I'm sure I should have said "pay for an indulgence" or some such thing. I
thought it was pretty well known that these "fees" were common. Close to
twenty years ago I took a few Portuguese genealogy classes and these very
"fees" were discussed along with the amount paid (no dollar amount but
relative amount) according to the closeness of the relationship. I got the
impression at the time that the amount of money not only depended on the
relationship but on the whim of the priest - a few "charged" for 2nd cousin
marriages, others didn't for instance.
David
On Thursday, May 30, 2013 2:46:42 PM UTC-7, Richard Francis Pimentel wrote:
> *I have never heard of paying for a dispensation and do not believe a set
> price was made by Rome. The term indulgence is not the right term. An
> indulgence refers to giving something of value to the church in return for
> forgiveness (a ticket to heaven). These forms of corruption lead to the
> reformation and no longer exist.*
>
> * *
>
> *Perhaps some of our other researchers could chime in on this.*
>
> * *
>
> *Rick*
>
> * *
>
> *Richard Francis Pimentel*
>
> *Spring, TX*
>
> *Formerly of Epping, New Hampshire *
>
> * *
>
> *Researching, Riberia Grande, Riberinha, Achada Grande, Bretanha, and
> Ponta Delgada, Sao Miguel, Acores*
>
> * *
>
> *From:* azo...@googlegroups.com [mailto:
> azo...@googlegroups.com ] *On Behalf Of *David Perry
> *Sent:* Thursday, May 30, 2013 8:42 AM
> *To:* azo...@googlegroups.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] related in the second degree
>
>
>
> I assume these folks had to pay an indulgence (is that the correct word?)
> to the local priest. Does anyone know if the amount paid was more for a
> grandfather/granddaughter marriage than for a 1st cousin/1st cousin
> marriage? Did the amount paid depend on the whim of the local priest or
> were the amounts set by Rome or some higher official? The reason I ask is
> that it seems to be whatever the local priest wants since my great
> grandfather had to pay to marry his first wife's cousin - not his cousin
> mind you but the cousin of his first wife. He fought with the priest for
> weeks about it but finally gave in and paid it. The family joke for all
> these years is that the priest needed a new set of golf clubs. Great
> grandpa never set foot in a church again.
>
> David
>
>
> On Sunday, May 26, 2013 10:36:09 PM UTC-7, Doug Holmes wrote:
>
> I have 35 couples out of about 91,000 total couples in my genealogy
> program who are related in the 1st and 2nd degree of consanguinity (by
> blood) and so the parents for one are the grandparents for the other. Most
> of the time the man is the elder, but a few times the women was the elder
> of the two.
>
>
>
> The majority of the time these couples had children - maybe 90% of the
> time.
>
>
>
> I am certain there are many more than the 35 above couples, but that's
> only what I have transferred from my database to my genealogy program so
> far.
>
>
>
> So this is a small fraction of the couples who married, but still not so
> uncommon. And this doesn't include any 2nd degree cousins, which are far
> more common.
>
>
>
> The most interesting finding to me is that so many of them had kids.
>
> In many cases, their ages were within the normal 2-5 years apart, but some
> were 20 or more years apart.
>
>
>
> As usual, most of them are from Pico and Terceira, since that's where I
> primarily work.
>
>
>
> Doug da Rocha Holmes
> Sacramento, California
> Pico & Terceira Genealogist
> 916-550-1618
>
> www.dholmes.com
>
>
>
> Original Message
> Subject: RE: [AZORES-Genealogy] related in the second degree
> From:
> Date: Fri, May 24, 2013 8:51 am
> To: azo...@googlegroups.com
>
> Yukon,
>
>
>
> I have seen it many, many times to have an uncle/niece marriage.
>
> They call that related in the 1st and 2nd degree of consanguinity.
>
>
>
> However, often it's when they are too old to have children. I'll have to
> check on that.
>
>
>
> I have never seen a grandfather marrying a granddaughter, like Shirl.
>
>
>
> I recently read a book on the history of Ireland, specifically the Dublin
> area, and in about 1200 AD, or so, it was considered a terrible thing to
> have a cousin marrying a cousin, like the Irish were allowing.
>
> This was the opinion of all Christendom outside of Ireland, and was one of
> the reforms imposed by the English king trying to win favor with the Pope
> in Rome. The book, if anyone is interested, "The Princes of Ireland" - a
> great historical fiction.
>
>
>
> Doug da Rocha Holmes
> Sacramento, California
> Pico & Terceira Genealogist
> 916-550-1618
>
> www.dholmes.com
>
>
>
> Original Message
> Subject: Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] related in the second degree
> From: yukon...@aol.com
> Date: Fri, May 24, 2013 6:42 am
> To: azo...@googlegroups.com
>
> I keep reading about cousins marring, but are there any recorded uncle
