Re: [Aus-soaring] The power of the media, was RE: The power of prayer?
As it is OT I've replied to Vaughan privately. As for It's often said that the most dangerous thing about gliding is driving to from the gliding club. How true that was in David's case. I think that has been discussed here lots and Bruno Gantenbrink's article is on the DG website. Mike At 03:12 PM 28/03/2009, you wrote: Dear Mike, everyone As a long-time lurker on this list, I didn't think I'd be motivated to make my first post off-topic. Jesus taught us of the necessity of forgiveness. There have been terrible wrongs in history on all sides. We should forgive and seek forgiveness. Islam is not the enemy. In my experience, Muslims are righteous, peace-loving people. That does not change the fact that the Captain is guilty of gross dereliction of duty in this case, but denigration of his faith doesn't achieve anything good. Cheers - Vaughan P.S. I would also like to celebrate the memory of David Krnak, former member of the Barossa Valley Gliding Club (like me), taken from us this day 17 years ago. It's often said that the most dangerous thing about gliding is driving to from the gliding club. How true that was in David's case. On 28/03/2009, at 6:56 AM, Mike Borgelt wrote: At 04:05 PM 27/03/2009, you wrote: While Robert scuba dives through Cairo, the rest of you who may be interested can search for islamic terror attacks, islam expansion, Battle of Tours, Lepanto(and read the poem) ,battle of Vienna 1683, Barbary coast pirates. I'm sure you will be surprised. By the way Robert, nowhere in my post did I class all people of the Islamic faiths as terrorists. You are obviously reading comprehension challenged. You also left out my reference to ASIC cards. Nice. Care to tell us why we need them? The point I was making was in response to Gavin Wrigley's post, that making judgements after due consideration of the facts is not prejudice. Ever consider how if Islam had won at Tours or Lepanto or Vienna there might well have been no renaissance or Western civilization? Mike Mike Borgelt wrote: I'd be just as pissed off if the Captain started using his rosary beads but judgements based on verifiable facts such as that we in the West are currently under attack by a 1400 year old political movement masquerading as a religion, whose adherents want us dead or converted to their totalitarian cause and are the cause of much strife in the world today as they have been for the last 1400 years are not prejudice. That, I'm afraid, is some of the most bigotted anti-Islamic speech I have come across. In much the same way that the beliefs on the extremist fringes of the Christian religion have only a passing acquaintanceship with the core teachings of Christ, those of the extreme Islamists also bear little resemblance to the core of Islam. Furthermore, when we in the educated west were wallowing in the dark ages, conducting purges against our fellow Christians (take a look at the Abigensian Crusade as an example), burning 'proscribed' books reporting unacceptable truths and also people for investigating the real world around them, the Islamic civilisation was keeping alive the flame of learning and scientific inquiry. Without the preservation and extension of knowledge undertaken by the Islamic civilisations around the mediterranean, our Renaissance would have had a hard time getting started. I do not condone and will not accept the behaviour of the terrorists - but neither will I accept sweeping generalisations that attempt to class all people of the Islamic faiths as terrorists. I hasten to add I am not an adherent of either religion. -- Robert Hart mailto:ha...@interweft.com.aumailto:ha...@interweft.com.aumai lto:ha...@interweft.com.auha...@interweft.com.au +61 (0)438 385 533 http://www.hart.wattle.id.auhttp://www.hart.wattle.id.au ___ Aus-soaring mailing list mailto:Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.netaus-soar...@lists.inter node.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaringhttp:/ /lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Borgelt Instruments - manufacturers of quality soaring instruments phone Int'l + 61 746 355784 fax Int'l + 61 746 358796 cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784 Int'l + 61 429 355784 email: mailto:mborg...@borgeltinstruments.commborg...@borgeltinstruments.com website: http://www.borgeltinstruments.comwww.borgeltinstruments.com ___ Aus-soaring mailing list mailto:Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.netAus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaringhttp://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit:
Re: [Aus-soaring] The power of the media, was RE: The power of prayer?
Hmmm can you be truly righteous and peace loving at the same time? I am not sure that history is replete with abundant examples. Cheers Paul 2009/3/28 Vaughan Clarkson v.clark...@csee.uq.edu.au: Dear Mike, everyone As a long-time lurker on this list, I didn't think I'd be motivated to make my first post off-topic. Jesus taught us of the necessity of forgiveness. There have been terrible wrongs in history on all sides. We should forgive and seek forgiveness. Islam is not the enemy. In my experience, Muslims are righteous, peace-loving people. ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] The power of the media, was RE: The power of prayer?
Mike Borgelt wrote: I'd be just as pissed off if the Captain started using his rosary beads but judgements based on verifiable facts such as that we in the West are currently under attack by a 1400 year old political movement masquerading as a religion, whose adherents want us dead or converted to their totalitarian cause and are the cause of much strife in the world today as they have been for the last 1400 years are not "prejudice". That, I'm afraid, is some of the most bigotted anti-Islamic speech I have come across. In much the same way that the beliefs on the extremist fringes of the Christian religion have only a passing acquaintanceship with the core teachings of Christ, those of the extreme Islamists also bear little resemblance to the core of Islam. Furthermore, when we in the "educated west" were wallowing in the dark ages, conducting purges against our fellow Christians (take a look at the Abigensian "Crusade" as an example), burning 'proscribed' books reporting unacceptable truths and also people for investigating the real world around them, the Islamic civilisation was keeping alive the flame of learning and scientific inquiry. Without the preservation and extension of knowledge undertaken by the Islamic civilisations around the mediterranean, our Renaissance would have had a hard time getting started. I do not condone and will not accept the behaviour of the terrorists - but neither will I accept sweeping generalisations that attempt to class all people of the Islamic faiths as terrorists. I hasten to add I am not an adherent of either religion. -- Robert Hart ha...@interweft.com.au +61 (0)438 385 533 http://www.hart.wattle.id.au ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] The power of the media, was RE: The power of prayer?
At 04:05 PM 27/03/2009, you wrote: While Robert scuba dives through Cairo, the rest of you who may be interested can search for islamic terror attacks, islam expansion, Battle of Tours, Lepanto(and read the poem) ,battle of Vienna 1683, Barbary coast pirates. I'm sure you will be surprised. By the way Robert, nowhere in my post did I class all people of the Islamic faiths as terrorists. You are obviously reading comprehension challenged. You also left out my reference to ASIC cards. Nice. Care to tell us why we need them? The point I was making was in response to Gavin Wrigley's post, that making judgements after due consideration of the facts is not prejudice. Ever consider how if Islam had won at Tours or Lepanto or Vienna there might well have been no renaissance or Western civilization? Mike Mike Borgelt wrote: I'd be just as pissed off if the Captain started using his rosary beads but judgements based on verifiable facts such as that we in the West are currently under attack by a 1400 year old political movement masquerading as a religion, whose adherents want us dead or converted to their totalitarian cause and are the cause of much strife in the world today as they have been for the last 1400 years are not prejudice. That, I'm afraid, is some of the most bigotted anti-Islamic speech I have come across. In much the same way that the beliefs on the extremist fringes of the Christian religion have only a passing acquaintanceship with the core teachings of Christ, those of the extreme Islamists also bear little resemblance to the core of Islam. Furthermore, when we in the educated west were wallowing in the dark ages, conducting purges against our fellow Christians (take a look at the Abigensian Crusade as an example), burning 'proscribed' books reporting unacceptable truths and also people for investigating the real world around them, the Islamic civilisation was keeping alive the flame of learning and scientific inquiry. Without the preservation and extension of knowledge undertaken by the Islamic civilisations around the mediterranean, our Renaissance would have had a hard time getting started. I do not condone and will not accept the behaviour of the terrorists - but neither will I accept sweeping generalisations that attempt to class all people of the Islamic faiths as terrorists. I hasten to add I am not an adherent of either religion. -- Robert Hart mailto:ha...@interweft.com.auha...@interweft.com.au +61 (0)438 385 533 http://www.hart.wattle.id.au ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Borgelt Instruments - manufacturers of quality soaring instruments phone Int'l + 61 746 355784 fax Int'l + 61 746 358796 cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784 Int'l + 61 429 355784 email: mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com website: www.borgeltinstruments.com ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] The power of the media, was RE: The power of prayer?
Dear Mike, everyone As a long-time lurker on this list, I didn't think I'd be motivated to make my first post off-topic. Jesus taught us of the necessity of forgiveness. There have been terrible wrongs in history on all sides. We should forgive and seek forgiveness. Islam is not the enemy. In my experience, Muslims are righteous, peace-loving people. That does not change the fact that the Captain is guilty of gross dereliction of duty in this case, but denigration of his faith doesn't achieve anything good. Cheers - Vaughan P.S. I would also like to celebrate the memory of David Krnak, former member of the Barossa Valley Gliding Club (like me), taken from us this day 17 years ago. It's often said that the most dangerous thing about gliding is driving to from the gliding club. How true that was in David's case. On 28/03/2009, at 6:56 AM, Mike Borgelt wrote: At 04:05 PM 27/03/2009, you wrote: While Robert scuba dives through Cairo, the rest of you who may be interested can search for islamic terror attacks, islam expansion, Battle of Tours, Lepanto(and read the poem) ,battle of Vienna 1683, Barbary coast pirates. I'm sure you will be surprised. By the way Robert, nowhere in my post did I class all people of the Islamic faiths as terrorists. You are obviously reading comprehension challenged. You also left out my reference to ASIC cards. Nice. Care to tell us why we need them? The point I was making was in response to Gavin Wrigley's post, that making judgements after due consideration of the facts is not prejudice. Ever consider how if Islam had won at Tours or Lepanto or Vienna there might well have been no renaissance or Western civilization? Mike Mike Borgelt wrote: I'd be just as pissed off if the Captain started using his rosary beads but judgements based on verifiable facts such as that we in the West are currently under attack by a 1400 year old political movement masquerading as a religion, whose adherents want us dead or converted to their totalitarian cause and are the cause of much strife in the world today as they have been for the last 1400 years are not prejudice. That, I'm afraid, is some of the most bigotted anti-Islamic speech I have come across. In much the same way that the beliefs on the extremist fringes of the Christian religion have only a passing acquaintanceship with the core teachings of Christ, those of the extreme Islamists also bear little resemblance to the core of Islam. Furthermore, when we in the educated west were wallowing in the dark ages, conducting purges against our fellow Christians (take a look at the Abigensian Crusade as an example), burning 'proscribed' books reporting unacceptable truths and also people for investigating the real world around them, the Islamic civilisation was keeping alive the flame of learning and scientific inquiry. Without the preservation and extension of knowledge undertaken by the Islamic civilisations around the mediterranean, our Renaissance would have had a hard time getting started. I do not condone and will not accept the behaviour of the terrorists - but neither will I accept sweeping generalisations that attempt to class all people of the Islamic faiths as terrorists. I hasten to add I am not an adherent of either religion. -- Robert Hart mailto:ha...@interweft.com.auha...@interweft.com.au +61 (0)438 385 533 http://www.hart.wattle.id.au ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Borgelt Instruments - manufacturers of quality soaring instruments phone Int'l + 61 746 355784 fax Int'l + 61 746 358796 cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784 Int'l + 61 429 355784 email: mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com website: www.borgeltinstruments.com ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] The power of the media, was RE: The power of prayer?
Interesting subject, very topical for all of us nowadays, and a good thing for Michael to have brought up. I read the report conclusions, very technical/factual and not a glowing endorsement for any of the 'professionals' involved. I had seen the trial verdict reported in both the Times and the Guardian in the last few days, and both reports placed an inordinate emphasis on the fact that the captain (heard on the CVR) prayed, after apparently handing over to his co-pilot. There were undoubtedly better things to do at the time, but this was far from the only or worst mistake that the crew/airline/authority had all combined to effect. I did a media search to see how it was reported in other press. Only a few mentioned the praying..most others stated other facts and aspects of the case. It is clear that some western media see value in appealing to the anti-islamic prejudices of so many of us. Very few people will go behind the headline/newsbyte. I agree with Richard Dawkins by the way. And if that pilot relly insisted on invoking a God he should , like so many of us, have chosen Derek Piggott. Then he might have got back. Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 10:21:55 +0900 From: michael.tex...@health.wa.gov.au To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] The power of the media, was RE: The power of prayer? All 366 pages? Yup! ;-) Why let the facts get in the way of a good story? Much of the report comprises appendices (these in themselves are interesting). The conclusion starts at page 193 and goes for about 10 or so pages. ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring _ Looking for a place to manage all your online stuff? Explore the new Windows Live . http://www.microsoft.com/australia/windows/windowslive/___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] The power of the media, was RE: The power of prayer?
Think it is the Jesuits who advise to sailors in a storm that they should pray to God, but carry on rowing. Would seem to apply here. - Original Message - From: gavin wrigley To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 8:10 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] The power of the media, was RE: The power of prayer? Interesting subject, very topical for all of us nowadays, and a good thing for Michael to have brought up. I read the report conclusions, very technical/factual and not a glowing endorsement for any of the 'professionals' involved. I had seen the trial verdict reported in both the Times and the Guardian in the last few days, and both reports placed an inordinate emphasis on the fact that the captain (heard on the CVR) prayed, after apparently handing over to his co-pilot. There were undoubtedly better things to do at the time, but this was far from the only or worst mistake that the crew/airline/authority had all combined to effect. I did a media search to see how it was reported in other press. Only a few mentioned the praying..most others stated other facts and aspects of the case. It is clear that some western media see value in appealing to the anti-islamic prejudices of so many of us. Very few people will go behind the headline/newsbyte. I agree with Richard Dawkins by the way. And if that pilot relly insisted on invoking a God he should , like so many of us, have chosen Derek Piggott. Then he might have got back. Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 10:21:55 +0900 From: michael.tex...@health.wa.gov.au To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] The power of the media, was RE: The power of prayer? All 366 pages? Yup! ;-) Why let the facts get in the way of a good story? Much of the report comprises appendices (these in themselves are interesting). The conclusion starts at page 193 and goes for about 10 or so pages. ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring -- Explore the new Windows Live. Looking for a place to manage all your online stuff? -- ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] The power of the media, was RE: The power of prayer?
At 07:10 PM 26/03/2009, you wrote: Interesting subject, very topical for all of us nowadays, and a good thing for Michael to have brought up. I read the report conclusions, very technical/factual and not a glowing endorsement for any of the 'professionals' involved. I had seen the trial verdict reported in both the Times and the Guardian in the last few days, and both reports placed an inordinate emphasis on the fact that the captain (heard on the CVR) prayed, after apparently handing over to his co-pilot. There were undoubtedly better things to do at the time, but this was far from the only or worst mistake that the crew/airline/authority had all combined to effect. Yes there were many causes for the two engine stoppage. Designing a part which fits the wrong aircraft and has different outputs is one. Not having a second method of ascertaining fuel load is another and yet another is designing a twin engined airliner where information to the crew degrades so severely when both engines stop (I've got better backups in my BD4) but all are irrelevant once the 2 engines have quit. Then the crew MUST do their duty, run the checks and do everything possible within their power to ensure the safety of their passengers. This apparently didn't happen which is why they are in jail for manslaughter. I did a media search to see how it was reported in other press. Only a few mentioned the praying..most others stated other facts and aspects of the case. It is clear that some western media see value in appealing to the anti-islamic prejudices of so many of us. Very few people will go behind the headline/newsbyte. I'd be just as pissed off if the Captain started using his rosary beads but judgements based on verifiable facts such as that we in the West are currently under attack by a 1400 year old political movement masquerading as a religion, whose adherents want us dead or converted to their totalitarian cause and are the cause of much strife in the world today as they have been for the last 1400 years are not prejudice. I'm reminded of this every time I pay the $200 for renewal of my ASIC card, a direct result of the actions of these people. Mike Borgelt Instruments - manufacturers of quality soaring instruments phone Int'l + 61 746 355784 fax Int'l + 61 746 358796 cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784 Int'l + 61 429 355784 email: mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com website: www.borgeltinstruments.com ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
[Aus-soaring] The power of the media, was RE: The power of prayer?
I would take any report from the media with a grain of salt. Sounds like a bit of a racist beat up. How many of you would mutter some oath when things are going wrong? Has anyone actually heard the cockpit voice recordings? Not until you have done this can you pass comment. Please see for the English version of the investigation report, it makes for an interesting read: http://www.ansv.it/cgi-bin/eng/FINAL%20REPORT%20ATR%2072.pdf ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] The power of the media, was RE: The power of prayer?
All 366 pages? Rolf Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 09:40:13 +0900 From: michael.tex...@health.wa.gov.au To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Subject: [Aus-soaring] The power of the media, was RE: The power of prayer? I would take any report from the media with a grain of salt. Sounds like a bit of a racist beat up. How many of you would mutter some oath when things are going wrong? Has anyone actually heard the cockpit voice recordings? Not until you have done this can you pass comment. Please see for the English version of the investigation report, it makes for an interesting read: http://www.ansv.it/cgi-bin/eng/FINAL%20REPORT%20ATR%2072.pdf ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring _ Need a new place to rent, share or buy? Let ninemsn property help. http://a.ninemsn.com.au/b.aspx?URL=http%3A%2F%2Fninemsn%2Edomain%2Ecom%2Eau%2F%3Fs%5Fcid%3DFDMedia%3ANineMSN%5FHotmail%5FTagline_t=774152450_r=Domain_tagline_m=EXT___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] The power of the media, was RE: The power of prayer?
All 366 pages? Yup! ;-) Why let the facts get in the way of a good story? Much of the report comprises appendices (these in themselves are interesting). The conclusion starts at page 193 and goes for about 10 or so pages. ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] The power of the media, was RE: The power of prayer?
Well said! I detest the way in which the media presents lies as fact - they have no intention of telling the truth, only entertainment for those who enjoy that sort of thing. Did anyone else notice the news report last year, where the newsreader said it was a "glider crash", and the picture behind him showed the burned wreckage of a twin... Then when they cut to the newsreel, the reporter said it was an "ultralight" crash! IF they used a photo of the actual accident which they claimed to be reporting, then it was clearly a GA twin and could not have been a glider or ultralight! Where is the accountability? Kym. Texler, Michael wrote: I would take any report from the media with a grain of salt. Sounds like a bit of a racist beat up. How many of you would mutter some oath when things are going wrong? Has anyone actually heard the cockpit voice recordings? Not until you have done this can you pass comment. Please see for the English version of the investigation report, it makes for an interesting read: http://www.ansv.it/cgi-bin/eng/FINAL%20REPORT%20ATR%2072.pdf ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.283 / Virus Database: 270.11.29/2023 - Release Date: 03/25/09 18:54:00 -- - www.riverland.net.au/~kym - ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
