Re: accessible_output2 Error on Mac (Python3.7.6)
Re: accessible_output2 Error on Mac (Python3.7.6) @13The NVDA DLL isn't my problem: it's the things using it. I don't particularly want to have to bundle more LGPL things as separate DLLS, and MIT and BSD licenses require you to have a whole thing in place to make sure that the license files get copied into the distribution. Not to mention that in Python, being LGPL means not being able to prevent reverse engineering (though just binding a C library doesn't infect). Unfortunately reading code under license x usually makes the result also license x unless you're really really careful. But to me there is high value in having stuff under the unlicense or in public domain, since we're talking about games and no one wants to track down all 500 (literally 500) license files that got pulled in to their project. Does anyone care? Probably not, most people here are (whether they like it or not) teenagers making games for teenagers, and no one is going to get mad that you didn't "include a copy of this statement with every substantial portion of the software" or whatever. But nonetheless.I'm not against credit, I just don't have the resources to track things to the required degree. Library a brings in b and c which brings in d, e, and f under who knows what licenses...The live region approach doesn't give up anything as long as all screen readers support it, and as far as I know they do (including Narrator). You just have to have a window handle you have enough control over to implement the UIA and/or NSAccessibility interfaces on and the patience to actually do it. You'll get politeness levels, so you even have notification priority. Only things you don't have are a separate braille stream and the ability to stop speech, but i've never seen a game use either of those.My ideal game engine stuff would be built around accessible GUI widgets anyway, simply because there's just so many patterns that we reimplement when we decide that the thing to do is basically write a game-specific screen reader, so to that end I'd probably already have the window handle. But on the whole it is almost certainly much easier to include the NVDA DLL, call the Jaws COM interface, forget about Narrator, and do whatever for Mac. Plus since I haven't done the live region thing, merely worked out the pieces for it, I can't guarantee that it works.On Windows you can override the window callback and inject into a window that already exists. I don't know if an equivalent works for mac, and I don't remember the Windows function offhand. But you respond to WM_GETOBJECT and pass all other messages through and I'm 99% sure that's good enough to get a UIA implementation of your own in. Not a great idea on anything but the thing that just grabs keystrokes because you'd have to forward everything else to the underlying control, but it'll get you enough to build a UIA tree and then in that UIA tree you set up a live region and you're off to the races. In theory. What everyone forgets is that all the stuff that exists in HTML is officially documented; if you were masochistic enough you could implement an entire browser-like control without any visual components on the screen whatsoever, just by lying to the accessibility APIs. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/515405/#p515405 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: accessible_output2 Error on Mac (Python3.7.6)
2020-04-02
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Developers room : TJ . Breitenfeldt via Audiogames-reflector
Re: accessible_output2 Error on Mac (Python3.7.6) Hi, thank you for the replys. I am glad that I could bring up an issue that has not been addressed. Thank you for the work around by enabling Voiceover access by apple script, that worked for me. I wish I could help in resolving this issue, but I would need to do a lot of learning on the Mac before I could speak intelligently about a problem like this. My intention is to keep working with the Mac and eventually pick up objective C/Swift and apple script, but I need to feel comfortable using Voiceover first.Thank you to the developers who end up tackling this issue,Timothy Breitenfeldt URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/515393/#p515393 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: accessible_output2 Error on Mac (Python3.7.6)
Re: accessible_output2 Error on Mac (Python3.7.6) Can you elaborate a little? To my understanding, the NVDA controller client is licensed under the LGPL. Since I presume no modification of the controller itself is being done, we aren't dealing with a derivative work thus inclusion in other projects (those with more permissive licensing) are permitted. No idea about dolapi and system access, in fact I'd hazard the guess that it would take a while for anyone to notice if support for the former was dropped anyway.Taking advantage of live regions would be cool as we'd remove a significant amount of the API interfacing problem altogether, but this would come at the cost of removing flexibility obtainable only directly through said API's.I'd need to play around with atspi a little bit but believe with some certainty we could speak through orca without much difficulty, the linux equivalent of your live regions idea maybe. AO2 currently only supports speech dispatcher which is always a last resort. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/515352/#p515352 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: accessible_output2 Error on Mac (Python3.7.6)
Re: accessible_output2 Error on Mac (Python3.7.6) @10I know how to do this for NVDA and Jaws, and if you can intercept the window callback I believe I know how to also do this for Narrator. Mac is relatively easy as established, if you have the hardware to test it. I don't know Orca, System Access, or Dolphin.I can't donate code toward it but if you want info on how, I can provide some of that info.The real issue is that short of piracy or a big community effort, it's rare to impossible to have access to all the platforms.If Philip releases a library and I get to the point in my very long, long term audiogame engine ideas where I need it, I'll help maintain it--these aren't hard, it's just not documented and currently the only solutions in audiogames land are MIT or (L)GPL so doing something more permissive based off them directly can't be done.Ideally I'd use WX or something, or just write my own SDL bindings, or something. Then implement UIA/Objective-C live regions. And then we could end the hackery and avoid the redistribution of the DLLs (on Windows this isn't impossibly difficult; your mileage may vary with other platforms).@11This is the OS X equivalent of Sapi, i.e. won't respect screen reader speech settings. It has the same voices, however, because on OS X you don't get embedded espeak.I looked this up: the way to do this is to implement the NS Accessibility Protocol on a control, then use NSAccessibilityPostNotification to notify VO of the message. Which requires a control to implement on, which you can't get through Pygame because reasons, ergo change the setting and call it a day.Mind you, overall this just keeps convincing me that we need an accessible GUI toolkit for our engines if we want non-hacky experiences. But that would require me or a me-equivalent having a Mac, multiple screen readers, and the time. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/515254/#p515254 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: accessible_output2 Error on Mac (Python3.7.6)
Re: accessible_output2 Error on Mac (Python3.7.6) OK, I found the voice related docs at apple, I am posting the link here to save anyone the time. Basically, it's alot easyer than I thought, though it doesn't look so at first glance.The basic idea is, instead of me needing to pass directly messages through vo, which is actually what happens anyway, Apple built abstractions around such things, the speech synthesizer manager framework, the recommended way to bring speech into any new application, in our case, AO2.I will post the link here. Thing is the prototypes are in swift, a language I am barely familiar with, though it's not a world threatening situation, so yeah.Here is the link:https://developer.apple.com/documentati … is_managerI hope if I did something wrong, someone more rehersed in such things shall correct me, as I normally don't develop on mac, even the XCode version I found on the app store is alittle strange to me... lol. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/515246/#p515246 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: accessible_output2 Error on Mac (Python3.7.6)
Re: accessible_output2 Error on Mac (Python3.7.6) As one of the current accessible_output2 as well as other project maintainers I'd like to quickly respond to #8.Up to this point I've received zero notification of this alleged issue and to my knowledge, the same rings true with Q. We can't exactly fix what we don't know is broken... Assuming there is actually some sort of API change and OP needs to do more than allow applescript VO control.Just one of the beauties of opensource software is that anyone has the ability to contribute, regardless of the form. Many opensource project maintainers do so in their spare time, often alongside demanding jobs. It just so happens that most of these jobs are in the field.The last thing anyone says after a long day of hammering out code in anticipation of strict deadlines is... "Hey I know, let's scour insert codebase here for bugs that may or may not exist because what better to do on a Friday night?" It's simply impractical from a logical standpoint. If you want to blame someone, blame yourself for your mentality, which is a big part of the reason many a talented dev simply can't see it in their mind to bother. If you want to blame someone, blame yourself for failing to get involved. There is absolutely zero obligation for any of us to do what we do.That having been said, OP please report back with your findings. If it turns out to be an issue on our side, I wouldn't mind looking into this further and writing a patch (if necessary).@6Pretty sure Philip had already written a pretty full-featured C speech lib he was wanting to release under a relatively liberal license, one of these days. This was also holding me back from starting another of my own devise. Don't quote me on anything though. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/515240/#p515240 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: accessible_output2 Error on Mac (Python3.7.6)
Re: accessible_output2 Error on Mac (Python3.7.6) As one of the current accessible_output2 as well as other project maintainers I'd like to quickly respond to #8.Up to this point I've received zero notification of this alleged issue and to my knowledge, the same rings true with Q. We can't exactly fix what we don't know is broken... Assuming there is actually some sort of API change and OP needs to do more than allow applescript VO control.Just one of the beauties of opensource software is that anyone has the ability to contribute, regardless of the form. Many opensource project maintainers do so in their spare time, often alongside demanding jobs. It just so happens that most of these jobs are in the field.The last thing anyone says after a long day of hammering out code in anticipation of strict deadlines is... "Hey I know, let's scour insert codebase here for bugs that may or may not exist because what better to do on a Friday night?" It's simply impractical from a logical standpoint. If you want to blame someone, blame yourself for your mentality, which is a big part of the reason many a talented dev simply can't see it in their mind to bother. If you want to blame someone, blame yourself for failing to get involved. There is absolutely zero obligation for any of us to do what we do.That having been said, OP please report back with your findings. If it turns out to be an issue on our side, I wouldn't mind looking into this further and writing a patch (if necessary).@6Pretty sure Philip had already written a pretty full-featured C speech lib he was wanting to release under a liberal license, one of these days. This was also holding me back from starting another of my own devise. Don't quote me on anything though. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/515240/#p515240 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: accessible_output2 Error on Mac (Python3.7.6)
Re: accessible_output2 Error on Mac (Python3.7.6) @7Actually, this did get changed I believe. There is a function which can call Voiceover without going through AppleScript on at least iOS, and I believe it got ported to mac. So it's probably possible to do without requiring people to change settings.I would have to check docs to find out if I'm right, but what @3 is saying sounds correct in other words.@8Attitudes like this are why those of us who can do these sorts of projects flinch when thinking about this community. An open source maintainer has no obligation to maintain their project for you, either for free or otherwise. If you want it to be maintained, either nicely ask someone, pay someone, or learn to maintain it yourself.The only motivation an OSS developer has is wanting it to exist, and the only obligation an OSS developer has is to enjoy doing it. You have absolutely zero right to get mad about unmaintained projects unless you or someone else is paying for it to be maintained. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/515239/#p515239 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: accessible_output2 Error on Mac (Python3.7.6)
Re: accessible_output2 Error on Mac (Python3.7.6) As one of the current accessible_output2 as well as other project maintainers I'd like to quickly respond to #8.Up to this point I've received zero notification of this alleged issue and to my knowledge, the same rings true with Q. We can't exactly fix what we don't know is broken... Assuming there is actually some sort of API change and OP needs to do more than allow applescript VO control.Just one of the beauties of opensource software is that anyone has the ability to contribute, regardless of the form. Many opensource project maintainers do so in their spare time, often alongside demanding jobs. It just so happens that most of these jobs are in the field.The last thing anyone says after a long day of hammering out code in anticipation of strict deadlines is... "Hey I know, let's scour insert codebase here for bugs that may or may not exist because what better to do on a Friday night?" It's simply impractical from a logical standpoint.That having been said, OP please report back with your findings. If it turns out to be an issue on our side, I wouldn't mind looking into this further and writing a patch (if necessary).@6Pretty sure Philip had already written a pretty full-featured C speech lib he was wanting to release under a liberal license, one of these days. This was also holding me back from starting another of my own devise. Don't quote me on anything though. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/515240/#p515240 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: accessible_output2 Error on Mac (Python3.7.6)
Re: accessible_output2 Error on Mac (Python3.7.6) Would be great if Q would quit being lazy and fix it himself, but well, we all know Q. He loves picking up projects whenever he feels like it and then dropping them shortly afterwards. He's way worse than Mason in that regard. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/515229/#p515229 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: accessible_output2 Error on Mac (Python3.7.6)
Re: accessible_output2 Error on Mac (Python3.7.6) Let me expand on what I said in #4. It's not that the api has changed, or that ao2 is broken in any way, it's simply because the author hasn't allowed voiceover to be controlled by apple script. Could it throw a nicer exception yes, but non the less, that is how you fix the issue, by allowing vo to be controlled by apple script. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/515227/#p515227 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: accessible_output2 Error on Mac (Python3.7.6)
Re: accessible_output2 Error on Mac (Python3.7.6) @5I don't know how. I know it can be done. Objective-C messages are dynamic, way moreso than the Windows API, so I'm sure the libs for it exist.I don't know if AO2 has a current maintainer either. personally I want to reimplement it under the unlicense but lack of time will stop me (plus finding people willing to donate the appropriate code). URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/515202/#p515202 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: accessible_output2 Error on Mac (Python3.7.6)
Re: accessible_output2 Error on Mac (Python3.7.6) @3: you're right, I should, but I don't use my mac for development, so I didn't bother too much about it, always thinking someone will solve it, seing that it's such a crucial library for audiogame development, but I was wrong, it seems.such, As soon as I am finished completely with image power, it occupying almost all of my time for now, I will get on with it unless someone does it first.The only things preventing me from contributing to it are my total infamiliarity with both github and the AO2 source tree as well as it's commit policy, but those things could, I thing, be solved in maximum three hours time.The most pressing thing, however, is that I don't know how to consume objective-c libs and system APIs in python. I need to do that because that's the only way to make vo work, sending coco messages to it. Is such a thing even possible?With xamarin.mac or xamarin.iOS,, there is a c# static compiler and a linker that manages the inclusion of assemblies and needed components, compiling the result in native code using the llvm cross-compiler. What about python, can one do that in python as well? or how else are we going to send coco messages to vo? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/515200/#p515200 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: accessible_output2 Error on Mac (Python3.7.6)
Re: accessible_output2 Error on Mac (Python3.7.6) Hi.For the error to go away, you need to allow vo to be controlled by apple script (the setting can be found in the vo utility). URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/515073/#p515073 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: accessible_output2 Error on Mac (Python3.7.6)
Re: accessible_output2 Error on Mac (Python3.7.6) @2You have a Mac. You know the API change that needs to be made. It's open source and on GitHub. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/515012/#p515012 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: accessible_output2 Error on Mac (Python3.7.6)
Re: accessible_output2 Error on Mac (Python3.7.6) Though a c# programmer for quite a long time now, almost since I switched away from bgt, I still use python and check on the echo system from time to time to see whether the python dev team came up with a python 4.0 or something like that, it wouldn't surprise me one bit at this stage, not that it would be bad if they would be able to come up with something that will make it faster or something, like somehow getting rid of the global interpreter loc or making it unnecessary lol.Yes, indeed I have the same problem, I just installed both python 3.8.2 and accessible output2 on my brand new mac and same as back in 2017, when I checked it for the first time.After a bit of research, I found out that apple changed its way of letting other programs use voiceover for speach, AO2 is behind on things, it seems and we shall not expect it to work any more, that is, if no one will modify AO2 according to the new API.the good thing, however, is that, on ubuntu at least, it still works seamlessly, maybe because the API exposed by speech dispatcher is not changing so often? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/514997/#p514997 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
accessible_output2 Error on Mac (Python3.7.6)
2020-04-01
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Developers room : TJ . Breitenfeldt via Audiogames-reflector
accessible_output2 Error on Mac (Python3.7.6)
Hi, I am working on a cross platform game. I Wrote the code on my Windows computer using python 3.7.6 and accessible_output2. It runs fine on Windows, however when I went to go test it on my Mac, I installed python 3.7.6 and accessible_output2 first to make sure that was working, and I am getting an error.Is anyone else having an issue with accessible_output2 on Mac using python 3?This is my terminal output in the interactive shell:Python 3.7.6 (v3.7.6:43364a7ae0, Dec 18 2019, 14:18:50) [Clang 6.0 (clang-600.0.57)] on darwinType "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.>>> from accessible_output2.outputs.auto import Auto>>> screenreader = Auto()>>> screenreader.output("Hello world")Traceback (most recent call last): File "/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/3.7/lib/python3.7/site-packages/aeosa/appscript/reference.py", line 599, in __getattr__ selectortype, code = self.AS_appdata.referencebyname()[name]KeyError: 'output'The above exception was the direct cause of the following exception:Traceback (most recent call last): File "", line 1, in File "/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/3.7/lib/python3.7/site-packages/accessible_output2/outputs/auto.py", line 37, in output output.speak(*args, **kwargs) File "/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/3.7/lib/python3.7/site-packages/accessible_output2/outputs/voiceover.py", line 16, in speak self.app.output(text) File "/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/3.7/lib/python3.7/site-packages/aeosa/appscript/reference.py", line 601, in __getattr__ raise AttributeError("Unknown property, element or command: {!r}".format(name)) from eAttributeError: Unknown property, element or command: 'output'Thanks,Timothy
URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/514927/#p514927
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