I'm sure I should have said "pay for an indulgence" or some such thing. I
thought it was pretty well known that these "fees" were common. Close to
twenty years ago I took a few Portuguese genealogy classes and these very
"fees" were discussed along with the amount paid (no dollar amount but
relative amount) according to the closeness of the relationship. I got the
impression at the time that the amount of money not only depended on the
relationship but on the whim of the priest - a few "charged" for 2nd cousin
marriages, others didn't for instance.
David
On Thursday, May 30, 2013 2:46:42 PM UTC-7, Richard Francis Pimentel wrote:
> *I have never heard of paying for a dispensation and do not believe a set
> price was made by Rome. The term indulgence is not the right term. An
> indulgence refers to giving something of value to the church in return for
> forgiveness (a ticket to heaven). These forms of corruption lead to the
> reformation and no longer exist.*
>
> * *
>
> *Perhaps some of our other researchers could chime in on this.*
>
> * *
>
> *Rick*
>
> * *
>
> *Richard Francis Pimentel*
>
> *Spring, TX*
>
> *Formerly of Epping, New Hampshire *
>
> * *
>
> *Researching, Riberia Grande, Riberinha, Achada Grande, Bretanha, and
> Ponta Delgada, Sao Miguel, Acores*
>
> * *
>
> *From:* [email protected] <javascript:> [mailto:
> [email protected] <javascript:>] *On Behalf Of *David Perry
> *Sent:* Thursday, May 30, 2013 8:42 AM
> *To:* [email protected] <javascript:>
> *Subject:* Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] related in the second degree
>
>
>
> I assume these folks had to pay an indulgence (is that the correct word?)
> to the local priest. Does anyone know if the amount paid was more for a
> grandfather/granddaughter marriage than for a 1st cousin/1st cousin
> marriage? Did the amount paid depend on the whim of the local priest or
> were the amounts set by Rome or some higher official? The reason I ask is
> that it seems to be whatever the local priest wants since my great
> grandfather had to pay to marry his first wife's cousin - not his cousin
> mind you but the cousin of his first wife. He fought with the priest for
> weeks about it but finally gave in and paid it. The family joke for all
> these years is that the priest needed a new set of golf clubs. Great
> grandpa never set foot in a church again.
>
> David
>
>
> On Sunday, May 26, 2013 10:36:09 PM UTC-7, Doug Holmes wrote:
>
> I have 35 couples out of about 91,000 total couples in my genealogy
> program who are related in the 1st and 2nd degree of consanguinity (by
> blood) and so the parents for one are the grandparents for the other. Most
> of the time the man is the elder, but a few times the women was the elder
> of the two.
>
>
>
> The majority of the time these couples had children - maybe 90% of the
> time.
>
>
>
> I am certain there are many more than the 35 above couples, but that's
> only what I have transferred from my database to my genealogy program so
> far.
>
>
>
> So this is a small fraction of the couples who married, but still not so
> uncommon. And this doesn't include any 2nd degree cousins, which are far
> more common.
>
>
>
> The most interesting finding to me is that so many of them had kids.
>
> In many cases, their ages were within the normal 2-5 years apart, but some
> were 20 or more years apart.
>
>
>
> As usual, most of them are from Pico and Terceira, since that's where I
> primarily work.
>
>
>
> Doug da Rocha Holmes
> Sacramento, California
> Pico & Terceira Genealogist
> 916-550-1618
>
> www.dholmes.com
>
>
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: RE: [AZORES-Genealogy] related in the second degree
> From: <[email protected]>
> Date: Fri, May 24, 2013 8:51 am
> To: [email protected]
>
> Yukon,
>
>
>
> I have seen it many, many times to have an uncle/niece marriage.
>
> They call that related in the 1st and 2nd degree of consanguinity.
>
>
>
> However, often it's when they are too old to have children. I'll have to
> check on that.
>
>
>
> I have never seen a grandfather marrying a granddaughter, like Shirl.
>
>
>
> I recently read a book on the history of Ireland, specifically the Dublin
> area, and in about 1200 AD, or so, it was considered a terrible thing to
> have a cousin marrying a cousin, like the Irish were allowing.
>
> This was the opinion of all Christendom outside of Ireland, and was one of
> the reforms imposed by the English king trying to win favor with the Pope
> in Rome. The book, if anyone is interested, "The Princes of Ireland" - a
> great historical fiction.
>
>
>
> Doug da Rocha Holmes
> Sacramento, California
> Pico & Terceira Genealogist
> 916-550-1618
>
> www.dholmes.com
>
>
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] related in the second degree
> From: [email protected]
> Date: Fri, May 24, 2013 6:42 am
> To: [email protected]
>
> I keep reading about cousins marring, but are there any recorded uncle and
> niece marriage. I know this happened, at least in my family. I could not
> believe it when I first found this. My great grandfather, gave his daughter
> to his brother when she was 18. I thought it was odd that her maiden name
> was not on license. While we may not all be super intelligent we got by. As
> far as I know there were no great deformities or retardation from this and
> the line lives into their late 80's to 90's, I am the only one with any
> defect and that is in my heart. So to say I was amazed to learn this news I
> was not totally shocked, just really got me interested in my Azorean roots.
>
>
>
> In a message dated 5/22/2013 3:50:51 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
> [email protected] writes:
>
> First cousins who married is nothing surprising for the Azores. My
> grandmother's parents were first cousins from Sao Roque do Pico.
>
> And like Nancy, I have numerous ancestors who married cousins, both from
> Pico and not so many, but also in Terceira.
>
>
>
> What surprised me was seeing these double first cousins, as Cheri tells us
> they are called. I might have simply forgotten, but I am not sure I ever
> saw it before.
>
>
>
> In fact, I look very carefully at every marriage record and hope they were
> cousins. There are numerous times I have found older ancestors of my own,
> not to mention for others, based on this fact.
>
>
>
> I believe I mentioned this many years ago on the old Azores List on
> Rootsweb, but first cousins having children can have no visible bad results
> in children.
>
> My grandmother, daughter of first cousins, lived to 101. Her brother lived
> into his 90s. Another brother was in his 80s, I believe.
>
>
>
> Doug da Rocha Holmes
> Sacramento, California
> Pico & Terceira Genealogist
> 916-550-1618
>
> www.dholmes.com
>
>
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: RE: [AZORES-Genealogy] related in the second degree
> From: nancy jean baptiste <[email protected]>
> Date: Wed, May 22, 2013 1:55 pm
> To: azores group <[email protected]>
>
> My Furtado Cardoso great grandparents were first cousins on Pico....their
> line is FILLED with cousin marriages....over and over through the
> generations. While there are no obvious problems from this I suspect that
> things like diabetes and heart disease are increased in these close lines.
> their daughter married a man whose parents were from Sao Jorge and Santa
> Maria....their son, my father married my mom whose complete line is from
> Sao Jorge......I've found many surnames between my mom's Sao Jorge line and
> my dad's fathers Sao Jorge line......cousins? Maybe distant ones....I don't
> know.
>
> I read that Flores has the highest incidence of Machado Joseph disease
> found among the Azorean people and it is attributed to the frequency of
> inbreeding. Sometimes things are ok....sometimes not.
>
> Nancy Jean
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 22 May 2013 13:42:28 -0700
> Subject: Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] related in the second degree
> From: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
>
> Doug,
>
> Cousin Marriages are common on Flores because it is such a small Island. I
> have cousin marriages on both sides of my family tree. If the genes are
> good, superior decendants can be produced. I have some first cousins on my
> father's side that married. One of their children married the child of
> another first cousin of mine making them second cousins who married. This
> couple had 4 children all of whom are college graduates. One of these four
> children is now a professor at Boston University.
>
> John Vasconcelos
>
>
>
> On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 10:31 PM, <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> I ran across an old document I had translated about 15 years ago and took
> another look.
>
> My first notation was that this couple was related in the second degree. I
> never noted whether it was by consanguinity or affinity.
>
> But usually if I didn't note it, it was by consanguinity.
>
>
>
> Well, my second look proved important because I had missed an important
> word "duplicado" (duplicate).
>
>
>
> In case you never knew, this means not only they were first cousins, but
> first cousins in two different ways.
>
> If you think about it, that means they each shared all four of their
> grandparents. They had no ancestors other than what they shared.
>
> Talk about in-breeding.
>
>
>
> Who was this couple? It was the Capitão-mor of Angra. The highest military
> rank available.
>
> His name was Manuel Homem da Costa e Noronha Ponce de Leão.
>
>
>
> Find him in any Terceira nobility book to see his illustrious ancestry.
>
>
>
> One might wonder whether their children were born healthy. Well, I don't
> know all the facts yet, but I do know they had 10 children.
>
> Three possibly died young - at least I haven't yet noticed them listed as
> adults at marriage or as godparents.
>
> A few seemed to have average life spans of at least 60 years. Not yet
> sure of the rest.
>
>
>
> I do know they have many descendants today, including some of my cousins.
>
>
>
> Just think how this combined DNA might affect the Family Finder results.
>
>
>
> I just thought it was interesting.
>
>
>
> Doug da Rocha Holmes
> Sacramento, California
> Pico & Terceira Genealogist
> 916-550-1618
>
> www.dholmes.com
>
>
>
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