Re: [Aus-soaring] 100% electric VTOL
CareersWhile we are growing quickly, we are exceptionally selective in who we hire. Your passion and ability should be demonstrated in your professional and academic achievements. You should be curious, driven, and devoted to your area of excellence. We look for candidates with both raw intellect and an exceptional ability to execute. We live for results, employ hierarchy only to enhance efficiency, and deplore bureaucracy.Joby Aviation is a privately-held company and headquartered in Santa Cruz, California. We offer a competitive compensation package, benefits, and a dynamic culture (not to mention the three awesome meals we throw in each day!).If you embrace our audacious vision and wish to join us in this exciting challenge that lies before us, please send a resume and cover letter to j...@aviation.com.full-Time OpeningsAll positions require a B.S. degree and a strong interest in aviation. I think i have a degree in BS From: ec...@internode.on.net To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 17:39:56 +1030 Subject: [Aus-soaring] 100% electric VTOL Hello all! Have a look and see how the beautiful fuselage design of the ASW 27,ASW 28 and ASG 29 can be misused! http://www.jobyaviation.com/animation Kind regards Bernard ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] 100% electric VTOL
Sorry Bernard, It is a Sparrowhawk from Windward performance, not an ASW or ASG. I like the e-volo copter design. This one looks like it owes something to that concept of multiple small rotors. Mike At 05:09 PM 27/02/2013, you wrote: Hello all! Have a look and see how the beautiful fuselage design of the ASW 27,ASW 28 and ASG 29 can be misused! http://www.jobyaviation.com/animation Kind regards Bernard ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] 100% electric VTOL
Come to think about it - who left the SparrowHawk in the hangar with the e-volocopter overnight? This thing could actually work. Now add a small gas turbine driving an alternator and some kerosene and you can extend the range. This thing could actually work quite well. Mike At 06:52 PM 27/02/2013, you wrote: Sorry Bernard, It is a Sparrowhawk from Windward performance, not an ASW or ASG. I like the e-volo copter design. This one looks like it owes something to that concept of multiple small rotors. Mike At 05:09 PM 27/02/2013, you wrote: Hello all! Have a look and see how the beautiful fuselage design of the ASW 27,ASW 28 and ASG 29 can be misused! http://www.jobyaviation.com/animation Kind regards Bernard ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] 100% electric VTOL
Yep, Pour the Kero Over it and short the lipo batteries Michael Scutter, Education Training Consultant, Email: michael_scut...@yahoo.com.au Mobile: 0417822330 (Int +614178223300) skype://michaelscutter I don't say anything here that I would not say to your face. From: Mike Borgelt mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Wednesday, 27 February 2013 7:34 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] 100% electric VTOL Come to think about it - who left the SparrowHawk in the hangar with the e-volocopter overnight? This thing could actually work. Now add a small gas turbine driving an alternator and some kerosene and you can extend the range. This thing could actually work quite well. Mike At 06:52 PM 27/02/2013, you wrote: Sorry Bernard, It is a Sparrowhawk from Windward performance, not an ASW or ASG. I like the e-volo copter design. This one looks like it owes something to that concept of multiple small rotors. Mike At 05:09 PM 27/02/2013, you wrote: Hello all! Have a look and see how the beautiful fuselage design of the ASW 27,ASW 28 and ASG 29 can be misused! http://www.jobyaviation.com/animation Kind regards Bernard ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] LiFePo4
Nice one Arie. You do bring a bit of costing perspective into the argument here. The YouTube footage is interesting (horrific?), but I suspect basically irrelevant. I think that any glider pilot who knows anything about the problem, does not want to experience an inflight cockpit fire UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES. I know of one example, where the pilot was VERY happy to have survived the experience - without having to bail out. He reported that fire - as in burning - was NOT the problem. He reported that the amount of fumes and smoke generated in an incredibly short time from the ignition of the plastic wire covering due to shorting of the electrical system was in fact the primary problem. For this unfortunate pilot, there were really two problems: first he had to be able to breathe, and secondly he had to be able to see what you are doing - basically impossible in a cockpit filled with smoke! Re your statement willing to replace a couple of batteries each year Probably a slip of the pen: As Bernard has pointed out a high quality SLA gel cell type battery MAY last up to 9 or 10 years, but this is hardly likely to be the norm. Five - seven years seems to be much more realistic estimate. As far as I can tell, the life of the LiFePo4 batteries is not claimed to be any better than this latter figure. At this point in time, LiFePo4 batteries are MUCH more expensive. However I expect that in a few years time the price will have fallen, and many glider pilots will be using these new fangled devices,. I suspect that I will need to replace my current glider batteries in the near future. I do not have a max AUW of the non-loading bearing parts problem - one valid argument for lighter batteries - and my power consumption figures - high power consumption requirements are another valid argument for using LoFePo4 - are relatively modest, so I have no intention of using LifePo4 batteries for the replacement. What this whole discussion has crystallised for me is the requirement, regardless of the type of battery selected, is to always use a high quality battery manufactured by a reputable factory who stands behind their product. [I have in the past tried cheap batteries, and regretted it.] Regards, Gary - Original Message - From: Arie van Spronssen To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 6:56 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] LiFePo4 Hi, When people start talking of glider batteries I laugh at their logic. We have a toy that cost anywhere between 2 - 10k and upwards to keep in the air each year (not including getting to and from the airfield and actually getting it in the air) and they are not willing to replace a couple of batteries each year for well under a $100. These fancy batteries may be ok but in the vast majority of gliders the simple still works best and is cheap and safe. Yes I do play with these fancy batteries in my radio control toys but with great care and they are always stored in a lipo safe bag. You only have to watch this video to agree http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mw8jb1KmAG8 yes I know the newer ones are better but these are only small and look at how they go up and even the newer ones can still have problems. regards, Arie On 27/02/2013 12:52 PM, Future Aviation wrote: Hello all It just occurred to me that I have omitted to thank John Parncutt for his research and his willingness to share the findings with us. Of course, in this context Mike Borgelt's professional advice must also be mentioned. Both contributions are extremely useful to many of my gliding friends including myself. Many thanks to both of you! Believe it or not, the last set of SLA batteries powering the engine circuit in my ASH 25 lasted for 10 years. At the time I opted for the most expensive SLA batteries I could get my hands on and now it appears that the old saying holds indeed true. You only get what you Kind regards to all. Bernard Eckey -Original Message- From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Mike Borgelt Sent: Wednesday, 27 February 2013 11:22 AM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] LiFePo4 As I said yesterday, do proper engineering on your battery installation. If you don't have real numbers for temperature limits, discharge curves at various rates, charging characteristics etc etc you aren't doing engineering, you're just guessing. A battery designed to start a racing motorbike and then be recharged by the alternator and floated at that voltage likely has quite different characteristics, design and longevity from one designed for charging and deep discharging over several hours then recharging. You can also just stop and get off the bike when the battery catches fire. Li batteries all need individual cell monitoring during charge
Re: [Aus-soaring] 100% electric VTOL
Mike, Spot on! Has the Co actually produced a prototype? It seems highly doubtful. Lots of engines there - to go wrong. What happens if you loose 1, 2 , 3, all of them at the same time? How much? I like the concept of flying it from the back yard to the local club for a game of golf. Criminals might be able to make good use of the machine too! Cheers Gary - Original Message - From: Mike Borgelt mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 7:52 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] 100% electric VTOL Sorry Bernard, It is a Sparrowhawk from Windward performance, not an ASW or ASG. I like the e-volo copter design. This one looks like it owes something to that concept of multiple small rotors. Mike At 05:09 PM 27/02/2013, you wrote: Hello all! Have a look and see how the beautiful fuselage design of the ASW 27,ASW 28 and ASG 29 can be misused! http://www.jobyaviation.com/animation Kind regards Bernard ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2238 / Virus Database: 2641/5635 - Release Date: 02/26/13 ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Easter Vintage Regatta at HVGC
Paul, Even ASH are welcome. However, as they are not as pretty as a K6 or just about any other vintage glider they and their pilots are heavily handicapped during any flying and social event! Paul On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 8:56 PM, Paul Mander p...@mander.net.au wrote: Sounds great. Does an ASH count as vintage??? ** ** *From:* aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] *On Behalf Of *Paul Dickson *Sent:* Wednesday, 27 February 2013 8:42 PM *To:* Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. *Subject:* [Aus-soaring] Easter Vintage Regatta at HVGC ** ** The Hunter Valley Gliding Club at Warkworth will be once again holding the Vintage Regatta over Easter 2013 and owners of vintage gliders and all pilots are invited to join us for a fun friendly flying regatta. ** ** The brand new clubhouse toilet block will be in use and there is plenty of camping/caravan space available on site. There is also limited bunkhouse accommodation in the old clubhouse available or many hotel or guest house options available in Broke or Singleton. Local accommodation options are listed at http://www.brokefordwich.com.au/index.php?page=stay and most of these are within 15 to 20 minutes drive of the club. ** ** There will be launches available (aerotow only, with 60kt min. airspeed) from Saturday 23rd March to Monday 1st April. At this stage there are instructors available for the weekends Easter break but some of the days mid week may be independent operator days only. ** ** Depending on the weather, there will be some tasks set suitable for a fun and friendly regatta with options available for those who want to stretch their plastic wings in the surrounding area. Have a look at the Task Planner on the HVGC website at http://www.hvgc.com.au/fltlog/TaskPlanner.php for some of the cross country options from Warkworth. ** ** Catering will be provided for the week and the Sunday night of Easter will be a prize giving night. ** ** Some of the prizes will include: • Best Vintage Glider • Best Flight in a Vintage Glider • Best OLC score (in any glider) • Best or Worst Retrieve • And many more… ** ** In the event of inclement weather or for non-flying family members there will be visits to some of the local attractions including; Wine Tasting in the local vineyards, The Hunter Valley Gardens or RAAF Fighter World Museum. ** ** Why not come and join us for a fun flying weekend? ** ** There are a few photos of previous Easter weekends on the club website at http://www.hvgc.com.au/gallery/Easter-Regatta-2011 http://www.hvgc.com.au/blog/?p=586 to see what you have been missing out on. ** ** Paul Dickson ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] 100% electric VTOL
Hi Mike! You failed to mention that even the Sparrowhawk fuselage is a pretty good copy of the ASW and ASG series of sailplanes. It seems rather fashionable to copy the fuselage design of Schleicher gliders these days. The Jonker brothers have perfected the art. They simply made a mould from a new ASH 26 fuselage and used it on their JS1. Only the thread of legal action made them pay royalties in the end. Kind regards Bernard -Original Message- From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Mike Borgelt Sent: Wednesday, 27 February 2013 7:22 PM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] 100% electric VTOL Sorry Bernard, It is a Sparrowhawk from Windward performance, not an ASW or ASG. I like the e-volo copter design. This one looks like it owes something to that concept of multiple small rotors. Mike At 05:09 PM 27/02/2013, you wrote: Hello all! Have a look and see how the beautiful fuselage design of the ASW 27,ASW 28 and ASG 29 can be misused! http://www.jobyaviation.com/animation Kind regards Bernard ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
[Aus-soaring] Darlng Downs weather for the weekend of 2 -3 March 2012
Hi folks The weekend forecast is available at the link below. Unfortunately, Saturday looks to be rainy with thunderstorms but Sunday should be soarable. I will update tomorrow as usual. -- Robert Hartha...@interweft.com.au Darling Downs gliding weather information +61 438 385 533 ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Easter Vintage Regatta at HVGC
I think just being there will be a privilege, and I agree, the old birds will be a sight to see. Thanks for the welcome. From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Paul Dickson Sent: Wednesday, 27 February 2013 9:15 PM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Easter Vintage Regatta at HVGC Paul, Even ASH are welcome. However, as they are not as pretty as a K6 or just about any other vintage glider they and their pilots are heavily handicapped during any flying and social event! Paul On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 8:56 PM, Paul Mander p...@mander.net.au wrote: Sounds great. Does an ASH count as vintage??? From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Paul Dickson Sent: Wednesday, 27 February 2013 8:42 PM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: [Aus-soaring] Easter Vintage Regatta at HVGC The Hunter Valley Gliding Club at Warkworth will be once again holding the Vintage Regatta over Easter 2013 and owners of vintage gliders and all pilots are invited to join us for a fun friendly flying regatta. The brand new clubhouse toilet block will be in use and there is plenty of camping/caravan space available on site. There is also limited bunkhouse accommodation in the old clubhouse available or many hotel or guest house options available in Broke or Singleton. Local accommodation options are listed at http://www.brokefordwich.com.au/index.php?page=stay and most of these are within 15 to 20 minutes drive of the club. There will be launches available (aerotow only, with 60kt min. airspeed) from Saturday 23rd March to Monday 1st April. At this stage there are instructors available for the weekends Easter break but some of the days mid week may be independent operator days only. Depending on the weather, there will be some tasks set suitable for a fun and friendly regatta with options available for those who want to stretch their plastic wings in the surrounding area. Have a look at the Task Planner on the HVGC website at http://www.hvgc.com.au/fltlog/TaskPlanner.php for some of the cross country options from Warkworth. Catering will be provided for the week and the Sunday night of Easter will be a prize giving night. Some of the prizes will include: . Best Vintage Glider . Best Flight in a Vintage Glider . Best OLC score (in any glider) . Best or Worst Retrieve . And many more. In the event of inclement weather or for non-flying family members there will be visits to some of the local attractions including; Wine Tasting in the local vineyards, The Hunter Valley Gardens or RAAF Fighter World Museum. Why not come and join us for a fun flying weekend? There are a few photos of previous Easter weekends on the club website at http://www.hvgc.com.au/gallery/Easter-Regatta-2011 http://www.hvgc.com.au/blog/?p=586 to see what you have been missing out on. Paul Dickson ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] LiFePo4 ~ Why not move to 24 volt systems?
My contribution to the battery aspect of this thread is to question why we are so infatuated by 12 volts? [I once wrote Standards, and Standards often impede innovation] I also agree that the electrical systems must be designed and implemented taking into consideration volts, amps, temperature high and low, wiring, insulation, noxious gases, fusing, short circuit and thermal runaway, G load, weight and many other factors At Oshkosh 2006 the Blue Mountains Avionics presentation said for light aircraft the move to 24 volt systems was a no brainer, just so logical. Most instrumentation and radio's require 10 volts and a 12 volt system decays to 10 volt reasonably fast. Microair's need probably 10.5 before the transmitter goes garbled, Cambridge falls over at about 8 volts. Mike could perhaps comment on the minimums for Borgelt instruments. PDA's and XCSoar have a USB 5 volt input so may work longer on a 12 volt system? Some avionics are designed for 35 volt DC maximum input [but XCOM and Microair apparently have 16 ~ 17 volt maximum input specification] But starting with 24 volts gets much more out of the battery before avionics fail. Even moving to say 16 volt to keep within radio specification could lead to increased useful battery life. Cranking amps for starter motors is at the high drain end of the drain spectrum but arguably is early in a batteries discharge cycle in the glider application. So why not have 16 ~ 24 volt systems in gliders? Alan Wilson [ARMIT Comm Eng] Canberra From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of gstev...@bigpond.com Sent: Wednesday, 27 February, 2013 8:58 PM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] LiFePo4 Nice one Arie. You do bring a bit of costing perspective into the argument here. The YouTube footage is interesting (horrific?), but I suspect basically irrelevant. I think that any glider pilot who knows anything about the problem, does not want to experience an inflight cockpit fire UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES. I know of one example, where the pilot was VERY happy to have survived the experience - without having to bail out. He reported that fire - as in burning - was NOT the problem. He reported that the amount of fumes and smoke generated in an incredibly short time from the ignition of the plastic wire covering due to shorting of the electrical system was in fact the primary problem. For this unfortunate pilot, there were really two problems: first he had to be able to breathe, and secondly he had to be able to see what you are doing - basically impossible in a cockpit filled with smoke! Re your statement willing to replace a couple of batteries each year Probably a slip of the pen: As Bernard has pointed out a high quality SLA gel cell type battery MAY last up to 9 or 10 years, but this is hardly likely to be the norm. Five - seven years seems to be much more realistic estimate. As far as I can tell, the life of the LiFePo4 batteries is not claimed to be any better than this latter figure. At this point in time, LiFePo4 batteries are MUCH more expensive. However I expect that in a few years time the price will have fallen, and many glider pilots will be using these new fangled devices,. I suspect that I will need to replace my current glider batteries in the near future. I do not have a max AUW of the non-loading bearing parts problem - one valid argument for lighter batteries - and my power consumption figures - high power consumption requirements are another valid argument for using LoFePo4 - are relatively modest, so I have no intention of using LifePo4 batteries for the replacement. What this whole discussion has crystallised for me is the requirement, regardless of the type of battery selected, is to always use a high quality battery manufactured by a reputable factory who stands behind their product. [I have in the past tried cheap batteries, and regretted it.] Regards, Gary - Original Message - From: Arie van Spronssen mailto:a...@internode.on.net To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. mailto:aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 6:56 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] LiFePo4 Hi, When people start talking of glider batteries I laugh at their logic. We have a toy that cost anywhere between 2 - 10k and upwards to keep in the air each year (not including getting to and from the airfield and actually getting it in the air) and they are not willing to replace a couple of batteries each year for well under a $100. These fancy batteries may be ok but in the vast majority of gliders the simple still works best and is cheap and safe. Yes I do play with these fancy batteries in my radio control toys but with great care and they are always stored in a lipo safe bag. You only have to watch this video to agree
Re: [Aus-soaring] Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 113, Issue 55
4. Re: LiFePo4 ~ Why not move to 24 volt systems? (Alan Wilson) Message: 4 Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 09:13:33 +1100 From: Alan Wilson a...@ozemail.com.au Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] LiFePo4 ~ Why not move to 24 volt systems? To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.' aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Message-ID: 005501ce1537$aedee1b0$0c9ca510$@ozemail.com.au Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii My contribution to the battery aspect of this thread is to question why we are so infatuated by 12 volts? [I once wrote Standards, and Standards often impede innovation] I also agree that the electrical systems must be designed and implemented taking into consideration volts, amps, temperature high and low, wiring, insulation, noxious gases, fusing, short circuit and thermal runaway, G load, weight and many other factors At Oshkosh 2006 the Blue Mountains Avionics presentation said for light aircraft the move to 24 volt systems was a no brainer, just so logical. Most instrumentation and radio's require 10 volts and a 12 volt system decays to 10 volt reasonably fast. Microair's need probably 10.5 before the transmitter goes garbled, Cambridge falls over at about 8 volts. Mike could perhaps comment on the minimums for Borgelt instruments. PDA's and XCSoar have a USB 5 volt input so may work longer on a 12 volt system? Some avionics are designed for 35 volt DC maximum input [but XCOM and Microair apparently have 16 ~ 17 volt maximum input specification] But starting with 24 volts gets much more out of the battery before avionics fail. Even moving to say 16 volt to keep within radio specification could lead to increased useful battery life. Cranking amps for starter motors is at the high drain end of the drain spectrum but arguably is early in a batteries discharge cycle in the glider application. So why not have 16 ~ 24 volt systems in gliders? Alan Wilson [ARMIT Comm Eng] Canberra I would argue the best reason not to go to 24Volts over 12 volts would be the option of 48 volts. Still under the qualified 50 + volts for professional installation, a 48 volt system would haave many advantages over both minor voltages (and again over 6V systems, if memory goes back that far) Its no big issue to drop voltage for specific requirements, you can siphon off 5, 12 or 24 volts easily with simple electronics. ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] 100% electric VTOL
At 06:27 AM 28/02/2013, you wrote: Hi Mike! You failed to mention that even the Sparrowhawk fuselage is a pretty good copy of the ASW and ASG series of sailplanes. I'm sure Greg Cole, the designer of the Sparrowhawk and Duckhawk, would disagree. I've seen a Sparrowhawk up close (lifted it off the ground actually) and I don't see the resemblance apart from a cockpit big enough for a pilot and a pod and boom design. The canopy design is different also. To the general public all these white things with wings look the same. The differences are minor and subtle. For Gary, multiple motors is a feature not a bug. You can lose one or two without problems. That thing has 10% installed power over the rated max. A quad redundant autopilot system should occupy a cube 50mm on a side and you really in the hover just control motor power. The motors are 10KW and will be 3 phase AC outrunners where the coils are stationary in the middle of the motor and there are no brushes. Think jet reliability but without the high temperatures which should make them even better. I bet it has a ballistic parachute too as well as being able to land like a glider. Not too shabby. Note that you aren't in VTOL mode for very long. It isn't a helicopter designed to sometimes carry underslung loads etc or rescue people from the ocean or clearings in the trees. Range extenders like small gas turbines are under serious consideration for hybrid cars. I know some people in the UK working on a 100mm diameter axial flow turbine for this. While I don't have much time for hybrid or all electric cars, electric propulsion makes sense for unusual air vehicles like this and the e-volo machine because you can easily distribute the propulsion into many multiple redundant modules. Hard to do any other way. It is about time these things came along. Helicopters are recognisably the same as what Igor Sikorsky sucessfully flew in 1939 or so and small light aircraft are still using direct drive air cooled engines, stressed skin construction, i.e DC-1 technology from nearly 80 years ago. Mike ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] LiFePo4 ~ Why not move to 24 volt systems?
You usually move to higher voltage to transmit greater power at the same or lower current which reduces wiring weight. I suspect in light aircraft the power requirement for the electrics is driven by systems other than the avionics i.e electrically driven hydraulic pumps or simply electrically driven flaps, landing gear retract etc. There is consideration of going to 42 volts for cars for this reason. B50s work down to 10 volts, B300/B500/600/800 a little less. B400 and B700 down to 4 volts.(internal boost regulator cuts in). A 12 v nominal SLA battery is about to die at 11V terminal voltage when discharged at typical glider rates. If you are losing more than 0.2 volts or so between the battery and the instrument you need to fix the wiring, fuses switches etc. There doesn't seem to be any overwhelming reason to go to 24 volts in gliders. I'll bet most 24 or 28 volt avionics has a switch mode regulator to get 14 volts before going to the rest of the gadget or simply to the 5 volts or so required by the logic circuits. If we go to electric flaps and aircon like the Duckhawk this may change. I think it has something like a 54 A-H battery. Mike At 08:13 AM 28/02/2013, you wrote: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary==_NextPart_000_0056_01CE1593.E2557430 Content-Language: en-us My contribution to the battery aspect of this thread is to question why we are so infatuated by 12 volts? [I once wrote Standards, and Standards often impede innovation] I also agree that the electrical systems must be designed and implemented taking into consideration volts, amps, temperature high and low, wiring, insulation, noxious gases, fusing, short circuit and thermal runaway, G load, weight and many other factors At Oshkosh 2006 the Blue Mountains Avionics presentation said for light aircraft the move to 24 volt systems was a no brainer, just so logical. Most instrumentation and radio's require 10 volts and a 12 volt system decays to 10 volt reasonably fast. Microair's need probably 10.5 before the transmitter goes garbled, Cambridge falls over at about 8 volts. Mike could perhaps comment on the minimums for Borgelt instruments. PDA's and XCSoar have a USB 5 volt input so may work longer on a 12 volt system? Some avionics are designed for 35 volt DC maximum input [but XCOM and Microair apparently have 16 ~ 17 volt maximum input specification] But starting with 24 volts gets much more out of the battery before avionics fail. Even moving to say 16 volt to keep within radio specification could lead to increased useful battery life. Cranking amps for starter motors is at the high drain end of the drain spectrum but arguably is early in a batteries discharge cycle in the glider application. So why not have 16 ~ 24 volt systems in gliders? Alan Wilson [ARMIT Comm Eng] Canberra From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of gstev...@bigpond.com Sent: Wednesday, 27 February, 2013 8:58 PM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] LiFePo4 Nice one Arie. You do bring a bit of costing perspective into the argument here. The YouTube footage is interesting (horrific?), but I suspect basically irrelevant. I think that any glider pilot who knows anything about the problem, does not want to experience an inflight cockpit fire UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES. I know of one example, where the pilot was VERY happy to have survived the experience - without having to bail out. He reported that fire - as in burning - was NOT the problem. He reported that the amount of fumes and smoke generated in an incredibly short time from the ignition of the plastic wire covering due to shorting of the electrical system was in fact the primary problem. For this unfortunate pilot, there were really two problems: first he had to be able to breathe, and secondly he had to be able to see what you are doing - basically impossible in a cockpit filled with smoke! Re your statement willing to replace a couple of batteries each year Probably a slip of the pen: As Bernard has pointed out a high quality SLA gel cell type battery MAY last up to 9 or 10 years, but this is hardly likely to be the norm. Five - seven years seems to be much more realistic estimate. As far as I can tell, the life of the LiFePo4 batteries is not claimed to be any better than this latter figure. At this point in time, LiFePo4 batteries are MUCH more expensive. However I expect that in a few years time the price will have fallen, and many glider pilots will be using these new fangled devices,. I suspect that I will need to replace my current glider batteries in the near future. I do not have a max AUW of the non-loading bearing parts problem - one valid argument for lighter batteries - and my power consumption figures - high power consumption requirements are another valid
Re: [Aus-soaring] LiFePo4 ~ Why not move to 24 volt systems?
24 or 28 volts doubles the number of cells in the battery. Not good when using NiMH or Li technolgy. Mike At 10:44 AM 28/02/2013, you wrote: You usually move to higher voltage to transmit greater power at the same or lower current which reduces wiring weight. I suspect in light aircraft the power requirement for the electrics is driven by systems other than the avionics i.e electrically driven hydraulic pumps or simply electrically driven flaps, landing gear retract etc. There is consideration of going to 42 volts for cars for this reason. B50s work down to 10 volts, B300/B500/600/800 a little less. B400 and B700 down to 4 volts.(internal boost regulator cuts in). A 12 v nominal SLA battery is about to die at 11V terminal voltage when discharged at typical glider rates. If you are losing more than 0.2 volts or so between the battery and the instrument you need to fix the wiring, fuses switches etc. There doesn't seem to be any overwhelming reason to go to 24 volts in gliders. I'll bet most 24 or 28 volt avionics has a switch mode regulator to get 14 volts before going to the rest of the gadget or simply to the 5 volts or so required by the logic circuits. If we go to electric flaps and aircon like the Duckhawk this may change. I think it has something like a 54 A-H battery. Mike At 08:13 AM 28/02/2013, you wrote: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary==_NextPart_000_0056_01CE1593.E2557430 Content-Language: en-us My contribution to the battery aspect of this thread is to question why we are so infatuated by 12 volts? [I once wrote Standards, and Standards often impede innovation] I also agree that the electrical systems must be designed and implemented taking into consideration volts, amps, temperature high and low, wiring, insulation, noxious gases, fusing, short circuit and thermal runaway, G load, weight and many other factors At Oshkosh 2006 the Blue Mountains Avionics presentation said for light aircraft the move to 24 volt systems was a no brainer, just so logical. Most instrumentation and radio's require 10 volts and a 12 volt system decays to 10 volt reasonably fast. Microair's need probably 10.5 before the transmitter goes garbled, Cambridge falls over at about 8 volts. Mike could perhaps comment on the minimums for Borgelt instruments. PDA's and XCSoar have a USB 5 volt input so may work longer on a 12 volt system? Some avionics are designed for 35 volt DC maximum input [but XCOM and Microair apparently have 16 ~ 17 volt maximum input specification] But starting with 24 volts gets much more out of the battery before avionics fail. Even moving to say 16 volt to keep within radio specification could lead to increased useful battery life. Cranking amps for starter motors is at the high drain end of the drain spectrum but arguably is early in a batteries discharge cycle in the glider application. So why not have 16 ~ 24 volt systems in gliders? Alan Wilson [ARMIT Comm Eng] Canberra From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [ mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of gstev...@bigpond.com Sent: Wednesday, 27 February, 2013 8:58 PM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] LiFePo4 Nice one Arie. You do bring a bit of costing perspective into the argument here. The YouTube footage is interesting (horrific?), but I suspect basically irrelevant. I think that any glider pilot who knows anything about the problem, does not want to experience an inflight cockpit fire UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES. I know of one example, where the pilot was VERY happy to have survived the experience - without having to bail out. He reported that fire - as in burning - was NOT the problem. He reported that the amount of fumes and smoke generated in an incredibly short time from the ignition of the plastic wire covering due to shorting of the electrical system was in fact the primary problem. For this unfortunate pilot, there were really two problems: first he had to be able to breathe, and secondly he had to be able to see what you are doing - basically impossible in a cockpit filled with smoke! Re your statement willing to replace a couple of batteries each year Probably a slip of the pen: As Bernard has pointed out a high quality SLA gel cell type battery MAY last up to 9 or 10 years, but this is hardly likely to be the norm. Five - seven years seems to be much more realistic estimate. As far as I can tell, the life of the LiFePo4 batteries is not claimed to be any better than this latter figure. At this point in time, LiFePo4 batteries are MUCH more expensive. However I expect that in a few years time the price will have fallen, and many glider pilots will be using these new fangled devices,. I suspect that I will need to replace my current glider batteries in the near future. I do not have a max AUW of the non-loading bearing parts
[Aus-soaring] Simple question straw poll, you can reply offlist
Simple Question; When flying a glider, is it OK to taxy off the runway after landing to position the glider close to the rear of the launch grid? YES or NO or It depends.. (give a reason) Offlist replies preferred From latest MOSP Taxying after landing Sailplanes should make a straight approach and landing run parallel to the runway and must not taxy clear of the runway unless operationally required and only if no other aircraft can land alongside in the direction of taxi. Powered sailplanes may taxi under power providing it is safe to do so. ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] LiFePo4
On 27/02/2013, at 6:56 PM, Arie van Spronssen a...@internode.on.net wrote: Hi, When people start talking of glider batteries I laugh at their logic. We have a toy that cost anywhere between 2 - 10k and upwards to keep in the air each year (not including getting to and from the airfield and actually getting it in the air) and they are not willing to replace a couple of batteries each year for well under a $100. These fancy batteries may be ok but in the vast majority of gliders the simple still works best and is cheap and safe. Yes I do play with these fancy batteries in my radio control toys but with great care and they are always stored in a lipo safe bag. You only have to watch this video to agree http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mw8jb1KmAG8 yes I know the newer ones are better but these are only small and look at how they go up and even the newer ones can still have problems. Wow, you have a lot more money than me. I don't spend anywhere near that much, not even your lower amount, even including tows. Certainly saving $100 a year is significant to me. Which is of course why I also use SLA :-) Scott smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Simple question straw poll, you can reply offlist
Generally yes, the it depends on not hitting anything if you lose control or brakes fail. Tom PS: the bit about only if nobody can land beside you is important too.___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] LiFePo4 ~ Why not move to 24 volt systems?
Aircon? - I want one! :)___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
[Aus-soaring] glider register
can anyonwe tell me how to find the totl australian glider register? ron On 27 February 2013 20:55, tom claffey to...@yahoo.com wrote: Aircon? - I want one! :) -- * From: * Mike Borgelt mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com; * To: * Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net; * Subject: * Re: [Aus-soaring] LiFePo4 ~ Why not move to 24 volt systems? * Sent: * Thu, Feb 28, 2013 12:44:04 AM You usually move to higher voltage to transmit greater power at the same or lower current which reduces wiring weight. I suspect in light aircraft the power requirement for the electrics is driven by systems other than the avionics i.e electrically driven hydraulic pumps or simply electrically driven flaps, landing gear retract etc. There is consideration of going to 42 volts for cars for this reason. B50s work down to 10 volts, B300/B500/600/800 a little less. B400 and B700 down to 4 volts.(internal boost regulator cuts in). A 12 v nominal SLA battery is about to die at 11V terminal voltage when discharged at typical glider rates. If you are losing more than 0.2 volts or so between the battery and the instrument you need to fix the wiring, fuses switches etc. There doesn't seem to be any overwhelming reason to go to 24 volts in gliders. I'll bet most 24 or 28 volt avionics has a switch mode regulator to get 14 volts before going to the rest of the gadget or simply to the 5 volts or so required by the logic circuits. If we go to electric flaps and aircon like the Duckhawk this may change. I think it has something like a 54 A-H battery. Mike At 08:13 AM 28/02/2013, you wrote: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary==_NextPart_000_0056_01CE1593.E2557430 Content-Language: en-us My contribution to the battery aspect of this thread is to question why we are so infatuated by 12 volts? [I once wrote Standards, and Standards often impede innovation] I also agree that the electrical systems must be designed and implemented taking into consideration volts, amps, temperature high and low, wiring, insulation, noxious gases, fusing, short circuit and thermal runaway, G load, weight and many other factors At Oshkosh 2006 the Blue Mountains Avionics presentation said for light aircraft the move to 24 volt systems was a no brainer, just so logical. Most instrumentation and radio’s require 10 volts and a 12 volt system decays to 10 volt reasonably fast. Microair’s need probably 10.5 before the transmitter goes garbled, Cambridge falls over at about 8 volts. Mike could perhaps comment on the minimums for Borgelt instruments. PDA’s and XCSoar have a USB 5 volt input so may work longer on a 12 volt system? Some avionics are designed for 35 volt DC maximum input [but XCOM and Microair apparently have 16 ~ 17 volt maximum input specification] But starting with 24 volts gets much more out of the battery before avionics fail. Even moving to say 16 volt to keep within radio specification could lead to increased useful battery life. Cranking amps for starter motors is at the high drain end of the drain spectrum but arguably is early in a batteries discharge cycle in the glider application. So why not have 16 ~ 24 volt systems in gliders? Alan Wilson [ARMIT Comm Eng] Canberra *From:* aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] *On Behalf Of *gstev...@bigpond.com *Sent:* Wednesday, 27 February, 2013 8:58 PM *To:* Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. *Subject:* Re: [Aus-soaring] LiFePo4 Nice one Arie. You do bring a bit of costing perspective into the argument here. The YouTube footage is interesting (horrific?), but I suspect basically irrelevant. I think that any glider pilot who knows anything about the problem, does not want to experience an inflight cockpit fire UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES. I know of one example, where the pilot was VERY happy to have survived the experience - without having to bail out. He reported that fire - as in burning - was NOT the problem. He reported that the amount of fumes and smoke generated in an incredibly short time from the ignition of the plastic wire covering due to shorting of the electrical system was in fact the primary problem. For this unfortunate pilot, there were really two problems: first he had to be able to breathe, and secondly he had to be able to see what you are doing - basically impossible in a cockpit filled with smoke! Re your statement willing to replace a couple of batteries each year Probably a slip of the pen: As Bernard has pointed out a *high*quality SLA gel cell type battery MAY last up to 9 or 10 years, but this is hardly likely to be the norm. Five - seven years seems to be much more realistic estimate. As far as I can tell, the life of the LiFePo4 batteries is not claimed to be any better than this latter figure.
Re: [Aus-soaring] glider register
CASA register search and pick glider option. Lots of oldies I know of though who did not comply with 9/11 fallout panic and have fallen off the register. From: Ron Sanders Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 3:50 PM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: [Aus-soaring] glider register can anyonwe tell me how to find the totl australian glider register? ron On 27 February 2013 20:55, tom claffey to...@yahoo.com wrote: Aircon? - I want one! :) -- From: Mike Borgelt mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com; To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net; Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] LiFePo4 ~ Why not move to 24 volt systems? Sent: Thu, Feb 28, 2013 12:44:04 AM You usually move to higher voltage to transmit greater power at the same or lower current which reduces wiring weight. I suspect in light aircraft the power requirement for the electrics is driven by systems other than the avionics i.e electrically driven hydraulic pumps or simply electrically driven flaps, landing gear retract etc. There is consideration of going to 42 volts for cars for this reason. B50s work down to 10 volts, B300/B500/600/800 a little less. B400 and B700 down to 4 volts.(internal boost regulator cuts in). A 12 v nominal SLA battery is about to die at 11V terminal voltage when discharged at typical glider rates. If you are losing more than 0.2 volts or so between the battery and the instrument you need to fix the wiring, fuses switches etc. There doesn't seem to be any overwhelming reason to go to 24 volts in gliders. I'll bet most 24 or 28 volt avionics has a switch mode regulator to get 14 volts before going to the rest of the gadget or simply to the 5 volts or so required by the logic circuits. If we go to electric flaps and aircon like the Duckhawk this may change. I think it has something like a 54 A-H battery. Mike At 08:13 AM 28/02/2013, you wrote: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary==_NextPart_000_0056_01CE1593.E2557430 Content-Language: en-us My contribution to the battery aspect of this thread is to question why we are so infatuated by 12 volts? [I once wrote Standards, and Standards often impede innovation] I also agree that the electrical systems must be designed and implemented taking into consideration volts, amps, temperature high and low, wiring, insulation, noxious gases, fusing, short circuit and thermal runaway, G load, weight and many other factors At Oshkosh 2006 the Blue Mountains Avionics presentation said for light aircraft the move to 24 volt systems was a no brainer, just so logical. Most instrumentation and radio’s require 10 volts and a 12 volt system decays to 10 volt reasonably fast. Microair’s need probably 10.5 before the transmitter goes garbled, Cambridge falls over at about 8 volts. Mike could perhaps comment on the minimums for Borgelt instruments. PDA’s and XCSoar have a USB 5 volt input so may work longer on a 12 volt system? Some avionics are designed for 35 volt DC maximum input [but XCOM and Microair apparently have 16 ~ 17 volt maximum input specification] But starting with 24 volts gets much more out of the battery before avionics fail. Even moving to say 16 volt to keep within radio specification could lead to increased useful battery life. Cranking amps for starter motors is at the high drain end of the drain spectrum but arguably is early in a batteries discharge cycle in the glider application. So why not have 16 ~ 24 volt systems in gliders? Alan Wilson [ARMIT Comm Eng] Canberra From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [ mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of gstev...@bigpond.com Sent: Wednesday, 27 February, 2013 8:58 PM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] LiFePo4 Nice one Arie. You do bring a bit of costing perspective into the argument here. The YouTube footage is interesting (horrific?), but I suspect basically irrelevant. I think that any glider pilot who knows anything about the problem, does not want to experience an inflight cockpit fire UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES. I know of one example, where the pilot was VERY happy to have survived the experience - without having to bail out. He reported that fire - as in burning - was NOT the problem. He reported that the amount of fumes and smoke generated in an incredibly short time from the ignition of the plastic wire covering due to
Re: [Aus-soaring] glider register
Ron, There is a bit more to it than that! The files also can take some time to load so be patient. Once you have got to the CASA site select search Civil aircraft register scroll down and select Search the Aircraft register. This is under a sub-heading Aircraft register data. Once the Search the Aircraft register opens - see note above - under the sub-heading Extended search go to Aircraft type and click on the arrow in the box. This will open up 5 options, one of which is glider. Select this option, and then click on Search at the bottom of the page. Whilst you are on the Aircraft Register search page also set how many results per page you want - up to 50 is available. You will note that on this page there are many other options given for searching. If you know the glider registration, the easiest thing to do is to enter the last 3 letters in the box under quick search at the top of the page. Good luck, and happy searching. Gary - Original Message - From: Christopher McDonnell To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 4:55 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] glider register CASA register search and pick glider option. Lots of oldies I know of though who did not comply with 9/11 fallout panic and have fallen off the register. From: Ron Sanders Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 3:50 PM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: [Aus-soaring] glider register can anyonwe tell me how to find the totl australian glider register? ron On 27 February 2013 20:55, tom claffey to...@yahoo.com wrote: Aircon? - I want one! :) From: Mike Borgelt mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com; To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net; Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] LiFePo4 ~ Why not move to 24 volt systems? Sent: Thu, Feb 28, 2013 12:44:04 AM You usually move to higher voltage to transmit greater power at the same or lower current which reduces wiring weight. I suspect in light aircraft the power requirement for the electrics is driven by systems other than the avionics i.e electrically driven hydraulic pumps or simply electrically driven flaps, landing gear retract etc. There is consideration of going to 42 volts for cars for this reason. B50s work down to 10 volts, B300/B500/600/800 a little less. B400 and B700 down to 4 volts.(internal boost regulator cuts in). A 12 v nominal SLA battery is about to die at 11V terminal voltage when discharged at typical glider rates. If you are losing more than 0.2 volts or so between the battery and the instrument you need to fix the wiring, fuses switches etc. There doesn't seem to be any overwhelming reason to go to 24 volts in gliders. I'll bet most 24 or 28 volt avionics has a switch mode regulator to get 14 volts before going to the rest of the gadget or simply to the 5 volts or so required by the logic circuits. If we go to electric flaps and aircon like the Duckhawk this may change. I think it has something like a 54 A-H battery. Mike At 08:13 AM 28/02/2013, you wrote: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary==_NextPart_000_0056_01CE1593.E2557430 Content-Language: en-us My contribution to the battery aspect of this thread is to question why we are so infatuated by 12 volts? [I once wrote Standards, and Standards often impede innovation] I also agree that the electrical systems must be designed and implemented taking into consideration volts, amps, temperature high and low, wiring, insulation, noxious gases, fusing, short circuit and thermal runaway, G load, weight and many other factors At Oshkosh 2006 the Blue Mountains Avionics presentation said for light aircraft the move to 24 volt systems was a no brainer, just so logical. Most instrumentation and radio’s require 10 volts and a 12 volt system decays to 10 volt reasonably fast. Microair’s need probably 10.5 before the transmitter goes garbled, Cambridge falls over at about 8 volts. Mike could perhaps comment on the minimums for Borgelt instruments. PDA’s and XCSoar have a USB 5 volt input so may work longer on a 12 volt system? Some avionics are designed for 35 volt DC maximum input [but XCOM and Microair apparently have 16 ~ 17 volt maximum input specification] But starting with 24 volts gets much more out of the battery before avionics fail. Even moving to say 16 volt to keep within radio specification could lead to increased useful battery life. Cranking amps for starter motors is at the high drain end of the drain spectrum but arguably is early in a batteries
