Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] João Afonso das Grotas Fundas

[JR]

More or less, Grotas Fundas, or a little bit more inland; but it is 
difficult terrain, and undeveloped, so few people lived beyond the actual 
neighbourhood. It is all hilly area and that's where they would go work 
their small parcels of land or the larger ones owned by the wealthy 
landowners. Nobody lived in the hills. There was a mill down below and you 
can still see the giant stone wheel mill. My grandmother and 
great-grandparents ran a mill, but closer to Ribeira Grande, the street on 
the western end, where another creek by the same name ran by. The beach 
area in Grotas Fundas can be treacherous if you don't watch for the tides. 
Otherwise it is like any other beach. But remember, the "sand" is all black 
volcanic grains, absorbs heat and gets quite hot in the sun. 

In this 
photo https://johnroias.smugmug.com/Sao-Miguel-trip-JuneJuly-2015/i-kGWCB2c 
you can see the cows in the hilly areas as you go the last street, called 
the Guiteria. 

In this 
photo https://johnroias.smugmug.com/Sao-Miguel-trip-JuneJuly-2015/i-7Gpfjnk 
, taken at Grotas Fundas at street level you see the hills the cover up 
Ribeira Quente. To get there, you have to climb the hills and wind your way 
towards those jutting hills. And well beyond those immediate hills is 
Povoacao. Although Furnas is in between, it is located more northward in 
God's country, as they say, the last frontier of Sao Miguel. 

In this image of Ribeira 
Quente https://johnroias.smugmug.com/Sao-Miguel-trip-JuneJuly-2015/i-jsf57Td 
you are looking west toward Ponta Garca and Vila Franca. But as you see, 
only the hill is visible, the same one you saw from the other side in 
Grotas Fundas.

JR

On Wednesday, September 2, 2015 at 12:49:08 AM UTC-4, Cheri Mello wrote:
>
> That "Ribeira Quente, limit of the freguesia de Ponta Garca" meant Grotas 
> Fundas? I thought it basically meant the edge of town. I have a lot of 
> ancestors from the "limit!"  Things that I learn from this list!
> Cheri
>
> Cheri Mello
> Listowner, Azores-Gen
> Researching: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das 
> Tainhas, Achada
>
> On Tue, Sep 1, 2015 at 9:14 PM, JR  wrote:
>
>> I will let people more knowledgeable about Joao Afonso discuss his 
>> history and story. 
>>
>> For now I can tell you that Grotas Fundas is a neighbourhood, even today, 
>> on the eastern border of the village of Ponta Garca. Because of the hills 
>> and mountains, the town of Ponta Garca ends there and borders hills 
>> surrounding Ribeira Quente. There is a very nice beach at the bottom that 
>> was actually part of the property of Dr, Agusto Botelho de Simas. It was 
>> his summer home. He was a well known and respected doctor in the 1950-80 
>> era, based in Vila Franca, now deceased. There is a bust of him in the main 
>> square honoring his life and work. The beach is now public with public 
>> access. From there you get fabulous views of the peninsulas jutting out 
>> into the ocean, east and west, and south is the ocean.. And you might even 
>> see whales or dolphins swimming by. Looking east is Ribeira Quente, but its 
>> view is blocked by a huge rolling hills, beautiful in their right. Looking 
>> west is the coastline leading to Vila Franca, easily visible, an 
>> outstanding view.
>>
>> The land is rich and suitable for farming and was covered by vineyards in 
>> times past, and I guess that's what made it so attractive to our ancestors. 
>> Apparently, other well known families from the upper class owned land 
>> there. There is a trail, still in use for hikers, that people took in the 
>> past, by foot and donkey from Grotas Fudas to Ribeira Quente. They were 
>> mostly cousins, farm workers and fisherfolk and exchanged produce and 
>> goods. You often read about ancestors that lived in Grotas Fundas or the 
>> place called "Ribeira Quente, limit de fraguesia de Ponta Garca." It was 
>> also the shortest way to Ribeira Quente and Povoacao. Otherwise, you have 
>> to go north, way up to the main road, where essentially you are on top of 
>> hill. There is a long, winding and steep road, called the Guiteria that 
>> starts at Grotas Fundas and makes it way up the main road. It is pastoral 
>> and you might encounter cows on the moo-ve! Sorry couldn't resist. At the 
>> top you will be rewarded with a vista of the whole of Ponta Garca and Vila 
>> Franca. Take your camera!
>>
>> JR
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tuesday, September 1, 2015 at 9:02:45 PM UTC-4, manita.morgado wrote:
>>>
>>> I would like the answer to that question too!   
>>>
>>> I have a few questions: 
>>>
>>> 1.  What is the story? 
>>>
>>> I tried to read the section on him in "Familias Antigas Povoação" but my 
>>> Portuguese is limited.  I only recognize words ...something about torture, 
>>> abandon, going to Rome to ask the Pope for forgiveness, walking to Santiago 
>>> de Compostela and building a hospital. 
>>>
>>> 2.  What is the controversy? 
>>>
>>> 3.  Is there further study being done on 

[AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Marriage record

[LM]

I am reading :

1641 wedding of Simao de Matos and Maria Falcon


Simao de Matos son of  Francisco Gonçalves and Isabel de Matos 

Maria Falcon daughter of Marao? Gonçalves Fonseca and Isabel de Nabais




On Monday, August 31, 2015 at 12:36:51 PM UTC-7, Ubirajara Jales de Lira 
wrote:
>
>
> http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SMG-PD-SAOJOSE-C-1630-1701/SMG-PD-SAOJOSE-C-1630-1701_item1/P23.html
>  
>
> Hello. 
>
> Does anybody read this marriage record? It's the last one, on the right 
> side. 
>
> Thanks 
>
> Ubirajara Jales de Lira 
>
>

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[AZORES-Genealogy] Joao Afonso das Grotas Fundas and the Counts of Benavente

['John Raposo' via Azores Genealogy]

João Afonso (de Pimentel) “das Grotas FundasDied 2 Sept 1512 NB:this is the 
work of several people including Rodrigo Rodrigues, Andrew Rapoza,George 
Pacheco, Diana cestodio Silva, in addition to those cited. NAME:He became known 
in St. Michael, Açores as "João Afonso das Grotas Fundas" [Frutuoso]. Frutuoso 
nevergives him the family name Pimentel nor does he ever make reference to 
arelationship to the Spanish Counts of Benevente.  This claim is made by his 
grandson JoãoAfonso, o Moço, of Faial da Terra, where he died on 16.4.1577.  On 
the cover of his will, in an old script, itsays that the said  João Afonso, o 
Moço descendesfrom the Condes de Benavente of Castile.    BIOGRAPHY:"The 
Pimentels and the Resendes families of the island of São Migueldescended from 
João Afonso de Pimentel who came with these names in the lastquarter of the 
15th century" [FamiliasAntigas da Povoação].(It was also suggested that he 
arrive in the middle of the 15th century [James Guill]."He settled in the place 
of Grotas Fundas, on the island of São Miguel, wherehe had a large family and 
house, by which he became well-known on the island asJoão Afonso das Grotas 
Fundas [Frutuoso]." "The origin of this JoãoAfonso is wrapped in some mystery; 
nevertheless, his 5th grandson [through adaughter of João Afonso], Padre Pedro 
Furtado Leite, outlined hisancestry in a letter in which he wrote that his 
mother was descended from JoãoAfonso who, in turn, was the descendant of the 
Counts of Benavente, of Spain.In truth, there are some nobiliaries that refer 
to a son of the third Count ofBenavente (there is a perfect coincidence of 
dates), of the name João Afonso,who left Spain, anddisappears from history. The 
third Count of Benavente, Alonso dePimentel, also known as the Count of 
Mayorga, was married to Dona Maria deQuinones y Toledo. The subsequent 
nobiliaries referred totheir son João Afonso de Pimentel [Familias]."No further 
details are given in Genealogiade los Condes y Duques de Benavente (at the 
Madrid Library), however. [J. Guill] Thisson would have been 60 to 70 years old 
when João Afonso das Grotas Fundas madehis will, His  great-grea-greatr 
grandson,Father Belchior Manuel de Resendes, in a letter, says that his 4th 
grandfather,João Afonso das Grotas Fundas was the son of a Count and exiled 
himself to S.Miguel for having committed a crime in Portugal.   "The Pimentels 
belong to one of the mostillustrious families of the Iberian peninsula and 
originate in Benavente, wherethey had a castle at the juncture of a gigantic 
triangular territory formed bythe lands of Leon, Asturias, and Galicia and 
bordered by the rivers Esla and Orbigo[Familias]." One Count built a hospital 
by the name ofNossa Senhora do Piedade to benefit the pilgrims traveling the 
Silver Route onthe way to Santiago de Compostela. The church in Ponta Garça 
that serves theGrotas Fundas area where João Afonso was the first settler, was 
also calledNossa Senhora do Piedade, thus further suggesting the connection 
between JoãoAfonso das Grotas Fundas and the Counts of Benavente. [Familias.]   
It may be this same João Afonso that ismentioned to have contributed 80 moios 
of wheat toward a program to directfresh water from the land of Gaspar de 
Bettancurt to Ponta Delgada becausebefore this time the residents of that town 
had to rely on well water (perhapsthe town's population was growing too large 
to sustain itself on the number ofwells then available) [Alverne]. João Afonso 
das Grotas Fundas was againcredited as being the earliest settler of Grotas 
Fundas at the very beginningof Ponta Garça's settlement. (It was also suggested 
that, given the isolationand difficult access to Grotas Fundas, it could be 
assumed that João Afonso dePimentel had a motive to flee to so remote a spot 
[J.Guill].) He made his willon 26 May 1511. In it he made his oldest son, João 
Afonso, and his son's wife,Catarina Manuel, the executors and ordered that a 
third of his lands be setaside to produce a benefit of 10,000 reis [system of 
money later replaced bycruzeiros] for the purpose of having three masses said 
one week a year inperpetuity; the first on Monday for his faith in God to be a 
blessing on hissoul; the second on Saturday in honor of the Peace of Christ and 
the last oneon Saturday in honor of "Nossa Senhora" with all her prayers 
[Vida]. [Alverne] Chronicas da Provincia de São JoãoEvangelista das Ilhas 
dos Açores[Familias]Familias Anitgas de Povoação[Frutuoso]Doutor Gaspar 
Frutuoso, Livro Quatro: Saudades da Terra[J. Guill]   Letter from Dr. James 
H. Guill, FEB 98[Vida]A Vida de Nossos Avós See also Miguel Figueiredo 
Corte-Real: Os Descendentes dos Condes de BenaventeRadicados in Açores Desde o 
Século XV.
John Miranda Raposo

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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Help with translation please. Very difficult.

[Margaret Vicente]

The child of eight days baptized March 7? 1659 son of one of the slaves by
the name of Maria of (belonging to) Barbara of Sao Goncalo (S. Goncalo is
the name of the area/place in S. Pedro) The Godfather was Sebastiao do Rego
son of Francisco Martins



On Wed, Sep 2, 2015 at 5:35 PM, Sandra Perez 
wrote:

> Sebastiao's birth--bottom right.  I think I see Goncalo Frz or Joao
> Goncalo Frz and maybe Barbara.
>
>
>
> .
> http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SMG-PD-SAOPEDRO-B-1643-1667/SMG-PD-SAOPEDRO-B-1643-1667_item1/P90.html
>
> --
> Sandra Perez
>
> --
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-- 
Margaret M Vicente

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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Faded Birth record

[Margaret Vicente]

Sean,

I read the Father's name as Antonio Dutra de Andrade and the Mother's is as
you wrote it Rosa Maria.

On Wed, Sep 2, 2015 at 8:09 PM, Sean Andrade 
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> This birth record is a little faded and having difficulty with the dad's
> name. Francisco on the right middle:
> http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/FAL-HT-CAPELO-B-1792-1805/FAL-HT-CAPELO-B-1792-1805_item1/P107.html
>
> The mother's name looks like Rosa Maria but having trouble with the dad's
> name.
>
> --
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>



-- 
Margaret M Vicente

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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] João Afonso das Grotas Fundas

[JR]

Yes that would be the same trail. I was afraid of that, notice the red 
warning at top, the trail is now closed. It seems heavy rains caused some 
areas to be overrun with mudslides, so the authorities closed it down until 
future notice. I was told you can still take the trail by a walkaround, but 
the authorities won't sanction it. There many other fine trails that will 
see on the site. I would take the Fazenda trail, or for longer hikes, the 
Nordeste trails.

JR


On Wednesday, September 2, 2015 at 6:08:49 PM UTC-4, manita.morgado wrote:
>
> Thank you KINDLY!
>
> This is VERY HELPFUL.
>
> I am DEFINITELY going now that I have such detailed instructions on how to 
> find it.
>
> I am going to try to do that hike.  I love hiking and I want to walk in 
> the footpath of our ancestors, so this is going to be particularly special 
> for me.
>
> Thank you for sharing your wonderful photos.
>
> Do you happen to know the exact name of the trail by chance?  Is it an 
> official trail?  Is it this one?
>
> http://trails.visitazores.com/en/trails-azores/sao-miguel/trilho-do-agriao
>
> Or do I just ask a local?
>
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 2, 2015 at 2:49 AM, JR  wrote:
>
>> More or less, Grotas Fundas, or a little bit more inland; but it is 
>> difficult terrain, and undeveloped, so few people lived beyond the actual 
>> neighbourhood. It is all hilly area and that's where they would go work 
>> their small parcels of land or the larger ones owned by the wealthy 
>> landowners. Nobody lived in the hills. There was a mill down below and you 
>> can still see the giant stone wheel mill. My grandmother and 
>> great-grandparents ran a mill, but closer to Ribeira Grande, the street on 
>> the western end, where another creek by the same name ran by. The beach 
>> area in Grotas Fundas can be treacherous if you don't watch for the tides. 
>> Otherwise it is like any other beach. But remember, the "sand" is all black 
>> volcanic grains, absorbs heat and gets quite hot in the sun. 
>>
>> In this photo 
>> https://johnroias.smugmug.com/Sao-Miguel-trip-JuneJuly-2015/i-kGWCB2c 
>> you can see the cows in the hilly areas as you go the last street, called 
>> the Guiteria. 
>>
>> In this photo 
>> https://johnroias.smugmug.com/Sao-Miguel-trip-JuneJuly-2015/i-7Gpfjnk , 
>> taken at Grotas Fundas at street level you see the hills the cover up 
>> Ribeira Quente. To get there, you have to climb the hills and wind your way 
>> towards those jutting hills. And well beyond those immediate hills is 
>> Povoacao. Although Furnas is in between, it is located more northward in 
>> God's country, as they say, the last frontier of Sao Miguel. 
>>
>> In this image of Ribeira Quente 
>> https://johnroias.smugmug.com/Sao-Miguel-trip-JuneJuly-2015/i-jsf57Td 
>> you are looking west toward Ponta Garca and Vila Franca. But as you see, 
>> only the hill is visible, the same one you saw from the other side in 
>> Grotas Fundas.
>>
>> JR
>>
>> On Wednesday, September 2, 2015 at 12:49:08 AM UTC-4, Cheri Mello wrote:
>>>
>>> That "Ribeira Quente, limit of the freguesia de Ponta Garca" meant 
>>> Grotas Fundas? I thought it basically meant the edge of town. I have a lot 
>>> of ancestors from the "limit!"  Things that I learn from this list!
>>> Cheri
>>>
>>> Cheri Mello
>>> Listowner, Azores-Gen
>>> Researching: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das 
>>> Tainhas, Achada
>>>
>>> On Tue, Sep 1, 2015 at 9:14 PM, JR  wrote:
>>>
 I will let people more knowledgeable about Joao Afonso discuss his 
 history and story. 

 For now I can tell you that Grotas Fundas is a neighbourhood, even 
 today, on the eastern border of the village of Ponta Garca. Because of the 
 hills and mountains, the town of Ponta Garca ends there and borders hills 
 surrounding Ribeira Quente. There is a very nice beach at the bottom that 
 was actually part of the property of Dr, Agusto Botelho de Simas. It was 
 his summer home. He was a well known and respected doctor in the 1950-80 
 era, based in Vila Franca, now deceased. There is a bust of him in the 
 main 
 square honoring his life and work. The beach is now public with public 
 access. From there you get fabulous views of the peninsulas jutting out 
 into the ocean, east and west, and south is the ocean.. And you might even 
 see whales or dolphins swimming by. Looking east is Ribeira Quente, but 
 its 
 view is blocked by a huge rolling hills, beautiful in their right. Looking 
 west is the coastline leading to Vila Franca, easily visible, an 
 outstanding view.

 The land is rich and suitable for farming and was covered by vineyards 
 in times past, and I guess that's what made it so attractive to our 
 ancestors. Apparently, other well known families from the upper class 
 owned 
 land there. There is a trail, still in use for hikers, that people took in 
 the past, by 

[AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Help with translation please. Very difficult.

[linda]

Hi Sandra,

This is what (I think) I see:

1 Em o [mismo] dia [?] era acima baptisei hua

2 creanca nada (= nacida) de outo dias, aquem [--] nome

3 Sebastiao filho digo filho de hua escrava

4 [---] nome [---] de [Barbara de Sao] goncalo [foi]

5 padrihno Sebastao [do rego?] fo de Frco [--]

6 [-] assignei, era ut sup

brackets around a word indicate a best guess;  brackets around dashes 
[--] mean I can't even guess


I hope others will look at the record too, and correct what errors and 
omissions I've made.

thanks,

Linda


On Wednesday, September 2, 2015 at 3:16:34 PM UTC-7, Sandra Perez wrote:

> Sebastiao's birth--bottom right.  I think I see Goncalo Frz or Joao 
> Goncalo Frz and maybe Barbara.
>
>
>
> .
> http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SMG-PD-SAOPEDRO-B-1643-1667/SMG-PD-SAOPEDRO-B-1643-1667_item1/P90.html
>
> -- 
> Sandra Perez
>

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[AZORES-Genealogy] Faded Birth record

[Sean Andrade]

Hi,

This birth record is a little faded and having difficulty with the dad's 
name. Francisco on the right 
middle: 
http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/FAL-HT-CAPELO-B-1792-1805/FAL-HT-CAPELO-B-1792-1805_item1/P107.html

The mother's name looks like Rosa Maria but having trouble with the dad's 
name.

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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Challenging Record - Translation Help needed

[Laura Flanagan]

http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SMG-PD-MOSTEIROS-B-1803-1826/SMG-PD-MOSTEIROS-B-1803-1826_item1/P171.html

It is the record on the bottom of the left page

On Thursday, September 3, 2015 at 12:29:43 AM UTC-4, Cheri Mello wrote:
>
> Can't read it either. Post the URL. Then I can adjust for my monitor, my 
> eyes, and my computer.
>
> Cheri Mello
> Listowner, Azores-Gen
> Researching: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das 
> Tainhas, Achada
>
> On Wed, Sep 2, 2015 at 6:35 PM, Laura Flanagan  > wrote:
>
>> I am researching what I believe to be a common ancestor between two 
>> people predicted to be 3rd cousins to me through dna testing.  
>>
>> For the life of me, I cannot read this record.  It is located in the 
>> Mosteiros, Sao Miguel baptism book for 1802-1826 at page 167, bottom of the 
>> page.  
>>
>> The index states it is the baptism record of Balbina, daughter of Manuel 
>> Pereira and Antonia Vicencia (unsure of correct spelling).  This is 
>> definitely the person I am looking for, as I have located the baptism 
>> records of all of her children, and they indicate maternal grandparents to 
>> be Manuel Pereira and Antonia Vicencia, of Bretanha.  
>>
>> This record seems to indicate mutliple parents and grandparents, and I 
>> cannot locate the date of birth.  The recording of this baptism doesn't 
>> make sense for the age I believe Balbina to be, if she were to be born near 
>> to this recording.  This would make Balbina only 14 at the time of the 
>> birth of her eldest child.  I guess it's possible, but I think I am missing 
>> something because I cannot read the nuansances of the record.  Is this an 
>> adoption?  I am stumped.
>>
>>
>>
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>
>

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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Help with translation please. Very difficult.

[Sandra Perez]

   Thank you so much.

On Wed, Sep 2, 2015 at 4:28 PM, Margaret Vicente 
wrote:

> The child of eight days baptized March 7? 1659 son of one of the slaves by
> the name of Maria of (belonging to) Barbara of Sao Goncalo (S. Goncalo is
> the name of the area/place in S. Pedro) The Godfather was Sebastiao do Rego
> son of Francisco Martins
>
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 2, 2015 at 5:35 PM, Sandra Perez 
> wrote:
>
>> Sebastiao's birth--bottom right.  I think I see Goncalo Frz or Joao
>> Goncalo Frz and maybe Barbara.
>>
>>
>>
>> .
>> http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SMG-PD-SAOPEDRO-B-1643-1667/SMG-PD-SAOPEDRO-B-1643-1667_item1/P90.html
>>
>> --
>> Sandra Perez
>>
>> --
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>
>
>
> --
> Margaret M Vicente
>
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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Help with translation please. Very difficult.

[Cheri Mello]

I'd guess the 7th too.

Slaves don't seem very common to me. Most of the population seemed to be
poor back then. Others who know the history better should probably start a
new thread and discuss that question there, as we are veering off topic
here from this translation.

Cheri

Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas,
Achada

On Wed, Sep 2, 2015 at 4:35 PM, Sandra Perez 
wrote:

>Thank you so much.
>
> On Wed, Sep 2, 2015 at 4:28 PM, Margaret Vicente <
> margaretvice...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> The child of eight days baptized March 7? 1659 son of one of the slaves
>> by the name of Maria of (belonging to) Barbara of Sao Goncalo (S. Goncalo
>> is the name of the area/place in S. Pedro) The Godfather was Sebastiao do
>> Rego son of Francisco Martins
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 2, 2015 at 5:35 PM, Sandra Perez 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Sebastiao's birth--bottom right.  I think I see Goncalo Frz or Joao
>>> Goncalo Frz and maybe Barbara.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> .
>>> http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SMG-PD-SAOPEDRO-B-1643-1667/SMG-PD-SAOPEDRO-B-1643-1667_item1/P90.html
>>>
>>> --
>>> Sandra Perez
>>>
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>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Margaret M Vicente
>>
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>
>
>
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[AZORES-Genealogy] 18th c. Marriage Records for N.S. da Conceição, Horta, Faial? // Cardoso Marques

[linda]

Hi all,

The parochial registers available online through the CCA for NS da 
Conceicao, Horta start in 1840.  But, reading the wikipedia article about 
the district ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concei%C3%A7%C3%A3o_(Horta ) 
suggests to me, given the age of the Church and settlement, that there 
should be older registers as well.  Can someone tell me if these exist (but 
are not online), never existed, or existed but are known to be lost?

Thanks-- I'm trying to locate the marriage record (located btwn Aug 1747 
and April 1751) for my 4xGGPs:

Francisco Cardoso Marques (b. circa 1695, Velas, SJ; d. 31 Mar 1770, Horta, 
Faial)  and his 2nd wife

Catharina Michaela de Vasconcellos (b. circa 1719, Angra**; d. 27 Oct 1759, 
Horta, Faial)  

parents of Manoel Caetano de Barcellos (b.10 April 1751, Horta, Faial; m. 
31 Oct 1805, Lajes, Terceira) my 3xGGF


I've gone thorough the records for the Matrix in Horta three times, closely 
checked the marriages in the Se at Angra, and in a last ditch effort, 
looked as best as I could through all the rest of the parish records for 
Faial in the date range in question (... and those of Madalena, Pico, 
too... just in case boats were involved...).  No luck.  I tried the UMINHO 
site for new leads without success as well.

Manoel's baptismal record explicitly states his legitimacy, so my best 
theory at this point is that they may have been married in the church of NS 
da Conceicao and that those records have since been lost.  If someone can 
confirm this, or perhaps point me in another direction, I'd be grateful.  

Also, if anyone can point me in the direction of further information about 
either Francisco or Catharina, I'd appreciate it too.  I've found online 
genealogies which include Francisco Cardoso Marques (1st wife = Isabel de 
Santo Antonio), but they are unreferenced.  I appreciate having the leads, 
but I want to confirm the information with reliable (or historic) sources.  

The parish record for Francisco's third marriage lists his second wife, 
Catharina, and her parents (bless the memory of that bureaucratic record 
keeping priest!), Aleixo da Silva and Maria do Rosario, but my first pass 
thorough the Angra baptismal records didn't yield any likely Catharinas or 
Michaelas*.  I'll go through the records again looking at the father's 
names instead of the children's, but I don't relish the task.  


many thanks to the group for any info or leads,

Linda


*Also, neither UMINHO nor the Angra marriage indices for the first half of 
the 18th c. provided any leads for Aleixo da Silva and Maria do Rosario, so 
that's probably another end of the line for me. :(

**unconfirmed but asserted on both Manoel's baptismal record and 
Francisco's 3rd marriage record


 

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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Help with translation please. Very difficult.

[linda]

Wonderful!  thanks :)

On Wednesday, September 2, 2015 at 4:28:30 PM UTC-7, Mara wrote:

> The child of eight days baptized March 7? 1659 son of one of the slaves by 
> the name of Maria of (belonging to) Barbara of Sao Goncalo (S. Goncalo is 
> the name of the area/place in S. Pedro) The Godfather was Sebastiao do Rego 
> son of Francisco Martins
>
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 2, 2015 at 5:35 PM, Sandra Perez  > wrote:
>
>> Sebastiao's birth--bottom right.  I think I see Goncalo Frz or Joao 
>> Goncalo Frz and maybe Barbara.
>>
>>
>>
>> .
>> http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SMG-PD-SAOPEDRO-B-1643-1667/SMG-PD-SAOPEDRO-B-1643-1667_item1/P90.html
>>
>> -- 
>> Sandra Perez
>>
>> -- 
>> For options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail 
>> (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at 
>> http://groups.google.com/group/Azores. Click in the blue area on the 
>> right that says "Join this group" and it will take you to "Edit my 
>> membership."
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>> email to azores+un...@googlegroups.com .
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>>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Margaret M Vicente
>

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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Joao Afonso das Grotas Fundas and the Counts of Benavente

[Manita M]

*This is VERY helpful and I appreciate that you have referenced the sources
and combined them all together into one tidy document.*

 this will be my last POST on this topic 

Somehow, I just can't let this go! * I am completely fascinated.  Am I on
the only one?  I am sure we have we have many descendants from my 13th
great grandfather in this google group alone.*

Here are my thoughts and questions:

*1.  Y DNA testing*

Now that we have Y DNA testing AND have knowledge of the DIRECT paternal
line of my/our mysterious 13th great grandfather ... could some of those
gentlemen simply not get tested?  Then of course we need to compare those Y
DNA results to the OFFICIAL direct paternal descendants of the Count of
Benavente?  Sounds so simple, but I am sure it isn't.  Maybe I am off my
rocker.
*Is there any special studies out there on this ancestor?*
I am thinking something like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHG_SBgQWAw

Yes, I realize that this is mtDNA and not Y DNA, but you get where I am
going with this.


*2.  What crime did he commit?*


*3.  Living in such a remote area (Grotas Fundas)*
Yes, I totally had the thought it was a rather remote spot to want to live
and reading the reference to it aligns to what I was thinking. Hmm.


*4.  Which count built a hospital by the name of "Nossa Senhora do Piedade"
along the Silver Route on the way to Santiago de Compostela?*

This fascinates me, as I have personally done 2 pilgrimages to SdC.  In
fact, I *might* be going back in November to lead a small group.


*5.  going to Rome and asking the Pope for forgiveness?*

I thought I had read that someone went to Rome to ask the Pope for
forgiveness.  Has anyone else seen a reference to that?  It could just be
me misunderstanding the Portuguese, but I'm curious if anyone recalls
reading such a thing.


*6.  Language spoken:*
This may appear to be an odd and maybe even a stupid question.  If this
count came from Spain, would he not be speaking Spanish or whatever the
dialect of that area of Spain is?  Or would it be normal for people at that
time to have spoken Portuguese and Spanish?  OR ... were there Spanish
speaking people in Sao Miguel who had to then learn to speak Portuguese in
the 15th century, BEFORE Spain invaded the Azores?  I know odd question,
but I am curious.


*7.  Miguel Figueiredo Corte-Real: Os Descendentes dos Condes de Benavente
Radicados in Acores Desde o Seculo XV*

Does anyone have a pdf of this book that they can share with me?


*8.  Spanish Nobility Documents*

There is reference in "Genealogia de los Condes y Duques de Benavente" that
the Count of Mayorga had a son by the same name and the dates line up to
my/our ancestor.  *Is there no further mention of this man anywhere else in
Spanish documents?*


9.  Anyone have *a pdf copy of "Genealogia de los Condes y Duques de
Benavente"?*










On Wed, Sep 2, 2015 at 11:48 AM, 'John Raposo' via Azores Genealogy <
azores@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> *Jo**ã**o Afonso (de Pimentel) **“**das Grotas Fundas*
> *Died 2 Sept 1512*
>
> NB: this is the work of several people including Rodrigo Rodrigues, Andrew
> Rapoza, George Pacheco, Diana cestodio Silva, in addition to those cited.
>
> NAME: He became known in St. Michael, Açores as "João Afonso das Grotas
> Fundas" [Frutuoso]. Frutuoso never gives him the family name Pimentel nor
> does he ever make reference to a relationship to the Spanish Counts of
> Benevente.  This claim is made by his grandson  João Afonso, o Moço, of
> Faial da Terra, where he died on 16.4.1577.  On the cover of his will, in
> an old script, it says that the said  João Afonso, o Moço descendes from
> the Condes de Benavente of Castile.
>
>
> BIOGRAPHY: "The Pimentels and the Resendes families of the island of São
> Miguel descended from João Afonso de Pimentel who came with these names in
> the last quarter of the 15th century" [*Familias** Antigas da Povoação**]*.
> (It was also suggested that he arrive in the middle of the 15th century [James
> Guill]. "He settled in the place of Grotas Fundas, on the island of São
> Miguel, where he had a large family and house, by which he became
> well-known on the island as João Afonso das Grotas Fundas [Frutuoso]." "The
> origin of this João Afonso is wrapped in some mystery; nevertheless, his
> 5th grandson [through a daughter of João Afonso], Padre Pedro Furtado
> Leite, outlined his ancestry in a letter in which he wrote that his
> mother was descended from João Afonso who, in turn, was the descendant of
> the Counts of Benavente, of Spain. In truth, there are some nobiliaries
> that refer to a son of the third Count of Benavente (there is a perfect
> coincidence of dates), of the name João Afonso, who left Spain, and
> disappears from history. The third Count of Benavente, Alonso de
> Pimentel, also known as the Count of Mayorga, was married to Dona Maria de
> Quinones y Toledo. The subsequent nobiliaries referred to their son João
> Afonso de Pimentel 

Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] João Afonso das Grotas Fundas

[Manita M]

Thank you KINDLY!

This is VERY HELPFUL.

I am DEFINITELY going now that I have such detailed instructions on how to
find it.

I am going to try to do that hike.  I love hiking and I want to walk in the
footpath of our ancestors, so this is going to be particularly special for
me.

Thank you for sharing your wonderful photos.

Do you happen to know the exact name of the trail by chance?  Is it an
official trail?  Is it this one?

http://trails.visitazores.com/en/trails-azores/sao-miguel/trilho-do-agriao

Or do I just ask a local?



On Wed, Sep 2, 2015 at 2:49 AM, JR  wrote:

> More or less, Grotas Fundas, or a little bit more inland; but it is
> difficult terrain, and undeveloped, so few people lived beyond the actual
> neighbourhood. It is all hilly area and that's where they would go work
> their small parcels of land or the larger ones owned by the wealthy
> landowners. Nobody lived in the hills. There was a mill down below and you
> can still see the giant stone wheel mill. My grandmother and
> great-grandparents ran a mill, but closer to Ribeira Grande, the street on
> the western end, where another creek by the same name ran by. The beach
> area in Grotas Fundas can be treacherous if you don't watch for the tides.
> Otherwise it is like any other beach. But remember, the "sand" is all black
> volcanic grains, absorbs heat and gets quite hot in the sun.
>
> In this photo
> https://johnroias.smugmug.com/Sao-Miguel-trip-JuneJuly-2015/i-kGWCB2c you
> can see the cows in the hilly areas as you go the last street, called the
> Guiteria.
>
> In this photo
> https://johnroias.smugmug.com/Sao-Miguel-trip-JuneJuly-2015/i-7Gpfjnk ,
> taken at Grotas Fundas at street level you see the hills the cover up
> Ribeira Quente. To get there, you have to climb the hills and wind your way
> towards those jutting hills. And well beyond those immediate hills is
> Povoacao. Although Furnas is in between, it is located more northward in
> God's country, as they say, the last frontier of Sao Miguel.
>
> In this image of Ribeira Quente
> https://johnroias.smugmug.com/Sao-Miguel-trip-JuneJuly-2015/i-jsf57Td you
> are looking west toward Ponta Garca and Vila Franca. But as you see, only
> the hill is visible, the same one you saw from the other side in Grotas
> Fundas.
>
> JR
>
> On Wednesday, September 2, 2015 at 12:49:08 AM UTC-4, Cheri Mello wrote:
>>
>> That "Ribeira Quente, limit of the freguesia de Ponta Garca" meant Grotas
>> Fundas? I thought it basically meant the edge of town. I have a lot of
>> ancestors from the "limit!"  Things that I learn from this list!
>> Cheri
>>
>> Cheri Mello
>> Listowner, Azores-Gen
>> Researching: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das
>> Tainhas, Achada
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 1, 2015 at 9:14 PM, JR  wrote:
>>
>>> I will let people more knowledgeable about Joao Afonso discuss his
>>> history and story.
>>>
>>> For now I can tell you that Grotas Fundas is a neighbourhood, even
>>> today, on the eastern border of the village of Ponta Garca. Because of the
>>> hills and mountains, the town of Ponta Garca ends there and borders hills
>>> surrounding Ribeira Quente. There is a very nice beach at the bottom that
>>> was actually part of the property of Dr, Agusto Botelho de Simas. It was
>>> his summer home. He was a well known and respected doctor in the 1950-80
>>> era, based in Vila Franca, now deceased. There is a bust of him in the main
>>> square honoring his life and work. The beach is now public with public
>>> access. From there you get fabulous views of the peninsulas jutting out
>>> into the ocean, east and west, and south is the ocean.. And you might even
>>> see whales or dolphins swimming by. Looking east is Ribeira Quente, but its
>>> view is blocked by a huge rolling hills, beautiful in their right. Looking
>>> west is the coastline leading to Vila Franca, easily visible, an
>>> outstanding view.
>>>
>>> The land is rich and suitable for farming and was covered by vineyards
>>> in times past, and I guess that's what made it so attractive to our
>>> ancestors. Apparently, other well known families from the upper class owned
>>> land there. There is a trail, still in use for hikers, that people took in
>>> the past, by foot and donkey from Grotas Fudas to Ribeira Quente. They were
>>> mostly cousins, farm workers and fisherfolk and exchanged produce and
>>> goods. You often read about ancestors that lived in Grotas Fundas or the
>>> place called "Ribeira Quente, limit de fraguesia de Ponta Garca." It was
>>> also the shortest way to Ribeira Quente and Povoacao. Otherwise, you have
>>> to go north, way up to the main road, where essentially you are on top of
>>> hill. There is a long, winding and steep road, called the Guiteria that
>>> starts at Grotas Fundas and makes it way up the main road. It is pastoral
>>> and you might encounter cows on the moo-ve! Sorry couldn't resist. At the
>>> top you will be rewarded with a vista of the 

[AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Marriage record

[Ubirajara Jales de Lira]

Thanks a lot, LM!

Ubirajara Jales de Lira.

On Wednesday, September 2, 2015 at 11:23:10 AM UTC-4, LM wrote:

> I am reading :
>
> 1641 wedding of Simao de Matos and Maria Falcon
>
>
> Simao de Matos son of  Francisco Gonçalves and Isabel de Matos 
>
> Maria Falcon daughter of Marao? Gonçalves Fonseca and Isabel de Nabais
>
>
>
>
> On Monday, August 31, 2015 at 12:36:51 PM UTC-7, Ubirajara Jales de Lira 
> wrote:
>>
>>
>> http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SMG-PD-SAOJOSE-C-1630-1701/SMG-PD-SAOJOSE-C-1630-1701_item1/P23.html
>>  
>>
>> Hello. 
>>
>> Does anybody read this marriage record? It's the last one, on the right 
>> side. 
>>
>> Thanks 
>>
>> Ubirajara Jales de Lira 
>>
>>

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[AZORES-Genealogy] Help with translation please. Very difficult.

[Sandra Perez]

Sebastiao's birth--bottom right.  I think I see Goncalo Frz or Joao Goncalo
Frz and maybe Barbara.



.
http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SMG-PD-SAOPEDRO-B-1643-1667/SMG-PD-SAOPEDRO-B-1643-1667_item1/P90.html

-- 
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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Bookstores in Sao Miguel

[Herb]

I picked up the entire set of Saudades da Terra about  20 years ago at Sol Mar 
for about one hundred dollars. It's worth checking there and could be less 
expensive. For many years now I have looked for RR entire set but was only able 
to buy volume 1 from a rare book dealer in London. The entire set will turn up 
one day and hopefully at a reasonable cost. 

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