Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Confirmations

[Mary Bordi]

On Saturday, February 13, 2016, George Medeiros 
wrote:

Does anyone know if the Bishops lived in the Azores during this period or
> were they coming from Portugal ?
>
>
I am only researching Sao Jorge. The documents often refer to the Diocese
of Angra. There would be a bishop there unless it was a time between
appointments.

I'm not sure if there was only the one diocese in the Azores--as I said,
I've only looked at the Sao Jorge documents.

I'm sure someone else will be able to quote a genuine source for you, but
that's my take on it. :)

Mary

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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Confirmations

[Cheri Mello]

Yes, there was and still is only 1 Diocese for the Azores and it has always
been in Angra.
Cheri

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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Confirmations

['John Raposo' via Azores Genealogy]

I have been following this discussion with great interest. Here is what I know 
(or think I know):
Angra is a very old Diocese and has had a resident Bishop (who was sometimes 
absent) since its creation. Traveling to the other 8 islands, before the modern 
age, by boat, across stormy seas was a real obstacle. Confirmations did not 
happen on an annual basis.
 It might be many years between pastoral visits when the Sacrament was 
administered.
My parents (who were from different churches in Bretanha) received confirmation 
on the same day in the church in Ajuda, which was not the parish church for 
either of them, and despite the fact that my mother was 3 years younger than my 
father. The Bishop had not visited in many, many years. Many adults were 
confirmed that day because they had been too young to be confirmed when the 
Bishop had last made a pastoral visit. And it would be several years before he 
made another visit.
Today things are different. Since then, fast boats and air transportation have 
made the Bishop's visits more routine. In addition, the Bishop has Vicars on 
each island who can administer the Sacrament in his absence and even the parish 
priest can be delegated as an extraordinary minister of the Sacrament, and can 
administer the Sacrament of Confirmation.
In my own experience in the Diocese of Fall River, the Sacrament used to be 
administered every other year by the Bishop. For the last several years, the 
Sacrament has been administered yearly, sometimes by the Bishop, sometimes by 
his vicar and sometimes by the pastor.
The age for reception of the Sacrament has varied over the years (in my 
lifetime) from 12 to 16 years old. The Roman church seems always to have been 
ambivalent about when this Sacrament should be confirmed. The Eastern rite has 
always been much less ambivalent: the Sacrament of Confirmation is conferred 
immediately following Baptism.
It has been an interesting discussion.
John Miranda Raposo


 

On Sunday, February 14, 2016 2:24 AM, Mary Bordi  
wrote:
 

 On Saturday, February 13, 2016, George Medeiros  
wrote:

Does anyone know if the Bishops lived in the Azores during this period or were 
they coming from Portugal ? 


I am only researching Sao Jorge. The documents often refer to the Diocese of 
Angra. There would be a bishop there unless it was a time between appointments. 
I'm not sure if there was only the one diocese in the Azores--as I said, I've 
only looked at the Sao Jorge documents. 
I'm sure someone else will be able to quote a genuine source for you, but 
that's my take on it. :)
Mary-- 
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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Confirmations

[Joanne Mercier]

Ok, looking at what George has supplied us in another post here is what the 
Code of Canon Law 1917 stated on the subject of Sponsors for Baptism and 
Confirmation:

BAPTISM
609. In order that one may licitly act as sponsor, he must: 
1. be fourteen years of age, unless for a just reason the minister admits 
younger ones; 
2. he must not be under excommunication for a notorious crime, nor excluded 
from legal actions, nor suffer from infamy of law, even though no sentence was 
pronounced against him in the ecclesiastical court, nor must he be under an 
interdict, or otherwise a public criminal, or disgraced by infamy of fact; 
3. he must know the rudiments of the faith; 
4. he must not be a novice or professed member in any religious organization, 
unless there is no other to act as sponsor and permission is granted by at 
least the local superior; 
5. he must not be in sacred orders, unless he has the express permission of his 
own Ordinary to act as sponsor. (Canon 766.) 

610. In doubtful cases as to whether one can validly or licitly be admitted as 
sponsor, the pastor should, if time permits, consult the Ordinary. (Canon 767.) 


CONFIRMATION
CHAPTER IV. The Sponsors. 
636. By a most ancient custom the Church requires a sponsor at Confirmation, if 
one can be had. (Canon 793.) 

637. The sponsor should not stand for more than two, except the minister for a 
just reason allow him to stand for more. No candidate for Confirmation should 
have more than one sponsor. (Canon 794.) 

638. In order that one may validly act as sponsor, he must: 
1. be confirmed himself, have the use of reason and the intention to act as 
sponsor; 
2. not belong to an heretical or schismatic sect, nor be under any of the 
penalties spoken of in Canon 765, n. 2, by a declaratory or condemnatory 
sentence; 
3. not be the father, mother of, or married to, the one confirmed; 
4. be designated by the one to be confirmed, or by his parents, guardians, or 
in their default or refusal to designate a sponsor, the minister or the pastor 
may designate him. 
5. physically touch either in person or through a proxy the one confirmed in 
the very act of Confirmation. (Canon 795.) 

639. The requirements for licit sponsorship are: 
1. he should not be the sponsor of Baptism, unless there is a good reason which 
is left to the judgment of the minister of Confirmation, or unless Confirmation 
is given immediately after Baptism; 
2. he should be of the same sex as the one confirmed, unless the minister 
allows an exception in particular cases and for good reasons; 
3. he must have the other requisites mentioned for Baptism in Canon 766. ( 
Canon 796. ) 

Up until the 1917 code the church had collections of law that were changed and 
added to by every Pope. The first set-in-soft-cement set of rules was the 1917 
code, which was then revised in 1983. Roman law is more flexible than 
English/American law so it is always open to interpretation and that's why it 
can vary from diocese to diocese and even from priest to priest. 

I hope this helps — and thanks George for finding the document I was looking 
for!

Joanne Grota Mercier

> On Feb 9, 2016, at 2:53 PM, George Medeiros  wrote:
> 
> The Roman Catholic  Church has hundreds of Canon laws and Canon lawyers. Like 
> the secular legal system not all laws are understood clearly and when there 
> are questions about what one can and can not do within the legal system one 
> contacts a lawyer. When in question, if I understand it correctly, most 
> clerics are not  church lawyers and they would pose their questions to the 
> Bishop's Office and  Canon lawyers may or may not be consulted. 
> 
> The question about Canon law in 1600's is a good one and we do have to be 
> careful about applying today's standards to a earlier time. Just in the last 
> 50 years the Catholic Church has made many changes, like for example allowing 
> annulments in marriage,and just look at what Pope Francis is trying to get 
> the Cardinals and Bishops to look at in regards to contemporary social issues 
> like divorce and remarriage. Some issues are left to the  judgement of the 
> local pastor who has the job of listening to each person's individual 
> situation. Thus I am sure those of us from a catholic background have seen 
> different decisions made in regards to similar situations. George
> 
>  
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
> On Feb 9, 2016, at 10:44 AM, "\"E\" Sharp"  > wrote:
> 
>> I don't know about Canon law, etc. but 15 years ago when my last grandson 
>> was born his parents wanted his older brother 12 and sister 14 to be the 
>> godparents and the priest at the church gave them a emphatic "no."  They had 
>> to be at least 16.
>> 
>> "E"
>> 
>> 
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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Confirmations

["E" Sharp]

Amen.

"E"
Ash Wednesday 2016

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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Confirmations

[Liz Migliori]

So does number 5 mean one cannot be a priest and be a sponsor?  

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 10, 2016, at 6:37 AM, Joanne Mercier  wrote:
> 
> Ok, looking at what George has supplied us in another post here is what the 
> Code of Canon Law 1917 stated on the subject of Sponsors for Baptism and 
> Confirmation:
> 
> BAPTISM
> 609. In order that one may licitly act as sponsor, he must: 
> 1. be fourteen years of age, unless for a just reason the minister admits 
> younger ones; 
> 2. he must not be under excommunication for a notorious crime, nor excluded 
> from legal actions, nor suffer from infamy of law, even though no sentence 
> was pronounced against him in the ecclesiastical court, nor must he be under 
> an interdict, or otherwise a public criminal, or disgraced by infamy of fact; 
> 3. he must know the rudiments of the faith; 
> 4. he must not be a novice or professed member in any religious organization, 
> unless there is no other to act as sponsor and permission is granted by at 
> least the local superior; 
> 5. he must not be in sacred orders, unless he has the express permission of 
> his own Ordinary to act as sponsor. (Canon 766.) 
> 
> 610. In doubtful cases as to whether one can validly or licitly be admitted 
> as sponsor, the pastor should, if time permits, consult the Ordinary. (Canon 
> 767.) 
> 
> 
> CONFIRMATION
> CHAPTER IV. The Sponsors. 
> 636. By a most ancient custom the Church requires a sponsor at Confirmation, 
> if one can be had. (Canon 793.) 
> 
> 637. The sponsor should not stand for more than two, except the minister for 
> a just reason allow him to stand for more. No candidate for Confirmation 
> should have more than one sponsor. (Canon 794.) 
> 
> 638. In order that one may validly act as sponsor, he must: 
> 1. be confirmed himself, have the use of reason and the intention to act as 
> sponsor; 
> 2. not belong to an heretical or schismatic sect, nor be under any of the 
> penalties spoken of in Canon 765, n. 2, by a declaratory or condemnatory 
> sentence; 
> 3. not be the father, mother of, or married to, the one confirmed; 
> 4. be designated by the one to be confirmed, or by his parents, guardians, or 
> in their default or refusal to designate a sponsor, the minister or the 
> pastor may designate him. 
> 5. physically touch either in person or through a proxy the one confirmed in 
> the very act of Confirmation. (Canon 795.) 
> 
> 639. The requirements for licit sponsorship are: 
> 1. he should not be the sponsor of Baptism, unless there is a good reason 
> which is left to the judgment of the minister of Confirmation, or unless 
> Confirmation is given immediately after Baptism; 
> 2. he should be of the same sex as the one confirmed, unless the minister 
> allows an exception in particular cases and for good reasons; 
> 3. he must have the other requisites mentioned for Baptism in Canon 766. ( 
> Canon 796. ) 
> 
> Up until the 1917 code the church had collections of law that were changed 
> and added to by every Pope. The first set-in-soft-cement set of rules was the 
> 1917 code, which was then revised in 1983. Roman law is more flexible than 
> English/American law so it is always open to interpretation and that's why it 
> can vary from diocese to diocese and even from priest to priest. 
> 
> I hope this helps — and thanks George for finding the document I was looking 
> for!
> 
> Joanne Grota Mercier
> 
>> On Feb 9, 2016, at 2:53 PM, George Medeiros  wrote:
>> 
>> The Roman Catholic  Church has hundreds of Canon laws and Canon lawyers. 
>> Like the secular legal system not all laws are understood clearly and when 
>> there are questions about what one can and can not do within the legal 
>> system one contacts a lawyer. When in question, if I understand it 
>> correctly, most clerics are not  church lawyers and they would pose their 
>> questions to the Bishop's Office and  Canon lawyers may or may not be 
>> consulted. 
>> 
>> The question about Canon law in 1600's is a good one and we do have to be 
>> careful about applying today's standards to a earlier time. Just in the last 
>> 50 years the Catholic Church has made many changes, like for example 
>> allowing annulments in marriage,and just look at what Pope Francis is trying 
>> to get the Cardinals and Bishops to look at in regards to contemporary 
>> social issues like divorce and remarriage. Some issues are left to the  
>> judgement of the local pastor who has the job of listening to each person's 
>> individual situation. Thus I am sure those of us from a catholic background 
>> have seen different decisions made in regards to similar situations. George
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Sent from my iPad
>> 
>>> On Feb 9, 2016, at 10:44 AM, "\"E\" Sharp"  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I don't know about Canon law, etc. but 15 years ago when my last grandson 
>>> was born his parents wanted his older brother 12 and sister 14 to be the 
>>> 

Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Confirmations

[Joanne Mercier]

It meant that they had to have permission from their Bishop or superior (in the 
case of Jesuits, Franciscans, etc) for a good reason. 

> On Feb 10, 2016, at 10:44 AM, Liz Migliori  wrote:
> 
> So does number 5 mean one cannot be a priest and be a sponsor?  
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Feb 10, 2016, at 6:37 AM, Joanne Mercier  > wrote:
> 
>> Ok, looking at what George has supplied us in another post here is what the 
>> Code of Canon Law 1917 stated on the subject of Sponsors for Baptism and 
>> Confirmation:
>> 
>> BAPTISM
>> 609. In order that one may licitly act as sponsor, he must: 
>> 1. be fourteen years of age, unless for a just reason the minister admits 
>> younger ones; 
>> 2. he must not be under excommunication for a notorious crime, nor excluded 
>> from legal actions, nor suffer from infamy of law, even though no sentence 
>> was pronounced against him in the ecclesiastical court, nor must he be under 
>> an interdict, or otherwise a public criminal, or disgraced by infamy of 
>> fact; 
>> 3. he must know the rudiments of the faith; 
>> 4. he must not be a novice or professed member in any religious 
>> organization, unless there is no other to act as sponsor and permission is 
>> granted by at least the local superior; 
>> 5. he must not be in sacred orders, unless he has the express permission of 
>> his own Ordinary to act as sponsor. (Canon 766.) 
>> 
>> 610. In doubtful cases as to whether one can validly or licitly be admitted 
>> as sponsor, the pastor should, if time permits, consult the Ordinary. (Canon 
>> 767.) 
>> 
>> 
>> CONFIRMATION
>> CHAPTER IV. The Sponsors. 
>> 636. By a most ancient custom the Church requires a sponsor at Confirmation, 
>> if one can be had. (Canon 793.) 
>> 
>> 637. The sponsor should not stand for more than two, except the minister for 
>> a just reason allow him to stand for more. No candidate for Confirmation 
>> should have more than one sponsor. (Canon 794.) 
>> 
>> 638. In order that one may validly act as sponsor, he must: 
>> 1. be confirmed himself, have the use of reason and the intention to act as 
>> sponsor; 
>> 2. not belong to an heretical or schismatic sect, nor be under any of the 
>> penalties spoken of in Canon 765, n. 2, by a declaratory or condemnatory 
>> sentence; 
>> 3. not be the father, mother of, or married to, the one confirmed; 
>> 4. be designated by the one to be confirmed, or by his parents, guardians, 
>> or in their default or refusal to designate a sponsor, the minister or the 
>> pastor may designate him. 
>> 5. physically touch either in person or through a proxy the one confirmed in 
>> the very act of Confirmation. (Canon 795.) 
>> 
>> 639. The requirements for licit sponsorship are: 
>> 1. he should not be the sponsor of Baptism, unless there is a good reason 
>> which is left to the judgment of the minister of Confirmation, or unless 
>> Confirmation is given immediately after Baptism; 
>> 2. he should be of the same sex as the one confirmed, unless the minister 
>> allows an exception in particular cases and for good reasons; 
>> 3. he must have the other requisites mentioned for Baptism in Canon 766. ( 
>> Canon 796. ) 
>> 
>> Up until the 1917 code the church had collections of law that were changed 
>> and added to by every Pope. The first set-in-soft-cement set of rules was 
>> the 1917 code, which was then revised in 1983. Roman law is more flexible 
>> than English/American law so it is always open to interpretation and that's 
>> why it can vary from diocese to diocese and even from priest to priest. 
>> 
>> I hope this helps — and thanks George for finding the document I was looking 
>> for!
>> 
>> Joanne Grota Mercier
>> 
>>> On Feb 9, 2016, at 2:53 PM, George Medeiros >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> The Roman Catholic  Church has hundreds of Canon laws and Canon lawyers. 
>>> Like the secular legal system not all laws are understood clearly and when 
>>> there are questions about what one can and can not do within the legal 
>>> system one contacts a lawyer. When in question, if I understand it 
>>> correctly, most clerics are not  church lawyers and they would pose their 
>>> questions to the Bishop's Office and  Canon lawyers may or may not be 
>>> consulted. 
>>> 
>>> The question about Canon law in 1600's is a good one and we do have to be 
>>> careful about applying today's standards to a earlier time. Just in the 
>>> last 50 years the Catholic Church has made many changes, like for example 
>>> allowing annulments in marriage,and just look at what Pope Francis is 
>>> trying to get the Cardinals and Bishops to look at in regards to 
>>> contemporary social issues like divorce and remarriage. Some issues are 
>>> left to the  judgement of the local pastor who has the job of listening to 
>>> each person's individual situation. Thus I am sure those of us from a 
>>> 

Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Confirmations

[Cheri Mello]

And I was my nephew's sponsor 5 or so years ago at his confirmation. So we
can look up these laws all we want and I'm sure for every law, one of us
can find the exception!

Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas,
Achada

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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Confirmations

[Cheri Mello]

But what did Canon law say in 1600?

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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Confirmations

[George Medeiros]

Canon law may state what the expectation of the church may be in regards to 
procedures etc. but than there is the knowledge the cleric and/or layperson may 
have about that law. Even when a person is well informed that doesn't mean the 
law will be practiced or followed in every case. Ideals are one thing but what 
people practice is another. George

Sent from my iPad

On Feb 9, 2016, at 7:28 AM, Margaret Vicente  wrote:

> The Church has come a long way and has gone through many reforms.  Not to 
> contradict what has been said I it is important to note Priests do not fudge 
> anything as they are heavily audited.  Secondly Canon law allows for two 
> Godparents.  
> 
>  Title BAPTISM (Cann. 849-878) Chapter IV 
> 
> SPONSORS
> 
> Can.  873 There is to be only one male sponsor or one female sponsor or one 
> of each.
> Can.  874 §1.
> 2/ have completed the sixteenth year of age, unless the diocesan bishop has 
> established another age, or the pastor or minister has granted an exception 
> for a just cause.
> 
> 
> 
> Quoting: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/_P2Y.HTM
> 
> 
> 
> Confirmation:
> 
> CHAPTER IV.
> 
> SPONSORS
> 
> Can.  892 Insofar as possible, there is to be a sponsor for the person to be 
> confirmed; the sponsor is to take care that the confirmed person behaves as a 
> true witness of Christ and faithfully fulfills the obligations inherent in 
> this sacrament.
> 
> Can.  893 §1. To perform the function of sponsor, a person must fulfill the 
> conditions mentioned in ⇒ can. 874.
> 
> §2. It is desirable to choose as sponsor the one who undertook the same 
> function in baptism.
> 
> 
> 
> Quoting:http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P34.HTM
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers.
> 
> Margaret
> 
> 
> 
> On Tue, Feb 9, 2016 at 2:47 AM, 'Susan Murphy' via Azores Genealogy 
>  wrote:
> You are most probably right Joanne!  When my ten year old was the godfather 
> to our youngest, the godmother was my own aunt, who was past middle age:)  
> Her godmother passed away in 1995 but she still have her brother as her 
> godfather!  Thanks for sharing your knowledge and insight!
> 
> Susan
> 
> On Feb 8, 2016, at 12:30 PM, Joanne Mercier  wrote:
> 
>> It is possible that a priest would have fudged the age requirement as long 
>> as the teens were already Confirmed - that requirement weighs most against a 
>> year or 2 age differential. Then there are other priests who use liberal 
>> doses of "pastoral judgement" for any number of personal reasons and their 
>> actions can cause some confusion when trying to track down or understand 
>> this kind of information. In the case of your older son, for example, if the 
>> godmother for your younger son met all the church requirements then the 
>> priest allowed, without explanation, your older son to "stand in" and may or 
>> may not have included him in the official records because, again by law, 
>> only 1 godparent is really required at a baptism (a little known fact in 2 
>> are considered traditional and rarely discouraged). I won't judge the 
>> resulting action but it might have helped you understand the process better 
>> had he explained what he was doing at the time. 
>> 
>> Just so you know, this is the area of Catholic Church I work in so I am very 
>> well versed in it. If I don't know an answer regarding church records I at 
>> least know where to look it up or who to ask for clarification. When I 
>> retire I might try that rainy day project and look closer at the godparents 
>> of my ancestors - might be fun!
>> 
>> Joanne Grota Mercier
>> 
>>> On Feb 8, 2016, at 1:29 PM, 'Susan Murphy' via Azores Genealogy 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I believe you are right but on just a personal note on our family..two 
>>> of our siblings ages 14 and 15 were godparents to one of my sons in 1968, 
>>> my cousin age 15 was godmother to my oldest in 1966, and our oldest son 
>>> aged 10, was godfather to our youngest in 1977. These were in three 
>>> different parishes in California. There was no mention of any problem with 
>>> their ages at the baptisms.
>>> 
>>> It would be interesting to look at our Azorean records as we could figure 
>>> this out many times if we have extracted the records of the siblings of the 
>>> parents as they were so often the godparents.one of those rainy day 
>>> projects, LOL.
>>> 
>>> Susan Vargas Murphy 
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>> On Feb 8, 2016, at 8:12 AM, Joanne Mercier  wrote:
>>> 
 According the Roman Catholic Code of Canon Law the age is 16 unless a 
 bishop establishes it otherwise. This has been in effect for centuries and 
 remains so today. 
 
> On Feb 7, 2016, at 10:24 PM, Sme  wrote:
> 
> Hello.
> 
> Does anyone know or have a good guess as to what age "children" were able 
> to act as godparents in a baptism in the 

Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Confirmations

[Margaret Vicente]

The Church has come a long way and has gone through many reforms.  Not to
contradict what has been said I it is important to note Priests* do not
fudge* anything as they are heavily audited.  Secondly Canon law allows for
two Godparents.

* Title BAPTISM (Cann. 849-878) Chapter IV *

SPONSORS

*Can.  873* There is to be only one male sponsor or one female sponsor *or
one of each.*
*Can.  874 §1*.

2/ have completed the sixteenth year of age, *unless the diocesan bishop
has established another age*, or the pastor or minister has granted an
exception for a just cause.


Quoting: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/_P2Y.HTM


*Confirmation:*

CHAPTER IV.

SPONSORS

Can.  892 Insofar as possible, there is to be a sponsor for the person to
be confirmed; the sponsor is to take care that the confirmed person behaves
as a true witness of Christ and faithfully fulfills the obligations
inherent in this sacrament.

Can.  893 §1. To perform the function of sponsor, a person must fulfill the
conditions *mentioned in ⇒
 can. 874.*

§2. It is desirable to choose as sponsor the one who undertook the same
function in baptism.


Quoting:http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P34.HTM


Cheers.

Margaret


On Tue, Feb 9, 2016 at 2:47 AM, 'Susan Murphy' via Azores Genealogy <
azores@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> You are most probably right Joanne!  When my ten year old was the
> godfather to our youngest, the godmother was my own aunt, who was past
> middle age:)  Her godmother passed away in 1995 but she still have her
> brother as her godfather!  Thanks for sharing your knowledge and insight!
>
> Susan
>
> On Feb 8, 2016, at 12:30 PM, Joanne Mercier 
> wrote:
>
> It is possible that a priest would have fudged the age requirement as long
> as the teens were already Confirmed - that requirement weighs most against
> a year or 2 age differential. Then there are other priests who use liberal
> doses of "pastoral judgement" for any number of personal reasons and their
> actions can cause some confusion when trying to track down or understand
> this kind of information. In the case of your older son, for example, if
> the godmother for your younger son met all the church requirements then the
> priest allowed, without explanation, your older son to "stand in" and may
> or may not have included him in the official records because, again by law,
> only 1 godparent is really required at a baptism (a little known fact in 2
> are considered traditional and rarely discouraged). I won't judge the
> resulting action but it might have helped you understand the process better
> had he explained what he was doing at the time.
>
> Just so you know, this is the area of Catholic Church I work in so I am
> very well versed in it. If I don't know an answer regarding church records
> I at least know where to look it up or who to ask for clarification. When I
> retire I might try that rainy day project and look closer at the godparents
> of my ancestors - might be fun!
>
> Joanne Grota Mercier
>
> On Feb 8, 2016, at 1:29 PM, 'Susan Murphy' via Azores Genealogy <
> azores@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>
> I believe you are right but on just a personal note on our family..two
> of our siblings ages 14 and 15 were godparents to one of my sons in 1968,
> my cousin age 15 was godmother to my oldest in 1966, and our oldest son
> aged 10, was godfather to our youngest in 1977. These were in three
> different parishes in California. There was no mention of any problem with
> their ages at the baptisms.
>
> It would be interesting to look at our Azorean records as we could figure
> this out many times if we have extracted the records of the siblings of the
> parents as they were so often the godparents.one of those rainy day
> projects, LOL.
>
> Susan Vargas Murphy
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Feb 8, 2016, at 8:12 AM, Joanne Mercier 
> wrote:
>
> According the Roman Catholic Code of Canon Law the age is 16 unless a
> bishop establishes it otherwise. This has been in effect for centuries and
> remains so today.
>
> On Feb 7, 2016, at 10:24 PM, Sme  wrote:
>
> Hello.
>
> Does anyone know or have a good guess as to what age "children" were able
> to act as godparents in a baptism in the 1600s and up?
>
> Thank you.
> Suzanne
>
> --
> For options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail
> (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/Azores. Click in the blue area on the
> right that says "Join this group" and it will take you to "Edit my
> membership."
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>

Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Confirmations

[J]

It would have been 16, Cheri. Has been since the Canon was written down
after the Council of Trent. I'll double check that tomorrow since I'm
working tonight.

On Tuesday, February 9, 2016, Cheri Mello  wrote:

> But what did Canon law say in 1600?
>
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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Confirmations

["E" Sharp]

I don't know about Canon law, etc. but 15 years ago when my last grandson
was born his parents wanted his older brother 12 and sister 14 to be the
godparents and the priest at the church gave them a emphatic "no."  They
had to be at least 16.

"E"

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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Confirmations

[Margaret Vicente]

Cheri,

Since Christianity branched out from Judaism the Church has always had its
Laws.

I'm not versed on this but I googled your question and here's what
Wikipedia says:

The period of canonical history known as the *Jus Novum* ("new law") or *middle
period* covers the time from Gratian
 to the Council of Trent
 (mid-12th century–16th
century.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_law_(Catholic_Church)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gratian



On Tue, Feb 9, 2016 at 5:10 PM, J  wrote:

> It would have been 16, Cheri. Has been since the Canon was written down
> after the Council of Trent. I'll double check that tomorrow since I'm
> working tonight.
>
>
> On Tuesday, February 9, 2016, Cheri Mello  wrote:
>
>> But what did Canon law say in 1600?
>>
>> --
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>> right that says "Join this group" and it will take you to "Edit my
>> membership."
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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Confirmations

[George Medeiros]

The Roman Catholic  Church has hundreds of Canon laws and Canon lawyers. Like 
the secular legal system not all laws are understood clearly and when there are 
questions about what one can and can not do within the legal system one 
contacts a lawyer. When in question, if I understand it correctly, most clerics 
are not  church lawyers and they would pose their questions to the Bishop's 
Office and  Canon lawyers may or may not be consulted. 

The question about Canon law in 1600's is a good one and we do have to be 
careful about applying today's standards to a earlier time. Just in the last 50 
years the Catholic Church has made many changes, like for example allowing 
annulments in marriage,and just look at what Pope Francis is trying to get the 
Cardinals and Bishops to look at in regards to contemporary social issues like 
divorce and remarriage. Some issues are left to the  judgement of the local 
pastor who has the job of listening to each person's individual situation. Thus 
I am sure those of us from a catholic background have seen different decisions 
made in regards to similar situations. George

 

Sent from my iPad

On Feb 9, 2016, at 10:44 AM, "\"E\" Sharp"  wrote:

> I don't know about Canon law, etc. but 15 years ago when my last grandson was 
> born his parents wanted his older brother 12 and sister 14 to be the 
> godparents and the priest at the church gave them a emphatic "no."  They had 
> to be at least 16.
> 
> "E"
> 
> -- 
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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Confirmations

[Cheri Mello]

I know I've seen kids in the records too - under the age of 16. I don't
remember the time period or which ancestor though.
Cheri

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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Confirmations

[Joanne Mercier]

According the Roman Catholic Code of Canon Law the age is 16 unless a bishop 
establishes it otherwise. This has been in effect for centuries and remains so 
today. 

> On Feb 7, 2016, at 10:24 PM, Sme  wrote:
> 
> Hello.
> 
> Does anyone know or have a good guess as to what age "children" were able to 
> act as godparents in a baptism in the 1600s and up?
> 
> Thank you.
> Suzanne
> 
> -- 
> For options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail 
> (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at 
> http://groups.google.com/group/Azores 
> . Click in the blue area on the right 
> that says "Join this group" and it will take you to "Edit my membership."
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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Confirmations

['Susan Murphy' via Azores Genealogy]

You are most probably right Joanne!  When my ten year old was the godfather to 
our youngest, the godmother was my own aunt, who was past middle age:)  Her 
godmother passed away in 1995 but she still have her brother as her godfather!  
Thanks for sharing your knowledge and insight!

Susan

On Feb 8, 2016, at 12:30 PM, Joanne Mercier  wrote:

> It is possible that a priest would have fudged the age requirement as long as 
> the teens were already Confirmed - that requirement weighs most against a 
> year or 2 age differential. Then there are other priests who use liberal 
> doses of "pastoral judgement" for any number of personal reasons and their 
> actions can cause some confusion when trying to track down or understand this 
> kind of information. In the case of your older son, for example, if the 
> godmother for your younger son met all the church requirements then the 
> priest allowed, without explanation, your older son to "stand in" and may or 
> may not have included him in the official records because, again by law, only 
> 1 godparent is really required at a baptism (a little known fact in 2 are 
> considered traditional and rarely discouraged). I won't judge the resulting 
> action but it might have helped you understand the process better had he 
> explained what he was doing at the time. 
> 
> Just so you know, this is the area of Catholic Church I work in so I am very 
> well versed in it. If I don't know an answer regarding church records I at 
> least know where to look it up or who to ask for clarification. When I retire 
> I might try that rainy day project and look closer at the godparents of my 
> ancestors - might be fun!
> 
> Joanne Grota Mercier
> 
>> On Feb 8, 2016, at 1:29 PM, 'Susan Murphy' via Azores Genealogy 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> I believe you are right but on just a personal note on our family..two 
>> of our siblings ages 14 and 15 were godparents to one of my sons in 1968, my 
>> cousin age 15 was godmother to my oldest in 1966, and our oldest son aged 
>> 10, was godfather to our youngest in 1977. These were in three different 
>> parishes in California. There was no mention of any problem with their ages 
>> at the baptisms.
>> 
>> It would be interesting to look at our Azorean records as we could figure 
>> this out many times if we have extracted the records of the siblings of the 
>> parents as they were so often the godparents.one of those rainy day 
>> projects, LOL.
>> 
>> Susan Vargas Murphy 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> On Feb 8, 2016, at 8:12 AM, Joanne Mercier  wrote:
>> 
>>> According the Roman Catholic Code of Canon Law the age is 16 unless a 
>>> bishop establishes it otherwise. This has been in effect for centuries and 
>>> remains so today. 
>>> 
 On Feb 7, 2016, at 10:24 PM, Sme  wrote:
 
 Hello.
 
 Does anyone know or have a good guess as to what age "children" were able 
 to act as godparents in a baptism in the 1600s and up?
 
 Thank you.
 Suzanne
 
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>>> 
>>> 
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>> 
>> 
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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Confirmations

[Margaret Vicente]

In my own records one child was 9 years old.  An older brother 9 years old
of the first marriage was Godfather of his step sister, In more current
times, there is the minimum requirement, the Godparent had to be
Crismado/Confirmed (Crisma/Confirmation) and this takes place around 11 -
12 years of age.

Hope this helps,

On Mon, Feb 8, 2016 at 11:12 AM, Joanne Mercier 
wrote:

> According the Roman Catholic Code of Canon Law the age is 16 unless a
> bishop establishes it otherwise. This has been in effect for centuries and
> remains so today.
>
> On Feb 7, 2016, at 10:24 PM, Sme  wrote:
>
> Hello.
>
> Does anyone know or have a good guess as to what age "children" were able
> to act as godparents in a baptism in the 1600s and up?
>
> Thank you.
> Suzanne
>
> --
> For options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail
> (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/Azores. Click in the blue area on the
> right that says "Join this group" and it will take you to "Edit my
> membership."
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>
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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Confirmations

['Susan Murphy' via Azores Genealogy]

I believe you are right but on just a personal note on our family..two of 
our siblings ages 14 and 15 were godparents to one of my sons in 1968, my 
cousin age 15 was godmother to my oldest in 1966, and our oldest son aged 10, 
was godfather to our youngest in 1977. These were in three different parishes 
in California. There was no mention of any problem with their ages at the 
baptisms.

It would be interesting to look at our Azorean records as we could figure this 
out many times if we have extracted the records of the siblings of the parents 
as they were so often the godparents.one of those rainy day projects, LOL.

Susan Vargas Murphy 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 8, 2016, at 8:12 AM, Joanne Mercier  wrote:
> 
> According the Roman Catholic Code of Canon Law the age is 16 unless a bishop 
> establishes it otherwise. This has been in effect for centuries and remains 
> so today. 
> 
>> On Feb 7, 2016, at 10:24 PM, Sme  wrote:
>> 
>> Hello.
>> 
>> Does anyone know or have a good guess as to what age "children" were able to 
>> act as godparents in a baptism in the 1600s and up?
>> 
>> Thank you.
>> Suzanne
>> 
>> -- 
>> For options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail 
>> (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at 
>> http://groups.google.com/group/Azores. Click in the blue area on the right 
>> that says "Join this group" and it will take you to "Edit my membership."
>> --- 
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>> email to azores+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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> 
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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Confirmations

[Joanne Mercier]

It is possible that a priest would have fudged the age requirement as long as 
the teens were already Confirmed - that requirement weighs most against a year 
or 2 age differential. Then there are other priests who use liberal doses of 
"pastoral judgement" for any number of personal reasons and their actions can 
cause some confusion when trying to track down or understand this kind of 
information. In the case of your older son, for example, if the godmother for 
your younger son met all the church requirements then the priest allowed, 
without explanation, your older son to "stand in" and may or may not have 
included him in the official records because, again by law, only 1 godparent is 
really required at a baptism (a little known fact in 2 are considered 
traditional and rarely discouraged). I won't judge the resulting action but it 
might have helped you understand the process better had he explained what he 
was doing at the time. 

Just so you know, this is the area of Catholic Church I work in so I am very 
well versed in it. If I don't know an answer regarding church records I at 
least know where to look it up or who to ask for clarification. When I retire I 
might try that rainy day project and look closer at the godparents of my 
ancestors - might be fun!

Joanne Grota Mercier

> On Feb 8, 2016, at 1:29 PM, 'Susan Murphy' via Azores Genealogy 
>  wrote:
> 
> I believe you are right but on just a personal note on our family..two of 
> our siblings ages 14 and 15 were godparents to one of my sons in 1968, my 
> cousin age 15 was godmother to my oldest in 1966, and our oldest son aged 10, 
> was godfather to our youngest in 1977. These were in three different parishes 
> in California. There was no mention of any problem with their ages at the 
> baptisms.
> 
> It would be interesting to look at our Azorean records as we could figure 
> this out many times if we have extracted the records of the siblings of the 
> parents as they were so often the godparents.one of those rainy day 
> projects, LOL.
> 
> Susan Vargas Murphy 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Feb 8, 2016, at 8:12 AM, Joanne Mercier  > wrote:
> 
>> According the Roman Catholic Code of Canon Law the age is 16 unless a bishop 
>> establishes it otherwise. This has been in effect for centuries and remains 
>> so today. 
>> 
>>> On Feb 7, 2016, at 10:24 PM, Sme >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hello.
>>> 
>>> Does anyone know or have a good guess as to what age "children" were able 
>>> to act as godparents in a baptism in the 1600s and up?
>>> 
>>> Thank you.
>>> Suzanne
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> For options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail 
>>> (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at 
>>> http://groups.google.com/group/Azores 
>>> . Click in the blue area on the 
>>> right that says "Join this group" and it will take you to "Edit my 
>>> membership."
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>>> email to azores+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com 
>>> .
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>>> .
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
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[AZORES-Genealogy] Confirmations

[Sme]

Hello.

Does anyone know or have a good guess as to what age "children" were able
to act as godparents in a baptism in the 1600s and up?

Thank you.
Suzanne

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