Re: [asterisk-users] Voicemail on Different Server

2007-04-30 Thread Stephen Bosch
Noah Miller wrote:
 At the time I set this up, MySQL replication was really designed for
 one-way replication.  Two way replication was possible, but required
 somewhat unorthodox methods.  (Maybe this has changed, I don't know).
 Configuration is also a little tricky.  It's not too bad to set it up
 between two machines, but 3 machines is more tricky, and 4 is even
 more tricky, etc, etc.  This client had only 3 offices at the time,
 but I knew they would be expanding.  They now have 6.
 
 Anyway, after getting everything working, I found that replication
 would periodically stop after some time.  I'd have to re-create the
 setup, and then replication would work for a time, and then stop again
 later.  This occurred across several different version of MySQL.  I
 suppose I could have fixed this issue with persistence, but
 unfortunately this was only an annoyance compared to the major issue
 of data corruption.

Your experience with database replication is not unique. I have seen
this happen with many flavours of database, not just MySQL. At the
critical sites where I've worked, database replication is not even on
the table as an option for precisely the reasons you state above: I have
yet to meet someone else who has had a positive experience with it.

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Re: [asterisk-users] Voicemail on Different Server

2007-04-30 Thread Anthony Rodgers
That's the way we want to go, but have been unable to divine the correct
settings for getting it working with MS Exchange.

CP

Tim Panton wrote:

 If I were starting a project now, I'd
 take a look at the (newish) support for IMAP storage for voicemail.


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Re: [asterisk-users] Voicemail on Different Server

2007-04-30 Thread Stephen Bosch
Anthony Rodgers wrote:
 That's the way we want to go, but have been unable to divine the correct
 settings for getting it working with MS Exchange.

Just for laughs...

what sort of problem do you have?

(Stinky, stinky MS Exchange... worst IMAP support -- but hell, maybe we
can find a solution)

-Stephen-
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Re: [asterisk-users] Voicemail on Different Server

2007-04-29 Thread Remco Post
Eric Germann wrote:
 How do you handle transfering vmail from one user to another when they're on
 separate servers?
 

I'd have a look at:
http://www.voip-info.org/wiki/view/Asterisk+Voicemail+ODBC+storage

Having voicemail stored in a database solves all kinds of potential
locking problems. I guess (never played with it) that voicemail messages
are accessable from all * servers that have access to that table.

 I'm using the single vmail server, mounted NFS partition for this right now.
 I'd love to be able to have them standalone so they're survivable when the
 WAN collapses, but I haven't figured out transfer.
 
 EKG
  
 
 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Noah Miller
 Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2007 2:15 PM
 To: Asterisk Users Mailing List - Non-Commercial Discussion
 Subject: Re: [asterisk-users] Voicemail on Different Server
 
 Hi Steve -
 
 Can you elaborate on this, I changed to storing the voicemail via 
 ODBC on MySQL.  Each server had it's own local storage, and then MySQL 
 replicated the databases between the sites.  This setup was terribly 
 finicky and unstable.  It was much worse than the NFS mount.  I 
 quickly gave it up.

 This sounds like it would probably work the best, especially if you 
 have users moving around between offices.  What was so finicky and 
 unstable about it?  I am not one to quickly give up.  I have found 
 that persistence pays off when the idea is sound.
 
 Yeah, I thought I had found the silver bullet with MySQL replication (the
 users do float between offices, so it seemed perfect).  There were a number
 of problems, but in the end it was table corruption as a result of the
 replication process that made me drop this solution.
 
 At the time I set this up, MySQL replication was really designed for one-way
 replication.  Two way replication was possible, but required somewhat
 unorthodox methods.  (Maybe this has changed, I don't know).
 Configuration is also a little tricky.  It's not too bad to set it up
 between two machines, but 3 machines is more tricky, and 4 is even more
 tricky, etc, etc.  This client had only 3 offices at the time, but I knew
 they would be expanding.  They now have 6.
 
 Anyway, after getting everything working, I found that replication would
 periodically stop after some time.  I'd have to re-create the setup, and
 then replication would work for a time, and then stop again later.  This
 occurred across several different version of MySQL.  I suppose I could have
 fixed this issue with persistence, but unfortunately this was only an
 annoyance compared to the major issue of data corruption.
 
 When replication worked, it was inevitable that after a time the voicemail
 storage table would experience data corruption.  Asterisk did not handle
 this gracefully at all.  It was effectively a total DOS.  This also occurred
 across several versions of MySQL.  Sometimes I was able to repair the
 tables, but usually I couldn't, and the users ended up losing quit a lot of
 voicemails.
 
 I did not have the ability to spend the amount of time I needed to fix the
 issue, so I scrapped the whole setup.  Regular local voicemail storage has
 been flawless in all installations I've administered.
 
 
 - Noah
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-- 

Remco Post

I didn't write all this code, and I can't even pretend that all of it
makes sense. -- Glen Hattrup
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Re: [asterisk-users] Voicemail on Different Server

2007-04-29 Thread Tim Panton


On 26 Apr 2007, at 21:07, Anthony Rodgers wrote:


It will stall asterisk - ask me how I know.. :-)

CP


Ouch!
NFS is great in a well regulated stable LAN with low latency and a  
high read/write
ratio. Take away any of those factors and it rapidly turns into a  
nightmare.


If I were starting a project now, I'd
take a look at the (newish) support for IMAP storage for voicemail.


Tim Panton

www.mexuar.net
www.westhawk.co.uk/



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Re: [asterisk-users] Voicemail on Different Server

2007-04-29 Thread Noah Miller

Hi Eric -


How do you handle transfering vmail from one user to another when they're on
separate servers?

I'm using the single vmail server, mounted NFS partition for this right now.
I'd love to be able to have them standalone so they're survivable when the
WAN collapses, but I haven't figured out transfer.


Unfortunately, I haven't figured out the transfer issue either.
Luckily, this client really doesn't need voicemail transfer
capability.  They opted to forego multi-site voicemail transfer in
order to get stable and reliable voicemail.

I've toyed with the idea of making some code contributions to Asterisk
to implement a shared-directory / multi-server-voicemail-transfer
feature.  I think this would require some radical modifications to the
existing structure.  Also, my coding skills are quite rusty, and I
don't have a lot of time to devote to this.  Even if I began coding in
earnest right now, I wouldn't be able to get anything in until the 1.8
release at the earliest.  Maybe I should have this client start a
bounty, or just go to the experts and pay Digium directly to implement
this.  I wonder what a reasonable amount would be?


- Noah
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RE: [asterisk-users] Voicemail on Different Server

2007-04-29 Thread Dean Collins
Hi Noah,
Russell from Digium is working on a piece of code for monitoring
'states' or 'status' across multiple servers (mainly to monitor do I
have a voicemail for collection on another server).

Do a google on the -dev list and you'll find some posts to reply to.

 

Regards,

Dean Collins
Cognation Pty Ltd
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
+1-212-203-4357 Ph


 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:asterisk-users-
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Noah Miller
 Sent: Sunday, 29 April 2007 11:03 AM
 To: Asterisk Users Mailing List - Non-Commercial Discussion
 Subject: Re: [asterisk-users] Voicemail on Different Server
 
 Hi Eric -
 
  How do you handle transfering vmail from one user to another when
they're on
  separate servers?
 
  I'm using the single vmail server, mounted NFS partition for this
right now.
  I'd love to be able to have them standalone so they're survivable
when the
  WAN collapses, but I haven't figured out transfer.
 
 Unfortunately, I haven't figured out the transfer issue either.
 Luckily, this client really doesn't need voicemail transfer
 capability.  They opted to forego multi-site voicemail transfer in
 order to get stable and reliable voicemail.
 
 I've toyed with the idea of making some code contributions to Asterisk
 to implement a shared-directory / multi-server-voicemail-transfer
 feature.  I think this would require some radical modifications to the
 existing structure.  Also, my coding skills are quite rusty, and I
 don't have a lot of time to devote to this.  Even if I began coding in
 earnest right now, I wouldn't be able to get anything in until the 1.8
 release at the earliest.  Maybe I should have this client start a
 bounty, or just go to the experts and pay Digium directly to implement
 this.  I wonder what a reasonable amount would be?
 
 
 - Noah
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Re: [asterisk-users] Voicemail on Different Server

2007-04-29 Thread Noah Miller

Russell from Digium is working on a piece of code for monitoring
'states' or 'status' across multiple servers (mainly to monitor do I
have a voicemail for collection on another server).

Do a google on the -dev list and you'll find some posts to reply to.


Hey Thanks Dean!  That sounds like a great starting point.


- Noah
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RE: [asterisk-users] Voicemail on Different Server

2007-04-29 Thread Dean Collins
No probs there  is a recording of a discussion on the 20th of April
located here
http://www.talkshoe.com/talkshoe/web/talkCast.jsp?masterId=22622talkCas
tId=22622 

 

Regards,

Dean Collins
Cognation Pty Ltd
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
+1-212-203-4357 Ph


 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:asterisk-users-
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Noah Miller
 Sent: Sunday, 29 April 2007 1:05 PM
 To: Asterisk Users Mailing List - Non-Commercial Discussion
 Subject: Re: [asterisk-users] Voicemail on Different Server
 
  Russell from Digium is working on a piece of code for monitoring
  'states' or 'status' across multiple servers (mainly to monitor do I
  have a voicemail for collection on another server).
 
  Do a google on the -dev list and you'll find some posts to reply to.
 
 Hey Thanks Dean!  That sounds like a great starting point.
 
 
 - Noah
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Re: [asterisk-users] Voicemail on Different Server

2007-04-28 Thread Noah Miller

Hi Forest -


I have two seperate systems at two different locations.  Each hosts
there own voicemail for their phones.
I have thought about just having all voicemail on one server.  Is the
best way to do this just through a dial app?

Can anyone think of draw backs to this?  One I can think of is I will
have to specify a extension to redirect 0 (for receptionist) back to
the Site A server.  I will also have to redirect all directory apps to
the voicemail server.


The first time I set up a multi-site Asterisk, I tried to do
centralized voicemail.  My only real motivation for it was to have a
centralized directory.  I originally did the NFS-mount method.  If the
internet connection ever went down at the non-central offices there
were two problems 1) users didn't have access to their voicemail, 2)
asterisk did not handle the situation gracefully.  I believe asterisk
will now handle the situation gracefully, but users still won't be
able to get their voicemail.

This was not acceptable to me or to the client, so I changed to
storing the voicemail via ODBC on MySQL.  Each server had it's own
local storage, and then MySQL replicated the databases between the
sites.  This setup was terribly finicky and unstable.  It was much
worse than the NFS mount.  I quickly gave it up.

My eventual solution for this client was to store voicemail locally at
each site.  For the centralized directory, I just wrote a quick shell
script to rsync the voicemail.conf file and all personal greetings
between all the servers.  Cron runs this script periodically to keep
all the asterisk servers up to date.  This solution is MUCH better.
It's been very stable and reliable.

There's now another option - you can store the messages on a central
IMAP server.  That may work for you.  I haven't done this setup yet,
but I believe if you wanted the centralized directory, you'd still
need to do something like an rsync script between various asterisk
servers.


- Noah



On 4/27/07, Anthony Rodgers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

mount -o intr,nolock ought to do the trick. we're using those
options now, but thankfully haven't had reason to find out if they work
or not yet.

CP

Doug Garstang wrote:
 No, you can get Asterisk and NFS to work fine together. It was in my
 past job, so I can't remember the exact settings, but there was some
 magic combination of NFS client mount settings that would cause
 Asterisk to return immediately, rather than hang, if there was an NFS
 communications problem.

 Doug.


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Re: [asterisk-users] Voicemail on Different Server

2007-04-28 Thread Steve Totaro

Noah Miller wrote:

Hi Forest -


I have two seperate systems at two different locations.  Each hosts
there own voicemail for their phones.
I have thought about just having all voicemail on one server.  Is the
best way to do this just through a dial app?

Can anyone think of draw backs to this?  One I can think of is I will
have to specify a extension to redirect 0 (for receptionist) back to
the Site A server.  I will also have to redirect all directory apps to
the voicemail server.


The first time I set up a multi-site Asterisk, I tried to do
centralized voicemail.  My only real motivation for it was to have a
centralized directory.  I originally did the NFS-mount method.  If the
internet connection ever went down at the non-central offices there
were two problems 1) users didn't have access to their voicemail, 2)
asterisk did not handle the situation gracefully.  I believe asterisk
will now handle the situation gracefully, but users still won't be
able to get their voicemail.

This was not acceptable to me or to the client, so I changed to
storing the voicemail via ODBC on MySQL.  Each server had it's own
local storage, and then MySQL replicated the databases between the
sites.  This setup was terribly finicky and unstable.  It was much
worse than the NFS mount.  I quickly gave it up.

My eventual solution for this client was to store voicemail locally at
each site.  For the centralized directory, I just wrote a quick shell
script to rsync the voicemail.conf file and all personal greetings
between all the servers.  Cron runs this script periodically to keep
all the asterisk servers up to date.  This solution is MUCH better.
It's been very stable and reliable.

There's now another option - you can store the messages on a central
IMAP server.  That may work for you.  I haven't done this setup yet,
but I believe if you wanted the centralized directory, you'd still
need to do something like an rsync script between various asterisk
servers.


- Noah



On 4/27/07, Anthony Rodgers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

mount -o intr,nolock ought to do the trick. we're using those
options now, but thankfully haven't had reason to find out if they work
or not yet.

CP

Doug Garstang wrote:
 No, you can get Asterisk and NFS to work fine together. It was in my
 past job, so I can't remember the exact settings, but there was some
 magic combination of NFS client mount settings that would cause
 Asterisk to return immediately, rather than hang, if there was an NFS
 communications problem.

 Doug.





Can you elaborate on this, I changed to storing the voicemail via ODBC 
on MySQL.  Each server had it's own local storage, and then MySQL 
replicated the databases between the sites.  This setup was terribly 
finicky and unstable.  It was much worse than the NFS mount.  I quickly 
gave it up.


This sounds like it would probably work the best, especially if you have 
users moving around between offices.  What was so finicky and 
unstable about it?  I am not one to quickly give up.  I have found 
that persistence pays off when the idea is sound.


Thanks,
Steve

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Re: [asterisk-users] Voicemail on Different Server

2007-04-28 Thread Noah Miller

Hi Steve -


Can you elaborate on this, I changed to storing the voicemail via ODBC
on MySQL.  Each server had it's own local storage, and then MySQL
replicated the databases between the sites.  This setup was terribly
finicky and unstable.  It was much worse than the NFS mount.  I quickly
gave it up.

This sounds like it would probably work the best, especially if you have
users moving around between offices.  What was so finicky and
unstable about it?  I am not one to quickly give up.  I have found
that persistence pays off when the idea is sound.


Yeah, I thought I had found the silver bullet with MySQL replication
(the users do float between offices, so it seemed perfect).  There
were a number of problems, but in the end it was table corruption as a
result of the replication process that made me drop this solution.

At the time I set this up, MySQL replication was really designed for
one-way replication.  Two way replication was possible, but required
somewhat unorthodox methods.  (Maybe this has changed, I don't know).
Configuration is also a little tricky.  It's not too bad to set it up
between two machines, but 3 machines is more tricky, and 4 is even
more tricky, etc, etc.  This client had only 3 offices at the time,
but I knew they would be expanding.  They now have 6.

Anyway, after getting everything working, I found that replication
would periodically stop after some time.  I'd have to re-create the
setup, and then replication would work for a time, and then stop again
later.  This occurred across several different version of MySQL.  I
suppose I could have fixed this issue with persistence, but
unfortunately this was only an annoyance compared to the major issue
of data corruption.

When replication worked, it was inevitable that after a time the
voicemail storage table would experience data corruption.  Asterisk
did not handle this gracefully at all.  It was effectively a total
DOS.  This also occurred across several versions of MySQL.  Sometimes
I was able to repair the tables, but usually I couldn't, and the users
ended up losing quit a lot of voicemails.

I did not have the ability to spend the amount of time I needed to fix
the issue, so I scrapped the whole setup.  Regular local voicemail
storage has been flawless in all installations I've administered.


- Noah
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RE: [asterisk-users] Voicemail on Different Server

2007-04-28 Thread Eric Germann
How do you handle transfering vmail from one user to another when they're on
separate servers?

I'm using the single vmail server, mounted NFS partition for this right now.
I'd love to be able to have them standalone so they're survivable when the
WAN collapses, but I haven't figured out transfer.

EKG
 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Noah Miller
Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2007 2:15 PM
To: Asterisk Users Mailing List - Non-Commercial Discussion
Subject: Re: [asterisk-users] Voicemail on Different Server

Hi Steve -

 Can you elaborate on this, I changed to storing the voicemail via 
 ODBC on MySQL.  Each server had it's own local storage, and then MySQL 
 replicated the databases between the sites.  This setup was terribly 
 finicky and unstable.  It was much worse than the NFS mount.  I 
 quickly gave it up.

 This sounds like it would probably work the best, especially if you 
 have users moving around between offices.  What was so finicky and 
 unstable about it?  I am not one to quickly give up.  I have found 
 that persistence pays off when the idea is sound.

Yeah, I thought I had found the silver bullet with MySQL replication (the
users do float between offices, so it seemed perfect).  There were a number
of problems, but in the end it was table corruption as a result of the
replication process that made me drop this solution.

At the time I set this up, MySQL replication was really designed for one-way
replication.  Two way replication was possible, but required somewhat
unorthodox methods.  (Maybe this has changed, I don't know).
Configuration is also a little tricky.  It's not too bad to set it up
between two machines, but 3 machines is more tricky, and 4 is even more
tricky, etc, etc.  This client had only 3 offices at the time, but I knew
they would be expanding.  They now have 6.

Anyway, after getting everything working, I found that replication would
periodically stop after some time.  I'd have to re-create the setup, and
then replication would work for a time, and then stop again later.  This
occurred across several different version of MySQL.  I suppose I could have
fixed this issue with persistence, but unfortunately this was only an
annoyance compared to the major issue of data corruption.

When replication worked, it was inevitable that after a time the voicemail
storage table would experience data corruption.  Asterisk did not handle
this gracefully at all.  It was effectively a total DOS.  This also occurred
across several versions of MySQL.  Sometimes I was able to repair the
tables, but usually I couldn't, and the users ended up losing quit a lot of
voicemails.

I did not have the ability to spend the amount of time I needed to fix the
issue, so I scrapped the whole setup.  Regular local voicemail storage has
been flawless in all installations I've administered.


- Noah
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Re: [asterisk-users] Voicemail on Different Server

2007-04-27 Thread Anthony Rodgers
mount -o intr,nolock ought to do the trick. we're using those 
options now, but thankfully haven't had reason to find out if they work 
or not yet.


CP

Doug Garstang wrote:
No, you can get Asterisk and NFS to work fine together. It was in my 
past job, so I can't remember the exact settings, but there was some 
magic combination of NFS client mount settings that would cause 
Asterisk to return immediately, rather than hang, if there was an NFS 
communications problem.


Doug.



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Re: [asterisk-users] Voicemail on Different Server

2007-04-26 Thread Anthony Rodgers

It will stall asterisk - ask me how I know.. :-)

CP

Gordon Henderson wrote:


On Tue, 24 Apr 2007, Forrest Beck wrote:

 I've heard there are problems using NFS as a storage device.???

I've used NFS for many many years on 100s, maybe 1000s of servers in this
time. It's great. Just works and does exactly what it says on the tin. I
use it at home, for my clients, on my hosted servers, everywhere. (well,
almost!)

BUT... If the NFS server should go offline for whatever reason then the
client systems that are reading/writing the data will stall, and depending
on how you've got them setup they will stall hard and not continue until
the server returns.

I haven't tried it with asterisk yet, so I do not know what will happen to
the voicemail system should the NFS server go offline for whatever reason.

Gordon
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Re: [asterisk-users] Voicemail on Different Server

2007-04-26 Thread Doug Garstang
No, you can get Asterisk and NFS to work fine together. It was in my 
past job, so I can't remember the exact settings, but there was some 
magic combination of NFS client mount settings that would cause Asterisk 
to return immediately, rather than hang, if there was an NFS 
communications problem.


Doug.

Anthony Rodgers wrote:

It will stall asterisk - ask me how I know.. :-)

CP

Gordon Henderson wrote:


On Tue, 24 Apr 2007, Forrest Beck wrote:

 I've heard there are problems using NFS as a storage device.???

I've used NFS for many many years on 100s, maybe 1000s of servers in 
this
time. It's great. Just works and does exactly what it says on the 
tin. I

use it at home, for my clients, on my hosted servers, everywhere. (well,
almost!)

BUT... If the NFS server should go offline for whatever reason then the
client systems that are reading/writing the data will stall, and 
depending

on how you've got them setup they will stall hard and not continue until
the server returns.

I haven't tried it with asterisk yet, so I do not know what will 
happen to
the voicemail system should the NFS server go offline for whatever 
reason.


Gordon
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Re: [asterisk-users] Voicemail on Different Server

2007-04-25 Thread Gordon Henderson

On Tue, 24 Apr 2007, Forrest Beck wrote:


I've heard there are problems using NFS as a storage device.???


I've used NFS for many many years on 100s, maybe 1000s of servers in this 
time. It's great. Just works and does exactly what it says on the tin. I 
use it at home, for my clients, on my hosted servers, everywhere. (well, 
almost!)


BUT... If the NFS server should go offline for whatever reason then the 
client systems that are reading/writing the data will stall, and depending 
on how you've got them setup they will stall hard and not continue until 
the server returns.


I haven't tried it with asterisk yet, so I do not know what will happen to 
the voicemail system should the NFS server go offline for whatever reason.


Gordon
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Re: [asterisk-users] Voicemail on Different Server

2007-04-25 Thread Per Jessen
Forrest Beck wrote:

 I've heard there are problems using NFS as a storage device.???
 

What else would you use it for?  After all, it's a file system. 


/Per Jessen, Zürich

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[asterisk-users] Voicemail on Different Server

2007-04-24 Thread Forrest Beck

I have two seperate systems at two different locations.  Each hosts
there own voicemail for their phones.

I have thought about just having all voicemail on one server.  Is the
best way to do this just through a dial app?

For example, if someone dials 1000 to check voicemail at site A.  The
dialplan will be something like this on Site A:

[context-for-phones-at-one-location]
exten = 1000,1,Dial(SIP/voicemailserver/${EXTEN})

Then on Site B where the voicemail is to be stored:

[context-for-incoming-voicemail]
exten = 1000,1,Voicemail(@vmcontext)
exten = o,1,Dial(SIP/siteAserver/receptionistextension


Can anyone think of draw backs to this?  One I can think of is I will
have to specify a extension to redirect 0 (for receptionist) back to
the Site A server.  I will also have to redirect all directory apps to
the voicemail server.

Does anyone do this?  How do you handle it?

Thanks.
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Forrest Beck
IAXTEL: 17002871718
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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RE: [asterisk-users] Voicemail on Different Server

2007-04-24 Thread Anthony Rodgers
Why not export an NFS mount from one server to the other? That's what we
do.

CP 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Forrest
Beck
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 5:28 PM
To: Asterisk Users List
Subject: [asterisk-users] Voicemail on Different Server

I have two seperate systems at two different locations.  Each hosts
there own voicemail for their phones.

I have thought about just having all voicemail on one server.  Is the
best way to do this just through a dial app?

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Re: [asterisk-users] Voicemail on Different Server

2007-04-24 Thread Forrest Beck

I've heard there are problems using NFS as a storage device.???

On 4/24/07, Anthony Rodgers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Why not export an NFS mount from one server to the other? That's what we
do.

CP

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Forrest
Beck
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 5:28 PM
To: Asterisk Users List
Subject: [asterisk-users] Voicemail on Different Server

I have two seperate systems at two different locations.  Each hosts
there own voicemail for their phones.

I have thought about just having all voicemail on one server.  Is the
best way to do this just through a dial app?

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--
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Forrest Beck
IAXTEL: 17002871718
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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