Re: [Aus-soaring] [gfaforum] RE: AAT tasking

[Matthew Gage]

And sadly, it still won’t help much.

With the advent of real time tracking using Flarm or ADSB, someone who wants to 
pay enough and has the time can implement their own private network and then 
receive real time tracking of everyone everywhere - even if the event is out of 
the public receivers. At the JWGC this year, we watched as time and again 
pilots were “steered” into the best climbs that others had had ) and left 20 
minutes earlier). The result was that they could close 30+ minutes over 150km.

Ban internet use? Well, just put the high gain antenna in the fin and you’re 
sorted anyway.

Once we have ADSB, then it’s even easier to do.

The conclusion I came to is that the best solutions are:

1. A series of GP starts, with each group being scored independently - multiple 
1st places each day. A number of sailing classes do this very successfully. 
Both fixed and AAT tasks work, but I suspect that place based scoring would be 
needed. However, everyone needs a score, not just the 1st 9. This is 
essentially what Allan suggested.

2. A time trial, with each glider starting at 2 minute intervals at a fixed 
start time. The current leader goes first, etc.

I don’t really like the time trial option though.




> On 5 Dec 2017, at 7:12 , Paul Mander  wrote:
> 
> Good suggestion, Mattew. Simple and logical. But the rule would have to be 
> written so as to prevent someone simply pressing their event button every 
> four minutes... 
> 
> On 4 Dec. 2017 22:58, "Matthew Scutter"  > wrote:
> Nothing like some poor weather to bring out the start proposals!
> 
> I like the recent pilot event start proposals.
> Background: For your logger to be IGC approved for use in competitions it 
> must support adding a pilot event - usually a button on the device or 
> similar. Quite easy on most loggers as per the requirements despite literally 
> no one having ever used one except in error as far as I know. 
> 
> 4 minutes prior to your desired start time, you press the button and log a 
> "Pilot Event" to your trace which indicates your intent to start. Then 4 
> minutes later you make a start. Everyone who sees you starting is unable to 
> follow unless they somehow saw you logging an event and logged one at the 
> same time. If you stuff it up you try again.
> 
> 4 minutes is roughly the minimum time at which you'll more or less never 
> catch someone of similar ability starting ahead of you.
> 
> No balls of glass heading out on task together.
> No point congregating in gaggles near the line because you can't follow other 
> pilots anyway.
> No waiting until 5pm to make a start because you want to start just behind 
> some other pilot.
> Now there is some element of skill in choosing a good start time again rather 
> than the status quo which is, in my opinion, the last pilot to start who 
> doesn't outland, wins.
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon, Dec 4, 2017 at 9:56 PM, Allan Barnes  > wrote:
> I feel that it is time we moved away from free starts, whether start line or 
> start points. I favour moving to a series of GP heats - maybe only 5 or so 
> pilots in each heat with a GP start asap after the last pilot in each heat 
> has launched. No gaggles, start games or delaying tactics. Each day the 
> pilots would be rotated to fly with a different set of opponents. After x 
> days, pilots would be split into ranked groups for the ‘finals’. Winner of 
> the ‘gold’ group would be the national champion. Pilots in the other groups 
> would compete for the first place in their group. 
> 
> 
> On Mon, 4 Dec 2017 at 21:15, Noel Roediger  > wrote:
> Mike.
> 
>  
> 
> Along time ago I proposed at a Narromine Pilots meeting, after nearly being 
> killed by a pilot playing for sheep stations at the start, there was a better 
> way to go.
> 
>  
> 
> I don’t think you flew those nats.
> 
>  
> 
> One of the major problems  apparent was too many aircraft converging on one 
> point to start.
> 
>  
> 
> Solution offered was to limit competitors to 2 per state in each class and 
> each class comp. be flown from separate sites that had the ability to launch  
> 14 sailplanes within a space established in their normal ops.
> 
>  
> 
> That idea was accepted and I was elected to the sports committee which I 
> attended on two occasions at my own cost with no GFA subsidy to put my case.
> 
>  
> 
> It was a waste of my time as I couldn’t overcome the egos of WW and  RW.
> 
>  
> 
> Noel.
> 
>  
> 
> From: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au 
> ] On Behalf Of Mike Borgelt
> Sent: Saturday, December 2, 2017 5:12 PM
> To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] AAT tasking
> 
>  
> 
> 
> The AAT is seen as a way of mitigating the risks 

Re: [Aus-soaring] [gfaforum] RE: AAT tasking

[Paul Mander]

Good suggestion, Mattew. Simple and logical. But the rule would have to be
written so as to prevent someone simply pressing their event button every
four minutes...

On 4 Dec. 2017 22:58, "Matthew Scutter"  wrote:

> Nothing like some poor weather to bring out the start proposals!
>
> I like the recent pilot event start proposals.
> Background: For your logger to be IGC approved for use in competitions it
> must support adding a pilot event - usually a button on the device or
> similar. Quite easy on most loggers as per the requirements despite
> literally no one having ever used one except in error as far as I know.
>
> 4 minutes prior to your desired start time, you press the button and log a
> "Pilot Event" to your trace which indicates your intent to start. Then 4
> minutes later you make a start. Everyone who sees you starting is unable to
> follow unless they somehow saw you logging an event and logged one at the
> same time. If you stuff it up you try again.
>
> 4 minutes is roughly the minimum time at which you'll more or less never
> catch someone of similar ability starting ahead of you.
>
> No balls of glass heading out on task together.
> No point congregating in gaggles near the line because you can't follow
> other pilots anyway.
> No waiting until 5pm to make a start because you want to start just behind
> some other pilot.
> Now there is some element of skill in choosing a good start time again
> rather than the status quo which is, in my opinion, the last pilot to start
> who doesn't outland, wins.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 4, 2017 at 9:56 PM, Allan Barnes 
> wrote:
>
>> I feel that it is time we moved away from free starts, whether start line
>> or start points. I favour moving to a series of GP heats - maybe only 5 or
>> so pilots in each heat with a GP start asap after the last pilot in each
>> heat has launched. No gaggles, start games or delaying tactics. Each day
>> the pilots would be rotated to fly with a different set of opponents. After
>> x days, pilots would be split into ranked groups for the ‘finals’. Winner
>> of the ‘gold’ group would be the national champion. Pilots in the other
>> groups would compete for the first place in their group.
>>
>>
>> On Mon, 4 Dec 2017 at 21:15, Noel Roediger 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Mike.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Along time ago I proposed at a Narromine Pilots meeting, after nearly
>>> being killed by a pilot playing for sheep stations at the start, there was
>>> a better way to go.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I don’t think you flew those nats.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> One of the major problems  apparent was too many aircraft converging on
>>> one point to start.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Solution offered was to limit competitors to 2 per state in each class
>>> and each class comp. be flown from separate sites that had the ability to
>>> launch  14 sailplanes within a space established in their normal ops.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> That idea was accepted and I was elected to the sports committee which I
>>> attended on two occasions at my own cost with no GFA subsidy to put my case.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> It was a waste of my time as I couldn’t overcome the egos of WW and  RW.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Noel.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au
>>> ] *On Behalf Of *Mike Borgelt
>>> *Sent:* Saturday, December 2, 2017 5:12 PM
>>> *To:* Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Aus-soaring] AAT tasking
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The AAT is seen as a way of mitigating the risks of mid airs in contests.
>>>
>>> Now let's see: Collision risk goes up as the SQUARE of the number of
>>> participants in any one contest. How do we reduce the total risk to find
>>> our champions?
>>>
>>> Mike
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *Borgelt Instruments *-
>>> *design & manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978*
>>> www.borgeltinstruments.com
>>> tel:   07 4635 5784 <(07)%204635%205784> overseas: int+61-7-4635
>>> 5784 <(07)%204635%205784>
>>> mob: 042835 5784 :  int+61-42835 5784
>>> P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia
>>>
>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>> Groups "Gliding Australia Forum" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>> an email to gfaforum+unsubscr...@glidingaustralia.org.
>>> To post to this group, send email to gfafo...@glidingaustralia.org.
>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/a/gl
>>> idingaustralia.org/group/gfaforum/.
>>>
>> --
>> Allan Barnes.
>> 0403-948-928 <0403%20948%20928>
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
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>> To post to this group, send email to 

Re: [Aus-soaring] [gfaforum] RE: AAT tasking

[Matthew Scutter]

How about a postal survey?

On Mon, Dec 4, 2017 at 10:31 PM, Jacques Graells 
wrote:

> The problem is not finding a solution to avoid start games and gaggles,
> first we need to convince the pilots that such practices are undesirable.
>
>
>
> Some pilots think that start games and gaggles are an inherent part of
> competition flying and believe it is good experience to train for them so
> Australian pilots are better prepared for international competitions.
> Unfortunately that happens endangering the lives of all the other pilots
> who join in the same event.
>
>
>
> I am convinced we would see more people in competitions if they felt safer.
>
>
>
> A democratic vote to see what competition and potential competition pilots
> really want would be a good start, not just asking to the converted during
> pilots meetings at competitions.
>
>
>
> Jacques
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Allan Barnes [mailto:allan.j.bar...@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Monday, 4 December 2017 10:26 PM
> *To:* Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. <
> aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au>; Noel Roediger  >
> *Cc:* gfafo...@glidingaustralia.org
> *Subject:* Re: [gfaforum] RE: [Aus-soaring] AAT tasking
>
>
>
> I feel that it is time we moved away from free starts, whether start line
> or start points. I favour moving to a series of GP heats - maybe only 5 or
> so pilots in each heat with a GP start asap after the last pilot in each
> heat has launched. No gaggles, start games or delaying tactics. Each day
> the pilots would be rotated to fly with a different set of opponents. After
> x days, pilots would be split into ranked groups for the ‘finals’. Winner
> of the ‘gold’ group would be the national champion. Pilots in the other
> groups would compete for the first place in their group.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, 4 Dec 2017 at 21:15, Noel Roediger 
> wrote:
>
> Mike.
>
>
>
> Along time ago I proposed at a Narromine Pilots meeting, after nearly
> being killed by a pilot playing for sheep stations at the start, there was
> a better way to go.
>
>
>
> I don’t think you flew those nats.
>
>
>
> One of the major problems  apparent was too many aircraft converging on
> one point to start.
>
>
>
> Solution offered was to limit competitors to 2 per state in each class and
> each class comp. be flown from separate sites that had the ability to
> launch  14 sailplanes within a space established in their normal ops.
>
>
>
> That idea was accepted and I was elected to the sports committee which I
> attended on two occasions at my own cost with no GFA subsidy to put my case.
>
>
>
> It was a waste of my time as I couldn’t overcome the egos of WW and  RW.
>
>
>
> Noel.
>
>
>
> *From:* Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au
> ] *On Behalf Of *Mike Borgelt
> *Sent:* Saturday, December 2, 2017 5:12 PM
> *To:* Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
> *Subject:* Re: [Aus-soaring] AAT tasking
>
>
>
>
> The AAT is seen as a way of mitigating the risks of mid airs in contests.
>
> Now let's see: Collision risk goes up as the SQUARE of the number of
> participants in any one contest. How do we reduce the total risk to find
> our champions?
>
> Mike
>
>
>
>
> *Borgelt Instruments *-
> *design & manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978*
> www.borgeltinstruments.com
> tel:   07 4635 5784 <(07)%204635%205784> overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784
> <(07)%204635%205784>
> mob: 042835 5784 :  int+61-42835 5784
> P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Gliding Australia Forum" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to gfaforum+unsubscr...@glidingaustralia.org.
> To post to this group, send email to gfafo...@glidingaustralia.org.
> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/a/
> glidingaustralia.org/group/gfaforum/.
>
> --
>
> Allan Barnes.
> 0403-948-928 <0403%20948%20928>
>
> --
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> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/a/
> glidingaustralia.org/group/gfaforum/.
>
>
>
>
> 
>
> Virus-free. www.avg.com
> 
>
>
>
> --
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> email to 

Re: [Aus-soaring] [gfaforum] RE: AAT tasking

[Jacques Graells]

The problem is not finding a solution to avoid start games and gaggles, first 
we need to convince the pilots that such practices are undesirable.

 

Some pilots think that start games and gaggles are an inherent part of 
competition flying and believe it is good experience to train for them so 
Australian pilots are better prepared for international competitions. 
Unfortunately that happens endangering the lives of all the other pilots who 
join in the same event.

 

I am convinced we would see more people in competitions if they felt safer.

 

A democratic vote to see what competition and potential competition pilots 
really want would be a good start, not just asking to the converted during 
pilots meetings at competitions.

 

Jacques

 

 

From: Allan Barnes [mailto:allan.j.bar...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Monday, 4 December 2017 10:26 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. 
; Noel Roediger 
Cc: gfafo...@glidingaustralia.org
Subject: Re: [gfaforum] RE: [Aus-soaring] AAT tasking

 

I feel that it is time we moved away from free starts, whether start line or 
start points. I favour moving to a series of GP heats - maybe only 5 or so 
pilots in each heat with a GP start asap after the last pilot in each heat has 
launched. No gaggles, start games or delaying tactics. Each day the pilots 
would be rotated to fly with a different set of opponents. After x days, pilots 
would be split into ranked groups for the ‘finals’. Winner of the ‘gold’ group 
would be the national champion. Pilots in the other groups would compete for 
the first place in their group. 

 

 

On Mon, 4 Dec 2017 at 21:15, Noel Roediger  > wrote:

Mike.

 

Along time ago I proposed at a Narromine Pilots meeting, after nearly being 
killed by a pilot playing for sheep stations at the start, there was a better 
way to go.

 

I don’t think you flew those nats.

 

One of the major problems  apparent was too many aircraft converging on one 
point to start.

 

Solution offered was to limit competitors to 2 per state in each class and each 
class comp. be flown from separate sites that had the ability to launch  14 
sailplanes within a space established in their normal ops.

 

That idea was accepted and I was elected to the sports committee which I 
attended on two occasions at my own cost with no GFA subsidy to put my case.

 

It was a waste of my time as I couldn’t overcome the egos of WW and  RW.

 

Noel.

 

From: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf Of 
Mike Borgelt
Sent: Saturday, December 2, 2017 5:12 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] AAT tasking

 


The AAT is seen as a way of mitigating the risks of mid airs in contests.

Now let's see: Collision risk goes up as the SQUARE of the number of 
participants in any one contest. How do we reduce the total risk to find our 
champions?

Mike






Borgelt Instruments - design & manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation 
since 1978
  www.borgeltinstruments.com
tel:   07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784
mob: 042835 5784 :  int+61-42835 5784
P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia 

-- 
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 .
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-- 

Allan Barnes.
0403-948-928

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Re: [Aus-soaring] [gfaforum] RE: AAT tasking

[Matthew Scutter]

Nothing like some poor weather to bring out the start proposals!

I like the recent pilot event start proposals.
Background: For your logger to be IGC approved for use in competitions it
must support adding a pilot event - usually a button on the device or
similar. Quite easy on most loggers as per the requirements despite
literally no one having ever used one except in error as far as I know.

4 minutes prior to your desired start time, you press the button and log a
"Pilot Event" to your trace which indicates your intent to start. Then 4
minutes later you make a start. Everyone who sees you starting is unable to
follow unless they somehow saw you logging an event and logged one at the
same time. If you stuff it up you try again.

4 minutes is roughly the minimum time at which you'll more or less never
catch someone of similar ability starting ahead of you.

No balls of glass heading out on task together.
No point congregating in gaggles near the line because you can't follow
other pilots anyway.
No waiting until 5pm to make a start because you want to start just behind
some other pilot.
Now there is some element of skill in choosing a good start time again
rather than the status quo which is, in my opinion, the last pilot to start
who doesn't outland, wins.



On Mon, Dec 4, 2017 at 9:56 PM, Allan Barnes 
wrote:

> I feel that it is time we moved away from free starts, whether start line
> or start points. I favour moving to a series of GP heats - maybe only 5 or
> so pilots in each heat with a GP start asap after the last pilot in each
> heat has launched. No gaggles, start games or delaying tactics. Each day
> the pilots would be rotated to fly with a different set of opponents. After
> x days, pilots would be split into ranked groups for the ‘finals’. Winner
> of the ‘gold’ group would be the national champion. Pilots in the other
> groups would compete for the first place in their group.
>
>
> On Mon, 4 Dec 2017 at 21:15, Noel Roediger 
> wrote:
>
>> Mike.
>>
>>
>>
>> Along time ago I proposed at a Narromine Pilots meeting, after nearly
>> being killed by a pilot playing for sheep stations at the start, there was
>> a better way to go.
>>
>>
>>
>> I don’t think you flew those nats.
>>
>>
>>
>> One of the major problems  apparent was too many aircraft converging on
>> one point to start.
>>
>>
>>
>> Solution offered was to limit competitors to 2 per state in each class
>> and each class comp. be flown from separate sites that had the ability to
>> launch  14 sailplanes within a space established in their normal ops.
>>
>>
>>
>> That idea was accepted and I was elected to the sports committee which I
>> attended on two occasions at my own cost with no GFA subsidy to put my case.
>>
>>
>>
>> It was a waste of my time as I couldn’t overcome the egos of WW and  RW.
>>
>>
>>
>> Noel.
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au
>> ] *On Behalf Of *Mike Borgelt
>> *Sent:* Saturday, December 2, 2017 5:12 PM
>> *To:* Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
>> *Subject:* Re: [Aus-soaring] AAT tasking
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> The AAT is seen as a way of mitigating the risks of mid airs in contests.
>>
>> Now let's see: Collision risk goes up as the SQUARE of the number of
>> participants in any one contest. How do we reduce the total risk to find
>> our champions?
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *Borgelt Instruments *-
>> *design & manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978*
>> www.borgeltinstruments.com
>> tel:   07 4635 5784 <(07)%204635%205784> overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784
>> <(07)%204635%205784>
>> mob: 042835 5784 :  int+61-42835 5784
>> P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "Gliding Australia Forum" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
>> email to gfaforum+unsubscr...@glidingaustralia.org.
>> To post to this group, send email to gfafo...@glidingaustralia.org.
>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/a/
>> glidingaustralia.org/group/gfaforum/.
>>
> --
> Allan Barnes.
> 0403-948-928 <0403%20948%20928>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Gliding Australia Forum" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
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> To post to this group, send email to gfafo...@glidingaustralia.org.
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> glidingaustralia.org/group/gfaforum/.
>
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Re: [Aus-soaring] AAT tasking

[Noel Roediger]

Mike.

 

Along time ago I proposed at a Narromine Pilots meeting, after nearly being
killed by a pilot playing for sheep stations at the start, there was a
better way to go.

 

I don't think you flew those nats.

 

One of the major problems  apparent was too many aircraft converging on one
point to start.

 

Solution offered was to limit competitors to 2 per state in each class and
each class comp. be flown from separate sites that had the ability to launch
14 sailplanes within a space established in their normal ops.

 

That idea was accepted and I was elected to the sports committee which I
attended on two occasions at my own cost with no GFA subsidy to put my case.

 

It was a waste of my time as I couldn't overcome the egos of WW and  RW.

 

Noel.

 

From: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf
Of Mike Borgelt
Sent: Saturday, December 2, 2017 5:12 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] AAT tasking

 


The AAT is seen as a way of mitigating the risks of mid airs in contests.

Now let's see: Collision risk goes up as the SQUARE of the number of
participants in any one contest. How do we reduce the total risk to find our
champions?

Mike







Borgelt Instruments - design & manufacture of quality soaring
instrumentation since 1978
  www.borgeltinstruments.com
tel:   07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784
mob: 042835 5784 :  int+61-42835 5784
P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia 

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