Re: The creation of complex maps
Re: The creation of complex maps I @15. Im programing in c# URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/490600/#p490600 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: The creation of complex maps
2020-01-04
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Developers room : Rastislav Kiss via Audiogames-reflector
Re: The creation of complex maps Hi,@14: why not, it's a matter of few lines in simple form.What is your programming language?Best regardsRastislav URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/490577/#p490577 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: The creation of complex maps
Re: The creation of complex maps @12. Can you make some example code for your explanations? I want to use this metod, but im not understanding soo much. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/490574/#p490574 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: The creation of complex maps
Re: The creation of complex maps @10Depends. A tool like BrushTone is more or less a Raster paint tool, which uses grid based pixel drawing, what would probably work best for that would be something like a Vector Art Tool like Inkscape, which uses 2D polygons. Which isn't to say I haven't thought about it, part of the work on a new tool included a 3D modelling component, but I haven't had much time lately to work on much of anything. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/490311/#p490311 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: The creation of complex maps
2020-01-02
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Developers room : Rastislav Kiss via Audiogames-reflector
Re: The creation of complex maps Hi,-@10: I do them by adding another type of region. In my map system for Eurofly, there are thus RegularRegions, those are just normal rectangles, and IrregularRegions, what can be any 2d area defined by 4 points.To verify, whether a point is in a IrregularRegion, I perform basically two steps:1. check, if it's inside a rectangle defined by minimal and maximal area coordinates. There is a mathematical term for such position, like when you have a triangle inside a circle in such a way, that every its vertex is touching the circle, but I don't know what is the english equivalent of this.This step is useful, because verifying a rectangle is easy operation requiring just 4 simple conditions, which if not satisfied, make sure that the point isn't even in the true area of the region, preventing heavier computations from being performed extensively.2. If first condition is met, calculate angle between two opposite points of the area and the input point.If resulting angles are in range of angles between those opposite points and the two other points, which are precomputed while adding the region to the map, the input point must be in the region, regardless of its exact shape.By adding various types of regions, you can add even more kinds of objects, even 3D, like circles, cilinders, cars, bicycles etc. Checking first for the bounding rectangle, or a block in 3D space, as they're lightweight for computing and if the point is inside, checking the more detailed shape.As for why I didn't go with polygons, well, that's simply because I didn't know they existed. Or better said, I knew of course that there are polygons, but not that they were used for this purpose. I know that triangles are quite popular in 3D modelling, but I never saw polygons in this place.That of course doesn't mean they aren't used, it's just my lack of research on this topic.Problem with triangles or polygons is, that in Audiogames, you infact hardly can tell difference between simple object and complex object, because you can't see them.So when I was faced with creating a map engine, I just took the simple concept used by many current audiogames, extended it somewhat by more advanced math and faster code to allow more complex things like IrregularRegions to be used, and the result was satisfactory.Only place where we met polygons were original openstreet maps, which use them to define objects. To make them easier to read and work with, we converted them to a slightly modified regions based map created specifically for this purpose.Best regardsRastislav URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/490190/#p490190 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: The creation of complex maps
Re: The creation of complex maps There are practically no audio games with polygons. Really, I can't think' of any that use slopes, even with the "make a rectangle and treat it like a right triangle" trick. I try to do this, but I'm bad at making games people like to play.I am not aware of any accessible editors for mainstream formats. I've made game-specific editors (Swamp, Sengoku Jidai, Swamp Platformer), and a 3d editor for my 3d BGT library. (That last one does have polygons, though not the normal way. I'm sure there's a term for how they're used there, but I don't know it.)All of those are BGT, though, and not really worth porting because whatever you'd be porting them to has better libraries already available. Maybe the Swamp Platformer's editor could be generalized for Pygame.rect, or similar? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/490176/#p490176 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: The creation of complex maps
Re: The creation of complex maps @Rastislav, your approach for compressing maps sounds interesting. How do you do slanted shapes? I see maybe a minor savings in size from polygons, but polygons are still more standard. For example, a rectangle with a chunk taken out of one corner would be 10 numbers in your block method, but only 12 numbers in a polygon. Maybe if you load hundreds of thousands of complex shapes will you see any savings.Here is the contrast between the two:block method:[[1,1,4,4,1],[1,4,10,10,1]]Polygon:[[1,1], [4,1], [4,4],[10,4], [10,10], [1,10]]@magurp244, do you think you could have an option for creating polygons and exporting them as JSON with attributes? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/490157/#p490157 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: The creation of complex maps
Re: The creation of complex maps
The default image for brushtone is 64 by 64 black, with the cursor in the lower left corner. You pick a color by pressing one of the number keys, default is red, and use the arrow keys to move the cursor around the canvas, pressing space to change the color of the pixel under the cursor to the currently selected color, IE: red. You can customize colors by pressing and holding the number keys, or even grab a color straight from the canvas, or use a variety of different tools, there's more in the documentation which is included both in BrushTone and in a text file that comes with it.Each pixel is represented as a red, green, and blue value ranging from 0 to 255, so if you only want to use 0 to 255, you can just use varying shades of the color red. This kind of technically makes image arrays 3D, even if they present as 2D images, but thats not particularly relevant here. For parsing the array data you'll need a library that can load the image, such as PIL or Pygame, in this case I used Pyglet, and numpy for rearranging the data into a proper array.import pyglet
import numpy
#load image
tmp = pyglet.image.load('example2.png')
#get raw image data
rawimage = tmp.get_image_data()
pixels = rawimage.get_data('RGB',rawimage.width*3)
#convert the data string to an integer
rgb = numpy.fromstring(pixels,dtype='uint8')
#reshape the 1D array to match the images dimensions
rgb = numpy.reshape(rgb, (tmp.height,tmp.width,3))
#remove the green and blue channels
rgb = rgb[::,::,:1]
#reshape the array again to have a straight 2D array
rgb = numpy.reshape(rgb,(tmp.width,tmp.height))
print(rgb)This will spit out a 2D array matching the dimensions of the image fed into it, with a single value per index. If you have any specific questions about BrushTone and how to use it, feel free to ask.
URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/490115/#p490115
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Re: The creation of complex maps
Re: The creation of complex maps At 7 that would be very useful. I tried brush tone but i didn’t undrstand how to use it URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/490106/#p490106 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: The creation of complex maps
Re: The creation of complex maps When it comes to tile based editors, a particular hack i've mentioned before is to use a standard paint tool for generating images. Maps, at least tile based ones, are typically stored as 2 dimensional arrays with numbers ranging from 0 to whatever to represent particular objects. This is the same structure image data is stored as, so by using a tool like BrushTone, you can paint particular colors which have specific numerical values ranging from 0 to 255 along the "grid" of the image, then load the image into your program or game and parse the image data, slicing away unwanted elements like the green and blue channels to load your map array. I can provide an example image to map parser, if you like. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/490105/#p490105 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: The creation of complex maps
2020-01-01
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Developers room : Rastislav Kiss via Audiogames-reflector
Re: The creation of complex maps Hi,hmm, am I onlyone here, who didn't play Manamon? Anyway, there are basically two things you need to solve when coding maps in your game, those are map's internal representation and map's generation.The latter is irrelevant of course, if you make maps manually.I have described one very good and practical method in parallel thread:https://forum.audiogames.net/topic/3201 … er-with-c/, posts 2 and 4, which is basically the same as in ultraPower, Sbyw or Stw. But it's suitable primarily for fps games, you perhaps won't make a mud map with it and it's not suitable even for some spatial games like Blindcraft or Sound RTS, which have their own special requirements.Thus without knowing the goal, I can't tell anything more specific.For generating terrain, you usually write algorithms to do this.For example, maze generators are their own class of algorithms, which you can use to generate mazes in your game.One way to do this is as follows:1. Make a matrix of tiles, say 11 x 11. We'll recognize three types of tiles - empty tiles, base tiles (used for the algorithm), and wall tiles.2. Turn border tiles into walls.3. Prepare a net of base tiles. You can start on tile 2 x 2 (counted from zero), and continue in intervals of two, i.e. 4 x 2, 6 x 2, 8 x 2, 2 x 4, 4 x 4, 6 x 4, 8 x 4, 2 x 6 etc.4. loop while there are basetiles on the map4.1 Choose a random base tile from the map.4.2 You can lead a wall from this point in 4 directions, select one randomly.4.3 Make a continuous wall in that direction, until you reach an already existing wall. this is the reason why border the area first, otherwise you could end up out of index. If you go through a base tile, turn it into wall too, including theone which you selected in step 4.1.A maze like this has few nice properties:* From each free point a to each free point b in the maze, exactly one possible path exists. No more, no less.* Border tiles with odd coordinates will always be free, you can place exits there and be sure, that they'll be accessible.* Distances between base tiles are also bases for future corridors. If you want to specify how wide they should be, all you need to do is to change this distance.* If you want to make the maze easier, all you need to do is to turn some basepoints into walls before the main loop. That will create isolated islands of walls, making thus more possible paths between tiles.Source (Czech):https://www.itnetwork.cz/navrh/algoritm … o-bludisteThis is of course just one way to do it, suitable especially in situations, where you need to make a true maze. If you look around on the net, you'll surely find other possible approaches, which could for example give you an option to include rooms, various types of doors, or a multidimensional layout with stairs, giving you rather some kind of building generator than a maze generator.Another level are coherent noises, such as perlin noise or simplex noise, which is quite widely used in Minecraft for example to generate very natively looking terrains. I can tell from my own experience, that they're really beautiful, whole game mechanics is very nice and amazing, with many aspects controlled by those mathematic formulas.I have implemented them to some degree in Blindcraft. There are two quite big caveats which you need to deal with, if you want to use them:1. You need some mathematic basics, if you want to understand at least a bit, how they work,2. They are quite hard to manage, as you can't see, what have you created.For me, the problem number 2 was very hard to pass. It's hard to create something nice, if you can't even tell, what have you actually created.I think microcapsle paper would help a lot here. I was once checking haptic maps printed on it and they had amazing level of accuracy. If I was able to print my own maps there, may be the development would be much easier.Although I don't have neither the paper nor a printer, so it's out of question for now. Best regardsRastislav URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/490004/#p490004 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: The creation of complex maps
2020-01-01
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Developers room : Rastislav Kiss via Audiogames-reflector
Re: The creation of complex maps Hi,hmm, am I onlyone here, who didn't play Manamon? Anyway, there are basically two things you need to solve when coding maps in your game, those are map's internal representation and map's generation.The latter is irrelevant of course, if you make maps manually.I have described one very good and practical method in parallel thread:https://forum.audiogames.net/topic/3201 … er-with-c/, posts 2 and 4, which is basically the same as in ultraPower, Sbyw or Stw. But it's suitable primarily for fps games, you perhaps won't make a mud map with it and it's not suitable even for some spatial games like Blindcraft or Sound RTS, which have their own special requirements.Thus without knowing the goal, I can't tell anything more specific.For generating terrain, you usually write algorithms to do this.For example, maze generators are their own class of algorithms, which you can use to generate mazes in your game.One way to do this is as follows:1. Make a matrix of tiles, say 11 x 11. We'll recognize three types of tiles - empty tiles, base tiles (used for the algorithm), and wall tiles.2. Turn border tiles into walls.3. Prepare a net of base tiles. You can start on tile 2 x 2 (counted from zero), and continue in intervals of two, i.e. 4 x 2, 6 x 2, 8 x 2, 2 x 4, 4 x 4, 6 x 4, 8 x 4, 2 x 6 etc.4. loop while there are basetiles on the map4.1 Choose a random base tile from the map.4.2 You can lead a wall from this point in 4 directions, select one randomly.4.3 Make a continuous wall in that direction, until you reach an already existing wall. this is the reason why border the area first, otherwise you could end up out of index. If you go through a base tile, turn it into wall too, including theone which you selected in step 4.1.A maze like this has few nice properties:* From each free point a to each free point b in the maze, exactly one possible path exists. No more, no less.* Border tiles with odd coordinates will always be free, you can place exits there and be sure, that they'll be accessible.* Distances between base tiles are also bases for future corridors. If you want to specify how wide they should be, all you need to do is to change this distance.* If you want to make the maze easier, all you need to do is to turn some basepoints into walls before the main loop. That will create isolated islands of walls, making thus more possible paths between tiles.Source (Czech):https://www.itnetwork.cz/navrh/algoritm … o-bludisteThis is of course just one way to do it, suitable especially in situations, where you need to make a true maze. If you look around on the net, you'll surely find other possible approaches, which could for example give you an option to include rooms, various types of doors, or a multidimensional layout with stairs, giving you rather some kind of building generator than a maze generator.Another level are coherent noises, such as perlin noise or simplex noise, which is quite widely used in Minecraft for example to generate very natively looking terrains. I can tell from my own experience, that they're really beautiful, whole game mechanics is very nice and amazing, with many aspects controlled by those mathematic formulas.I have implemented them to some degree in Blindcraft. There are two quite big caveats which you need to deal with, if you want to use them:1. You need some mathematic basics, if you want to understand at least a bit, how they work,2. They are quite hard to manage, as you can't see, what have you created.For me, the problem number 2 was very hard to pass. It's hard to create something nice, if you can't even tell, what have you actually created.I think microcapsle paper would help a lot here. I was once checking haptic maps printed on it and they had amazing level of accuracy. If I was able to print my own maps there, may be the development would be much easier.Although I haven't neither the paper nor a printer, so it's out of question for now. Best regardsRastislav URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/490004/#p490004 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: The creation of complex maps
Re: The creation of complex maps What would be your feature list for a map creation tool?Maps are literally polygons with a collision detection algorithm for the user. JSON is a common output format for maps, normally Geojson. You can currently write JSON by hand, but it is rather tedious. It helps if you have a viewer that can parse your data so you can see what you have written.@CAE_Jones, what editors do you recommend that work with a screen reader? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/489942/#p489942 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: The creation of complex maps
Re: The creation of complex maps Part of it is being able to imagine complex maps in the first place.I've tried a variety of techniques. I'm not sure that one is better than the other, but they can have advantages or disadvantages in terms of things like speed or memory usage.The most basic way? Text. One of the first things I did when I got a Perkins Brailler at home was to make maps for games. For all intents and purposes, it's indistinguishable from tile-based maps, except you can open it in a text editor and read it. Imo, this is the closest we get to just drawing maps in MSPaint, if you ignore the additional tools in MSPaint (but see below). Braille displays are particularly helpful for this one. Code everything by hand. I've done a few complex areas this way, but it's extraordinarily tedious, and the result is either a complete set of relatively simple maps, one or two complex maps, or the whole thing collapsing because I don't have any Ritalin. If you are extremely conscientious, good at imagining shapes based on numbers, and translating complex ideas for maps into said numbers, you might try this.Procedurally generate things. See DLE and Sengoku Jidai for how that tends to turn out when I do it. Maze generators are codable (what is the license on Philip Bennefall's Amaze, anyway?), but it takes tweaking and such to get them reliably good enough for deployment. (AKA, Sengoku Jidai's castles would be more interesting (and harder to navigate) if they were really 4 castles stuck together).Editors. Scenegraphs are a pain to work with on the code side. If you have an editor that is indistinguishable from any arbitrary object-based map editor, though, that matters much less. The trouble is, if your map system is the least bit unique, you need an editor that works with that. Either you find standard formats, or you build it from scratch. I doubt most sighted devs code maps by hand, other than maybe a querky bit here and there, when they can use editors instead.The first and the last both have the side-effect that you can view the map as you're working on it.If the design part is the hardest, there are probably decent articles to be found via Google, or videos via Youtube, but I suspect it will be troublesome to sort out those which can be understood nonvisually from those which cannot. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/489870/#p489870 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: The creation of complex maps
Re: The creation of complex maps Part of it is being able to imagine complex maps in the first place.I've tried a variety of techniques. I'm not sure that one is better than the other, but they can have advantages or disadvantages in terms of things like speed or memory usage.The most basic way? Text. One of the first things I did when I got a Perkins Brailler at home was to make maps for games. For all intents and purposes, it's indistinguishable from tile-based maps, except you can open it in a text editor and read it. Imo, this is the closest we get to just drawing maps in MSPaint, if you ignore the additional tools in MSPaint (but see below).Code everything by hand. I've done a few complex areas this way, but it's extraordinarily tedious, and the result is either a complete set of relatively simple maps, one or two complex maps, or the whole thing collapsing because I don't have any Ritalin. If you are extremely conscientious, good at imagining shapes based on numbers, and translating complex ideas for maps into said numbers, you might try this.Procedurally generate things. See DLE and Sengoku Jidai for how that tends to turn out when I do it. Maze generators are codable (what is the license on Philip Bennefall's Amaze, anyway?), but it takes tweaking and such to get them reliably good enough for deployment. (AKA, Sengoku Jidai's castles would be more interesting (and harder to navigate) if they were really 4 castles stuck together).Editors. Scenegraphs are a pain to work with on the code side. If you have an editor that is indistinguishable from any arbitrary object-based map editor, though, that matters much less. The trouble is, if your map system is the least bit unique, you need an editor that works with that. Either you find standard formats, or you build it from scratch. I doubt most sighted devs code maps by hand, other than maybe a querky bit here and there, when they can use editors instead.The first and the last both have the side-effect that you can view the map as you're working on it.If the design part is the hardest, there are probably decent articles to be found via Google, or videos via Youtube, but I suspect it will be troublesome to sort out those which can be understood nonvisually from those which cannot. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/489870/#p489870 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: The creation of complex maps
Re: The creation of complex maps That’s the thing. I want to know how they are created. I understand how to create a basic map but I don’t know how to do more than add random obstacles and use the ex and Y coordinates. I don’t know how to create stuff like mazes and all that, that’s what I was looking for URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/489848/#p489848 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: The creation of complex maps
Re: The creation of complex maps Okay? What do you want us to do about it? What is your issue? Where are you stuck on? Why did you post this if you didn't need help? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/489847/#p489847 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
The creation of complex maps
The creation of complex maps So I have been thinking about this for a while. I don’t know how I would go about creating complex maps like what Manamon has for example. That has been something I have been thinking about But have never found the answer to URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/489838/#p489838 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
