Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale It might actually be possible, if you consider that out-of-band remote management technology is useful to corporations. You could imagine your firmware having an interface over the network you could control with another computer or app. That would certainly be an improvement over the nothing we have now (it's actually still one of the best features of the Mac, that the firmware interface is very limited and basically amounts to the boot screen, which is a big reason for me to keep them). Intel's AMT, aside from the potential vulnerabilities, could be a starting point for us, but is generally only found in professional workstation models and servers rather than typical consumer gear. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=313469#p313469 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale Draq, bios may never be made completely accessible. It is as low-level as a computer gets, the literal firmware inside the machine. The only way this could happen is if they actually made sound support, or had beeps from pc speakers along with menu guides to follow. That would have to be done for every model, and that would be near impossible. It's not quite like android custom recoveries, because bios is never even open source. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=313381#p313381 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale I still wish there was an accessible way to change BIOS settings. BIOS is loaded before anything else though, so no screen reader is going to be able to do that to my knowledge.Does Narrator work in safe mode yet? Or is that the recovery thing I keep hearing about? I remember Window Eyes started working in safe mode some time ago. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=313380#p313380 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale Let's compare like for like, shall we? Apache is a sponsored project.But yes, point very well taken. I love FLOSS--use it all the time on servers--but I understand the reluctance of companies to use something for which they feel their is inadequate support. FLOSS projects should be sponsored financially, and thereby have the backing required for their authors to carry on carrying on, without endangering the project. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=313342#p313342 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale Not just sceenreaders though that could be spyware/keyloggers.Here:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9g9tBIlfdINAnd that's a company that's big enough to hide it. So, paranoia? No, but it definitely shows that if a company wanted to they'd hide it in a dirver or update and nobody'd notice, I mean, Sony rootkit for instance too, or Starforce 'DRM' too, or the CiH virus that shipped with the demo for the SiN game in 1998.All examples of malicious code being hidden away in legit programs. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=313305#p313305 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale I think it's pretty much near completion. Perhaps we'll see it in the next version. A lot of stuff gets included in due time, profiles .for example. As for narrator, businesses would never touch narrator. The only way that would happen is if it could be scripted, and it's never been scriptable. As for open source vs closed source, I just wanna bring one thing up from the article about the end to window eyes that any open-minded, non-textbook IT would agree on, and which makes business's opensource paranoia twisted. Screen readers can potentially be the most powerful spyware. True, FS probably wouldn't get into data mining unless they wanted their reputation crushed, but it's within anyone's power when it comes to a closed source screenreaders All they'd have to do is add in some lines of code to send all the text it throws at you over to a server. Fs could then eat all your personal data. Again I doubt they! would actually do this, but if it 's closed source, you wouldn't even notice because a security scan wouldn't come back positive. Hell, given their corporate status, if a company were to actually do this, they could probably pay antivirus companies to refrain from adding it to their database. With open source software, you'd be able to scan the code yourself and know that, nvda for example, definitely is not data mining. Oh and side note, I don't wanna hear any open source paranoia bullshit from any corporation that uses an Apache web server. You know what I mean. Lol! For those who don't know, Apache is, well duh, open source in and of itself. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=313243#p313243 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale Just tried obj pad. Huge improvement on the default method. Unless there are issues with it that haven't been ironed out yet, I don't see why it should still be languishing on the addons page. Should be part of the program. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=313238#p313238 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale As far as on-board screen readers are concerned, it's about time MS got one to work during the setup of the operating system. Buying a new PC, then having to wait for a sighted person to come help you set it up really bugs me. Or having to have sighted help to perform a recovery, or even just the restore to last known good state message that sometimes comes up during boot up if your system has gone a bit screwy. Voiceover works during set up, so why not windows narrator? A tech support guy once told me it wouldn't be that straight forward to have a narrator working before the OS is fully installed, but Apple seems to have managed it okay. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=313181#p313181 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale @Chris, I disagree. Brian Hartgen, who develops many JAWS scripts, develops his scripts--as you say--to increase access to inaccessible applications; but he also develops scripts to make it possible to perform tasks more quickly or easily than without such scripts.@Harley B, what do you mean exactly? URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=313156#p313156 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale How'd you rate JAWS? URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=313147#p313147 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale If companies refuse to use open-source software like NVDA (which has no malware or spyware and source code that anyone with the technical knowledge could review and verify this statement), how about Narrator? It's built into the operating system and is constantly improving. If I'm not mistaken, Microsoft also offers free technical support for the product as well. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=313134#p313134 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale If companies are so hell-bent on not using open source software like NVDA (which has no malware or spyware and source code that anyone with the technical knowledge could review it and verify this statement), how about Narrator? It's built into the operating system and is constantly improving. If I'm not mistaken, Microsoft also offers free technical support for the product as well. Maybe I've been drinking the Apple Kool-Aid too much, but I really believe this insanely overpriced access to computers needs to stop! People say JAWS scripts over and over, but I get so sick and tired of that. We wouldn't need scripts and a ridiculously overpriced piece of software if everyone would just code their applications properly. aArrrgh! URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=313134#p313134 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale Well, to be fair, not everyone likes Python either. NVDA is a great community project, but I think the curve for mere mortals is still pretty steep if you actually want to improve it yourself. Ultimately, I think this is where GW got it absolutely right first time, by using COM as the interface, for which any programming language could be used to script it. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=313115#p313115 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale Obj Pad really is a great innovation. I think that if more people tried it, they would see that object nav doesn't have to be so hard. Then again, when I began using NVDA, Obj Pad didn't exist, so I endured the process of learning object nav, and I agree that it is a bit clunky and unintuitive, especially for the novice user.I've said it before, and I'll say it again. What NVDA may lack in out of the box functionality, it makes up for in its sense of community. People who see a need for access to an application, or a feature that should be added, will basically work for free, only receiving recognition for the fruits of their labor, and they're content with that. I would be willing to bet that there are also a lot more developers out there who make add-ons for their own personal use, or for their friends. We never know about them, though, because some are put off by the process of submitting an add-on, from everything I've read on the NVDA mail ing list. It could also be that they don't have the best internet access, either, since many people in developing countries use NVDA because it's free. So, we really shouldn't discount the power of what can be done with add-ons, considering that Python is a well-known programming language which has many, many other uses besides extending the functionality of NVDA. If anything, I honestly don't understand why JAWS scripts are considered the holy grail, while NVDA gets crapped on for being open source, while its main functionality is built upon a language that every programmer has heard of. But that's beside the point. I don't discount the fact that JAWS scripts do have their own powerful uses, although, as I'm thinking about this, I understand that businesses are known for using proprietary software in all aspects of their operations, so I guess it actually makes sense that JAWS scripts provide a sense of comfort to them. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=313109#p313109 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale Flackers, we may be able to solve the numpad problem by downloading the objpad nvda addon. This, in my opinion at least, is more powerful than even Jaws arrowing around. Ctrl=nvda+tab changes the behavior of the arrow keys. It's like quicknav on the mac in a sense. What we have is object nav mode, which basically just makes the arrow keys do the numpad commands, aka, down arrow to go inside an object, up to get out of it, left and right to move, you name it. Then there's scan mode, which basically scans the entire windows with the arrow keys. Then we have web mode which works like the roter on ios or mac. Up and down arrows change navigation granularity, and right and left arrows move by the navigation setting. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=312953#p312953 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale Interesting thread. I'd love to ditch the ludicrously over-priced jaws in favour of NVDA, especially as Jaws has been going downhill lately in terms of releasing versions that add nothing useful to the previous one, and are just released to make money. Since version 14, Jaws has been a hell of a lot buggier than it ever was before. My trouble is I understand the jaws scripting language, but can't even get started with the one NVDA uses. And I've made my favourite music VST plugins accessible using jaws scripts, and really couldn't face rewriting all those tens of thousands of lines in NVDA, so I'm tied to jaws.I have to say the Jaws' basics of scripting manual is a genius little piece of tutorial writing. I knew nothing at all about scripting before reading it, but afterwards, I could make software almost completely accessible, even stuff that was all just images jaws couldn't read in any way. People champion NVDA on it being for the power user, but if it ever truly wants to knock jaws out of the ring, it has to appeal more to the simple user because that's what most people are. And for me at least, it has to find a simpler way of reading stuff where the pc focus can't go. The jaws cursor: you just turn it on and arrow around, what could be easier than that? Those NVDA numpad commands seem insanely over-complex to me. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=312936#p312936 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale Interesting thread. I'd love to ditch the ludicrously over-priced jaws in favour of NVDA, especially as Jaws has been going downhill lately in terms of releasing versions that add nothing useful to the previous one, and are just released to make money. Since version 14, Jaws has been a hell of a lot buggier than it ever was before. My trouble is I understand the jaws scripting language, but can't even get started with the one NVDA uses. And I've made my favourite music VST plugins accessible using jaws scripts, and really couldn't face rewriting all those tens of thousands of lines in NVDA, so I'm tied to jaws.I have to say the Jaws' basics of scripting manual is a genius little piece of tutorial writing. I knew nothing at all about scripting before reading it, but afterwards, I could make software almost completely accessible, even stuff that was entirely bitmap images. People champion NVDA on it being for the power user, but if it ever truly w ants to knock jaws out of the ring, it has to appeal more to the simple user because that's what most people are. And for me at least, it has to find a simpler way of reading stuff where the pc focus can't go. The jaws cursor: you just turn it on and arrow around, what could be easier than that? Those NVDA numpad commands seem insanely over-complex to me. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=312936#p312936 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale If I"m not mistaken, both Nv Access guys are completely blind. That's not to say that some low vision and sighted folks in the community couldn't help with something like that, though. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=312913#p312913 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale If screen magnification should be intregrated in NVDA, and more options regardless of any level of discapacity should be integrated, it will compite with SuperNovaAccess Suite (I don't know but it was the previous name of it), thoes it will be the first free, open source access suite (as I call) for anybody. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=312886#p312886 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale Personally, I am also a great fan of NVDA. I still use JAWS more frequently, however, because I don't really like the way NVDA is displaying things on the braille display. In my opinion, they display a little too much. For a beginner, it might be a good idea to display a little more to actually get started, but if there's a way to change the way things are displayed by NVDA on the braille display, I would highly appreciate it.I considered updating my current JAWS license from 13 to the latest version, but before I start complaining about things old JAWS versions are not capable of, I first try it with NVDA, which usually works just fine.And "two guys in a garage"??? Gosh, they should first think about what they're saying! Well, I'll keep my fingers crossed for those "two guys in the garage", there is a huge community stand ing behind them; maybe VFO should keep that in mind before talking about a broken-down garage! URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=312750#p312750 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale Personally, I am also a great fan of NVDA. I still use JAWS more frequently, however, because I don't really like the way NVDA is displaying things on the braille display. In my opinion, they display a little too much. For a beginner, it might be a good idea to display a little more to actually get started, but if there's a way to change the way things are displayed by NVDA on the braille display, I would highly appreciate it.I considered updating my current JAWS license from 13 to the latest version, but before I start complaining about things old JAWS versions are not capable of, I first try it with NVDA, which usually works just fine. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=312750#p312750 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale Also the talking mouse. I was told that NVDA had that years before FS put it in JAWS.I'm curious about how NVDA's handling things related to Windows 10 that FS says they're having to work with Microsoft to get to work in JAWS though. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=312716#p312716 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale My hope is that he didn't say that, since they themselves have coppied a few features from NVDA; soundcard switching, for instance. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=312691#p312691 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale @FamilyMario, He may have made that comment, or it may have been somebody that had the same name or was impersonating him. At this point, though, the safest thought is to just assume that whoever made that comment was a troll. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=312687#p312687 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale Yes, well, about that ... I'm struggling to see how NVDA Remote can seriously compare at all well to a solution like the one FS provides, which hooks the RDP functionality in the OS or in Citrix. As things stand JAWS includes all the docs and tools for admins to set up both sides (server and client) of that exchange, and do it securely, too.Then again, it's NVDA that's making it to the cloud, and not JAWS. So really ubiquity of FLOSS is its own compelling argument. It's the same with Linux, as a whole--why do you think it rules the cloud, and not Windows? URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=312679#p312679 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale Well, if I remember correctly, since NVDA Remote was the big thing, there was a comment by Dan Clark from Freedom Scientific, that read, "Copycats, not leaders. That's all I've got to say". URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=312674#p312674 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale really? in what ways has FS bashed nv-access? examples? URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=312669#p312669 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale if someone made addons that let NVDA do hand holding and network installs over a lan, this may be then able to put VFO out of business with jaws. also ability to do grade2 input, skim reading and skim reading rules along with other powerful jaws features which could be useful if duplicated into NVDA. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=312668#p312668 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale Definitely from the corporate playbook. It's why accessibility and litigiousness should never be a thing that coexists. If you look at some of the fights between companies actively using twitter mostly phone carriers, they can get pretty brutal. It's all for dominance. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=312465#p312465 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale Those kinds of tactics seem to come straight from a corporate playbook, kind of tiresome at this point. I'm not sure how I feel about a slush fund to maintain and create open source projects though, then again there's Ubuntu. What sort of packages have disappeared when their maintainers left though? Was/is the source for those packages available anywhere? URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=312464#p312464 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale that comment by FS in my opinion just shows how not proffessional they are. NVDA is translated in over 50 languages and how many does jaws have? That's just one advantage of open source there. Yes, two guys in a garage, we love you! URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=312455#p312455 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale NV Access may not bash, but a small group of users of their products certainly do. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=312454#p312454 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale You're thinking of Apple, Draq. That I know for sure started in a garage. Microsoft? Maybe. The ironic thing is that starting up in the garage is starting to become the norm for pretty successful new companies, so it's funny how Fs thinks that that's a demeaning term, because it's really not if you think about it. Still, Fs is notorious for bashing nv access and that needs to stop. Nv Access doesn't bash, so Fw shouldn't either, commercial market or not. Starting to remind me of the arguments you see between phone carrier ceo's online. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=312451#p312451 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale Didn't Microsoft start in a garage? Lol. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=312446#p312446 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale congrads to the two guys in the garage! We love you! URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=312432#p312432 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale I completely agree with the linked article. The days of commercial proprietary screen readers are numbered. Did someone from VFO really say "two guys in a garage"? [[wow]]! URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=312431#p312431 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale Chris Hofstader just posted a blog about this issue.http://chrishofstader.com/nvda-now-more-than-ever/NVDA: Now More Than Ever!May 23, 2017 by Chris Hofstader3 CommentsEpigram“All the power is in the hands,Of the people rich enough to buy it,While we walk the streets,Too chicken to even try it,” The Clash.IntroductionRegular readers of this blog and of BlindConfidential (its predecessor) already know that when it comes to Windows screen readers, I am an enthusiastic supporter of NVDA and NVAccess .Recent events in the news of the blind world have moved NVDA from being an excellent screen reader used by more than 20% of the blind people who run Windowsinto the single most important piece of technology used by our community.This article will explore the VFO acquisition of The Paciello Group (TPG) as well as its decision to end the life of its Window-Eyes product. It will also explain why Free, Libre Open Source Software (FLOSS) is the only way we as blind people can control our own destinies, ensure ourprivacy and be certain that we have a screen reader that will not disappear overnight.If you’re unfamiliar with the word “FLOSS” (spelled in all caps), it stands for Free Libre Open Source Software. When Richard Stallman started this movement he used the term “free software” which some people find confusing as “free” in the English language can mean either “at no cost tothe consumer” as in “free beer” or it could mean “at liberty” as in “Lincoln freed the slaves.” Others started calling this type of software “open source”but that ignores the other aspects of the philosophy so another set of people started using the word “libre” instead of “free” or “open source.” I startedusing FLOSS as it’s a compromise position and generates fewer questions about what I mean. If you’re interested in learning more about the philosophy behindthis movement, I recommend taking a look at the “Free Software Foundation web site as that’s where it all began.PrivacyOne of the best kept secrets in the blindness world and an issue people have pressured me to not report for many years now is that a screen reader is ahighly effective piece of spyware. In brief, a screen reader monitors all activities on a computer and reports the information back to the user in speechand/or braille. Any software engineer with access to the source code can tweak it a little and also report everything the user does on their computer backto the company that made the screen reader or to any other data gathering system of their choice. Thus, the VFO people can add a spyware function to JAWS,MAGic or ZoomText and there’s no way a user can know if their information, usage habits or anything else they do with a VFO product is being collectedby them and potentially sold or shared with others. In the era of data mining, do you trust Vector Capital,the company who owns the notorious MP3 patent trolls to not also take unethical actions against users of the other products made by companies in theirportfolio?NVDA is free, libre open source software (FLOSS) and anyone with the skills required to read and evaluate the source code can independently verify thatthe NVDA screen reader is not also spying on them. Admittedly, few people have these skills but any number of blindness agencies or a collection thereofcan grab the NVDA source code from GitHub, pay security specialists to review the code and independently verify that it is not doing anything malicious,a freedom we do not have with the VFO products under the proprietary, closed source model under which they sell JAWS,ZoomText and MAGic.The verified version of NVDA can be digitally signed and have a checksum one can test to further ensure that they are running code certified to be safe.Is it illegal to turn JAWS into a piece of spyware? The answer is a loud “No!” Google and Amazon are notorious data miners and their privacy policy permitsthem to gather information about their users, including which apps they use and, in the case of blind users, if they run a screen reader or not. In essence,this means that a company or organization can buy information about screen readers and know that you’re blind before you even apply for a job and couldlead to SPAM discrimination as we blind people are believed (erroneously) to be more expensive to employ than are our sighted peers.Nobody can stop VFO from spying on its users; our entire community can work with NVAccess to ensure that our private information is being kept private.Two Guys In A Garage?Recently, I was told by more than one person who had a private meeting with VFO salespeople at CSUN 2017 that the guys trying to sell JAWS are telling those who buy enterprise site licenses that “NVDA is just two guys working in a garage, if they’re hit bya bus, the whole thing disappears.” This is a bald faced lie, NVDA is more than the amazing Mick Curren and Jamie Teh, it’s an entire community made upof hundreds of people who contribute
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale Chris Hofstader just posted a blog about this issue.http://chrishofstader.com/nvda-now-more-than-ever/ URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=312417#p312417 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale I think another part of the problem is when people look at something and think, "I think this could or should be easier." They then proceed to write software that holds the user's hand, and then everyone forgets how everything works without said software.Research It in JAWS is a prime example of this. I do love the feature myself, but I also know how to look things up without it. If someone is going to be taught to use Research It first, they may not learn how to do the same task without the feature. Using the feature is just faster, so naturally people are going to flock to it for laziness/productivity reasons.Another good example in my opinion is HTML editors. They hold your hand throughout the creation of a website. The person using the software doesn't need to know a thing about HTML. However, if something goes wrong, and things will eventually go wrong, they won't know what to do because they can't read the HTML of their pages. But when you're working on a rather large site and have a deadline to meet, would you really want to have to type it all out by hand? I think not.So, I say people should learn both ways. Teach them the concepts of doing things on their own first, then teach them about the software that can do it for them afterward. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=311932#p311932 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale Actually many Window-Eyes users would claim that about WinEyes, that it is and always was a screen reader for the advanced user who wishes to take command, much as NVDA is today in many ways. In fact this is still reflected in the Window-Eyes to JAWS training material.Basically, JAWS is well-known for hand-holding. It was ever thus. I don't mind luxury product--in fact I'll even grant that such refinement and a commitment to a plush and convenient experience is a worthwhile value add. But there's always been a contingent of users who care enough to have that extra control and lack of hand-holding, and really NVDA is now the only option for that. NVDA, of course, was created for and by blind people who have used other products in the past, and is a respectable alternative. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=311926#p311926 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale Draq, while it is true that Apple device's cost an arm and a leg, you can't directly compare that to a screen reader. !, you are getting what you pay for, if you buy a mac. I can go into why the phones shouldn't be so expensive, but that's a whole other argument altogether. But a mac is a solid, long-lasting computer, and worth the money. And even so, it doesn't matter. Obviously, with mainstream products, everyone pays the same price. Not with screen readers. The way I see it, people need to stop letting computers hold their hand, period. Use nvda. Use Linux. Use the command line/terminal. Buy the training material if you need, or if you're gonna donate more than 30 bucks to nv access at one given time, you might as well buy the book. The money's going entirely to nv access anyway. My point is, use software that really teaches you how to use a computer. Teaches you how to work around issues rather than holding your hand the entire way. With the exception of virtual assistants on smartphones obviously, since those actually have very good use. But I'll just let this raticle explain why I brought this topic up, of all things. And if training is what someone needs, then fine. Make a training program. An nvda addon. We already have Leasey, and if Jaws wasn't so expensive Leasey just might've been a fair investment. IT serves its purpose for the absolute beginner as well as the more advanced, but not highly advanced, of users. Look at what Iplex did with the voiceover tutorial. Stand-alone app, there when you need it but not foisted on you. Android, Voiceover, and Chrome all have built-in tutorials for their screen readers, that won't bug you after you're situated with the phone. But with those, the good thing is that once you're done with the tutorial, you're on your own. At least on Android that's the case . You're left to find the apps that suit you, and to find the app that fixes a problem should one arise. This, my friends, is actually learning how to use a computer. Ok, rant over. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=311897#p311897 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale That's exactly what I was thinking, Turtlepower. The nvda guide, as great as it is, is nothing short of a nice ebook that you read in your book reader of choice. Just fine for anyone who's comfortable with that and doesn't mind reading a manual-style guide that's not exactly a manual, but is at the same time because it's not human narrated. Guess we'd have to get someone in the community with good audio gear to narrate it for free or for a reasonable rate. Better still, sometimes there is just nothing better than an interactive tutorial. It's a kin to learning the keyboard. Why read a manual on where each key is when there are interactive programs like talking typer which, as a sidenote, thanks to ios availability, is now nothing more than the cost of a trip to Starbucks, as opposed to the windows version's 90 dollar cd distribution with a nice high quality a t and t natural voice so that you get what you're paying for. And might I also point out, since you did mention choosing what you need and don't need, APH dose give you that choice. Don't need the natural voice because you've already purchased a voice or two? No problem, purchase the downloadable distribution. But back on topic. An interactive tutorial for the screen readers is the same concept. Just like the typing programs disallow the universal ctrl+alt+del command to execute, that's precisely what an interactive tutorial would do. Voiceover does this same thing. Puts you in a simulated environment that is just like the real thing, but doesn't actually allow anything to go wrong so you can feel free to have a playatround without causing anything catastrophic, if you will. You could say that Jaws once was guilty of providing nothing interactive, but 1 there's Leasey now, and 2 at least the tutorials were very nicely narrated cassettes and daisy books, and, sometimes, Clark would actually demonstrate the topic rather than just r ead it. JAWS and I definitely have a love-hate relationship, mostly hating it ,but I genuinely like the efforts they put into training. As much as I am in complete agreement with the article as it not only is direct and to the point, but it also is exactly the problem we're facing in this day and age summed up completely, I will acknowledge that some folks still need training of some sort, which is why I thought an interactive tutorial would be what people need. And then there's Leasey, and the reason I'm glad there's 2 packages, one for novices and one for, I'd say semi-advanced users. How bout another one that does the behind the scenes scripting to make facebook, Spotify and all others accessible, but doesn't leave you with this closed off, noob-friendly *no offense* interface? It's true that you can kind of let Leasey work in the background, but using it requires that interface, and I feel there should be some level of customization of how much the interface holds your hand. Think of programs like q-seek, which assume you know what you're doing with searches, while still making it easy to search wikipedia, manpages for linux, perform calculations, or laugh your ass off by seeing how urban dictionary defines your name. Lol! But that, is exactly what research-it did, only in a much smaller, much more affordable program at 10 bucks. That's what I would've liked to see in Jaws, optional convenience not at the expense of the user should they not need it. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=311908#p311908 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale Nice article, and thumbs up for a great post. I completely agree that an add-on for NVDA that provided some sort of training module would be a good thing to have. Not everyone learns by listening to a tutorial, many folks are intimidated by documentation, and, even if that is a great help, there's nothing quite like hands on practice to cement the concepts in your head. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=311903#p311903 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale Draq, while it is true that Apple device sod cost an arm and a leg, you can't directly compare that to a screen reader. !, you are getting what you pay for, if you buy a mac. I can go into why the phones shouldn't be so expensive, but that's a while other argument altogether. But a mac is a solid, long-lasting computer, and worth the money. And even so, it doesn't matter. Obviously, with mainsteram products, everyone pays the same price. Not with screen readers. The way I see it, people need to stop letting computers hold their hand, period. Use nvda. Use Linux. Use the command line. Buy the training material if you need, or if you're gonna donate more than 30 bucks to nv access in one igven time, you might as well buy the book. The money's going entirely to nv access anyway. My point is, use software that really teaches you hwo to use a computer. Teaches you how to work around issues rather than holding your hand the entire way. With the exception of virtual assistants on smartphones obviously, since those actually have very good use. But I'll just let this raticle explain why I brought this topic up, of all things. And if training is what someone needs, then fine. Make a training program. An nvda addon. We already have Leasey, and if Jaws wasn't so expensive Leasey just might be a fair investment. IT serves its purpose for the absolute beginner as well as the more advanced, but not highly advanced, of users. Look at what Iplex did with the voiceover tutorial. Stand-alone app, there when you need it but not foisted on you. Android, Voiceover, and Chrome all have built-in tutorials for their screen readers, that won't bug you after you're situated with the phone. But with those, the good thing is that once you're done with the tutorial, you're on your own. At least on Android that's the case. You're left to find the apps that suit you, and to find the app that fixes a problem should one arise. This, my friends, is actually learning how to use a computer. Ok, rant over. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=311897#p311897 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale that's how business works. Find something people need. Find a way to get it to them. Charge for it. If a product is good enough, people can get away with charging as much as they want to some extent. Sometimes high prices are necessary to keep a company going as well. Compared to the rest of the tech market, the VI and blindness market isn't that large. So while I agree that the prices for JAWS and assistive technology in general are a bit insane, it's worth looking at all the potential variables before saying prices are ridiculous and unwarranted. That isn't to say that it's fair to us that we have to purchase such an expensive piece of software to use a Windows machine that a sighted person can use out of the box, but until things change, it is what it is. We can either purchase JAWS if we can afford it/get an agency to purchase it for us, or we can use NVDA.As far as I know, FS and MS are working closely together to make sure JAWS works as well a s possible with Windows 10, and at the same time, MS is improving Narrator quite a bit. If Narrator is improved enough, we may no longer need JAWS or any other screen readers in the future. Note that I say "need." People may still want to purchase JAWS or use NVDA, particularly if they offer enhancements that go beyond what Narrator can do now and in the future. It's all personal preference. If enough people stop using JAWS, FS would most likely discontinue it simply due to the costs associated with maintaining it.As for Apple products, they cost an arm and a leg as it is last I knew. People can either buy a Windows machine and a screen reader unless they plan on using a free one like NVDA, or they can buy an extremely expensive mac that comes with a screen reader built in. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=311797#p311797 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale Remember when I said I wouldn't pay for SMA upgrades unless I had a very good reason? Well, I finally got my license number today and unsurprisingly, I have no SMA upgrades left because the Window-Eyes license wasn't current. When I went to check the price on the website, I found it wasgoing to cost $260 for just two more upgrades. That is ridiculous. I thought it was $200 for the Pro version. Where did the extra $60 come from? [[wow]]! I'm not paying that much for just two upgrades. That is madness. Oh well, at least I can enjoy JAWS 18 for now and eagerly wait for the Narrator improvements later this year. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=311742#p311742 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale Perhaps this is complete naivety, but am I the only one who feels like we should start seeing this as an issue of right rather than privilege? How many years have we had screens and devices with them? How often have you come across a device on a shelf that you can't use because either, A, it has no buttons and depends entirely on its display or, B, the menus are so complex that memorization is highly an unlikely way of navigating the device?Companies have come and gone, some I imagine with the great intent of giving us an equal playing field, while others it is obvious, with the pure intent of creating a centralized system under which they can take as many under their umbrella as possible. I don't believe we should sit around arguing about whether or not FS has empowered users through JAWS; I'm actually thankful to Dan Clark for all the amounts of advice and knowhow provided on every Daisy book and other recordings I've heard, starting w ith tapes that shipped with JAWS 4.51.These recordings provided the basis by which I was able to learn windows and sometimes stay ahead even of sighted individuals. Priar to that, I had some experience with windows 98, and JAWS was there, guiding me through every step of the way. Once Windows Vista came out, I took the leap from XP without hesitation and had an altogether good experience because I knew what kind of hardware was necessary to run it successfully. It was different, but doable with some learning. Windows 7? Same thing. windows 8? MS did a number on us and JAWS didn't work quite as nicely at first, but by then NVDA had picked up the slack. All the same, it was material provided by FS that allowed me to get comfortable on it, even if I didn't end up keeping it.If you take a look at what Apple has done with iOS, you can clearly see that everyone who has an iPhone is using it without added expenses. Here is the obvious evidence that those who use such a device can be both more creative and productive members of society. Grab an iPhone and an Apple watch and you have a huge selection of tools at your disposal, from navigation and mobility apps, to apps that will read sheets of paper aloud to you, to apps that'll help you shop for goods without ever leaving the safety and comfort of your home if you don't need to.Information, human contact, entertainment and productivity software become available to everyone who uses voiceover with just a few swipes and taps; I just got done asking Siri to help me grab Crafting Kingdom. The iPhone is the luxury device, not the screen reading software on it, because whatever you may think of Apple, they were willing to provide us a screen reader at no extra charge. this is a device blind and sighted individuals can go and grab and use together to game with, colaborate on, and socialize through, equally!turn it around on the sighted users and ask them if they'd want to pay an extra 1000 dollars just to be able to read their luxury devices by purchasing an extra set of glasses or some other such nonsensical bit of hardware or software, and I'm sure that under every occasion you ask that question you'll get a firm and solid, NO! so why should we! why are we paying obscure companies for a right sighted individuals have right out of the box, which could easily be encorporated by companies from the start under many circumstances? Apple has shown they can do it; why not MS? If they want to continue to pay FS on our behalf so we have a screen reader that helps both novice and advanced users they should feel free to do so, or advance narrator to compete with or raise the standard. This takes the strain away from the government and the disabled individual at the same time, and places the responsibility where it belongs! URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=311698#p311698 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale @DracoSelene89It could be that windows eyes was too similar to Jaws and they wanted to consolidate their products, their recent bundle deal though seems interesting. A 90 day renewable license for $179 for both Jaws and MAGic, it seems like an attempt to get new users to opt in to long term milk licencing by pricing it in a more affordable range. In the short term people may feel their getting a deal because of the absurd $1100 base price, but long term they make a lot more of a sustained income off them through perpetual renting. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=311682#p311682 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale @DracoSelene89It could be that windows eyes was too similar to Jaws and they wanted to consolidate their products, their recent bundle deal though seems interesting. A 90 day renewable license for $179 for both Jaws and MAGic, it seems like an attempt to get people to shift over to a long term milk licencing scheme by pricing it in a more affordable range. In the short term people may feel their getting a deal because of the absurd $1100 base price, but long term they make a lot more of a sustained income off their existing user base through perpetual renting. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=311682#p311682 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale I think that's less true now than it was in the past. You do have a valid point, but NVDA is not nearly as intimidating as it used to be in its infancy. When I switched to using NVDA, I adjusted quite well. The only thing that took me awhile to get the hang of was object nav. That is a bit more complicated than using the JAWS cursor. But most commands that NVDA has are similar enough to JAWS commands that I don't understand why it's not as easy to master, unless you have to use a specific application which works better with JAWS. In that case, of course it makes sense to use it. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=311672#p311672 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale @40, the very point of JAWS is to be accommodating to users of all skill levels. JAWS is much easier to use for computer beginners than NVDA because JAWS is so refined that it allows so much customisation in such a simple way compared to NVDA. I'm not saying that NVDA is impossible for beginners to use because that's completely incorrect, but research that has been done shows that trainers and first-time computer beginners find JAWS a better learning tool than NVDA. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=311657#p311657 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale So I got an email with order confirmation information saying I now have a JAWS license. However, I can't find my authorization number. I sent an email back asking what to do. Why did I get a generic email with no registration info? URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=311646#p311646 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale I think that it would make much more sense to have two different packages that you could purchase for JAWS, a lite edition, and a full edition. The lite edition wouldn't contain Research It, OCR, FS Reader, etc. I bet that would cut the price significantly. But even so, the lite edition should still be a choice, even if they both cost the same. NV Access has it right. You can pick and choose which add-ons you want, and it's not like the add-ons are difficult to find. Furthermore, with a very few exceptions, the size of NVDA's add-ons are so small that they're practically insignificant. For most of us, hard drive space isn't something we have to worry about. But I don't like having things on my computer that I'll never use. In my case, Research It and OCR for Jaws fall into that category. With NVDA, I can choose whether I want to install an OCR package. I can select all kinds of additional features that may or may not be useful to the next person. All I'm saying is that, if FS took a page out of that book, my disdain for JAWS would decrease exponentially. Of course, FS is not the only company that's guilty of doing this. Office also contains a lot of bloatware, as do most Windows computers themselves if you buy them off the shelf. The difference is, with a Windows computer, I can format it and start over, building a system from the ground up that has exactly what I want when I want it. Office is actually a closer comparison to JAWS in the sense that you can't just pick and choose which apps you want, so, well, I just don't use it. If I ever do need to use it in a professional capacity, I'll grin and bear it, but I won't like it. Same with JAWS. I do think this whole fear of open source software in the workplace is ridiculous, but that's a rant for another day.Also, going back to mmy earlier point about empowerment, who feels more satisfied? A person who learns things by trial and err or, and a healthy dose of frustration here and there, or the person who constantly needs tiny bits of information spoon fed to them, the person who constantly leans on others whenever they need a question answered, the person who can't tolerate failure? I would certainly say the first person has a better time of things, generally speaking. Taking things like learning disabilities out of the mix, or other factors of that nature, of course. Unfortunately, people in general, no, this is not a rant about those damn lazy blindies, because I don't think that's a real thing, are becoming more and more dependent on technology to do all the heavy lifting for them. I'm just as guilty as the next person of this. I use Siri to check the weather, and I dictate my texts if I just can't be bothered to type. There are probably other things I do that I don't even realize or haven't thought of in those terms. All I'm saying is that NV Access created a screen re ader that is designed to bolster the user. Freedom Scientific did the opposite. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=311580#p311580 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale I think that it would make much more sense to have two different packages that you could purchase for JAWS, a lite edition, and a full edition. The lite edition wouldn't contain Research It, OCR, FS Reader, etc. I bet that would cut the price significantly. But even so, the lite edition should still be a choice, even if they both cost the same. NV Access has it right. You can pick and choose which add-ons you want, and it's not like the add-ons are difficult to find. Furthermore, with a very few exceptions, the size of NVDA's add-ons are so small that they're practically insignificant. For most of us, hard drive space isn't something we have to worry about. But I don't like having things on my computer that I'll never use. In my case, Research It and OCR for Jaws fall into that category. With NVDA, I can choose whether I want to install an OCR package. I can select all kinds of additional features that may or may not be useful to the next person. All I'm saying is that, if FS took a page out of that book, my disdain for JAWS would decrease exponentially. Of course, FS is not the only company that's guilty of doing this. Office also contains a lot of bloatware, as do most Windows computers themselves if you buy them off the shelf. The difference is, with a Windows computer, I can format it and start over, building a system from the ground up that has exactly what I want when I want it. Office is actually a closer comparison to JAWS in the sense that you can't just pick and choose which apps you want, so, well, I just don't use it. If I ever do need to use it in a professional capacity, I'll grin and bear it, but I won't like it. Same with JAWS. I do think this whole fear of open source software in the workplace is ridiculous, but that's a rant for another day. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=311580#p311580 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale I asked GW for my SMA counts to be added to my existing JAWS license, which already had a single SMA count, to enable all the feature flags, and to take my license back to Pro. Result is that I now have 18.0+3, which, really, isn't too shabby ...Of course, I am absolutely not going to boast about this fact on a random forum full of blind people, in order to inspire the kind of bitter resentment and envy felt by users of other screen readers, who (for whatever reason) cannot afford a high-quality, commercial screen reader that every government and corporate client, and his dog, will happily pay for.No, siree! Absolutely not. Seriously though, NVDA is perfectly adequate for many (most?) types of applications that you will meaningfully use, just like VO on the Mac. But, I think it's fair to say that JFW is needed for robust support for certain appli cations. MS Office is probably the best known of these, if we're being brutally honest here. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=311572#p311572 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale @post 30, I think you have a misconception about comercial products. A product, which is sold at a particular price, is not designed especially to meet only one's needs or desires. It is designed to meet all the customers' needs with all the features that it can possibly offer, and if missing one, the company should be eager to add it to the product. Consider iOS, for example, do you need the Zoom service? Do you need the stocks Ap, do you need all the text-to-speech voices included in Voiceover? I would personally say no to most of the above questions, but there's supposedly someone somewhere out there who needs any of them. Consider, for example, a sighted user. Does he need any of the assistive features like Voiceover, Zoom, Assistive touch, or any other of them found on the accessibility section? I don't think so. In most of the cases, they post questions on the forum, like, what is Voiceover? Why do I need it? How the hell do I turn it off? These features are there because someone needs them, and there is not only a single category of people who uses the iPhone or the iPad. The same is true when we consider JAWS. It's true that you and I may not use the OCR feature, nor FS reader, nor research it, but my friend may use some of them. What can he do if any one is missing? Shall he ask the company to have them delivered on demand? That cannot work because there will be a crrowd of people waiting on the line, or thousands of e-mails waiting for an answer. The solution is to include all the necessary features on the product so as to attract more and more customers. JAWS follows that strategy too.I think some of the features you mention can be taken away from JAWS in the first place, particularly OCR. If you just disconnect from any network, the JAWS setup package will continue the installation, without any error. It will display a message though, by the end of the installation, but that causes absolutely no problem. As I said, just disconnect from any network, and everything will be fine. FS Reader can be uninstalled as well without having any effect on your current copy of JAWS. It's as simple as that. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=311565#p311565 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale @35:Fair point, however.it's not like Jaws is the only thing FS sells, they do have other revenue streams and as MS showed, you can sell quality software and shift more units by lowering a price point, and getting more people buying a $100 screenreader, than having a few people buy a $1200 screenreader, it is simple economics. If Jaws was the only thing FS were marketing then they may very well eventually have wound up in trouble simply by pricing themselves out of the market. As is, I do feel they could have marketed WindowEyes as a cheaper screenreader for home users, and kept Jaws for the higher end business type users that can drop four figures on it for commercial usage. That though would make way too much sense wouldn't it?@36:Not when companies willingly pay for the business license and use it. Businesses buy expensive software and enter into license negotiatitons that state you will use Jaws at work and like it and you are not, legally at work, allowed to use NVDA/WindowEyes/Narrator/etc. A common example of this is a company using MS Office instead of OpenOffice for example, despite OpenOffice being exactly the same function wise. As long as companies are willing to cough up the licensing costs, that in itself will keeep FS thinking they can raise the prices and then such.Also no, it's not a monopoly in the slightest, because there are alternatives and you are free to choose what screenreader you use, . To be a monopoly in the legal sense, not just the colloquial sense, FS would have to have a significant market share, be able to fix prices and exclude competition. The fact NVDA, and other sceenreaders exist means, at least according to the letter of the law, FS do not hold a monopoly on screenreaders. As per the FTC's information. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=311551#p311551 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale yeah, 35 has it right. Take a look at how far Android has come in just a decade. Ten years ago, the iPhone was the hype of it all. Today, I know more people who own droids to iOS devices. That changes when you get into the blind community; I know more blind/VI users with iOS devices than with droids because iOS devices are overall easier to use, hold your hand and don't tell you to install anything other than the apps you wish to use. Even here, however, droids are quickly catching up; droids will, I believe, eventually catch up where accessibility is concerned, much like NVDA ahs caught up to JAWS in many regards. Today, we aren't bound by the money restraint; we can have it free and use it that way for the most part, and so what if facebook's main site works better with JAWS anyway? The losses are minimal, the chances of success with a free screen reader like NVDA are greater than they ever have been before, and the urgenc y to make FS quit raising prices to their own ends is not as prevalent as it once might have been. In short, big bad monopoly, otherwise, nothing to see here, children. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=311527#p311527 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale Open Source projects don't have the same constraints and limitations that commercial projects do. NVDA can crowd source alot of the code work, technical support, translations, documentation, and hardware support through their community, which is basically a free bottomless skill pit. They also accept donations and sell training books and certification, though there are also plenty of free guides written by the community, and as far as i'm aware they don't licensing anything from anyone. Even in the unlikely event NV Access should up and die, the source code and NVDA will live on through its community for as long as people care to maintain it. Linux is much the same way, and its slowly dominating the world. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=311504#p311504 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale I don't think that the price of JAWS is justified, but there does need to be a several-hundred-dollar price tag because developing something that very few people use is expensive. Remember that Freedom Scientific has to pay its developers, technical support staff, administrators, translators, training and documentation authors, outreach team and marketing and promotion teams ... and that's just for JAWS. They need to keep their websites up and running and to provide on-time bug fixes. They need to buy braille displays and software to test for compatibility. They need to license software and code. Because of its popularity, they need to be able to test it in myriads of ways to mimic the setups that people have. They need to partially fund the deal that they are now doing with APH and the deals that they do with really large companies.So, you ask, how does NVDA survive? Let me ask you some questions then: How many large companies that employ blind screen reader user s use NVDA? How many pieces of software does NVDA need to license? Does NVDA have the amount of training and support that there is for other similar products?Sorry for the rant. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=311495#p311495 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale n@30: Buyer's remorse/guilt. They spent upwards of $1000 (and no idea why it is that price, or why a lot of physical goods that are accessible are marked up on certain organizations), so they feel like they have to defend it or at least, explain to themselves why they bought the software and paid the asking price.That, and Jaws is a well known screenreader. . So people feel like it's worth $1200 or however much it is. That being said, I don't agree with the pricing at all.Then again, when you're buying your own stuffya, things like that are, sadly, nudged into luxury status, which is wrong for something that is essential to use a computer for a large number of people. Yes it's business pricing but the average user can't easily drop a grand on a screenreader then go down an upgrade path./opinionOh and, I'd be all for a decent, $30 to $50 screenreader that works cross platform, is stable, is lightweight, and isac tually...ya know, worth the asking price.IMO FS have a lot of issues, but they are certainly not the worst company around. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=311494#p311494 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale If you did like Window-Eyes, ZoomText Fusion is still being sold.I am a JAWS user and I use Research It and Convenient OCR all the time. I use Research It to quickly check the definition of the word because a) it's quicker and b) I'm too lazy to go to Wiktionary (the dictionary look-up source it uses) and search for the word myself. I also use it to check the weather for my city, which is almost always extremely accurate. I sometimes also use it for checking the latest news from the BBC.As a student, I use OCR to scan documents from time to time. It varies with its accuracy, but generally it's good enough for my needs. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=311477#p311477 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale I've never gotten Fs reader to work; make of that what you will. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=311452#p311452 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale Jaws is so big and bloated because of the OCR feature, mainly. Also, Research it most likely isn't helping matters. If these were optional features, I wouldn't mind, but I think it's absolutely ridiculous to make people download things they might not even use. When I was a JAWS user, I never used Research It. I feel that it probably is useful for those who are just getting started with using a computer. But, then again, it would be much more empowering for them to learn how to use Google, or another favorite search engine of choice, rather than letting a screen reader hold their hand. I also object to the OCR package being included, because I think I used that thing a grand total of twice ever since it came out, and that was for testing purposes. I found that most PDF's I've interacted with could be told to play nicely if you converted them to text, usually with QRead, but there are other workable solutions. And, honestly, this was the only real benefit to the built-in OCR that I had foreseen, the ability to interact with PDF documents. Then again, I don't really use them that often; a restaurant menu here or there, or maybe a bank statement if I really need to comb through those for something, although these things have pretty much all been solved by my acquisition of an IPhone anyway.And don't even get me started about why the JAWS training materials should be an optional feature. Oh, wait, I don't have to make a case for that, it should be pretty obvious why. I am also quite displeased that FS found it necessary to push their podcasts on you. Why that needs to be included in a screen reader is beyond me. If NV Access tried that, first there would be a rightly deserved uproar, then people would be told, in no uncertain terms, that they were able to type the address for NV Access into their web browsers just fine before. Nothing has changed, nor has their ability to add the site to their favorites suddenly disa ppeared. So where FS gets off doing the same thing and getting away with it, I have no clue.The point is, what sense does it make, especially for people who have limited data connections, to download an installer that could very easily be cut in half just by removing what I would call bloatware? As I said, I don't deny their usefulness to some. And the Vocalizer voices are also an optional feature that must be downloaded. Why can't OCR, Research It, and the training book be the same? Oh, and FS Reader as well. I personally don't find that one as offensive, since I don't use a lot of Daisy books, and since accessible Daisy players are hard to find, I actually can see a strong use case for it. However, I'm told that FS Reader tends to crash a lot and is very slow, so I don't know. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=311423#p311423 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale Jaws is so big and bloated because of the OCR feature, mainly. Also, Research it most likely isn't helping matters. If these were optional features, I wouldn't mind, but I think it's absolutely ridiculous to make people download things they might not even use. When I was a JAWS user, I never used Research It. I feel that it probably is useful for those who are just getting started with using a computer. But, then again, it would be much more empowering for them to learn how to use Google, or another favorite search engine of choice, rather than letting a screen reader hold their hand. I also object to the OCR package being included, because I think I used that thing a grand total of twice ever since it came out, and that was for testing purposes. I found that most PDF's I've interacted with could be told to play nicely if you converted them to text, usually with QRead, but there are other workable solutions. And, honestly, this was the only real benefit to the built-in OCR that I had foreseen, the ability to interact with PDF documents. Then again, I don't really use them that often; a restaurant menu here or there, or maybe a bank statement if I really need to comb through those for something, although these things have pretty much all been solved by my acquisition of an IPhone anyway.And don't even get me started about why the JAWS training materials should be an optional feature. Oh, wait, I don't have to make a case for that, it should be pretty obvious why. I am also quite displeased that FS found it necessary to push their podcasts on you. Why that needs to be included in a screen reader is beyond me. If NV Access tried that, first there would be a rightly deserved uproar, then people would be told, in no uncertain terms, that they were able to type the address for NV Access into their web browsers just fine before. Nothing has changed, nor has their ability to add the site to their favorites suddenly disa ppeared. So where FS gets off doing the same thing and getting away with it, I have no clue.The point is, what sense does it make, especially for people who have limited data connections, to download an installer that could very easily be cut in half just by removing what I would call optional features? As I said, I don't deny their usefulness to some. And the Vocalizer voices are also an optional feature that must be downloaded. Why can't OCR, Research It, and the training book be the same? Oh, and FS Reader as well. I personally don't find that one as offensive, since I don't use a lot of Daisy books, and since accessible Daisy players are hard to find, I actually can see a strong use case for it. However, I'm told that FS Reader tends to crash a lot and is very slow, so I don't know. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=311423#p311423 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale @Chris, I do know there is a Jaws demo, but since I have no hope in hell of affording it, either in initial license or upgrades, it really would be just idle curiosity at this stage. Were it $50, or even $100, maybe, but at this point probably a better use of my time would be getting more familiar with nvda since unless Supernova really gets it's act together in it's next few versions Nvda will probably be my main screen reader from now on. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=311369#p311369 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale OK, so purely out of curiosity, I checked out System Access again. Former Serotek employees can't even recommend it anymore, however a couple of observations in my case are: that it did not correctly install on my (snapshotted, of course) XP VM, crashing with an exception in kernel32.dll; and that, in any case, it came bundled with all the other Serotek nonsense (you could not simply install the screen reader alone).So, that's it, then. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=311359#p311359 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale At the times when I was using Windows, I used NVDA helping sometimes with ZDSR, but We was cool as I looked in to it in 2011 if I remember URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=311335#p311335 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale why is the installer so large?This seems to affect all the software, these days. It's like software is a gas: the more diskspace available, the more it expands to fill its container. I can only hope that the filesize bloat all over the everything is due to "security", or something. Otherwise, I'd have to blame it on a "because we can get away with it, now" attitude. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=311321#p311321 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale Dark, you can download the JAWS 18 demo and try it out for yourself. The only limitations I know of are the 40 minute timer and the inability to be the controller for JAWS Tandem. Speaking of JAWS, why is the installer still so large? I thought they got rid of the video intercept drivers since they don't work with 8 and 10. I didn't think they were used with 7, but I could be wrong. Maybe the install file will get smaller if JAWS is still around when Windows 7 becomes obsolete and those drivers are hopefully scrapped for good. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=311320#p311320 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale @Afrim, as I said, my lady's window eyes license number is in a cd in a box in Germany, that is assuming it's still valid, unfortunately her x husband apparently handled all of that sort of thing. Unfortunately I think the Window eyes license was a casualty of their divorce. For curiosity if nothing else I possibly would consider at least trying jaws a little more extensively if I wouldn't have to pay stupid amounts of money for it, both for initial license and program compatibility maintenance (whether I decide to bother with the next supernova full version is slightly debatable at this stage). But Hay, I've lived without Jaws quite successfully thus far, actually I just mentioned my lady's response to my asking if she wanted to try getting the jaws license because her extremely grim tone and clear dislike of old Sharky was rather amusing, perhaps something I didn't put across in text. Actually, she migrated from jaws herse lf, or rather her ex husband migrated her from jaws, though she's actually got on better with supernova and Nvda than either, though of course to what extent this is to do with the qualities of each program and to what extent to do with simply having different circumstances for using each I don't know. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=311317#p311317 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale I figured this was coming. Once FS bought AI Squared and then merged, one of the products had to go. And of course it was window eyes, because FS would go for the product under their wing as it were rather than their own product. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=311276#p311276 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale Well, I cannot say I'm surprized.I didn't like window eyes, because at that time I cannot get the spanish version of it... URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=311275#p311275 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale There are far too many elitists on either side promoting their favorite product; can someone just get me a brailler already? :d URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=311264#p311264 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale @Dark, If I were your lady, I would take the offer. JAWS is a wonderful screen reader and it is fairly integrated with Windows, and especially the office package. I've not been disappointed by JAWS on its performance in Microsoft word, which I need to use daily, and have been doing so for the last five years. It's not absolutely bad, especially when you don't pay $1000. Since you have recently switched to NVDA, you may have a chance to try it yourself and if satisfied with its performance, why not consider working with it in daily basis?P.S.: I'm not bashing about NVDA here. And by the way, I'm using NVDA at the moment of speaking. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=311263#p311263 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale Actually Sebby given that her Window eyes license number is somewhere on a cd in a box inn Germany the question was mostly an idle one . URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=311249#p311249 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale System Access, eh? Now, can somebody here tell us what that's good for? Honest question ...@Dark: since there is absolutely no copy-protection on Window-Eyes whatsoever (one of its genuinely wonderful features, quite apart from either Supernova or JAWS) it's entirely possible to request your JAWS 18 license, and not suffer any penalty. And, after all, it's a major screen reader, that's still maintained, and works with many (mostly bespoke) applications that NVDA probably never will. There is a deadline to apply, so I'd suggest the lady reconsider, if I were you. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=311221#p311221 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale R.I.P to window-eyesI've only used it once, but i didn't like it.It's just so sad to see less competitors around.and what's vfo anyway? Variable-frequency oscillator? URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=311191#p311191 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale And this comes on the back of VFO acquiring the Paciello Group last week. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=311182#p311182 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale Hmmm, I can't say I am surprised at this since ever since I've heard fs took over gw micro I sort of expected this to happen after all, Fs behaviour in the past has been rather typical of the corporate takeover mentality, what with buying up nearly every government contract they could lay their hands on, and then expecting individual users to pay governmental prices. I will confess in fairness my own experience with window eyes, trying to get it to run with my lady's computer was far from positive. At the time I wondered if this was due to me being too used to Supernova, but transfer to nvda has been absolutely fine. Still I do know a lot of people swore by Window Eyes in the past and apparently like supernova quality has tailed off, indeed I do wonder if the Shark will be going after the dolphin next. Btw, I asked my lady if she fancied digging out her window eyes license number and getting a Jaws license, her response was a very grim "no!& quot; URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=311181#p311181 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale Yeah, I'm definitely getting the monopoly vibe here. I decided to send a request for a JFW license. If I get a free copy of 18 that's cool. If not, I don't really care. I know I'm definitely not buying any SMA upgrades unless I have a very good reason. JFW has a few interesting features, but it's definitely not worth $1000. I'm just concerned about the future. NVDA is the only other major competitor now. SuperNova isn't all that popular and I think System Access is even less. Of course, Microsoft might really turn the tables if Narrator continues improving. I just wish I never purchased Window-eyes. At the time I thought that since it was a commercial product, it must be good. I was an idiot. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=311175#p311175 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale hahaha! I like that one better! Linux is left fighting windows, the ruler of the world! URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=311174#p311174 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale Yeah, but even then, there'd still be Wendy's, Backyard Burger, Sonic, Waterburger, Cheeburger, and so on to Infinity and Beyond. Meanwhile, this leaves NVDA and Supernova and System Access, and that's effectively it. And I hadn't even heard of any of those before 2010, where I was aware of Window Eyes and Connect Out Loud by 2001. I'd say this is more like Microsoft buying Apple and discontinuing OSX. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=311173#p311173 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale This is like McDonalds buyhing out Burger king and getting rid of the whopper. Nicely done, guys; very very creative indeed. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=311166#p311166 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale Here is the comment I left on the blind bargains article about this very thing. I am not sure if it went through. what does everyone else here think?In one sense this is sad news indeed, but on the other hand it was expected that something like this would happen. After all, one company like BFO cannot be expected to sell two software packages that does roughly the same thing. In a way, I liked some of the features that WwindowEyes had in it. For example, take a look at the scripting language of WwindowEyes. You could use some of what you knew already of other computer languages and the like into account when scripting WindowEyes. I doubt that the scripting of WindowEyes will not be carried over. I am used to JAWS myself, but those who are transferring over maybe not be used to it. I do wonder how hard it would be for those people to transfer over. The next to go maybe magic or zoom text. I will let others decide which one of those mak e it out on top. Then again, zoom text maybe? URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=311154#p311154 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale Well, I am definitely not surprised about this. Window Eyes had been declining in popularity for quite awhile, and, of course, when VFO came into existance, everybody knew one of the major screen readers had to go. And, well, most of us knew which was considered the weaker of the two. Still, this does feel sort of like a bullying tactic. I'm glad I switched to using NVDA. Now I only have to watch from the sidelines, and I don't have to feel betrayed by this bullshit. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=311151#p311151 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale This is an epitaph for Window-eyes, written and published by cool blind tech.com. Quite profound, I'd say.“Here lies Window-eyes,After it was bought, met its demise.Gave customers flexibility,Unfortunately, no software is immune to mortality.”Reference: https://coolblindtech.com/breaking-wind … vfo-group/ URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=311140#p311140 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale If you have a current Window-Eyes, you can get a current JAWS. And if you have SMA counts, they'll transfer. Check out the podcast on the linked page.I found Window-Eyes far more stable than JFW. YMMV. I don't think FS will be giving JFW away though, not even to free Window-Eyes users for Office (apparently, the contract is winding down and MS were sponsoring it more-or-less exclusively). URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=311139#p311139 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale The best thing that could happen is that they change the pricing model for jaws. Perhaps they offer jaws for free if you have office installed, or god for bid drop the price. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=311135#p311135 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale All I'll say is good riddance to that crummy screen reader. It wasn't worth the $1200 we spent on it. It crashed a lot and seemedly generally unstable. I wonder if I could get me a free copy of JFW? I own Window-eyes 9.2 or something like that, but we quit paying for the upgrades so I'll probably be stuck on Jaws 18. Then again, I don't really like Jaws. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=311131#p311131 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale I cut my teeth on Wineyes, starting from 3.0 on Windows 3.x. Gosh, happy days. Happy days ... URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=311126#p311126 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale Rest in peace to window eyes.I like old versions like 6.1 and I am sad for it.I am using nvda but nah, I liked it with qualiti voices and much, much more. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=39#p39 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Re: Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale And the shark bites, my friends. Watch out NVDA, just kidding of course. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=311107#p311107 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale
Window-Eyes No Longer for Sale And, sure as the sun rises in the morning and sets in the evening, AI Squared discontinues Window-Eyes sales, and offers JAWS migration by way of an alternative. Existing users can migrate freely, before a July 31 deadline.We suspected that this would happen, of course, and now it has. Crying shame. I was really quite fond of Window-Eyes, but the slow progress of development and the VFO acquisition would inevitably put it at a disadvantage. And now, finally, it has been taken out back and shot.Rest In Peace, Window-Eyes. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=311101#p311101 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
