Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Question on unknown father'
Greetings from Portugal where I have been for almost 13 weeks but will soon return home. You have no idea how many times the padrinhos have been the key to the rest of the story for me. In one case, a child born to a single mother with father unknown had as his godmother, his father´s sister. Either the priest slipped and provided information learned in the confessional, maybe had too much to drink when he entered the record, or this was the most open of all open secrets! Merry Christmas! John From: p...@dholmes.com p...@dholmes.com To: azores@googlegroups.com Sent: Saturday, December 8, 2012 6:09 PM Subject: RE: [AZORES-Genealogy] Question on unknown father' Hi John, I didn't know about the stipend given to unwed mothers to keep the baby. That was surely a very effective way to prevent many babies from abandonment. I always look carefully at the godparents. Ever since I found a cousin living in Piedade, Pico from my Leal da Rosa side, way back in 1992 or so on my first visit there, I really paid attention, because this person's ancestor was born before the parents married. There was no hint in the marriage record that he was born illegitimate. But I couldn't locate his baptism until I found the mother about a year before she married. This was about 1840, to give you a time frame. The father was listed as unknown, BUT the father was the godfather in this instance. I don't remember for certain whether I have ever seen that again, but just in case, I like to identify the families of the godparents, because more often than not they are uncles and aunts, as you well know. Obrigado, Doug da Rocha Holmes Sacramento, California Pico Genealogist 916-550-1618 Original Message Subject: Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Question on unknown father' From: John Raposo marra...@yahoo.com Date: Sat, December 08, 2012 9:56 am To: azores@googlegroups.com azores@googlegroups.com Doug is correct in his explanation and observations. I would add that big places like Ponta Delgada and Vila Franca, etc, often had convents, with their lazy Susan wheels. This meant that instead of just abandonning a child in a tiny rural village where he might not be found right away, the child was immediately (unanymously and with the mother unseen by the institution) taken in by the foundling home/convent instead of being left exposed exposto to the elements and the mercy of a chance discovery. The problem is that these convents often did not have enough wet nurses available to take in all of the babies taken in and the death rate was even higher for those children than for the ones who were placed, although the death rate for them was also higher than average. Although the rate of abandonned children was high in the towns and cities, it was also alarmingly high in the villages in the 18th to mid 19th centuries. There are probably two reasons for this: 1- Poverty/too many mouths to feed and not enough land to produce as much food as needed (When the government started paying a stipend to the unwed mother for the care and maintainance of the child, the rate of abandonment dropped dramatically around 1850); 2- the stigma of giving birth to a child outside of marriage. In the villages, the identity of the parents of many of these children of unknown parentage was an open secret. From: p...@dholmes.com p...@dholmes.com To: azores@googlegroups.com Sent: Saturday, December 8, 2012 7:56 AM Subject: RE: [AZORES-Genealogy] Question on unknown father' Hi Eileen, You are not reading the records correctly. Pai = father Pais = parents (also means country, but not in this case). So what you are talking about are children abandoned and the women married to men are known as the ama or wet nurses given the charge of caring for them. These children are called expostos or foundlings and if they should live to adulthood might choose the surname of these foster parents, but not always, by any means. Expostos tend to be greater in larger locations. Check out the volume of them in a city like Angra where they had separate books for some time periods. Same for Ponta Delgada's parishes. The reason for this might be, or probably is that they were brought from outside villages to the main villages or city. If the woman was single and kept the child, the record usually reads filho/a natural de ... and then the name of the mother. Often, but not always the father will be listed as pai incognito, or simply not mentioned. Good luck, Doug da Rocha Holmes Sacramento, California Pico Genealogist 916-550-1618 Original Message Subject: [AZORES-Genealogy] Question on unknown father' From: Eileen Leite eileenle...@seleite.com Date: Sat, December 08, 2012 12:03 am To: azores@googlegroups.com I have been reading baptismal records from Matriz Mae de Deus, Povoacao, Sao Miguel, in 1811-1818. I
Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Question on unknown father'
Hi Doug, didn't know you over there visiting the islands, have you learned anything new about the family where your father and I connect. I would love someday to visit the lands of my ancestors. I think that it would be very exciting and educational... Mike On Saturday, December 8, 2012 1:09:59 PM UTC-5, Doug Holmes wrote: Hi John, I didn't know about the stipend given to unwed mothers to keep the baby. That was surely a very effective way to prevent many babies from abandonment. I always look carefully at the godparents. Ever since I found a cousin living in Piedade, Pico from my Leal da Rosa side, way back in 1992 or so on my first visit there, I really paid attention, because this person's ancestor was born before the parents married. There was no hint in the marriage record that he was born illegitimate. But I couldn't locate his baptism until I found the mother about a year before she married. This was about 1840, to give you a time frame. The father was listed as unknown, BUT the father was the godfather in this instance. I don't remember for certain whether I have ever seen that again, but just in case, I like to identify the families of the godparents, because more often than not they are uncles and aunts, as you well know. Obrigado, Doug da Rocha Holmes Sacramento, California Pico Genealogist 916-550-1618 Original Message Subject: Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Question on unknown father' From: John Raposo marr...@yahoo.com javascript: Date: Sat, December 08, 2012 9:56 am To: azo...@googlegroups.com javascript: azo...@googlegroups.comjavascript: Doug is correct in his explanation and observations. I would add that big places like Ponta Delgada and Vila Franca, etc, often had convents, with their lazy Susan wheels. This meant that instead of just abandonning a child in a tiny rural village where he might not be found right away, the child was immediately (unanymously and with the mother unseen by the institution) taken in by the foundling home/convent instead of being left exposed exposto to the elements and the mercy of a chance discovery. The problem is that these convents often did not have enough wet nurses available to take in all of the babies taken in and the death rate was even higher for those children than for the ones who were placed, although the death rate for them was also higher than average. Although the rate of abandonned children was high in the towns and cities, it was also alarmingly high in the villages in the 18th to mid 19th centuries. There are probably two reasons for this: 1- Poverty/too many mouths to feed and not enough land to produce as much food as needed (When the government started paying a stipend to the unwed mother for the care and maintainance of the child, the rate of abandonment dropped dramatically around 1850); 2- the stigma of giving birth to a child outside of marriage. In the villages, the identity of the parents of many of these children of unknown parentage was an open secret. *From:* pi...@dholmes.com javascript: pi...@dholmes.comjavascript: *To:* azo...@googlegroups.com javascript: *Sent:* Saturday, December 8, 2012 7:56 AM *Subject:* RE: [AZORES-Genealogy] Question on unknown father' Hi Eileen, You are not reading the records correctly. Pai = father Pais = parents (also means country, but not in this case). So what you are talking about are children abandoned and the women married to men are known as the ama or wet nurses given the charge of caring for them. These children are called expostos or foundlings and if they should live to adulthood might choose the surname of these foster parents, but not always, by any means. Expostos tend to be greater in larger locations. Check out the volume of them in a city like Angra where they had separate books for some time periods. Same for Ponta Delgada's parishes. The reason for this might be, or probably is that they were brought from outside villages to the main villages or city. If the woman was single and kept the child, the record usually reads filho/a natural de ... and then the name of the mother. Often, but not always the father will be listed as pai incognito, or simply not mentioned. Good luck, Doug da Rocha Holmes Sacramento, California Pico Genealogist 916-550-1618 Original Message Subject: [AZORES-Genealogy] Question on unknown father' From: Eileen Leite eilee...@seleite.com javascript: Date: Sat, December 08, 2012 12:03 am To: azo...@googlegroups.com javascript: I have been reading baptismal records from Matriz Mae de Deus, Povoacao, Sao Miguel, in 1811-1818. I see what I think is a high number of illegitimate births, “Pais incognito” and “(child) natural”, and have some questions. 1. It seems that almost every time there is a Pais incognito (father unknown), the record notes that the mother is
RE: [AZORES-Genealogy] Question on unknown father'
Hi Mike, my newest found cousin with Piedade roots... :-)I believe it was in 1992 and 1994 that I had the opportunity to visit the Azores. Unfortunately, I have not had the chance since then.In 1996 I went to Slovakia and got married. After that, I returned I think it was twice more, but only to Slovakia. Family and finances since then have not permitted a much longed for return to Pico and Terceira, where the bulk of my ancestry on my father's side came from.But in regards this cousin I found living in the exact same area as we have our Leal da Rosa roots (lugar of Fetais), I believe I determined he is my 5th cousin, but maybe he is a 4th.And as for our own link, I don't think there is any big missing piece of information I haven't already found. Are you having trouble with that?I do know that the Minho website (NEPS) makes a monumental error on our Leal da Rosa ancestry. It has generations mixed up and it completely laughable. So if you are following that blindly, as I'm sure a great number of people do, it's a major mistake. Just follow what the documents say and you'll be fine.I can tell you it was very thrilling to visit Piedade, the land of my ancestors. So do plan on a visit there someday, somehow. You'll be thankful you did so.Doug da Rocha HolmesSacramento, CaliforniaPico Genealogist916-550-1618 Original Message Subject: Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Question on "unknown father' From: Mike mgilfilia...@gmail.com Date: Sun, December 09, 2012 9:54 am To: azores@googlegroups.com Hi Doug, didn't know you over there visiting the islands, have you learned anything new about the family where your father and I connect. I would love someday to visit the lands of my ancestors. I think that it would be very exciting and educational...MikeOn Saturday, December 8, 2012 1:09:59 PM UTC-5, Doug Holmes wrote:Hi John,I didn't know about the stipend given to unwed mothers to keep the baby. That was surely a very effective way to prevent many babies from abandonment.I always look carefully at the godparents. Ever since I found a cousin living in Piedade, Pico from my Leal da Rosa side, way back in 1992 or so on my first visit there, I really paid attention, because this person's ancestor was born before the parents married. There was no hint in the marriage record that he was born illegitimate. But I couldn't locate his baptism until I found the mother about a year before she married. This was about 1840, to give you a time frame. The father was listed as unknown, BUT the father was the godfather in this instance. I don't remember for certain whether I have ever seen that again, but just in case, I like to identify the families of the godparents, because more often than not they are uncles and aunts, as you well know.Obrigado,Doug da Rocha HolmesSacramento, CaliforniaPico Genealogist916-550-1618 Original Message Subject: Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Question on "unknown father' From: John Raposo marr...@yahoo.com Date: Sat, December 08, 2012 9:56 am To: "azo...@googlegroups.com" azo...@googlegroups.com Doug is correct in his explanation and observations. I would add that big places like Ponta Delgada and Vila Franca, etc, often had convents, with their lazy Susan wheels. This meant that instead of just abandonning a child in a tiny rural village where he might not be "found" right away, the child was immediately (unanymously and with the mother unseen by the institution) taken in by the foundling home/convent instead of being left exposed "exposto" to the elements and the mercy of a chance discovery. The problem is that these convents often did not have enough wet nursesavailable to take inall ofthe babies taken in and the death rate was even higher for those children than for the ones who were placed, although the death rate for them was also higher than average.Although the rate of abandonned children was high in the towns and cities, it was also alarmingly high in the villages in the 18th to mid 19th centuries. There are probably two reasons for this: 1- Poverty/too many mouths to feed and not enough land to produce as much food as needed (When the government started paying a stipend to the unwed mother for the care and maintainance of the child, the rate of abandonment dropped dramatically around 1850); 2- the stigma of giving birth to a child outside of marriage. In the villages, the identity of the parents of many of these children of unknown parentage was an open secret. From: "pi...@dholmes.com" pi...@dholmes.com To: azo...@googlegroups.com Sent: Saturday, December 8, 2012 7:56 AM Subject: RE: [AZORES-Genealogy] Question on "unknown father'Hi Eileen,You are not reading the records correctly.Pai = fatherPais = parents (also means country, but not in this case).So what you are talking about are children abandoned and the women married to men are known as the "ama" or wet nurses given the charge of caring for them.These children are called "expostos" or foundlings and if
RE: [AZORES-Genealogy] Question on unknown father'
Are the records of foundlings or illegitimate children available online or on microfilm? I have a great-grandfather, Joao Inacio da Silva from Faial, for whom I cannot find any records beyond the baptism certificate of his child, Jose. In the baptism certificate, Joao, the father, is shown as natural de freguesia Horta and it goes on to say paterno de avos incognitos. I hope I am correct about my translation that this means that the child's grandparents (parents of Joao) are unknown. Jose was born in Horta (Conceicao), Faial. Family lore says that he was the child of the local priest and a village girl, but we have no idea which village or church. The story goes further to state that the priest returned and married the girl, but again, there is no evidence to support the story. Diane George From: azores@googlegroups.com [mailto:azores@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of John Raposo Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 8:56 AM To: azores@googlegroups.com; azores@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Question on unknown father' Doug is correct in his explanation and observations. I would add that big places like Ponta Delgada and Vila Franca, etc, often had convents, with their lazy Susan wheels. This meant that instead of just abandonning a child in a tiny rural village where he might not be found right away, the child was immediately (unanymously and with the mother unseen by the institution) taken in by the foundling home/convent instead of being left exposed exposto to the elements and the mercy of a chance discovery. The problem is that these convents often did not have enough wet nurses available to take in all of the babies taken in and the death rate was even higher for those children than for the ones who were placed, although the death rate for them was also higher than average. Although the rate of abandonned children was high in the towns and cities, it was also alarmingly high in the villages in the 18th to mid 19th centuries. There are probably two reasons for this: 1- Poverty/too many mouths to feed and not enough land to produce as much food as needed (When the government started paying a stipend to the unwed mother for the care and maintainance of the child, the rate of abandonment dropped dramatically around 1850); 2- the stigma of giving birth to a child outside of marriage. In the villages, the identity of the parents of many of these children of unknown parentage was an open secret. From: p...@dholmes.com mailto:p...@dholmes.com p...@dholmes.com mailto:p...@dholmes.com To: azores@googlegroups.com mailto:azores@googlegroups.com Sent: Saturday, December 8, 2012 7:56 AM Subject: RE: [AZORES-Genealogy] Question on unknown father' Hi Eileen, You are not reading the records correctly. Pai = father Pais = parents (also means country, but not in this case). So what you are talking about are children abandoned and the women married to men are known as the ama or wet nurses given the charge of caring for them. These children are called expostos or foundlings and if they should live to adulthood might choose the surname of these foster parents, but not always, by any means. Expostos tend to be greater in larger locations. Check out the volume of them in a city like Angra where they had separate books for some time periods. Same for Ponta Delgada's parishes. The reason for this might be, or probably is that they were brought from outside villages to the main villages or city. If the woman was single and kept the child, the record usually reads filho/a natural de ... and then the name of the mother. Often, but not always the father will be listed as pai incognito, or simply not mentioned. Good luck, Doug da Rocha Holmes Sacramento, California Pico Genealogist 916-550-1618 Original Message Subject: [AZORES-Genealogy] Question on unknown father' From: Eileen Leite eileenle...@seleite.com mailto:eileenle...@seleite.com Date: Sat, December 08, 2012 12:03 am To: azores@googlegroups.com mailto:azores@googlegroups.com I have been reading baptismal records from Matriz Mae de Deus, Povoacao, Sao Miguel, in 1811-1818. I see what I think is a high number of illegitimate births, Pais incognito and (child) natural, and have some questions. 1. It seems that almost every time there is a Pais incognito (father unknown), the record notes that the mother is married to a named someone who is NOT the father of the child. (Casada com or mulher de) Rarely it will say pais incognito and (Mother) solteira. If the mother is single, the format is usually different, and says merely (Child) of (Mother), Single or (Child) natural of (Mother) . Does the priest have a choice in what he writes, or is there a different implication in the format chosen for the record? 2. I counted 13 illegitimate children in a mere 36 pages, or 72 records. That is 18%. Of these, 9 were born to mothers married to men other
[AZORES-Genealogy] Translation Please - Notation by priest
Hi Everyone, Can someone please help with this notation? It was in the margin of Felica Rosa's marriage record from 2 Jul 1802. Is this maybe a notation that she died in February 1841? I would appreciate any insight that someone can give. Obrigado, Jacki -- To unsubscribe from this group, send email to azores+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. Follow the confirmation directions when they arrive. For more options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Azores. Click in the blue area on the right that says Join this group and it will take you to Edit my membership.image001.png
RE: [AZORES-Genealogy] CCA site
Hi Pam, I can't get to it either right now. Jacki From: azores@googlegroups.com [mailto:azores@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Pam Santos Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 5:17 PM To: azores@googlegroups.com Subject: [AZORES-Genealogy] CCA site Is anyone else having problems access it? If so they must be adding records. Pam -- To unsubscribe from this group, send email to azores+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. Follow the confirmation directions when they arrive. For more options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Azores. Click in the blue area on the right that says Join this group and it will take you to Edit my membership. -- To unsubscribe from this group, send email to azores+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. Follow the confirmation directions when they arrive. For more options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Azores. Click in the blue area on the right that says Join this group and it will take you to Edit my membership.
[AZORES-Genealogy] Antonio de Almeida Meireles
Hi, I've just reached the end of my Vicente line. Antonio de Almeida Meireles is my 10th gf he married Maria de Araujo de Benevides 26-Oct-1671 in Capelas. Record SMG-PD-CAPELAS-C-1662-1703_0013 Antonio's parents: Domingos Fernandes Fragoso and Maria Curvella Maria's parents: Manuel Homem da Costa and Margarida de Araujo. Would any one with access to RR books check please and let me know if they find a connection. Gratefully hopeful. -- Margaret M Vicente -- To unsubscribe from this group, send email to azores+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. Follow the confirmation directions when they arrive. For more options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Azores. Click in the blue area on the right that says Join this group and it will take you to Edit my membership.
[AZORES-Genealogy] Evanglina (Evangelina) Moniz Pacheco
Hello, I am looking for some help if possible. I am looking for any information about Evanglina (Evangelina) Moniz Pacheco. She married Joao Borges and had Fernando Moniz Borges in Furnas, Azores in 1930. I cannot seem to find any information on Evanglina or Joao. I am at a complete dead end. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks Krystal -- To unsubscribe from this group, send email to azores+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. Follow the confirmation directions when they arrive. For more options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Azores. Click in the blue area on the right that says Join this group and it will take you to Edit my membership.
[AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Question on unknown father'
I visited the Azores in 2004. At that time I was told that it was necessary for both the Mother Father to appear to register the birth of a child. Since the Father was often off on a fishing boat for months, the father would be listed as unknown. On Friday, December 7, 2012 11:03:09 PM UTC-8, Eileen Leite wrote: I have been reading baptismal records from Matriz Mae de Deus, Povoacao, Sao Miguel, in 1811-1818. I see what I think is a high number of illegitimate births, “Pais incognito” and “(child) natural”, and have some questions. 1. It seems that almost every time there is a Pais incognito (father unknown), the record notes that the mother is married to a named someone who is NOT the father of the child. (Casada com or mulher de) Rarely it will say “pais incognito” and (Mother) solteira. If the mother is single, the format is usually different, and says merely “(Child) of (Mother), Single” or “(Child) natural of (Mother)” . Does the priest have a choice in what he writes, or is there a different implication in the format chosen for the record? 2. I counted 13 illegitimate children in a mere 36 pages, or 72 records. That is 18%. Of these, 9 were born to mothers married to men other than the father. Removing the babies born to single mothers, 2 in 15 babies born to married women were not of her husband. This seems really high to me. Were the husbands away for some reason? Or was there a reason a woman would not claim her own husband to be the father of the child? Just wondering what was going on. Would anyone know why there were so many illegitimate births? Thanks! Eileen Leite Currently seeking Rebellos/Rabellos and de Frias in Povoacao, And Brandao in Nordeste. -- To unsubscribe from this group, send email to azores+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. Follow the confirmation directions when they arrive. For more options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Azores. Click in the blue area on the right that says Join this group and it will take you to Edit my membership.
Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] CCA site
its working now I just tried On Sat, Dec 8, 2012 at 5:29 PM, Jacki G. ja...@cdmmarketing.com wrote: Hi Pam, ** ** I can’t get to it either right now. ** ** Jacki ** ** *From:* azores@googlegroups.com [mailto:azores@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Pam Santos *Sent:* Saturday, December 08, 2012 5:17 PM *To:* azores@googlegroups.com *Subject:* [AZORES-Genealogy] CCA site ** ** Is anyone else having problems access it? If so they must be adding records. ** ** ** ** Pam -- To unsubscribe from this group, send email to azores+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. Follow the confirmation directions when they arrive. For more options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Azores. Click in the blue area on the right that says Join this group and it will take you to Edit my membership. -- To unsubscribe from this group, send email to azores+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. Follow the confirmation directions when they arrive. For more options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Azores. Click in the blue area on the right that says Join this group and it will take you to Edit my membership. -- To unsubscribe from this group, send email to azores+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. Follow the confirmation directions when they arrive. For more options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Azores. Click in the blue area on the right that says Join this group and it will take you to Edit my membership.
[AZORES-Genealogy] Help with a difficult record please
Could someone please help with some of the details on this record. I have been searching and this is one that looks likely (unfortunately). The column notation looks like Manuel Teixeira Simoes and I think it is 1712 but the rest is very faded. If it is correct he should be marrying Maria Silveira and it is the right time. I am looking for the names of the bride and groom and their parents if at all possible. Many thanks if anyone can help. http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SJR-VL-URZELINA-C-1701-1729/SJR-VL-URZELINA-C-1701-1729_item1/P41.html Diane Donnon -- To unsubscribe from this group, send email to azores+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. Follow the confirmation directions when they arrive. For more options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Azores. Click in the blue area on the right that says Join this group and it will take you to Edit my membership.
RE: [AZORES-Genealogy] Translation Please - Notation by priest
It is a common notation, a certificate of the record was provided 16 Feb 1841. The certificate could have been needed for a number of legal reasons. Rick Richard Francis Pimentel Spring, TX Formerly of Epping, New Hampshire Researching, Riberia Grande, Riberinha, Achada Grande, Bretanha, and Ponta Delgada, Sao Miguel, Acores -- To unsubscribe from this group, send email to azores+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. Follow the confirmation directions when they arrive. For more options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Azores. Click in the blue area on the right that says Join this group and it will take you to Edit my membership.
