ridiculous and utterly inappropriate. -Original Message- From: Steven Critchfield [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 10:09 AM To: Asterisk Users Mailing List - Non-Commercial Discussion Subject: RE: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Top posting On Tue, 2004-11-16 at 09:53 -0600, Jay Milk wrote: So, that's how my tax dollars are spent? Outrageous, and certainly news-worthy. Good luck fighting off CNN and the like when this leaks out. It is covered under the No Child Left Behind program under continueing reinforcement of what should have been learned before joining a network. ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Top posting
I'll stop doing it when Walsh stops posting about it: http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.html (from the RFC) ...Don't wander off-topic, don't ramble and don't send mail or post messages solely to point out other people's errors in typing or spelling. These, more than any other behavior, mark you as an immature beginner. ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Top posting - are we there yet?
So, could we just agree to read around our idiosyncrasies and go back to paying attention to the CONTENT of a message, not its FORMAT? Discarding messages because they're in the wrong format is equal to discriminating against another human being based on outward appearance; be it skin-color, religion, nationality, disability, or -- as often found among engineers -- inability to match shoes and belt. In short, it's ridiculous and utterly inappropriate. Amen. ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
RE: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Top posting - are we there yet?
on the wrong side of the curve, your message regardless of content is dropped. You will find that to be true in a number of real world situations. If your advertisement makes me work hard to read, I probably will ignore it. If your store sign is indistingishable from the rest of the noise around it, I won't notice it. If your front entrance is too difficult to locate, I won't enter your store. If a resume is poorly formatted, it gets trashed. If your license plate on your vehicle isn't properly displayed, you will get pulled over and ticketed. Life is full of rules like that, get used to the fact that you are prejudged many times and probably written off before you actually had a chance to present any content. I understand it very well. I consider it a wonderful statement about my value when as a guy with long hair and a beard, I am choosen for the content I possess over the presentation of myself. But I do also understand that it took quite a bit more content to make it worth it to the person doing the choosing than any clean cut person. -Original Message- From: Steven Critchfield [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 10:09 AM To: Asterisk Users Mailing List - Non-Commercial Discussion Subject: RE: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Top posting On Tue, 2004-11-16 at 09:53 -0600, Jay Milk wrote: So, that's how my tax dollars are spent? Outrageous, and certainly news-worthy. Good luck fighting off CNN and the like when this leaks out. It is covered under the No Child Left Behind program under continueing reinforcement of what should have been learned before joining a network. ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users -- Steven Critchfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Top posting - are we there yet?
On Tuesday 16 November 2004 12:46 pm, Steven Critchfield wrote: On Tue, 2004-11-16 at 11:12 -0600, Jay Milk wrote: I'm a fairly reasonable person, and I have yet to see one good argument (and quoting netiquette is not on argument, that's opinion) for bottom-posting. To me, it is terribly inefficient and wastes time, especially when you hide your post between the original message and some ludicrously elaborate signature. Top-posting, to me, is more logical, as it presents the answer in a prominent position. And inline-posting makes sense when you're responding to multiple questions or points in an email... But you are under the sometimes false assumption that your answer is a) good for just that instance of the question, b) The proper answer without needing further discussion. If your answer is a one off and you are willing to repeat that answer every time question X comes up, then fine, you waste all of our time and bandwidth. Else you answer in a manner to wich someone looking in the archives can follow from the question to the answer and see if it applies. Remember your answer will probably still apply in 1-2 years. As someone who's been online since the beginning of the web I can certainly appreciate Jay's, and other's similar, views. But as Steven points out very well, it's not just about ourselves. We live in a community and the degree of order vs confusion we have is all up to us. Those who add to the confusion, ignorantly, or otherwise, are not helping. I've been tempted to top post many times, but I don't want to set that example for others to follow because I've seen how easy things go awry and how hard it is to get many back onboard. It's not about forcing you to do something against your will. It's about educating each other to understand what their actions do. Top posting means more confusion when others come and try to figure something out. If you want to receive help, are you also willing to contribute back? Then once they have that understanding it becomes a matter of integrity of whether or not they contribute. -- Steve Szmidt They that would give up essential liberty for temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Top posting - are we there yet?
On Tue, Nov 16, 2004 at 11:12:49AM -0600, Jay Milk wrote: I'm a fairly reasonable person, and I have yet to see one good argument (and quoting netiquette is not on argument, that's opinion) for bottom-posting. Try to figure out the following: | Because she wanted to get to the other side. | | | Why did the chicken cross the road? And now try reading many such backword discussions. To me, it is terribly inefficient and wastes time, Only when there is no proper quoting and/or your mailer does not hilight quotes well enough. especially when you hide your post between the original message and some ludicrously elaborate signature. One should not have a lengthy signature. At least such a signature should never be quoted. Top-posting, to me, is more logical, as it presents the answer in a prominent position. And inline-posting makes sense when you're responding to multiple questions or points in an email... If you insist, let's try it. As an example of why top-posting is a problem, look at this message. One reads my reply before reading your question. It is a waste of time when people overquote the original message. However with top posting it is often more difficult to quote only the relevant parts. You'll have to write some context in your reply anyway. So you might as well quote everything and never bother. (Not to mention that you don't have to actually go over the original message) Signatures should not be an issue, unless overquoted in replies. On Tue, Nov 16, 2004 at 11:12:49AM -0600, Jay Milk wrote: I'm a fairly reasonable person, and I have yet to see one good argument (and quoting netiquette is not on argument, that's opinion) for bottom-posting. To me, it is terribly inefficient and wastes time, especially when you hide your post between the original message and some ludicrously elaborate signature. Top-posting, to me, is more logical, as it presents the answer in a prominent position. And inline-posting makes sense when you're responding to multiple questions or points in an email... Now which of the two made more sense? -- Tzafrir Cohen +---+ http://www.technion.ac.il/~tzafrir/ |vim is a mutt's best friend| mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] +---+ ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Top posting
Steven Critchfield wrote: On Tue, 2004-11-16 at 09:53 -0600, Jay Milk wrote: So, that's how my tax dollars are spent? Outrageous, and certainly news-worthy. Good luck fighting off CNN and the like when this leaks out. It is covered under the No Child Left Behind program under continueing reinforcement of what should have been learned before joining a network. You crack me up! I have no choice but to steal this one... -Original Message- From: Michael Greb [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 10:41 PM To: Asterisk Users Mailing List - Non-Commercial Discussion Subject: Re: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Top posting It may not be Tracy's but it is certainly mine, I even have communication. My employer spends quite a bit as well, as recently as three months ago a contract was put up for rebid correspondence. Ended up costing a bit more but well worth it. - A big branch of the Federal Government ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Top posting
Let's keep discussing on the posting format, i'm sure all your asterisk problems will go away by doing so. Now, just to keep things going, if i delete all previous posts in my mail, would this be A) a top post B) a bottom post C) all of the above D) None of the above E) you don't really care as you just opened another useless message, all you want to do now is have your spam filter discard all messages containing the word bottom, or top as all you really wanted to do is get your asterisk up and running. F) The answer for D starts with a capital letter while the other messages don't and this is completely unacceptable, so just to be politically correct you stopped reading at that line. Congratulations, you just wasted at least 30 seconds on another useless message, thats about the same time to setup and dial the telemarketeer torture script, good for hours of priceless entertainment and timewasting. (and you might actually learn something while doing so) My 0.2 cents, (lets collect them to pay the poor bastard.digium will have to hire one day to moderate this mailinglist.) Zoa. Anyone replying to this post should be either damn funny or accept any no-more-support-from-me consequences. ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Top posting
On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:53:52 -0600, Jay Milk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So, that's how my tax dollars are spent? Outrageous, and certainly news-worthy. Good luck fighting off CNN and the like when this leaks out. Not at all, this is one of my favorite policies that has come from the performance improvement department. Yes that is right, it is official policy at my location to not deal with people who top-post. PI decided that with people moved around between positions it is always best for bottom-posting just as if on a mailing list even in two party communications as, if another person comes into the discussion, it is much quicker, and thus cheaper, to have a properly formatted communication to come up to speed. This is the same as the policy that businesses that send ill-formatted bussiness letters will not receive addition business when there is another suplier capable of delivering the product/service. Top-posting is even grounds for being written up if you later need to forward a copy of a message on to another department or person. Michael Greb ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
RE: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Top posting
YOU ALL HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME!!! Le'ts get down to the bottom of this (no pun intended). This is just a pissing contest... IT NEEDS TO STOP NOW. I'll top post, bottom post, left post, right post and NOT POST. NEXT!!! bkw ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Top posting
Worst thread ever. On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 19:02:07 -0600, Michael Greb [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:53:52 -0600, Jay Milk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So, that's how my tax dollars are spent? Outrageous, and certainly news-worthy. Good luck fighting off CNN and the like when this leaks out. Not at all, this is one of my favorite policies that has come from the performance improvement department. Yes that is right, it is official policy at my location to not deal with people who top-post. PI decided that with people moved around between positions it is always best for bottom-posting just as if on a mailing list even in two party communications as, if another person comes into the discussion, it is much quicker, and thus cheaper, to have a properly formatted communication to come up to speed. This is the same as the policy that businesses that send ill-formatted bussiness letters will not receive addition business when there is another suplier capable of delivering the product/service. Top-posting is even grounds for being written up if you later need to forward a copy of a message on to another department or person. Michael Greb ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users -- Is it something someone said, was it something someone said? ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Top posting
Jon Radon wrote: Worst thread ever. On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 19:02:07 -0600, Michael Greb [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:53:52 -0600, Jay Milk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So, that's how my tax dollars are spent? Outrageous, and certainly news-worthy. Good luck fighting off CNN and the like when this leaks out. Not at all, this is one of my favorite policies that has come from the performance improvement department. Yes that is right, it is official policy at my location to not deal with people who top-post. PI decided that with people moved around between positions it is always best for bottom-posting just as if on a mailing list even in two party communications as, if another person comes into the discussion, it is much quicker, and thus cheaper, to have a properly formatted communication to come up to speed. This is the same as the policy that businesses that send ill-formatted bussiness letters will not receive addition business when there is another suplier capable of delivering the product/service. Top-posting is even grounds for being written up if you later need to forward a copy of a message on to another department or person. Michael Greb ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users what is top posting anyway? ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
RE: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Top posting
This is top posting, but you don't need to worry about it yet. First, you need to learn how to post in plain text and how to properly quote a message. Sorry to continue in HTML format, but switching to plain text really screwed this one up. BTW, as for the top-vs-bottom argument, I have friends who are tops, and friends who are bottoms. Every one of them seem to get extreme satisfaction from their relationships with the other. -- Troy Settle Pulaski Networks http://www.psknet.com 866.477.5638 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kavit MunshiSent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 8:46 PMTo: Asterisk Users Mailing List - Non-Commercial DiscussionSubject: Re: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Top posting Jon Radon wrote: Worst thread ever. On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 19:02:07 -0600, Michael Greb [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:53:52 -0600, Jay Milk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So, that's how my tax dollars are spent? Outrageous, and certainly news-worthy. Good luck fighting off CNN and the like when this leaks out. Not at all, this is one of my favorite policies that has come from the performance improvement department. Yes that is right, it is official policy at my location to not deal with people who top-post. PI decided that with people moved around between positions it is always best for bottom-posting just as if on a mailing list even in two party communications as, if another person comes into the discussion, it is much quicker, and thus cheaper, to have a properly formatted communication to come up to speed. This is the same as the policy that businesses that send ill-formatted bussiness letters will not receive addition business when there is another suplier capable of delivering the product/service. Top-posting is even grounds for being written up if you later need to forward a copy of a message on to another department or person. Michael Greb ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users what is top posting anyway? ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Top posting
On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 23:22:55 -0500, Gregory Junker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If I want to address individual points in turn I happily trim and inline. To say that top posting is unprofessional is simply a meaningless blanket statement; in your opinion it may be, but I doubt it's your main criteria for assessing whether you want to do business with someone or not. Greg It may not be Tracy's but it is certainly mine, I even have filters on my work mail server that stick obvious top posted messages in the spam folder. No supplier gets a purchase if their people are not properly trained in e-mail communication. My employer spends quite a bit as well, as recently as three months ago a contract was put up for rebid simply for the supplier's sales people top-posting in their correspondence. Ended up costing a bit more but well worth it. Michael Greb - A big branch of the Federal Government ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Top posting
folder. No supplier gets a purchase if their people are not properly trained in e-mail communication. My employer spends quite a bit as You are kidding, right? Properly trained? By whose standards? What international commerce committee on email standards published the training regimen of which you speak? This must be a joke, ha ha. It must be nice to make enough money, and have enough time to worry about stuff like this. Greg ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Top posting
Whatever. I find it frankly more annoying to have people bottom post. I use Outlook Express for my mail (as do millions of others), and the way OE formats it's mail lends itself to top posting.When you bottom post, I need to scroll way down the message to see your response, while when you top post I can see the response right away. If I want to see the source message *then* I'll scroll down, but chances are I've already been reading the thread so this isn't necessary. Professional? That's a matter of opinion, I don't think it's any less professional to top post, it's purely a question of what's convenient for different readers. Besides, as has already been commented on before, people should just be happy that everyone's willing to spend their time offering their advice on this forum rather than being concerned about how their message is formatted... just my 2 cents... Paul - Original Message - From: Tracy R Reed [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Asterisk Users Mailing List - Non-Commercial Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2004 4:15 AM Subject: Re: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Top posting On Fri, Nov 12, 2004 at 06:57:05PM -, Kevin Walsh spake thusly: up properly. There is no excuse at all for lazily top-posting. As a businessman I also see it as a matter of professionalism. I see top posting and not trimming etc as just unprofessional. I regularly do get poorly formatted emails with no trimming and top posting and such emails always strike me as unprofessional and amature. To some degree email is not all that unlike traditional written communications. You would not send a client such a poorly formatted letter. -- Tracy Reedhttp://copilotcom.com This message is cryptographically signed for your protection. Info: http://copilotconsulting.com/sig ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
RE: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Top posting
Paul Fielding [EMAIL PROTECTED] lazily top-posted: Whatever. I find it frankly more annoying to have people bottom post. I use Outlook Express for my mail (as do millions of others), and the way OE formats it's mail lends itself to top posting. As you seem to find it difficult to move the cursor on your own, perhaps this utility will help: http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/oe-quotefix/ You could install it to fix your broken mail reader - if it's not too much effort. When you bottom post, I need to scroll way down the message to see your response The effort involved is clearly too much for you to handle. Are you really that lazy? If I want to see the source message *then* I'll scroll down, but chances are I've already been reading the thread so this isn't necessary. Your laziness will make life difficult for people who find your followups in a future Google search. Just because you've read the entire thread, doesn't mean that someone else will have done the same next year. Then again, the chance of you posting useful information for someone to find in Google does seem to be a bit remote. just my 2 cents That might be all your time is worth. Others get paid a little more than that. -- _/ _/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/_/_/_/ _/ K e v i n W a l s h _/ _/_/ _/ _/ _/_/ _/_/[EMAIL PROTECTED] _/ _/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/ ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Top posting
Dude...you seriously need either to relax, or remove yourself from this and all mailing lists if it is that bothersome to you. I consciously changed my Thunderbird formatting to insert replies at the top. I prefer it. So do many others. Get over it, and yourself. Jesus... Greg Kevin Walsh wrote: Paul Fielding [EMAIL PROTECTED] lazily top-posted: Whatever. I find it frankly more annoying to have people bottom post. I use Outlook Express for my mail (as do millions of others), and the way OE formats it's mail lends itself to top posting. As you seem to find it difficult to move the cursor on your own, perhaps this utility will help: http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/oe-quotefix/ You could install it to fix your broken mail reader - if it's not too much effort. When you bottom post, I need to scroll way down the message to see your response The effort involved is clearly too much for you to handle. Are you really that lazy? If I want to see the source message *then* I'll scroll down, but chances are I've already been reading the thread so this isn't necessary. Your laziness will make life difficult for people who find your followups in a future Google search. Just because you've read the entire thread, doesn't mean that someone else will have done the same next year. Then again, the chance of you posting useful information for someone to find in Google does seem to be a bit remote. just my 2 cents That might be all your time is worth. Others get paid a little more than that. ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Top posting
Kevin Walsh wrote: As you seem to find it difficult to move the cursor on your own, perhaps this utility will help: http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/oe-quotefix/ Wow! If only all people using outlook would use this! Seriously people, even if you are pissed off at Kevin, this link is really good. It gives you some of the features from Thunderbird in Outlook Express. Check it out. Now we just need an OE plugin that will only let people post in plaintext and we're sorted! -- Cheers, Matt Riddell ___ http://www.sineapps.com/news.php (Daily Asterisk News - html) http://www.sineapps.com/rssfeed.php (Daily Asterisk News - rss) ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Top posting
On Nov 15, 2004, at 00:18, Matt Riddell wrote: Now we just need an OE plugin that will only let people post in plaintext and we're sorted! ... or to mandate legible quote structuring and plain-text in the list charter ;-) -- Mark/ ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Top posting
Feel free to debate and argue, but to litter your response with personal insults to me simply tells everyone that your response is worth even less than my measely 2 cents. If you want to make it personal, take it to email rather than this forum so the others don't have to waste their time with it... Sorry everyone, this is the last public comment I'll make on the issue... :( regards, Paul - Original Message - From: Kevin Walsh [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Asterisk Users Mailing List - Non-Commercial Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2004 4:45 PM Subject: RE: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Top posting Paul Fielding [EMAIL PROTECTED] lazily top-posted: Whatever. I find it frankly more annoying to have people bottom post. I use Outlook Express for my mail (as do millions of others), and the way OE formats it's mail lends itself to top posting. As you seem to find it difficult to move the cursor on your own, perhaps this utility will help: http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/oe-quotefix/ You could install it to fix your broken mail reader - if it's not too much effort. When you bottom post, I need to scroll way down the message to see your response The effort involved is clearly too much for you to handle. Are you really that lazy? If I want to see the source message *then* I'll scroll down, but chances are I've already been reading the thread so this isn't necessary. Your laziness will make life difficult for people who find your followups in a future Google search. Just because you've read the entire thread, doesn't mean that someone else will have done the same next year. Then again, the chance of you posting useful information for someone to find in Google does seem to be a bit remote. just my 2 cents That might be all your time is worth. Others get paid a little more than that. -- _/ _/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/_/_/_/ _/ K e v i n W a l s h _/ _/_/ _/ _/ _/_/ _/_/[EMAIL PROTECTED] _/ _/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/ ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Top posting
On Sun, Nov 14, 2004 at 09:50:28AM -0700, Paul Fielding spake thusly: Whatever. I find it frankly more annoying to have people bottom post. I use Outlook Express for my mail (as do millions of others), and the way OE formats it's mail lends itself to top posting.When you bottom post, I need to scroll way down the message to see your response, while when you Unfortunately, MS has once again shot us all in the foot with their broken standards. I do realize that MS is to blame for most of the top posting that goes on because that is how they set up their email program. Also note that because of prudent quote trimming you only had to look down three lines from the top of the body of the email to see my comment so I am sure that my message showed up in the first page and you did not have to scroll at all. Professional? That's a matter of opinion, I don't think it's any less professional to top post, it's purely a question of what's convenient for different readers. If you are trying to sell me your product and you want to look good you should bottom post and trim. -- Tracy Reedhttp://copilotcom.com This message is cryptographically signed for your protection. Info: http://copilotconsulting.com/sig pgpiv9keWbfWa.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Top posting
If I want to address individual points in turn I happily trim and inline. To say that top posting is unprofessional is simply a meaningless blanket statement; in your opinion it may be, but I doubt it's your main criteria for assessing whether you want to do business with someone or not. Greg Tracy R Reed wrote: On Sun, Nov 14, 2004 at 09:50:28AM -0700, Paul Fielding spake thusly: Whatever. I find it frankly more annoying to have people bottom post. I use Outlook Express for my mail (as do millions of others), and the way OE formats it's mail lends itself to top posting.When you bottom post, I need to scroll way down the message to see your response, while when you Unfortunately, MS has once again shot us all in the foot with their broken standards. I do realize that MS is to blame for most of the top posting that goes on because that is how they set up their email program. Also note that because of prudent quote trimming you only had to look down three lines from the top of the body of the email to see my comment so I am sure that my message showed up in the first page and you did not have to scroll at all. Professional? That's a matter of opinion, I don't think it's any less professional to top post, it's purely a question of what's convenient for different readers. If you are trying to sell me your product and you want to look good you should bottom post and trim. ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Top posting
I don't know what is the benefit of this war of flames ... :o( --- Ing. Julio Alvarez Tejera Unix Trends *BSD, Solaris Linux --- extremely stable systems - Original Message - From: Gregory Junker [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Asterisk Users Mailing List - Non-Commercial Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2004 10:22 PM Subject: Re: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Top posting If I want to address individual points in turn I happily trim and inline. To say that top posting is unprofessional is simply a meaningless blanket statement; in your opinion it may be, but I doubt it's your main criteria for assessing whether you want to do business with someone or not. Greg Tracy R Reed wrote: On Sun, Nov 14, 2004 at 09:50:28AM -0700, Paul Fielding spake thusly: Whatever. I find it frankly more annoying to have people bottom post. I use Outlook Express for my mail (as do millions of others), and the way OE formats it's mail lends itself to top posting.When you bottom post, I need to scroll way down the message to see your response, while when you Unfortunately, MS has once again shot us all in the foot with their broken standards. I do realize that MS is to blame for most of the top posting that goes on because that is how they set up their email program. Also note that because of prudent quote trimming you only had to look down three lines from the top of the body of the email to see my comment so I am sure that my message showed up in the first page and you did not have to scroll at all. Professional? That's a matter of opinion, I don't think it's any less professional to top post, it's purely a question of what's convenient for different readers. If you are trying to sell me your product and you want to look good you should bottom post and trim. ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
RE: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Top posting
Sorry Paul, looks like the little troll spewed his venom again? His posts have been getting dev/null'ed by my server for a couple of months -- for quite obvious reasons. Kid Walsh's post should be all the evidence we need to show that WHAT you write is much more important than how you format it. Bottom-Post, Top-Post or Inline -- if THAT is what he has to write, he's proved himself to be an arrogant prick. -Original Message- From: Paul Fielding [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2004 6:39 PM To: Asterisk Users Mailing List - Non-Commercial Discussion Subject: Re: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Top posting Feel free to debate and argue, but to litter your response with personal insults to me simply tells everyone that your response is worth even less than my measely 2 cents. If you want to make it personal, take it to email rather than this forum so the others don't have to waste their time with it... Sorry everyone, this is the last public comment I'll make on the issue... :( regards, Paul - Original Message - From: Kevin Walsh [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Asterisk Users Mailing List - Non-Commercial Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2004 4:45 PM Subject: RE: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Top posting Paul Fielding [EMAIL PROTECTED] lazily top-posted: Whatever. I find it frankly more annoying to have people bottom post. I use Outlook Express for my mail (as do millions of others), and the way OE formats it's mail lends itself to top posting. As you seem to find it difficult to move the cursor on your own, perhaps this utility will help: http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/oe-quotefix/ You could install it to fix your broken mail reader - if it's not too much effort. When you bottom post, I need to scroll way down the message to see your response The effort involved is clearly too much for you to handle. Are you really that lazy? If I want to see the source message *then* I'll scroll down, but chances are I've already been reading the thread so this isn't necessary. Your laziness will make life difficult for people who find your followups in a future Google search. Just because you've read the entire thread, doesn't mean that someone else will have done the same next year. Then again, the chance of you posting useful information for someone to find in Google does seem to be a bit remote. just my 2 cents That might be all your time is worth. Others get paid a little more than that. -- _/ _/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/_/_/_/ _/ K e v i n W a l s h _/ _/_/ _/ _/ _/_/ _/_/[EMAIL PROTECTED] _/ _/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/ ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/aster isk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users If you're reading this, you clearly prefer bottom-posting. Sorry you had to scroll all the way down here. ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Top posting
On Fri, Nov 12, 2004 at 06:57:05PM -, Kevin Walsh spake thusly: up properly. There is no excuse at all for lazily top-posting. As a businessman I also see it as a matter of professionalism. I see top posting and not trimming etc as just unprofessional. I regularly do get poorly formatted emails with no trimming and top posting and such emails always strike me as unprofessional and amature. To some degree email is not all that unlike traditional written communications. You would not send a client such a poorly formatted letter. -- Tracy Reedhttp://copilotcom.com This message is cryptographically signed for your protection. Info: http://copilotconsulting.com/sig pgpTfU0ZBgPCl.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
RE: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Top posting
I don't recall Tom asking you to adhere to his rules No, he didn't. But I'd guess that readers of his email who are, perhaps, less sophisticated users of email lists will have been concerned about the attitude he projected and be unnecessarily anxious about posting questions in the wrong way. Since there is no wrong way I just wanted to try to project a more flexible attitude. This list has been and continues to be enormously helpful to me and it would be a shame that anyone was put off learning about Asterisk because they believe there is some need to post questions (or there own experiences) in some particular and mysterious way. As you say, those who demand a specific format (it seems an overly pompous requirement to me) do not have to answer. But others will nonetheless. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Andrew Kohlsmith Sent: November 11, 2004 11:51 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Top posting On November 11, 2004 05:17 am, Bill Seddon wrote: Oh, that's a great idea, Tom. Let's have everyone operate to your exacting standards. I can appreciate that not everyone did their degree in mail list etiquette and have lives to live and so want to be economical with their time. I don't recall Tom asking you to adhere to his rules; he gave what his conditions were for his help. My conditions are very similar. If you aren't going to make half an effort to give me the information I need to help you in a manner which makes it easy for me to help you, I ain't gonna try. You haven't paid anything for my time so I will dole it out any way that suits me. Capiche? So for my part I scan emails top, bottom or otherwise posted and reply if I think I have a contribution to make or something to learn (in my experience knowledgeable people are often extremely busy and brief). Correct. You seem to have more time to help, or more of a willingness to expend energy to help than Tom. If so, good. If not, no matter, it's your time anyway. :-) Clearly if something has become illegible or doesn't include relevant information, it's not going to garner any attention or convey any useful information. But in my experience most posts on this list are good enough and some tolerance goes a long way. Personally I will top-post if I am giving a message to the effect of Your solution was bang-on, my problem is gone, thanks for the help -- Otherwise I will put replies inline with the blocks of text that they go with. Either way, I trim any irrelevant bits. -A. ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
RE: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Top posting
Bill Seddon [EMAIL PROTECTED] lazily top-posted: No, he didn't. But I'd guess that readers of his email who are, perhaps, less sophisticated users of email lists will have been concerned about the attitude he projected and be unnecessarily anxious about posting questions in the wrong way. Since there is no wrong way I just wanted to try to project a more flexible attitude. Perhaps you should adopt a more flexible attitude and learn to follow up properly. There is no excuse at all for lazily top-posting. There is a wrong way, and your method of posting demonstrates it clearly. Please locate your mouse, arrow keys or whatever you use to move your cursor around, and make an effort to post your followups in context. -- _/ _/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/_/_/_/ _/ K e v i n W a l s h _/ _/_/ _/ _/ _/_/ _/_/[EMAIL PROTECTED] _/ _/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/ ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
RE: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Top posting
Must be nice to have time and money to worry about someone's posting method. Amazing. -- Richard Cook -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kevin Walsh Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 1:57 PM To: Asterisk Users Mailing List - Non-Commercial Discussion Subject: RE: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Top posting Bill Seddon [EMAIL PROTECTED] lazily top-posted: No, he didn't. But I'd guess that readers of his email who are, perhaps, less sophisticated users of email lists will have been concerned about the attitude he projected and be unnecessarily anxious about posting questions in the wrong way. Since there is no wrong way I just wanted to try to project a more flexible attitude. Perhaps you should adopt a more flexible attitude and learn to follow up properly. There is no excuse at all for lazily top-posting. There is a wrong way, and your method of posting demonstrates it clearly. Please locate your mouse, arrow keys or whatever you use to move your cursor around, and make an effort to post your followups in context. -- _/ _/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/_/_/_/ _/ K e v i n W a l s h _/ _/_/ _/ _/ _/_/ _/_/[EMAIL PROTECTED] _/ _/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/ ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
RE: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Top posting
It must be nice to waste everyone's time and bandwidth with such idle bullshit. bkw ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
RE: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Top posting
Richard Cook [EMAIL PROTECTED] lazily top-posted: Must be nice to have time and money to worry about someone's posting method. Amazing. Time is money, and I will waste neither trying to work out what it is you just followed up to. Perhaps if you learned to post in context... -- _/ _/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/_/_/_/ _/ K e v i n W a l s h _/ _/_/ _/ _/ _/_/ _/_/[EMAIL PROTECTED] _/ _/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/ ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Top posting
On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 18:57:05 -, Kevin Walsh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Perhaps you should adopt a more flexible attitude and learn to follow up properly. There is no excuse at all for lazily top-posting. This from the resident signature size champion. Lay off of it. I've seen this goofy flame several times from you, every time accompanied by your childish and egotistical signature, but do you see us flaming you for it every time you post? People will do things that annoy you, that's life. Perhaps you should adopt a more flexible attitude in accepting other people's idiosyncrasies instead of flaming everyone who may cause you distress by top posting. ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
[Asterisk-Users] Re: Top posting
George Gardiner [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: So that I can understand the almost religious fervour on this point could someone please explain to me why top posting is so hated!! Because there's such an enormous amount of communication one would like to take part in, and not enough time. The easier it is to quickly discover a) whether each item is interesting, and b) what is the exact context of the item, and of its constituent parts, the more interesting material we can actually read. Therefore, top posting and bottom posting are equally bad; the ideal is an easily readable text that's placed into its proper context by short quotes of the relevant bits of previous communication. (Note: *short* quotes. If the reader wants the full text of the previous message, retrieving that message takes but a moment, so there's no need to quote it all.) For my own part, I have taken to ignoring anything that is badly formatted, top posted, bottom posted, or otherwise makes it difficult to quickly get into the flow of the communication. My default is to move on; only if your posting quickly establishes that it is, in fact, interesting to me, will I read it. To put it bluntly: if you can't be bothered to make an effort to communicate, what you say can't be very important. ;-) -tih -- Tom Ivar Helbekkmo, Senior System Administrator, EUnet Norway Hosting www.eunet.no T +47-22092958 M +47-93013940 F +47-22092901 FWD 484145 ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
RE: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Top posting
From: Tom Ivar Helbekkmo [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 11 November 2004 09:38 My default is to move on; only if your posting quickly establishes that it is, in fact, interesting to me, will I read it. To put it bluntly: if you can't be bothered to make an effort to communicate, what you say can't be very important. -- I certainly agree with your sentiments in a general mailing list sense! I am of the opinion that this mailing list should entirely be devoted to a Question and Answer style, and that is all. So you point about Top of Bottom posting being irrelevant rings true. If people wish to discuss open ended topics (What XYZ Phone is the best? or Is VOIP going to cure world hunger?) then another mailing list should maybe be started. Asterisk - Users Technical and Asterisk - Users Discussion maybe??? The problem with ignoring badly formatted replies is more often than not the person replying couldn't careless if you ignored the reply but the person asking the question will care, especially if the information being supplied could be improved by your input! So sometimes its worth being a little more forgiving, for example if the original poster did go to significant lengths to provide a good question. I think the catch phrase should be Ask good questions and Give good answers. This includes all the things you mention. It would be extremely helpful if everytime someone gets an answer to their question as a way of thanks and etiquette they take it upon themselves to ensure that this answer is now covered in the WIKI. If this always happened and if people checked the WIKI the volume of repeat mails would drop hugely. For Example: Original Poster --- Asks Question LOOP Reply --- Request Improved Question (more detail / config files / logs /etc) Original Poster --- Resubmits Improved Question (Snipping irrelevant info) /LOOP Reply --- Answer Original Poster -- Reformats entire thread based on all answers and ensures question and answer are covered in an intuitive section of the WIKI Just my opinion. Alex This email and any attached files are confidential and copyright protected. If you are not the addressee, any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. Unless otherwise expressly agreed in writing, nothing stated in this communication shall be legally binding. ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
RE: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Top posting
Oh, that's a great idea, Tom. Let's have everyone operate to your exacting standards. I can appreciate that not everyone did their degree in mail list etiquette and have lives to live and so want to be economical with their time. So for my part I scan emails top, bottom or otherwise posted and reply if I think I have a contribution to make or something to learn (in my experience knowledgeable people are often extremely busy and brief). Clearly if something has become illegible or doesn't include relevant information, it's not going to garner any attention or convey any useful information. But in my experience most posts on this list are good enough and some tolerance goes a long way. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom Ivar Helbekkmo Sent: November 11, 2004 9:38 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Asterisk Users Mailing List - Non-Commercial Discussion Subject: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Top posting George Gardiner [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: So that I can understand the almost religious fervour on this point could someone please explain to me why top posting is so hated!! Because there's such an enormous amount of communication one would like to take part in, and not enough time. The easier it is to quickly discover a) whether each item is interesting, and b) what is the exact context of the item, and of its constituent parts, the more interesting material we can actually read. Therefore, top posting and bottom posting are equally bad; the ideal is an easily readable text that's placed into its proper context by short quotes of the relevant bits of previous communication. (Note: *short* quotes. If the reader wants the full text of the previous message, retrieving that message takes but a moment, so there's no need to quote it all.) For my own part, I have taken to ignoring anything that is badly formatted, top posted, bottom posted, or otherwise makes it difficult to quickly get into the flow of the communication. My default is to move on; only if your posting quickly establishes that it is, in fact, interesting to me, will I read it. To put it bluntly: if you can't be bothered to make an effort to communicate, what you say can't be very important. ;-) -tih -- Tom Ivar Helbekkmo, Senior System Administrator, EUnet Norway Hosting www.eunet.no T +47-22092958 M +47-93013940 F +47-22092901 FWD 484145 ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Top posting
On November 11, 2004 05:17 am, Bill Seddon wrote: Oh, that's a great idea, Tom. Let's have everyone operate to your exacting standards. I can appreciate that not everyone did their degree in mail list etiquette and have lives to live and so want to be economical with their time. I don't recall Tom asking you to adhere to his rules; he gave what his conditions were for his help. My conditions are very similar. If you aren't going to make half an effort to give me the information I need to help you in a manner which makes it easy for me to help you, I ain't gonna try. You haven't paid anything for my time so I will dole it out any way that suits me. Capiche? So for my part I scan emails top, bottom or otherwise posted and reply if I think I have a contribution to make or something to learn (in my experience knowledgeable people are often extremely busy and brief). Correct. You seem to have more time to help, or more of a willingness to expend energy to help than Tom. If so, good. If not, no matter, it's your time anyway. :-) Clearly if something has become illegible or doesn't include relevant information, it's not going to garner any attention or convey any useful information. But in my experience most posts on this list are good enough and some tolerance goes a long way. Personally I will top-post if I am giving a message to the effect of Your solution was bang-on, my problem is gone, thanks for the help -- Otherwise I will put replies inline with the blocks of text that they go with. Either way, I trim any irrelevant bits. -A. ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
