Re: [asterisk-users] Slightly OT:CSU on Digium cards, and it's requirement
On 6/15/07, Nick Seraphin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 14 Jun 2007, C F wrote: Bottom line is, no matter what the FCC says... and if somehow you managed to get it to work without a CSU... I believe the phone company would have a fit if they knew you connected equipment to their network without a CSU on it. They're very big on standards-compliance and stuff like that. Sometime look into their rules and regs about colocating equipment inside one of their CO's... it's very very strict. The last thing you say is why I am asking this question. The compliance doesn't realy bother me that much, what I am afraid is if the provider notices this and decides to cut it because of that. Whether they would actually cut you off or not probably depends on A) if they find out about it, and B) whoever finds out about it is a strict play-by-the-rules kinda guy and/or has a grudge against you or is having a bad day. A lot of telco employees tend to look the other way... especially if it's not their job to care about it. But... they would have every right to terminate the service if you don't have proper equipment connected to their network. So if they DID decide to terminate it, they would legally have the right to do so, and you would have no recourse other than possibly to purchase the correct equipment and maybe pay a reconnect fee to get service turned back on, which may take days/weeks/whatever time frame to do so. So it's basically a question of, can you afford the downtime caused by them shutting you off if/when they ever found out and/or cared enough to follow the rules. The other possibility, considering it is working for you now, is that there IS a CSU built in but they don't want to tell you... maybe for example because it's not FCC certified... or so that they can charge you for an external CSU. It's quite possible that the what you say about FCC certified (or any other certification on their built in CSU) is why they want you to buy an external one. They don't make their own (they recommend Adtran ACE). The other thing, if it would have a CSU it should have LBO settings and it doesn't. For the rest, I am going to get external CSUs since I can't afford the downtime. -- Nick ___ --Bandwidth and Colocation provided by Easynews.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users ___ --Bandwidth and Colocation provided by Easynews.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Slightly OT:CSU on Digium cards, and it's requirement
C F wrote: No, I installed the system, it goes from smart jack to the PRI card in the Panasonic KX-TDA200 thru the 0290 card When I first started working with T1's, most CSU's were external. I still have several of them in storage in fact... and I still use external CSU/DSU's on my production network today. :-) I'm typing this message and it will be sent over a T1 connected to 2 external CSU's before it reaches the internet. Bottom line is, no matter what the FCC says... and if somehow you managed to get it to work without a CSU... I believe the phone company would have a fit if they knew you connected equipment to their network without a CSU on it. They're very big on standards-compliance and stuff like that. Sometime look into their rules and regs about colocating equipment inside one of their CO's... it's very very strict. The last thing you say is why I am asking this question. The compliance doesn't realy bother me that much, what I am afraid is if the provider notices this and decides to cut it because of that. Several points: Your card does not contain a CSU, but you probably already know that. I just mention that so that everyone can stop scratching their collective heads. There was an FCC requirement for the functions of a CSU, but I don't know if it's still in effect or if it matters for you. (see below) The CSU is as much for your protection as the telco's. The CSU helps to isolate you from things like lightning strikes, and electrical hazards. Most, if not all, of the functions of the CSU are handled by the smart jack these days. Line conditioning being the exception. Most smart jacks provide loopback, diagnostics, and in some cases line monitoring. You may not get any help from your provider if you don't have a CSU on the line, but you will probably not be cut off since the smart jack is providing the functions required. This is a very different situation from the past when diagnostic and loopback functions were only available through a CSU. I mentioned line conditioning above. Keep in mind that your service is working now, but if conditions should change, and the signal degrades, you may experience an outage. It's my understanding that a CSU will help prevent that. So, no, you don't absolutely HAVE to have a CSU these day if the conditions are just right, but it's cheap insurance against some types of damage and signal loss, and will increase the likely-hood that your carrier will actually help you if there's a problem. -- Jeff Davis Netsource Consulting ___ --Bandwidth and Colocation provided by Easynews.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Slightly OT:CSU on Digium cards, and it's requirement
On 6/14/07, Nick Seraphin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 14 Jun 2007, C F wrote: On 6/13/07, Erik Anderson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 6/13/07, C F [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This is just weird I wrote it in caps so you can read it but you still didn't read it so here it is again: its a T1 card that does NOT have a CSU in it, and it is working fine and yes it is a T1 providing PRI. sarcasm Dang shmaltz. You've convinced us - we've all been wasting our precious money on CSUs this whole time. We're all idiots! /sarcasm Seriously - if you're so sure about your card not having a CSU, what is the make/model? Pony up, man. It's a Panasonic KX-TA0187 for T1, or KX-TA02290 The docs and technicians say it doesn have one AND that the FCC requires it. Hence my qeustion does the FCC require it. I think what he's referring to is really the KX-TD187... which is a T1 interface module for the Panasonic KX-TD1232 Digital Hybrid Phone System (I have one of these systems, but not the T1 module). No, I am reffering to KX-TA0187 which is a T1 card for the Panaosnic KX-TDA line. and the KX-TA0290 which is a PRI card for the Panasonic KX-TDA line. Now there is a KX-TA1232 analog system, and maybe there was a KX-TA187 module for it that has since been discontinued... but I think he meant the digital one. http://www.ablecomm.com/t1isdideq.html They do SAY it doesn't have a CSU... but it's beyond my understanding of how it could possibly work without one. They seem to sell a separate CSU module that can go with it. Maybe he's just not seeing the extra little box because there's more wire between that and the demarc? Was this a system that was already installed for you? Or did you install it yourself? Maybe the CSU is external and you just didn't recognize/see it there? No, I installed the system, it goes from smart jack to the PRI card in the Panasonic KX-TDA200 thru the 0290 card When I first started working with T1's, most CSU's were external. I still have several of them in storage in fact... and I still use external CSU/DSU's on my production network today. :-) I'm typing this message and it will be sent over a T1 connected to 2 external CSU's before it reaches the internet. Bottom line is, no matter what the FCC says... and if somehow you managed to get it to work without a CSU... I believe the phone company would have a fit if they knew you connected equipment to their network without a CSU on it. They're very big on standards-compliance and stuff like that. Sometime look into their rules and regs about colocating equipment inside one of their CO's... it's very very strict. The last thing you say is why I am asking this question. The compliance doesn't realy bother me that much, what I am afraid is if the provider notices this and decides to cut it because of that. -- Nick ___ --Bandwidth and Colocation provided by Easynews.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users ___ --Bandwidth and Colocation provided by Easynews.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Slightly OT:CSU on Digium cards, and it's requirement
What I am thinking is that a CSU could provide mutiple functions, error handling, diagnostics and signal boosting, which is not built into the Panasonic equipment, but the lower level signaling that a CSU could provide is built into it, and that's why it works. As far as I knew before I read it was that it shoudn't work, but according to that documentation it is suppose to work. On 6/14/07, C F [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 6/14/07, Nick Seraphin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 14 Jun 2007, C F wrote: On 6/13/07, Erik Anderson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 6/13/07, C F [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This is just weird I wrote it in caps so you can read it but you still didn't read it so here it is again: its a T1 card that does NOT have a CSU in it, and it is working fine and yes it is a T1 providing PRI. sarcasm Dang shmaltz. You've convinced us - we've all been wasting our precious money on CSUs this whole time. We're all idiots! /sarcasm Seriously - if you're so sure about your card not having a CSU, what is the make/model? Pony up, man. It's a Panasonic KX-TA0187 for T1, or KX-TA02290 The docs and technicians say it doesn have one AND that the FCC requires it. Hence my qeustion does the FCC require it. I think what he's referring to is really the KX-TD187... which is a T1 interface module for the Panasonic KX-TD1232 Digital Hybrid Phone System (I have one of these systems, but not the T1 module). No, I am reffering to KX-TA0187 which is a T1 card for the Panaosnic KX-TDA line. and the KX-TA0290 which is a PRI card for the Panasonic KX-TDA line. Now there is a KX-TA1232 analog system, and maybe there was a KX-TA187 module for it that has since been discontinued... but I think he meant the digital one. http://www.ablecomm.com/t1isdideq.html They do SAY it doesn't have a CSU... but it's beyond my understanding of how it could possibly work without one. They seem to sell a separate CSU module that can go with it. Maybe he's just not seeing the extra little box because there's more wire between that and the demarc? Was this a system that was already installed for you? Or did you install it yourself? Maybe the CSU is external and you just didn't recognize/see it there? No, I installed the system, it goes from smart jack to the PRI card in the Panasonic KX-TDA200 thru the 0290 card When I first started working with T1's, most CSU's were external. I still have several of them in storage in fact... and I still use external CSU/DSU's on my production network today. :-) I'm typing this message and it will be sent over a T1 connected to 2 external CSU's before it reaches the internet. Bottom line is, no matter what the FCC says... and if somehow you managed to get it to work without a CSU... I believe the phone company would have a fit if they knew you connected equipment to their network without a CSU on it. They're very big on standards-compliance and stuff like that. Sometime look into their rules and regs about colocating equipment inside one of their CO's... it's very very strict. The last thing you say is why I am asking this question. The compliance doesn't realy bother me that much, what I am afraid is if the provider notices this and decides to cut it because of that. -- Nick ___ --Bandwidth and Colocation provided by Easynews.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users ___ --Bandwidth and Colocation provided by Easynews.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Slightly OT:CSU on Digium cards, and it's requirement
On Thu, 14 Jun 2007, C F wrote: but the lower level signaling that a CSU could provide is built into it Possible. In any event, it is this function that describes the essential aspects of a CSU. But I think the standard is very clear on the requirements for OAMP stuff too. -- Alex Balashov Evariste Systems Web: http://www.evaristesys.com/ Tel: +1-678-954-0670 Direct : +1-678-954-0671 ___ --Bandwidth and Colocation provided by Easynews.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Slightly OT:CSU on Digium cards, and it's requirement
On Thu, 14 Jun 2007, C F wrote: Bottom line is, no matter what the FCC says... and if somehow you managed to get it to work without a CSU... I believe the phone company would have a fit if they knew you connected equipment to their network without a CSU on it. They're very big on standards-compliance and stuff like that. Sometime look into their rules and regs about colocating equipment inside one of their CO's... it's very very strict. The last thing you say is why I am asking this question. The compliance doesn't realy bother me that much, what I am afraid is if the provider notices this and decides to cut it because of that. Whether they would actually cut you off or not probably depends on A) if they find out about it, and B) whoever finds out about it is a strict play-by-the-rules kinda guy and/or has a grudge against you or is having a bad day. A lot of telco employees tend to look the other way... especially if it's not their job to care about it. But... they would have every right to terminate the service if you don't have proper equipment connected to their network. So if they DID decide to terminate it, they would legally have the right to do so, and you would have no recourse other than possibly to purchase the correct equipment and maybe pay a reconnect fee to get service turned back on, which may take days/weeks/whatever time frame to do so. So it's basically a question of, can you afford the downtime caused by them shutting you off if/when they ever found out and/or cared enough to follow the rules. The other possibility, considering it is working for you now, is that there IS a CSU built in but they don't want to tell you... maybe for example because it's not FCC certified... or so that they can charge you for an external CSU. -- Nick ___ --Bandwidth and Colocation provided by Easynews.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Slightly OT:CSU on Digium cards, and it's requirement
Quoting C F [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Do the Digium cards have a built in CSU? Is a CSU an FCC requirement? or just a carrier requirement? if you expect things to work you need one regardless of regulations, yes the digium cards have it built in, as do most modern t1 cards. if the T1 terminates in something that looks like a scsi connector you have an hssi interface most likely, if it terminates in an rj45, especially if it has status lights, you most likely have yourself a csu built in, sometimes you'll have a db15 instead of the rj45 depending on the country it was designed for but it still works the same if you just get a passive adapter to get to the connector type you need (or make one, t1 speed is a 1/8th of the slowest ethernet so construction technique is not too critical if you ever made an ethernet cable) coming in from the raw copper pair this is what needs to be there : telco supplied pairgain box which is normally an HDSL modem that gets you from a type of dsl circuit to a 2 pair T1 / DS1 circuit (don't confuse DSL and DS ONE in this sentence) that is the actual demarcation point. then comes your csu/(dsu) This is the point where remote loopback tests can be done without actually talking to the guts of your hardware, telco can normally do it to their box as well but when they do a line test they loop to your csu normally. next comes a serial interface of some sort, in a more modern setup its indivisible from the csu, in the old days you had a physical synchronous serial cable between running at t1 clock speed. Where its separate the serial port is also known as an hssi connection or high speed serial interface. So without the csu in the mix converting the t1 channel frame encoding down to the actual serial data, you have no way to talk to the channel. its like saying I have a usb port, do I really need the ethernet dongle in order to plug it into an ethernet jack ? Then again some hardware has an ethernet jack right on it, but it still has all the same ethernet hardware as the dongle in there somewhere even if there is no physical usb path between the pci bus and the ethernet, it still accomplishes the same thing. the csu is sort of like the part of the modem where the start and stop bits are added into the actual data before hitting the actual modem proper where the bits are converted to tones, we don't generally make the distinction on that part of the circuit since the rest is useless without it. TIA ___ --Bandwidth and Colocation provided by Easynews.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users Jon Pounder _/_/_/ _/_/ _/ _/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/ _/ _/_/_/ _/ _/_/ _/_/ _/_/ _/ _/_/ _/_/ _/ _/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/_/_/ Inline Internet Systems Inc. Thorold, Ontario, Canada Tools to Power Your e-Business Solutions www.inline.net www.ihtml.com www.ihtmlmerchant.com www.opayc.com This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. ___ --Bandwidth and Colocation provided by Easynews.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Slightly OT:CSU on Digium cards, and it's requirement
On 6/11/07, Jon Pounder [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Quoting C F [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Do the Digium cards have a built in CSU? Is a CSU an FCC requirement? or just a carrier requirement? if you expect things to work you need one regardless of regulations, yes the digium cards have it built in, as do most modern t1 cards. I disagree with this, I have several T1s that don't use Digium equipment and are directly connecting to T1 cards that DONT have a CSU and work fine. The reason this thing came up was because I was going thru documentation for such a card and it mentioned it's an FCC requirement. if the T1 terminates in something that looks like a scsi connector you have an hssi interface most likely, if it terminates in an rj45, especially if it has status lights, you most likely have yourself a csu built in, sometimes you'll have a db15 instead of the rj45 depending on the country it was designed for but it still works the same if you just get a passive adapter to get to the connector type you need (or make one, t1 speed is a 1/8th of the slowest ethernet so construction technique is not too critical if you ever made an ethernet cable) coming in from the raw copper pair this is what needs to be there : telco supplied pairgain box which is normally an HDSL modem that gets you from a type of dsl circuit to a 2 pair T1 / DS1 circuit (don't confuse DSL and DS ONE in this sentence) that is the actual demarcation point. then comes your csu/(dsu) This is the point where remote loopback tests can be done without actually talking to the guts of your hardware, telco can normally do it to their box as well but when they do a line test they loop to your csu normally. next comes a serial interface of some sort, in a more modern setup its indivisible from the csu, in the old days you had a physical synchronous serial cable between running at t1 clock speed. Where its separate the serial port is also known as an hssi connection or high speed serial interface. So without the csu in the mix converting the t1 channel frame encoding down to the actual serial data, you have no way to talk to the channel. its like saying I have a usb port, do I really need the ethernet dongle in order to plug it into an ethernet jack ? Then again some hardware has an ethernet jack right on it, but it still has all the same ethernet hardware as the dongle in there somewhere even if there is no physical usb path between the pci bus and the ethernet, it still accomplishes the same thing. the csu is sort of like the part of the modem where the start and stop bits are added into the actual data before hitting the actual modem proper where the bits are converted to tones, we don't generally make the distinction on that part of the circuit since the rest is useless without it. That specific T1/PRI card I'm talking about has an JR45 connector and does not have a built in CSU. Which brings me back to the second part of my original question, is it required by law. Thank you TIA ___ --Bandwidth and Colocation provided by Easynews.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users Jon Pounder _/_/_/ _/_/ _/ _/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/ _/ _/_/_/ _/ _/_/ _/_/ _/_/ _/ _/_/ _/_/ _/ _/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/_/_/ Inline Internet Systems Inc. Thorold, Ontario, Canada Tools to Power Your e-Business Solutions www.inline.net www.ihtml.com www.ihtmlmerchant.com www.opayc.com This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. ___ --Bandwidth and Colocation provided by Easynews.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users ___ --Bandwidth and Colocation provided by Easynews.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Slightly OT:CSU on Digium cards, and it's requirement
On Mon, 11 Jun 2007, C F wrote: I disagree with this, I have several T1s that don't use Digium equipment and are directly connecting to T1 cards that DONT have a CSU and work fine. The reason this thing came up was because I was going thru documentation for such a card and it mentioned it's an FCC requirement. That's not possible, unless the handoff you're getting is not actually T1. However, the card almost certainly has a very seamless, inline/onboard CSU of which you aren't even aware of. -- Alex Balashov Evariste Systems Web: http://www.evaristesys.com/ Tel: +1-678-954-0670 Direct : +1-678-954-0671 ___ --Bandwidth and Colocation provided by Easynews.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
