Re: [Aus-soaring] Bad air/Outlandings
Further to my earlier posting, I recall that something similar happened to one of our Ozzie pilots in a pre-worlds in Italy, quite some years ago. I may not have the story exactly right, but as I understand it, the ship he was flying had a tail wheel, and after he had done his ground run up the slope, the ship just rolled backwards until he stopped in a creek - sorry, stream. Unfortunately this resulted in - relatively minor?? - damage to the aircraft, which however precluded any further flying in the contest. Simon, Have I got the story right, and if so, is there any comment that you can add with 20/20 hindsight? Of course, for relative newcomers to the sport, what Byars Holbrook, were really warning about, was avoiding running into unexpected obstacles, on the ground run. The possibilities are almost endless! You must understand that outlanding paddocks can vary from something better than the home airfield, to rock-filled pocket handkerchiefs, inevitably filled with potentially dangerous ground features masked by high grass! Here are some possibilities that I have heard about, that might spoil your day. No doubt the forum members can add to this list. a.. Running into a hidden tree stump b.. Running into rocks. Depending on the size of the rocks, this can result in damage to the fuselage, damage to the wings, or maybe a total write off of the glider. I recall a story where a pilot reported that he had run into a rock. An eye-witness to the event - from above, in another glider - verified the story: Yep, he ran into a rock - it is called the Earth! c.. Running into (relatively), shallow drains, that will nevertheless, rip your undercarriage out. d.. Running into electric fences. e.. Running into a patch of thistles. f.. Running into a star picket, that the farmer has placed in his paddock to mark an area for future weed eradication. g.. Running into a (somewhat pockmarked), rabbit warren: In Nth America - a Badger hole. Gary - Original Message - From: gstev...@bigpond.com To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2013 2:42 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Bad air/Outlandings As I remember, it went more like this ...NEVER FLY THROUGH THE SAME BAD AIR TWICE! which gives the advice a whole new depth of meaning, seeing that this was one of the few pieces of information in the book - and the book is full of useful information - to be so notated, and is the ONLY axiom to appear TWICE! Here are two more from the same book: SPEED UP IN SINK - SLOW DOWN IN LIFT! ;and (in an outlanding) STOP AS SOON AS POSSIBLE AFTER LANDING! Members of this forum can no doubt tell many a story re the last axiom. Here is one that partly fits - but with a twist! Flight No 224, in my log-book, 01/03/1978, ES 60b GTJ. X/C training was being conducted on the day in the GCV's two-seater aircraft fleet. I decided to tag along in the Super Arrow. A task was set into the hills to the SW of Benalla, but unbeknown to me the task for the two-seaters was changed, as the weather was not as predicted. So off I set.The first leg was to Strathbogie, and then on to Euroa. As can be imagined, the first leg did not go well for me, and it was soon necessary to pick a paddock around Boho South. The options were a bit limited, as the countryside was fairly steep. Therefore in accordance with best practice, I choose to land uphill into my selected paddock. The landing went quite well, up to and including touchdown, and I can say with certainty that I did stop quickly - possible no more than 10 or 20 m - which fitted the 3rd maxim above, quite well. However I was totally unprepared for what happened next. No sooner had the glider stopped, than it began to accelerate - backwards down the slope! For pilots who may be unfamiliar with the type, let me say that these aircraft are fitted with a spring steel tailskid rather than a wheel. This was the thing that saved me, as the tailskid dug in, and I then quickly came to a stop, with no damage done. One further thing. Ed McKeough flew out to check the situation. How was it possible for him to land a Pawnee, if the paddock was so steep? Well the truth of the matter was that he landed on the airstrip - which I had totally missed seeing -in an adjacent paddock! I could have got an easy aerotow out of there, but instead had to cope with a bunch of noisy fellow glider pilots, and provide the mandatory slab of retrieve beer! Cheers, Gary - Original Message - From: Mike Borgelt To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2013 11:38 AM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Intermediate/short term goals At 06:57 PM 16/03/2013, you wrote: On 15/03/2013, at 5:12 PM, Adam Woolley wrote: Have you got any rough 'rules of thumb' that you use in order to decide if the short term deviation is
Re: [Aus-soaring] Intermediate/short term goals
John H Cochrane has some very good articles on the web he has done some analysis on deviations which can be found at http://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/john.cochrane/soaring/docs/deviations_I.pdf Othe good artciles can also be found on this page http://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/john.cochrane/soaring/index.htm Regards, John Orton On 17 March 2013 11:57, Bruce discusdri...@gmail.com wrote: Adam, Is the wisp stable, building or decaying? No-one has identified that so far. Building, go. Decaying, pass it by. You should know unless you have been at cloud base - watch the sky ahead, not just cloud by cloud. I broadly agree with some previous comments, but also no-one has mentioned whether it is upwind or downwind (assuming that the direct track has a crosswind component). A mistake (no better air) made after diverting downwind is a bigger mistake. Also no-one has mentioned whether there are other gliders already at the wisp or headed that way - if there are, and they are clearly climbing, then go for it. On some days the cycle may be short, so wisps are used often. Then again, you can be surprised and use a wisp on a bigger day. You have asked a closed question (assuming that if it is more than 30degrees it isn't worth diverting). Some of the previous points may justify greater diversions if very short distances are involved, if upwind/other gliders climbing strongly etc. There is no one simple rule of thumb - there are quite a few, and they have greater or lesser importance on different days. That's why those who fly more generally succeed! (So long as they aren't just repeating themselves). Cheers Bruce Sent from my iPad On 15/03/2013, at 5:42 PM, Adam Woolley go_soar...@hotmail.com wrote: Everyone knows something that another doesn't know in soaring. Trying to figure out the below, any thoughts from the floor? The scenario: You've just left a CU, with the cloud direct on track being your target cloud between 3-5km away with an average climb expected, direct is blue and normal sink. 30* to your left/right is a whisp, not one that you'd use to climb in - but one that you could deviate too in order to get reduced sink or a hundred feet of altitude. Do you, go direct through the sinking air, or cover extra track miles to the whisp that you know you're not going to climb in, but get remarkably reduced sink (or even a small gain in height)? For me, I either always just lose out (more often than not) when getting to the next CU, or gain a massive advantage with a 1000' height gain on a competitor in that short cruise. Have you got any rough 'rules of thumb' that you use in order to decide if the short term deviation is worth it or not? ie, how can I get to the next CU by beating the other competitors by second a mile (as G.Moffat would say) if it's possible overall. Cheers, Woolley ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Bad air/Outlandings
Hi Gary, I was the retrieve crew. The incident occurred at the pre-worlds in Rieti Italy in 2007. The glider was a DG300 owned by the gliding club there. I will not identify the pilot, it is his business if he wishes to make himself known. The glider landed safely on a 40-45 degree upward slope it was the only landable place in the valley, so that was a pretty good paddock selection. However the wheel brake would not hold the glider at that angle, and it rolled back down the slope and ended in some trees with the pilot still aboard. The fuselage passed between two trees and the trailing edges of the wings struck the trees travelling at least 30kph backwards, doing quite significant damage to the wings themselves and the wing roots and fuselage junction. The pilot was uninjured. One lesson from this incident is that the wheel brakes on gliders are designed to stop them in a forward direction, and may not be as effective in reverse. The farmer was at least 70 years of age, and spoke no English. I speak some Italian, and so needed to ask the farmer to bring his tractor to the glider, attaching rope and towing it to the top of the slope where there was a small relatively level area where the glider could be derigged. The derig was difficult because of the damage to the wings, but the farmer was a great help, because despite his age and the fact that he had never seen a glider in his life, he was a strong man and very willing to assist. Its not my best outlanding story (my glider being stolen is probably the most memorable) but I think it comes second. Cheers Tim Tra dire e fare cè mezzo il mare From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of gstev...@bigpond.com Sent: Sunday, 17 March 2013 20:25 To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Bad air/Outlandings Further to my earlier posting, I recall that something similar happened to one of our Ozzie pilots in a pre-worlds in Italy, quite some years ago. I may not have the story exactly right, but as I understand it, the ship he was flying had a tail wheel, and after he had done his ground run up the slope, the ship just rolled backwards until he stopped in a creek - sorry, stream. Unfortunately this resulted in - relatively minor?? - damage to the aircraft, which however precluded any further flying in the contest. Simon, Have I got the story right, and if so, is there any comment that you can add with 20/20 hindsight? Of course, for relative newcomers to the sport, what Byars Holbrook, were really warning about, was avoiding running into unexpected obstacles, on the ground run. The possibilities are almost endless! You must understand that outlanding paddocks can vary from something better than the home airfield, to rock-filled pocket handkerchiefs, inevitably filled with potentially dangerous ground features masked by high grass! Here are some possibilities that I have heard about, that might spoil your day. No doubt the forum members can add to this list. * Running into a hidden tree stump * Running into rocks. Depending on the size of the rocks, this can result in damage to the fuselage, damage to the wings, or maybe a total write off of the glider. I recall a story where a pilot reported that he had run into a rock. An eye-witness to the event - from above, in another glider - verified the story: Yep, he ran into a rock - it is called the Earth! * Running into (relatively), shallow drains, that will nevertheless, rip your undercarriage out. * Running into electric fences. * Running into a patch of thistles. * Running into a star picket, that the farmer has placed in his paddock to mark an area for future weed eradication. * Running into a (somewhat pockmarked), rabbit warren: In Nth America - a Badger hole. Gary - Original Message - From: gstev...@bigpond.com To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. mailto:aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2013 2:42 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Bad air/Outlandings As I remember, it went more like this ...NEVER FLY THROUGH THE SAME BAD AIR TWICE! which gives the advice a whole new depth of meaning, seeing that this was one of the few pieces of information in the book - and the book is full of useful information - to be so notated, and is the ONLY axiom to appear TWICE! Here are two more from the same book: SPEED UP IN SINK - SLOW DOWN IN LIFT! ;and (in an outlanding) STOP AS SOON AS POSSIBLE AFTER LANDING! Members of this forum can no doubt tell many a story re the last axiom. Here is one that partly fits - but with a twist! Flight No 224, in my log-book, 01/03/1978, ES 60b GTJ. X/C training was being conducted on the day in the GCV's two-seater aircraft fleet. I decided to tag along in the Super Arrow. A task was set into the
Re: [Aus-soaring] Intermediate/short term goals
On 17/03/2013, at 11:08 AM, Mike Borgelt mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com wrote: Yes, staying out of sink is very important. Most of us do it poorly. It is extremely important when trying to center weak and broken thermals which is why I like a vario with a sink sound as it provides full information on the bad air as well as the good air while doing this. And on that note, I'd like to congratulate you for the B50, which, as installed in AUGC's H205 Club Libelle, had the most inspiringly depressing sink sound I've ever had the misfortune to hear. Excellent work, well done :-) - mark ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Intermediate/short term goals
Mark, The idea is to fly in air that's going up. You should not be hearing the sink sound much. If you are it is time to go somewhere else and be in cruise mode while doing this when you won't hear the sink sound. Mike At 12:37 AM 18/03/2013, you wrote: On 17/03/2013, at 11:08 AM, Mike Borgelt mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com wrote: Yes, staying out of sink is very important. Most of us do it poorly. It is extremely important when trying to center weak and broken thermals which is why I like a vario with a sink sound as it provides full information on the bad air as well as the good air while doing this. And on that note, I'd like to congratulate you for the B50, which, as installed in AUGC's H205 Club Libelle, had the most inspiringly depressing sink sound I've ever had the misfortune to hear. Excellent work, well done :-) - mark ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Borgelt Instruments - design manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784: int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Intermediate/short term goals
The idea is to fly in air that's going up. Wow - that's where I've gone wrong for the last 50 years. Thanks Mr. Borgelt for that invaluable piece of advise. rgds Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 08:25:08 +1000 To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net From: mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Intermediate/short term goals Mark, The idea is to fly in air that's going up. You should not be hearing the sink sound much. If you are it is time to go somewhere else and be in cruise mode while doing this when you won't hear the sink sound. Mike At 12:37 AM 18/03/2013, you wrote: On 17/03/2013, at 11:08 AM, Mike Borgelt mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com wrote: Yes, staying out of sink is very important. Most of us do it poorly. It is extremely important when trying to center weak and broken thermals which is why I like a vario with a sink sound as it provides full information on the bad air as well as the good air while doing this. And on that note, I'd like to congratulate you for the B50, which, as installed in AUGC's H205 Club Libelle, had the most inspiringly depressing sink sound I've ever had the misfortune to hear. Excellent work, well done :-) - mark ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Borgelt Instruments - design manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Intermediate/short term goals
I don't know if Rolf's response was intended as sarcasm but 'The idea is to fly in air that's going up' is pretty good advice. If only we ever taught students this simple maxim then everything would be a lot easier i.e.think about where you're pointing the glider rather than meandering around meaninglessly. Dave From: rolf a. buelter rbuel...@hotmail.com To: aus soaring aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Monday, 18 March 2013 8:38 AM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Intermediate/short term goals The idea is to fly in air that's going up. Wow - that's where I've gone wrong for the last 50 years. Thanks Mr. Borgelt for that invaluable piece of advise. rgds Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 08:25:08 +1000 To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net From: mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Intermediate/short term goals Mark, The idea is to fly in air that's going up. You should not be hearing the sink sound much. If you are it is time to go somewhere else and be in cruise mode while doing this when you won't hear the sink sound. Mike At 12:37 AM 18/03/2013, you wrote: On 17/03/2013, at 11:08 AM, Mike Borgelt mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com wrote: Yes, staying out of sink is very important. Most of us do it poorly. It is extremely important when trying to center weak and broken thermals which is why I like a vario with a sink sound as it provides full information on the bad air as well as the good air while doing this. And on that note, I'd like to congratulate you for the B50, which, as installed in AUGC's H205 Club Libelle, had the most inspiringly depressing sink sound I've ever had the misfortune to hear. Excellent work, well done :-) - mark ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Borgelt Instruments- design manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Intermediate/short term goals
The Zander sink tone is far more depressing :) David -Original Message- From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring- boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Mark Newton Sent: 18 March 2013 01:07 To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Intermediate/short term goals On 17/03/2013, at 11:08 AM, Mike Borgelt mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com wrote: Yes, staying out of sink is very important. Most of us do it poorly. It is extremely important when trying to center weak and broken thermals which is why I like a vario with a sink sound as it provides full information on the bad air as well as the good air while doing this. And on that note, I'd like to congratulate you for the B50, which, as installed in AUGC's H205 Club Libelle, had the most inspiringly depressing sink sound I've ever had the misfortune to hear. Excellent work, well done :-) - mark ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Intermediate/short term goals
Comparing some flights from a recent comp, A glider that flew direct saw 4 knot average climbs and averaged 40:1 A glider of the same type deviated a lot, saw 6 knot climbs and achieved 50:1 The glider that deviated could fly an additional 26km and still be ahead. That's a deviation of about 42 degrees ! Alternatively a 30 degree deviation has this glider 6 minutes ahead after 100km ! Matt On 17/03/2013, at 21:52 , John Orton johno...@gmail.com wrote: John H Cochrane has some very good articles on the web he has done some analysis on deviations which can be found at http://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/john.cochrane/soaring/docs/deviations_I.pdf Othe good artciles can also be found on this page http://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/john.cochrane/soaring/index.htm Regards, John Orton On 17 March 2013 11:57, Bruce discusdri...@gmail.com wrote: Adam, Is the wisp stable, building or decaying? No-one has identified that so far. Building, go. Decaying, pass it by. You should know unless you have been at cloud base - watch the sky ahead, not just cloud by cloud. I broadly agree with some previous comments, but also no-one has mentioned whether it is upwind or downwind (assuming that the direct track has a crosswind component). A mistake (no better air) made after diverting downwind is a bigger mistake. Also no-one has mentioned whether there are other gliders already at the wisp or headed that way - if there are, and they are clearly climbing, then go for it. On some days the cycle may be short, so wisps are used often. Then again, you can be surprised and use a wisp on a bigger day. You have asked a closed question (assuming that if it is more than 30degrees it isn't worth diverting). Some of the previous points may justify greater diversions if very short distances are involved, if upwind/other gliders climbing strongly etc. There is no one simple rule of thumb - there are quite a few, and they have greater or lesser importance on different days. That's why those who fly more generally succeed! (So long as they aren't just repeating themselves). Cheers Bruce Sent from my iPad On 15/03/2013, at 5:42 PM, Adam Woolley go_soar...@hotmail.com wrote: Everyone knows something that another doesn't know in soaring. Trying to figure out the below, any thoughts from the floor? The scenario: You've just left a CU, with the cloud direct on track being your target cloud between 3-5km away with an average climb expected, direct is blue and normal sink. 30* to your left/right is a whisp, not one that you'd use to climb in - but one that you could deviate too in order to get reduced sink or a hundred feet of altitude. Do you, go direct through the sinking air, or cover extra track miles to the whisp that you know you're not going to climb in, but get remarkably reduced sink (or even a small gain in height)? For me, I either always just lose out (more often than not) when getting to the next CU, or gain a massive advantage with a 1000' height gain on a competitor in that short cruise. Have you got any rough 'rules of thumb' that you use in order to decide if the short term deviation is worth it or not? ie, how can I get to the next CU by beating the other competitors by second a mile (as G.Moffat would say) if it's possible overall. Cheers, Woolley ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Intermediate/short term goals
Use the force?. ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Intermediate/short term goals
'The idea is to fly in air that's going up' is pretty good advice. I was sitting opposite a world champion from Eastern Europe at dinner when someone asked him What's the secret? His answer was It's not so hard. You climb and you glide… but it's best to do it in that order. It is a technique that works well. ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Bad air/Outlandings
On 17/03/2013, at 7:55 PM, gstev...@bigpond.com wrote: Of course, for relative newcomers to the sport, what Byars Holbrook, were really warning about, was avoiding running into unexpected obstacles, on the ground run. An argument for fully held off minimum energy landings and serviceable wheel brakes: Here are some possibilities that I have heard about, that might spoil your day. ASC had a photo of an Arrow suspended above a drainage ditch by its wingtips. The story I heard (apocryphal, but it sounds good around the bar) was that the pilot lined-up on the ditch thinking it was a vehicle track, and only realized it had depth when it was too late. - mark ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
